Judge Christopher McDowell - Shenanigans at the Court Clerk Office

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
For September eighth of this year, and because he was appointed,
has to run for reelection next year. But we'll see
if we can't accomplish that, and of course we'll be
talking to him about his election next year in the
calendar year. But in the meantime A Shenanigan's Declaration. Judge
McDowell told me at Listener lunch he was at Jim
and Jackson the River, and I sure appreciate the opportunity
to meet him and have him come to lunch, but

(00:21):
it was my concern over what he told me at
Listener lunch, and we're boiling it down here in the
morning show lingo as a Shenanigan's Declaration. Before we get
to that, Judge McDowell, it's a pleasure to having you here.
Oh my god, you and I are basically about the
same age, at least based upon your legal resume and
what an impressive career you have. I feel like a piker.

(00:43):
You are what I and the litigant. I was a
litigation attorney. I guess theoretically I still am considering. I
have my license, but I don't practice anymore. You are
what we lawyers call a true trial attorney.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, there's a differences all huge. There's a difference. I've
spent a lot of time in courtrooms, both as a
prosecutor and as a defense attorney. Also in civil cases,
a plaintiff side and defense side. There is a big
difference between someone who pushes paper and somebody who goes
into a courtroom.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
I acknowledge where I was on that side of the
ledger a paper pusher. But you tried literally hundreds of
cases successfully. So and of course I want to give
you props for serving your country. I know you enlisted
when you were seventeen.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, I did. I grew up in poverty in southern
West Virginia and the.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Way that's real pro poverty.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Oh yeah, it's the kind of poverty where you don't
have food, and the army was my way out. And
I enlisted in the Army when I was seventeen. And
I can tell you everything that I am today is
because of the opportunities that were afforded to me by
the United States Army. I went to college on the
GI bill, I received an ROTC scholarship, I got an
educational delay to go to law school, and I got

(01:57):
all that great trial experience in the army.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
And you did a lot of trial work in the
army judge advocate general, and you were in court all the.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Time I was. I was a military prosecutor in Korea.
I was a military prosecutor in Stuttgart, Germany, where I
was in charge of Southern Germany, Northern Africa, the former
East Bloc countries. Then I was a defense attorney, and
then I was finished out my time as a senior
defense attorney at Fort Riley, Kansas. Then I came to
Cincinnati and I became a partner at Densmore and Shoal,

(02:25):
and then I was a partner at Strauss Troy.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
They got you to deflect defect. Huh, Straus and Troy
got you to defect from Dinsmore. Yeah. No, it's impressive
that you were part of both of those in a
decade at both before being appointed by the governor to
the Hemilin County Court of Common Pleas, where you do
hear criminal cases as well as civil. But going back
to your your time as a judge devocate general, this
is an illustration of the reality of being an America's military.

(02:52):
They put twenty somethings behind the stick of multi multi
million dollar aircraft and equipment. Young people or given responsibilities
that no respect. They use the word responsible. Private corporation
would give a young person. No law firm at age
twenty two would allow you to go in and try

(03:12):
multiple trials. You have to work your way up to
that role. That's maybe why you had such great success
as a consequence of the American military Now.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
One hundred percent. One of the problems you find in
litigation today is so few cases go to trial, that
so few attorneys have that courtroom experience. And in the
military we were thrown into the crucible right away.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Well, in a comment you made off air before we started,
anybody who's practiced law and done courtroom work, you want
a trial lawyer as opposed to a litigation attorney or
someone who never was involved with courtroom work. You want
someone like that on the bench. They've dealt with motions,
They have been the attorney advocating on one side or
another in front of judges. They know the civil rules,

(03:58):
they know evidentiary rules. If you put someone on who
maybe was a tax attorney and never saw time in court,
and you appoint him to a judge or they're elected
as judge, they don't have the necessary foundational experience.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
That's absolutely correct. And with my resume, I've been both
a prosecutor and a defense attorney, done both plaintiffs work
and defense work, so I can see it from all sides.
And I know when somebody's pulling my leg and when
it's a real motion.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Oh, I'm certain of that. And your level of experience,
there's no way you could have gone that long and
been so successful without that acquiring that knowledge. So impressive
background it is, and a salute to you for your
service work to our country, especially on a day as
we part company here for a moment and come back
and let him Judge McDowell do the Shenanigans declaration about
their Clerk of Courts. It just so happens to be

(04:46):
World War Two veteran Bob Doolin's anniversary of his death.
Bob Doolan was installog Lo three that was the site
of the Great Escape movie with Steve McQueen. I got
to interview him here in the studio. I got to
have lunch with him. Thank you. Steve Murray, who also
served as kind is a career military man. He was
such just a wonderful human being and I just wanted
to honor his passing and his service to our country.

