Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Eight o five, a fifty five KRCD talk station, A
very happy Wednesday to I have been looking forward to
this moment in time since I got here in the
morning show to find out that Tom Clavin is on
the rundown. He's joined the program right now to talk
about his new book. By way of background, you probably
already know him, best selling author of twenty five Let
Me Underscore the Word non fiction books on military history,
(00:23):
sports and entertainment. His writing career began in journalism as
a rover reporter for The New York Times fifteen years,
as well as contributed in multiple national magazines, awarded numerous
prizes by the Society of Professional Journalists National Newspaper Association.
His books multiple award winners, including six that made it
to the New York Times Bestseller He has written several screenplays,
(00:44):
including a couple of his books that are currently being
developed as screen projects. And I'm guessing, Tom Claven welcome
that this book we're talking about this morning is going
to be number three. I want to see a movie
about this running Deep Bravery survival and the true story
of the deadliest submarine in World War I to Tom,
it's a pleasure to have you on the program.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, thank you for having me back on the show.
And I agree it would make a terrific movie. Oh
my terrific story. So to begin with, it's insane.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
And you know right now there is a man in
my listening audience, a dear friend of mine, a career submariner,
uh spent his entire career in the military and submarines.
And Mike is out there sitting on the edge of
a seat. You've already sold one book, I assure you, Tom,
And he knew about this boat. He knew about the
Captain Richard Okaine, which is featured in the book. So
let's dive on into it. You described this is the
(01:32):
deadliest submarine in World War Two.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
So like.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Pilots get kills, and they can become you know, certain
levels of pilots an ace. For example, this sub sunk
more vessels than any of the other in the entire
World War Two.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It did it did? It is the USS Tang and
it was the best attack submarine the US had in
the Pacific theater. And it sank thirty three Japanese ships
and what have sunk except that ran into it, you know,
ran into an entire convoy I was trying to take out.
It proved to be a little too much, but the
Tang was was the most recognized. And I'm glad you
(02:10):
mentioned about your friend who knows about Richard o'caine, because
amongst some mariners there seems to be a recognition of
Ocaine and he's like the Navy equivalent of Vaudie Murphy. Yes,
but to the general public they don't. They've never heard
of the guy, which is which is a shame because
he was great the heroic character in World War Two.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, yeah, I wait to you here. We'll get a
brief little sliver of the excitement that these men were
involved with on the submarine. But Mike wanted you and
meet to know my listening audience is going to pass along.
There was a street named after the Tang in Groton,
Connecticut at the submarine base, and the CEO that Richard
Dick o'caine is also apparently they have a officers quarters
(02:50):
named after him on the sub bay. So everyone in
the Navy knows who this guy is. Let's talk about
some of the action they First off, what was life
like in a World War two submarine? I can't imagine
it was fun.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
No, it wasn't. And in fact, you can only volunteer
for submarine duty. You cannot be assigned to it because
it was It was not only very cramped and very
tight quarters. If you're claustrophobic, you you were sunk, you
can say. But it was dangerous. It was. You know,
the mortality rate for a submarine sailor was six times
(03:24):
that of a surface ship sailor. So so that we
lost fifty two boats was sunk during World War two,
and so there was a lot of a lot of
the Navy guys they said nothing to do with submarines,
but they turned out to be especially effective. And the
tang was it was head and shoulders above the other
submarines and being able to hunt down and sink Japanese shipping.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well, you're right about psychological profile to serve on a submarine,
I personally would not pass that test. The idea of
it's less about claustrophobia, Tom, but the idea of depth
charges exploding around you at any moment in time, you
might I implode and sink to the bottom of the sea,
which we're going to talk about here in a minute.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, the yeah, you could be bonds. You'd be sailing
on the surface and a plane spots you. It could
bother you. You can be under water and a depth
charges like you said, could come and get you. There
could be a malfunction. And the thing is when a
submarine is in danger of sinking and it goes under
the water, there's no way to go. I mean, one
of the things about it. If you want a destroyer or
(04:25):
a battleship or an aircraft carrier and it's damaged, you
have the option of getting into a lifeboat, or if
you need to jump overboard and hold on to something.
