October 1, 2024 • 24 mins
Award-winning filmmaker Nicholas Ma discusses his new documentary, "Leap of Faith," in theaters nationwide on October 4th!
Twelve diverse Christian leaders find hope and fellowship at a series of boundary-breaking retreats in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Brought together by Michael Gulker of The Colossian Forum, five women and seven men struggle with some of today's most contentious issues. The divisions between them become apparent and test both their common belief in the universal importance of love and kindness and the bonds they build over the course of a year.
Inspiring and provocative, LEAP OF FAITH explores whether we can disagree and still belong to each other in a divided world.
Twelve diverse Christian leaders find hope and fellowship at a series of boundary-breaking retreats in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Brought together by Michael Gulker of The Colossian Forum, five women and seven men struggle with some of today's most contentious issues. The divisions between them become apparent and test both their common belief in the universal importance of love and kindness and the bonds they build over the course of a year.
Inspiring and provocative, LEAP OF FAITH explores whether we can disagree and still belong to each other in a divided world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Jam Royce Show, All about Movies.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You are listening to The Jam Price Show All about Movies,
and today my guest is award winning producer director Nicholas
ma and we're going to be talking about is new
documentary entitled Leap of Faith. Welcome to the show, Nicholas.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Janet's wonderful to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It's nice to have you here.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Well, when I saw this, I said, immediately I want
to see this film, and I really want to interview
you so our audience knows what we will be talking about.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Why don't you give a brief anausis of what Leap
of Faith is all about.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
Sure, you know, I made a movie a couple of
years ago called Won't You Be My Neighbor?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
About Fred rot another brilliant, wonderful documentary you.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
And at the end of that movie, audiences would always
ask Morgan and me, where are the Fred Rogers of today?
And I didn't have an answer, and that was really
troubling to me. Made me think, gosh, do we not
have people like that? Have we've forgotten people like that?
Do we not see them?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
What's going on?
Speaker 4 (00:55):
That sort of idea rattled around the back of my mind.
And then when we were asked to look sort of
evangelicalism in the Midwest, I came across Michael Gulker and
an article in the Wall Street Journal about what he
was doing to bridge congregations across difference. I was just
fascinated in this moment where we all seem to be
dividing so dramatically, and where Christianity seems to be dividing
(01:16):
so dramatically, that somehow he was doing something that was
holding people together. So I started a conversation and he said,
you know what, I want to do something more ambitious.
I want to bring twelve pastors together from across the
theological spectrum to see if there's any way that they
can still hold together in the middle of this moment
of huge division, this national disagreement, to put it mildly
that we're in. And I said, okay, well that's interesting.
(01:38):
If they'll put it on film, then you know, let's
see what we can do. And they did, and the
result was a leap of faith, and the unexpected result
was the answer to that question. Fred Rodgers was a
Midwest minister who took his ministry to television and here
are over a dozen pastors taking their ministry to film
and trying to say, Okay, maybe there is a way
(01:59):
to see each other as lovable and to love each
other even across these differences.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
That seem so insurmountable.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
So it's, uh, it's a bit of a doozy and
about as unexpected as mister Rodgers neighborhood it as for children.
Speaker 5 (02:11):
So it really was fascinating to see how different and
diverse each one of them was in their base. I mean,
you know, and you're right, because we've become so divisive
and you know, and when you say evangelical right now.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Kind of like you I don't know. It's like when
somebody says to me they're a Christian, I'm going, what
does that mean exactly?
Speaker 6 (02:34):
And so to see that diversity within the different congregations
you brought in, because there's each one of them is
from a very different congregation, right, Some were evangelical, some work.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So let's talk about that too. How you got how
you gathered all of these pastors that come together and
to agree to come together, and yeah, that's let's just
start with that question because I have many others.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Sure, of course, we had a deal with Michael Galker,
who brought this group together, that he would put the
group together that he would thought would be most interesting.
I just have one rule, which was whatever it was,
it needed to be hard. That making it doable was
not what made something exciting for film. Making something that
felt hard and maybe even impossible was what would be
interesting to watch. And he definitely met that challenge head on,
(03:18):
bringing in very conservative pastors all the way through to
a Mary lesbian pastor who won on the patent. Most
of the pastors would neither ordain nor marry, So you
have this sort of full range of the expression of
Christianity and also that sort of subtle reminder to all
of us about how we flatten other people and how
you know, I'm in Brooklyn and when I go to
Grand Rapids, everyone had a picture of what it means
(03:39):
to be from Brooklyn there, and I had my picture
of what it meant to be a pastor in Grand Rapids.
And we're all a little bit more complicated than that.
And I think actually doing it on film was in
some ways an inducement to these pastors because they talk
about Scripture Colossians one seventeen, all things hold together in Christ.
You know, that was sort of Michael's big idea. And
the question was that I asked him, was is that true?
(04:01):
Because that's not the way it looks from where I'm sitting.
And he said, well, I'll put that challenge to these pastors.
And these pastors said, okay, let's see that's that's a
test that felt worthy to them and fascinating to me.
And I think we often sort of look very far
afield to explore subjects for documentaries. You know, we look
at what's happening in jazz trios, in Mongolia or Alaskan fishermen.
(04:24):
And it's also beautiful to look within our country at
places that often we don't really see with the same
kind of clarity and empathy, and to discover ourselves there too.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Why Grand Rapid let's talk about Grand Rapids because it's
a part of this film. Another person almost in the.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Film it truly is.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I mean, Grand Rapids is such a fascinating place. On
the one hand, you know, it's where Amway is headquartered.
