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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Eight oh five fifty five KRCD Talk Station, A very
happy Wednesday to I have been looking forward to this
moment in time since I got here in the morning
show to find out that Tom Clavin is on the rundown.
He's joined the program right now to talk about his
new book. By way of background, you probably already know him,
best selling author of twenty five let Me Underscore the
Word non fiction books on military history, sports and entertainment.

(00:24):
His writing career began in journalism as a rover reporter
for The New York Times fifteen years, as well as
contributed in multiple national magazines, awarded numerous prizes by the
Society of Professional Journalists National Newspaper Association. His books multiple
award winners, including six that made it to the New
York Times Bestseller He has written several screenplays, including a

(00:44):
couple of his books that are currently being developed as
screen projects. And I'm guessing, Tom Claven welcome that this
book we're talking about this morning is going to be
number three. I want to see a movie about this
running Deep Bravery survival and the true story of the
deadliest submarine in World War I to Tom, it's a
pleasure to have you on the program.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, thank you for having me back on the show.
And I agree it would make a terrific movie. Oh,
terrific story. So to begin with, it's insane.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
And you know right now there is a man in
my listening audience, a dear friend of mine, a career submariner,
spent his entire career in the military and submarines. And
Mike is out there sitting on the edge of a seat.
You've already sold one book, I assure you, Tom, And
he knew about this boat. He knew about the Captain
Richard Okaine, which is featured in the book. So let's
dive on into it. You described this is the deadliest

(01:33):
submarine in World War Two.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
So like.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Pilots get kills and they can become you know, certain
levels of pilots an ace. For example, this sub sunk
more vessels than any the other in the entire World
War two.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
It did it did? It is the USS Tang and
it was the best attack submarine the US had in
the Pacific theater. And it sank thirty three Japanese ships
and what have sunk except that ran into it, you know,
ran into an entire convoy that was trying to take
out It proved to be a little too much. But
the Tang was was the most recognized. And I'm glad

(02:10):
you mentioned about your friend who knew knows about Richard o'caine,
because amongst some mariners there seems to be a recognition
of Ocaine and he's like the Navy equivalent of Audie Murphy. Yes,
but to the general public they don't. They've never heard
of the guy, which is which is a shame because
he was great Git, the heroic character in World War Two.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, yeah, I wait to you here. We'll get a
brief little sliver of the excitement that these men were
involved with on the submarine. But Mike wanted you and
meet to know my listening audience is going to pass along.
There was a street named after the Tang in Groton,
Connecticut at the submarine base, and the CEO there Richard
Dick o'caine is also apparently they have a officers quarters

(02:50):
named after him on the sub bay. So everyone in
the Navy knows who this guy is. Let's talk about
some of the action they First off, what was life
like in a World War time submarine? I can't imagine
it was fun.

Speaker 4 (03:03):
No, it wasn't.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
And in fact, you can only volunteer for submarine duty.
You cannot be assigned to it because it was. It
was not only very cramped and very tight quarters. You're claustrophobic,
you were sunk, you can say, but it was dangerous.

Speaker 5 (03:20):
It was.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
You know, the mortality rate for a submarine sailor was
six times that of a surface ship sailor, so that
we lost fifty two boats was sunk during World War two,
and so there was a lot of a lot of
the Navy guys they said it was nothing to do
with submarines, but they turned out to be especially effective,
and the tang was was head and shoulders above the

(03:43):
other submarines and being able to hunt down and sink
Japanese shipping.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well, you're right about psychological profile to serve on a submarine.
I personally would not pass that test. The idea of
it's less about claustrophobia, Tom, but the idea of depth
charges exploding around you in any moment in time you
I implode and sink to the bottom of the sea,
which we're going to talk about here in a minute.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, yeah, you could be bonded, you'd be sailing on
the surface and as plane spots you, it could bother you.
You could be underwater and a depth charges like you said,
could come and get you. There could be a malfunction.
And the thing is when a submarine is in danger
of sinking and it goes under the water, there's no
way to go. I mean, one of the things about
if you're ont a destroyer or a battleship or an

(04:25):
aircraft carrier and it's damaged, you have the option of
getting into a lifeboat or if you need to jump
overboard and hold on to something. In a submarine, there's
no jumping overboard. There's no way out. So that's another
reason why it was especially risky and tension film the
way of serving the Navy.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Well, you go into great detail about this and then
let's fast forward and obviously I don't want a huge
reveal on this, but it's so exciting conceptually. This is
the book selling moment right here, at this moment in time,
Tom claven, Let's fast forward to October twenty fourth, nineteen
forty four.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yes, eighty one years ago, this Friday, and the tang
is in the Foremosa Strait, which is off the coast
of China and it encounters an entire Japanese convoy. Now,
some submarines were operated in packs, were the one submarine,
but the tank was always a kind of a lone wolf.
It was by itself. I saw this convoy, it couldn't
let it pass pass through. So an attack that took

(05:23):
out an entire convoy. It was actually destroying it when
it fired its last torpedo, which boomerang came back and
struck the tang. It sank to one undred It came
to the rest of the bottom one hundred and eighty feet.
The captain and some of the crew members rightaged to survive.
It's a really exciting sequence to tell out of the boat.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Okay, there's a lot of process here. They were sunk
by their own torpedo. I didn't even know that was
a concept, Tom. I guess we're happy we have more
modern technology that can't happen anymore.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
Well.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
One of the reveals I think of Running Deep is
how inadequate a lot of our torpedoes were. I mean,
when you watch a movie about World War Two and
somebody fires the tort it always hits the target, but
a lot of times too often, and where we're to
the reality was that that torpedoes would explode too early,
they would be completely duds, and they can boomerang. They
could the gyroscope would go crazy and they would come

(06:12):
around as a case of the tank and strike the
tank in the stern. It sank stern first. A lot
of the guys and the boat were killed, but some
managed to escape and get to the surface where you know,
they went to the frying pans of the fire because
they were rescued by Japanese sailors who weren't too happy
about the submarine that I just destroyed a lot of
the shipping.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
No, I imagine not so they sink one hundred and
eighty feet down. Eighty seven total crew men were on
this submarine, which again I'm trying to struggle with the
reality of the living conditions in this tightest space with
eighty seven but nine and managed to get to the surface.
Can I just say a screal briefly, how on the

(06:52):
hell do you get from one hundred and eighty feet
down in a sealed container to get to the surface.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Well, you know, there are two or three the captain
and the cup of guys were on the bridge when
the torpedo hits. They were thrown into the water, but
there were six others that down below that.

Speaker 6 (07:06):
They had this.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
Device called the bombson lung which was invented right before
the war, which you put it on and it's sort
of like it's not a scuba diving kind of thing,
and so that's just a little inflatable thing.

Speaker 6 (07:16):
But the idea was.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
They could give you enough oxygen to give you a
chance to get to the surface. And so that's what
these guys did. They put any bombs of lungs they
got into it the escape chamber, they would push down
into the water and they headed for the surface. Some
made it, some did not.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Now I have to ask you, are these like parachutes.
Every of the eight, every one of the eighty seven
crewmen had one of the us to use.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
Well, they were on board, let's put it that way.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Life preservers. You didn't bother or even think about them
until you absolutely needed them and hope they would work.
It was like one was issued to every sailor, like
hopefully in the escape chamber you'd find them available.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
All right, So when they make it to the top,
the remaining nine survivor and nine survivors. They were in
fact captured by the Japanese and placed in what you
described in the book as a torture camp.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, torture camp because they they were considered almost like
terrorists because they preyed on civilian shipping, which you know,
like the Japanese equivalent of the Virgin Marine, and so
they were in the brutal conditions very similar to what
the book Unbroken. In fact, Louis Zamparini, he was the
hero of the book Unbroken, was one of Captain o'caine's
fellow officers at this particular torture camp, and Ocane was

(08:25):
a particular target because once they found out he was
the captain of the submarine that had destroyed more shipping,
more of their boats than any ships than any of
the submarine, they really had it out for him and
he barely survived. But to the camp we.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Liberated home on, I bet he was a target of
some serious abuse, sir, I truly believe that. Oh yeah, well,
and he did, I guess ultimately earn the highest award
of the land, the Medal of Honor, as well as
other decorations. Was it for his service obviously on the
Tang but was because of this particular operation where they

(09:00):
sunk so many of this Japanese fleet. Is that the
basis for his receiving the Medal of Honor.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Well, I should point out that Richard O'Kane was like
the Audie Murphy of the US Navy. He was the
most decorated naval officer of World War Two. So he
had already been recognized for his service for operating, being
the captain of this terrific effective submarine. But I think
what got in the Medal of Honor is that during
his captivity in the torture camp, he endured, and he

(09:26):
got his men to endure, he got others to endure.
He was really an inspiration that he would Basically I
almost called this book Undefeated. He refused to be defeated
by no matter what the Japanese hold out to him,
and I think that helped other people survive terrific conditions.
So I think the Medal of Honor was different for
his survival and the survival of others. Wow, and a
great lesson to be learned for us who struggle with

(09:47):
you know, a fraction of the day to day challenges
that he struggled with, you know, inspiration can be derived
from a man who walked out of a torture camp
at ninety pounds after being subjected to that abuse. That's truly,
truly something be said, Tom Clayven, Let me ask you this,
did you have in doing your research for this? Did
you have access to diaries or personal accounts by the
people who served on the ship on the submarine. Where

(10:09):
did you come up with the information to understand these
day to day conditions and what they went through. Well,
I'm glad you mention that, because they they When the
survivors of the tank got back to the United States
and once they recovered enough physically from their various injuries,
they were all debriefed. And there's also all histories at
the World War Two Center Museum in New Orleans. Richard

(10:32):
o'caine years later, which is very interesting, he wrote a
book called Clear the Bridge about his experiences as the
tank captain, but he only devoted two pages to his
a year long incarceration in the torture camp. Like even
years later, he couldn't he couldn't bear to write about it.
There are other officers that kept diaries, so yes, there
was thankfully lucky for me a lot of archivro material

(10:53):
to draw from.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
How did I'd never heard of the tank obviously didn't
serve in the military, most notably Navy on a submarine
like Mike did. But how did you learn personally of
the tang and Richard O'Kaine to write this book? Because
this is yet another, as far as I know, untold
story coming out of World War Two. It's twenty twenty five.
You'd think we'd have heard all of this by now, Tom.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Exactly how could there still be a story we don't
know about? But again, I was researching something else and
I stumbled upon I mentioned of Audio Murphy, comparing him
to Richard O'Kaine because of being the most decorated officers.
I said, I never heard of this guy. Most people
have heard of Audio Murphy because he went on to
become a Hollywood.

Speaker 6 (11:32):
Star and made movies right like that.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
But Richard O'Cain, who the heck is that?

Speaker 6 (11:36):
You know?

Speaker 2 (11:36):
A guy who born in New Hampshire and he became
one of the most decorated officer of the Navy. So
that's how I sort of stumbled upon it. And it
was one of those things where I just kept peeling
back layers and finding more information and more information found
out about the Tang. How con nobody noticed it about
the Tang and the most effective submarine in World War Two.
So the more I learned, the more I realized, this
is just an incredible story. And thankfully it's not been told,

(12:00):
you know, for a mainstream audience until Running Deep.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
That's why we have you, Tom Claven doing it time
after time after time. Twenty five non fiction books. I
guess does this make it twenty six or is this
number twenty five?

Speaker 2 (12:13):
You know, I'm like Jack Benny who never got past
age thirty nine. I had twenty five books. That's this
my story of sticking to it.

Speaker 7 (12:22):
There you go.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Congratulations on the winning of the New York Times bestseller.
Another one. We're going to talk about six New York
Times bestsellers. Everyone's going to want to get a copy
of Running Deep, Bravery Survival and the True Story of
the deadliest submarine of World War Two. Tom, It's always
a pleasure talking with you. Keep up the great work.
And I know my listen is going to grab up
a copy of this. We've already got out on my
blog page of fifty five cars dot Com to make
it really easy for them to do that to be

(12:43):
able to get a copy of my next guest book,
The Broken Whistle, A Deep State running up My guess.
The author Pedro Israel or Tom Miami, born son of
Cuman immigrants who fled the tyranny of Fidel Castro's Communism.
He brings his eighteen years experience as a Central Intelligence
Agency veteran to his memoir, having served in the war

(13:04):
torn regions like Iraq, Afghanistan, and other undisclosed locations in
the Middle East, and at the Inspector General for the
intelligence community, working with on whistleblower cases is bravery and
exposing abuses of power led to retribution and termination. Despite
earning eight Exceptional Performance Awards for his contributions to the
US national security mostly encountered terrorism operations. Bachelor's degree in

(13:26):
political science from Florida University summa cum laude graduate and
master's degree in Security policy Studies in George Washington University,
specializing in defense policy, transnational security issues, and political psychology.
The book again, A Broken Whistle, A Deep stak running
buck Pedro Ortu, Welcome to the fifty five KC Morning Show.
It's a pleasure to have you on.

Speaker 8 (13:47):
Good morning. Thank you so much for having it on
your show this morning.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
And perfect time. I don't know if I know you
have seen Tucker Carlson's interview with Vladimir putin its reference
in the materials. His interview the other day with Mike
Banz from mid February censored the National Security State and
the inversion of democracy. It was a frightening account by
Mike Ben's of how our lettered agencies are all working
inwardly to control the narrative on social media, to the

(14:13):
exclusion of other alternative points of view, to the suppression
of factual information on narratives we get from our government.
I mean, this seems to be such a fundamental violation
of our freedoms, our liberties, and our constitutional rights. You
were kind of a victim of all this, and you
talk about it in the Broken Whistle.

