January 23, 2025 • 46 mins
Today on On The Front Foot, Bryan Waddle and Jeremy Coney were joined by former Black Caps coach John Bracewell to pay tribute to the amazing career of Ravi Ashwin.
He also offers some thoughts on the challenges faced by New Zealand’s spinners, and former Black Cap Paul Wiseman delivers a positive analysis of our Under-19 players and the successes at the National championships.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
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Speaker 1 (00:35):
On the Front Foot with Brian Ronnell and Jeremy Cody,
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Speaker 2 (00:45):
This week the legacy of Ravi Ashwin attributed to the
Indian spinning as does he retire as one of the
games great as we wait for the champions Trophy and
other test matches played on a pitch used previously, we
don't know how many times, but it does little to
promote the emains of the test game at a time
when some of the administrators are planning alterations. Like the
(01:07):
taylor who's dealing with my new trousers. I almost got
the impression that he was thinking of adjusting me rather
than the pants. That's no open season for you, can't
you either?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
No, you're looking good ones your socks.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
The socks are a bit short, but never mind, pets,
you're still growing.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, very hard to wear them. And John Bracewall has
joined us, one of our greatest spin bowlers, and he's
going to give us reflection on Ravi Ashvin Brace's Happy
new Year to you. I haven't seen you for about
four years.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
No, but remarkably what you look him down so weller
than I do.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Oh, I can change that pretty rapidly, I can assure you.
On the front foot. Talking about Ravi Ashton, an Indian
writer called him the man who redefined the Indian game
and in the end he read the lines after being
overlooked and jumping before he was pushed. Perhaps there's one
commentator put it he was probably frustrated with the lack
(02:15):
of pictures offering spinner's assistance. We don't really know, but
one hundred and six Test matches, eighth highest wicket taker
in the game, fifth in the all time list of spinners,
five hundred and thirty seven wickets at twenty three graces,
does he end the game as one of the greats.
Speaker 6 (02:37):
Without doubt? I mean, I think he changed the game.
I think he took out a lot of the woke
talk out of the game. I think his IQ was
second to none in terms of understanding what he had
to do when bowling.
Speaker 7 (02:58):
On certain services.
Speaker 6 (03:00):
The only thing that surprised me is that he always
got a shock when he was sitting on the bench
and wasn't playing and the Indians preferred somebody else on
the as they were playing on And I could kind
of understand his frustration to a certain extent because he
set out a number of Tests and yet he's still
(03:21):
got five hundred Test wickets. I was thinking about, you
know where this discussion would go, and when I say, iq,
I can never remember ravish Ashwyn beating the bat by
yards by massive spin. He spun the ball enough to
beat the bat or enough to catch the edge. And
(03:44):
what that indicates to me was he had the intellect
to understand the pace that needed to be bold. So
rather than trying to celebrate this is me to big spinner,
he actually said, well, what if this is going to
turn three feet, how do I get it to turn
(04:04):
four and a half inches or two and a half
inches to catch the edge? Which means that I either
find the right pace for the surface or I take
pace off in the air in order to be able
to do that as well. So he could work off
the air and he could work off the surface and
to me that sets him apart from so many other bowlers.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah, Jerry, he was an innovator too, wasn't he. I
mean that's what braceis is alluding to to some extent,
isn't he.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
Yeah, he is, get a brace. Great, great day for
lawns down here and picked and I can tell you
now looks it seemed. It seemed to me the interesting
part of Ashwin to me, he saw spin bowling kind
of as a laboratory. You know. He kind of tried
to discover sorts and then put them into action.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
It wasn't so much as a spinner.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Particularly, You've spoken about that already, but it was the
approach that he took to pushing the boundary of what
was possible to do with the ball, do you know
what I mean?
Speaker 4 (05:14):
It was angles and lengths, It was using the crease.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
It was different types of flights and where the ball
and then the risk position and where it left, where
the ball came under the fingers, over the fingers, front
of the fingers, all that kind of stuff. Can you
just tell us anything about that? As a person, did
you do those sorts of things? Are always experimenting? Because
(05:40):
I can remember in a test at Eden Park, you
developed a different kind of gather and you were jumping
more than you had before.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
I mean, just a general.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Comment about that as a laboratory and working things out
for yourself.
Speaker 7 (05:58):
You're right about him, not necessarily about me.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
I mean, I mean we were. We played in a
mirror was reasonably risk averse, mainly because our game was
so much based around our medium pace game and the
sort of the wicket.
Speaker 7 (06:12):
So we played on.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
But I do remember thinking that in order to.
Speaker 7 (06:18):
Survive better, I need to bowl better to left handers.
Speaker 6 (06:22):
And because I had quite an orthodox action and a
reasonably long delivery stride, I used to get too far
out on the crease coming around the wicket to left handers,
which meant that I was negating a lot of the
spin that I that I could get, and also I
was exaggerating the angle. So what I did was I
(06:44):
spent probably six months bowling at John Reid in the nets,
learning to bowl and getting feedback from him, who was
a good player of spin bowling, both from bowling over
the wicket and what that felt like, and if I
bowled wider of the crease over the wicket, what did that?
(07:06):
What did What was the results of that and also
coming around and I kind of discovered that if I
can get in closer to the stunts, he found it
more difficult to play. So I had to develop that
jump in order to bring my back my front foot
back to mid crease, which negated the angle to a
certain extent, got me closer to the stunts, and that
(07:27):
worked for some for some time. But the thing about
Ashvind is that he did it. He developed all these
different deliveries with a straight arm. Now, not the Dora,
but what I'm saying about the you know, the woke
(07:50):
mentality that we tended to have during the nineties and
through probably too through to twenty ten, as we allowed
a lot of guys to get away with doucers and
things like that because the world of cricket would too
afraid to suggest that it may have actually come illegally.
(08:13):
He developed a technique which was slightly more front on
than traditional off spinners, which allowed them to be able
to bowl those deliveries with a straight arm and without question.
His action was never called into question. And that's kind
of the thing I like about Rabi Ashram over everybody else.
(08:35):
There was never any question about how he delivered those balls.
There's always the mystery of how did you have the
courage to be able to do that? And I suppose
twenty twenty Cricket helped that. I mean, I remember one
of his great quotes was twenty twenty cricket is about
six well constructed bad bulls. Nutshell.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
The fact you talk about how he developed those skills
and you just instanced your bowling to John Reid, how
much of what you did as a bowler and what
he would have done as a bowler is about your
own endeavors rather than help from other people. Did you
get the encouragement and help and skills of a lot
(09:23):
of other people or did you have to experiment yourself?
Speaker 6 (09:27):
Well, we were kind of owner train of drivers in
those days, weren't we. You know, if you had a playmate,
then it could help, especially if you had somebody who
was equally there for you as you were for them.
And so you're getting that mutual feedback almost that query theory,
but in a more natural way. And John Reid, you know,
(09:49):
was naturally a coach, and he was very much a
mentor to me as a coach, So we used to
spend a lot of time thinking about these sorts of
things and then going in and going, well, let's try it.
And I became quite a good bowler at left tenders
later in my career because of that. But it had
the rest of the time, you just got along the
practice and you bowlt at somebody for ten minutes, then
(10:11):
somebody said, you know, last round, and everybody tried to
hit you for six to finish the net, and that
was kind of your learning experience. And you know so,
but nowadays you know you have as a professional, you've
got basically eight hours a day every day. So therefore
(10:31):
you are you can't just go and bowl for two
hours without thinking about it, thinking about the game and
how it breaks down, and you get so much more
information that surely it's creating an environment where people do
grow a lot faster than perhaps we did, and I
think that is the case.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Race. It's interesting you talk about the nets and bowling
and the nets as a spinner. Most of our first
class sides have a batting and a bowling coach. But
my impression is the bowling coach tend to be either.
They're former seamers mainly that maybe right, I don't know,
(11:14):
but they're not former spin bowlers like yourself, And I
just wonder. I know both seamers and spinners project the
ball to the batsman, but I sense there are quite
essential differences, you know, in the gather, in the release,
in the angle perhaps of the run up slightly.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
We know the length of the run up is usually different.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
What are the differences about a spin coach if we
talk about that. I mean, I don't think we have
a spin coach for the New Zealand side unless we
go overseas. Ozzie do in Vittori, England do in Patel.