It's sort of been a huge part of a sort
of a rival of Chicago early and it's in its days.
It's also the seed of a lot of modern Christianity.
A bunch of Christian denominations, in Christian publishing and Christian universe.
He's like cornerstone in Calvin. But it also feels like
so many cities. It feels we showed this film in
(05:07):
Saint Louis and everyone there was like, Saint Louis is
just like Grand Rapids.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So there's a.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Way in which it sort of provides that everyman backdrop
without ever losing focus as a fascinating place in and
of itself.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Interesting choice. Well, that's where pest istas correct, That's right.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
All of them came from Grand Rapids.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
And initially we thought about doing it somewhere else, but
Michael said, you know what, there's enough going on here
that we owe it to our community to try to
do this here. We have our own divisions, and we
can't start by solving other people's problems. We have to
look at our own.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Hey, and I thought that was very interesting that he
had been doing these with pastors from all over the
country and then you know, realizing he needed to do
it in his hometown. So that was best. And the
fact there are so many diverse churches and many many churches,
and Grand Rapids not like you just have a few,
you have a lot.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
You cannot walk a block without finding a church. In
Grand Rapids, there more churches than gas stations. It's it's uh,
it's a very well churched city. So it's a place
where Christianity is very top of mind.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
For a lot of people. So let's go.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Into the gay married pastor because a lot of the
story does evolve around her and her beliefs. And I
have to tell you, when I was watching this, I said,
I go to a church where we have a married
gay pastor that she's a co pastor with someone else,
two women. I love it, uh and a totally different perspective.
(06:30):
And I thought, oh, I really want to show this,
and they have they do movie nights, so I'm thinking,
I got of see, hope we can show this film
the church. I think this would be great to do that.
But an, yeah, and it's a non denominational church that
I go to and we're all embracing and you know,
and it's about love and you know unity, it's unity
and it's the church, you know. So uh so I think,
(06:52):
you know, this would be very good to screen with them,
and I'm sure a lot of churches, so uh, But
let's talk about let's go back back and talk about
the pastor who is gay and married and and the
reaction to her. I thought, you know, this was I
think that was the center of the film for me.
I mean it felt like that. I'm sure it was
for you true, but that was the center because people
(07:15):
had the hardest time with her being gay, and I
think that was.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Yeah, I think it's really you know, I think they
We didn't set out to make a movie about sexuality.
Michael didn't set out to make a group that focused
on sexuality. The pastors didn't set out to talk about it.
But somehow that was ineluctably where the conversation kept coming
back to, and this question of what does it mean
(07:43):
to love each other across differences?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
And I think one of.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
The encounter is so important, right, what does it mean
when we encounter someone else, whether it's someone of a
different race, as somewhat of a different religion, some of
a different sexuality.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
And that encounter is scary.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
You know already said that first day when he came
into the room, he didn't sleep the night before because
he wasn't sure how he was going to be in
that room. But encounter is also beautiful and we have
to hold those two things in our head and see
how do we allow those things to breathe into each
(08:25):
other rather than you know, argue with each other.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And I think so much of this year was.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Spent on that question of what can encounter mean? And
what I love is, you know, Joan has this extraordinary
way of reminding us of the dignity that we all
have within us, regardless of where we're coming from. And
she grants that dignity in her work, particularly with the
(08:54):
unhoused and people who have disabilities, and she brings that
to her work and to her language. And I really
love that. There's a moment where, you know, they're arguing
about the question of LGBTQ inclusion, and she says, I
(09:15):
think we're asking the wrong question.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
The question that's interesting to me is that the spirit,
and she's talking Christian terms here, is saying one thing
to you and something different to me, but it's the
same spirit. What does that mean that we're hearing different things?
And what could the spirit be trying to do and
creating that friction? And I think that's such a beautiful
idea to think that maybe these divisions that we find
in our lives are actually opportunities, opportunities that force us
(09:41):
to look at each other more deeply because we don't understand,
because we know we don't understand. We know this is unfamiliar,
and maybe there's a way of saying, huh, maybe in
that unfamiliarity we discover something about ourselves and about the world.
And I think I just love the way she points
constantly points us there, because it's something that I, you.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Know, I feel like I.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
I realize how much my life is a bubble, you know,
where I live, and how rarely I encounter certain types
of difference, and so I'm grateful for that and that
reminder that that difference is something to hunger for versus
to protect myself against.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
You think you have lots of the first people that
you're meeting.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Totally In some ways, yes, and yet in other ways.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
I would talk about this documentary with my friends and
they would say, well, it's a little bit niche, don't
you think.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
This documentary on Christianity?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, you know, over fifty
percent of the country would probably argue that it's not
terribly niche.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
But that's that's that give and take of oh, Wow.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
We find we see diversity in our community in some
ways and not in others. And it's very easy for
us to become complacent about the ways in which were similar,
and see those ways in which were similar as as moral.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Goods, as supposed to do, as ways of keeping us comfortable.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Well, yes, you know, if we believe that, you know,
we're all children of God. He made each and every
one of us. So for whatever journey we have, why
we came down on the planet at this particular time,
for whatever journey, and the experiences and the things that
we all need to learn along the way. I feel
(11:37):
blessed because I've lived all over this country. I grew
up and actually born in New Jersey, but when I
was four months old, moved to the Midwest, and so
I lived in Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois, and then back
east again and into New New Jersey, New York, Connecticut,
and then I lived in the South. I lived in Atlanta,
I lived in Salt Lake City, Mormonism. I've lived in Arizona.