Speaker 8 (14:32):
In my case, it was from an internal perspective. By law,
if you see longdoing waste fraud views significant and specific
endangerment to public safety, as a federal civilian bureaucrat, you're
supposed to report it to your authorized officials through authorized channels,

(14:54):
basically superiors that all the way up to the head
of the agency and even the Inspector General. When you
do that, you're doing an act of blowing to whistle.
Most whistle blowers are accidental whistle blowers. I didn't even
know I was blowing to whistle, so I did it accidentally.
So once you do that, by law, they're not supposed

(15:14):
to take any personnel actions against you. They're supposed to
investigate and determine if indeed there's something going on and
fix it, which it's the way it's supposed to be done. Well,
in my case, the hammer came down against me and
they basically ran me out of CIA. I had to

(15:35):
take shelter in the Office of Inspector. Generally get don't's community.
It was a long process of just bureaucredit beating, bullying,
using every element of the agency. It was literally a
criminal conspiracy to cover up the violations of law I
had reported. So eventually what happens is they have to
investigate their reprisals. Well, they got into a criminal conspiracy

(16:00):
to investigate the reprisals. So it led to me blowing
the whistle a second time on the broken whistle on
these processes being broken. The second time, I went all
the way up the chain of command to the Director
of the CIA himself, the Director of National Intelligence, and
even Congress. But my disclosures to Congress apparently may have

(16:20):
never made it to Congress because the IG refused to
send the disclosures to Congress, the CIA refused to send
certain materials. So it was just a vast criminal conspiracy
to hide their wrongdoing and make sure that I would
be chased out. And since I refused to quit, then
they basically sent the Office of Security like a big

(16:41):
bad bully to threaten me that if I wouldn't shut up,
they would fire me. And since I didn't shut up,
that's exactly what they did. The point is, it's unaccountable
government power that violates the law because no one holds
them accountable. And what we're missing here is the congressional
element of oversight to make sure that the laws matter.

(17:03):
And if we get to the point where the laws
don't matter, we're running into basically lawlessness and tyranny and
consequently abuse us of power. And that's how we get
to what Tucker was talking about with Mike Bents. We
have got a bloated bureaucracy that is unaccountable and Unfortunately,

(17:27):
it has the power to violate the laws and not
be held accountable for it, and it leads us into
these vast abuses that even know it shuts down political dissent,
It targets political dissent like the Jay six ers.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
It tries to shape the.

Speaker 8 (17:45):
Narrative politically on every aspect of social media. And you
would have to do a historical deep dive on how
we got here too, because what has happened is although
we had the Church Committee with oversight in the nineteen
seven these mid seventies, once you start going up to
nine to eleven September eleventh, two thousand and one, vast

(18:07):
powers were given to the national security bureaucracy and those
powers allow them to turn the switch on and off
at will to target Americans through counterintelligence or counter terrorism prejudices.
And that's what has happened. And you look at Jay six.
They counted as an insurrection as a terrorism threat, so

(18:28):
they can flip that switch on and.

Speaker 4 (18:29):
Target these people.

Speaker 8 (18:31):
And unless we get Congress involved to do some oversight,
these abuses will continue.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Oh, I couldn't agree with you more on that, and
the FIZA abuses that we've learned about over the years
that they were going after Donald Trump like a rabid
dogs are to me just absolutely horrific violations of a
Fourth Amendment right to be free of unreasonable searches and caizars.
They are literally literally searching through our effects and papers
without any any belief that anyone out here in the

(18:59):
world has committed a crime, and that is a fundamental
violation of our constitutional rights. We don't have standing. This
is something I want to ask you about, Pedro, author
of Broken Whistle, Deep State Running Bok.

Speaker 6 (19:08):
You have been.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
Directly harmed by these violations. There is a whistleblower statue
you mentioned that you go in. Initially you're considered a whistleblower,
and then the pressure lorded down upon you is a
second abuse, which again you are you flagg don't you?
Have you ever consulted with counsel about maybe filing an
action based upon the violations of the law that the

(19:30):
CIA has engaged in or I'm just trying to wonder
if there's some recourse beyond congressional action, because Congress doesn't
seem to be able to do anything.

Speaker 6 (19:40):
Well.

Speaker 8 (19:41):
The problem is the law is so weak that it
that it is unenforceable, so I have no legality and
the law. The short answer to a very long answer
is Congress has created the situation with their lack of oversight.
The no legal remedy is based the way the law

(20:02):
is structured. The Inspector Generals have to do an investigation.
But what happens a lot of the times is they
do sham incomplete bias predetermined outcome investigations if they do one,
and they also don't adhere to the terms on the
time limits. So the further away you get from an

(20:24):
act of reprisal, the further or actually what happens is
the harder it is to substantiate a reprisal. So you
may have an IG that does a reprisal investigation five
seven years after the fact and they say, well, no,
we did not substantiate the reprisal. That does not mean
the reprisal did not happen. That means the IG didn't
find a reprisal. And you're right, I mean it's a

(20:48):
blatant violation of the law because on paper I have
law saying that I'm protected, but they don't enforce the laws.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Does the fox guarding a henhouse of reality?

Speaker 8 (21:02):
Well, the inspector general system that's that's another topic that
can be discussed is inherently flawed and broken. They are
driven by two six months reports every year to Congress
through their agency head and basically that the report is

(21:22):
to find fraud, waste and abuse to save those agencies money.
And they're always looking for a way to spend the
narratives say we did X amount of cases, recovered x
amount of funds that you know, we investigated or actually
evaluate a certain aspect of operations and we determined that
they can tweak and do a couple of little changes,

(21:42):
and they think a little bit better. You know, we
did some audits and we determined that we're in compliance.
It's basically just paper, that's.

Speaker 7 (21:51):
All it is.

Speaker 8 (21:52):
It's just a report. So they're running like a hamster
on you know, the wheel, just going through the motion
of creating those reports twice a year. So they will
look for what we call low hanging fruit, like for example,
when the CIAIG was approached with an instance of candy

(22:13):
machine theft of about three thousand dollars that same day,
they opened an investigation. Within sixty days, they had already
made referrals for prosecution to the attorneys in the local district,
which declined prosecution and it became an internal matter. But
when I reported the reprisal, it took them roughly one

(22:36):
hundred and eighty days to finally open an investigation. And
after they opened an investigation, it took them an additional
I do remember if it was like five hundred days
to say they finished an investigation that was totally incomplete
and flawed because they failed to talk to witnesses. They
predetermined the outcome of the answers to the questions they

(22:56):
gave to witness, they didn't allow the witness to volunteer
extra infant I mean it was just shocking. That's all
I've got to.

Speaker 9 (23:04):
Say about that.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Wow, this is and I guess I have to answer
you for we part company a fascinating account, Broken Whistle,
Deep State Running Back. Did you write this for Congress
in a way? I mean, obviously you're enlightening the general public,
and so we would encourage our elected officials to do
something about these abuses. But I suppose you had maybe
our elected officials in mind when you wrote the book.

Speaker 8 (23:28):
I certainly did, But more importantly, I wrote it for
the common day Americans, so they can see that I'm
a common day American. Yes, sir, born and raised in
the United States of America. And look what happens to
somebody of their own current internally. If they do this
to somebody that's internally, imagine what they'll do to somebody.

Speaker 6 (23:46):
On the outside.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
Look at the Jay sixers. So I ended it with
my epilogue, who will speak up for you when they.

Speaker 8 (23:52):
Come looking for you? The American people need to wake
up for their slomburgler LeFarge eet, their apathy and their complacency,
and becoming the involved and active in any form, in
any way that they can help our constitutional republic. Worlds,
we're going to lose our constitutional republic and go down
this path of tyranny. So it's time to wake up
and do something.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
And we will put that statement all caps in bold
and underscored. Pedro Israel or to get a copy of
the Broken Whistle at Deep State Run Amuck Memoir of
a CIA whistleblower at fifty five krs dot com. Pedro,
thank you so much for standing up and speaking truth
to power. It's a beautiful thing to behold. You're part
of the solution, my friend. Happy to welcome to the PI.
Give up hearsee Marty, someone you're probably already know. She

(24:35):
is a best selling author Jane Healy, author of this
book we're going to be talking about this morning, good
Night from Paris. Also author of The Secret Stealer, which
was wildly successful as well as Beantonge Girls, Washington Posts
and Amazon Charts bestseller. Graduate of the University Newmpshire in
Northeastern University. I want to cut right to the chase
chain and we'll have up to the eight fifteen. So

(24:56):
let's dive on into the book. Welcome to the program,
And this is a true story. I've interviewed a lot
of authors over the years about World War two stories,
both works of historical fiction as well as nonfiction works,
and I'm always amazed, as much as I heard about
World War Two, there's always somebody else that emerges, a
story that nobody's ever heard about. And it's just mind

(25:18):
blowing the stories that people haven't heard about because they
it seems to me always to be some story that
you think everybody would know about. Welcome to the program, Jane,
it's good to have you on.

Speaker 10 (25:29):
Thank you so much for having me. Brian, and yes,
I completely agree. It just when you think that there's
no more stories to tell about World War Two, another
one comes along like this one. I wasn't really intending
to write another World War two historical fiction novel, but
I discovered the story of this nineteen thirties actress. Her
name was Drew Layton, and what she did during the

(25:51):
war was really incredible.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, And I always try to really force myself to
keep things in historical perspective. Nineteen thirty was not the
way it is in twenty twenty three. From the know
how men and women relate and the nature of where
they were in society. So when I read a story
and learn about a woman like Drew Layton, it just
it's really cool to see how much they were able

(26:14):
to accomplish in really a male dominated world.

Speaker 10 (26:19):
Yes, absolutely, Yeah, So to give you some background, she
was a Hollywood actress in the nineteen thirty She was
best known for the Charlie Chan film and she in
nineteen thirty eight met the love of her life, Jacques Tartier,
who was Frenchman, and she left it all behind and
moved to Paris. And then, of course, as we know,
the war started in nineteen thirty nine and Jacques went

(26:40):
off to war, and she didn't know what to do.
There wasn't a lot of acting jobs, obviously, but she
ended up getting a job as essentially the first voice
of America on the radio, broadcasting news to America from
France on what was really happening on the continent of Europe.
And she did such a good job that the Nazis

(27:02):
started announcing on German radio that when they occupied France,
they would execute your ladies.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Wow. And I was going to ask that I couldn't
recall what year the France got occupied, but she was
broadcasting from Paris, France, this anti Nazi you know, I
will say propaganda, but it was truth, speaking about what
the Nazis roll about. But she was in Paris doing that.

Speaker 10 (27:22):
She was in Paris doing that before the occupation, and
then Paris was occupied and she fled the city for
a while but ended up coming back. Paris was occupied
in June nineteen forty, so she ended up coming back.
And you know, she she kind of lived a life
during the war, always looking over her shoulder. She used
her marry name Tartier, so that they wouldn't they wouldn't

(27:44):
track her down. But you know, she was a stunning
tall blonde actress, so it was she wasn't It wasn't
easy for her to hide and play in sight, but
somehow she managed to do that. And not only did
she do that, but she eventually started being part of
the underground at work getting Allied flyers who were landing
in occupied territories out of the occupied territories to safety well.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
And I understand in spite of the fact that they
promised to execute her for what she had said before
the occupation, she did get arrested by the Nazis.

Speaker 10 (28:17):
She did, and they'd never They arrested her for being American,
but they never made the connection that Drew Tatier was
Drew Layton, which is amazing. And this is another aspect
of the story that was so fascinated by. After Pearl Harbor,
the Nazis rounded up a number of American female expatriots
living in Paris and the surrounding area and they arrested them.

(28:40):
There were several hundred of them. They arrested them, and
their first place for prison was a zoo outside Paris.
They arrested them and put them in the monkey house,
and their friends and family had to pay five francs
to like yell over the fence to them, and you know,
and they'd be yelling back, like, you know, bring me
my socks and underwear, like you know. It was crazy.

(29:02):
And so that actually was one of the first stories
I learned about when I was researching the Secrets Sealers
where Drew was mentioned, and I was like, how did
I not know that a few hundred women were you know,
American women were prison in prison in a zoo in
Paris in nineteen you know, after post Parl Harbor. It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
It is crazy. And again another fun fact you learned
so late in the game, so many years after the war,
but it did happen. I guess I'm wondering because after
she she was helped able to escape from the prison camp.
I guess that's the interim story before she started working
and joining the resistance movement to help you know, fairy
airmen who were down in and helped them escape to freedom.
But in the middle, though she got out of the

(29:43):
prison camp, how was she able to manage that? I
don't want to do too many spoilers, but it's kind
of an interesting component of the story.

Speaker 10 (29:50):
It's a very interesting component. So they were in the
in prison in the zoo for a few days, maybe
a week, and then they were put into another of
these women were then transferred to another camp in the
mountains in France called Vittel. It was a Spa town.
There was a number of hotels and they turned the
hotel basically into prisons with a barbed wire all around it.

(30:12):
But these were so American and American and British women
were imprisoned in this in this camp, but it was
monitored by the Red Cross, so it was not as
brutal in terms of conditions as as some of the
other camps that you know, we've read about in history.
And so she actually faked late stage cancer by you know,

(30:32):
she she had one of the one of the doctors
agreed to give her meds to make her look and
appear very very sick. So she faced cancer to get
released so she could go back and help help these
Allied flyers through the underground network in in France.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
And she did that. It's kind of like an underground
railroad kind of thing. Or maybe you think about the
diary in frank where she was being uh, you know,
hiding in the attic of a home. How was she
able to do this, she said. I mean, it's reported
she helped forty two down airman escape by letting them
stay at her home. Everybody turned everybody into World War two.

(31:11):
It seemed like you had a neighbor that was, you know,
cotton to the Nazi regime. If they found out that
you had Jews or were harboring enemy airmen, then they
would turn you in. How was she able to fly
under the radar for so long and help so many
people without getting caught.

Speaker 10 (31:27):
Yeah, it was amazing. There was a number of them
that she had a home. After she got out of prison,
she went to Barbazon, which was a little village about
ninety minutes outside of Paris, so she had a home
there where she was able to hide flyers. But then
there was also a network of doctors and other people
in Paris, you know, families, not a lot of money,

(31:50):
but they also had agreed to hide these down to airmen,
and so Drew got involved. She got involved really at
first because she spoke English, and you know, one of her,
one of her, one of the villagers nearby, came to
her door and said, you know, I have an airman
in my apple tree. Don't speak English, and you do so,

(32:12):
can you tell me what to do with this man
and talk to him? And so she you know, she
was pulled into it because of her ability to speak English.
But then when she realized what was happening and how
she could help, she got very involved. She was a
key figure and in this underground network of rescuing these flyers.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Well, you may have answered my next question, maybe our
final question, since we're coming up on time. But Jane
establishing trust. I always wondered how it was. I mean,
you see in the movies you do get the down airmen.
He happens upon a farmhouse. They happen to be sympathetic
and they put you in touch with the underground and
the next thing you know, you're being ferried off to
Switzerland or whatever. How how is it that she was

(32:50):
able to establish the trust? Was it through her deed
in that one action that they knew she was reliable
and could help the allies? Or did did they do
a background check? I mean, how is it that the
resistance people were able to trust newcomers? In other words?

