Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How you can support We've got people talking the opinions
of the middle age ill on America is ridiculous. On
fifty five KARC the talk station.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Eight oh five, the fifty five KRCD Talk station Havepy
Friday Eve looking forward to the bottom. They are as
always I heard. Media aviation expert Jay Ratlis joins the
program on Thursdays at e thirty. In the meantime, I'm
always happy to talk to folks from the Buck Eye Institute.
You can find them online at Buckeyeinstitute dot org. Join
me this morning, Jay Carson, senior litigator for the Buckeye
(00:33):
Institute with a really troubling case he's working on, and
let me start. Jay Carson, welcome back to the fifty
five KRC Morning Show to thank you and the Buckeye
Institute for doing well helping out the little guys. Really,
what this boils down to having been in litigation for
sixteen years and it's been a while. I've been eighteen
years out of practice, but still keep my license. I
know how expensive it is, and folks like Nicole Little
(00:55):
John there is no way in God's green Earth she
could afford to go out in independently higher tain counsel
and fight against her former union who continues to take
money out of her paycheck for union dues for a
union that she doesn't belong with. Jay Carson, Welcome to
the Morning Show. It's great having you on.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Thank you happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Just you know, God bless the work you do, because
you know, let me ask you real quick, just a
parenthetical question. I know the hourly rate for lawyers is
way across the spectrum. I mean, you may hire somebody
for two hundred bucks an hour, and then there are
lawyers out there in the world that charge more than
one thousand dollars an hour. And I just want to see,
what's the largest hourly rate you've ever run across in
your in your work with the buck Anstitute or elsewhere
(01:35):
in your legal practice.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Jay, Oh, the largest that I've run across. I guess
you know we do running the folks more of the
big city on the coast. Yeah, we charged those nine
hundred thousand dollars an hour rates. But what we do
with buck guy is we take these cases pro bono
pro bono, so folks who want to challenge them are
(01:59):
out of pending.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And that's what's so damn important about the Bucker Institute
and other similar organizations who will fight the good fight
on behalf of these outrageous factual scenarios. Let's start with
the background on this. When you represent Nicole little John,
my understanding is in June twenty twenty two, she quit
the afl CIO union that she belonged to. She's a
hospital employee. She notified them and they accepted her resignation,
(02:24):
but they keep taking dues out of her paycheck.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, so what happens actually this is this is the
second time around she distractor break the union. She said, listen,
no thanks, I'm this is not for me and I
don't want to pay dues anymore. And look, you've got
an absolute constitutional rate not to join a union. Screenpoint
said that decades ago. And then in twenty eighteen, in
(02:52):
a case called Aganis the Screamport said, you know what,
and the union can't make you pay if you're a
public union member, the union can't make you pay what
they call association for these fair share fees whatever you
want to call them, which were essentially the same thing
as union dus. What happened after Janice was a whole
(03:13):
lot of folks said, yeah, I've had it with this.
I don't support what the union's doing with my money.
I want to and keep this in my own paycheck
because I'm not seeing any services coming from the union.
And a case out of the Ninth Circuit in California
came out said, well, yeah, they'll go up. Belk out
(03:35):
can apply if you were already out of the union
and if you never joined it in the first place.
But you know, if you signed up and signed a
contract that says I'm going to be a member for
so many years, then you have to still keep paying
even though you can you can quit for constitutional purposes,
right the union won't send you the newsletter or whatever
services they will get over bucket, but you're still going
(03:56):
to keep paying dues. And it's like it's like the
gym membership that you can't get out of. Right, Yeah,
that's that's really sort of what this is.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, I immediately thought the word that came to my
mind is is theft? Like this you could make an
argument to a prosecutor that this is actual theft. I mean,
you have a civil case involving this little John, and
you see the American Federation of State counting in thisbal employees.
I get that, but I mean seriously, if they went
over and they just pulled money out of her purses,
it sat on her desk, you could get them in
(04:26):
front of a judge on theft grounds.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Well, so the tath we've taken on this right because
the federal court said, Hey, this is a contract issue.
