November 27, 2024 • 24 mins
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Encore! Award-winning director and producer Vanessa Hope discusses her award-winning documentary, "Invisible Nation,"
With unprecedented access to Taiwan's sitting head of state, director Vanessa Hope investigates the election and tenure of Tsai Ing-wen, the first female president of Taiwan. Thorough, incisive, and bristling with tension, Invisible Nation is a living account of Tsai's tightrope walk as she balances the hopes and dreams of her nation between the colossal geopolitical forces of the U.S. and China. Hope's observational style captures Tsai at work in her country's vibrant democracy at home while seeking full international recognition of Taiwan's right to exist. At a time when Russia's invasion of Ukraine has demonstrated the ever-present threat of authoritarian aggression, Invisible Nation brings punctual focus to the struggle of Taiwan as it fights for autonomy and freedom from fear.
Encore! Award-winning director and producer Vanessa Hope discusses her award-winning documentary, "Invisible Nation,"
With unprecedented access to Taiwan's sitting head of state, director Vanessa Hope investigates the election and tenure of Tsai Ing-wen, the first female president of Taiwan. Thorough, incisive, and bristling with tension, Invisible Nation is a living account of Tsai's tightrope walk as she balances the hopes and dreams of her nation between the colossal geopolitical forces of the U.S. and China. Hope's observational style captures Tsai at work in her country's vibrant democracy at home while seeking full international recognition of Taiwan's right to exist. At a time when Russia's invasion of Ukraine has demonstrated the ever-present threat of authoritarian aggression, Invisible Nation brings punctual focus to the struggle of Taiwan as it fights for autonomy and freedom from fear.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the Jen Wright Show, All about Movies. You are
listening to the Jam Price Show All about Movies, and
today my guest is award winning producer director Vanessa Hope,
and we're going to be talking about a very timely
valuable documentary that she has directed and produced, and that
(00:20):
documentary is Invisible Nation. Welcome to the show, Vanessa.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you so much. Jen. I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I'm happy to have you here. This is, as I said,
very timely invaluable. So our listeners know what this film
is about. Why don't you give a brief synopsis of
what Invisible Nation is all about.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Invisible Nation tells the story of Taiwan during their first
female president, Sayengwen's presidency, and how Taiwan became a democracy
transitioning out of a dictatorship, and why they matter so
much today, especially in this world, and how much they're
under threat from China, and we should know their story
(01:01):
so that they don't remain invisible, so that they can't
be invaded without the international community standing up and trying
to stop it.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Beautiful, You're right, you've done other films around in China
and Asia and other films in the past, so talk
a little bit about what your connection is and why
you feel so strongly about that part of the world,
and petiarly Taiwan.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
My connection to Taiwan really developed strongly the year that
I lived there nineteen ninety five ninety six as a student,
was my first time there, and it was their first
direct presidential elections, so it was the year they really
became a democracy, and China was firing missiles at US
on the island, and I really was baffled and didn't
(01:49):
understand what was going on and felt I needed to.
So that changed my life that year, and I then
went to work in foreign policy at the Council on
Foreign realis especially to learn what was the US fingerprints
on the situation, and then I stuck with it because
the stories were so fascinating of international relations and diplomacy.
(02:12):
So I made a film during President Obama's presidency about
the US China relationship that only touched on Taiwan a
little bit in terms of how the US sells arms
to Taiwan and that upsets China. So I knew after
I finished that film, which came out really twenty sixteen,
twenty fifteen, that Taiwan deserved its own story and they
(02:34):
might elect their first female president. So in January twenty sixteen,
I joined a delegation to monitor that their elections were
free and fair so I could be there and work
with a local crew and film. And we were in
the crowd when Presidents High won for the first time,
and it was so exciting and historic and powerful, and
(02:56):
I just thought, Wow, I mean to follow a first
female president of a democratic progressive party, it would be
really unprecedented and meaningful, an especially significant window into Taiwan's story.
And then we got started, and I've learned a ton
since then.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So you actually started filming this what eight years ago?
Over eight years ago? Run?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
And so did you know at that time it was
going to take that many years for it to find contruition?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No, could not have. Maybe I should have anticipated the timeframe,
because one thing I learned on the first film was
that when you have a politician in a film. The
first film, it was Obama's US Ambassador to China, John Huntsman,
chose to run for president against Obama in twenty twelve,
which might have been why Obama was sending him to
(03:47):
China in the first place, to stop him running but
it didn't stop him, and there was pressure to try
to come out before his run and or impact his run.
And if you're not making a campaign film, which I
was never setting up to do. This film with President
Sai is the second American documentary ever with a sitting
head of state. So when you have a sitting head
(04:08):
of state, you should know that they might run for
a second term and you might be in this for
more than one term of office, because it's a big
deal to have that kind of access and to follow
those developments over time. And I was all in committed.