(11:59):
Now I'm California. So I've transversed the country, and so
I got to see a lot of it and experience
a lot of those the diversity of this country. I mean,
it's just I feel blessed that I've had that experience
and it has enriched me and the way that I
interact with people, and I think and I think, it's
(12:21):
just I just feel, as I said, very very blessed
because I've come across all. I mean, in the South,
it's a whole new world, it's a whole new way.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
It's a totally different ecosystem. And you can you you
can't transport your own ecosystem into someone else's world and
say no, it has to go like this. You know,
we you know, we always choke as New Yorkers that
you can, always fought the New Yorker because they have
seven modifications to their sandwich when they order it Adela.
You know, it's like, yeah, but I don't want this,
and I do want this, but be really light on
(12:52):
the mayo.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And you know, Meg Ryan, We're all a part of
Meg Ryan's.
Speaker 7 (12:56):
Exactly exactly, exactly exactly I I love.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
I think what's so interesting is that the movie has
spoken so deeply to people that aren't in any way
connected with Christianity, right, who sort of see this as
a documentary in the same way you might see someone
you know who lives in a totally different place and
just sort of explore it from that vantage point and
just see how hard it is to really see somebody
(13:23):
else who you disagree with, and they immediately take it
back into their life and they're like, oh, I can
think of seven people in my life that I could
love a little bit better.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I could love a little bit better, And that's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
It's sort of to me if all of us could,
you know, find a couple of relationships in our life
that we could love a little bit.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Better, and that would be great. That would be great.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
It is beautiful to work. And that's what this film does,
you know, it opens us up to look at exactly that.
You know, where can we where can we love more?
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Love?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Can we go out of our way to help more,
you know, or try to underst stand or reach out
someone from another country and or or upbringing our culture now?
Speaker 7 (14:07):
And you know what, exactly, exactly exactly, we're so quick
to say, no, I couldn't possibly sit it at a
table with you, I couldn't possibly be part of an
organization with you.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
And and.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Sure, maybe that's true sometimes, but a lot of the
time it's not a lot of the time, you know,
we're all out there trying to say, you know, I
just want to do the right thing for my kids.
I want to do the right thing for my parents.
I want to do the right thing for my friends
and my neighbors. And you know, we may have different
views on what that is and how that works. But
if we know that that's what we're trying to do,
(14:43):
then maybe there's a little bit more space too for grace,
you know, to put it in a Christian context, and
just patience if you want to put it in a
humanist context, because with patients, with time, a lot of
things change, you know, I see that all the time. Now,
you know, it's a I think back to myself as
the teenager and my impatience with the world, and I
(15:04):
realize now I think that you know, it was actually
I think Joan who put this so beautifully, that social
justice is urgent, right, It's urgent, and social change is
very often slow. And the work is to hold those
two things in your head and not go crazy. Right,
You can't let your foot off the accelerator and say
(15:25):
we have to fix things in the world and make
the world a better place. We can't be like, oh, no,
social change is slow, so we can just lay back.
But we also can't say be disappointed every day that
we haven't made more progress, because you know, it's the long,
slow boring of hardwood that is what this is. And
you know, we wake up every day and so how
can I make the world a little bit better today
(15:46):
than it was yesterday? And then how can I go
to keep and wake up the next morning and do
it again?
Speaker 5 (15:50):
You know?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
And I think if we can, if we all see
that as the accomplishment that it is, I think it's
tremendous what we can achieve. I think it's tremendous.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
That's beautiful, beautiful, and you're right, just do it every day,
do it a little bit better, get it right.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Now.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
We're just garage with so much negativity and so device,
so much divisiveness, and this is where we need to
start to learn to come together. And that's what this
film really demonstrates so beautifully, help people different beliefs that
the space can come together and and begin to understand
each other the way that they hadn't before. You know,
(16:30):
it really has been what is the response? Just let
me do a quick break here, Ben if you're just
tuning in. I did the dam fresh all about movies today.
My guess is award winning producer director Nicholas ma and
we were talking about a new documentary entitled Sleep of Faith.
So what what lesson did you learn the most when
(16:50):
you filmed this? When you were filming it, before you
went in, did you have an idea that of one thing?
And then did it shift and change while you were
filming this?
Speaker 4 (17:00):
It was like trying to grab hold of a snake,
you know. It's like it was always moving in a
different direction. And every time I thought I was going
to go left, it went right, and vice versa. And
I but that's the beauty of verite documentaries. You have
to lean into it and let the unexpected. You know,
if it's not unexpected to me, it's not going to
(17:21):
feel unexpected to a viewer. And this documentary just takes
these twists and turns into Michael's private life, into the
strange needs of these pastors and concerns, and you know,
into an answer at the end that is not so
much of an answer as a question and as a hope.
And I just think there's something so wonderful about that.