That's that's what this case out of the Ninth Circuit
said a couple of years ago and said, look, this
is this is not about free speech anymore like Janice was.
This is just about a contract. And you know, somebody
could waive their their constitutional rights through a contract, happening
(04:53):
every day. But this is not a job for the
federal courts to be looking at from a First Amendment perspective.
So what we did with with miss Littlegog's case in
another case uh in Ohio Darling that we've got depending
for the High Supreme Court right now, as we said, okay, uh,
then let's take a look at is this a valid contract? Right?
(05:14):
Let's go back to basic Ohio contract law. What's the
federal courts are saying? That's what we ought to do
and say, look, this isn't a valid contract because one
you didn't tell me what I was signing up for.
U two, I'm not getting anything in return. Uh three.
I you know, I was sort of forced into this.
Or there's a what's what's called uh you know, a
liquidated damages that are that are unfairly unrelated to the
(05:37):
actual damage that someone might get. Right, So we raised
all these these contractual claims and defenses, and the first
thing that had happened because of this Darling case was so,
well you got to go first to the State Employee
Relations fort.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
So so that's like that is that like the court
of original jurisdiction for these labor issues.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Well, you know, so this is this is again I
don't want to get too much into the weeds, but
but there's this jurisdictional fight of so you know, federally,
you tried to bring the cases in federal court. They
said no, no, this is state contract actor. Right. We
brought a contract case in that Darland case I mentioned,
and that court said no, no, you got to go
to this board first because it might be an unfair
(06:19):
labor practice. And you know, again it's not it's contract No,
I know, it says right there, you know, And so
we go to the State Employment Relations Board and they
say this is not an unfair labor practice Act, which
we knew all alonge. Uh So now we said, okay, finally,
now we're going to go to uh Common Police Court
(06:42):
and say please rule this contract. And so that's that's
sort of the games that we've been playing, right, It's
kind of this whack a mole of where can you
even bring this this claim?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You illustrate my am, I pointed at the outset wonderfully.
If they're trying to wage a battle of attrition, it's
like law fair and I've been involved in this. I
practice in Chicago Salt Earth litigation was by directive. Some
of the type of litigation we practice make their lives
miserable and see if we can push them into a
financial situation where they aren't going to want to keep
(07:12):
throwing money at the case. That's a fair play in litigation.
It sucks, but that's one of the reasons it's so
damn expensive. That's what they're doing them, is Little John.
That's the importance of the Buckeye Institute, because okay, we
got to play this game. You will play this game
on behalf of someone who could never afford to play it,
so they make you go through the hoop of going
in front of SERB. Fine, they throw it out and
say it's not a this isn't a labor practice, it
(07:34):
is a contractual issue. You're kind of back to square
wo when you find your suit in Hamilton County Common
Police Court.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yep, exactly. And look the other thing that's that's troubling
about the nature of these cases and the big scheme
of things. They're kind of nickel on dime, right. You
know the total that miss little John is seeking in
compensation of money that she got to be paid back
at after she west to union, it's about two thousand bucks.
(08:03):
And again and for the hire a lawyer to go
after two thousand bucks, there's just no way that makes
sense economically, especially in these cases where I think the
unions tend to uh for the just the purpose. You
know again they're they're they're well funded, uh and keep
establishing the principle that you know they they're not gonna
pay and you're gonna be stuck in this contract for
(08:26):
another uh. You know, in most cases, right, you have
this opt out date and it can be depending on
your your collective Barney agreement a year or a couple
of years in the future where you're still stuck paying
those dues. So I think they mostly look at, Okay, look,
we'll keep everybody in and people aren't going to fight
(08:47):
this because we'll figure out what's what's the point for
a couple hundred bucks, a couple of thousand bucks for
another another year, another two years. Uh, it's not worth
me spending the money to do it. But but the
thing is, you know, while they're doing that, they're they're
taking your money and using it for purposes that that
you don't want it used for. And that's a that's
a problem under a constitution.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
But the consideration for the contractual relationship, she pays money
and gets union representation along with the materials and the
emails and whatever. They accepted her resignation. They didn't say, no,
you have a contract that lasts for X number of time,
we will not accept your resignation. Wait for the contract
to expire and don't renew it, and then a relationship
is over. But the if they accepted her resignation and
(09:31):
she's no longer in the loop anymore than the consideration
that formed the basis for the contract has disappeared exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yep, that's yeah, you got it. You could you could
come back to practice, right, Yeah, that's exactly an argument.