So once President Zai decided to run again in twenty twenty,
(04:30):
we then realized it was going to be a full
two term kind of story.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And so how long did you stay in Taiwan when
you were filming? Each time?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Each time varied and we got the green light, which
was April of twenty seventeen, after we had written a proposal,
submitted it to President SI's office and waited the required
six months. They basically said come back in two weeks,
and they opened her schedule in May for five weeks
(04:59):
into the beginning of June, and nobody knew was that,
you know how much we would have whether that would
be a movie, what else would come. But every year
I would go back at a different time of year
for a different length of time. Sometimes it was two weeks,
sometimes it was another month. And then in during COVID
twenty twenty one, no one could go. Everything was restricted.
(05:21):
And the longest period I spent was from July of
twenty twenty two through February of twenty twenty three. And
that was excellent because our edit team, who are largely
Powonese and certainly Taiwan base, were there and they had
a screening room. So I was still shooting, but we
were editing in Taipei, and we were screening for local
(05:42):
people of all different backgrounds and kind of getting to
know the community in a new way. That felt really
important for the story.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Oh it really is. You've lead this out so beautifully,
you really have. It just follows. It's very very fascinating,
but you've laid it out in a very wonderful way,
so we get the history of time. And that's really
what's very important, because I don't know how many Americans
are really that familiar with Taiwan and how important it is,
and this film must be seen. It really is such
(06:11):
an important film and it's timely right now with everything
that's going on in the world. So let's talk about
that a little bit. And how you know here it
is you started this in twenty seventeen or twenty sixteen,
and now here we are in twenty twenty four and
the significance of this film is more important now than
perhaps when you first started it.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yes, absolutely true, And to your first point, I'm now
promoting the film because we're coming out in theaters at
the Quad in New York Friday night and for a week.
It's very exciting. Yes, I'm telling people I meet in
New York about the film and often. I mean today,
I said, I made this film about Taiwan, and this
woman said, oh, I just bought some bags from there,
(06:52):
and she showed me a picture and then she said,
you said Thailand, right, And I was like, no, but
don't worry because everyone makes that mistake. Taiwan is still
confused with Thailand, and no one should feel embarrassed or
ashamed about that. It is deliberate attempt on the part
of China to obscure Taiwan's true story so that they
(07:13):
can claim it as their own and say it's a
part of China, so people don't even realize it's a
country to tell a story about, and that is part
of why the history is so critical, because it's Taiwan's history.
And what I learned starting in twenty sixteen, when the
screens behind President's High were blaring we are Taiwanese, was
(07:34):
how important the sense of Taiwanese identity is to people
who live there. And it really came about through their
process of democratization, which began in full in nineteen ninety six,
the other major year I was there. So today I
would say what happened. My personal interest began with a
first female president of a democratic progressive party? What does
(07:56):
that look like? And unfortunately I couldn't get that many
people interested in the subject in that way. I knew
the World War Three stakes of the story from nineteen
ninety five ninety six, and then working in foreign policy,
I didn't want to overemphasize that and instead to treat
that delicately and give Taiwan and the people of Taiwan
more of a voice and recognition for all of their
(08:18):
huge accomplishments in democracy, their advancements even under President's s I,
especially with same sex marriage, transitional justice. But what it
took globally was unfortunately Russia's invasion of Ukraine that to
really put a spotlight on Taiwan and really draw international attention,
because now people are seeing the closeness between Putin and
(08:39):
Shi Jimping, and they're seeing how easy it is for
a dictator to make a decision overnight and boom, they're
invading a country and calling it their own, and they
have ambitions that are far beyond their own territory, claiming
other people and other territory and ignoring facts and reality
on the ground, and ignoring the wishes of people who
don't want to be invaded. And so I think what's
(09:01):
unique about this story at this time is we have
a window of opportunity to wake the world up to
prevent another invasion from happening. You have hot wars in
Ukraine and in Israel Gaza. No one wants any more bloodshed.
Everyone understands that military is not offering the solutions people seek.
(09:22):
It's still going to require diplomacy in those war zones,
and now in Taiwan before it becomes a war zone.
These are people everyone everywhere deserves self determination, deserves an
equal status on the world stage, and I think there's
a growing awareness of that.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yes, I think, well this film is certainly going to
shine a light on that for sure, Vanessa, And that's
what I do. Hope you get a lot more exposure
with this film in this interview, we'll do that too
for you. But the way you've laid it out towards
the end, it's just really scary, the sense of how
you plotted through. They take Taiwan, then they're going to
(09:59):
go to Japan and then down to the philip I
mean that was fascinating that, you know, China could just
go keep invading all of these countries, and yet what's
to stop them, to be honest with.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
You, Yeah, So that person in the film, Matthew Pottinger,
who makes this point that Taiwan is kind of a
lynchpin for what is known as the First Island chain
of democracies that are right around China, is critical because
China's ambitions to turn Taiwan into a military base so
(10:31):
it can project hower into the Pacific don't end with Taiwan,
and whether China is direct and clear about it or not,
their actions are clear, their intentions are as Pottinger says
in reading in Chinese their military literature, they want Japan
to be destabilized, and the Philippines and Australia and South Korea.