In a submarine, there's no jumping overboard. There's no way out.
So that's another reason why it was especially risky and
tension film way of.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Serving the maybe well, you go into great detail about
this and then let's fast forward. And obviously I don't
want a huge reveal on this, but it's so exciting conceptually.
This is the book selling moment right here, at this
moment in time, Tom Clayvin Let's fast forward to October
twenty fourth, nineteen forty four.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yes, eighty one years ago, this Friday, and the tang
is in the Foremosa Strait, which is off the coast
of China and it encounters an entire Japanese convoy. Now,
some submarines were operated in packs one one submarine, but
the tank was always a kind of a lone wolf.
It was by itself. Saw this convoy, it couldn't let
it pass pass through. So an attack that took out
(05:23):
an entire convoy. It was actually destroying it when it
fired its last torpedo, which boomerang came back and struck
the tang. It sank to a ndred. It came the
rest of the bottom a hundred and eighty feet. The
captain and some of the crew members rightaged to survive.
It's a really exciting sequence out of the boat.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Okay, there's a lot of process here. They were sunk
by their own torpedo. I didn't even know that was
a concept, Tom. I guess we're happy we have more
modern technology that can't happen anymore.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well. One of the reveals I think of Running Deep
is how inadequate a lot of our torpedoes were. I mean,
when you watch a movie about World War Two and
somebody fires a torp, you know it always hits the target,
but a lot of times too often, and where we're
to the reality was that that torpedoes would explode too early,
they would be completely duds, and they can boomerang, they
could the gyroscope would go crazy and they would come
(06:12):
around as in case of the tank, and strike the
tank in the stern. It sank stern first. A lot
of the guys and the boat were killed, but some
managed to escape and get to the surface where you
know they went for the frying pan to the fire
because they were rescued by Japanese sailors who weren't too
happy about the submarine that I just destroyed a lot
of the shipping, No.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I imagine not so they sink one hundred and eighty
feet down. Eighty seven total crew men were on this submarine,
which again I'm trying to struggle with the reality of
the living conditions in this tightest space with eighty seven
but nine and managed to get to the surface. Can
I just say ask real briefly, how the how do
(06:52):
you get from one hundred and eighty feet down in
a sealed container to get to the surface.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Well, you know there are two or three the captain
and the cup of guys were on the bridge when
the torpedo hits. They were thrown into the water, but
there were six others that down below that. They had
this device called the Bobson lung which was invented right
before the war, which you put it on and it's
sort of like it's not a scuba diving kind of thing,
and so that's just a little inflatable thing. But the
idea was they could give you enough boxygen to give
(07:18):
you a chance to get to the surface. And so
that's what these guys did. They put any Bobson lungs
they got into it the escape chamber, they would push
down into the water and they headed for the surface.
Some made it, some did not.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Now I have to ask you, are these like parachutes?
Every of the eighty every one of the eighty seven
crewmen had one of they used to use.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Well, they were on board, let's put it that way.
Life preservers. You didn't bother or even thinking about them
until you absolutely needed them and hope they would work.
It was like one was issued to every sailor was
hopefully in the escape chamber. You'd find them available.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
All right. So when they make it to the top,
the remaining nine survivors and nine survivors. They were in
fact captured by the Japanese and placed on what you
described in the book as a torture can camp.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, torture camp because they they were considered almost like
terrorists because they preyed on civilian shipping, which you know,
like the Japanese equivalent of the Verti marine, and so
they were in the brutal conditions very similar to what
the book Unbroken. In fact, Louis Zamparini, he was the
hero of the book Unbroken, was one of Captain o'cane's
fellow officers at this particular torture camp, and Okane was
(08:25):
a particular target because let's let's they found out he
was a captain of the submarine that had destroyed more shipping,
more of their boats than any ships than any of
the submarine. They really had it out for him, and
he barely survived.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But to the camp we liberated, Oh I bet he
was a target of some serious abuse, sir, I truly believe.