(17:42):
And I think it taught me to hold whatever it
is loosely. I'm not going to change my beliefs. I'm
pretty confident in that, but I'm going to hold them
a little more loosely because there's space that I didn't
know as possible. And you know, I have a six
month old daughter, and I would leave my six month
old daughter with any of these pastors, and that is,
(18:03):
you know, that is the highest side of trust that
I can think of. And I don't know if I
would have thought that day one walking and I don't
know if I would have thought that four months into
the process, eight months into the process, but you know,
and now it's been a number of years and what's
evolved and the relationships that evolved have continued to surprise
and nourish me. So you know, I jokingly refer to
(18:24):
them as my pastors.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
You know, it's like, oh, I.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Gotta go see my pastors. And you know, most people
don't have, you know, more than a dozen pastors. But uh,
but I guess and I certainly didn't expect to, but
I guess I do, and I'm grateful for it.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
So well do you So you do keep in touch
with them very much?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So I was just a welo this morning.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, yeah, So how is that was? How long ago
did you finish filming this?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
We finished filming in h at the end of twenty
twenty three, but we really it finished earlier than that.
We just had pickups that we were doing. But I
I stay in touch with them all the time, you know.
I was just emailing with Andrew Vanover today, one of
the more conservative pastors, and he had asked me on
(19:10):
day one how he could trust me that I wasn't
going to turn it into reality television, you know, And
I said, well, if you don't know wine in people's faces,
you know, there's.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Not much I can do.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
So I sent him a note today because you know,
the movie's coming out, and I said, just so you know,
we've changed the title to the Real Pastors of Grand Rapids,
and I hope you don't mind doesn't.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Editing, And you know, he wrote back with a with
a big laugh.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
So no. I mean, it's a lot of trust that
it gets built up, and a lot of vulnerability that's
required to sort of say these things that you're worried
makes you unlovable, you know, like being honest about her
wife and saying you know, I don't want to hide
in the closet. I want to be the pastor that
I am. And wife puts it beautifully, she's you know,
I want to know that, you know, I can be
a lesbian and I can love Jesus because I do.
(19:56):
You know, there's existence proof of these things, and they're is.
I think for each of these pastors the courage to
say this is how I interpret my faith and I
want to love you better. I'm like, khudos to you.
That's Those are the journeys that are hard to take.
Those are the journeys that are hard to take.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Very definitely, very differently. Alpha still in touch with them.
Did they still all get together and how how things
changed for them since they fell.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
It's kind of amazing they get together and in ways
that I certainly would never have expected. Already invited Molly
Already is one of the most conservative pastors, and Mollie's
one of the most liberal to come to his you know,
very conservative believe in our City day, which includes a
prayer over the US Constitution. And she was a little
bit you know, overwhelmed at first, but then she came
(20:44):
back the next day and has been reading about the
constitution ever since. She invited James, who's from the historically
Black church, to come to the North End Pastors group,
which had never had a member of historically black churches
part of it, and he's become one of the most
active members and it's changed him.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
It's changed that group.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
He watched the film and then realized that he and
Joan hadn't spent the time together that he wanted to,
and he said, Joan, how can we work together more often?
I really, I see you know so much of what
we're doing in peril, even if we have.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Diverging views on this one thing. And Joan called up.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Already and staid, already, you know, I grew up Baptist,
and I felt like I had to leave all that
behind me because I was, you know, rejected by the
Baptist Church. And our friendship has allowed me to recover
things that I loved about that tradition and see that
as authentically a part of me.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And I just think, you know each of.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
These And then already hired someone who was non binary
to run his young Christian Leaders of Grandon Rapids.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
You got some flak for it.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
It was like, you know, this person is the most
qualified for the job, and they have the skills that
I need, so why wouldn't I. So there's there's change
and evolution amongst all of them, and the relationship is
what does it right? If you sort of if you
set out with a plan and you say, okay, it's
like making a documentary. I guess if you said out
with a plan, you're like, here's what's going to happen,
and here are the changes, and blah blah blah blah blah.
It doesn't really last, it doesn't take. But if you say, okay,
(22:02):
how do we how do we know each other? How
do we get to know each other? Now that I know,
for instance, that you know you've lived all over the country,
we can have a different conversation about different places and
it allows us to build something that endures and that
we may not know where it goes, but it'll go
someplace exciting.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I think you they are all better pastors, I hope.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
So I'm certainly a better person for having made it.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
So I'm great. That's wonderful, Nicholas, Well enjoyed everyone show
made me feel very loving. It's even more something today.
But thank you. I love this interview with you it's wonderful.
Where can people see leap leap of faith?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
So we're opening across the country on October fourth, and
really in a whole diverse set of cities to show
that indeed, it is a story that resonates everywhere, from
Boston to Houston, from Phoenix to Grand Rapids. And then
we're going to grow throughout the month of October. So
it'll be coming to a city near you in October,
and we hope you will go to the theaters. It's
a way of sort of in the season of everything
(22:57):
being so divisive, saying, you know what, I'm going to
make a different choice, and I'm going to stand up
and I'm going to be counted as someone who doesn't
believe that we can't live together. And I hope that's
the statement that we can all make because I think
most of us believe it.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We all do. I think many of us do. Many
more of us believe it than don't. Let's put it
that way. So this is perfect timing during this election
season that we're in right now, and as I said,
more divisiveness, that this is about coming together and learning
about our fellow human beings along the on the journey
with all of us that we need to learn about.
(23:33):
So everybody, thank you for making this beautiful film. Nicholas.
It's been a joy to have you on the show,
and everybody seek out leap the leap of love it
take your family.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Take your families absolutely. Thank you, Jane, this has been
such a pleasure. I'm so grateful for Thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
It has been for me to thank you. Have a
wonderful day to take care of.