We use rung and a Harath and Mushtarak when we're overseas,
But that's generally where we see spin playing a bigger
(11:59):
role in the tour, and I just wonder why not
in New Zealand. Maybe we could investigate if it's not
turning and being sympathetic half the surface, maybe we could
investigate flight more. I don't know what are your thoughts
around that. Should we have a bowling coach who's a spinner?
Speaker 7 (12:18):
Yeah, well, I think we have Paul Wiseman, I think
is the national spin bowling coach.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Yeah he is.
Speaker 6 (12:24):
So his job is to communicate with the national coaches
and the national bowling coaches. And I assume, and I
don't know this, but I assume that a big part
of that is having one national program for spin So
how are we developing spin across the board from the
(12:47):
young person who walks in and says, I want to
be like to a first class bowling program for spinners,
you know, so professional bowling program for spin bowlers as well.
So that's that's men's and boys and women and men.
So I assume that he runs that program. I'm not
(13:11):
one hundredbstent sure if he does, but I assume he
runs that program. One of the things that kind of
concerned me when I returned back to New Zealand after
a long time away was that the number of our
spin bowlers were actually reluctant to bowl in the nets.
They preferred to go out and bowler to cone and
(13:33):
feel comfortable bowling at a cone. Well, a cone's never
going to hit you for six cone's never going to
sweep a ball that you want to actually test out
with it. It is difficult to actually sleep if I
bolted at this pace. You know, It's almost an avoidance thing.
And I think that's come about from the fact that
(13:55):
as soon as the spinner comes on in the nets.
When with a lot of our nets and a lot
of our cricketers been pace based, is that they basically
just go and try and whack the spinners. So what
are you looking for when you're actually looking for talent
in spin bowlers in a net session? And I look
(14:16):
for guys who get hit in the air at a
round about stomach height all the time into the nets
as opposed to hit out of the nets. And that
indicates to me that that person is beating the guy
between before it pitches and also after it pitches, So
(14:38):
he's beaten them in that sort of like two meter
space away from the bat.
Speaker 7 (14:45):
So he's either beating them with flight or he's beating
them off the surface because he's.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
Mishitting the ball. No one deliberately kind of hits the
ball at stomach height, you know, waist height under the covers.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Is that what a spin bowler has to do nowadays,
which is probably a little bit different when you were
preparing for first class cricket and for Test match cricket.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
The odd.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Now he has to be adept at either all three
versions of the game. Now, Test od I T twenty
or specialist, or he's going to have a bag full
of variations that he can carry and drop his hand
into it and pull out one for the next game.
And that to me seems to be the preparation plans
for many of our spinners. Is that going to be
(15:31):
an encouraging thing for spinners?
Speaker 6 (15:33):
Well, most guys who end up getting through to the
national national national program the men's or women's international side
basically have had a feeling good grounding at domestic level
in all three forms. Would you agree? No, one sort
of comes through doesn't play in all three forms. Yep.
So they generally play in those or have had a
(15:56):
good experience in all three forms at formats of the
game to get to that to get to that point
where they get selected. The difficulty is is having the
backing enough cricket and also enough consistent success to feel
confident and wanted in your unit as well?
Speaker 7 (16:18):
You know, So are all our spinners wanted or are
they just sometimes needed?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Well?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
I think I think we know the answer to that.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
We've got people like Patel, for example, who has he
played a Test match in New Zealand. He's only really
needed in Asia to be really honest, and we don't
see many of them.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
Really.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
We play four seamers and we've always been a seam
based attack, perhaps because of our climate and our history,
and you know, we grow grass pretty well and it
also provides us with a point of difference from other
countries to a here and so you know, but we
obviously also play you know, many tests away, almost as
(17:04):
many as home. I would have thought most times, you know,
I've been thinking for years, Brace, we maybe we should
have a little plan if there was one to prepare
one or two venues around New Zealand where there is
decent sunshine ours and we set about preparing a pitch
(17:28):
or two perhaps in the block and for Brian, get
it as near to the middle as you can. So
the boundary sizes are similar both sides. And you know,
we could not what not bunts and burners. I'm not
suggesting that, but I'm suggesting ones that will assist spin
(17:50):
because it's not only for the bowlers, Brace, it's for
the keepers, it's for the it's for the men fielding
and close, you know, the slips, the batpad, the pad bat,
it's the men and the you know, catching a short cover.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
You know, there's quite a lot you can learn as
a captain, for example, practicing captaining spin.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
I think we would get great benefits if we could
do that.
Speaker 6 (18:17):
It's it's as important to the batter as well, Jeremy. Yeah,
a number of times we actually send our batters away
to go to sweep school in India because they don't
get enough decent spin bowling or we can't find spin bowling.
Weik gets to New Zealand. How ridiculous is that.
Speaker 7 (18:36):
Yeah, so they go India to learn how.
Speaker 6 (18:40):
To bat and face spin twenty four hours of the day.
It just it kind of doesn't make sense that we've
got these beautiful indoor grass centers now around the country
that we're not developing these these programs that says, this
is just as much for batters as it is for bowlers,
(19:04):
because the art of weighing spin is it's actually and
it's probably the greatest feedback that we used to get
when we went to the subcontinent, and the subcontinent batters
would just say, well, you actually just don't watch the
ball well enough, you know, kind of because we didn't
really have to, so you know, whereas they actually learn
(19:27):
to watch the ball.
Speaker 7 (19:28):
And I remember when Bert Suttlet said to me that
he could see the seam on the ball and he
was about he was Floods's age at that stage.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
God still seeing it, still see it, and he.
Speaker 6 (19:42):
Could see the seam on the ball. Now, that is
one of the arts of batting, is one that learns
skill of watching closely and the laziness of not watching,
you know, vaguely watching a round thing coming at you.
And that's the difference between good batters and and and
(20:04):
poor batteries and great batters and and potentially great betters.
Is that ability to be able to pick the ball
up and understand what it's going to do off the surface,
and then study it and get better at it. So
it's not just the bowling thing. It's a batting thing
(20:25):
as well.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
You give yourself time brace you've earned some time as
a batsman, and that's the difference between defending or attacking. Yeah,
and if you can see it in the air rotating
coming down to you. I didn't learn that skill until
Turner spoke to me when we went to Pakistan in
eighty four. My head normally just start to split immediately,
(20:50):
you know, just watching the ball that hard.
Speaker 6 (20:54):
Yeah, And I think somebody like Glenn, who found a
lot of things quite natural, found it quite difficult to
deal with people who didn't find those things quite natural.
And it was quite interesting when he did become a
coach and he kind of understands stood that started to
get to understand the mortality of different people and the
(21:14):
reason why they weren't as good as him. Caine's another
one who's you know, his ability. Everyone says he judges
links so much better than everybody else. He bes link
up quicker than anybody else. But when you watch Cain practice,
here's an extraordinarily good ball watcher. And you can see
(21:35):
guys who do that, and then you can see guys
who stop watching the ball and then they estimate where
it's going to pitch. The are the guys I love bowling.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
To coming out all of that of what you and
Jeremy have just been talking about, race that the wanted
and needed scenario you're talking about. We've also got to
have captains who've got the courage to bowl spin bowlers.
I sense that Ben Stokes is happy to bowl spinners
and give them opportunities early. We seem reluctant to give
(22:05):
spin bowlers the opportunity to get the experience in greater success,
and it might count against the confidence of those bowlers
as well.
Speaker 6 (22:15):
Yeah, I think you get that though. I mean, let's
have a look at the last fifteen years or thirteen years.
Let's say Tim Salvey's reign. What was that fifteen years. Yeah,
we were pretty blessed with three guys that kind of
didn't need to go past to a lot of extent,
and he could rotate those and then you had somebody
(22:38):
like de grand Holme or somebody like that who could
actually fill that gap and stop the game for a
period while they rested. You know. So they had a
pretty good rotation system and they had some guys who
were pretty skilled at what they did, and so it's
(22:58):
fudged the numbers to a certain extent. Now, when we
had Daniel Vittori prior to that, you know, he was
Stephen Bleming's go to for a lot of a lot
of the time I need a wicket, I'll go to Steep,
I'll go to Daniel. So during that era, but he
ended up, you know, Daniel just ended up bowling too
(23:20):
many opens, so he was almost you know, he got fatigued.