Oh yeah, well, and he did, I guess, ultimately earn
the highest award of the land, the Medal of Honor,
as well as other decorations. Was it for his service
obviously on the tang. But it was because of this
particular operation where they sunk so many of this Japanese fleet.
(09:01):
Is that the basis for his receiving the Medal of Honor.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Well, I should point out that that Rizie O'Kane was
like the Audie Murphy of the US Navy. He was
the most decorated naval officer of World War two. So
he had already been recognized for his service for operating,
being the captain of this terrific effective submarine. But I
think what got in the Medal of Honor is that
during his captivity the torture camp, he endured, and he
(09:26):
got his men to endure, he got others to endure.
He was really an inspiration that he would basically I
almost call this book undefeated. He refused to be defeated
by no matter what the Japanese hold out to him,
and I think that helped other people survive terrific conditions.
So I think the Medal of Honor was morefferent for
his survival and the survival of others.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Wow, and a great lesson to be learned for us
who struggle with you know, a fraction of the day
to day challenges that he struggled with You know, inspiration
can be derived from a man who walked out of
a torture camp at ninety pounds after being subjected to
that abuse. That's truly, truly something be said, Tom clavel,
Let me ask you this, did you have in doing
your research for this? Did you have access to diaries
(10:05):
or personal accounts by the people who served on the
ship on the submarine. Where did you come up with
the information to understand these day to day conditions and
what they went through?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Well, I'm wanted to mention that because they they the
survivors of the tank got back to the United States
and once they recovered enough physically from their various injuries,
they were all debriefed and and there's also all histories
at the World War Two Center Museum in New Orleans.
Richard o'caine years later, which is it's been very interesting,
(10:35):
he wrote a book called Clear the Bridge about his
experiences as a tank captain, but he only devoted two
pages to his a year long incarceration in that torture camp.
Like even years later, he couldn't he couldn't bear to
write about it. There are other officers that kept diary,
so yes, there was, thankfully lucky for me, a lot
of archivo material to draw from.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
How did I'd never heard of the tank obviously didn't
serve in the military, most notably Navy on a submarine
like Mike did. But how did you learn personally of
the tang and Richard O'Kaine to write this book? Because
this is yet another, as far as I know, untold
story coming out of World War Two. It's twenty twenty five.
You'd think we'd have heard all of this by now, Tom.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Exactly how could there still be a story we don't
know about? But again, I was researching something else and
I stumbled upon I mentioned of Audio Murphy, comparing him
to Richard O'Kaine because of being the most decorated officers.
I said, I've never heard of this guy. Most people
have heard of Audio Murphy because he went on to
become a Hollywood star and made movies right like that.
But Richard O'Cain, who the heck is that? You know?
(11:36):
A guy whom boorn in New Hampshire and he became
one of the most decorated officer of the Navy. So
that's how I sort of stumbled upon it, and it
was one of those things where I just kept peeling
back layers and finding more information and more information found
out about the Tang. How could nobody noticed it? About
the Tang and the most effective submarine in World War Two?
So the more I learned, the more I realized, this
is just an incredible story. And thankfully it's not been told,
(12:00):
you know, for a mainstream audience until Running Deep.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
That's why we have you, Tom Claven doing it time
after time after time. Twenty five non fiction books. I
guess does this make it twenty six or is this
number twenty five?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
You know, I'm like Jack Benny, who'd never got past
age thirty nine. I had twenty five books. That's a
nice story. I'm sticking to it. There you go.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Congratulations on the winning of the New York Times Bestseller.