Speaker 8 (23:51):
Thank you to all my wonderful loyal listeners. Your love
of film allows me to do what I do. If
you want to support me, the best way to do
that is to hit the subscribe button on the Iheartpodcast Network,
Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to
your favorite podcast, and of course on YouTube. Subscribing matters.
(24:14):
If you are feeling really compelled, I want to hear
from you. Have a burning question, comment or review, Drop
me an email at the Jamprice Show dot com.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Thank you for listening The Jandrice Show All About Movies.
The Jam Royce Show, All about Movies.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You are listening to The Jam Price Show All about Movies,
and today my guest is award winning producer director Nicholas
ma and we're going to be talking about is new
documentary entitled Leap of Faith. Welcome to the show, Nicholas.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Janet's wonderful to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It's nice to have you here.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Well, when I saw this, I said, immediately I want
to see this film, and I really want to interview
you so our audience knows what we will be talking about.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Why don't you give a brief anausis of what Leap
of Faith is all about.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
Sure, you know, I made a movie a couple of
years ago called Won't You Be My Neighbor?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
About Fred rot another brilliant, wonderful documentary you.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
And at the end of that movie, audiences would always
ask Morgan and me, where are the Fred Rogers of today?
And I didn't have an answer, and that was really
troubling to me. Made me think, gosh, do we not
have people like that? Have we've forgotten people like that?
Do we not see them?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
What's going on?
Speaker 4 (00:55):
That sort of idea rattled around the back of my mind.
And then when we were asked to look sort of
evangelicalism in the Midwest, I came across Michael Gulker and
an article in the Wall Street Journal about what he
was doing to bridge congregations across difference. I was just
fascinated in this moment where we all seem to be
dividing so dramatically, and where Christianity seems to be dividing
(01:16):
so dramatically, that somehow he was doing something that was
holding people together. So I started a conversation and he said,
you know what, I want to do something more ambitious.
I want to bring twelve pastors together from across the
theological spectrum to see if there's any way that they
can still hold together in the middle of this moment
of huge division, this national disagreement, to put it mildly
that we're in. And I said, okay, well that's interesting.
(01:38):
If they'll put it on film, then you know, let's
see what we can do. And they did, and the
result was a leap of faith, and the unexpected result
was the answer to that question. Fred Rodgers was a
Midwest minister who took his ministry to television and here
are over a dozen pastors taking their ministry to film
and trying to say, Okay, maybe there is a way
(01:59):
to see each other as lovable and to love each
other even across these differences.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
That seem so insurmountable.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
So it's, uh, it's a bit of a doozy and
about as unexpected as mister Rodgers neighborhood it as for children.
Speaker 5 (02:11):
So it really was fascinating to see how different and
diverse each one of them was in their base. I mean,
you know, and you're right, because we've become so divisive
and you know, and when you say evangelical right now.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Kind of like you I don't know. It's like when
somebody says to me they're a Christian, I'm going, what
does that mean exactly?
Speaker 6 (02:34):
And so to see that diversity within the different congregations
you brought in, because there's each one of them is
from a very different congregation, right, Some were evangelical, some work.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So let's talk about that too. How you got how
you gathered all of these pastors that come together and
to agree to come together, and yeah, that's let's just
start with that question because I have many others.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Sure, of course, we had a deal with Michael Galker,
who brought this group together, that he would put the
group together that he would thought would be most interesting.
I just have one rule, which was whatever it was,
it needed to be hard. That making it doable was
not what made something exciting for film. Making something that
felt hard and maybe even impossible was what would be
interesting to watch. And he definitely met that challenge head on,
(03:18):
bringing in very conservative pastors all the way through to
a Mary lesbian pastor who won on the patent. Most
of the pastors would neither ordain nor marry, So you
have this sort of full range of the expression of
Christianity and also that sort of subtle reminder to all
of us about how we flatten other people and how
you know, I'm in Brooklyn and when I go to
Grand Rapids, everyone had a picture of what it means
(03:39):
to be from Brooklyn there, and I had my picture
of what it meant to be a pastor in Grand Rapids.
And we're all a little bit more complicated than that.
And I think actually doing it on film was in
some ways an inducement to these pastors because they talk
about Scripture Colossians one seventeen, all things hold together in Christ.
You know, that was sort of Michael's big idea. And
the question was that I asked him, was is that true?
(04:01):
Because that's not the way it looks from where I'm sitting.
And he said, well, I'll put that challenge to these pastors.
And these pastors said, okay, let's see that's that's a
test that felt worthy to them and fascinating to me.
And I think we often sort of look very far
afield to explore subjects for documentaries. You know, we look
at what's happening in jazz trios, in Mongolia or Alaskan fishermen.
(04:24):
And it's also beautiful to look within our country at
places that often we don't really see with the same
kind of clarity and empathy, and to discover ourselves there too.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Why Grand Rapid let's talk about Grand Rapids because it's
a part of this film. Another person almost in the.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Film it truly is.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I mean, Grand Rapids is such a fascinating place. On
the one hand, you know, it's where Amway is headquartered.
It's sort of been a huge part of a sort
of a rival of Chicago early and it's in its days.
It's also the seed of a lot of modern Christianity.
A bunch of Christian denominations, in Christian publishing and Christian universe.