(10:56):
They don't like having democracies on their border. They do
have an authoritarian system of government that's verging on totalitarian,
and that is the way they prefer the countries around
them to govern themselves. So it's frontline that Taiwan is
at and they have been on the front lines of
this kind of authoritarian bullying for decades and it's kind
(11:20):
of horrific to think that they've lived with this spear
and it should be possible. They show so much resilience
in Taiwan and such willingness to stand up and fight
for what they have gained themselves in their democracy, and
I think all the democracies of the world should be
standing together with them and saying we support you. You
(11:40):
can see the dictatorships, the dictators of the world putin
Shee Jimping or Von and on and on. They're all
supporting each other. But the democracies should be supporting each
other and showing we won't back down.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I agree, But in this film you also point out
how they have not been recognized as their own country.
I mean that talk a little bit about that, because
that was sort of surprising.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, it's incredibly surprising, and it's why we title the
film Invisible Nation because, for example, in the Paris Olympics
coming up in end of July, Taiwan is participating under
the name Chinese Taipei, which is ridiculous. There is no
Taipei is a city and it's Taiwan's city. It's not
Chinese Taipei. And once upon a time when Taiwan was
(12:26):
a founding member as the Republic of China under Chan
Kai Chek in the United Nations, they were diplomatically recognized
by many countries and they participated in the Olympics as Taiwan.
So that story is in the film to point out
that there's no reason it has to be this way.
Taiwan can return to being known as Taiwan when they
(12:47):
participate in the Olympics, and Taiwan, under their democratic leadership,
should be in the United Nations. It's absurd that China
is manipulating something called Yuan Resolution to seven eight, which
only applies to the China seat in the United Nations
to say, oh no, Taiwan can't be in the United
Nations because it's part of US, or they manipulate their
(13:10):
language around the One China principle, and the US obfuscates
our position by saying in our One China policy that
we hear what you say, Beijing, but we don't agree
with it. So we don't officially diplomatically recognize Taiwan. None
of the major countries do, but we unofficially do, and
the smaller countries that do have official diplomatic relations with
(13:33):
Taiwan ensure that it does maintain a country status. It
is de facto independent and it is a country. But
that story needs to be told now before it's too late,
because China's strategy in keeping Taiwan invisible is to be
able to say keep out to every other country in
the world. These are our internal affairs, no foreign interference.
(13:54):
Taiwan is ours to do with as we please. If
we want to invade it, blockade it, or take it over,
we will, and you just stay out. And that's China's message.
So we've got to know the truth and stand up
for it.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It is scary. It is scary that they also who
didn't recognize them either. I mean all of these. Yeah,
it's just amazing. Do you I know, you just have
President Biden briefly in this and he's asked the question,
would we support Taiwan if it was invaded? And he
says yes. Do you know what the Biden policy is
(14:27):
towards Taiwan right now?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
I think that relations between the United States and Taiwan
have been growing closer and stronger under President size terms
in office, and now I think with President Lai that
will continue. The fact that Biden said four times we
will defend Taiwan, which is more clear than what had
been our policy of strategic ambiguity, which was to not
(14:51):
say if we will come to Taiwan's defense in order
to stop Taiwan from provoking a war with China. But
what's really clear is that it's China provoking the West
and provoking Taiwan and changing the status quo and encircling
them with military fighter jets and all the rest, and
Taiwan is just seeking to defend itself. The United States
(15:13):
knows it, and I think Biden intends for Americans to
be there, but I think the call is also to
the international community, because the US can't defend Taiwan alone,
and it can't get there faster than two weeks. So
people in Taiwan need to be able to defend themselves,
and people in the Asia Pacific countries need to be
able to come to Taiwan's defense too and show that
(15:35):
we will.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And you show that in the film that they're doing maneuvers,
military maneuvers with President Zai there and she said, this
is not that we're declaring more on China, but we
want to be prepared in case we are invaded. And
of course they need to do that because you don't
know at any minute what may happen exactly. Well, let's
talk about the phone call that then President Trump made
(15:59):
to Taiwan and that what ensued after that, because I
thought that was also fascinating.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yes, that was I believe congratulatory phone call from President's
side to President Trump that he accepted and therefore became
the first time in forty years that the leader of
Taiwan and of the United States had that kind of interaction.
(16:26):
So it blew up into this diplomatic controversy. And whether
Trump understood the meaning and significance of it, I don't know.