Speaker 10 (33:06):
Yeah, you know, I think that she was involved on
a periphery level before Parl Horever, before she was imprisoned
just by virtual of the fact that she was broadcasting
and threatened. She was broadcasting through America and all these
so she was already had some of those connections in place,
and then and then after she got out, she still
had those connections. And in fact, she was so sick

(33:28):
when she first got out of prison because she had
almost overdone it and killed herself. With all these mens
she took, they started the resistance, Certain numbers of the
resistance that she knew, started approaching her being like, can
you help, can you help? And she's like, I have to.

Speaker 11 (33:41):
I have to at least recover.

Speaker 10 (33:42):
But then as the war went on, you know, these
these airmen were turning up in fields and and you know,
in barns, and she she really just couldn't not get involved.

Speaker 12 (33:53):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Well, I guess she was compelled to join the cause.
Her husband, I understand, got killed fighting in Syria along
with the Free French forces, so that might have been
an impetus as well. But the fascinating book by my
guest Today best selling author Jane Heally the name of
the book good Night from Paris, work of historical fiction,
this woman actually did exist, and Jane's written all about her, Jane.
It's on my blog page fifty five cars dot com,

(34:15):
so my listeners can easily get a copy of it,
and I know they're going to really love it. Fantastic
works you've done previously, so we're going to enjoy this read.
It's been a pleasure having you on the program, and
thanks for keeping as centertain Jay. Everybody in my listening
audience doesn't need an introduction when it comes to Bill O'Reilly.
Multiple Emmy winner. He has written multiple books, more than
twenty million books in print, and they are wonderful, every

(34:37):
one of them. I've read about I think probably twenty
of Bill's books. The keys can't put them down, and
that is the case with the new and welcome to
the fifty five carssee Morning Show to talk about your
new book, Confronting Evil Assessing a worst of the Worst.
Bill O'Reilly, it is fantastic to have you back on
the fifty five KRS Morning Show. Hey you been Brian,
I've been great. Took me a period of two days,

(34:58):
basically about maybe three four hours read the whole thing
cover to cover. Could barely put it down, and I
didn't want to put it down. After the first day
I love. The afterward is where I want to start,
if I may, here's my definition of evil, You right,
harming a human being without remorse, vivid, concise, nothing more needed.
Of course, self and family defense as well as righteous
war situations are not part of the evil equation in

(35:19):
this world. The primary drivers of wickedness are money, power
and zelotry, as you document in this book going through
some of the world's worst multi mass murders in history.
You want to relate this, if I may be so bold,
to what happened with Charlie Kirk and how we're working
through the issues that are unfolding with regard to that murder,

(35:41):
which seems to be born of what you define as evil.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Yeah, it's pretty eerie. I mean, the book was out
last Tuesday, and then Wednesday, I wake up and Putin's
lob and missiles into poland Putins on the cover of
Confronting Evil, and then if you wurs later Charlie Kirk
is assassinated. I'm sitting there on WHOA. Obviously, the Kirk

(36:06):
murder is an evil act, and evil metastasizes so that
his family, mister Kirk's family never be the same to
little kids as widow, and then the family of the
alleged shooter. They're destroyed across the board. So evil always

(36:27):
takes a lot of people with it. But there's no
question that the man who will be convicted in the
murder of Charlie Kirk, you know, it's hard to say
he's evil one hundred percent, but certainly he's got to

(36:47):
be put in that category at this point.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Well, certainly hasn't risen the level of Genghis Khan, who,
as you point out, was responsible for killing around fifty
million people. Or you could pivot over to the worst
mass murder in the world's history, eighty million dead under
Mount se Dung. You know, it's kind of strange, Bill O'Reilly.
You know, you read the book and you begin with Caliguila,
and there's the problem with leadership based on birthright or

(37:14):
family connections. That guy was off the charts insane, as
you well document, and he did indiscriminate violence, killed people
at will. No one even knew who he was going
to kill the next day. You could be best friends
with Coligial one day and the next day he's seeing
to it that you're executed, murdered by some twisted mechanism.
But many times I kind of struggle with how these

(37:35):
individuals were able to obtain the power and then gain
it in spite of the fact that they were so
evil and so many people lived under the threat. That's
the problem when you have a government that threatens its
own people with death if they don't follow the party line.
You get everybody turning each and everybody in Oh my
next door neighbor uttered something against the administration, you find
that person's gone, disappeared, murdered. How is it that evil

(37:59):
has been able over an over again, Bill a rally
to I hate to use the word succeed.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Because people will turn away. Brian, all of fifteen men,
I couldn't even find a woman to get up into
that evil category. You know, as far as comparing a
female to what these males did, there one never existed

(38:26):
at that level. But if you look at all fifteen
men that we profile, all of them have relevance today.
So I eat colligular way back in the Roman Empire,
they oh, well, what does that have to do with America. Well,
Rome was the most powerful nation in the ancient world
for centuries and a collapse, and a collapse because of

(38:48):
evil could that happen to America? Absolutely absolutely, And if
you don't learn the lessons of how evil metallic exercises,
how it takes root. I mean, look at the German people.
German Americans are the largest ethnic group in the country,

(39:11):
and I know you have a lot of German Americans
in Cincinnati.

Speaker 6 (39:14):
Oh yeah, And.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
In nineteen thirty four, the German people voted ninety percent
to give Adolf Hitler dictatorial powers. Ninety percent and the
police state wasn't even in full form, yet they did
it because they wanted to do it. So evil comes

(39:38):
in a lot of different ways and a lot of
different disguises. But in the modern world in America today, many,
perhaps most Americans look away from it. And that's how
it takes root, and that's how it does its damage.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
And the demand for expedience I think is largely behind that.
You know, oh man, to deal with the Congress, they
have to pass the law. We need somebody to just
can just get it done, go ahead and do it,
you know. And I can use this in the context
I find offensive that Donald Trump blew up people in
about thousand miles plus away. Did they really represent an
imminent threat? Can he just willingly declare someone a narco

(40:16):
terrorist and then just kill them. And a lot of
people are plotting that that's expedient. He got the job done.
The drugs aren't coming to our country, period and the story.
But that's kind of like relinquishing the masses authority to
control the direction of their lives by handing over complete
power to a crazy guy like Adolf Hitler.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
Well, I disagree there. I think that the evil that
drugs are bringing into not only the United States but
all over the world, killing millions of people. Millions of
people die every year from drug overdosers, and those who
don't die are enslaved, their families are ruined in many cases.

(40:56):
You have to stop the source of that evil. True,
And I talked to President Trump about this on a
number of occasions. I said, there's only one way, only
one way on this kind of an evil, and that
is to declare it a national security problem, which it is,
and then use the military to punish them. And if

(41:19):
you do that, you'll cut it down fifty sixty percent.
I mean, believe me. In the cartel world, and we
profile two of them in confronting evil scary, so they're
not real happy today. Okay, they're looking up at the
sky because a drone can hit them at any time. No,
And to me, that's fine. These people are as evil

(41:43):
as they come. And it extends even to the sidewalks
of Cincinnati where you have neighborhoods where the heroin dealers
and fentanyl dealers stand outside and hawk their wares.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
Exactly, they let them do it. But you know, I
guess what are you doing? Maybe I'm a constitutional purist
to a certain degree. We got due process. We also
don't have the death penalty for drug dealing. Now if
we did, maybe you could justify killing them. But even
if they were caught in US waters with a bunch
of drugs, you couldn't execute them. You'd have to send
them to courts, prove that they were guilty, and then

(42:14):
throw them in jail for however period of time.

Speaker 11 (42:16):
I like it, but.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
It's a different situation because we have a law that
says if a president designates a group, and Trump has
specified which groups to be terrorists, then the US military
can take them out. That's why I wrote killing the Killers, Yeah,
because that's exactly what Obama and Trump did with isis

(42:43):
with Solomoni and the Iranian National Guard with al Qaeda,
with Osama bin Laden, it's exactly what they did. There
was no due process for those people because they were
deemed to be a threat to national security. It's a
different situation than a domestic crime.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Well, one of the more interesting elements, and it shows
the benefit of living in our society where we do
have the freedom to control the direction of where we go.
You highlight Franklin and Armfield, these slave traders. If they
earned and built up a profit of two point three
billion dollars in today's net worth by selling humanity. Thankfully,
we're not that country anymore. We changed the dynamic. Guess

(43:24):
we had to go through a bloody revolution to do it,
but we no longer are a slave country. So this
illustrates the point of being in a democracy, a republic,
versus this dictatorial reality where you're living with a mass
murderer who can well basically decide your fate on a whim.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
Well, there's no question that the United States is a
republic that grants most power to the people. The problem
now is a lot of the people don't care, excuse me,
don't exercise their vote, don't pay attention, don't know anything.
Public school education system has collapsed in many areas. People

(44:04):
create bubble worlds based on social media. We've got a
lot of problems in the area of who's exercising power now.
The slavers who became the richest men in the world,
two of them. What they did was so heinous that
I had to put it on the page because people
don't understand exactly how that industry worked exactly.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
That's the benefit of this book. I didn't know any
day Vladimir Putin. He you know, honestly, you know, I've
been around along time, aboubly be sixty years old on Sunday,
Bill O'Reilly, and I've read a lot about Vladimir Putin.
And I hated the Soviet Union when they were there.
I grew up in that Cold War era, you know,
the evil commies. I understand that. But you document Vladimir
Putin's life. This guy is a hardcore murderer, torturer, criminal

(44:51):
enterprise kind of guy, and.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
A psychopath and is nuclear weapons. Yes, so, I mean,
that's the most dangerous situation on the planet right now.
Who But my job as a journalist slash historian is
to inform and a year ago because me a year

(45:14):
to write and research these books. I said to myself,
you know, I'm seeing a lot of evil in America
and around the world. And then I look back and
the only other time in our history, modern history was
the nineteen thirties and after the Great Depression, when all
of the tutalitarian regimes rose up in Europe and Japan
and the result was one hundred million dead in World

(45:36):
War Two. Now we're not at that level now, but
the same mentality exists. Evil is not being confronted. In
New York City where I am, the people may elect
a mayor who's a communist and who openly says I'm

(45:56):
not going to enforce the law. Well, what the deuce
you think is going to happen with eight and a
half million people. I know, the bodies are just going
to mount. It's going to be a catastrophe. And my say,
anybody who votes for this man, Donnie, is that's an
evil act. You may not be evil, but giving this

(46:17):
man power, when he's looking you in the eye telling
you that he's going to foster anarchy and allow violence
in the nation's largest city, what are you crazy? And
the answer is yeah, a lot of people in America,
for whatever reason, have lost their way.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yes they have, and I think in your afterward you
address some of the primary reasons for that decline, a
theological belief, embrace of selfish behavior, and the high tech
delivery system in the form of the Internet, which allows
people to sit in their basement in their mom's house
and be subjected to all kinds of evil forces without
a balancing message being presented.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
Bill O'Reilly, Yeah, that's having to happen to the guy
in Utah. That's exactly what happened to him. And you know,
again I wrote this book, I'm saying to myself, I'm
not nostra damas. You are right the you know, the
guys said to me the release of your book last
week was haunting base of all what's happened since. And

(47:20):
I think that's an accurate word.

Speaker 10 (47:22):
It is.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
And as soon as I heard about the murder and
the circumstances surrounding Charlie Kirk's assassination, your book is the
first thing I thought of, and I thought, Man, isn't
it amazing. I'll be talking to Bill O'Reilly about this
next week. Confronting evil, assessing the worst of the worst.
My guest today, the incomparable Bill O'Reilly. I guarantee you
will love this book, like all of his books, get

(47:43):
a copy of it at fifty five krse dot com.
Is a link there, Bill, so my listeners can easily
get a copy of this outstanding book. Thank you for
what you do. Thank you for coming on the Morning
show and talking about your book and the work that
you do. And I'm waiting for the next one. Already,
Bill O'Reilly joining the program, Jaron Smith, and he's got
a book to talk about. We'll get to that in
just a second. He servant several roles at the White House,
including Deputy Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy, Deputy

(48:04):
Director for Office of American Innovation, Director of Urban Affairs
and Revitalization for the White House Domestic Policy Council. Prior
to serving in the White House, he worked for Senator
Tim Scott and served on the staff of House Committee
on Financial Services, the Republican Study Committee, House Republican Conference
under then Representative Mike Pence in the office of Representative J. C. Watts.
Also former executive director of the Third Good Marshall Foundation

(48:25):
Center for Advancing Opportunity, currently partners at Denton Global Advisors
and Senior Fellow Right on Crime. Holds a BBA from
Howard University, a Master of Divinity from Howard School Divinity,
and is a member Proud Alpha Phi Alpha. Welcome jarn
Smith to talk about your new book, Underserved, Harnessing the
principles of Lincoln's vision for reconstruction for today's forgotten communities.

(48:46):
Welcome to the fifty five Case Morning Show. It's a
pleasure to have you on.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Underserved Communities. Let's first identify that because what your book is,
at least I understand it is a blueprint for conservatives
to engage in outreach and to address the needs of
underserved communities. I thought we fixed that with a Great
Society program. Jeron Smith, what were supposed to have ended
poverty back in the sixties.