It's one thing if you say, Okay, you're stuck with this,
but you're still going to begin in the magazine or
the Benefits or whatever you'd subscribe to. But no, in
this case, you got she received the letter from the
(10:00):
and saying, uh, sorry to see you go. We'll please
consider coming back. UH. And you know you can't vote
in union elections and you can't do this. You can't
do this, You've lost all these rates. Uh. And in
the meantime, we're going to keep collecting the money.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
How pervasive is.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
That's that's that's the thing that's just sort of ludicrous.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
That absolutely is How pervasive is this practice? I mean,
is it just the A f l C, I O
or other unions doing the unions doing the same thing.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Are there?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Is she been being treated exactly like everyone else in
her situation?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I would I would tend to say, you know, it
varies from from UH union to union. I would say,
most of the public again, this this applies just to
public sector unions, right, UH have adopted these same type practices. Now,
in my experience in liigating for buck Eye, we've had
a number of cases where we've been able to either
(10:55):
before filing suit or after filing suit, reach out to
the union uh, and they will be reasonable and say, yeah, look,
because you know the warriors who are representing them saying
the amount of money that's worth a year, it's just
not worth the fight. Plus there's the chance that they
might get unfavorable precedent. Right. So we've been able to
settle a good number of these cases. But sometimes we
(11:19):
get ones that the union is digging the heals in
and you know, is not willing to settle. And this
is one of those cases.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Well, since you're now in Hamilton County Common Police Court
and of course they continue to fight this all the
way up potentially the Hio Supreme Court, where I think
the odds, given the makeup of the court are pretty
substantial that you're going to win. Ultimately, you think this
will also settle, settle in the final analysis or refunder
money and maybe even pay you your attorney's fees.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Jay, We'll see, we'll see. My sense is on the
attorney s fee, this is sort of downside, right if
we were making the constitutional claim in federal court. You know,
we would have a a stechered rate to play in
the attorney sees under just a plain old greach of contract.
In case you dealt right, you know we'll running up
(12:11):
the flag pole.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Got to give it a shot. Jay Carson, Senior litigator
with the Buck Eye Institute. Help them out. I mean,
you can donate and help these wonderful organizations out. I
see it right there red donate button on your website
Buckeyeinstitute dot org. Jay Carson, thank you on behalf of
I know Ms. Little John probably really truly appreciates what
you're doing for her, But you're doing this for all
the union members out our former union members out there,
(12:33):
fighting this good fight and hopefully getting some established precedent
that is in favor of those who quit and letting
them keep the damn money that they're entitled to keep.
Keep it up, Jake, Thanks very much for the time
you spent today bringing my listeners up to speed on
this and what you were doing at the Buckeye Institute.
Thanks for having me my pleasure, my friend eighteen for
you bu Kcity Talks. They to stick around. We've got
(12:54):
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installation dot net. Fifty five KRC
How you can support We've got people talking the opinions
of the middle age ill on America is ridiculous. On
fifty five KARC the talk station.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Eight oh five, the fifty five KRCD Talk station Havepy
Friday Eve looking forward to the bottom. They are as
always I heard. Media aviation expert Jay Ratlis joins the
program on Thursdays at e thirty. In the meantime, I'm
always happy to talk to folks from the Buck Eye Institute.