I think he did have people on his team who
did know and wanted him to take the call, and
in a very childish way, of course, he tweeted she
called me all cats to kind of emphasize that it
(16:47):
wasn't his doing. I am concerned that he is still
around and that should he get anywhere near the presidency again,
not only Taiwan, but all of us will be in
terrible peril.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yes, he compared.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Taiwan to the tip of his pen and China to
the Oval office desk famously, and I think that's how
he calculated what matters and what doesn't. He likes things
large and gold, and he's greedy, and don't get me started.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
That's a whole other conversation that we can have. Oh
my goodness, will then how would others talk about who
went over to China to smooth things out after that?
Because that was you know, I didn't even know he
was still going and doing those kinds of things and
why and who sent him? But go on, let's talk.
(17:39):
I'll let you talk. Say who it is.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I think that Kissinger tends to deputize himself, and I
think he went in his capacity as CEO of Kissinger Associates.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Let's just tell himbody it was. It was Henry Kissinger
who at ninety three flew over to China to smooth
out diplomatic relationship with China after that infamous phone call
to come on exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
And so you have a very frustrated, very accomplished senior
diplomat from the United States, Bill Stanton, William Stanton, who's
been in Taiwan for decades and he's been a professor,
and he's been head of the American Institute in Taiwan,
which is a de facto embassy for the United States there,
(18:27):
who just says that it's unfortunate how little the United
States has learned over time. And I think that Kissinger,
who really was like a stand in for American foreign
policy the entire time he was alive, is part of
the problem because he was never held accountable for any
(18:50):
of his war crimes. There were no consequences. He was
a huge self promoter, and people felt that they had
to bound down to him. He never visited Taiwan, and
he never cared to have American foreign policy updated to
reflect reality. He's famous for the term real politique, but
(19:11):
there's nothing real about his politics. He never understood the
importance of women. He never understood the importance of countries
being treated equally and fairly on the world stage, and
he made a huge mistake in many different countries and
caused cost many lives and has done a lot of
(19:31):
damage that I think the United States can undo, but
has to show it will undo by prioritizing democracy in
a real way, by putting our values forward and not
our economic interests.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Right, everything's always about money. Just follow the money trail, seriously. Yes,
it's the truth. I mean it's it's you know, goes
back to all the president's men. Just follow the money,
and you know, it's We've had conversations, many conversations with
friends about that and saying, you know, we don't have
any really word, I mean saying what's going on in
(20:04):
our world because it's all about the you know, the
almighty dollar that's controlling every absolutely everything. So if Taiwan
was important to us as far as money, which it is,
you know in many ways, then it will have more
importance to us than if it didn't. So Nancy Pelosi
went over. I think that was pretty amazing too, So
(20:26):
talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Well, Nancy Pelosi is brave and she's a long time
supporter of human rights and democracy and she's that was
the parrot chiming in.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
He likes Nancy.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Pelosi has famously visited Beijing and Tianneman Square after the
June fourth crackdown. Everyone knows that she cares about and
values democracy and human rights. So for her to stand
up to Beige and fly to Taiwan when she did
and show support for President's Hi and their democracy was
(21:08):
meaningful and it wasn't her choice. She was invited by
President's Zai and she I think did a tour of
Asia at that time, kind of reaffirming the closeness of
our relations with all those countries in the Asia Pacific,
which is very important to reinforce that community.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yes, it is where have you shown this? Have you
shown it to? I mean, I know you have the
premiere in New York at the Quad, so anyone who's
listening please go get tickets to that. But have you
shown this to any people in the government? Have you
shown it to Nancy Pelosi? Let's say, have you shown
it to other people that could maybe make a difference.
(21:50):
Let's put it that way, because this film is it's
a film that not only is it just an amazing documentary,
but it is one that could, you know, change and
shift things, and that's why it's so important and it's
so important that it be seen.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Thank you so much for saying that. We have been
feeling that impact already. I'll just quickly tell you before
I talk about politicians, the American Bar Association International Law
Section just invited us to screen the film. They're the
establishment lawyers in the US but internationally, and they're re
(22:26):
emphasizing that under international law, Taiwan is a country and
arguing that Taiwan deserves to be represented as Taiwan and
international organizations and it should be readmitted to the UN
and all of that. So that's their way. When we
were in Berlin, we screened at the Reichstag in the
(22:46):
Parliament building for all of these German parliamentarians and that
was incredible, along with the de facto Taiwan ambassador to Germany.