Speaker 9 (49:11):
It was supposed to, but it looked like it's made
things even worse. You know right now where we live
in America, you know, if your parents grew up impoverish,
the likelihood that you can work yourself out of poverty,
that's become less likely, which is why we want to
create intentional uh infrastructure for opportunity, similar to what Lincoln's

(49:37):
vision was such long ago after reconstruction, an opportunity plan
that's focused on economic empowerment. Lincoln knew the importance of
economic opportunity, and we haven't had a president quite like
President Trump that focused on that economic opportunity for underserved communities.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
Well, it seems to be the problem is, you know,
there's an economic component to this, and you know, we
have this umbilical court of government which keeps people well
connected to government and keeping and continuing to vote for
these same programs for fear that oh my god, I'm
going to be left out in the cold and I
won't have any place to turn to get myself out
of this situation. But you're not getting yourself out of
a situation by being hooked up to a government program.

(50:21):
But also this sort of social psychological thing that's going on,
which is it's impossible no one in this racist, horrific,
you know country that we live in can ever get
themselves out of poverty. The systems stacked against you. That's
a mindset that exists among too many people in this country.

Speaker 9 (50:39):
Jurn No, I totally agree as a victim's mentality. Yeah,
And what we're trying to speak is opportunity mentality that
like the American Dream, could be available to anyone despite
their background. But it all starts with civil society as
not something that's top down, you know, as community or oriented.

(51:01):
It's looking at things like family, historical institutions like our churches,
you know, and re imagining community and in the community.
We can figure out what's the best way to create
educational pipelines, we can figure out how to start businesses,
we can figure out how to how to step into

(51:22):
innovation and and all those things are going to have
to be a ground up approach. And what we advocate
is looking at this very holistically, looking at everything from affordability,
you know, to economic development, to education, two jobs, and
as well as kind of looking at you know, entrepreneurship
and how can we build wealth over time. All of

(51:44):
these things aren't things that the government can provide, but
we need to have an approach that allows for the
private sector to get more involved.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Getting the private sector involved. See I was going to
ask you, John Smith, how how a conservative ideological you know,
fix to the problems of these communities can even get
their foot in the door to have a conversation. I mean,
the you know, the the political mindset. It seems to
be so warped and so rigid and fixed that oh
my god, this person is a conservative. This person's you know,

(52:15):
advocating a free market approach to fixing our problems. I
reject that out front before I even hear the message.

Speaker 9 (52:23):
Well, I mean, look, the free market system has done
more to lift impoverish.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
Communities than any other system that we've ever seen.

Speaker 9 (52:33):
The thing is is that part of it is getting
the government out the way, you know, having a deregulatory regime,
you know, letting people keep more of their money and
then allowing for parents, you know, institutions to be empowered
is a key aspect of it. And so we want
to create the right incentives, and we did things like

(52:55):
created opportunity zones, which we're able to kind of mobilize,
mobilize over fix billion dollars in new capital and two
three thousand different census tracks all across the country. And
then we worked with local mayors, you know, and county
officials to figure out, you know, how do we create
safe communities, you know, how do we invest in police

(53:18):
so that we can ensure that capital comes into those
areas that need it most. Because you know, and I
know that, like, if you have an unsafe community, that's
going to be very hard to kind of get the
type of development in that community that's going to create
the jobs, you know, allow for the revenues to create
the best schools, and so all of these things are interconnected,

(53:38):
and we're looking at it holistically, and we're recommending our
leadership to take these new nuanced approaches that embrace the
civil society, embraces the free markets, and we'll see the
progress that will.

Speaker 4 (53:50):
Come from it.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
How much of the problems in these underserved communities do
you trace back to the deterioration or I'm going to
almost say the complete eradication of the nuclear family.

Speaker 9 (54:02):
Oh. We we talk a lot about that in the
book Underserved. You know, the incentives that were in many
of the Great Society programs made so many households choose
having a father or married household or or being able
to depend on the government instead then getting access to

(54:22):
those resources. You know, I've heard stories, you know from
my parents that the government officials literally coming from house
to house, you know, promoting that Like look, you know,
if you want to get help from the government, you know,
don't get married you know, and then sign up for
these benefits, and it's had a huge effect on households
and also the mental health and viability of some of

(54:47):
these communities. I mean, if you look at the statistics,
you know, a single parent household, single mother household, they're
almost like, uh, you know, like sixty percent less likely
to you know, get out of poverty, and you're also
very more likely to kind of end up in the
criminal justice system. I mean, you see almost like seventy
percent of the individual individuals in the criminals system on

(55:09):
grew up in single mother households. And so it's had
a huge effect on underserved communities, and we want to
roll that back and bring back civil society and promote families.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
And it seems to me that we should, you know,
along the lines of, you know, if you're going to
father a child and you're down all better re responsible
for the financial component that goes along with it. That
we should go after these deadbeat dads who just get
women pregnant and run off into the woods. It's therein
lies a real challenge and that one tiny slice of
the broader problem. Jeron.

Speaker 9 (55:39):
Yeah, and it's a generational no issue. You know, we're
looking at you know, a very generation of individuals who
grew up in these single parent households, and so you
have young men that don't know how to be fathers,
you know, or young young women who aren't used to
kind of working with the men, and so like. Look,
we had to meet the problem where its at. You know,
it's not going to happen overnight, but it starts with

(56:02):
individual communities. It starts with rebuilding civil society through our churches,
you know, through through the things that's made America great historically.
And what we're trying to advocate for is a new
infrastructure of opportunity that's not so dependent on the government,
but that's dependent more on the community and the private sector,
so it's more sustainable for everyone.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Well, hearing what you're saying, Jaron Smith, author of Underserved,
I bet you're a firm believer in the idea of
school choice as well.

Speaker 9 (56:32):
Oh, very much.

Speaker 13 (56:32):
So.

Speaker 9 (56:33):
I think you have to let the decision lie with
the parent, you know, so rather it's homeschooling the child,
send them to a charter school or even the best
public school that's in the community. You know, we shouldn't
put these parents in a situation where they're stuck sending
their children to a poor school.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
John Smith, get a copy of the book if we
put on my blog page for you by Kerosey dot com.
Underserved harnessing the principles of Lincoln's vision of reconstruction for
today forgotten communities. I'm guessing you wrote it for politicians.
I meant, I know everybody should read it, and my
listeners will certainly get a copy of it. But maybe
we want to buy a copy and send it off

(57:12):
to our elected officials.

Speaker 9 (57:15):
Oh yeah, certainly. But I think that, like all power
goes to the people, and so we want to kind
of know what type of leadership can help drive the
country forward. This is a great thought piece to learn
how we can get there and what you should be
advocating for from.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
Your leadership, John Smith. I appreciate your care and concern
and the ideas articulated in your book Underserved. My listeners
can get a copy again at fifty five krec dot com.
Thanks for spending time with my listeners and me and
addressing this very important subject. Jaron, It's been great talking
with you. Try to remain optimistic in spite of the
fact that subject matter is a little bleak and dire.
We started with Tech Friday's Dave Hatter, who talked about

(57:51):
electric magnetic pulses earlier. We're going to elaborate on that
and find out really just how genuinely bad things would
be in the event we were hit with this. William
He's a New York Times best selling author and professor
of history at Montree College in Montrea, North Carolina. He
hold a doctoral degree from Purdue University with a specialization
of military history and technology. Author of more than fifty books,

(58:13):
multiple best sellers, including the One Second After series, which
details the realistic effects of an EMP strike. Noted expert,
he's been interviewed on all over news and a bunch
of topics ranging from history, technology to cultural issues. Today,
I welcome him to the fifty five Casee Morning Show
to talk about his new book, Five Years After Doctor Forstin.

(58:33):
Welcome to the fifty five Cassee Morning Show. It's a
distinct pleasure to have you on my program today.

Speaker 5 (58:37):
Oh, good morning, pleasure to be with you. Given it
early after me.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
I get up at three or two thirty to do
this show. Yeah, crimea river ed at nine. Oh that's
what I do. What I'm off work doctor. All right,
so you're an expert in electro magnetic pulses, and you
know we've all been through a power audage and it sucks,

(59:02):
but it's not to the level that an EMP would
cause by way of damage to our electromagnet our electric grid.
Let my listeners know, just briefly before we dive into
the details of this new book five years after, what's
the effect of an EMP, like, for example, a nuclear
bomb exploding above in the atmosphere over the United States

(59:23):
of America.

Speaker 5 (59:25):
You got it there, EMP short and electromagnetic pulse. It's
created by detonating innis to the weapon forty to sixty
kilo ton about two hundred miles above the Earth's atmosphere.
As a cascades down, it sets up an electrostatic discharge.
It's the Earth's surface feeds into the antenna's wiring, which

(59:46):
becomes antennas short circuits the system. The scary statistic there is,
if that ever was done to us and it's shorted
at our grid, upwards ninety percent of all Americans with
hair within a year or two.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Of all Americans would perish within a year or two.

Speaker 5 (01:00:07):
Well, think about it. Electricity is the fundamental block building
blocks of our society. Where did your water come from
this morning? I mean asking you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
The question pumps that are run by electricity, Yes.

Speaker 5 (01:00:21):
Exactly, everything is dependent on electricity. Your water supply is gone,
food supply about twenty days is the average for most
towns and cities gone. Medication gone, command and control gone,
disease starts taking over, and then chaos. It's a very
frightening scenario. Doctor Fortune. Let's put a real important statistic

(01:00:45):
on their real important emphasis point, because clearly what you
said isn't enough to get people concerned about this. How
about you won't be able to access TikTok anymore?

Speaker 11 (01:00:57):
Gone?

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Is the internet lately wiped out your ability to communicate
with your friends and relatives. Phone systems don't work. Even
if you had a landline, it would be fried out.
And let me get the other is illustration. You have
a car sitting in a driveway that is not covered
by a Faraday cage. The electrical system in the car
would also be fried out, would it not? In this
emp case?

Speaker 5 (01:01:17):
Yeah, you know you're stuffed. Yes, it's a Paraday cage.
S smich ron anywhere from a low of ten percent
to eighty or ninety percent of cars made after nineteen
eighty gone.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Well, that makes a good argument for a carburetor. Now
in your in your newest book, now you talk about
all of this. These are works of fiction, but these
are all based upon fact, reality, what the real life
scenario would be as as the situation unfolds. Moving fast
forward from your first book on this topic to your
newest book five years after. What's this focus on this

(01:01:51):
most recent book.

Speaker 5 (01:01:53):
Well, I was a title implied. It's five years after,
and it's amps to society to rebuild itself for five years,
and it's basically crawling back from the abyss. But there
are still things out there supposed disease like okay, COVID
hits but ten times worse. That's what it's about.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Okay, does that have a happy ending? I'm just kidding.
I'm kidding. Dealing with the practical solutions, I threw out
that real quickly, the Faraday cage. But you know, for
people who don't know, fair day cage dissipates that electromagnetic pulse.
So whatever is surrounded by like I could go out
and buy a cell phone bag that is a Faraday cage.

(01:02:34):
My cell phone would survive. Now the grid upon which
it works would be wiped out, but at my cell
phone as a device would still operate at some future
dat if it ever got fixed. But we can't. Can
we strengthen our grid or otherwise protect our grid? Can we?

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
Doctor?

Speaker 5 (01:02:53):
That's my anger and frustration. That's why I'm doing a
lot of interviews again. We're spending to trillion dollars on
so called green energy. Sure, you know, I actually do
kind of support wind mills in solar. But on the
other hand, the average component in our electrical grid is
over forty years old. We are pumping our electricity in

(01:03:14):
a grid basically from the nineteen seventies nineteen eighties. Why
are we not spending more money on infrastructure, security, more
spare parts, upgraded systems. We're not doing it. We're naked,
We rarely are.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
Okay, and recognizing that our grids as old as they are,
and the numerous problems we've already faced, and the rush
to add even more components to it in the name
of being green, all the evs in the world and
everything else, we can't manage the projections for the load
on the grid right now. And what you're saying, is

(01:03:52):
it's way beyond just that. It's protecting us from this
kind of scenario, and a scenario that doesn't necessarily require
the Chinese Communist Party to launch. It learned early in
the program, and as you know, we could get electromagnetic
pulse from the sun.

Speaker 5 (01:04:05):
Right exactly. It's called to seem the gronal mass ejection.
Another thing to worry about. But the problem with the
grid now is it's like December seventh, nineteen forty one.
President meets with his staff and they got mister President,
we've got a problem. All our aircraft carriers are made
in Japan, our planes are made in Germany. Where are

(01:04:26):
all our major components being made today China? Yes, that
is what worries me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
But the practical solution, assuming we don't have budget problems
and we have sane people that are actually forward thinking
and think and worried about this, your wonderful scenario with
December seventh, nineteen forty one is great, But going back
to the fundamental question, can it be protected enough that
this catastrophic scenario you're talking about with ninety percent of

(01:04:57):
the population being dead by one year, to be protected
to the extent where we wouldn't have that level of catastrophe. Yeah,
of course that was a quick guest.

Speaker 5 (01:05:07):
Yes, it means, you know, I'm going to be optimistic
on this, that we have to upgrade, harden, hardening the system,
better circuit breakings, better status which are microcomputers, things like
that we could be doing it. And also we have
to start using the nineteen forty one scenario. We got
to learn to start re manufacturing things like transformers here

(01:05:30):
in the United States. Yes, not shut overseas because we
need quick replacement of parts in such a time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
So, uh, a Faraday cage around my pad, my neighborhood's
pad mounted transformers, would that help?

Speaker 6 (01:05:45):
Oh?

Speaker 13 (01:05:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:05:47):
Expensive?

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
It fair enough? Well, that's easy. Where the problem is,
it's just really expensive. So rather than you know, deal
with the realities of the expense and be forward thinking
that it's like, well, it's too expensive to do it,
so just let's keep pushing forward with incentives to buy
electric vehicles and not worry about the problem.

