December 2, 2025 • 34 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bok station seven. Hoh sis here if about Canacy detalk
(00:20):
station careful one you're commute in and good luck trying
to get that Cincinnati snowplow tracker app to work. So
far it's not working. Brand new rolled out yesterday. Maybe
Todd's Zenzer will comment about that in studio our citizen Watchdog,
and God blessed Todd Enser for who he is and
what he does for the city of Cincinnati, whether you like,
(00:43):
whether you like the council or not. Todd's ends are
at least paying close attention to the Shenanigans going on
and got a couple of Shenanigans declarations to declare this morning.
Todd's ends Er Citizen Watchdog is the name of his podcast.
I strongly encourage you to listen to what Todd Zenser
has to say because some of the details he reveals, well,
it's enlightening. Maybe you put a soft touch on that word.
(01:06):
Todd Zinzer. It's great to have you in the studio,
and thanks again for all that you do for the city,
whether they like you or not.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Thank you, Brian.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well, we'll talk about the upcoming Todd Zenzer nonprofit and
where that may go and Lord knows we'll need that. One.
Don't expect Todd Zenser's nonprofit to be a NGO included
in government funding from the City of Cincinnati, though you're not.
You're not expecting that when it happens.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
No, Yeah, I don't think I'll do that, And if
I did, I'm not sure that I would get a
grant from the city.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Probably not, But at least you wouldn't be a mayor
sitting on a board of directors for a nonprofit that
does get Cincinnati taxpayer dollars, which is verboten, isn't it, Todd.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Well, I think it's I think it's improper, And you know,
I've I've been trying to get some attention to that.
I've written to the mayor and recommended that he do
something about it. And that was back in September. Oh,
he didn't get back with you, and I haven't heard
back from them. I've got to try to elevate that somehow.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, that sounds me like something that's Oh, I don't know,
some attorney might want to take on a pro bonum basis.
I know there's a lot of attorneys out there to
like to sue the city for things like this anyway,
we'll get to that toward the tail end here, let
us begin with the lead pipe scandal. We had talked
about this previously. We're in the process of logically removing
lead pipes from the water infrastructure. Correct, Yes, and that's
(02:27):
we've been under order to do that. It's part of
the environmental cleanup process that's going on, multi billion dollar process,
that is. But I certainly understand the need to get
rid of lead pipe. It's obviously a problem. It causes
brain deficiencies and just in functions, and so it needs
to go out. But the problem is how they're going
about removing it ran into a little bit of problem,
did we Toddzenser.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Right, it's a it's an important program, which which makes
oversight of the program that much that more critical. And
what they what the UH internal auditor for the city
found several months ago, is that there was a problem
with the scrap lead not being properly recycled and they
(03:12):
had set up a regimen in the process where once
the lead pipes were removed, they were supposed to be
deposited into a container down at waterworks headquarters. And the
auditor found out that that container and the recycle outfit
that they contracted with would come and service that container,
(03:34):
they replace it and take the full container to recycling.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So there was a contractor that was retained to take
away the lead pipe. That's correct, all right, So city
employees working on the were working on the removal. Yeah, right, correct, Okay,
I just want to make sure because there's outside entities
and then there's people that are subject to the direct
oversight of the City of Cincinnaty.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
They had electrific I had a lead crew.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So you have a lead crew. Lead crew takes the pipe,
puts it in this specialized dumpster, and then there's a
specialized specific company retained to remove it. Yes, that's the
way it's supposed to work. Yes, and I guess it didn't.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well. The internal auditor found that the container had not
been serviced for five years, which means that no lead
pipe had ever been deposited into the container.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Uhhh Okay, Now walking through this, and I can see
where this is going, and you can certainly can explain it.
But if it had not been serviced for five years,
this company that was retained and contracted to service it,
as we're calling the process of removing the lead from
the container. Did they at any time say, hey, we've
been driving by this lead container receptacle we're supposed to
(04:50):
be removing lead pipe from and it's never had any
lead pipe in it. Did any of that word ever
get through to anyone responsible?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I believe there's some email traff to that effect, really,
but it came very late. Oh, it came, I believe,
closer to when the audit was being conducted.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Oh so maybe when word got out that there was
an audit being done and so they said oh oh.
But by the way, it seems to be an important question.
Was the company that was retained to take care of
this receptacle and the lead pipe there and were they
being paid all along during this five year period where
they apparently didn't have to do any work.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, they have a they have a bigger contract, I
believe in the city and this was just part of.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
It, Okay, And so that's a yes, I think to
my question, Well.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
They were getting paid for the other services that they
were performing under the contract.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
But this wasn't a separate line item charge on a
monthly basis from the company. Was is included in one
lump payment to the company. That's that's a yes to
my question.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
That's my understanding.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So it should have been something less than the monthly
amount because they didn't have to do any work in
connection with removing the lead pipe.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
There they were, they were riggered by a phone They
were supposed to be triggered by a phone call. Somebody's
supposed to call them and say, hey, our container is full,
you need to come and get it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Oh okay, So never having gotten a phone call, that's right,
that's go ahead and continue to accept the money that
we got lump sum.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
All right.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So then phase two is or question number two. So
they're not doing the job because there isn't a job
to do. Where in the hell the lead pipe go?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Todd Censer, Well, that's my question, Brian. They did a
They did a good thing by focusing on the theft
of the lead pipe. They aught it. Yeah, they identified
one person that they claim was responsible.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So facilitating the how did how did the scam work?
Because again we're talking about city employees removing the lead
pipe team, So it was someone on the lead pipe
team that was identified as being involved in this scam,
that's right. So what was happening to the lead Well, the.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Way I understand it is that the employee, instead of
putting it in the container, it would be loaded in
a truck, and instead of putting it in the container,
they they he had some kind of designated spot where
he would drop it off based on some prior arrangement
with us, these local scrappers that drive their truck around
and and and pick up stuff from the curb that
(07:20):
people put out. Right, he had some prior arrangement with
scrappers telling them where to go get it and they
would pay They would pay him.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Now, are scrappers subject to some sort of rules, legal
laws or rules of ethics, because the scrappers might not
have ethics, I don't know. No, do they have an
obligation to, you know, report what they've picked up, because
again you and I were talking off air, lead is
considered a hazardous substance.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Well, that's what That's what I've been focusing on. But
I don't think the scrappers have any any other obligation, uh,
you know, to the city, or any kind of legal obligation.
But that ought to be the subject of a further investigation,
which the city is not doing.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Well. Let's say I have a load of lead pipe
for whatever reason, it was not obtained unlawfully, but I've
got to get rid of it. I take it to
a local scrapyard. I can sell it to them because
they weigh by the pound and it does have some
value for the scrapyard. That's why they pay for it.