All of those embassies are very supportive, and we're looking
at potential screenings for the UK Parliament, for the US Congress,
for the EU Parliament, and we'll see who else may
(23:09):
invite us. But when we played in DC with the
Council on Foreign Relations in Johns Hopkins Bloomberg Center, which
is a beautiful, beautiful screening room. We had Congressman Ted
Leo and the audience. Some people pronounce it Ted Lou,
but he's from California. He's great. And I believe Adam
(23:30):
Schiff also endorses the film, and we're hoping Pelosi will
watch it soon. She has a link, so we'll see great.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I wish unfortunately our time is up. I could continue
to talk to you more about this, and I wish
you nothing but great success and hopefully now the people
who really need to see it see it. So I
wish you much success, so much, and thank you. Thank
you Vanessa, lovely meeting ye to all my wonderful loyal listeners.
Your love of film allows me to do what I do.
(24:00):
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(24:22):
drop me an email at the Jamprice Show dot com.
Thank you for listening The Jam Price Show all about movies,
Of the Jen Wright Show, All about Movies. You are
listening to the Jam Price Show All about Movies, and
today my guest is award winning producer director Vanessa Hope,
and we're going to be talking about a very timely
valuable documentary that she has directed and produced, and that
(00:20):
documentary is Invisible Nation. Welcome to the show, Vanessa.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you so much. Jen. I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I'm happy to have you here. This is, as I said,
very timely invaluable. So our listeners know what this film
is about. Why don't you give a brief synopsis of
what Invisible Nation is all about.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Invisible Nation tells the story of Taiwan during their first
female president, Sayengwen's presidency, and how Taiwan became a democracy
transitioning out of a dictatorship, and why they matter so
much today, especially in this world, and how much they're
under threat from China, and we should know their story
(01:01):
so that they don't remain invisible, so that they can't
be invaded without the international community standing up and trying
to stop it.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Beautiful, You're right, you've done other films around in China
and Asia and other films in the past, so talk
a little bit about what your connection is and why
you feel so strongly about that part of the world,
and petiarly Taiwan.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
My connection to Taiwan really developed strongly the year that
I lived there nineteen ninety five ninety six as a student,
was my first time there, and it was their first
direct presidential elections, so it was the year they really
became a democracy, and China was firing missiles at US
on the island, and I really was baffled and didn't
(01:49):
understand what was going on and felt I needed to.
So that changed my life that year, and I then
went to work in foreign policy at the Council on
Foreign realis especially to learn what was the US fingerprints
on the situation, and then I stuck with it because
the stories were so fascinating of international relations and diplomacy.
(02:12):
So I made a film during President Obama's presidency about
the US China relationship that only touched on Taiwan a
little bit in terms of how the US sells arms
to Taiwan and that upsets China. So I knew after
I finished that film, which came out really twenty sixteen,
twenty fifteen, that Taiwan deserved its own story and they
(02:34):
might elect their first female president. So in January twenty sixteen,
I joined a delegation to monitor that their elections were
free and fair so I could be there and work
with a local crew and film. And we were in
the crowd when Presidents High won for the first time,
and it was so exciting and historic and powerful, and
(02:56):
I just thought, Wow, I mean to follow a first
female president of a democratic progressive party, it would be
really unprecedented and meaningful, an especially significant window into Taiwan's story.
And then we got started, and I've learned a ton
since then.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So you actually started filming this what eight years ago?
Over eight years ago? Run?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
And so did you know at that time it was
going to take that many years for it to find contruition?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No, could not have. Maybe I should have anticipated the timeframe,
because one thing I learned on the first film was
that when you have a politician in a film. The
first film, it was Obama's US Ambassador to China, John Huntsman,
chose to run for president against Obama in twenty twelve,
which might have been why Obama was sending him to
(03:47):
China in the first place, to stop him running but
it didn't stop him, and there was pressure to try
to come out before his run and or impact his run.
And if you're not making a campaign film, which I
was never setting up to do. This film with President
Sai is the second American documentary ever with a sitting
head of state. So when you have a sitting head
(04:08):
of state, you should know that they might run for
a second term and you might be in this for
more than one term of office, because it's a big
deal to have that kind of access and to follow
those developments over time. And I was all in committed.
So once President Zai decided to run again in twenty twenty,
(04:30):
we then realized it was going to be a full
two term kind of story.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And so how long did you stay in Taiwan when
you were filming? Each time?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Each time varied and we got the green light, which
was April of twenty seventeen, after we had written a proposal,
submitted it to President SI's office and waited the required
six months. They basically said come back in two weeks,
and they opened her schedule in May for five weeks
(04:59):
into the beginning of June, and nobody knew was that,
you know how much we would have whether that would
be a movie, what else would come. But every year
I would go back at a different time of year
for a different length of time. Sometimes it was two weeks,
sometimes it was another month. And then in during COVID
twenty twenty one, no one could go. Everything was restricted.