Speaker 5 (01:06:04):
Well the name book, Yeah, it's it's called expectation of normalacy.
We expect things to continue as they are.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
M well, like ostriches with this ahead in the sand.
This is the emp reality we're facing and I appreciate
Doctor Fortune giving us the information and regularly doing so.
In these wonderful, wonderful books. You can get them on
my blog page fifty five CARC dot com. Doctor, we
have your book linked there so my listeners can easily
get a copy of it. And congratulations on all your

(01:06:31):
best selling works. Fabulous reads, all of them. And I
know my listeners will enjoy not just this one, but
your other works, and I'll encourage them to check them out,
Doctor Fortune, keep up the great work. I enjoyed our
conversation today and certainly appreciate the time you spent with
my listeners in me heyto two here a fifty five
car CUD talk station, and a very happy Wednesday to you.
Coming up bottom of the hour every Wednesday here in

(01:06:51):
the fifty five CARC Morning Show, Judge Inn and Apolatana
to talk about the freedom of speech, which is a
topic that is addressed in the book I'm talking about
with my next guest, Greg. You may know him former
trial attorney as opposed to what I was, a litigation attorney.
Big difference. Aaron Greg knows the difference. New York Times
best selling author of the Russian hoax and witch hunts.
A legal and political analyst for Fox News, where he

(01:07:12):
was an anchor for fifteen years. Prior to Fox, he
was an anchor and correspondent for MSNBC and an anchor
at Court TV. He has compiled and written commentary as
well as an introduction on the book we're talking about today,
the Constitution of the United States and other patriotic documents.
Welcome to the program, Greg Jarrett, it's a real pleasure
to have you on today.

Speaker 12 (01:07:30):
Well, Brian, my pleasure to be with you, Thanks so much.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
And yeah, Judging, I mean for the materials that are
in the book, and you have a wealth of important
documents in this book. Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Wright,
certain federalist papers, selections, articles or confederations, writings from Frederick
Douglass writing, Ronald Reagan, writings and speeches Albert Einstein. This
is fascinating. How is it that you selected these particular

(01:07:57):
documents which people can read in full along with your commentary.
What was the motivation behind this, Greg, Well.

Speaker 12 (01:08:04):
There was no other book like it. There are some
other books that print in part the Constitution and then
follow it up with speeches by Hillary Clinton and you know,
sort of this deconstruction of our American history and the
very negative. I couldn't find what I wanted, so I

(01:08:27):
decided to write it myself. This is a tribute to
the many patriots who made America great. We are a
luminous beacon for liberty, prosperity, and justice. And in the
book you can read our nation's most important documents, speeches, letters.
You mentioned a few of them, but these are things

(01:08:48):
that changed the course of history, inspiring words and galvanizing
ideas that shaped America our virtues, our aspirations, our ideals.
And sadly, you know, public education they don't really emphasize
or teach government and civics. And I've found that out

(01:09:10):
through my own young daughters at the time. And you know,
that was the really germination.

Speaker 14 (01:09:17):
Of this book.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Yea, it's the benefit of having concerned parents, you know,
you can get the blanks filled in at home. That
was my situation.

Speaker 6 (01:09:25):
At home.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
We had regular family dinner discussions and my dad was
very politically motivated and active. That's how I got involved
in politics at a young young age. But got all
this sort of important foundational information around the dining room
table because it isn't in schools anymore. And Greg, you
know you've I think you've done a wonderful job of illustrating,
sadly illustrating the loss of eloquence in modern political discourse.

(01:09:49):
These were in many cases, this preceded the Internet and
preceded radio. Folks had to communicate their ideas and thoughts
in a profound way so they could change the arts
and minds of people. And do offer their arguments and
their opinions in an effort to change the hearts and
minds of people. This is great work here.

Speaker 12 (01:10:09):
Thank you very much, Brian. You know how lucky are
we to live in the greatest nation in history. And
fortunately the eloquence of the written word and the spoken
word have been honored and preserved for our national heritage.
And it's all contained in my book. It came out

(01:10:32):
yesterday nationwide. It can be ordered online. You'll find it
in bookstores everywhere.

Speaker 6 (01:10:37):
And we were.

Speaker 12 (01:10:38):
Blessed with extraordinary leaders. They stealed our resolve for independence
and self determination. They invented this new form of government
by the people and for the people, and those leaders
who followed for more than two centuries ably guided us
through these grave threats and treacher risk challenges, and you know,

(01:11:02):
so this is a unique collector's edition of all of
those wise words.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
And your commentary, you know, you contrasted what this book
includes and contrasted with you Hillary Clinton going on in
deconstructing the Constitution. She's making a political argument, obviously a
left leaning political argument, but that's not what you were
trying to do here. You're not trying to accomplish some
sort of uh, you know, modern US versus them debate here.

Speaker 12 (01:11:34):
Yeah, you're you're right. As I had looked across publications,
across Amazon, other retailers, I was really amazed to realize
that I couldn't find what I was looking for, a patriotic,
complete American made selection of our greatest documents. So I resolved,

(01:11:54):
I'm going to do it. And this doesn't promote an agenda.
It has the full Constitution. It contains essential conservative documents
as well as liberal ones, everything from Booker T. Washington,
Frederick Douglas through Teddy Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower, and among my

(01:12:15):
favorites truly is Ronald Reagan. So this book is philosophically patriotic.
It is not partisan.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
Well and liberal conservative. One of my favorite liberals, Thomas Jefferson,
a true liberal in the traditional sense of liberalism, you know,
obviously believed in freedoms and liberties, and what an unbelievably
important person shaping the direction of our country.

Speaker 12 (01:12:41):
Oh he really was quite a brilliant man. And he
was so well educated. Oh yeah, and really a magician wordsmith.
But you've also got John Adams who was warning that
unscrupulous men in power, if left unchecked, would become ravenous

(01:13:03):
beasts of prey, destroying our government. And he was right
about that. We have seen that recently with the weaponization
of authority by the FBI, the Department of Justice, intelligence agencies,
and George Washington warned away from political parties. He said,

(01:13:26):
these will become potent engines of unprincipled men. Political parties
will undermine our freedom. We should not abide by them. Unfortunately,
no one listened.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Yes, isn't that the truth? And those who do not
study mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them.
We seem to be on our on a timeline on
that ins far as our monetary system is concerned. You know,
we should look at Venezuela when we're talking about something
like that, but I don't want to go down that road.
He also include and I thought this was a rather
interesting contribution, Albert Einstein's warning to President Franklin Delan Rosebult
about the atomic bomb.

Speaker 12 (01:14:02):
Yeah, I mean it was so amazing. Of course, the
renowned theoretical physicist, world renowned, he sent this secret letter
to Franklin Roosevelt, and he had been tracking the use
of uranium abroad, and he sends this letter to Roosevelt
warning him that he thinks the Nazis are attempting to

(01:14:25):
develop this new and frightening a powerful weapon, an atomic bomb.
And you know, he raised the alarm, and that triggered
the US British covert operation to build our own weapon
in the highly classified Manhattan Project. I think great. Many

(01:14:47):
Americans don't know that, they don't appreciate that. And of
course Harry Truman ordered the use of the atomic bombs.
You'll read his famous statement, the force from which the
Sun draws its power has been loosened against those who
brought war to the Far East. And then he was

(01:15:09):
followed by Dwight Eisenhower. You can read his efforts to
seek peace through strength, to halt nuclear proliferation. All of
these are important documents and addresses and speeches and letters
that you know, I think Americans need to revisit to
rekindle the American spirit.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
Well, and another truly impactful person. I think that doesn't
get enough, you know, press or people don't go back
and reread his important writings Frederick Douglas.

Speaker 12 (01:15:45):
Yeah, you know, you just took the words out of
my mouth. Truly one of the highlights of my book.
And understand who Frederick Douglas was, an escape slave who
became an at aist icon and a confident of Abraham Lincoln.
At one point, you know, black people were not traditionally

(01:16:08):
allowed in the White House. Lincoln changed all of that,
and in one encounter in a room full of people
in the White House in moocks, Frederick Douglass all eyes
turned to him, and Lincoln steps forward and says, here
is the man whose judgment I trust more than any
other human being. And after Lincoln was assassinated, Frederick Douglas

(01:16:33):
printed one of the greatest eulogies to the man who, probably,
at least in my judgment, was the greatest president in
American history, Abraham Lincoln.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
Abraham Lincoln and some people view him as very controversial
for wanting to maintain the Republic and not allow the
Southern States to break away. Some argue that is well
within the constitution. When the powers that be are, you know,
serving the will of the people, then you have a
right to be against some sort of basis of our
country's foundation. Is there any common right in there on that?

Speaker 12 (01:17:05):
Well, you know, you are arguably correct if you take
the meaning literally. You know, we've come to think of,
you know, the Civil War as an effort to abolish
slavery and human bondage. That certainly became the principal purpose,

(01:17:30):
but at the beginning it was told to hold the
Union together. And you know, Abraham Lincoln was left to
deal with the faustian bargain that our founders had created.
They wanted the Constitution to be approved so much that

(01:17:50):
they kicked the can down the road on slavery, which,
and as I describe in my introduction, was shameful, a
shameful bargain. And you can criticize so many of our
founders for being slaveholders themselves, with the exception of John Adams,
who was virulently against slavery. And so if I have

(01:18:14):
one regret, by the way, it is. Abigail Adams. Her beautiful, brilliant,
intelligent letters are not included in the book.

Speaker 8 (01:18:25):
You know, we did.

Speaker 12 (01:18:26):
We had to draw some lines. But these were great
people in American history, and they're memorialized in this book
so that you can read their thoughts, their ideas and
their words.

Speaker 1 (01:18:39):
Well, it suggests those comments that you just made. Greg Jared,
Author or collector of the United States and the Constitution,
United States and the Patriotic Documents, Volume two. I am
certain that there is a wealth of additional documents you
could come up with a follow up volume.

Speaker 12 (01:18:54):
There are you should see my pile of documents on
my dad and Abigail's at the top. I so much
wanted to include her, and so yeah, maybe there's a
volume two come. That's a great idea, or.

Speaker 1 (01:19:09):
At least a supplement, an updated edition to include the
other chapters that you left out. Greg Jared, this is
great and I know my listener is going to love it.
My audience eats this stuff up. And these are in
documents that every household should have sort of your own.
If you're a political person, you probably have independently collected
so many of the works that are included in here.
But here you are one volume hard copy. Greg Jared

(01:19:30):
has done a wonderful job collecting him and offering his commentary.
One other one, I guess the original A women's suffrage fighter.
Susan B. Anthony's Proclamation on women's right to Vote is
also included.

Speaker 12 (01:19:41):
Oh, it is as well as Victoria Woodhall, who argue
the Constitution makes no distinction of sex and women are
the equals of men. I think she was wrong. I
think women, at least in my family are far superior.
Yes to the men.

Speaker 1 (01:19:59):
Sounds like thank you married out of your element, Greg,
Like I did.

Speaker 12 (01:20:02):
Yes, Oh yeah, totally married, And I'm so grateful.

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
Smart men do that, so you and I get props
for doing the right thing. It's so far as our
partners are concerned. The whole idea is to rekindle the
American spirit. You can do that very easily. Read the
eloquence of these unbelievably famous folks and all the reasons
they are unbelievably famous. And if they're not famous in
your mind, then you need the book more than anybody.
The Constitution of the United States and the Patriotic Documents.

(01:20:29):
Greg Jarrett, Thanks on behalf of all my listeners and
me for putting these all together and collecting them and
showing the importance of reading and going back and studying
where how we got here from there. Greg, It's been
a real pleasure having you on the program.

Speaker 12 (01:20:44):
Thanks again, find my pleasure and thanks so much. I
really appreciate your kind words about the book.

Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
Joining the fifty five Caresey Morning Show. Frank Abrams a
criminal defense attorney in North Carolina as well as Florida's
practicing federal state criminal law for thirty eight plus years.
He's been on public radio and court TV, and he
is an author and today we're welcoming to the fifty
five Carse Morning Show to talk about his book, The
Cock Fight. And I observe Frank, and it's a pleasure

(01:21:10):
to have you on the program. It's been long stated
the law holds it as better the ten guilty persons
escape than one innocent sufferer. I'm a firm believer in that,
and there was a time in my life, Frank, that
I believed in the death penalty. But as I've gotten,
coming older and wiser and having practiced litigation for sixteen years,
I am painfully aware of the fact that quite often,
well maybe not often, but sometimes innocent people are convicted,

(01:21:34):
and if the state has the ability to take your
life from you, that's a scary proposition. Welcome Frank, Sorry
for being long winded.

Speaker 4 (01:21:41):
Oh no, it's an honor and a pleasure, and you
are one hundred percent on point.

Speaker 9 (01:21:46):
Ryan.

Speaker 4 (01:21:47):
So can I tell you a little bit about how
this book came about?

Speaker 1 (01:21:51):
Absolutely, Plus explain the title for my listeners so they
understand the relationship.

Speaker 4 (01:21:57):
Okay, the title of the book is The cock Fight.
So one day I'm sitting at federal court. This is
a few years back, and it comes to my attention
and the attention that's some other attorneys that there's a
Kentucky crime lab that has been mishandling DNA. So, Brian,

(01:22:19):
I thought to myself, what could go wrong there? So
that's when I started. Yeah, that's when I started writing
the book. It gets even better, but I started writing
the book. The main character of my book is a
teacher of the year who's falsely accused of a relationship

(01:22:40):
with a student, loses everything he has and is living
under a bridge with homeless people. Now why is it
called the cock Fight? The answer is because every third
Friday of the month under this bridge, they have cock fights.
Why because the basis of the book is they treat

(01:23:03):
animals the same way fighting roosters the same way they
treat people. They make them mean and angry towards each other,
and then they make money in the whole unholy process.

Speaker 1 (01:23:17):
I'm glad you pointed out the money thing, because I
had that line in the notes circled for this reason
because as you know from my comments introducing you having
practice litigation and eight years in Chicago and eight years
in house with a healthcare company, I know how expensive
retaining a lawyer is. I mean outrageous amounts of money.

(01:23:37):
You're talking several hundred at minimum dollars an hour. And
if you get falsely accused of crime or accused of crime,
generally speaking, you have to get a defense attorney unless
you rely on the public defender. And I will welcome
your observations about the competency of the public Defender's office,
but they tend to be overwhelmed with a number of
cases they had, So to get competent counsel, it's coming

(01:23:59):
out of your pocket. And for those the monments that
don't have a lot of money, it's an impossible chore.