He's like cornerstone in Calvin. But it also feels like
so many cities. It feels we showed this film in
(05:07):
Saint Louis and everyone there was like, Saint Louis is
just like Grand Rapids.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So there's a.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Way in which it sort of provides that everyman backdrop
without ever losing focus as a fascinating place in and
of itself.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Interesting choice. Well, that's where pest istas correct, That's right.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
All of them came from Grand Rapids.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
And initially we thought about doing it somewhere else, but
Michael said, you know what, there's enough going on here
that we owe it to our community to try to
do this here. We have our own divisions, and we
can't start by solving other people's problems. We have to
look at our own.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Hey, and I thought that was very interesting that he
had been doing these with pastors from all over the
country and then you know, realizing he needed to do
it in his hometown. So that was best. And the
fact there are so many diverse churches and many many churches,
and Grand Rapids not like you just have a few,
you have a lot.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
You cannot walk a block without finding a church. In
Grand Rapids, there more churches than gas stations. It's it's uh,
it's a very well churched city. So it's a place
where Christianity is very top of mind.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
For a lot of people. So let's go.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Into the gay married pastor because a lot of the
story does evolve around her and her beliefs. And I
have to tell you, when I was watching this, I said,
I go to a church where we have a married
gay pastor that she's a co pastor with someone else,
two women. I love it, uh and a totally different perspective.
(06:30):
And I thought, oh, I really want to show this,
and they have they do movie nights, so I'm thinking,
I got of see, hope we can show this film
the church. I think this would be great to do that.
But an, yeah, and it's a non denominational church that
I go to and we're all embracing and you know,
and it's about love and you know unity, it's unity
and it's the church, you know. So uh so I think,
(06:52):
you know, this would be very good to screen with them,
and I'm sure a lot of churches, so uh, But
let's talk about let's go back back and talk about
the pastor who is gay and married and and the
reaction to her. I thought, you know, this was I
think that was the center of the film for me.
I mean it felt like that. I'm sure it was
for you true, but that was the center because people
(07:15):
had the hardest time with her being gay, and I
think that was.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Yeah, I think it's really you know, I think they
We didn't set out to make a movie about sexuality.
Michael didn't set out to make a group that focused
on sexuality. The pastors didn't set out to talk about it.
But somehow that was ineluctably where the conversation kept coming
back to, and this question of what does it mean
(07:43):
to love each other across differences?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
And I think one of.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
The encounter is so important, right, what does it mean
when we encounter someone else, whether it's someone of a
different race, as somewhat of a different religion, some of
a different sexuality.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
And that encounter is scary.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
You know already said that first day when he came
into the room, he didn't sleep the night before because
he wasn't sure how he was going to be in
that room. But encounter is also beautiful and we have
to hold those two things in our head and see
how do we allow those things to breathe into each
(08:25):
other rather than you know, argue with each other.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And I think so much of this year was.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Spent on that question of what can encounter mean? And
what I love is, you know, Joan has this extraordinary
way of reminding us of the dignity that we all
have within us, regardless of where we're coming from. And
she grants that dignity in her work, particularly with the
(08:54):
unhoused and people who have disabilities, and she brings that
to her work and to her language. And I really
love that. There's a moment where, you know, they're arguing
about the question of LGBTQ inclusion, and she says, I
(09:15):
think we're asking the wrong question.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
The question that's interesting to me is that the spirit,
and she's talking Christian terms here, is saying one thing
to you and something different to me, but it's the
same spirit. What does that mean that we're hearing different things?
And what could the spirit be trying to do and
creating that friction? And I think that's such a beautiful
idea to think that maybe these divisions that we find
in our lives are actually opportunities, opportunities that force us
(09:41):
to look at each other more deeply because we don't understand,
because we know we don't understand. We know this is unfamiliar,
and maybe there's a way of saying, huh, maybe in
that unfamiliarity we discover something about ourselves and about the world.
And I think I just love the way she points
constantly points us there, because it's something that I, you.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Know, I feel like I.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
I realize how much my life is a bubble, you know,
where I live, and how rarely I encounter certain types
of difference, and so I'm grateful for that and that
reminder that that difference is something to hunger for versus
to protect myself against.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
You think you have lots of the first people that
you're meeting.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Totally In some ways, yes, and yet in other ways.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
I would talk about this documentary with my friends and
they would say, well, it's a little bit niche, don't
you think.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
This documentary on Christianity?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, you know, over fifty
percent of the country would probably argue that it's not
terribly niche.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
But that's that's that give and take of oh, Wow.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
We find we see diversity in our community in some
ways and not in others. And it's very easy for
us to become complacent about the ways in which were similar,
and see those ways in which were similar as as moral.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Goods, as supposed to do, as ways of keeping us comfortable.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Well, yes, you know, if we believe that, you know,
we're all children of God. He made each and every
one of us. So for whatever journey we have, why
we came down on the planet at this particular time,
for whatever journey, and the experiences and the things that
we all need to learn along the way. I feel
(11:37):
blessed because I've lived all over this country. I grew
up and actually born in New Jersey, but when I
was four months old, moved to the Midwest, and so
I lived in Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois, and then back
east again and into New New Jersey, New York, Connecticut,
and then I lived in the South. I lived in Atlanta,
I lived in Salt Lake City, Mormonism. I've lived in Arizona.