(05:21):
And the longest period I spent was from July of
twenty twenty two through February of twenty twenty three. And
that was excellent because our edit team, who are largely
Powonese and certainly Taiwan base, were there and they had
a screening room. So I was still shooting, but we
were editing in Taipei, and we were screening for local
(05:42):
people of all different backgrounds and kind of getting to
know the community in a new way. That felt really
important for the story.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Oh it really is. You've lead this out so beautifully,
you really have. It just follows. It's very very fascinating,
but you've laid it out in a very wonderful way,
so we get the history of time. And that's really
what's very important, because I don't know how many Americans
are really that familiar with Taiwan and how important it is,
and this film must be seen. It really is such
(06:11):
an important film and it's timely right now with everything
that's going on in the world. So let's talk about
that a little bit. And how you know here it
is you started this in twenty seventeen or twenty sixteen,
and now here we are in twenty twenty four and
the significance of this film is more important now than
perhaps when you first started it.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yes, absolutely true, And to your first point, I'm now
promoting the film because we're coming out in theaters at
the Quad in New York Friday night and for a week.
It's very exciting. Yes, I'm telling people I meet in
New York about the film and often. I mean today,
I said, I made this film about Taiwan, and this
woman said, oh, I just bought some bags from there,
(06:52):
and she showed me a picture and then she said,
you said Thailand, right, And I was like, no, but
don't worry because everyone makes that mistake. Taiwan is still
confused with Thailand, and no one should feel embarrassed or
ashamed about that. It is deliberate attempt on the part
of China to obscure Taiwan's true story so that they
(07:13):
can claim it as their own and say it's a
part of China, so people don't even realize it's a
country to tell a story about, and that is part
of why the history is so critical, because it's Taiwan's history.
And what I learned starting in twenty sixteen, when the
screens behind President's High were blaring we are Taiwanese, was
(07:34):
how important the sense of Taiwanese identity is to people
who live there. And it really came about through their
process of democratization, which began in full in nineteen ninety six,
the other major year I was there. So today I
would say what happened. My personal interest began with a
first female president of a democratic progressive party? What does
(07:56):
that look like? And unfortunately I couldn't get that many
people interested in the subject in that way. I knew
the World War Three stakes of the story from nineteen
ninety five ninety six, and then working in foreign policy,
I didn't want to overemphasize that and instead to treat
that delicately and give Taiwan and the people of Taiwan
more of a voice and recognition for all of their
(08:18):
huge accomplishments in democracy, their advancements even under President's s I,
especially with same sex marriage, transitional justice. But what it
took globally was unfortunately Russia's invasion of Ukraine that to
really put a spotlight on Taiwan and really draw international attention,
because now people are seeing the closeness between Putin and
(08:39):
Shi Jimping, and they're seeing how easy it is for
a dictator to make a decision overnight and boom, they're
invading a country and calling it their own, and they
have ambitions that are far beyond their own territory, claiming
other people and other territory and ignoring facts and reality
on the ground, and ignoring the wishes of people who
don't want to be invaded. And so I think what's
(09:01):
unique about this story at this time is we have
a window of opportunity to wake the world up to
prevent another invasion from happening. You have hot wars in
Ukraine and in Israel Gaza. No one wants any more bloodshed.
Everyone understands that military is not offering the solutions people seek.
(09:22):
It's still going to require diplomacy in those war zones,
and now in Taiwan before it becomes a war zone.
These are people everyone everywhere deserves self determination, deserves an
equal status on the world stage, and I think there's
a growing awareness of that.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yes, I think, well this film is certainly going to
shine a light on that for sure, Vanessa, And that's
what I do. Hope you get a lot more exposure
with this film in this interview, we'll do that too
for you. But the way you've laid it out towards
the end, it's just really scary, the sense of how
you plotted through. They take Taiwan, then they're going to
(09:59):
go to Japan and then down to the philip I
mean that was fascinating that, you know, China could just
go keep invading all of these countries, and yet what's
to stop them, to be honest with.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
You, Yeah, So that person in the film, Matthew Pottinger,
who makes this point that Taiwan is kind of a
lynchpin for what is known as the First Island chain
of democracies that are right around China, is critical because
China's ambitions to turn Taiwan into a military base so
(10:31):
it can project hower into the Pacific don't end with Taiwan,
and whether China is direct and clear about it or not,
their actions are clear, their intentions are as Pottinger says
in reading in Chinese their military literature, they want Japan
to be destabilized, and the Philippines and Australia and South Korea.
(10:56):
They don't like having democracies on their border. They do
have an authoritarian system of government that's verging on totalitarian,
and that is the way they prefer the countries around
them to govern themselves. So it's frontline that Taiwan is
at and they have been on the front lines of
this kind of authoritarian bullying for decades and it's kind
(11:20):
of horrific to think that they've lived with this spear
and it should be possible. They show so much resilience
in Taiwan and such willingness to stand up and fight
for what they have gained themselves in their democracy, and
I think all the democracies of the world should be
standing together with them and saying we support you. You
(11:40):
can see the dictatorships, the dictators of the world putin
Shee Jimping or Von and on and on. They're all
supporting each other. But the democracies should be supporting each
other and showing we won't back down.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I agree, But in this film you also point out
how they have not been recognized as their own country.