You can find them online at Buckeyeinstitute dot org. Join
me this morning, Jay Carson, senior litigator for the Buckeye
(00:33):
Institute with a really troubling case he's working on, and
let me start. Jay Carson, welcome back to the fifty
five KRC Morning Show to thank you and the Buckeye
Institute for doing well helping out the little guys. Really,
what this boils down to having been in litigation for
sixteen years and it's been a while. I've been eighteen
years out of practice, but still keep my license. I
know how expensive it is, and folks like Nicole Little
(00:55):
John there is no way in God's green Earth she
could afford to go out in independently higher tain counsel
and fight against her former union who continues to take
money out of her paycheck for union dues for a
union that she doesn't belong with. Jay Carson, Welcome to
the Morning Show. It's great having you on.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Thank you happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Just you know, God bless the work you do, because
you know, let me ask you real quick, just a
parenthetical question. I know the hourly rate for lawyers is
way across the spectrum. I mean, you may hire somebody
for two hundred bucks an hour, and then there are
lawyers out there in the world that charge more than
one thousand dollars an hour. And I just want to see,
what's the largest hourly rate you've ever run across in
your in your work with the buck Anstitute or elsewhere
(01:35):
in your legal practice.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Jay, Oh, the largest that I've run across. I guess
you know we do running the folks more of the
big city on the coast. Yeah, we charged those nine
hundred thousand dollars an hour rates. But what we do
with buck guy is we take these cases pro bono
pro bono, so folks who want to challenge them are
(01:59):
out of pending.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And that's what's so damn important about the Bucker Institute
and other similar organizations who will fight the good fight
on behalf of these outrageous factual scenarios. Let's start with
the background on this. When you represent Nicole little John,
my understanding is in June twenty twenty two, she quit
the afl CIO union that she belonged to. She's a
hospital employee. She notified them and they accepted her resignation,
(02:24):
but they keep taking dues out of her paycheck.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, so what happens actually this is this is the
second time around she distractor break the union. She said, listen,
no thanks, I'm this is not for me and I
don't want to pay dues anymore. And look, you've got
an absolute constitutional rate not to join a union. Screenpoint
said that decades ago. And then in twenty eighteen, in
(02:52):
a case called Aganis the Screamport said, you know what,
and the union can't make you pay if you're a
public union member, the union can't make you pay what
they call association for these fair share fees whatever you
want to call them, which were essentially the same thing
as union dus. What happened after Janice was a whole
(03:13):
lot of folks said, yeah, I've had it with this.
I don't support what the union's doing with my money.
I want to and keep this in my own paycheck
because I'm not seeing any services coming from the union.
And a case out of the Ninth Circuit in California
came out said, well, yeah, they'll go up. Belk out
(03:35):
can apply if you were already out of the union
and if you never joined it in the first place.
But you know, if you signed up and signed a
contract that says I'm going to be a member for
so many years, then you have to still keep paying
even though you can you can quit for constitutional purposes,
right the union won't send you the newsletter or whatever
services they will get over bucket, but you're still going
(03:56):
to keep paying dues. And it's like it's like the
gym membership that you can't get out of. Right, Yeah,
that's that's really sort of what this is.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, I immediately thought the word that came to my
mind is is theft? Like this you could make an
argument to a prosecutor that this is actual theft. I mean,
you have a civil case involving this little John, and
you see the American Federation of State counting in thisbal employees.
I get that, but I mean seriously, if they went
over and they just pulled money out of her purses,
it sat on her desk, you could get them in
(04:26):
front of a judge on theft grounds.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Well, so the tath we've taken on this right because
the federal court said, Hey, this is a contract issue.
That's that's what this case out of the Ninth Circuit
said a couple of years ago and said, look, this
is this is not about free speech anymore like Janice was.
This is just about a contract. And you know, somebody
could waive their their constitutional rights through a contract, happening
(04:53):
every day. But this is not a job for the
federal courts to be looking at from a First Amendment perspective.
So what we did with with miss Littlegog's case in
another case uh in Ohio Darling that we've got depending
for the High Supreme Court right now, as we said, okay, uh,
then let's take a look at is this a valid contract? Right?
(05:14):
Let's go back to basic Ohio contract law. What's the
federal courts are saying? That's what we ought to do
and say, look, this isn't a valid contract because one
you didn't tell me what I was signing up for.
U two, I'm not getting anything in return. Uh three.