So he flattened out. He was always best to be bowled,
and in spells of seven and eight he became quite
predictable when those spells became half a session to a session.
And so therefore your strike radism is great.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
If there's one thing you could do in terms of
developing spinners, now, what would be the key point for
you in terms of how we develop our spinners.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
I'd play them on bigger grounds at underage cricket. There
are a lot of kids turn up at underage cricket
and they want to bowl spin. They may not be made.
One of the reasons maybe they're not strong enough the bulk.
But they play on tea spoon grounds and they get
bullied and they become disillusioned, and everybody goes with fostering
(24:17):
spin look at us. But they play on something where
you can miss out of six, play on grounds where
you can't hit boundaries at ease, and then you will
start to see batsmanship evolved, not bully ship, and you'll
see spinners come into their own in terms of their
learning because they're not getting just belted out of the attack.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
For those people who are listening who might have kids,
which is what you're sort of talking a bit about
there who wish to be a spinner. Let me ask
you just a couple of questions about about a youngster
learning to bowl spin. Would you go for the revs
first or accuracy?
Speaker 6 (24:58):
Yeah, it's a really interesting one because it's I remember
as a kid watching a video and I think it
was run by Martin Horton where he interviewed Into carleb
into carb Allen, who's a leg spin violence, and he
asked him that exact question, and into carb Alum said,
(25:22):
I will go for accuracy because I'll stay on and
I have control of the game. And then another time
he was talking to and I can't remember who was, Oh,
it may have been Ashley Mallett, and Ashley Mallett said
to the same question, you know, the first thing I'd
teach a kid to do is I'll teach him how
(25:44):
to spin the ball and spin the ball hard, and
then as he grows in confidence, he will learn to
control that. But he won't get that spin back if
he just concentrates on line and length and staying on.
And so I went with that philosophy one because it
was a finger spinner and it made sense to me,
(26:05):
and it suited my mentality, and I kind ofunderstood that
the leg spinner may be slightly different.
Speaker 7 (26:11):
So the difference between the wrist spinner, who has a
stronger action and therefore can.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
Get that spin a little bit easier, and the finger spinner,
who ends up just being a roller, and the accuracy
between that. And I think left hand left armors and
right arms are slightly different as well, just with the angles.
But I'd certainly think with off spin in particular, you
need to be able to give the ball a rip
(26:40):
to make a difference.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
What about the length of run up?
Speaker 6 (26:44):
Yeah, I think a run up. To me, a run
up was just about rhythm. I mean, by the end
of my career, I don't even think I measured out
on runner. I mean I could just feel I was
in the right place and it got my body into
position for the pace that I wanted to bowl, uh
(27:08):
and the balance I needed at the crease. If you
look at somebody like Nathan Lyon, you know he walks
for what probably near on seven or eight meters and
then trots two yards and bolts and gets a lot
of revs on the wall chained warm. You know, basically
(27:32):
walked in but had a great turn of his shoulders
and rotation, but was really big through the shoulders, so
there's a bit of body shape involved in it, and
understanding it's not a this is what I do to
(27:53):
tell just wanders in, doesn't it, and just off a
few paces, you know, I think that half of a
satin has run up is observing the batsman, so he
almost stalks him, as you would say, like Groucho Marx
the waitress. He's almost got that sort of look about him.
(28:15):
I'm watching this intently. It suits your body type and
what rhythm that you need to get from it, and
it's kind of all coaching is about understanding the individual's
personality as well. It's not about imposing a technique. It's
not about imposing a theory. It's about getting to know
(28:37):
the person. So you're coaching the whole person, how he thinks,
how he behaves, how he sees the game of cricket.
Is he an optimist or a pessimist. You can't impose
optimism on a pessimist, but there is a position for
a pessimist in game of cricket. Generally it is called
open the batting's interesting braces.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Thank you very much for your time. We look forward
to perhaps another call from you at some stage.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, thanks Bank, Thanks mate, Brian Waddell, Jeremy Coney on
the front foot.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, great to have Brace's along. We haven't had him
on the program previously, Jerry, but he certainly adds an
understanding of spin bowling, and spinner's probably something that you
understand and us lesser cricketing brains don't really think about
those things that often, So it was lovely to hear
(29:36):
him just articulate that from a spin boler's point of view.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
Yeah, and he's got plenty more to tell us too,
I think, and and our and our followers to Wadds,
he's he's had to go through that sort of that
whole process himself, really coaching himself to be really honest,
and then as a coach later on coaching people.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
So he's got a lot. He's got a good story
and it's and it's good to listen to it.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
I personally, I can't wait for spinners to start in
the this match because I think the game really comes
alive when you've got different fields and captaincy you see
involved as well, and batsman attacking and all the whole range.
Of things, I think, and then the overrate improves all
those kinds of things. I think it's a very nice
(30:27):
part of test cricket. So I think there are things
we can still talk to him about actually, like the
New Zealand Pathway.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
We should talk to him about that as well. So
I hope to get him again on the front foot
with Waddle and Cody.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Another Spinboller and the aforementioned Paul Wiseman, who was spoken
about by John Bracewell. He's the director of talent identification
at the under nineteen level and he's been watching the
under nineteenth recently. Auckland retained that title after a week
of quality cricket at Lincoln for that development phase. Wellington
(31:02):
led into the final round but lost narrowly to Canterbury,
while Auckland, after a loss against Wellington in round one,
mustered the consistency needed in tournament play to secure the
title again over Northern Districts and Wellington. It's a non
World Cup year but still an important stage of the
careers of the young players, and Paul Wiseman joins us
(31:24):
to just tell us about how successful the under nineteen
tournament was.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 7 (31:32):
I think.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
I don't think it was ever a non successful Under
nineteen National tournament because you know, we produced some pretty
amazing facilities for these guys down here. They get to
play on first class, which is basically on love the
outfields and untill laid on for them. So if they
can't get something out of that, then there's something wrong,
(31:54):
and I think there's a lot going right in that space.
This year we changed it a little bit. Normally it's
just white ball formats. This year we're introduced a three
day game to the tournament, and we played that on
a used wicket, So we played the first three one
day games on one pitch and then we stayed on
the same pitch and played a three day game, hoping
(32:17):
to bring spin and keepers in closing fields and cataincy
and batting against spin and all that sort of thing
into play. So from that perspective, and they have two
really good type finishes, that was a real success from
our point of view.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, well, that's encouraging that that is being done too,
because it then becomes not about the points and who
wins the title, but then you see players in different
situations which normally you might not see.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Look, we've been looking over this
for a while and there's been a slow and steady
decline and the amount of Red Bull cricket played it
at school level and I understand the reasons for that,
but the skills and the tactical awareness of these players,
whilst it's really good when you talk about the too
short formats of the game, there's got the naive when
(33:05):
it comes to Red Bull cricket. So we have two
two day games in the under seventeens and we have
one in one rep well, one three day game in
under nineteens. We're hoping to have the nearest neighbor as well,
but budget not in the way of that. So it
would have been nice to have a home and away
and then they would have had two three day games.
(33:27):
And the way we've looked at it is that every
second year in a World Cup year, it's going to
be white ball only because that's what the World Cup's about.
But it sort of means that our best seventeams tend
to be in the under nineteens at under eighteen level,
so they should get at least one set of two
day games in seventeens or at least one sentence a
(33:50):
three day game in the under nineteen. So just what
it also means is the ems that we're bringing these
players down don't just focus solely on white balls. They've
actually got to train with these guys leading into it
in the red ball and they tend to have, you know,
in house games or nearest neighbor games and things like that.