I mean that talk a little bit about that, because
that was sort of surprising.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, it's incredibly surprising, and it's why we title the
film Invisible Nation because, for example, in the Paris Olympics
coming up in end of July, Taiwan is participating under
the name Chinese Taipei, which is ridiculous. There is no
Taipei is a city and it's Taiwan's city. It's not
Chinese Taipei. And once upon a time when Taiwan was
(12:26):
a founding member as the Republic of China under Chan
Kai Chek in the United Nations, they were diplomatically recognized
by many countries and they participated in the Olympics as Taiwan.
So that story is in the film to point out
that there's no reason it has to be this way.
Taiwan can return to being known as Taiwan when they
(12:47):
participate in the Olympics, and Taiwan, under their democratic leadership,
should be in the United Nations. It's absurd that China
is manipulating something called Yuan Resolution to seven eight, which
only applies to the China seat in the United Nations
to say, oh no, Taiwan can't be in the United
Nations because it's part of US, or they manipulate their
(13:10):
language around the One China principle, and the US obfuscates
our position by saying in our One China policy that
we hear what you say, Beijing, but we don't agree
with it. So we don't officially diplomatically recognize Taiwan. None
of the major countries do, but we unofficially do, and
the smaller countries that do have official diplomatic relations with
(13:33):
Taiwan ensure that it does maintain a country status. It
is de facto independent and it is a country. But
that story needs to be told now before it's too late,
because China's strategy in keeping Taiwan invisible is to be
able to say keep out to every other country in
the world. These are our internal affairs, no foreign interference.
(13:54):
Taiwan is ours to do with as we please. If
we want to invade it, blockade it, or take it over,
we will, and you just stay out. And that's China's message.
So we've got to know the truth and stand up
for it.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It is scary. It is scary that they also who
didn't recognize them either. I mean all of these. Yeah,
it's just amazing. Do you I know, you just have
President Biden briefly in this and he's asked the question,
would we support Taiwan if it was invaded? And he
says yes. Do you know what the Biden policy is
(14:27):
towards Taiwan right now?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
I think that relations between the United States and Taiwan
have been growing closer and stronger under President size terms
in office, and now I think with President Lai that
will continue. The fact that Biden said four times we
will defend Taiwan, which is more clear than what had
been our policy of strategic ambiguity, which was to not
(14:51):
say if we will come to Taiwan's defense in order
to stop Taiwan from provoking a war with China. But
what's really clear is that it's China provoking the West
and provoking Taiwan and changing the status quo and encircling
them with military fighter jets and all the rest, and
Taiwan is just seeking to defend itself. The United States
(15:13):
knows it, and I think Biden intends for Americans to
be there, but I think the call is also to
the international community, because the US can't defend Taiwan alone,
and it can't get there faster than two weeks. So
people in Taiwan need to be able to defend themselves,
and people in the Asia Pacific countries need to be
able to come to Taiwan's defense too and show that
(15:35):
we will.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And you show that in the film that they're doing maneuvers,
military maneuvers with President Zai there and she said, this
is not that we're declaring more on China, but we
want to be prepared in case we are invaded. And
of course they need to do that because you don't
know at any minute what may happen exactly. Well, let's
talk about the phone call that then President Trump made
(15:59):
to Taiwan and that what ensued after that, because I
thought that was also fascinating.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yes, that was I believe congratulatory phone call from President's
side to President Trump that he accepted and therefore became
the first time in forty years that the leader of
Taiwan and of the United States had that kind of interaction.
(16:26):
So it blew up into this diplomatic controversy. And whether
Trump understood the meaning and significance of it, I don't know.
I think he did have people on his team who
did know and wanted him to take the call, and
in a very childish way, of course, he tweeted she
called me all cats to kind of emphasize that it
(16:47):
wasn't his doing. I am concerned that he is still
around and that should he get anywhere near the presidency again,
not only Taiwan, but all of us will be in
terrible peril.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yes, he compared.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Taiwan to the tip of his pen and China to
the Oval office desk famously, and I think that's how
he calculated what matters and what doesn't. He likes things
large and gold, and he's greedy, and don't get me started.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
That's a whole other conversation that we can have. Oh
my goodness, will then how would others talk about who
went over to China to smooth things out after that?
Because that was you know, I didn't even know he
was still going and doing those kinds of things and
why and who sent him? But go on, let's talk.