I you know, I was sort of forced into this.
Or there's a what's what's called uh you know, a
liquidated damages that are that are unfairly unrelated to the
(05:37):
actual damage that someone might get. Right, So we raised
all these these contractual claims and defenses, and the first
thing that had happened because of this Darling case was so,
well you got to go first to the State Employee
Relations fort.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
So so that's like that is that like the court
of original jurisdiction for these labor issues.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Well, you know, so this is this is again I
don't want to get too much into the weeds, but
but there's this jurisdictional fight of so you know, federally,
you tried to bring the cases in federal court. They
said no, no, this is state contract actor. Right. We
brought a contract case in that Darland case I mentioned,
and that court said no, no, you got to go
to this board first because it might be an unfair
(06:19):
labor practice. And you know, again it's not it's contract No,
I know, it says right there, you know, And so
we go to the State Employment Relations Board and they
say this is not an unfair labor practice Act, which
we knew all alonge. Uh So now we said, okay, finally,
now we're going to go to uh Common Police Court
(06:42):
and say please rule this contract. And so that's that's
sort of the games that we've been playing, right, It's
kind of this whack a mole of where can you
even bring this this claim?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You illustrate my am, I pointed at the outset wonderfully.
If they're trying to wage a battle of attrition, it's
like law fair and I've been involved in this. I
practice in Chicago Salt Earth litigation was by directive. Some
of the type of litigation we practice make their lives
miserable and see if we can push them into a
financial situation where they aren't going to want to keep
(07:12):
throwing money at the case. That's a fair play in litigation.
It sucks, but that's one of the reasons it's so
damn expensive. That's what they're doing them, is Little John.
That's the importance of the Buckeye Institute, because okay, we
got to play this game. You will play this game
on behalf of someone who could never afford to play it,
so they make you go through the hoop of going
in front of SERB. Fine, they throw it out and
say it's not a this isn't a labor practice, it
(07:34):
is a contractual issue. You're kind of back to square
wo when you find your suit in Hamilton County Common
Police Court.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yep, exactly. And look the other thing that's that's troubling
about the nature of these cases and the big scheme
of things. They're kind of nickel on dime, right. You
know the total that miss little John is seeking in
compensation of money that she got to be paid back
at after she west to union, it's about two thousand bucks.
(08:03):
And again and for the hire a lawyer to go
after two thousand bucks, there's just no way that makes
sense economically, especially in these cases where I think the
unions tend to uh for the just the purpose. You
know again they're they're they're well funded, uh and keep
establishing the principle that you know they they're not gonna
pay and you're gonna be stuck in this contract for
(08:26):
another uh. You know, in most cases, right, you have
this opt out date and it can be depending on
your your collective Barney agreement a year or a couple
of years in the future where you're still stuck paying
those dues. So I think they mostly look at, Okay, look,
we'll keep everybody in and people aren't going to fight
(08:47):
this because we'll figure out what's what's the point for
a couple hundred bucks, a couple of thousand bucks for
another another year, another two years. Uh, it's not worth
me spending the money to do it. But but the
thing is, you know, while they're doing that, they're they're
taking your money and using it for purposes that that
you don't want it used for. And that's a that's
a problem under a constitution.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
But the consideration for the contractual relationship, she pays money
and gets union representation along with the materials and the
emails and whatever. They accepted her resignation. They didn't say, no,
you have a contract that lasts for X number of time,
we will not accept your resignation. Wait for the contract
to expire and don't renew it, and then a relationship
is over. But the if they accepted her resignation and
(09:31):
she's no longer in the loop anymore than the consideration
that formed the basis for the contract has disappeared exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yep, that's yeah, you got it. You could you could
come back to practice, right, Yeah, that's exactly an argument.