I'm not going to get as much as they get
for dealing with whoever they sell it to. So in
(08:28):
this particular arrangement, was it ever revealed what this one
loan individual who has identified what his slice of the
action was, and was he actually getting paid by the
scrap guy for the price of the lead or some
flat amount or something.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I think he tried to tell the city that it
was only once in a while and at least bunnies
when he was short on his monthly bills or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I only kill people every once in a while. I
don't need to hold me account will under the law.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
But there really is not a big comprehensive investigation of
the extent of the issue. My question right now is
where is the lead? Because if it is a hazardous
waste and there is a test that they have to
perform on the pipe to determine whether or not it
(09:16):
reaches the threshold of a hazardous waste. There's a federal
law and a state law about a requirement to designate
or determine whether or not a solid waste is hazardous
or not. And there's no indication at this point whether
(09:36):
they've made whether they ever made a determination like that.
So I have asked for any records that would show
the determination, whether they did the determination, and if they did,
what it says about those lead pipes. So it's really
an open question right now. And the reason I started
looking into it the executives from the water work were
(09:59):
interviewed on TV by WCPO and they're, you know, they're
sorry and et cetera, and they're going to do better,
But they didn't really seem concerned about this missing around
accounted for lead pipe. And it seems to me that
there's a big potential environmental issue there.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Well clearly that, But then again, this is simply a
question also of like theft. Yes, yeah, okay, let's pause.
We'll bring Tod Zenzer back a little bit more on
that one. Plus we'll talk about the snapping wick programs
and CINCINNTI plus unregulated group homes seven sixteen. Right now,
if you five KRCD talk station. You have an imported
the talk station seven twenty here if you five KRCD
(10:38):
talk station Brian Thomas with Citizen watch Dog. That's the
name of the podcast and that's who he is. He
is Todd zens Or, former Inspector General for the United
States of America. He understands documents, he understands obligations. He
understands well the legal realities and the challenges we face
as city taxpayers. I'll use we even though I don't
live in the city. Uh, following the money and seeing
(10:59):
if work was actually done pursuant the contracts, and when
we have run when we run into problems, finding out
where those problems lead. In this particular case, the lead
pipe scandal. So as you set it up, we're removing
the lead pipe. Good, that's good. It goes to a
receptacle that's supposed to store the lead pipe.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Fine.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
A company is hired to remove that lead pipe. They're
supposed to receive a phone call when the receptacles full.
They never got a phone call because the receptacle remained
empty for five years. Where did the lead pipe go?
Big question? One person apparently on the team of lead
pipe removal. A city employee has been identified as someone
who was involved in the removal of the lead pipe
(11:38):
and putting it someplace else for some yet unknown company
scrap dealer person to remove it, probably to their financial advantage. Yes,
so fine, question, is lead pipe dangerous? Hazardous? I think
we can agree it is if they had to remove
it in the first place. I presume it passes the
lead pipe scrape test that they have to do. Were
(12:02):
there were the police alerted, this is the theft, and
I'm imagining Todd, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
The money that you get, like if you took it
to the scrap yard yourself, they'll give you a handful
of cash in return for how much the lead weighs.
Whatever the chargy get ten cents a pound or whatever.
That's taxpayer money that should have gone back into the
(12:22):
city coffers. I presume if it had all gone according
to contract.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
That's right under the contract, the recycling outfit or the
outfit that took it to the recycler, the city was
supposed to get a cut of those proceeds. So for
five years, whatever they would have gained is lost, and
that number has not been calculated.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And how could it be calculated unless the guys that
were responsible for removing it in the first place, the
city employees weighed first.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
That's right. But the tell is in their corrective actions
to the audit. They list out all the things they
plan to do to fix the situation, and those are
the things that they should have been doing in the outset.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
See right now, you're in my wheelhouse of late how
I mean, I keep referring apologies to my listeners. They
know what I'm going to say. But Dave had always
talks about these Internet of Things devices that the software
manufacturers never consider security first and foremost. They rush the
product out and don't realize it's filled with holes and bugs. Right,
they're not thinking about it. Why do our elected officials,
(13:29):
Why are they not charged with on some level like
a fiduciary obligation to the taxpayers they take the money
from to put fraud, waste, and abuse and the prevention
of that first and foremost in any program like this.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, you're you're singing my tune.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
I know. That's why I love you so much, todd Senser.
So what are they now proposing now that they found
out we're all being ripped off.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, they want to keep records of how much, how
much lead pipe they remove, and how much they and
how much copper they install, which is which is another
issue here, huge money. There's nothing in the there's nothing
in any of the reports that I saw that the
auditor did a report and the waterworks did their own
internal investigation. And for me, if somebody stealing lead pipe,
(14:18):
scrap lead pipe, chances are they may have their eyes
also on the copper inventory.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Oh, you're damn right, because it's as so as copper
is exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And so my point was you got to go over
and check your inventory of copper to see whether or
not that's been stolen as well. They just don't think
like that, Brian.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
They don't because they don't care a whit where the
money comes from, and because they can take all they want,
apparently they don't need to follow it like you or
I would in our household.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah. The the big question for me is is do
they not pay attention deliberately because they don't they don't
want to point out things going wrong and they're pro
sesses or are they just not you know, in tune
with oversight? Can I boil it?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Down, nefarious or stupid, well something like that. Yeah, that's
what it is. I'll put a blunt point on it
right there, DoD Genser, and I'm going to go for
a combination of all the above. The nefarious ones don't
want their program to be criticized. It's their program. They
didn't think about fraud, wasted abuse at the outset. And
the stupid are the ones that maybe realizes has happened
and just don't want to lift a finger to solve
(15:25):
the problem because oh, that means extra work.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, so five of the led one one of the
lead crew resigned and five of the lead crew were
reprimanded for being dishonest. But in that situation, yeah, the
first thing I would do is go check the copper inventory.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Reprimanded, Yes, for being dishonest. That's a soft way of
saying reprimanded for committing a crime. At least that's what
it appears to be.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
They either didn't want to or they couldn't establish the
culpability of the other members of the lead crew.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
You know, in a world filled with camera, I mean
you go back to the inventory, like, where is our
copper inventory sitting right now? Todd Zenzer, do you think
there are cameras that are constantly focused on that stack
of copper and other building materials that they're using for
the various city works projects.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I'd be surprised if that was the case.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Brian, Well, there's one more thing they can add to
the list.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Now, that's a good idea.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Todd Zenzer will bring it back. We got more controversies
snap and wig programs, group homes, aftab purvol sitting on
boards of directors for nonprofits that the city taxpayers are funding,
among other things that Todd Zenzer Citizen Watchdog has revealed.
Because no one in city council or within the city
government wants to bother to lift a finger to find
out where your money's being spent. Seven twenty six, Right
(16:42):
now fifty five krc DE Talk Station, Kate heavnsk Station
seven thirty Here fifty five krc DE Talk station. Real
pleasure as always having Todd Zenzer's Citizen Watchdog in studio,
and thank you Kevin, my dear friend Kevin. There's actually
an app out there, Todd, I scrap. We're talking about
this lead pipe situation with kind of pondering how much
(17:03):
a pound of lead might be worth it's thirty two
cents a pound time, I imagine it ended up being
a whole lot of money. They're pulling out a lot
of old lead pipe.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yes, thousands of residents have had their lead pipe replaced
with copper pipe, thousands, thousands. It's been going on for
five or six years, and it's going to go on
for another I don't know how many, three, three to
five more years. I think.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
All right, so they don't weigh when they pull it out.