So just making sure that we're keeping the red ball
(34:11):
alive because at the moment on the world scene it's
I think it's flourishing looking at the crowds that are
coming in. So we just want to make sure, you know,
we keep that rolling on through our age group and
prepared the better for when they start playing first class cricket.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, is there a balance there that you want to
or do you have an emphasis on one type of
cricket over the other, white wall over red ball, because
part of what you want to do is get New
Zealand's emerging test match talent as well, don't you one.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
We've also introduced what's called the men's Development Squad, which
is the group that kind of sits between age group
and a contracted player that can that player that can
get a little bit lost in club lands they've had
their under ninety experience, but not quite making a contracted
player in their EMA because it's pretty it's pretty tough
(35:03):
to get a contract these days. You don't just walk
out of those things and straight into a contract too often.
So we've created that space where we have trainings with
those players during the winter and then we play against
all the m A eight teams to really try to
promote those players from within, and that's been really successful.
There's been a lot of players come out of that
(35:25):
mean's development program that now I do have contracts, and
I think it's helped some of the head coaches around
the country to look outside of their sixteen nine contract
list at the talent that's coming through. So I think
that's been largely successful at the moment, and those coaches
are really engaged and getting those players that aren't contracted
(35:48):
still training in their environments, which is you know, that's
everything we're looking for. So it's really good.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, I wouldn't expect you to name names, but do
you see talent there that you judge as of now
could be test match players or ODI players internationally for
New Zealand and they need the extra work and opportunities
that the game can give them one hundred.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
The way it kind of works out is every second
year we have an Under nineteen World Cup team. Out
of that boarding fifteen man squad tends to be eighty
percent will go on and play first class cricket and
about thirty percent and become black Caps. That's sort of
the way it's it's run.
Speaker 5 (36:35):
So it would be.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Unlikely that someone that comes that we have an under
nineteen national tournament and is not future black Caps in there.
So that's always really exciting, and it's sort of I
suppose the long year in the game, you'd like to
think your eye gets better and better, but it's it
doesn't always. You know, it doesn't always work out that way.
As you know is as players develop at different different
(37:00):
age ages and stages, and they have different maturation physically
and mentally. So it's some times you see something and
you go, wow, that's amazing, and it doesn't eventually. But
I think the more you're in the game, the more
you start getting a little bit more accurate with it.
And yeah, it was great at this tournament season. Some
(37:22):
talent there that you think has got It's not just
the skills you see on show or the tactical awareness.
It's the other things, the soft things around that you're
here from their coaches and parents and things about how
much they love the game, the drive and the drive
to get better. So it's that kid that goes and
trains on his own outside of outside of organized trainings
(37:46):
and most of the things that are things that we're
looking for as well that we know is a really
good recipe if you've got that skill to going on
to high on us. So there's certainly a number of
players in this tournament in that space. We've got three
guys that've got the opportunity of going back that we're
in the last little couple in South Africa that are
still young enough to play in the next one, so
(38:09):
that there was no given to that. But you know,
there are obviously guys that are on our dars. Well.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, and we look at the current first class domestic
scene at the moment, there are a number of players
who are part of the twenty nineteen side who are
at the forefront. I think Willow Rat was one of those,
the fella from Canterbury who took over the captaincy role
this year and has before well scored a double hundred.
Those players have come through that development system, haven't they.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Yeah, they have. You know that that's a nice group.
Even our last World Cup now we've got you know,
that was just this time last year. We've got like
five contracted domestic players now and there's about six that
have played first class curricula. Even in the nineteenth this
year we had two contracted players playing in the tournament,
(39:04):
you know, one that wasn't available because because he was
playing Super Smash. So it's very exciting times. And that's
where my job satisfaction comes from as see of these
guys coming through and being successful as they go through,
not just as as players, but you know, becoming good people,
good humans, good good parents, and good members of society.
(39:30):
That's that's you know, that's where I get incredible job
satisfaction from.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah, And that's important. And to keep them on the radar,
I suppose in terms of being part of the New
Zealand game, because you don't want to lose them to
contracts elsewhere, which could be an inevitable Which could be
an inevitable option, couldn't it for some of the younger
players Exactly.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Look, we're a small nation, as everyone knows but a
nation that gets stuck in and a lot of our
a lot of our young athletes, male and female, play
multiple sports and it's it's part of our philosophy of
New Zealand cricketers that we extent to play as many
sports as they can until they actually have to make
a decision one way or another. And we've had we've
(40:14):
had several players over the years that are very good
at at a number of sports and it comes to
a crunch and they choose, choose their direction.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
And.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
We get some and we lose them sometimes, and that's okay.
I think that the ones that we lose, you'd like
to think the other sports will get a better athlete
because they've been playing cricket, and the ones that stick
with us, I think we get better athletes because they've
been playing other sports as well. So we tend to
develop a little bit later than some of the other
nations that play a hell of a lot of cricket
(40:47):
and specialize really early. But I think in the long
run it sets us up pretty well. And I think,
you know, I think the results speak to themselves. Over
the last ten years or so, the way the Black
Caps have performed consistently on the world stage has been
pretty phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Indeed, well all the best in in terms of your
developmental role with the side and producing those cricket as
we need to carry the camp because there's going to
be more cricket. Whether or not it's a Test match,
it's hard to know, but there's obviously going to be
more cricket for than the world over, isn't there over
coming years?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Yeah, certainly changing face as everyone knows, and there's the
lure of big dollars and look at attracts players to
our sport, which is great. But we've got also be
aware of that and move with the times and understand
that some players are just going to be focused on
short form cricket and that's okay, but we do need
to make sure that we prop up our red bull
(41:46):
cricket because for us purists, you and me, a great
Test match beats any other formats. So we want to
we want to make sure that the game stays alive,
well healthy in this country as it is in a
number of other countries at the moment, no argument there was.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Thanks very much for joining us on the front foot.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
I please thanks to us.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Finally this week Jerry just a quick look at an
email We mentioned one last week and we received an
email from Fraser Fraser Marriott, whose father passed away recently,
who I played cricket with back many many years ago,
passed away from cancer and enjoyed our program and said
how much his father enjoyed the latter stages of his
(42:34):
life listening to our coverage and he was very enamored
with a program you did with Australian colleagues Allam Collins
and Jeff Lemon, who do an excellent podcast as well.
So it was nice to get that comment from Fraser.
(42:58):
But he did pose a question to us and I
think we sort of covered it last week about the
situation where South Africa and the World Test Championship final
against India and many of the Australians saying it's a
little bit unfair and the fact that they didn't have
to play against the sides that New Zealand and England
(43:19):
and Australia had to play. But I guess that's what
goes with the territory, doesn't it. I mean, he talked
about the irony being that the BCCI stroke ICC set
up the future Tourist program commercially fixated with regular lengthy
series among the top big three. The question is do
(43:41):
we think there's any chance that South Africa's surprise qualification
might actually prompt a rethink of a more equitable distribution. Well,
it's hard to know really what the ICC is thinking
about in the future series of the World Is Championship,
isn't it.
Speaker 5 (43:56):
Oh yeah, that's one of the big issues that's confronting
cricket really. Who runs cricket, who's in charge, who's passing
down things so that you know what the setup is
for the next couple of years. We know, we said,
and we all agree. I think all our listeners will
agree as well. It's not an ideal tournament, the World
(44:19):
Test Championship. It has many little holes and problems in it,
but that's what it is.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
And we are with it.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
And it's been an extremely interesting last year, hasn't it.
We talked about that last week as well. But it's
nice to get someone who's been enjoying the program anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yes, indeed, Fraser, thanks very much for the email. Sorry
to hear about Dave's passing, but it's nice that you
were able to share those thoughts with us and anybody
else would like to send us an email. Feel free
to do so on the front foot twenty at gmail
dot com. On the front foot twenty, that's two zero
(45:02):
at gmail dot com. That's it for this week, doing
put your feedback up again and enjoy this sunny conditions. Boy,
I don't think I better start talking about the sun
in Wellington because people will start talking about the wind
and done for about ten days and it's finally come back.
It's finally come back to the window. Yeah we needed it,
just just to call.
Speaker 4 (45:22):
Us down of it.