Speaker 4 (01:24:06):
Abbsosolutely public. Defender's offices across the country are utterly overwhelmed.
They don't have the time, they don't have the resources.
But this even gets better because yesterday in the news
came out a story that a crime lab analyst altered

(01:24:31):
DNA evidence in hundreds of cases in Colorado. Yesterday's news,
it's like they knew, Brian, that I was going to
be interviewed by you today. It's like they knew why.

Speaker 1 (01:24:45):
And no, the timing is excellent, Frankfort, Why would they
do that?

Speaker 4 (01:24:53):
Well, here's the thing I wrote. I wrote in my
book of the story of this teacher's fight to clear
his name and all that he has to go through.
And in it, I have a hearing and a trial,
and there's eight potential eight reasons, eight things more than
eight actually that can go wrong, and a lot of

(01:25:14):
it has to do with time elements. These lab analysts
are told, we want these results, we want them now.
There's hundreds and hundreds of cases. They'll fudge results. There's
evidence in that particular case she was indicted for over
a hundred plus cases that she dealt with. You know,

(01:25:37):
I can't say why people do things. But I know
this that it happens, and when the system, when someone's
life and someone's freedom is at stake, there has to
be more than just oh, well, we have this test
and we're gonna absolutely rely on the results of this test.

Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
Point Frank, I think there's a sort of perhaps it's
a you know, presumably a government employee or some lab
They don't have any relationship to defend it. Maybe there's
a presumption of guilt because they've been charged, so they
have a lack of care and concern that they should
sort of put themselves in the position of the person
who's a defendant and do the job correctly and be
able to testify on the stand that everything every eye

(01:26:23):
was dotted and t was crossed because lives are at
stake here. But it's like taxpayer dollars. You know, the
government doesn't care where the dollars come from. They don't
have any incentive to be, you know, mindful of where
the money's going because they have this open spigot, and
that creates well, lack of care and concern. Same kind
of parallel, boy, boy, Brian, or have you hit it

(01:26:44):
and let me tell you that, Let me say this
you want to talk about, you know, they talk about
weaponizing the Justice Department against you know people. If you
want to see the weaponization of the justice.

Speaker 4 (01:26:55):
Point, you ought to see how it's been weaponized against
regular people and people who just can't afford to pay
for expensive attorneys, and people who just don't have the resources.
And now, of course we're in days of budgetary restraint,
as we always have, so you know, good luck getting

(01:27:17):
the court to approve money and say things like, well,
you know, we're going to go ahead and do another test,
even though you've already had a test and your results
have been tested in my book, the individual asks for
another test, but it's rejected. It's rejected, and in federal
courts they have something across the country called rocket dockets,

(01:27:41):
and so it's like this, well, guess what, we don't
have time to do another test. There's not going to
be the money given to do another test, and guess what,
you're gonna be in trial on Monday.

Speaker 5 (01:27:55):
So you see, yeah, yeah, yeah, see.

Speaker 6 (01:27:59):
How well I.

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
Didn't practice I didn't practice criminal law. And I understand
where you're coming from, though, because you know, when you're
preparing for a trial, you have a lot of work
on your plate and when and you're a criminal defendant,
a criminal defense attorney, you know again your client's life
is in your hands. I dealt with money matters, and
of course that really is significant to your client, but

(01:28:25):
lives aren't at stake, and so I feel for you, Frank,
I really do. In the book It's the Cock Fight,
It's on my blog page fifty five carse dot com.
I'm my guest today, Frank Abrams. I appreciate your passion
on this subject. It's something near and dear to my heart. Frank,
it's been great having you on the program. I appreciate
your sharing your time and with our listeners and documenting this.
And it is a work of fiction, but Frank will

(01:28:46):
tell you all day long, this is all based on
reality and real quick Frank, in terms of being a
defense attorney, if I wanted a separate DNA test because
I had suspicions about the one that was presented by
the prosecuting attorney, how much would it cost me as
an a separate line item on the legal bill.

Speaker 4 (01:29:03):
Well, first of all, typically they take it takes quite
a long time to do, but it would be in
the many thousands of dollars at least three or four
thousand dollars, and you're going to have to go ahead,
basically and also retain an expert regarding that all to
show that the first test had flaws. So take a

(01:29:27):
guess what that's gone A.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
Put eight hundred plus dollars an hour.

Speaker 4 (01:29:31):
Yeah, yeah, eight hundred plus. You know what an honored
has been to talk to you. It has just been
such an honor to be interviewed. And this book I
wrote came from my heart.

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
I know it did.

Speaker 4 (01:29:45):
And people seem to like this because this is a
book that tells it like.

Speaker 1 (01:29:50):
It is well and again you're outlining in this work
of fiction real parallels to real life and again supporting
my argument that there should be no death from the state. Frank,
keep up the great work. Thanks for joining me on
the morning show, and I'll recomend my listeners. Go to
fifty five carsy dot com and get a copy of
your book, The Cockfight. Welcome to the fifty five Cars
Morning Show. Lee Borden's Lee is with Classical Conversations, but

(01:30:15):
you can find all on Classical Conversations dot com. We're
talking about homeschooling along a classical and faith based way
and a wildly successful operation. It's been welcome to the program, Lee,
it's a real pleasure to have you on today.

Speaker 11 (01:30:29):
Well, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:30:31):
Well, I am obvious, well maybe not obvious to you.
It's first time to speak. But I am very, very
disappointed the state of Americans education, failing grades, passing students
that don't have the skill sets to move on to
the next grade, woke ideology, CRT teaching, gender pronouns that
might fly in the face of, you know, a lot
of people's belief systems, or just simply the notion that

(01:30:51):
in order to just have these conversations which they're having
with very young children, it necessarily involves a discussion of
sex and sexuality, which I've offensive there are ways out
of it. And I talk about homeschooling all the time
in the program. Not that I did it, but we
have a wonderful woman named Ta Shuemak who joins a
program and she's got all the resources. She homeschooled. She
encourages others to do it. Your organization does the same thing.

(01:31:15):
Tell my listeners about classical conversations.

Speaker 11 (01:31:19):
Well, thank you so Classical Conversations is a support organization
for families that are homeschooling. We enroll children in programs,
but the parents attend because the parents are trying to
figure out how to homeschool classically as Christians and in
community when all of us were raised in secular, modern education,

(01:31:42):
and so the parents need a friend, We need to
help one another. So we have over twenty seven hundred
communities across the United States where five to fifty students
and their parents get together one day a week for
half the year and they practice together teaching class school
Christian education. We have a curated curriculum everybody's using, and

(01:32:04):
then they go home and the parent now is better
equipped to help their students through the assignments. And then
they come back the next week and the students work
on what we call the dialectic and rhetoric. There's a
whole lot of interaction and peer activities. You know, you
can see at home and be quiet and think and
write your papers and do your math problems. So when

(01:32:25):
we get together that one day week, the whole purpose
is to have a lot of conversations around the material
and it's all original source documents.

Speaker 1 (01:32:34):
I love that well, I just I'm saying out loud
what I'm thinking, because one of the reservation reservations rather
the people have often or the the retort to, well,
I'm going to educate my child at home, is that
they're going to lack this social interaction and that you know,
it's important for kids to be around other kids and
not just their siblings and mom and dad. So this

(01:32:55):
provides that sort of quote unquote whole in homeschooling that
some perceive to exist.

Speaker 11 (01:33:01):
Yeah, and so you know, I can read Shakespeare plays
with my kids, and we can go over the Declaration
of Independence. But it's a lot more fun when you
do it one day a week with your friends who
are doing the same thing. And besides being fun, it
also makes us so that when it doesn't many seem
important to one kid and they see another kid get
all excited. There's you know, this enthusiasm that can be

(01:33:23):
part of the socialization, you know, and academics and so.
But you don't need to be doing it all day long,
five days a.

Speaker 10 (01:33:29):
Week for most of the year.

Speaker 11 (01:33:31):
It's just not necessary. And so as in scores a
lot of us, I wanted half the year to do
what I want to do with my children, and you
know that's also the time to do delight directive education
as well as maybe you have a child that's ready
to have intensive phonics, or an older student that needs
more algebra help, or you have someone with special needs.
So by meeting half the year together, we have this

(01:33:52):
community based education and then the other half the year
you can focus specifically on your children as individuals.

Speaker 1 (01:33:59):
Lee Morton. She's with and founded Classical Conversations, which you
can check out online at classical conversations dot com. Homeschooling
with a Christian faith based sort of approach to the
whole thing, and that's why I wanted to hold you
over to talk about the surrounding the children with faith

(01:34:19):
elements and belief in Christianity. I trying to draw a
parallel here in my mind. When I think of homeschooling,
I think of the struggles that I, Brian Thomas, might
face teaching my children something like physics. Okay, I don't
remember anything about physics. It's been too long. I've forgotten
what I knew about the science is given that I
didn't need it in my entire practicing law background up

(01:34:42):
and through my now seventeen years in radio, so I
don't know where to turn.

Speaker 12 (01:34:46):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:34:47):
There are resources, of course you have them. That's one
of the reasons you have classical conversations. But pivoting over
to the Christian philosophy that is classical conversations theologians. I'm
not a theologian either, And while you can have a
deeply held belief in Christ, you may not be in
a position to sort of share the message on a

(01:35:09):
theological level. Is that part of the service that you provide.

Speaker 11 (01:35:14):
Yes, So the scriptures tell us we want to raise
our children to have fat souls, because the child who
has filled these things from eternity is able to grow
into an adult that can have delayed gratification. And there's
the world's not all about themselves. And of course what
are we seeing right now is the absence of fat souls,
and so therefore we have fat bodies and indulgence spirits instead.

Speaker 10 (01:35:37):
So you know, when a.

Speaker 7 (01:35:39):
Child knows that they are just a little lower than
the angels, rather than being taught they're a little better
than apes, or if they're taught that they are a
spirit with a body rather than a body with a spirit,
it just.

Speaker 11 (01:35:52):
Makes for a totally different psyche and the human being,
and that's what we're about. We're trying to teach them
that the timeless should affect the timely.

Speaker 1 (01:36:01):
Okay, I get that, and the success has been amazing
for you. Tell my listeners this was you go back
to nineteen ninety seven. My understanding is that you had
your in your home. Eleven teenage boys were you took
on to classically educate? Is that the basis of this
and we're all those teenage boys yours? I don't see
that that's possible.

Speaker 7 (01:36:22):
No, there were girls there too.

Speaker 11 (01:36:24):
What was this three or four families we got together
and said, let's do this rhetorical level of classical education
together because it kind of requires it. And so there
was three moms that hung out. That says, not drop
off problem, I mean program. We're all there, working together,
and within three years we had three hundred students on
the waiting list, and my husband quit work in order

(01:36:46):
to make it a viable company, and he's been with
us ever since, and at this point we have over
one hundred and thirty thousand students just in the United
States enrolled, which the influence of homeschooling. People just don't
really understand so if you consolidated my organization, we would
be the twentiest largest school district in the United States.

(01:37:07):
These parents care and they are powerful because they love
their children so much. And so now the whole world
is clamoring to understand what is classical education and what
I would just like your listeners and though is you're
not going to ever separate classical education from faith and family.
It's not a secular task.

Speaker 1 (01:37:26):
Interesting, now you know one of the things, it's you're proselytizing,
which is a good thing. I atheist Pendulette, I think
made the best argument for proselytizing. If you are a
true believer, and you truly believe that your neighbor who
maybe isn't a Christian is going to be suffering eternal
damnation for their failure to be Christian, you owe it
to them to explain to them why you're worried about them.

(01:37:49):
This element of and I appreciate that that public schools
aren't teaching religion and not a fan of it necessarily
because what type of theologian you get they have in class?
Are they teaching your version of the of the scripture
or someone else's? So I got a problem with that.
But if you're in control of the curriculum and your

(01:38:10):
faith based, you get get to control the narrative. Just
that seems to me like a very big missing component
that public schools can never fill.

Speaker 11 (01:38:21):
Yeah, and that's why, like I'm not for public education
at all. Public education is inherently publicly funded. That's what
makes it public. Therefore it is inherently socialists. And of
course we shouldn't be surprised after six generations of having
compulsory education we have all these Marxists. It's the natural result.
Public school is finally successful at what it was designed

(01:38:42):
to do. Get your kids out. Now we can see what.

Speaker 13 (01:38:46):
It was really all about.

Speaker 1 (01:38:47):
Well, wildly successful organization yours, forty five thousand families serving
now enrolled in programs spread over fifty countries globally. This
is a worldwide success that you've created here.

Speaker 11 (01:39:00):
Yeah, there's we just crossed the ten thousand marks and
the other countries that are in and recognize a lot
of rentalmen's actually fifty countries, and a lot of the
countries are in it's illegal to homeschool. It's illegally even
be a Christian in some of them. So they're underground,
and we're just super happy that we can be helpful
to them.

Speaker 1 (01:39:19):
I love that. I love that underground element, and I
causu I'd be living in a country where you're not
free to pursue your own religion. You're not free to
teach your children. They must go into the public and
doctrination camps. That's one of the things that I think
people are so shortsighted about in America these days, that
the freedoms that we get to enjoy that just don't

(01:39:40):
exist outside of our borders. I'll tell you what, Lee,
I can't thank you enough on behalf of all my
listeners who are going to be looking into this and
perhaps training their children classically in education Classical conversations dot com.
I guess the founder of the organization, Lee Borton's Lee,
it's been a real pleasure and uplifting conversation and very
inspirational as well. I wish you continued success. Liz Wheeler,

(01:40:01):
author of the book We're going to be talking about
today that everybody needs to get hide your children, exposing
the Marxists behind the attack on America's kids. Liz Wheeler
you probably have already heard about her. She is a
very prominent conservative hosts the podcast The Liz Wheeler Show,
author of Tipping Points. How the Top of the Left's
House of Cards, named a top ten thirty under thirty
conservative rising star in twenty ten by Red Alert Politics

(01:40:22):
and profiled by Political Magazine of All Places in twenty eighteen,
is a titan of conservative media. Welcome to the Morning show, Liz.
It is indeed a pleasure to have you on to
talk about your book, Hide Your Children.