It disappeared before it got to the appropriate receptacle bin.
Someone obviously absconded with a whole lot of money. Whoever
this scrap person was that took that lead pipe away
is more than Like, if you can get thirty two
cents a pound on the open market, then they're getting
more than that from to wherever they sell it, A
point I made earlier. How else could a scrapyard stay
in business. So they're making fat bank and we under
(17:56):
the contract with the people who were supposed to be
removing the we the city taxpayers, are suposed to get
some of this money back. So when you're talking thirty
two cents a pound with thousands and thousands of homes
that has got to add up to a lot of money.
I agree, it could reach felony level money, Todd, oh easily.
So makes me wonder, you know why law enforcement hasn't
(18:20):
been brought in and involved in this, because you know,
convicted criminals who were engage in this type of criminal
activity or quite often obligated to pay restitution to the victims.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That's correct, M.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
But no criminal referral. Although you're mentioned in the emails
that they did give you back in requests in your
request for documents. Yes, congratulations, Todd Zenser. He's a thorn
in city side right now and it's a good thing.
So they were aware that you were looking into this,
and they actually had an internal email saying, hey, Todd
Zenser's looking into this issue. In other words, beware because
(18:55):
this guy will be all over us like white on Rice.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Well that wasn't in the email, but sometime so something
like that.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, any profanities. You can't stay on the radio. No,
All right, well, let's tell you what You're not done
with this one. And I don't know, I don't know
what the steps are to get law enforcement involved, but
I think this certainly rises to a level of, you know,
a crime worthy of investigation. I suppose it remains a
(19:22):
large and looming question given the relationship between the mayor
and the city manager and their parent control over the
operations of the CINCINNTI Police Department. If the cincinnt Police
Department was referred to this, whether or not they would
actually follow through and do something that might put a
stain on the administration's reputation.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yes, and the issue is going to be for the city, Well,
should we spend money getting to the bottom of this
when it's only going to make us look even worse.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So, oh, yes, it'd be responsible thing to do, regardless
of how bad it makes you look. You obviously have
learned your lesson. You have new practic This is in
protocols you're putting in place to ensure that this thing
doesn't happen again. We learn from our mistakes. We're moving forward.
We're going to watch out and be responsible. And by
the way, we're doing everything in our effort to get
that money back on behalf of these city taxpayers.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yes, and they need to address the environmental issue created
by these scrap lead pipes in purv All. Mister Green, Well,
that's the thing that it's not really climate change. It's
more environmental.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So, in other words, real pollutants and real environmental problems
versus carbon dioxide.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, okay, they should be more concerned about these lead
this scrap lead being dumped somewhere and not being recycled
and getting into the water supply. Which is ironic here
that a water department is going to be so careless
with scrap lead.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Pipes in the bottom of the mill creek. Yeah, although
I think we can all safely presume or assume if
you want, that it was actually sold out there, because
this does have fat bank on the open market, right,
so hopefully it's not in some place doing environmental.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And it went to a proper recycler.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah. Now, how many recyclers are there in the greater
Cincinnati area.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I haven't counted that, but there probably are not too many,
not too many couple, I think.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So you could just go to each of the very
few scrap dealers and have a direct question answer with
them about whether they bought any lead pipe.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, you just go out and do some interviewing. Yeah,
be very simple. It would be the logical thing to do.
Todd Well, they'll maybe they'll wind up doing that the
alternative is for the federal EPA or the Ohio EPA
coming in and starting asking questions.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
You anticipated my next question. Todd. Also, I was wondering,
isn't this really kind of assumed or part of a
federal project to clean up all the lead.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Well, there's a there's a federal law called the Recovery
and Conservation the I can't remember the name of It's
called rickra Recovery Conservation.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Well, listen, they called the inflation Reduction acting inflation reduction.
I had nothing to do with inflation reduction, So call
it what you will. It's supposed to deal.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
With pretty it's a pretty serious, very long Yeah. We
worked with it when I was a DOT on hazardous
transportation issues. We even prosecuted American airlines back in the
nineties for their their poor handling of hazardous material on
their aircraft.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
So they're really well connected, lobby heavy kind of money
and interest group there.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Back then. The penalty was we negotiated was eight million dollars.
But and that was just for several containers, and their
lacks processes got them a fine at that level.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
So maybe the simple fact that it's all gone missing
and is totally unaccounted for, would be sufficient in information
to launch a federal investigation into this Rick potential Rick revilation. Right, well, okay,
there's some astute you know, us attorney out there, maybe
listening to the program might take it upon him or
herself to.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Go and do just that. Well, it would be a
worthwhile doing. I believe, I'm with sure one hundred percent
Todds Ends will continue. Yes, we'll get to the snap
and wig program next. Don't Go Away seven thirty six,
seven thirty seven fifty five Careseeage shy I seven forty
one fifty five car CIT Talk Station enlightening. It always
is when you're talking with todds Enzer about city council
(23:33):
and city affairs. We have been all morning so far
talking about this lead pipe scandal and criminal activity it
relates to. And why don't we see somebody being charged
with crime for stealing lead pipe? Maybe that'll happen, but
let us pivot over to something else. It may very
well be criminal of the Cincinnati Snap and Whip wik programs.
Supplement of Nutrition's assistance program is a snap card. And
(23:55):
then you have Women, Infants and Children program That one's
been around since what the forties or something like that.
Wick's been around since Nixon.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Nixon, Okay, all right, thought it might have been a
great society. Well, it doesn't matter. So two different programs, Yes,
who is supposed to run these? And how is it
run well? Or are they run?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Snap and WICK are both funded through the county in
their county programs. For example, the county administers SNAP administer's Medicaid.
There's a couple of other safety net programs that the
county operates. But when WICK was first put in place
by the federal government, the requirements were such, this is
(24:38):
my understanding anyway, that there was some kind of medical
professionals or whatever that were required to be involved in
the program for because of nursing mothers and things like.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
That, to verify eligibility.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
And that apparently is not the case anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I could sign up for WICK now it's probably so
easy to get around yet whatever oversight they might have.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, so, but for some reason, and at the time,
the city Health Department was it, so they took responsibility
for the program. Well, now forty or however, many fifty
years later, the city is still operating it. And the
Internal Audit Auditor did an audit of the wik program
and identified a lot of mismanagement.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
So go ahead and cut to the chase on what
mismanagement they identified.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Well, the programs operated out of ten different offices I
guess of the health district, and the auditor looked at
six of those offices and found that they were not
keeping track of their EBT card inventory. So, for example,
somebody working at the health department in the program, they
(25:49):
go and go to inventory and grab a stack of
fifty EBT cards that they're going to work with that
day or that week, or however long it takes to
use fifty EBT cards, and then they meet with the
constituent and figure out what benefits they're entitled to.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Wick recipient is the constituent, Yes, So they sit down
with that person.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yes, and they determine what their eligibility is in terms
of how much benefit they're entitled to, and then they
charge up the card. Just like you go to the
grocery store and get a gift card.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
They get an Apple gift card shirt exactly, and then
hand it to them and then hand it to them
or or well, we don't.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
There's no inventory of the cards.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
No inventory of the cards, which means someone of nefarious
intent could grab a stack of cards loaded up with
literally anybody's name and information on it, charge it to
any given amount that would be within the parameters of
the WIK program, and.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Put it in their pocket exactly. So that could have
been going on exactly for a long time, so they.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Have no tracking of the wick card inventory period and
the story.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
That was the result of the finding of the audit.