Speaker 5 (45:23):
Yeah, well that's great, that's great once. I'm glad you're
getting some of this good weather. At the moment it
looks as though were in for a change though words
in the next few days.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
They're right, Okay, we've got I've got Dream eleven super
Smash to look at. I'm not looking forward to indeed.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
Well, we'll join again next week absolutely. I'm off to
watch some of the audio
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Summer for more from news Talks that'd be listen live
on air or online, and keep our shows with you
wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sad B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
You want to take another pair?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Now get in.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It's entering, it is out, the test is over. Smokes
a beaut It is out and here he goes. This
delivery has a union.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Music Devolved.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
On the Front Foot with Brian Ronnell and Jeremy Cody,
powered by News Talks dead B at iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
This week the legacy of Ravi Ashwin attributed to the
Indian spinning as does he retire as one of the
games great as we wait for the champions Trophy and
other test matches played on a pitch used previously, we
don't know how many times, but it does little to
promote the emains of the test game at a time
when some of the administrators are planning alterations. Like the
(01:07):
taylor who's dealing with my new trousers. I almost got
the impression that he was thinking of adjusting me rather
than the pants. That's no open season for you, can't
you either?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
No, you're looking good ones your socks.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
The socks are a bit short, but never mind, pets,
you're still growing.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, very hard to wear them. And John Bracewall has
joined us, one of our greatest spin bowlers, and he's
going to give us reflection on Ravi Ashvin Brace's Happy
new Year to you. I haven't seen you for about
four years.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
No, but remarkably what you look him down so weller
than I do.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Oh, I can change that pretty rapidly, I can assure you.
On the front foot. Talking about Ravi Ashton, an Indian
writer called him the man who redefined the Indian game
and in the end he read the lines after being
overlooked and jumping before he was pushed. Perhaps there's one
commentator put it he was probably frustrated with the lack
(02:15):
of pictures offering spinner's assistance. We don't really know, but
one hundred and six Test matches, eighth highest wicket taker
in the game, fifth in the all time list of spinners,
five hundred and thirty seven wickets at twenty three graces,
does he end the game as one of the greats.
Speaker 6 (02:37):
Without doubt? I mean, I think he changed the game.
I think he took out a lot of the woke
talk out of the game. I think his IQ was
second to none in terms of understanding what he had
to do when bowling.
Speaker 7 (02:58):
On certain services.
Speaker 6 (03:00):
The only thing that surprised me is that he always
got a shock when he was sitting on the bench
and wasn't playing and the Indians preferred somebody else on
the as they were playing on And I could kind
of understand his frustration to a certain extent because he
set out a number of Tests and yet he's still
(03:21):
got five hundred Test wickets. I was thinking about, you
know where this discussion would go, and when I say, iq,
I can never remember ravish Ashwyn beating the bat by
yards by massive spin. He spun the ball enough to
beat the bat or enough to catch the edge. And
(03:44):
what that indicates to me was he had the intellect
to understand the pace that needed to be bold. So
rather than trying to celebrate this is me to big spinner,
he actually said, well, what if this is going to
turn three feet, how do I get it to turn
(04:04):
four and a half inches or two and a half
inches to catch the edge? Which means that I either
find the right pace for the surface or I take
pace off in the air in order to be able
to do that as well. So he could work off
the air and he could work off the surface and
to me that sets him apart from so many other bowlers.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah, Jerry, he was an innovator too, wasn't he. I
mean that's what braceis is alluding to to some extent,
isn't he.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
Yeah, he is, get a brace. Great, great day for
lawns down here and picked and I can tell you
now looks it seemed. It seemed to me the interesting
part of Ashwin to me, he saw spin bowling kind
of as a laboratory. You know. He kind of tried
to discover sorts and then put them into action.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
It wasn't so much as a spinner.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Particularly, You've spoken about that already, but it was the
approach that he took to pushing the boundary of what
was possible to do with the ball, do you know
what I mean?
Speaker 4 (05:14):
It was angles and lengths, It was using the crease.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
It was different types of flights and where the ball
and then the risk position and where it left, where
the ball came under the fingers, over the fingers, front
of the fingers, all that kind of stuff. Can you
just tell us anything about that? As a person, did
you do those sorts of things? Are always experimenting? Because
(05:40):
I can remember in a test at Eden Park, you
developed a different kind of gather and you were jumping
more than you had before.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
I mean, just a general.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Comment about that as a laboratory and working things out
for yourself.
Speaker 7 (05:58):
You're right about him, not necessarily about me.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
I mean, I mean we were. We played in a
mirror was reasonably risk averse, mainly because our game was
so much based around our medium pace game and the
sort of the wicket.
Speaker 7 (06:12):
So we played on.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
But I do remember thinking that in order to.
Speaker 7 (06:18):
Survive better, I need to bowl better to left handers.
Speaker 6 (06:22):
And because I had quite an orthodox action and a
reasonably long delivery stride, I used to get too far
out on the crease coming around the wicket to left handers,
which meant that I was negating a lot of the
spin that I that I could get, and also I
was exaggerating the angle. So what I did was I
(06:44):
spent probably six months bowling at John Reid in the nets,
learning to bowl and getting feedback from him, who was
a good player of spin bowling, both from bowling over
the wicket and what that felt like, and if I
bowled wider of the crease over the wicket, what did that?
(07:06):
What did What was the results of that and also
coming around and I kind of discovered that if I
can get in closer to the stunts, he found it
more difficult to play. So I had to develop that
jump in order to bring my back my front foot
back to mid crease, which negated the angle to a
certain extent, got me closer to the stunts, and that
(07:27):
worked for some for some time. But the thing about
Ashvind is that he did it. He developed all these
different deliveries with a straight arm. Now, not the Dora,
but what I'm saying about the you know, the woke
(07:50):
mentality that we tended to have during the nineties and
through probably too through to twenty ten, as we allowed
a lot of guys to get away with doucers and
things like that because the world of cricket would too
afraid to suggest that it may have actually come illegally.
(08:13):
He developed a technique which was slightly more front on
than traditional off spinners, which allowed them to be able
to bowl those deliveries with a straight arm and without question.
His action was never called into question. And that's kind
of the thing I like about Rabi Ashram over everybody else.
(08:35):
There was never any question about how he delivered those balls.
There's always the mystery of how did you have the
courage to be able to do that? And I suppose
twenty twenty Cricket helped that. I mean, I remember one
of his great quotes was twenty twenty cricket is about
six well constructed bad bulls. Nutshell.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
The fact you talk about how he developed those skills
and you just instanced your bowling to John Reid, how
much of what you did as a bowler and what
he would have done as a bowler is about your
own endeavors rather than help from other people. Did you
get the encouragement and help and skills of a lot
(09:23):
of other people or did you have to experiment yourself?
Speaker 6 (09:27):
Well, we were kind of owner train of drivers in
those days, weren't we. You know, if you had a playmate,
then it could help, especially if you had somebody who
was equally there for you as you were for them.
And so you're getting that mutual feedback almost that query theory,
but in a more natural way. And John Reid, you know,
(09:49):
was naturally a coach, and he was very much a
mentor to me as a coach, So we used to
spend a lot of time thinking about these sorts of
things and then going in and going, well, let's try it.
And I became quite a good bowler at left tenders
later in my career because of that. But it had
the rest of the time, you just got along the
practice and you bowlt at somebody for ten minutes, then
(10:11):
somebody said, you know, last round, and everybody tried to
hit you for six to finish the net, and that
was kind of your learning experience. And you know so,
but nowadays you know you have as a professional, you've
got basically eight hours a day every day. So therefore
(10:31):
you are you can't just go and bowl for two
hours without thinking about it, thinking about the game and
how it breaks down, and you get so much more
information that surely it's creating an environment where people do
grow a lot faster than perhaps we did, and I
think that is the case.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Race. It's interesting you talk about the nets and bowling
and the nets as a spinner. Most of our first
class sides have a batting and a bowling coach. But
my impression is the bowling coach tend to be either.
They're former seamers mainly that maybe right, I don't know,
(11:14):
but they're not former spin bowlers like yourself, And I
just wonder. I know both seamers and spinners project the
ball to the batsman, but I sense there are quite
essential differences, you know, in the gather, in the release,
in the angle perhaps of the run up slightly.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
We know the length of the run up is usually different.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
What are the differences about a spin coach if we
talk about that. I mean, I don't think we have
a spin coach for the New Zealand side unless we
go overseas. Ozzie do in Vittori, England do in Patel.