(17:39):
I'll let you talk. Say who it is.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I think that Kissinger tends to deputize himself, and I
think he went in his capacity as CEO of Kissinger Associates.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Let's just tell himbody it was. It was Henry Kissinger
who at ninety three flew over to China to smooth
out diplomatic relationship with China after that infamous phone call
to come on exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
And so you have a very frustrated, very accomplished senior
diplomat from the United States, Bill Stanton, William Stanton, who's
been in Taiwan for decades and he's been a professor,
and he's been head of the American Institute in Taiwan,
which is a de facto embassy for the United States there,
(18:27):
who just says that it's unfortunate how little the United
States has learned over time. And I think that Kissinger,
who really was like a stand in for American foreign
policy the entire time he was alive, is part of
the problem because he was never held accountable for any
(18:50):
of his war crimes. There were no consequences. He was
a huge self promoter, and people felt that they had
to bound down to him. He never visited Taiwan, and
he never cared to have American foreign policy updated to
reflect reality. He's famous for the term real politique, but
(19:11):
there's nothing real about his politics. He never understood the
importance of women. He never understood the importance of countries
being treated equally and fairly on the world stage, and
he made a huge mistake in many different countries and
caused cost many lives and has done a lot of
(19:31):
damage that I think the United States can undo, but
has to show it will undo by prioritizing democracy in
a real way, by putting our values forward and not
our economic interests.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Right, everything's always about money. Just follow the money trail, seriously. Yes,
it's the truth. I mean it's it's you know, goes
back to all the president's men. Just follow the money,
and you know, it's We've had conversations, many conversations with
friends about that and saying, you know, we don't have
any really word, I mean saying what's going on in
(20:04):
our world because it's all about the you know, the
almighty dollar that's controlling every absolutely everything. So if Taiwan
was important to us as far as money, which it is,
you know in many ways, then it will have more
importance to us than if it didn't. So Nancy Pelosi
went over. I think that was pretty amazing too, So
(20:26):
talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Well, Nancy Pelosi is brave and she's a long time
supporter of human rights and democracy and she's that was
the parrot chiming in.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
He likes Nancy.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Pelosi has famously visited Beijing and Tianneman Square after the
June fourth crackdown. Everyone knows that she cares about and
values democracy and human rights. So for her to stand
up to Beige and fly to Taiwan when she did
and show support for President's Hi and their democracy was
(21:08):
meaningful and it wasn't her choice. She was invited by
President's Zai and she I think did a tour of
Asia at that time, kind of reaffirming the closeness of
our relations with all those countries in the Asia Pacific,
which is very important to reinforce that community.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yes, it is where have you shown this? Have you
shown it to? I mean, I know you have the
premiere in New York at the Quad, so anyone who's
listening please go get tickets to that. But have you
shown this to any people in the government? Have you
shown it to Nancy Pelosi? Let's say, have you shown
it to other people that could maybe make a difference.
(21:50):
Let's put it that way, because this film is it's
a film that not only is it just an amazing documentary,
but it is one that could, you know, change and
shift things, and that's why it's so important and it's
so important that it be seen.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Thank you so much for saying that. We have been
feeling that impact already. I'll just quickly tell you before
I talk about politicians, the American Bar Association International Law
Section just invited us to screen the film. They're the
establishment lawyers in the US but internationally, and they're re
(22:26):
emphasizing that under international law, Taiwan is a country and
arguing that Taiwan deserves to be represented as Taiwan and
international organizations and it should be readmitted to the UN
and all of that. So that's their way. When we
were in Berlin, we screened at the Reichstag in the
(22:46):
Parliament building for all of these German parliamentarians and that
was incredible, along with the de facto Taiwan ambassador to Germany.
All of those embassies are very supportive, and we're looking
at potential screenings for the UK Parliament, for the US Congress,
for the EU Parliament, and we'll see who else may
(23:09):
invite us. But when we played in DC with the
Council on Foreign Relations in Johns Hopkins Bloomberg Center, which
is a beautiful, beautiful screening room. We had Congressman Ted
Leo and the audience. Some people pronounce it Ted Lou,
but he's from California. He's great. And I believe Adam
(23:30):
Schiff also endorses the film, and we're hoping Pelosi will
watch it soon. She has a link, so we'll see great.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I wish unfortunately our time is up. I could continue
to talk to you more about this, and I wish
you nothing but great success and hopefully now the people
who really need to see it see it. So I
wish you much success, so much, and thank you. Thank
you Vanessa, lovely meeting ye to all my wonderful loyal listeners.
Your love of film allows me to do what I do.
(24:00):
If you want to support me, the best way to
do that is to hit the subscribe button on the
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Subscribing matters. If you are feeling really compelled, I want
to hear from you. Have a burning question, comment or review,
(24:22):
drop me an email at the Jamprice Show dot com.
Thank you for listening The Jam Price Show all about movies,
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