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Well, I feel real comfortable about that one. Todd.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Well, my suggestion was, aside from the mismanagement, why don't
you just give that program back to the county who's
got experience doing snaps, got experience doing other safety net programs,
and the city doesn't really need the headaches, and it.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Would relieve the city taxpayers of the burden of that
many employees, however, many are working on the WICK card
program right.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yes, the money comes from the federal government to the
county and then to the city. You would eliminate the
city's role in that.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
But then that would eliminate political patronage jobs to run
the WICK program. They would have that many fewer bodies
to award jobs to.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Todd Yeah, I think they'd probably be able to find Well,
I think that being involved in these kinds of things
in the past and the federal government, you'd just basically
take the employees working on Wick and move them to
the county payroll and be done with it.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Well, that's an extraordinarily simple, logical and reasonable solution, Todds
ens or it could be done. Yeah, any interest that
you can find down in the City of Cincinnati and
the employees that they might want to go that direction.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Well, that was part of my comments yesterday at the
Budget and Finance Committee. I talked about both of these
audits and that I did suggest that to the city
council whether they'll pay attention.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
No, they were paying with there were cell phones, weren't they.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I mean, do you feel do you feel like it's a.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Pointless gesture to show up and make these awesome points
that could benefit literally everyone and even improve their political
standing by getting on top of a problem that's obviously
a problem they just got made aware of. But listening
to what you have to say as opposed to playing
with their cell phone.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Well I do. I did sense that they were paying
more attention than they usually do.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Well, that's because they know you have their number. Hey,
you get emails circulated about you behind the scenes down there. Man.
You know you're having an impact. We'll bring back Todd
Zenzer or one more cover SENSEI though, is a great
thing to do is called care c Detalk Station Insights
scoop the brek Bart News after the top of the
hour news, followed by the Daniel Davis deep dive in
the meantime Citizen watch Dog Todd Zenser formac Us' attney,
(29:12):
former US Attorney General on these audits, and I've got
to go back to the audits really quick, because we
started with the audit of the lead pipe issue, an
internal audit of the wick snap problem that you just
explain and wonderfully so those I was surprised to even
know that the audits were done, because you do an audit,
you're going to find problems. But there are there is
(29:33):
an obligation under the audit standards for the auditors to
follow through if they find something wrong along the lines
of what you just explained to us. Correct, because where
would it go if there wasn't something some follow through?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Right, That's right. The general it's called the Generally Accepted
Government Auditing Standards, and they say that if the auditor
identifies indications of fraud, they've got to run that down.
They got to determine and you know the extent of
the problem or whether there truly is a fraud problem.
And the internal audit manager, I'm not trying to be critical,
(30:08):
but they don't take that step for some reason, probably
a manpower or they're being told by their management.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
You know, wait a second, there can't be a manpower issue,
because if they're obligated under law to apply these standards
and do the follow through, then you have no choice
put to hire people to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah. The the solution for the auditor is not to
cite those standards when they issue their reports, but they
do anyway.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
They do anyway, so they cite them and that gives
them protection even though they didn't follow the standards.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
That's right, Okay, great, No, they tied.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
By the way, the new mobile app to the snowplow
tracker app that the city rolled out, it's not working.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
That's surprising, all right.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So anything give the other component of this wick card
problem again, not keeping track of the inventory wick cards
and not keeping the appropriate records all sounds to me
like it's riddle with fraud and abuse or at least potentially.
So you mentioned also that they have an obligation to
(31:11):
keep track of equipment purchase to run this program, like
the computers and other hardware that's needed to implement it.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
That's right. The program gets about three point five million
dollars a year and that's used for benefits plus the
operation of the office, including or purchase of equipment, so
that equipment is basically federally funded. As a result, they've
got to keep a proper inventory, and the audit found
(31:39):
that that was not happening, so you'd have to go
back and reconstruct. You know, what equipment has been purchased
and is it still here? That's right.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So if you're not doing oversight of the equipment and
you have the authority under this program to purchase and
acquire equipment, some let's say nefarious act might say, oh,
my kids need laptops or Christmas, order the equipment under
the WICK program and then just take it home with you.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Exactly. That's the risk. Uh huh wow.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Tod's answer just scraping the tip of the iceberg in
terms of all the problems he's identified. And you've got
document requests out for this. I suppose at some point,
I mean, is there some sort of legal you know,
some Kurt Hartman out there in the world file lawsuit
over this stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yet you know, it's I'm sure it's possible. It's just
a matter of whether or not you can gather the
resources to pay for something like that.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Well, it usually starts as a Freedom of Information Act request,
which they have to honor, and when they don't honor it,
that's how you end up in court getting the documents
you need, which then will serve as the basis for
the lawsuit you ultimately file your file because they didn't
follow protocols or otherwise found breaches of the law, et cetera.
That's right, all right, Kurt, get on it. Todd'll be
(33:02):
happy to help you on to that end. I mentioned
a nonprofit. You're working toward establishing the purpose of that.
If you get it going, will be well.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
It's got a couple of different purposes. One is to
establish some way to sue the city, because if you
look back at the real reforms that have gone on
in Cincinnati has been the result of federal lawsuits or
other lawsuits. The city does not do these things voluntarily,
(33:33):
and so one objective is to establish an organization that
would take the lead in litigation against the city for
giving purposes exactly. And then the other is to elevate
or bring greater visibility to the whole oversight issue. The
city has no concept of oversight. It's just not part
(33:57):
of their constitution. And that's needed. I mean, they've got
a two billion dollar budget and they've got a four
person internal auditor that is kept basically on a leash.
They need some oversight mechanism like an inspector general that
many many cities across the country have in order to
(34:21):
deliver a oversight program.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Well, and if I had to speculate, since we're out
of time, on who is holding that leash, I have
to imagine it's the city manager. Yes, all right, there
you go. We've had issues with her before, haven't we. Toddzinser,
Yes we have. Yes, we have Todd zens Er Citizen
Watchdogs the podcast. Follow what he's saying on Citizen Watchdog
and tune into the morning show and we have todds
inzer on and share the podcast with your friends. Go
(34:46):
to fifty five krs dot com. Joelo the podcast up later.