(05:08):
Bob Doolan passed away this day in twenty twenty two.
We're all better people for having been able to know
Bob Doolan's eight thirty five Right now more with Judge
Christopher McDowell. Shenanigan's Declaration coming up next. Don't go away.
This is fifty five karc an iHeartRadio Station with Judge
Christopher McDowell. He is on the Hamilton County Court of
Common please bench. He was just recently appointed, as indicated

(05:31):
in the last segment September eighth when he took the bench,
thanks for an employment by Governor Mike DeWine. Will be
voting for him next November. Hate to know that there's
an election you have to face it within one year
of being appointed at bench, Sir, I just la oh, well,
take what you can get and we're glad you're on
the bench, especially in these trying times. We can talk
a little bit about the criminal justice system, crime and

(05:53):
punishment and maybe bond settings in a little bit, but
let's first talk about what you told me at listener
lunch at Jim and Jackson. I was very troubled by
this so much so that I said, we've got to
get you here on the morning show to talk about it.
So what is going on with the felony murder docket,
Judge McDowell.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, let's start off with the concept that the sixth
Amendment to the United States Constitution makes our trials public,
and part of them being public is the people need
to know when those cases are going to be heard.
Anybody has the right to come and sit in my
courtroom and watch what's going on, and that's enshrined in
our constitution because of things that were going on in

(06:30):
England with the star chambers where people were being tried
in secret. Well, what I discovered about a week and
a half ago is that I had a murder case,
an aggravated murder case in my courtroom and it was
very interesting, but there was no media there and I
saw one of my go ahead.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
You and I'm not going to go into the details.
You know the details, and whether you need to offer
them or not is immaterial. But I got the impression
base moment you told me it was a particularly heinous
felony murder. It was one that would be very newsworthy
if you try to be objective about what's reportable and
what's not, or what's newsworthy what's not. This was clearly
a newsworthy murder.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Right, And I think if you think about all the
murders that happen in this city, and then think in
your mind as well, how many times have I heard
what happened to those murderers? How many times have I
heard the sentences compared to the number of murders, And
there's a huge disconnect in my mind much And this
is one of the reasons why literally half or over

(07:31):
half of the aggravated murders on my docket have been
removed from the Clerk of Court's website.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
By what authority is that under any circumstances appropriate? And
if so, under what circumstances?

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, there are reasons why the documents and even cases
could be removed from the public records, but not that
I can determine in this case, And and each time
that that occurs, a judge should have to sign off
on it. So let's say, for example, you have a
drug case and somebody's been arrested and they're working with
the police, Well, you want to remove that case from

(08:04):
the public record, So all his friends don't know he's
working with the police, and a murderer doesn't work with
the police, he's incarcerated. And this is a case that
had gone on for over a year and a half,
as are all the murder cases that are on my docta.
They've been going on for more than a year. But
these cases have been removed. So if you know the
name of the defendant and you were to go to

(08:25):
the clerk of quote's website put it in, it would
not come up. If you happen to know the case
number and you put it in, it would not come up.
And so that is one of the reasons why these
cases aren't being covered. They've been removed from the public record.
The media and the people don't know when these sentencings
are occurring.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Do we have any judges signing off on the removal
or is this just a blanket removal.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, it's very interesting. So when I started to do
my investigation into this, one of the older bailiffs in
the courthouse pulled a record for where Tracy Winkler, the
last Republican, was a clerk of courts, and on that document,
a judge had to sign off if a document or
a case was going to be removed from the public
docket or the public records there. We've looked at the