We use rung and a Harath and Mushtarak when we're overseas,
But that's generally where we see spin playing a bigger
(11:59):
role in the tour, and I just wonder why not
in New Zealand. Maybe we could investigate if it's not
turning and being sympathetic half the surface, maybe we could
investigate flight more. I don't know what are your thoughts
around that. Should we have a bowling coach who's a spinner?
Speaker 7 (12:18):
Yeah, well, I think we have Paul Wiseman, I think
is the national spin bowling coach.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Yeah he is.
Speaker 6 (12:24):
So his job is to communicate with the national coaches
and the national bowling coaches. And I assume, and I
don't know this, but I assume that a big part
of that is having one national program for spin So
how are we developing spin across the board from the
(12:47):
young person who walks in and says, I want to
be like to a first class bowling program for spinners,
you know, so professional bowling program for spin bowlers as well.
So that's that's men's and boys and women and men.
So I assume that he runs that program. I'm not
(13:11):
one hundredbstent sure if he does, but I assume he
runs that program. One of the things that kind of
concerned me when I returned back to New Zealand after
a long time away was that the number of our
spin bowlers were actually reluctant to bowl in the nets.
They preferred to go out and bowler to cone and
(13:33):
feel comfortable bowling at a cone. Well, a cone's never
going to hit you for six cone's never going to
sweep a ball that you want to actually test out
with it. It is difficult to actually sleep if I
bolted at this pace. You know, It's almost an avoidance thing.
And I think that's come about from the fact that
(13:55):
as soon as the spinner comes on in the nets.
When with a lot of our nets and a lot
of our cricketers been pace based, is that they basically
just go and try and whack the spinners. So what
are you looking for when you're actually looking for talent
in spin bowlers in a net session? And I look
(14:16):
for guys who get hit in the air at a
round about stomach height all the time into the nets
as opposed to hit out of the nets. And that
indicates to me that that person is beating the guy
between before it pitches and also after it pitches, So
(14:38):
he's beaten them in that sort of like two meter
space away from the bat.
Speaker 7 (14:45):
So he's either beating them with flight or he's beating
them off the surface because he's.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
Mishitting the ball. No one deliberately kind of hits the
ball at stomach height, you know, waist height under the covers.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Is that what a spin bowler has to do nowadays,
which is probably a little bit different when you were
preparing for first class cricket and for Test match cricket.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
The odd.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Now he has to be adept at either all three
versions of the game. Now, Test od I T twenty
or specialist, or he's going to have a bag full
of variations that he can carry and drop his hand
into it and pull out one for the next game.
And that to me seems to be the preparation plans
for many of our spinners. Is that going to be
(15:31):
an encouraging thing for spinners?
Speaker 6 (15:33):
Well, most guys who end up getting through to the
national national national program the men's or women's international side
basically have had a feeling good grounding at domestic level
in all three forms. Would you agree? No, one sort
of comes through doesn't play in all three forms. Yep.
So they generally play in those or have had a
(15:56):
good experience in all three forms at formats of the
game to get to that to get to that point
where they get selected. The difficulty is is having the
backing enough cricket and also enough consistent success to feel
confident and wanted in your unit as well?
Speaker 7 (16:18):
You know, So are all our spinners wanted or are
they just sometimes needed?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Well?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
I think I think we know the answer to that.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
We've got people like Patel, for example, who has he
played a Test match in New Zealand. He's only really
needed in Asia to be really honest, and we don't
see many of them.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
Really.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
We play four seamers and we've always been a seam
based attack, perhaps because of our climate and our history,
and you know, we grow grass pretty well and it
also provides us with a point of difference from other
countries to a here and so you know, but we
obviously also play you know, many tests away, almost as
(17:04):
many as home. I would have thought most times, you know,
I've been thinking for years, Brace, we maybe we should
have a little plan if there was one to prepare
one or two venues around New Zealand where there is
decent sunshine ours and we set about preparing a pitch
(17:28):
or two perhaps in the block and for Brian, get
it as near to the middle as you can. So
the boundary sizes are similar both sides. And you know,
we could not what not bunts and burners. I'm not
suggesting that, but I'm suggesting ones that will assist spin
(17:50):
because it's not only for the bowlers, Brace, it's for
the keepers, it's for the it's for the men fielding
and close, you know, the slips, the batpad, the pad bat,
it's the men and the you know, catching a short cover.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
You know, there's quite a lot you can learn as
a captain, for example, practicing captaining spin.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
I think we would get great benefits if we could
do that.
Speaker 6 (18:17):
It's it's as important to the batter as well, Jeremy. Yeah,
a number of times we actually send our batters away
to go to sweep school in India because they don't
get enough decent spin bowling or we can't find spin bowling.
Weik gets to New Zealand. How ridiculous is that.
Speaker 7 (18:36):
Yeah, so they go India to learn how.
Speaker 6 (18:40):
To bat and face spin twenty four hours of the day.
It just it kind of doesn't make sense that we've
got these beautiful indoor grass centers now around the country
that we're not developing these these programs that says, this
is just as much for batters as it is for bowlers,
(19:04):
because the art of weighing spin is it's actually and
it's probably the greatest feedback that we used to get
when we went to the subcontinent, and the subcontinent batters
would just say, well, you actually just don't watch the
ball well enough, you know, kind of because we didn't
really have to, so you know, whereas they actually learn
(19:27):
to watch the ball.
Speaker 7 (19:28):
And I remember when Bert Suttlet said to me that
he could see the seam on the ball and he
was about he was Floods's age at that stage.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
God still seeing it, still see it, and he.
Speaker 6 (19:42):
Could see the seam on the ball. Now, that is
one of the arts of batting, is one that learns
skill of watching closely and the laziness of not watching,
you know, vaguely watching a round thing coming at you.
And that's the difference between good batters and and and
(20:04):
poor batteries and great batters and and potentially great betters.
Is that ability to be able to pick the ball
up and understand what it's going to do off the surface,
and then study it and get better at it. So
it's not just the bowling thing. It's a batting thing
(20:25):
as well.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
You give yourself time brace you've earned some time as
a batsman, and that's the difference between defending or attacking. Yeah,
and if you can see it in the air rotating
coming down to you. I didn't learn that skill until
Turner spoke to me when we went to Pakistan in
eighty four. My head normally just start to split immediately,
(20:50):
you know, just watching the ball that hard.
Speaker 6 (20:54):
Yeah, And I think somebody like Glenn, who found a
lot of things quite natural, found it quite difficult to
deal with people who didn't find those things quite natural.
And it was quite interesting when he did become a
coach and he kind of understands stood that started to
get to understand the mortality of different people and the
(21:14):
reason why they weren't as good as him. Caine's another
one who's you know, his ability. Everyone says he judges
links so much better than everybody else. He bes link
up quicker than anybody else. But when you watch Cain practice,
here's an extraordinarily good ball watcher. And you can see
(21:35):
guys who do that, and then you can see guys
who stop watching the ball and then they estimate where
it's going to pitch. The are the guys I love bowling.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
To coming out all of that of what you and
Jeremy have just been talking about, race that the wanted
and needed scenario you're talking about. We've also got to
have captains who've got the courage to bowl spin bowlers.
I sense that Ben Stokes is happy to bowl spinners
and give them opportunities early. We seem reluctant to give
(22:05):
spin bowlers the opportunity to get the experience in greater success,
and it might count against the confidence of those bowlers
as well.
Speaker 6 (22:15):
Yeah, I think you get that though. I mean, let's
have a look at the last fifteen years or thirteen years.
Let's say Tim Salvey's reign. What was that fifteen years. Yeah,
we were pretty blessed with three guys that kind of
didn't need to go past to a lot of extent,
and he could rotate those and then you had somebody
(22:38):
like de grand Holme or somebody like that who could
actually fill that gap and stop the game for a
period while they rested. You know. So they had a
pretty good rotation system and they had some guys who
were pretty skilled at what they did, and so it's
(22:58):
fudged the numbers to a certain extent. Now, when we
had Daniel Vittori prior to that, you know, he was
Stephen Bleming's go to for a lot of a lot
of the time I need a wicket, I'll go to Steep,
I'll go to Daniel. So during that era, but he
ended up, you know, Daniel just ended up bowling too
(23:20):
many opens, so he was almost you know, he got fatigued.