Another one. We're going to talk about six New York
Times bestsellers. Everyone's going to want to get a copy
of Running Deep, Bravery Survival and the True Story of
the Deadliest Submarine of World War Two. Tom, It's always
a pleasure talking with you. Keep up the great work,
and I know my listen is going to grab up
a copy of this. We've already got it on my blog
page at fifty five carose dot com to make it
really easy for them to do that,
Eight o five, a fifty five KRCD talk station, A
very happy Wednesday to I have been looking forward to
this moment in time since I got here in the
morning show to find out that Tom Clavin is on
the rundown. He's joined the program right now to talk
about his new book. By way of background, you probably
already know him, best selling author of twenty five Let
Me Underscore the Word non fiction books on military history,
(00:23):
sports and entertainment. His writing career began in journalism as
a rover reporter for The New York Times fifteen years,
as well as contributed in multiple national magazines, awarded numerous
prizes by the Society of Professional Journalists National Newspaper Association.
His books multiple award winners, including six that made it
to the New York Times Bestseller He has written several screenplays,
(00:44):
including a couple of his books that are currently being
developed as screen projects. And I'm guessing, Tom Claven welcome
that this book we're talking about this morning is going
to be number three. I want to see a movie
about this running Deep Bravery survival and the true story
of the deadliest submarine in World War I to Tom,
it's a pleasure to have you on the program.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, thank you for having me back on the show.
And I agree it would make a terrific movie. Oh
my terrific story. So to begin with, it's insane.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
And you know right now there is a man in
my listening audience, a dear friend of mine, a career submariner,
uh spent his entire career in the military and submarines.
And Mike is out there sitting on the edge of
a seat. You've already sold one book, I assure you, Tom,
And he knew about this boat. He knew about the
Captain Richard Okaine, which is featured in the book. So
let's dive on into it. You described this is the
(01:32):
deadliest submarine in World War Two.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
So like.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Pilots get kills, and they can become you know, certain
levels of pilots an ace. For example, this sub sunk
more vessels than any of the other in the entire
World War Two.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It did it did? It is the USS Tang and
it was the best attack submarine the US had in
the Pacific theater. And it sank thirty three Japanese ships
and what have sunk except that ran into it, you know,
ran into an entire convoy I was trying to take out.
It proved to be a little too much, but the
Tang was was the most recognized. And I'm glad you
(02:10):
mentioned about your friend who knows about Richard o'caine, because
amongst some mariners there seems to be a recognition of
Ocaine and he's like the Navy equivalent of Vaudie Murphy. Yes,
but to the general public they don't. They've never heard
of the guy, which is which is a shame because
he was great the heroic character in World War Two.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, yeah, I wait to you here. We'll get a
brief little sliver of the excitement that these men were
involved with on the submarine. But Mike wanted you and
meet to know my listening audience is going to pass along.
There was a street named after the Tang in Groton,
Connecticut at the submarine base, and the CEO that Richard
Dick o'caine is also apparently they have a officers quarters
(02:50):
named after him on the sub bay. So everyone in
the Navy knows who this guy is. Let's talk about
some of the action they First off, what was life
like in a World War two submarine? I can't imagine
it was fun.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
No, it wasn't. And in fact, you can only volunteer
for submarine duty. You cannot be assigned to it because
it was It was not only very cramped and very
tight quarters. If you're claustrophobic, you you were sunk, you
can say. But it was dangerous. It was. You know,
the mortality rate for a submarine sailor was six times
(03:24):
that of a surface ship sailor. So so that we
lost fifty two boats was sunk during World War two,
and so there was a lot of a lot of
the Navy guys they said nothing to do with submarines,
but they turned out to be especially effective. And the
tang was it was head and shoulders above the other
submarines and being able to hunt down and sink Japanese shipping.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well, you're right about psychological profile to serve on a submarine,
I personally would not pass that test. The idea of
it's less about claustrophobia, Tom, but the idea of depth
charges exploding around you at any moment in time, you
might I implode and sink to the bottom of the sea,
which we're going to talk about here in a minute.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, the yeah, you could be bonds. You'd be sailing
on the surface and a plane spots you. It could
bother you. You can be under water and a depth
charges like you said, could come and get you. There
could be a malfunction. And the thing is when a
submarine is in danger of sinking and it goes under
the water, there's no way to go. I mean, one
of the things about it. If you want a destroyer or
(04:25):
a battleship or an aircraft carrier and it's damaged, you
have the option of getting into a lifeboat, or if
you need to jump overboard and hold on to something.