(09:12):
cases that have been removed from the Clerk Courtse website
and we can find no judge sign off so far
on any of these.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Cases, which leads one to guests that someone is behind
the scenes in the Clerker Court's office is unilaterally determined
this should not be on the public's docket or the
docket I mean somebody there's a looming phase it the
clerker courts.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Himself, well, the Clerk of COURTSE is responsible for that.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yeah, and the buck stops there in other words.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Right, And also judges need to be looking at this.
The thing of it is when I look at my docket,
when I look at I can see all these records,
so I wouldn't know that it has been removed from
the public record.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Because you have to try a case. Obviously you're going
to be given the information related to it, but you
have to look at the regular docket see if that
case that's right literally on your desk is there. And
as you determined in that fellow murder case, the heinous one,
you went over and look, it's not there. You're like, wait,
where is this on the docket.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Right, which then calls me to tell me. Ask my bailiff,
look at all the murder cases on my docket and
see how many of them have been removed from the
Clerk of Court's website, and it was over half. And
then I went to some other judges and discovered similar
things on their dockets as well. It's very curious, very curious.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
But in considering the case where there is a legitimate basis,
you have a drug dealer who's working with authorities, They've
got suppliers. Clearly you want to get those. That person's
life could very well be in jeopardy if it's known
that they're in front of you and their case is
going to be tried, their name's out there and you
know they're working with police. So there's in a murder case.
Sadly the victim, which is the one that we need

(10:50):
to be protected, is no longer in need of protection.
They're not going to be threatened.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
That's right. So yeah, I asked my clerk at the
same time because I had the same thought. I said,
look at the rape cases that we have next week
and see if those rape cases have been removed from
the public docket, and they had not, and so.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
They've got a victim there.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
There you have a real victim, and that real victim
is those cases have not been removed from the public record,
but just these aggravated murders so far as I can
I know so far aggravated murder cases. Now, when I
talk to other bailiffs in the courthouse, they tell me
they've seen this in some of the renew cases in
the past, which is the the drug cases, which is

(11:32):
a good reason I potentially remove it there. Another reason
might be that the police early on in a case
they have an arrest warrant for somebody and they don't
want it to be out in the public that they're
out looking for somebody. But as soon as they pick
that person up, the case should be put back on
to the public docket well.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
And to be in front of you in a case
that means it suggests obviously they have been picked up,
they have been issued a citation, they've probably been through
a bond hearing all ready. This is way way beyond
the time when this information should be maybe legitimately held
from the public.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah, the case in question was over a year and
a half old judgment.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
McDowell, am I right in understanding that the current clerker
Courts has been down this road before.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Oh yeah, one hundred percent. What he was doing before
was removing the eviction docket cases. So if you'd been
evicted from court, he was just removing those and so
the municipal court judges had to sue him to get
those records put back on to the public docket. The
Clerk of Courts does not have the power to unilaterally

(12:38):
remove documents from the public records.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Well, it's pause. Will bring Judge McDowell back for one
more Shenanigan's declaration.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
The talk station.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
In say forty eight or fifty five KCD talk station
Brian Thomas with Judge Christopher McDowell appointed by Governor de
Wine and thank God for Governor to Wine for at
least something. We've got this great judge on the bench,
unbelievably experienced and calling him as he sees them, clerker
Courts is apparently hiding a lot of the felony murders
from you and me knowing about them. I believe you
summed it up this way. You know, if you've got

(13:09):
a problem with crime, then maybe one of the ways
you try to deal with it is just covered up
and prevent like it doesn't exist. And that's the problem
that a lot of people are saying the city of
Cincinnati has. They want to tell you that everything's safe,
everything's fine, and yet we keep hearing about the murders,
the gunshots, the violence, no follow up. As you pointed out,
no one tells you what happened to the purpse after

(13:30):
they're arrested. But one of the reasons, then what do
you do to try to change the narrative? You don't
put them on the felony murder dockets, so local news
doesn't know that they're actually in front of a judge
being tried and maybe convicted. So what is the next
step on this? I thought of maybe one of these
lawyers out there, maybe like the Chris Finney's of the world,
or someone would file suit on this. This is what

(13:52):
they do all the time. Is there any legal challenges
at play here going after the clerker courts for hiding
these records or what are you planning on doing next
by way of steps, judge.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going
when these cases are coming before me. Now, the law
come before me within the next month for a report
or for some other matter. I'm going to require. I'm
going to give an issue an order to the prosecutor
to tell me why this case is not on the
public docket, why it is not on the Clerker Court's website,

(14:22):
because I don't know why there have been removed, So
I don't want to just unilaterally remove it and then
there could be somebody in danger, for example. But I'm
going to give them an opportunity, and then if they
don't provide me with a good explanation for why the
sixth Amendment seems to be curtailed in this case, then
I'm going to order and put back on the public
docket back on the Clerker Court's website where they belong,