Stick around the insight scoop of Bright Barton News Financial,
Bok station seven. Hoh sis here if about Canacy detalk
(00:20):
station careful one you're commute in and good luck trying
to get that Cincinnati snowplow tracker app to work. So
far it's not working. Brand new rolled out yesterday. Maybe
Todd's Zenzer will comment about that in studio our citizen Watchdog,
and God blessed Todd Enser for who he is and
what he does for the city of Cincinnati, whether you like,
(00:43):
whether you like the council or not. Todd's ends are
at least paying close attention to the Shenanigans going on
and got a couple of Shenanigans declarations to declare this morning.
Todd's ends Er Citizen Watchdog is the name of his podcast.
I strongly encourage you to listen to what Todd Zenser
has to say because some of the details he reveals, well,
it's enlightening. Maybe you put a soft touch on that word.
(01:06):
Todd Zinzer. It's great to have you in the studio,
and thanks again for all that you do for the city,
whether they like you or not.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Thank you, Brian.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well, we'll talk about the upcoming Todd Zenzer nonprofit and
where that may go and Lord knows we'll need that. One.
Don't expect Todd Zenser's nonprofit to be a NGO included
in government funding from the City of Cincinnati, though you're not.
You're not expecting that when it happens.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
No, Yeah, I don't think I'll do that, And if
I did, I'm not sure that I would get a
grant from the city.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Probably not, But at least you wouldn't be a mayor
sitting on a board of directors for a nonprofit that
does get Cincinnati taxpayer dollars, which is verboten, isn't it, Todd.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Well, I think it's I think it's improper, And you know,
I've I've been trying to get some attention to that.
I've written to the mayor and recommended that he do
something about it. And that was back in September. Oh,
he didn't get back with you, and I haven't heard
back from them. I've got to try to elevate that somehow.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, that sounds me like something that's Oh, I don't know,
some attorney might want to take on a pro bonum basis.
I know there's a lot of attorneys out there to
like to sue the city for things like this anyway,
we'll get to that toward the tail end here, let
us begin with the lead pipe scandal. We had talked
about this previously. We're in the process of logically removing
lead pipes from the water infrastructure. Correct, Yes, and that's
(02:27):
we've been under order to do that. It's part of
the environmental cleanup process that's going on, multi billion dollar process,
that is. But I certainly understand the need to get
rid of lead pipe. It's obviously a problem. It causes
brain deficiencies and just in functions, and so it needs
to go out. But the problem is how they're going
about removing it ran into a little bit of problem,
did we Toddzenser.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Right, it's a it's an important program, which which makes
oversight of the program that much that more critical. And
what they what the UH internal auditor for the city
found several months ago, is that there was a problem
with the scrap lead not being properly recycled and they
(03:12):
had set up a regimen in the process where once
the lead pipes were removed, they were supposed to be
deposited into a container down at waterworks headquarters. And the
auditor found out that that container and the recycle outfit
that they contracted with would come and service that container,
(03:34):
they replace it and take the full container to recycling.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So there was a contractor that was retained to take
away the lead pipe. That's correct, all right, So city
employees working on the were working on the removal. Yeah, right, correct, Okay,
I just want to make sure because there's outside entities
and then there's people that are subject to the direct
oversight of the City of Cincinnaty.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
They had electrific I had a lead crew.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So you have a lead crew. Lead crew takes the pipe,
puts it in this specialized dumpster, and then there's a
specialized specific company retained to remove it. Yes, that's the
way it's supposed to work. Yes, and I guess it didn't.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well. The internal auditor found that the container had not
been serviced for five years, which means that no lead
pipe had ever been deposited into the container.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Uhhh Okay, Now walking through this, and I can see
where this is going, and you can certainly can explain it.
But if it had not been serviced for five years,
this company that was retained and contracted to service it,
as we're calling the process of removing the lead from
the container. Did they at any time say, hey, we've
been driving by this lead container receptacle we're supposed to
(04:50):
be removing lead pipe from and it's never had any
lead pipe in it. Did any of that word ever
get through to anyone responsible?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I believe there's some email traff to that effect, really,
but it came very late. Oh, it came, I believe,
closer to when the audit was being conducted.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Oh so maybe when word got out that there was
an audit being done and so they said oh oh.
But by the way, it seems to be an important question.
Was the company that was retained to take care of
this receptacle and the lead pipe there and were they
being paid all along during this five year period where
they apparently didn't have to do any work.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, they have a they have a bigger contract, I
believe in the city and this was just part of.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
It, Okay, And so that's a yes, I think to
my question, Well.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
They were getting paid for the other services that they
were performing under the contract.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
But this wasn't a separate line item charge on a
monthly basis from the company. Was is included in one
lump payment to the company. That's that's a yes to
my question.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
That's my understanding.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So it should have been something less than the monthly
amount because they didn't have to do any work in
connection with removing the lead pipe.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
There they were, they were riggered by a phone They
were supposed to be triggered by a phone call. Somebody's
supposed to call them and say, hey, our container is full,
you need to come and get it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Oh okay, So never having gotten a phone call, that's right,
that's go ahead and continue to accept the money that
we got lump sum.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
All right.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So then phase two is or question number two. So
they're not doing the job because there isn't a job
to do. Where in the hell the lead pipe go?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Todd Censer, Well, that's my question, Brian. They did a
They did a good thing by focusing on the theft
of the lead pipe. They aught it. Yeah, they identified
one person that they claim was responsible.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So facilitating the how did how did the scam work?
Because again we're talking about city employees removing the lead
pipe team, So it was someone on the lead pipe
team that was identified as being involved in this scam,
that's right. So what was happening to the lead Well, the.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Way I understand it is that the employee, instead of
putting it in the container, it would be loaded in
a truck, and instead of putting it in the container,
they they he had some kind of designated spot where
he would drop it off based on some prior arrangement
with us, these local scrappers that drive their truck around
and and and pick up stuff from the curb that
(07:20):
people put out. Right, he had some prior arrangement with
scrappers telling them where to go get it and they
would pay They would pay him.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Now, are scrappers subject to some sort of rules, legal
laws or rules of ethics, because the scrappers might not
have ethics, I don't know. No, do they have an
obligation to, you know, report what they've picked up, because
again you and I were talking off air, lead is
considered a hazardous substance.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Well, that's what That's what I've been focusing on. But
I don't think the scrappers have any any other obligation, uh,
you know, to the city, or any kind of legal obligation.
But that ought to be the subject of a further investigation,
which the city is not doing.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Well. Let's say I have a load of lead pipe
for whatever reason, it was not obtained unlawfully, but I've
got to get rid of it. I take it to
a local scrapyard. I can sell it to them because
they weigh by the pound and it does have some
value for the scrapyard. That's why they pay for it.