In a submarine, there's no jumping overboard. There's no way out.
So that's another reason why it was especially risky and
tension film way of.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Serving the maybe well, you go into great detail about
this and then let's fast forward. And obviously I don't
want a huge reveal on this, but it's so exciting conceptually.
This is the book selling moment right here, at this
moment in time, Tom Clayvin Let's fast forward to October
twenty fourth, nineteen forty four.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yes, eighty one years ago, this Friday, and the tang
is in the Foremosa Strait, which is off the coast
of China and it encounters an entire Japanese convoy. Now,
some submarines were operated in packs one one submarine, but
the tank was always a kind of a lone wolf.
It was by itself. Saw this convoy, it couldn't let
it pass pass through. So an attack that took out
(05:23):
an entire convoy. It was actually destroying it when it
fired its last torpedo, which boomerang came back and struck
the tang. It sank to a ndred. It came the
rest of the bottom a hundred and eighty feet. The
captain and some of the crew members rightaged to survive.
It's a really exciting sequence out of the boat.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Okay, there's a lot of process here. They were sunk
by their own torpedo. I didn't even know that was
a concept, Tom. I guess we're happy we have more
modern technology that can't happen anymore.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well. One of the reveals I think of Running Deep
is how inadequate a lot of our torpedoes were. I mean,
when you watch a movie about World War Two and
somebody fires a torp, you know it always hits the target,
but a lot of times too often, and where we're
to the reality was that that torpedoes would explode too early,
they would be completely duds, and they can boomerang, they
could the gyroscope would go crazy and they would come
(06:12):
around as in case of the tank, and strike the
tank in the stern. It sank stern first. A lot
of the guys and the boat were killed, but some
managed to escape and get to the surface where you
know they went for the frying pan to the fire
because they were rescued by Japanese sailors who weren't too
happy about the submarine that I just destroyed a lot
of the shipping, No.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I imagine not so they sink one hundred and eighty
feet down. Eighty seven total crew men were on this submarine,
which again I'm trying to struggle with the reality of
the living conditions in this tightest space with eighty seven
but nine and managed to get to the surface. Can
I just say ask real briefly, how the how do
(06:52):
you get from one hundred and eighty feet down in
a sealed container to get to the surface.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Well, you know there are two or three the captain
and the cup of guys were on the bridge when
the torpedo hits. They were thrown into the water, but
there were six others that down below that. They had
this device called the Bobson lung which was invented right
before the war, which you put it on and it's
sort of like it's not a scuba diving kind of thing,
and so that's just a little inflatable thing. But the
idea was they could give you enough boxygen to give
(07:18):
you a chance to get to the surface. And so
that's what these guys did. They put any Bobson lungs
they got into it the escape chamber, they would push
down into the water and they headed for the surface.
Some made it, some did not.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Now I have to ask you, are these like parachutes?
Every of the eighty every one of the eighty seven
crewmen had one of they used to use.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Well, they were on board, let's put it that way.
Life preservers. You didn't bother or even thinking about them
until you absolutely needed them and hope they would work.
It was like one was issued to every sailor was
hopefully in the escape chamber. You'd find them available.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
All right. So when they make it to the top,
the remaining nine survivors and nine survivors. They were in
fact captured by the Japanese and placed on what you
described in the book as a torture can camp.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, torture camp because they they were considered almost like
terrorists because they preyed on civilian shipping, which you know,
like the Japanese equivalent of the Verti marine, and so
they were in the brutal conditions very similar to what
the book Unbroken. In fact, Louis Zamparini, he was the
hero of the book Unbroken, was one of Captain o'cane's
fellow officers at this particular torture camp, and Okane was
(08:25):
a particular target because let's let's they found out he
was a captain of the submarine that had destroyed more shipping,
more of their boats than any ships than any of
the submarine. They really had it out for him, and
he barely survived.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But to the camp we liberated, Oh I bet he
was a target of some serious abuse, sir, I truly believe.