(14:45):
so everybody knows and can come to court and see
how that case ends.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
And because we have a sixth Amendment, and because the
Clerk has been down this road before and ordered to
put these records back on, you're on firm legal ground
in directing.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
That, you would think so, yes, sir, well.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
I suppose it would end up in court. Kurt Hartman's
name came up too.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, I've known Kurt for a long time. Kurt's a
great lawyer, so is Chris Finny. There are a number
of great lawyers in the city who I'm sure would
love to take up this case. And also you would
think the inquir Fox News Channel twelve they also would
want to take up this case because they're the ones
who don't know when the cases are going to be
in court.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Prior to today, Judge McDowell, they probably didn't know that
these were being removed. You just discovered it by virtue
of you being on a bench.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, for a month, and for a month. I found
it out right away, and you would think other people
would realize it too, But we'll see. I'll take it
to I take the matter very seriously because I think
that for our judicial system to work best, the people
need to have full access to know. There needs to
be full transparency, and also people need to know if

(15:52):
aggravated murders are going to prison for life. That should
act as a deterrent.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Thanks for people, Well, and you just hit the nail
on the head in the direction I was going. We're
all worried out here, my listening audience. Anyway. You know,
the prosecutors seem to want to do their job on
the heels of the police who seem to want to
do their job. Bad guy commits crime, police issue citation,
pan it over the prosecutor's office. They needed a grand
jury indictment or not, as the case may be, but
they're happy to go to the court. The court seems

(16:18):
to be the weak link in the chain. The criminal
justice system worked because it acts as a deterrent one
of other reasons we have one punish the bad guy
gives some satisfaction to the victim, the victim's families, But
more fundamentally, you offer an out loud message to those
who might commit crime. If you do, you're going to
be dealt with harshly. Well, modern judicial theory is now, well,

(16:39):
it's not their fault. They went out and shot somebody
in the head. They had a tough life. Wow, And
they let them out either on low bond no bond,
which sends a very out loud message, much like an
open border sends a message that everybody can come into
the country, everybody can commit crime.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
There's not gonna be.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Any consequences, most notably for the juveniles out there.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
And you also see the repeat offend. You see the
people who are out on bond or out on probation,
who then commit the same offense or similar offense, another
violent offense, who are then still out on the street,
hurting the people of Cincinnati Hamilton County, and we just
cannot continue to live that way. Everybody should feel like

(17:20):
they can go anywhere in the city that they want,
and you can't. There are areas of the city that
you can't go because you fear for your life. And
a lot of the people that you fear are people
who are out on bond, out on probation, and it
should not be that.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Way, and they've demonstrated willingness to break the law, and
they gleefully do so again knowing that apparently there's not
going to be any consequence as well, if they're in
front of you, Judge McDowell, then I imagine there might
be consequences. Appreciate your service to our country and military service,
work of the JAG, of course, your storied legal career,
all the cases you've tried, and I'm glad you're on
the bench. You have a responsible, intelligent official on the bench,

(17:59):
one who is obviously willing to look into Shenanigan's going
on in the clerk. A Court's office, Judrick dout, you
know you got an open form here to give us
a follow up and where things are if you find
out the reason why the specific person responsible for this
was it somebody within the Pervoll administration directing the clerk
on what to do and not to do. Don't know,
but I'm looking forward to finding out. He seems like

(18:19):
you're the man to do it.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
I'll get to the bottom of it.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
I have a confidence that you will, Judge Rick Dowbt,
it's a real pleasure. We'll be looking forward to supporting
your campaign for election in November of next year. Keep
up the great work on the bench. In the meantime,
best of health and loved you and your family. Oh
I got to ask. I know you've only been there
for about a month, and I know judges get threats regularly.
Have you experienced any of that if you even want

(18:44):
to say out loud, because I just worry about that
kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Well, the first thing is I exercised my second amendment
right I figured you did. The second thing is the
Hamilton County Chrieff has been out to my home and
they've conducted a full analysis of my home. Good in
my area. They provided me a report as to the
weaknesses and the strengths of what I'm doing. And this
weekend I was busy installing a home alarm and security system.

(19:11):
And you know it's my wife is the one who
often bears the burden of it. Of course, you know
she she could be home alone. And my wife is
a West Point graduate. I met her in the military.
She also exercises her.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Second she does. Don't mess with missus McDowell. Judge McDowell, great,
heaven you on. I'm sorry to put you on the
spot like that, but ahead to note because we live
in a very very very dangerous world generally speaking, and
social media and docsing really makes it that much worse
psychologically at minimum,