I'm not going to get as much as they get
for dealing with whoever they sell it to. So in
(08:28):
this particular arrangement, was it ever revealed what this one
loan individual who has identified what his slice of the
action was, and was he actually getting paid by the
scrap guy for the price of the lead or some
flat amount or something.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I think he tried to tell the city that it
was only once in a while and at least bunnies
when he was short on his monthly bills or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I only kill people every once in a while. I
don't need to hold me account will under the law.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
But there really is not a big comprehensive investigation of
the extent of the issue. My question right now is
where is the lead? Because if it is a hazardous
waste and there is a test that they have to
perform on the pipe to determine whether or not it
(09:16):
reaches the threshold of a hazardous waste. There's a federal
law and a state law about a requirement to designate
or determine whether or not a solid waste is hazardous
or not. And there's no indication at this point whether
(09:36):
they've made whether they ever made a determination like that.
So I have asked for any records that would show
the determination, whether they did the determination, and if they did,
what it says about those lead pipes. So it's really
an open question right now. And the reason I started
looking into it the executives from the water work were
(09:59):
interviewed on TV by WCPO and they're, you know, they're
sorry and et cetera, and they're going to do better,
But they didn't really seem concerned about this missing around
accounted for lead pipe. And it seems to me that
there's a big potential environmental issue there.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Well clearly that, But then again, this is simply a
question also of like theft. Yes, yeah, okay, let's pause.
We'll bring Tod Zenzer back a little bit more on
that one. Plus we'll talk about the snapping wick programs
and CINCINNTI plus unregulated group homes seven sixteen. Right now,
if you five KRCD talk station. You have an imported
the talk station seven twenty here if you five KRCD
(10:38):
talk station Brian Thomas with Citizen watch Dog. That's the
name of the podcast and that's who he is. He
is Todd zens Or, former Inspector General for the United
States of America. He understands documents, he understands obligations. He
understands well the legal realities and the challenges we face
as city taxpayers. I'll use we even though I don't
live in the city. Uh, following the money and seeing
(10:59):
if work was actually done pursuant the contracts, and when
we have run when we run into problems, finding out
where those problems lead. In this particular case, the lead
pipe scandal. So as you set it up, we're removing
the lead pipe. Good, that's good. It goes to a
receptacle that's supposed to store the lead pipe.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Fine.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
A company is hired to remove that lead pipe. They're
supposed to receive a phone call when the receptacles full.
They never got a phone call because the receptacle remained
empty for five years. Where did the lead pipe go?
Big question? One person apparently on the team of lead
pipe removal. A city employee has been identified as someone
who was involved in the removal of the lead pipe
(11:38):
and putting it someplace else for some yet unknown company
scrap dealer person to remove it, probably to their financial advantage. Yes,
so fine, question, is lead pipe dangerous? Hazardous? I think
we can agree it is if they had to remove
it in the first place. I presume it passes the
lead pipe scrape test that they have to do. Were
(12:02):
there were the police alerted, this is the theft, and
I'm imagining Todd, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
The money that you get, like if you took it
to the scrap yard yourself, they'll give you a handful
of cash in return for how much the lead weighs.
Whatever the chargy get ten cents a pound or whatever.
That's taxpayer money that should have gone back into the
(12:22):
city coffers. I presume if it had all gone according
to contract.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
That's right under the contract, the recycling outfit or the
outfit that took it to the recycler, the city was
supposed to get a cut of those proceeds. So for
five years, whatever they would have gained is lost, and
that number has not been calculated.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And how could it be calculated unless the guys that
were responsible for removing it in the first place, the
city employees weighed first.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
That's right. But the tell is in their corrective actions
to the audit. They list out all the things they
plan to do to fix the situation, and those are
the things that they should have been doing in the outset.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
See right now, you're in my wheelhouse of late how
I mean, I keep referring apologies to my listeners. They
know what I'm going to say. But Dave had always
talks about these Internet of Things devices that the software
manufacturers never consider security first and foremost. They rush the
product out and don't realize it's filled with holes and bugs. Right,
they're not thinking about it. Why do our elected officials,
(13:29):
Why are they not charged with on some level like
a fiduciary obligation to the taxpayers they take the money
from to put fraud, waste, and abuse and the prevention
of that first and foremost in any program like this.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, you're you're singing my tune.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
I know. That's why I love you so much, todd Senser.
So what are they now proposing now that they found
out we're all being ripped off.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, they want to keep records of how much, how
much lead pipe they remove, and how much they and
how much copper they install, which is which is another
issue here, huge money. There's nothing in the there's nothing
in any of the reports that I saw that the
auditor did a report and the waterworks did their own
internal investigation. And for me, if somebody stealing lead pipe,
(14:18):
scrap lead pipe, chances are they may have their eyes
also on the copper inventory.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Oh, you're damn right, because it's as so as copper
is exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And so my point was you got to go over
and check your inventory of copper to see whether or
not that's been stolen as well. They just don't think
like that, Brian.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
They don't because they don't care a whit where the
money comes from, and because they can take all they want,
apparently they don't need to follow it like you or
I would in our household.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah. The the big question for me is is do
they not pay attention deliberately because they don't they don't
want to point out things going wrong and they're pro
sesses or are they just not you know, in tune
with oversight? Can I boil it?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Down, nefarious or stupid, well something like that. Yeah, that's
what it is. I'll put a blunt point on it
right there, DoD Genser, and I'm going to go for
a combination of all the above. The nefarious ones don't
want their program to be criticized. It's their program. They
didn't think about fraud, wasted abuse at the outset. And
the stupid are the ones that maybe realizes has happened
and just don't want to lift a finger to solve
(15:25):
the problem because oh, that means extra work.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, so five of the led one one of the
lead crew resigned and five of the lead crew were
reprimanded for being dishonest. But in that situation, yeah, the
first thing I would do is go check the copper inventory.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Reprimanded, Yes, for being dishonest. That's a soft way of
saying reprimanded for committing a crime. At least that's what
it appears to be.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
They either didn't want to or they couldn't establish the
culpability of the other members of the lead crew.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
You know, in a world filled with camera, I mean
you go back to the inventory, like, where is our
copper inventory sitting right now? Todd Zenzer, do you think
there are cameras that are constantly focused on that stack
of copper and other building materials that they're using for
the various city works projects.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I'd be surprised if that was the case.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Brian, Well, there's one more thing they can add to
the list.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Now, that's a good idea.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Todd Zenzer will bring it back. We got more controversies
snap and wig programs, group homes, aftab purvol sitting on
boards of directors for nonprofits that the city taxpayers are funding,
among other things that Todd Zenzer Citizen Watchdog has revealed.
Because no one in city council or within the city
government wants to bother to lift a finger to find
out where your money's being spent. Seven twenty six, Right
(16:42):
now fifty five krc DE Talk Station, Kate heavnsk Station
seven thirty Here fifty five krc DE Talk station. Real
pleasure as always having Todd Zenzer's Citizen Watchdog in studio,
and thank you Kevin, my dear friend Kevin. There's actually
an app out there, Todd, I scrap. We're talking about
this lead pipe situation with kind of pondering how much
(17:03):
a pound of lead might be worth it's thirty two
cents a pound time, I imagine it ended up being
a whole lot of money. They're pulling out a lot
of old lead pipe.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yes, thousands of residents have had their lead pipe replaced
with copper pipe, thousands, thousands. It's been going on for
five or six years, and it's going to go on
for another I don't know how many, three, three to
five more years. I think.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
All right, so they don't weigh when they pull it out.