(11:59):
Now I'm California. So I've transversed the country, and so
I got to see a lot of it and experience
a lot of those the diversity of this country. I mean,
it's just I feel blessed that I've had that experience
and it has enriched me and the way that I
interact with people, and I think and I think, it's
(12:21):
just I just feel, as I said, very very blessed
because I've come across all. I mean, in the South,
it's a whole new world, it's a whole new way.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
It's a totally different ecosystem. And you can you you
can't transport your own ecosystem into someone else's world and
say no, it has to go like this. You know,
we you know, we always choke as New Yorkers that
you can, always fought the New Yorker because they have
seven modifications to their sandwich when they order it Adela.
You know, it's like, yeah, but I don't want this,
and I do want this, but be really light on
(12:52):
the mayo.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And you know, Meg Ryan, We're all a part of
Meg Ryan's.
Speaker 7 (12:56):
Exactly exactly, exactly exactly I I love.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
I think what's so interesting is that the movie has
spoken so deeply to people that aren't in any way
connected with Christianity, right, who sort of see this as
a documentary in the same way you might see someone
you know who lives in a totally different place and
just sort of explore it from that vantage point and
just see how hard it is to really see somebody
(13:23):
else who you disagree with, and they immediately take it
back into their life and they're like, oh, I can
think of seven people in my life that I could
love a little bit better.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I could love a little bit better, And that's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
It's sort of to me if all of us could,
you know, find a couple of relationships in our life
that we could love a little bit.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Better, and that would be great. That would be great.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
It is beautiful to work. And that's what this film does,
you know, it opens us up to look at exactly that.
You know, where can we where can we love more?
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Love?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Can we go out of our way to help more,
you know, or try to underst stand or reach out
someone from another country and or or upbringing our culture now?
Speaker 7 (14:07):
And you know what, exactly, exactly exactly, we're so quick
to say, no, I couldn't possibly sit it at a
table with you, I couldn't possibly be part of an
organization with you.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
And and.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Sure, maybe that's true sometimes, but a lot of the
time it's not a lot of the time, you know,
we're all out there trying to say, you know, I
just want to do the right thing for my kids.
I want to do the right thing for my parents.
I want to do the right thing for my friends
and my neighbors. And you know, we may have different
views on what that is and how that works. But
if we know that that's what we're trying to do,
(14:43):
then maybe there's a little bit more space too for grace,
you know, to put it in a Christian context, and
just patience if you want to put it in a
humanist context, because with patients, with time, a lot of
things change, you know, I see that all the time. Now,
you know, it's a I think back to myself as
the teenager and my impatience with the world, and I
(15:04):
realize now I think that you know, it was actually
I think Joan who put this so beautifully, that social
justice is urgent, right, It's urgent, and social change is
very often slow. And the work is to hold those
two things in your head and not go crazy. Right,
You can't let your foot off the accelerator and say
(15:25):
we have to fix things in the world and make
the world a better place. We can't be like, oh, no,
social change is slow, so we can just lay back.
But we also can't say be disappointed every day that
we haven't made more progress, because you know, it's the long,
slow boring of hardwood that is what this is. And
you know, we wake up every day and so how
can I make the world a little bit better today
(15:46):
than it was yesterday? And then how can I go
to keep and wake up the next morning and do
it again?
Speaker 5 (15:50):
You know?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
And I think if we can, if we all see
that as the accomplishment that it is, I think it's
tremendous what we can achieve. I think it's tremendous.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
That's beautiful, beautiful, and you're right, just do it every day,
do it a little bit better, get it right.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Now.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
We're just garage with so much negativity and so device,
so much divisiveness, and this is where we need to
start to learn to come together. And that's what this
film really demonstrates so beautifully, help people different beliefs that
the space can come together and and begin to understand
each other the way that they hadn't before. You know,
(16:30):
it really has been what is the response? Just let
me do a quick break here, Ben if you're just
tuning in. I did the dam fresh all about movies today.
My guess is award winning producer director Nicholas ma and
we were talking about a new documentary entitled Sleep of Faith.
So what what lesson did you learn the most when
(16:50):
you filmed this? When you were filming it, before you
went in, did you have an idea that of one thing?
And then did it shift and change while you were
filming this?
Speaker 4 (17:00):
It was like trying to grab hold of a snake,
you know. It's like it was always moving in a
different direction. And every time I thought I was going
to go left, it went right, and vice versa. And
I but that's the beauty of verite documentaries. You have
to lean into it and let the unexpected. You know,
if it's not unexpected to me, it's not going to
(17:21):
feel unexpected to a viewer. And this documentary just takes
these twists and turns into Michael's private life, into the
strange needs of these pastors and concerns, and you know,
into an answer at the end that is not so
much of an answer as a question and as a hope.
And I just think there's something so wonderful about that.
(17:42):
And I think it taught me to hold whatever it
is loosely. I'm not going to change my beliefs. I'm
pretty confident in that, but I'm going to hold them
a little more loosely because there's space that I didn't
know as possible. And you know, I have a six
month old daughter, and I would leave my six month
old daughter with any of these pastors, and that is,
(18:03):
you know, that is the highest side of trust that
I can think of. And I don't know if I
would have thought that day one walking and I don't
know if I would have thought that four months into
the process, eight months into the process, but you know,
and now it's been a number of years and what's
evolved and the relationships that evolved have continued to surprise
and nourish me. So you know, I jokingly refer to
(18:24):
them as my pastors.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
You know, it's like, oh, I.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Gotta go see my pastors. And you know, most people
don't have, you know, more than a dozen pastors. But uh,
but I guess and I certainly didn't expect to, but
I guess I do, and I'm grateful for it.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
So well do you So you do keep in touch
with them very much?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So I was just a welo this morning.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, yeah, So how is that was? How long ago
did you finish filming this?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
We finished filming in h at the end of twenty
twenty three, but we really it finished earlier than that.