So he flattened out. He was always best to be bowled,
and in spells of seven and eight he became quite
predictable when those spells became half a session to a session.
And so therefore your strike radism is great.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
If there's one thing you could do in terms of
developing spinners, now, what would be the key point for
you in terms of how we develop our spinners.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
I'd play them on bigger grounds at underage cricket. There
are a lot of kids turn up at underage cricket
and they want to bowl spin. They may not be made.
One of the reasons maybe they're not strong enough the bulk.
But they play on tea spoon grounds and they get
bullied and they become disillusioned, and everybody goes with fostering
(24:17):
spin look at us. But they play on something where
you can miss out of six, play on grounds where
you can't hit boundaries at ease, and then you will
start to see batsmanship evolved, not bully ship, and you'll
see spinners come into their own in terms of their
learning because they're not getting just belted out of the attack.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
For those people who are listening who might have kids,
which is what you're sort of talking a bit about
there who wish to be a spinner. Let me ask
you just a couple of questions about about a youngster
learning to bowl spin. Would you go for the revs
first or accuracy?
Speaker 6 (24:58):
Yeah, it's a really interesting one because it's I remember
as a kid watching a video and I think it
was run by Martin Horton where he interviewed Into carleb
into carb Allen, who's a leg spin violence, and he
asked him that exact question, and into carb Alum said,
(25:22):
I will go for accuracy because I'll stay on and
I have control of the game. And then another time
he was talking to and I can't remember who was, Oh,
it may have been Ashley Mallett, and Ashley Mallett said
to the same question, you know, the first thing I'd
teach a kid to do is I'll teach him how
(25:44):
to spin the ball and spin the ball hard, and
then as he grows in confidence, he will learn to
control that. But he won't get that spin back if
he just concentrates on line and length and staying on.
And so I went with that philosophy one because it
was a finger spinner and it made sense to me,
(26:05):
and it suited my mentality, and I kind ofunderstood that
the leg spinner may be slightly different.
Speaker 7 (26:11):
So the difference between the wrist spinner, who has a
stronger action and therefore can.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
Get that spin a little bit easier, and the finger spinner,
who ends up just being a roller, and the accuracy
between that. And I think left hand left armors and
right arms are slightly different as well, just with the angles.
But I'd certainly think with off spin in particular, you
need to be able to give the ball a rip
(26:40):
to make a difference.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
What about the length of run up?
Speaker 6 (26:44):
Yeah, I think a run up. To me, a run
up was just about rhythm. I mean, by the end
of my career, I don't even think I measured out
on runner. I mean I could just feel I was
in the right place and it got my body into
position for the pace that I wanted to bowl, uh
(27:08):
and the balance I needed at the crease. If you
look at somebody like Nathan Lyon, you know he walks
for what probably near on seven or eight meters and
then trots two yards and bolts and gets a lot
of revs on the wall chained warm. You know, basically
(27:32):
walked in but had a great turn of his shoulders
and rotation, but was really big through the shoulders, so
there's a bit of body shape involved in it, and
understanding it's not a this is what I do to
(27:53):
tell just wanders in, doesn't it, and just off a
few paces, you know, I think that half of a
satin has run up is observing the batsman, so he
almost stalks him, as you would say, like Groucho Marx
the waitress. He's almost got that sort of look about him.
(28:15):
I'm watching this intently. It suits your body type and
what rhythm that you need to get from it, and
it's kind of all coaching is about understanding the individual's
personality as well. It's not about imposing a technique. It's
not about imposing a theory. It's about getting to know
(28:37):
the person. So you're coaching the whole person, how he thinks,
how he behaves, how he sees the game of cricket.
Is he an optimist or a pessimist. You can't impose
optimism on a pessimist, but there is a position for
a pessimist in game of cricket. Generally it is called
open the batting's interesting braces.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Thank you very much for your time. We look forward
to perhaps another call from you at some stage.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, thanks Bank, Thanks mate, Brian Waddell, Jeremy Coney on
the front foot.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, great to have Brace's along. We haven't had him
on the program previously, Jerry, but he certainly adds an
understanding of spin bowling, and spinner's probably something that you
understand and us lesser cricketing brains don't really think about
those things that often, So it was lovely to hear
(29:36):
him just articulate that from a spin boler's point of view.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
Yeah, and he's got plenty more to tell us too,
I think, and and our and our followers to Wadds,
he's he's had to go through that sort of that
whole process himself, really coaching himself to be really honest,
and then as a coach later on coaching people.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
So he's got a lot. He's got a good story
and it's and it's good to listen to it.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
I personally, I can't wait for spinners to start in
the this match because I think the game really comes
alive when you've got different fields and captaincy you see
involved as well, and batsman attacking and all the whole range.
Of things, I think, and then the overrate improves all
those kinds of things. I think it's a very nice
(30:27):
part of test cricket. So I think there are things
we can still talk to him about actually, like the
New Zealand Pathway.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
We should talk to him about that as well. So
I hope to get him again on the front foot
with Waddle and Cody.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Another Spinboller and the aforementioned Paul Wiseman, who was spoken
about by John Bracewell. He's the director of talent identification
at the under nineteen level and he's been watching the
under nineteenth recently. Auckland retained that title after a week
of quality cricket at Lincoln for that development phase. Wellington
(31:02):
led into the final round but lost narrowly to Canterbury,
while Auckland, after a loss against Wellington in round one,
mustered the consistency needed in tournament play to secure the
title again over Northern Districts and Wellington. It's a non
World Cup year but still an important stage of the
careers of the young players, and Paul Wiseman joins us
(31:24):
to just tell us about how successful the under nineteen
tournament was.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 7 (31:32):
I think.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
I don't think it was ever a non successful Under
nineteen National tournament because you know, we produced some pretty
amazing facilities for these guys down here. They get to
play on first class, which is basically on love the
outfields and untill laid on for them. So if they
can't get something out of that, then there's something wrong,
(31:54):
and I think there's a lot going right in that space.
This year we changed it a little bit. Normally it's
just white ball formats. This year we're introduced a three
day game to the tournament, and we played that on
a used wicket, So we played the first three one
day games on one pitch and then we stayed on
the same pitch and played a three day game, hoping
(32:17):
to bring spin and keepers in closing fields and cataincy
and batting against spin and all that sort of thing
into play. So from that perspective, and they have two
really good type finishes, that was a real success from
our point of view.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, well, that's encouraging that that is being done too,
because it then becomes not about the points and who
wins the title, but then you see players in different
situations which normally you might not see.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Look, we've been looking over this
for a while and there's been a slow and steady
decline and the amount of Red Bull cricket played it
at school level and I understand the reasons for that,
but the skills and the tactical awareness of these players,
whilst it's really good when you talk about the too
short formats of the game, there's got the naive when
(33:05):
it comes to Red Bull cricket. So we have two
two day games in the under seventeens and we have
one in one rep well, one three day game in
under nineteens. We're hoping to have the nearest neighbor as well,
but budget not in the way of that. So it
would have been nice to have a home and away
and then they would have had two three day games.
(33:27):
And the way we've looked at it is that every
second year in a World Cup year, it's going to
be white ball only because that's what the World Cup's about.
But it sort of means that our best seventeams tend
to be in the under nineteens at under eighteen level,
so they should get at least one set of two
day games in seventeens or at least one sentence a
(33:50):
three day game in the under nineteen. So just what
it also means is the ems that we're bringing these
players down don't just focus solely on white balls. They've
actually got to train with these guys leading into it
in the red ball and they tend to have, you know,
in house games or nearest neighbor games and things like that.
So just making sure that we're keeping the red ball
(34:11):
alive because at the moment on the world scene it's
I think it's flourishing looking at the crowds that are
coming in. So we just want to make sure, you know,
we keep that rolling on through our age group and
prepared the better for when they start playing first class cricket.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, is there a balance there that you want to
or do you have an emphasis on one type of
cricket over the other, white wall over red ball, because
part of what you want to do is get New
Zealand's emerging test match talent as well, don't you one.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
We've also introduced what's called the men's Development Squad, which
is the group that kind of sits between age group
and a contracted player that can that player that can
get a little bit lost in club lands they've had
their under ninety experience, but not quite making a contracted
player in their EMA because it's pretty it's pretty tough
(35:03):
to get a contract these days. You don't just walk
out of those things and straight into a contract too often.