It's one thing if you say, Okay, you're stuck with this,
but you're still going to begin in the magazine or
the Benefits or whatever you'd subscribe to. But no, in
this case, you got she received the letter from the
(10:00):
and saying, uh, sorry to see you go. We'll please
consider coming back. UH. And you know you can't vote
in union elections and you can't do this. You can't
do this, You've lost all these rates. Uh. And in
the meantime, we're going to keep collecting the money.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
How pervasive is.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
That's that's that's the thing that's just sort of ludicrous.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
That absolutely is How pervasive is this practice? I mean,
is it just the A f l C, I O
or other unions doing the unions doing the same thing.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Are there?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Is she been being treated exactly like everyone else in
her situation?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I would I would tend to say, you know, it
varies from from UH union to union. I would say,
most of the public again, this this applies just to
public sector unions, right, UH have adopted these same type practices. Now,
in my experience in liigating for buck Eye, we've had
a number of cases where we've been able to either
(10:55):
before filing suit or after filing suit, reach out to
the union uh, and they will be reasonable and say, yeah, look,
because you know the warriors who are representing them saying
the amount of money that's worth a year, it's just
not worth the fight. Plus there's the chance that they
might get unfavorable precedent. Right. So we've been able to
settle a good number of these cases. But sometimes we
(11:19):
get ones that the union is digging the heals in
and you know, is not willing to settle. And this
is one of those cases.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Well, since you're now in Hamilton County Common Police Court
and of course they continue to fight this all the
way up potentially the Hio Supreme Court, where I think
the odds, given the makeup of the court are pretty
substantial that you're going to win. Ultimately, you think this
will also settle, settle in the final analysis or refunder
money and maybe even pay you your attorney's fees.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Jay, We'll see, we'll see. My sense is on the
attorney s fee, this is sort of downside, right if
we were making the constitutional claim in federal court. You know,
we would have a a stechered rate to play in
the attorney sees under just a plain old greach of contract.
In case you dealt right, you know we'll running up
(12:11):
the flag pole.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Got to give it a shot. Jay Carson, Senior litigator
with the Buck Eye Institute. Help them out. I mean,
you can donate and help these wonderful organizations out. I
see it right there red donate button on your website
Buckeyeinstitute dot org. Jay Carson, thank you on behalf of
I know Ms. Little John probably really truly appreciates what
you're doing for her, But you're doing this for all
the union members out our former union members out there,
(12:33):
fighting this good fight and hopefully getting some established precedent
that is in favor of those who quit and letting
them keep the damn money that they're entitled to keep.
Keep it up, Jake, Thanks very much for the time
you spent today bringing my listeners up to speed on
this and what you were doing at the Buckeye Institute.
Thanks for having me my pleasure, my friend eighteen for
you bu Kcity Talks. They to stick around. We've got
(12:54):
Jay Ratliffe coming up just a few minutes. First word
for my friends at US Antilation, and they will give
you a free inspection. Remember it's free. So if you're
post mid seventies build home now, new homes I think
have sufficient insulation. I mean that's my understanding, because the
code requires an adequate amount of insulation in the exterior walls.
But it didn't always be that. It wasn't always that way,
(13:14):
so before the mid seventies there's nothing in the exterior walls,
and the vast majority of homes build pre mid seventy
you need the foam in there that'll insulate your home
and make it more comfortable guaranteed. And if you are
a later or an older build like my daughter's house
late seventies, she had R twelve in the exterior walls,
which was deteriorated, not providing much insulated value at all,
not that it had much in the first place. So
(13:36):
in went the USA PHAM. We bought that for her,
now experiencing far greater comfort in her old home and
energy savings guaranteed from USA. And right now, if you
get the fall of walls phoned in your home so
I mean it needs it, a free inspection will reveal
that and you get a free quote. At the same time,
they'll give you a free attic insulation. It's right, insulate
your attic four free when you pay for the foam
(13:57):
exterior walls. The ultpuate no brainer. Even more so proof
by the government who wants to give you twelve hundred
dollars for getting the phone in the exterior walls. That's
a tax credit that will be available to you next
year when you phone the walls this year. So get
on the horn. Get a free inspection. Doesn't take anything
but a little bit of your time and a phone
call to USA. That's three eight one three six two
six three eight one phone. Learn more online at USA
(14:18):
installation dot net. Fifty five KRC
Brian Thomas News
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