We just had pickups that we were doing. But I
I stay in touch with them all the time, you know.
I was just emailing with Andrew Vanover today, one of
the more conservative pastors, and he had asked me on
(19:10):
day one how he could trust me that I wasn't
going to turn it into reality television, you know, And
I said, well, if you don't know wine in people's faces,
you know, there's.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Not much I can do.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
So I sent him a note today because you know,
the movie's coming out, and I said, just so you know,
we've changed the title to the Real Pastors of Grand Rapids,
and I hope you don't mind doesn't.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Editing, And you know, he wrote back with a with
a big laugh.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
So no. I mean, it's a lot of trust that
it gets built up, and a lot of vulnerability that's
required to sort of say these things that you're worried
makes you unlovable, you know, like being honest about her
wife and saying you know, I don't want to hide
in the closet. I want to be the pastor that
I am. And wife puts it beautifully, she's you know,
I want to know that, you know, I can be
a lesbian and I can love Jesus because I do.
(19:56):
You know, there's existence proof of these things, and they're is.
I think for each of these pastors the courage to
say this is how I interpret my faith and I
want to love you better. I'm like, khudos to you.
That's Those are the journeys that are hard to take.
Those are the journeys that are hard to take.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Very definitely, very differently. Alpha still in touch with them.
Did they still all get together and how how things
changed for them since they fell.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
It's kind of amazing they get together and in ways
that I certainly would never have expected. Already invited Molly
Already is one of the most conservative pastors, and Mollie's
one of the most liberal to come to his you know,
very conservative believe in our City day, which includes a
prayer over the US Constitution. And she was a little
bit you know, overwhelmed at first, but then she came
(20:44):
back the next day and has been reading about the
constitution ever since. She invited James, who's from the historically
Black church, to come to the North End Pastors group,
which had never had a member of historically black churches
part of it, and he's become one of the most
active members and it's changed him.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
It's changed that group.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
He watched the film and then realized that he and
Joan hadn't spent the time together that he wanted to,
and he said, Joan, how can we work together more often?
I really, I see you know so much of what
we're doing in peril, even if we have.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Diverging views on this one thing. And Joan called up.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Already and staid, already, you know, I grew up Baptist,
and I felt like I had to leave all that
behind me because I was, you know, rejected by the
Baptist Church. And our friendship has allowed me to recover
things that I loved about that tradition and see that
as authentically a part of me.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And I just think, you know each of.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
These And then already hired someone who was non binary
to run his young Christian Leaders of Grandon Rapids.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
You got some flak for it.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
It was like, you know, this person is the most
qualified for the job, and they have the skills that
I need, so why wouldn't I. So there's there's change
and evolution amongst all of them, and the relationship is
what does it right? If you sort of if you
set out with a plan and you say, okay, it's
like making a documentary. I guess if you said out
with a plan, you're like, here's what's going to happen,
and here are the changes, and blah blah blah blah blah.
It doesn't really last, it doesn't take. But if you say, okay,
(22:02):
how do we how do we know each other? How
do we get to know each other? Now that I know,
for instance, that you know you've lived all over the country,
we can have a different conversation about different places and
it allows us to build something that endures and that
we may not know where it goes, but it'll go
someplace exciting.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I think you they are all better pastors, I hope.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
So I'm certainly a better person for having made it.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
So I'm great. That's wonderful, Nicholas, Well enjoyed everyone show
made me feel very loving. It's even more something today.
But thank you. I love this interview with you it's wonderful.
Where can people see leap leap of faith?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
So we're opening across the country on October fourth, and
really in a whole diverse set of cities to show
that indeed, it is a story that resonates everywhere, from
Boston to Houston, from Phoenix to Grand Rapids. And then
we're going to grow throughout the month of October. So
it'll be coming to a city near you in October,
and we hope you will go to the theaters. It's
a way of sort of in the season of everything
(22:57):
being so divisive, saying, you know what, I'm going to
make a different choice, and I'm going to stand up
and I'm going to be counted as someone who doesn't
believe that we can't live together. And I hope that's
the statement that we can all make because I think
most of us believe it.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We all do. I think many of us do. Many
more of us believe it than don't. Let's put it
that way. So this is perfect timing during this election
season that we're in right now, and as I said,
more divisiveness, that this is about coming together and learning
about our fellow human beings along the on the journey
with all of us that we need to learn about.
(23:33):
So everybody, thank you for making this beautiful film. Nicholas.
It's been a joy to have you on the show,
and everybody seek out leap the leap of love it
take your family.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Take your families absolutely. Thank you, Jane, this has been
such a pleasure. I'm so grateful for Thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
It has been for me to thank you. Have a
wonderful day to take care of.
Speaker 8 (23:51):
Thank you to all my wonderful loyal listeners. Your love
of film allows me to do what I do. If
you want to support me, the best way to do
that is to hit the subscribe button on the Iheartpodcast Network,
Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to
your favorite podcast, and of course on YouTube. Subscribing matters.
(24:14):
If you are feeling really compelled, I want to hear
from you. Have a burning question, comment or review, Drop
me an email at the Jamprice Show dot com.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Thank you for listening The Jandrice Show All About Movies.
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