So we've created that space where we have trainings with
those players during the winter and then we play against
all the m A eight teams to really try to
promote those players from within, and that's been really successful.
There's been a lot of players come out of that
(35:25):
mean's development program that now I do have contracts, and
I think it's helped some of the head coaches around
the country to look outside of their sixteen nine contract
list at the talent that's coming through. So I think
that's been largely successful at the moment, and those coaches
are really engaged and getting those players that aren't contracted
(35:48):
still training in their environments, which is you know, that's
everything we're looking for. So it's really good.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, I wouldn't expect you to name names, but do
you see talent there that you judge as of now
could be test match players or ODI players internationally for
New Zealand and they need the extra work and opportunities
that the game can give them one hundred.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
The way it kind of works out is every second
year we have an Under nineteen World Cup team. Out
of that boarding fifteen man squad tends to be eighty
percent will go on and play first class cricket and
about thirty percent and become black Caps. That's sort of
the way it's it's run.
Speaker 5 (36:35):
So it would be.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Unlikely that someone that comes that we have an under
nineteen national tournament and is not future black Caps in there.
So that's always really exciting, and it's sort of I
suppose the long year in the game, you'd like to
think your eye gets better and better, but it's it
doesn't always. You know, it doesn't always work out that way.
As you know is as players develop at different different
(37:00):
age ages and stages, and they have different maturation physically
and mentally. So it's some times you see something and
you go, wow, that's amazing, and it doesn't eventually. But
I think the more you're in the game, the more
you start getting a little bit more accurate with it.
And yeah, it was great at this tournament season. Some
(37:22):
talent there that you think has got It's not just
the skills you see on show or the tactical awareness.
It's the other things, the soft things around that you're
here from their coaches and parents and things about how
much they love the game, the drive and the drive
to get better. So it's that kid that goes and
trains on his own outside of outside of organized trainings
(37:46):
and most of the things that are things that we're
looking for as well that we know is a really
good recipe if you've got that skill to going on
to high on us. So there's certainly a number of
players in this tournament in that space. We've got three
guys that've got the opportunity of going back that we're
in the last little couple in South Africa that are
still young enough to play in the next one, so
(38:09):
that there was no given to that. But you know,
there are obviously guys that are on our dars. Well.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, and we look at the current first class domestic
scene at the moment, there are a number of players
who are part of the twenty nineteen side who are
at the forefront. I think Willow Rat was one of those,
the fella from Canterbury who took over the captaincy role
this year and has before well scored a double hundred.
Those players have come through that development system, haven't they.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Yeah, they have. You know that that's a nice group.
Even our last World Cup now we've got you know,
that was just this time last year. We've got like
five contracted domestic players now and there's about six that
have played first class curricula. Even in the nineteenth this
year we had two contracted players playing in the tournament,
(39:04):
you know, one that wasn't available because because he was
playing Super Smash. So it's very exciting times. And that's
where my job satisfaction comes from as see of these
guys coming through and being successful as they go through,
not just as as players, but you know, becoming good people,
good humans, good good parents, and good members of society.
(39:30):
That's that's you know, that's where I get incredible job
satisfaction from.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah, And that's important. And to keep them on the radar,
I suppose in terms of being part of the New
Zealand game, because you don't want to lose them to
contracts elsewhere, which could be an inevitable Which could be
an inevitable option, couldn't it for some of the younger
players Exactly.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Look, we're a small nation, as everyone knows but a
nation that gets stuck in and a lot of our
a lot of our young athletes, male and female, play
multiple sports and it's it's part of our philosophy of
New Zealand cricketers that we extent to play as many
sports as they can until they actually have to make
a decision one way or another. And we've had we've
(40:14):
had several players over the years that are very good
at at a number of sports and it comes to
a crunch and they choose, choose their direction.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
And.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
We get some and we lose them sometimes, and that's okay.
I think that the ones that we lose, you'd like
to think the other sports will get a better athlete
because they've been playing cricket, and the ones that stick
with us, I think we get better athletes because they've
been playing other sports as well. So we tend to
develop a little bit later than some of the other
nations that play a hell of a lot of cricket
(40:47):
and specialize really early. But I think in the long
run it sets us up pretty well. And I think,
you know, I think the results speak to themselves. Over
the last ten years or so, the way the Black
Caps have performed consistently on the world stage has been
pretty phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Indeed, well all the best in in terms of your
developmental role with the side and producing those cricket as
we need to carry the camp because there's going to
be more cricket. Whether or not it's a Test match,
it's hard to know, but there's obviously going to be
more cricket for than the world over, isn't there over
coming years?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Yeah, certainly changing face as everyone knows, and there's the
lure of big dollars and look at attracts players to
our sport, which is great. But we've got also be
aware of that and move with the times and understand
that some players are just going to be focused on
short form cricket and that's okay, but we do need
to make sure that we prop up our red bull
(41:46):
cricket because for us purists, you and me, a great
Test match beats any other formats. So we want to
we want to make sure that the game stays alive,
well healthy in this country as it is in a
number of other countries at the moment, no argument there was.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Thanks very much for joining us on the front foot.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
I please thanks to us.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Finally this week Jerry just a quick look at an
email We mentioned one last week and we received an
email from Fraser Fraser Marriott, whose father passed away recently,
who I played cricket with back many many years ago,
passed away from cancer and enjoyed our program and said
how much his father enjoyed the latter stages of his
(42:34):
life listening to our coverage and he was very enamored
with a program you did with Australian colleagues Allam Collins
and Jeff Lemon, who do an excellent podcast as well.
So it was nice to get that comment from Fraser.
(42:58):
But he did pose a question to us and I
think we sort of covered it last week about the
situation where South Africa and the World Test Championship final
against India and many of the Australians saying it's a
little bit unfair and the fact that they didn't have
to play against the sides that New Zealand and England
(43:19):
and Australia had to play. But I guess that's what
goes with the territory, doesn't it. I mean, he talked
about the irony being that the BCCI stroke ICC set
up the future Tourist program commercially fixated with regular lengthy
series among the top big three. The question is do
(43:41):
we think there's any chance that South Africa's surprise qualification
might actually prompt a rethink of a more equitable distribution. Well,
it's hard to know really what the ICC is thinking
about in the future series of the World Is Championship,
isn't it.
Speaker 5 (43:56):
Oh yeah, that's one of the big issues that's confronting
cricket really. Who runs cricket, who's in charge, who's passing
down things so that you know what the setup is
for the next couple of years. We know, we said,
and we all agree. I think all our listeners will
agree as well. It's not an ideal tournament, the World
(44:19):
Test Championship. It has many little holes and problems in it,
but that's what it is.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
And we are with it.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
And it's been an extremely interesting last year, hasn't it.
We talked about that last week as well. But it's
nice to get someone who's been enjoying the program anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yes, indeed, Fraser, thanks very much for the email. Sorry
to hear about Dave's passing, but it's nice that you
were able to share those thoughts with us and anybody
else would like to send us an email. Feel free
to do so on the front foot twenty at gmail
dot com. On the front foot twenty, that's two zero
(45:02):
at gmail dot com. That's it for this week, doing
put your feedback up again and enjoy this sunny conditions. Boy,
I don't think I better start talking about the sun
in Wellington because people will start talking about the wind
and done for about ten days and it's finally come back.
It's finally come back to the window. Yeah we needed it,
just just to call.
Speaker 4 (45:22):
Us down of it.
Speaker 5 (45:23):
Yeah, well that's great, that's great once. I'm glad you're
getting some of this good weather. At the moment it
looks as though were in for a change though words
in the next few days.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
They're right, Okay, we've got I've got Dream eleven super
Smash to look at. I'm not looking forward to indeed.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
Well, we'll join again next week absolutely. I'm off to
watch some of the audio
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Summer for more from news Talks that'd be listen live
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