It disappeared before it got to the appropriate receptacle bin.
Someone obviously absconded with a whole lot of money. Whoever
this scrap person was that took that lead pipe away
is more than Like, if you can get thirty two
cents a pound on the open market, then they're getting
more than that from to wherever they sell it, A
point I made earlier. How else could a scrapyard stay
in business. So they're making fat bank and we under
(17:56):
the contract with the people who were supposed to be
removing the we the city taxpayers, are suposed to get
some of this money back. So when you're talking thirty
two cents a pound with thousands and thousands of homes
that has got to add up to a lot of money.
I agree, it could reach felony level money, Todd, oh easily.
So makes me wonder, you know why law enforcement hasn't
(18:20):
been brought in and involved in this, because you know,
convicted criminals who were engage in this type of criminal
activity or quite often obligated to pay restitution to the victims.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That's correct, M.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
But no criminal referral. Although you're mentioned in the emails
that they did give you back in requests in your
request for documents. Yes, congratulations, Todd Zenser. He's a thorn
in city side right now and it's a good thing.
So they were aware that you were looking into this,
and they actually had an internal email saying, hey, Todd
Zenser's looking into this issue. In other words, beware because
(18:55):
this guy will be all over us like white on Rice.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Well that wasn't in the email, but sometime so something
like that.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, any profanities. You can't stay on the radio. No,
All right, well, let's tell you what You're not done
with this one. And I don't know, I don't know
what the steps are to get law enforcement involved, but
I think this certainly rises to a level of, you know,
a crime worthy of investigation. I suppose it remains a
(19:22):
large and looming question given the relationship between the mayor
and the city manager and their parent control over the
operations of the CINCINNTI Police Department. If the cincinnt Police
Department was referred to this, whether or not they would
actually follow through and do something that might put a
stain on the administration's reputation.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yes, and the issue is going to be for the city, Well,
should we spend money getting to the bottom of this
when it's only going to make us look even worse.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So, oh, yes, it'd be responsible thing to do, regardless
of how bad it makes you look. You obviously have
learned your lesson. You have new practic This is in
protocols you're putting in place to ensure that this thing
doesn't happen again. We learn from our mistakes. We're moving forward.
We're going to watch out and be responsible. And by
the way, we're doing everything in our effort to get
that money back on behalf of these city taxpayers.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yes, and they need to address the environmental issue created
by these scrap lead pipes in purv All. Mister Green, Well,
that's the thing that it's not really climate change. It's
more environmental.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So, in other words, real pollutants and real environmental problems
versus carbon dioxide.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, okay, they should be more concerned about these lead
this scrap lead being dumped somewhere and not being recycled
and getting into the water supply. Which is ironic here
that a water department is going to be so careless
with scrap lead.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Pipes in the bottom of the mill creek. Yeah, although
I think we can all safely presume or assume if
you want, that it was actually sold out there, because
this does have fat bank on the open market, right,
so hopefully it's not in some place doing environmental.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And it went to a proper recycler.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah. Now, how many recyclers are there in the greater
Cincinnati area.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I haven't counted that, but there probably are not too many,
not too many couple, I think.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So you could just go to each of the very
few scrap dealers and have a direct question answer with
them about whether they bought any lead pipe.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, you just go out and do some interviewing. Yeah,
be very simple. It would be the logical thing to do.
Todd Well, they'll maybe they'll wind up doing that the
alternative is for the federal EPA or the Ohio EPA
coming in and starting asking questions.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
You anticipated my next question. Todd. Also, I was wondering,
isn't this really kind of assumed or part of a
federal project to clean up all the lead.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Well, there's a there's a federal law called the Recovery
and Conservation the I can't remember the name of It's
called rickra Recovery Conservation.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Well, listen, they called the inflation Reduction acting inflation reduction.
I had nothing to do with inflation reduction, So call
it what you will. It's supposed to deal.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
With pretty it's a pretty serious, very long Yeah. We
worked with it when I was a DOT on hazardous
transportation issues. We even prosecuted American airlines back in the
nineties for their their poor handling of hazardous material on
their aircraft.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
So they're really well connected, lobby heavy kind of money
and interest group there.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Back then. The penalty was we negotiated was eight million dollars.
But and that was just for several containers, and their
lacks processes got them a fine at that level.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
So maybe the simple fact that it's all gone missing
and is totally unaccounted for, would be sufficient in information
to launch a federal investigation into this Rick potential Rick revilation. Right, well, okay,
there's some astute you know, us attorney out there, maybe
listening to the program might take it upon him or
herself to.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Go and do just that. Well, it would be a
worthwhile doing. I believe, I'm with sure one hundred percent
Todds Ends will continue. Yes, we'll get to the snap
and wig program next. Don't Go Away seven thirty six,
seven thirty seven fifty five Careseeage shy I seven forty
one fifty five car CIT Talk Station enlightening. It always
is when you're talking with todds Enzer about city council
(23:33):
and city affairs. We have been all morning so far
talking about this lead pipe scandal and criminal activity it
relates to. And why don't we see somebody being charged
with crime for stealing lead pipe? Maybe that'll happen, but
let us pivot over to something else. It may very
well be criminal of the Cincinnati Snap and Whip wik programs.
Supplement of Nutrition's assistance program is a snap card. And
(23:55):
then you have Women, Infants and Children program That one's
been around since what the forties or something like that.
Wick's been around since Nixon.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Nixon, Okay, all right, thought it might have been a
great society. Well, it doesn't matter. So two different programs, Yes,
who is supposed to run these? And how is it
run well? Or are they run?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Snap and WICK are both funded through the county in
their county programs. For example, the county administers SNAP administer's Medicaid.
There's a couple of other safety net programs that the
county operates. But when WICK was first put in place
by the federal government, the requirements were such, this is
(24:38):
my understanding anyway, that there was some kind of medical
professionals or whatever that were required to be involved in
the program for because of nursing mothers and things like.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
That, to verify eligibility.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
And that apparently is not the case anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I could sign up for WICK now it's probably so
easy to get around yet whatever oversight they might have.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, so, but for some reason, and at the time,
the city Health Department was it, so they took responsibility
for the program. Well, now forty or however, many fifty
years later, the city is still operating it. And the
Internal Audit Auditor did an audit of the wik program
and identified a lot of mismanagement.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
So go ahead and cut to the chase on what
mismanagement they identified.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Well, the programs operated out of ten different offices I
guess of the health district, and the auditor looked at
six of those offices and found that they were not
keeping track of their EBT card inventory. So, for example,
somebody working at the health department in the program, they
(25:49):
go and go to inventory and grab a stack of
fifty EBT cards that they're going to work with that
day or that week, or however long it takes to
use fifty EBT cards, and then they meet with the
constituent and figure out what benefits they're entitled to.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Wick recipient is the constituent, Yes, So they sit down
with that person.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yes, and they determine what their eligibility is in terms
of how much benefit they're entitled to, and then they
charge up the card. Just like you go to the
grocery store and get a gift card.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
They get an Apple gift card shirt exactly, and then
hand it to them and then hand it to them
or or well, we don't.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
There's no inventory of the cards.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
No inventory of the cards, which means someone of nefarious
intent could grab a stack of cards loaded up with
literally anybody's name and information on it, charge it to
any given amount that would be within the parameters of
the WIK program, and.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Put it in their pocket exactly. So that could have
been going on exactly for a long time, so they.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Have no tracking of the wick card inventory period and
the story.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
That was the result of the finding of the audit.