Speaker 14 (01:40:33):
Hi, Brian, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:36):
I'm glad I ended up going to law school because
I don't know what I would have done with political
science degree. But having gotten a political science degree undergrad,
I did read Marx, and I'm familiar with Marx's writings
and the teachings. I guess I'm wondering, as you document
an outline in your book, everybody seems to be in
on Marxism, teachers' union, school counselors, planned parenthood, critical race theory,

(01:40:58):
the CDC, American to me, and pediatrics. How is it
that a theory of politics that has been an epic
global failure in every single institution that has endeavored to
embrace it. How does that even have legs in what
is demonstrably the proven winner in terms of political structure,

(01:41:18):
the United States of America.

Speaker 15 (01:41:20):
Well, listen, I'm impressed that you read Karl Marx in college.
Unless they were teaching it as something that was wonderful
and we should aspire to.

Speaker 14 (01:41:27):
You wouldn't see that in the political guide in the
program anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:41:30):
With the type of cost to say, they wouldn't have
you read Marx. They would just talk about it in
generalized terms.

Speaker 14 (01:41:37):
Exactly and call for us to be on that side
of history.

Speaker 15 (01:41:41):
Listen, the type of Marxism that we're seeing in this country,
it is the same as Carl Marx's Marxism in the
sense that the ultimate goal is the same. These people
still want to abolish capitalism, they still want a revolution,
they still want to topple our government, but the way
that they're going about it has changed. Because when Karl
Marx wrote The Communist Matters, so as I'm sure you remember,
he envisioned a global Marxist revolution that didn't really happen.

(01:42:04):
There were some Marxist revolutions, but the global revolution never occurred.
So Marxism went out of fashion politically for a little while.
And it was revived in the twentieth century by an
Italian Marxist, actually by the name of Antonio Gramsi. He
was the co founder of the Italian Communist Party, and
he was put in prison by Mussolini, and he was
studying Marxism while he was in prison, and he recognized

(01:42:26):
that when Marxist revolutions were actually successful, they weren't predicated
on economic discontent. It wasn't the working class that was
overthrowing the ruling class. It was first predicated by the
government or activist organizations working on behalf of government figures,
demolishing or capturing cultural institutions first. And he named these

(01:42:48):
cultural institutions on which the working class rely as the media,
the education system, religious institutions, the law of the nuclear family,
which of course is exactly what we're seeing happen today
here in the United States. These organizations, I argue in
my book that four of the five of them have
already been captured, and the fifth, the Nuclear family, is

(01:43:10):
under assault right now, which is why they're targeting our children.
But these different organizations that we see popping up the
last couple of years around the country, whether it's Black
Lives Matter, whether it's the president of the American Library Association.
These people admit that they hold Marxist ideology. They call
themselves Marxists. Whether it's the Black Lives Matter leaders saying
we are trained Marxists, whether it's Emily Drabinski, the president

(01:43:34):
of the American Library Association, calling herself a lesbian Marxist.

Speaker 14 (01:43:38):
These people are open about their ideology.

Speaker 15 (01:43:40):
It's just a matter of whether we as conservatives, we're
so used to dismissing what they say because they often
lie and propagate fake news. At the same time they articulate,
they verbalize what they're going to do and why.

Speaker 1 (01:43:51):
Well, and as you've illustrated, the history demonstrates that those
who have instituted well what they call Marxist regimes are
not truly Marxist, and that it is an overthrow of
the proletariat or by the workers of the ruling class.
It is a top down thing which always translates into well,

(01:44:12):
the rulers end up living glorious, grand capitalist type lives
while the rest of us all suffer equally. I mean,
it's equal suffering, and they always live the lavish life
they're not sharing. In the Marxist theoretical burden.

Speaker 15 (01:44:27):
That's exactly right, and that's why you can see the
leaders of many of these organizations, whether it's the leaders
of the teachers' unions or the or Black Lives Matter,
or you know, those who are trying to assault homeschooling
or whatever it may be.

Speaker 14 (01:44:40):
Wherever these assaults on our kids are coming from.

Speaker 15 (01:44:42):
Why they're not concerned with the history of communism and
Marxism because they understand that the role that they play
in their communist vision is that of the elite, and
the elite are the ones who escape the inevitable starvation, oppression,
and death. You can look at the Bolshevik Revolution in
Russia as a perfect example of this of both things.

Speaker 14 (01:45:01):
Actually of the elite being.

Speaker 15 (01:45:05):
The ones who were enriched both in power and in money,
but also in the different cultural institutions that were decimated,
whether it was the church, whether the education system, whether
it was freedom of speech, whether it was all of
these freedom of the press, all of these different institutions
were torn down in that first year of the revolution,
which allowed the communist regime or the socialist regime in

(01:45:28):
Bolshevik Russia to be successful. And when I say successful,
I mean to actually exact Marxism, not not to cause prosperity.

Speaker 1 (01:45:36):
Of course, my guess day, Liz Wheel, author of Hide
Your Children, Exposing the marxis behind the attack on America's kids.
Focusing on children what always worries me, and it happened
here in the city of Cincinnati some years ago. The
idea of pre k education sold to people as a
means of allowing oh so women can work well. That
destroys the nuclear family. Women go out to work that
children are then run and raised by the state. There's

(01:45:57):
no opportunity for what my parents would do when over
the dinner table, deprogramming you from the leftism that goes
on in a classroom. I guess we have COVID to
thank for the great awakening that's going on in this
country against public education. Without COVID, we'd still be blindly
sending our kids to school and not having any idea
what's being taught.

Speaker 15 (01:46:17):
It's one of the reasons that I feel encouraged even
as we live in this cultural insanity where boys are
told they can be girls, and girls are told they
can be boys, and white children are told they're racist
and black children are told they' oppressed. I mean, this
is pretty This is madness that we're living in right now.
But I feel encouraged because for the first time, people,
including parents, but it's not just parents, have their eyes open.
We see the reality of the political enemy that's in

(01:46:39):
front of us, and that's never happened before. These attacks
on our children, especially in the education system, aren't new.
We just noticed them, and they might be escalating, but
they've actually the seeds for these attacks have been planted
in our institutions for decades upon decades, and Republicans were
just lively unaware. We had our heads in the sand,
which allowed the capture of these institutions to be success. Well,

(01:47:00):
now parents actually realize what we're up against and it's
not going to We're not going to let the other
side get away with it, which of course is also
why I say at the beginning of my book, we
need to expect escalation because the other side recognizes that
they're time to impose this sort of Marxism on our
society through the formation of our children's minds in the
education system.

Speaker 14 (01:47:21):
They understand that it's now or never. Because we understand
what we are up.

Speaker 1 (01:47:25):
Against, Well, would you say, and I think I'm going
to anticipate, yes, that this whole green energy revolution, in
this carbon crap is designed to kneecappus economically and make
a force capitulation by the American well, our system of government.
I mean, what they can accomplish through political activism and
through elections, they're going to accomplish through regulation and wealth

(01:47:47):
redistribution via the tax code.

Speaker 14 (01:47:49):
Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker 15 (01:47:50):
And there's an additional factor too that makes it worse,
and that's the ESG score, the Environmental, Social and Governance metrics.
I talk about this a little bit in my book,
which some people ask why because they're like, what does
this have to do with a tax on children?

Speaker 11 (01:48:03):
Well, I'll tell you.

Speaker 15 (01:48:04):
These ESG scores are essentially the same as the Chinese
Social credit score system, where you are ranked based on
your adherents to a communist ideology. In China, it's on
an individual basis as well as corporations. Here in the
United States, it hasn't quite trickled down to individuals yet,
although they intend to. Right now, it just ranks businesses.
But these businesses, if they want access to capital, if

(01:48:24):
they want access to loans, if they want access to
the marketplace, Essentially they have to propagate leftist ideologies and
leftist agenda items, whether this is paying for their employees
to travel out of state for abortions, whether this is
DEI offices, whatever it might be, these very leftist causes,
whether it's commitment to going fossil fuel free, curbon neutral,

(01:48:45):
that kind of nonsense which we know is unrealistic and harmful.
They're locked into propagating these agendas because they have to
pursue their ESG score if they want to participate in
the marketplace. And the way that this impacts our children,
the way that this harms our children, and is you know,
look at bud light, look at target these different places
that we're targeting target especially with targeting our children.

Speaker 14 (01:49:07):
With queer theory, are small children.

Speaker 15 (01:49:10):
And even amidst the backlash from consumers and the boycott
that is continuing to ensue very successfully, I might add,
they are not going to change their course, not because
the people at the top of you know, in New
York executive boardroom are committed Marxists, but because they can't.
If they do reverse course, if they do recant this,
they will have their esg's or a doct and it

(01:49:31):
will hurt them in the marketplace. So until we add
a society this can be done at the state level
or the federal level, use the just authority of government
to ban ESG. Then we're not going to be able
to stop the corporate wocus and that's targeting our children.

Speaker 1 (01:49:46):
So from where do the ESG scores come? Who is
the lord and master over assigning an ESG score? And
I suppose the banks have a tremendous amount to do
with this, given that that's the lending in the financial
connection that you're saying, Well, the reason corporations are even
bothering with ESG you're paying attention to their score might be,
is because they're being denied access to capital. Well, denying

(01:50:08):
access to capital to otherwise successful businesses is not in
a bank's best interest either, So how is it that
there's been so much business capitulation when this is harmful
to the whole idea of commerce?

Speaker 15 (01:50:23):
Well, as you rightly note, the enforcers of ESG are
the biggest banking institutions in our country. So two examples
would be Black Rock and Bank of America. These institutions
control much of the capital in the marketplace when it
comes to loans or entering the marketplace.

Speaker 14 (01:50:39):
And they are committed to these ESG scores.

Speaker 15 (01:50:42):
They are part of, you know, that annual World Economic
Forum gathering where many of these ideas come from. The
World Economic Forum actively calls for a redefinition of capitalism.
They of course want to transform our capitalist system. They
call it shareholder capitalism, which there's just another term for
free market capitalism. They want to transform it into stakeholder capitalism. Now,

(01:51:05):
stakeholder capitalism isn't capitalism. They're just trying to retain the
words so that people are confused. But stakeholder capitalism is
this authoritarian system where sure there are elements of the
free market that are allowed to reign just enough so
that businesses can be kind of successful like they are
in China, But at the end of the day, these businesses,
while not technically owned by the government, are controlled by

(01:51:28):
government ideology. That's essentially what the role that these big
banks are serving in ESG. But the people behind the ESG,
the people whose idea it was, are people like klau
Schwab in the World Economic Forum, people like organizations like
the United Nations, who don't believe in free countries, don't
believe in a capitalist society, they too pursue, just like

(01:51:50):
the original Markist, the abolition of communism and the imposition
of a communist economy, knowing of course that they will
hold the power and the money and not suffer any
of the devastation or death.

Speaker 1 (01:52:00):
Le's Wheeler author Hid Your Children, exposing the Marxist behind
the attack on America's kids and in turning before we
part company today and this has been just an amazing conversation,
an amazing book, Liz Wheeler. It seems though that another
component of this COVID revelation is the idea that I
think everybody of any political strike, with the exception of
people who are die hard Unions or Marxists, everybody wants
the opportunity to send their children a better school. The

(01:52:22):
public schools. I mean, look at Baltimore. They can't find
a kid who can read at grade level. They are
dumbing down our children to the point where they they're
just going to become what reliant on government because they
won't able to feed themselves. They won't question this ideology
because they don't they lack critical thinking skills. That seems
to be a goal of the public education system is
to produce a bunch of idiots that will be useful

(01:52:44):
to the cause.

Speaker 14 (01:52:46):
That's exactly right.

Speaker 15 (01:52:47):
I mean, I have a fairly based viewpoint on the
public school system in this day and age. I'm not
sure why one would send a child to the public
school system. I understand why some people feel that they
don't have a choice, but it's producing academically the fish students,
socially stunted students. Half of schools aren't even safe for
either bullying, gang related activities, or school shooters. Ideologically, they

(01:53:09):
are assaulted at every turn with Marxist ideology. There's no
reason that we should be sending our children collectively.

Speaker 14 (01:53:15):
To the public school system.

Speaker 15 (01:53:16):
And this is actually one of the most interesting pieces
of information I came across in the course of researching
my book. The public school system in America didn't become
mandatory until eighteen fifty two. Massachusetts was the first state
to make it compulsory, and the reason they did was
because there was an influx of immigrants coming to our
country at the time, particularly Catholic immigrants, and the Protestant
politicians in charge of Massachusetts wanted to indoctrinate the immigrant

(01:53:40):
children in American values so that they would be loyal
to America first versus the country of their birth, and
in Protestant values because of the centuries old battles between
Protestants and Catholics, and I realized our education system actually
is supposed to be an indoctrination center.

Speaker 14 (01:53:55):
That's what it's supposed to do. We oftentimes associate.

Speaker 15 (01:53:58):
In doctrination negatively because of what the Democrats are indoctriating
our children with. But I challenge conservatives to think of
indoctrination as morally neutral, to take back this institution and
actually start teaching children not just this neutral idea of reading, writing,
and arithmetic, but to understand that there's really no such
thing as neutrality. Either the Democrats are going to be

(01:54:19):
teaching their ideologies to our children, or we Republicans are
going to be imparting American values in Judeo Christian morals.
And if we don't reorient our thinking away from neutrality
and understand that was the purpose of our public school
as an institution to actually train children and what's right
and what's wrong, then we're going to continue to lose
this fight.

Speaker 1 (01:54:40):
Loz Wheeler just been fantastic Kevin in the program, all
the emails and texts are coming in. They love what
you're saying. They're going to get a copy of your book.
Hide your children, which they can easily do. Liz, write
on my blog page, but if you have caresy dot
com to be a link there, please buy it, forward
it to your friends, let them or you to get
your kids out of public education until we can write
this ship and turn it back to what it used
to be. Liz, thank you for your time, and thank

(01:55:01):
you for what you're doing for America and writing this book.
Retired United States Marine Corps Colonel Eric Bure by way
of background, native California. We won't hold that again to
Eric spent his formative years in rural New England before
graduating from Ohio Wesleyan University with a degree in economics.
He then accepted a commission from the Marine Corps, trained
to fly attack helicopters, which we'll be talking about here

(01:55:22):
in a moment. His deployments took it to the Persian Gulf, Samalia, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan.
Later served on the staff of the Chairman of the
Joints Chiefs, as Professor of National Security Strategy and Policy
at the National War College, and as an Air Group
Commanding Officer, currently Senior executive for Aviation and Training Company.
Also a consultant public speaker in areas of military and
commercial aviation and global conflict. Welcome to the program, and

(01:55:46):
God bless you for your service to our country. Colonel
Eric Buwer. It's great to have you on today.