Oh yeah, well, and he did, I guess, ultimately earn
the highest award of the land, the Medal of Honor,
as well as other decorations. Was it for his service
obviously on the tang. But it was because of this
particular operation where they sunk so many of this Japanese fleet.
(09:01):
Is that the basis for his receiving the Medal of Honor.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Well, I should point out that that Rizie O'Kane was
like the Audie Murphy of the US Navy. He was
the most decorated naval officer of World War two. So
he had already been recognized for his service for operating,
being the captain of this terrific effective submarine. But I
think what got in the Medal of Honor is that
during his captivity the torture camp, he endured, and he
(09:26):
got his men to endure, he got others to endure.
He was really an inspiration that he would basically I
almost call this book undefeated. He refused to be defeated
by no matter what the Japanese hold out to him,
and I think that helped other people survive terrific conditions.
So I think the Medal of Honor was morefferent for
his survival and the survival of others.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Wow, and a great lesson to be learned for us
who struggle with you know, a fraction of the day
to day challenges that he struggled with You know, inspiration
can be derived from a man who walked out of
a torture camp at ninety pounds after being subjected to
that abuse. That's truly, truly something be said, Tom clavel,
Let me ask you this, did you have in doing
your research for this? Did you have access to diaries
(10:05):
or personal accounts by the people who served on the
ship on the submarine. Where did you come up with
the information to understand these day to day conditions and
what they went through?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Well, I'm wanted to mention that because they they the
survivors of the tank got back to the United States
and once they recovered enough physically from their various injuries,
they were all debriefed and and there's also all histories
at the World War Two Center Museum in New Orleans.
Richard o'caine years later, which is it's been very interesting,
(10:35):
he wrote a book called Clear the Bridge about his
experiences as a tank captain, but he only devoted two
pages to his a year long incarceration in that torture camp.
Like even years later, he couldn't he couldn't bear to
write about it. There are other officers that kept diary,
so yes, there was, thankfully lucky for me, a lot
of archivo material to draw from.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
How did I'd never heard of the tank obviously didn't
serve in the military, most notably Navy on a submarine
like Mike did. But how did you learn personally of
the tang and Richard O'Kaine to write this book? Because
this is yet another, as far as I know, untold
story coming out of World War Two. It's twenty twenty five.
You'd think we'd have heard all of this by now, Tom.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Exactly how could there still be a story we don't
know about? But again, I was researching something else and
I stumbled upon I mentioned of Audio Murphy, comparing him
to Richard O'Kaine because of being the most decorated officers.
I said, I've never heard of this guy. Most people
have heard of Audio Murphy because he went on to
become a Hollywood star and made movies right like that.
But Richard O'Cain, who the heck is that? You know?
(11:36):
A guy whom boorn in New Hampshire and he became
one of the most decorated officer of the Navy. So
that's how I sort of stumbled upon it, and it
was one of those things where I just kept peeling
back layers and finding more information and more information found
out about the Tang. How could nobody noticed it? About
the Tang and the most effective submarine in World War Two?
So the more I learned, the more I realized, this
is just an incredible story. And thankfully it's not been told,
(12:00):
you know, for a mainstream audience until Running Deep.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
That's why we have you, Tom Claven doing it time
after time after time. Twenty five non fiction books. I
guess does this make it twenty six or is this
number twenty five?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
You know, I'm like Jack Benny, who'd never got past
age thirty nine. I had twenty five books. That's a
nice story. I'm sticking to it. There you go.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Congratulations on the winning of the New York Times Bestseller.
Another one. We're going to talk about six New York
Times bestsellers. Everyone's going to want to get a copy
of Running Deep, Bravery Survival and the True Story of
the Deadliest Submarine of World War Two. Tom, It's always
a pleasure talking with you. Keep up the great work,
and I know my listen is going to grab up
a copy of this. We've already got it on my blog
page at fifty five carose dot com to make it
really easy for them to do that,
Brian Thomas News
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