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Well, I feel real comfortable about that one. Todd.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Well, my suggestion was, aside from the mismanagement, why don't
you just give that program back to the county who's
got experience doing snaps, got experience doing other safety net programs,
and the city doesn't really need the headaches, and it.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Would relieve the city taxpayers of the burden of that
many employees, however, many are working on the WICK card
program right.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yes, the money comes from the federal government to the
county and then to the city. You would eliminate the
city's role in that.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
But then that would eliminate political patronage jobs to run
the WICK program. They would have that many fewer bodies
to award jobs to.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Todd Yeah, I think they'd probably be able to find Well,
I think that being involved in these kinds of things
in the past and the federal government, you'd just basically
take the employees working on Wick and move them to
the county payroll and be done with it.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Well, that's an extraordinarily simple, logical and reasonable solution, Todds
ens or it could be done. Yeah, any interest that
you can find down in the City of Cincinnati and
the employees that they might want to go that direction.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Well, that was part of my comments yesterday at the
Budget and Finance Committee. I talked about both of these
audits and that I did suggest that to the city
council whether they'll pay attention.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
No, they were paying with there were cell phones, weren't they.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I mean, do you feel do you feel like it's a.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Pointless gesture to show up and make these awesome points
that could benefit literally everyone and even improve their political
standing by getting on top of a problem that's obviously
a problem they just got made aware of. But listening
to what you have to say as opposed to playing
with their cell phone.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Well I do. I did sense that they were paying
more attention than they usually do.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Well, that's because they know you have their number. Hey,
you get emails circulated about you behind the scenes down there. Man.
You know you're having an impact. We'll bring back Todd
Zenzer or one more cover SENSEI though, is a great
thing to do is called care c Detalk Station Insights
scoop the brek Bart News after the top of the
hour news, followed by the Daniel Davis deep dive in
the meantime Citizen watch Dog Todd Zenser formac Us' attney,
(29:12):
former US Attorney General on these audits, and I've got
to go back to the audits really quick, because we
started with the audit of the lead pipe issue, an
internal audit of the wick snap problem that you just
explain and wonderfully so those I was surprised to even
know that the audits were done, because you do an audit,
you're going to find problems. But there are there is
(29:33):
an obligation under the audit standards for the auditors to
follow through if they find something wrong along the lines
of what you just explained to us. Correct, because where
would it go if there wasn't something some follow through?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Right, That's right. The general it's called the Generally Accepted
Government Auditing Standards, and they say that if the auditor
identifies indications of fraud, they've got to run that down.
They got to determine and you know the extent of
the problem or whether there truly is a fraud problem.
And the internal audit manager, I'm not trying to be critical,
(30:08):
but they don't take that step for some reason, probably
a manpower or they're being told by their management.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
You know, wait a second, there can't be a manpower issue,
because if they're obligated under law to apply these standards
and do the follow through, then you have no choice
put to hire people to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah. The the solution for the auditor is not to
cite those standards when they issue their reports, but they
do anyway.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
They do anyway, so they cite them and that gives
them protection even though they didn't follow the standards.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
That's right, Okay, great, No, they tied.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
By the way, the new mobile app to the snowplow
tracker app that the city rolled out, it's not working.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
That's surprising, all right.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So anything give the other component of this wick card
problem again, not keeping track of the inventory wick cards
and not keeping the appropriate records all sounds to me
like it's riddle with fraud and abuse or at least potentially.
So you mentioned also that they have an obligation to
(31:11):
keep track of equipment purchase to run this program, like
the computers and other hardware that's needed to implement it.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
That's right. The program gets about three point five million
dollars a year and that's used for benefits plus the
operation of the office, including or purchase of equipment, so
that equipment is basically federally funded. As a result, they've
got to keep a proper inventory, and the audit found
(31:39):
that that was not happening, so you'd have to go
back and reconstruct. You know, what equipment has been purchased
and is it still here? That's right.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So if you're not doing oversight of the equipment and
you have the authority under this program to purchase and
acquire equipment, some let's say nefarious act might say, oh,
my kids need laptops or Christmas, order the equipment under
the WICK program and then just take it home with you.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Exactly. That's the risk. Uh huh wow.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Tod's answer just scraping the tip of the iceberg in
terms of all the problems he's identified. And you've got
document requests out for this. I suppose at some point,
I mean, is there some sort of legal you know,
some Kurt Hartman out there in the world file lawsuit
over this stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yet you know, it's I'm sure it's possible. It's just
a matter of whether or not you can gather the
resources to pay for something like that.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Well, it usually starts as a Freedom of Information Act request,
which they have to honor, and when they don't honor it,
that's how you end up in court getting the documents
you need, which then will serve as the basis for
the lawsuit you ultimately file your file because they didn't
follow protocols or otherwise found breaches of the law, et cetera.
That's right, all right, Kurt, get on it. Todd'll be
(33:02):
happy to help you on to that end. I mentioned
a nonprofit. You're working toward establishing the purpose of that.
If you get it going, will be well.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
It's got a couple of different purposes. One is to
establish some way to sue the city, because if you
look back at the real reforms that have gone on
in Cincinnati has been the result of federal lawsuits or
other lawsuits. The city does not do these things voluntarily,
(33:33):
and so one objective is to establish an organization that
would take the lead in litigation against the city for
giving purposes exactly. And then the other is to elevate
or bring greater visibility to the whole oversight issue. The
city has no concept of oversight. It's just not part
(33:57):
of their constitution. And that's needed. I mean, they've got
a two billion dollar budget and they've got a four
person internal auditor that is kept basically on a leash.
They need some oversight mechanism like an inspector general that
many many cities across the country have in order to
(34:21):
deliver a oversight program.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Well, and if I had to speculate, since we're out
of time, on who is holding that leash, I have
to imagine it's the city manager. Yes, all right, there
you go. We've had issues with her before, haven't we. Toddzinser,
Yes we have. Yes, we have Todd zens Er Citizen
Watchdogs the podcast. Follow what he's saying on Citizen Watchdog
and tune into the morning show and we have todds
inzer on and share the podcast with your friends. Go
(34:46):
to fifty five krs dot com. Joelo the podcast up later.
Stick around the insight scoop of Bright Barton News Financial,
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