Speaker 6 (01:55:52):
Good morning, Hey, great to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:55:53):
Appreciate that and the reason you're here. Ghosts of Baghdad
Marine Corps gunships. On the opening days of the Iraq War,
you flew a Cobra attack helicopter. Is that the name
of the helicopter you flew?

Speaker 16 (01:56:08):
That's correct, Yeah, Bell h Ones so them for a
goody plus years now.

Speaker 1 (01:56:16):
The helicopter, I remember the one that was just chock
full of all kinds of armaments and armaments and everything.
That that's the Blackhawk. Is what's the difference between a
Cobra and a black Hawk before we dive into what
you have been through.

Speaker 6 (01:56:26):
Sure, so, a Cobra's an attack helicopter. You'll see, it's cannon, missiles, rockets,
all the things you'd expect.

Speaker 16 (01:56:35):
It's it's closely associated with the Armies Apache, which is
also an attack helicopter.

Speaker 1 (01:56:41):
All right, Now, the first question I've got to ask you,
because I've seen a lot of war movies in my time.
I did not serve our country, so I do not
know what the what combat is like. And I'm just
thoroughly impressed anybody who's been through that. But how in
the hell do you manage to fly into these unbelievably
hence the fields of battle and not get shot down?

(01:57:04):
Think with modern armaments these days, drones and rockets and
you know, shoulder launched missiles, how is it you avoid
getting shot down? It seems like it will be such
an easy target to hit.

Speaker 16 (01:57:15):
You know, we're trying to think about that too. No,
it's uh, you know, we do our best, and we
have great training. Uh, there's great air crews, there's great
maintenance crews. On this deployment, the vast majority of our
aircraft were hit by enemy fire. It's it's it's a
it's a real good study of the enemy and what

(01:57:37):
they're doing, how they're doing. Uh, and then our tactics
that try to keep us out of the most likely
scenarios where we could be, you know, really heavily engaged
by the enemies.

Speaker 6 (01:57:47):
So and then, by the grace of God, right, and
you just you find a way that you find a
way to.

Speaker 16 (01:57:52):
Learn lessons each day, each night, and then you put
those lessons to practice the next day, and you hope
you're a little smarter, you hope you a little.

Speaker 6 (01:57:58):
Better and uh, and then roll the dice for Quartane.

Speaker 1 (01:58:02):
Now is a helicopter? I mean, I think about D
Day and what the landscape might have been completely different
if we had helicopters supporting those arriving on the on
the beaches of Normandy. But in terms of your the
military's practice of the helicopter, is it is it an
advanced thing that the helicopters would go in? Is it
used this follow up support after ground troops have moved in?

(01:58:23):
Is a combination the above depending upon the mission and
what what kind of role does the helicopter play in
any given combat?

Speaker 6 (01:58:32):
Great question, So the role of the cobra, We'll do
a little bit of both.

Speaker 16 (01:58:36):
So in a scenario similar to D Day, you would
send in in the day there they send an aircraft
and they send in your mustangs or thunderbolts.

Speaker 6 (01:58:46):
To attack, you know, targets on the beach.

Speaker 16 (01:58:48):
They'd use artillery from ships to again attack targets on
the beach, we would be that artillery.

Speaker 6 (01:58:54):
We would be those thunderbolts and mustangs. So we go in.

Speaker 16 (01:58:57):
Some we go in prior uh to work on what
we call the pre plant targets. And as marines, most importantly,
as marines go in, we are right there with them.
So we're close air support and wherever those marines go,
we go with them. That our primary mission.

Speaker 1 (01:59:14):
Well, given the theaters of of action, you saw Persian
golf smelling of Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, all of them very
very dangerous. How many missions did you fly, sir, during
your service to our country While you're behind the stick,
if I may use that term, I don't know he's
lost track.

Speaker 6 (01:59:35):
No, it wasn't lost track. You just at some point
you care.

Speaker 16 (01:59:39):
At some point it just doesn't matter anymore because what
you're doing is so important. It's so important really for
those marines and sailors in particularly we support. So yeah,
really long long, long, stopping about me or about us
in aviation. It really it really is always about those
marines that were supporting.

Speaker 1 (01:59:57):
Well, the name of the book goes to bag Dag
Marine Corps gunship on the opening days of the Iraq War,
and you notice I emphasize opening days. Why did you
focus on the opening days? Because clearly, with your years
of service, I imagine there's like four or five books
worth of material you could pass along.

Speaker 6 (02:00:13):
So the opening days it really what I wanted to
do in this book in particular, was it was It's
been in my brain for a while. Is it's just
capture Really what is the first twenty five plus days
of the Warner Rocks.

Speaker 16 (02:00:28):
So it begins the opening night, and it really lets
the reader and lets step into the cockpit, close the
campig unless I walked through a door that was otherwise closed.
And whether you like me or not, you've got to
spend twenty five plus days with my cock in my cockpit,
and you see the world through my lens. But the
book is not about me, You'll quickly realize. It's about everybody.

(02:00:52):
It's about my copilot, it's about my wingment, it's about
squadron mates, it's about rains on the grounds. It's really
my opportunity to tell a story, an untold story. So
I feel pretty pretty blessed, pretty privileged for the opportunity
to do it.

Speaker 1 (02:01:07):
Well, I'm blessed and privilege for the opportunity to talk
to you about the book, and my producer has already
added your book to my blog page if you have
cares dot com, so they can easily get a copy
of that. I've got a lot of folks in my
listening audience who are either served in the military, veterans,
they have members that are currently serving or have served,
And of course my show is dedicated and committed anything
I can do to help America's military. You mentioned the

(02:01:28):
Marines on the ground. How much did you rely on
ground support information data fed to you real time while
you're in the helicopter or is this sort of just
deal with it as you approach it kind of thing.
Perhaps a combination of both. Again, having never been been
there and done that, I'm kind of curious about that.

Speaker 6 (02:01:48):
So it is a combination both.

Speaker 16 (02:01:50):
So the folks from the ground have a great idea
that they know exactly what's happening, they know the type
of enemy they're dealing with, and in our case, at
a very tactical level, every marine, every marine unit from
the company size up as it has a will be
on a ground controller and they're passion this information. You know,
minute by minute what they're seeing simultaneously, we're painting the

(02:02:11):
picture for them on the ground what we see, and
then together that builds, that builds a little bit of
an insight for us, a little a little bit of awareness.

Speaker 6 (02:02:20):
And hopefully allows us to do a better jobs for you.

Speaker 4 (02:02:23):
Then things happened so quickly.

Speaker 6 (02:02:26):
There is no perfect intelligence, there's no intelligence. What's happening
to block away two blocks away. It's us that are
cheaping that.

Speaker 16 (02:02:34):
It's us to understand it best, and then we're trusted
to make the best decisions we.

Speaker 1 (02:02:38):
Can well demonstrable badassery. I can't thank you enough for
your service for our country. USMC Retired Colonel Eric Viewer
of the book Ghosts of Bagdad Marine Corps Gunships on
the opening as of Rock War get a copy of
fifty five carsy dot com. Thanks again for your service, Colonel.
It has been a real pleasure talking with you, and
I know everybody's going to enjoy the book. I'm happy
to welcome with the FT five Cares Morning Show. Ilo

(02:03:00):
Creed Days an American author. He's written under a multiple
pen names. He has sold over one point four million books.
He's received multiple Gold medals for novels and been a
Best selling many times over author. Today, we're gonna be
talking about the book Plunged the Three Worlds. It's book
one Three Worlds described as Christian sci fi series. Shiloh,

(02:03:22):
Welcome to the fifty five KRSEE Morning Show. Thanks for
showing up.

Speaker 13 (02:03:26):
Hey, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:03:28):
Now, I'm confused Christian sci fi series. That's sort of
an interesting melding of mediums, I guess. Or I'm just
trying to figure out how Christianity and science fiction go
hand in hand. Obviously that's what the book is all about.
But how did you get the inspiration for this particular
book and the idea of merging sci fi and christian theme.

Speaker 13 (02:03:50):
Well, it's been a long journey. I've written thirty eight novels,
but this one has been over ten years in the making,
so I've had a lot of revisions and it's been
quite a journey. But you know, have you ever heard
of the Philadelphia Project?

Speaker 8 (02:04:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 13 (02:04:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we go there too. So a
big part of the book is kind of based on
the Philadelphia Project, which is considered a conspiracy theory, I
guess now, So yeah, we've got conspiracy theories, sci fi
and spiritual thriller all wrapped up into one. So Plunge
is the story of Jacob Carter who is forced into

(02:04:29):
a military experiment which causes him to jump into the
spiritual side of our world, where instead of seeing the physical,
he's actually experiencing spiritual things. So it's his journey of
discovering who he really is as a navy feel he's
very strong, capable and smart, but in the spirit he
discovers his true self is not all he wants it

(02:04:52):
to be. So it's a super fun journey.

Speaker 1 (02:04:55):
So this spiritual realm that he finds himself in, I
guess my understanding is that there's a a cloaking device
that puts him into this spiritual realm. Now is this
a spiritual realm?

Speaker 9 (02:05:06):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (02:05:06):
Is it evil?

Speaker 5 (02:05:07):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (02:05:08):
I means he is? He is he attacked? I mean,
because if it's spiritual, there's no physical nature going on.
I'm thinking, like, you couldn't get into a gunfight in
the spiritual world. I mean, does he come under some
threat or and how is his spirituality tested?

Speaker 11 (02:05:22):
For sure?

Speaker 13 (02:05:22):
Yeah, a lot of threats. There's definitely an action adventure book,
so there's a fight scenes throughout, but in the spirit
the enemy is a lion, and he is being hunted.
Jacob is being hunted throughout the whole book, and it's
his journey to figure out, you know what biblically does
he have? What what can he do to protect himself

(02:05:44):
and to change things and to keep himself from you know,
from the enemy there. So, yeah, plunge is definitely man.
I tell people when to pick it up. I say,
brace yourself because in the physical world, when he jumps
back into the physical he is facing super soldiers. They're
putting him against super soldiers to see if they can

(02:06:06):
the government can use the knowledge that he gained in
the spirit. So yeah, fights in both worlds.

Speaker 1 (02:06:10):
I guess is the lion a metaphor or is it
a true lion? I'm thinking like the Lion, the Witch
and the Wardrobe, which many point two is maybe a
dominant Christian theme if you read those series of books.
But in this particular book, is that is that sort
of a Is that like an homage to the lion
the witch in the War about Wardrobe in some way?

Speaker 13 (02:06:29):
No, maybe more to scripture. You know, the Bible says
that the enemy goes about like a roaring lion, so
it is I fund definitely has a lot of allegorical content.
So you know, the more that you get into it,
the more I think things that will pop out to
you as you read the book.

Speaker 1 (02:06:47):
There was a book designed to test people's faith or
to you know, affirm it in some way.

Speaker 13 (02:06:53):
Oh, definitely to a ferment. When I was thirty two,
I had major heart trouble, and this book was really
born out of my struggle to find faith and to
find divine healing, which thank God I have received here.
I am so yeah. Plunge is definitely a spiritual journey,

(02:07:14):
and its purpose is to strengthen, encourage, and kind of
wake up the church and people who are maybe seeking
God but haven't seen any of his power. They haven't
seen the life that they expected to see from that relationship.

Speaker 1 (02:07:29):
How about that? So I think you've already answered the question,
But who did you write this book for? I can
certainly understand that now. I guess you went through this
challenge yourself. Was it one of those moments when you
felt like God had kind of given up on you
or turned his back on you in some way, shape
or form. Because I know a lot of people struggle
with that sort of harsh reality of the world when
they experience times of trouble or maybe in your case,

(02:07:53):
health problems crop up like a cancer diagnosis or something.

Speaker 13 (02:08:00):
Definitely a dark time, but it was also a time
of hope because I had made the complete decision for
myself to trust God's words. So I didn't see any doctors,
I didn't do anything else. I I just went to
the Lord. And so although it was difficult, I think
the biggest thing that I had to do was unlearned

(02:08:22):
things that I thought about God. And I had to
go to the Bible and discover what did God actually
say about himself? And then I had to believe that
instead of all of the things that I had spent
my life believing before.

Speaker 1 (02:08:37):
Fair enough, Now, this is the first book and what
is called the Three Worlds Christian sci fi series? King
real quick, I guess, have the other books been written
already and we're just waiting to release them after this
one's gone out, or are you still working on them?
And what also is the Three Worlds? What does initial
cap three worlds Christian refer to.

Speaker 13 (02:08:57):
Sure three worlds refers to heaven or and Hell. So
the book kind of spans all three realms, and the
series definitely does. I'm actually sitting here in front of
my computer editing Book two. It is scheduled to release,
I believe in July, and it is up on pre
order right now.

Speaker 2 (02:09:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 13 (02:09:15):
So as the series progresses, we definitely get into end
Times themes. There starts in book two and in book
three is full on end time revelation type stuff.

Speaker 6 (02:09:30):
Wow.

Speaker 13 (02:09:30):
That's extremely fun series.

Speaker 1 (02:09:33):
That sounds very interesting to say the least. And I
know my listeners will be very interested in getting copy
of your book. So what we've done is, Shiloh, put
your book up on my blog page fifty five care
se dot com with a link to purchase a copy,
and I'll encourage my listeners to check that out. Sounds fascinating. Shiloh,
create a real pleasure having on the program this morning,
and keep up the great work. Obviously, you are an

(02:09:54):
inspired writer with thirty one books under your belt. I
just can't imagine.

Speaker 13 (02:09:59):
Oh, thank you so so much for having me.

Speaker 11 (02:10:00):
I appreciate it been.

Speaker 1 (02:10:01):
A real pleasure. Take care seven thirty eight fifty five
k RC The Talk Station