Sandra Grey: Tertiary Education Union's National Secretary on the Government's scheme to make the final year of University fees-free

The government's scheme to make the final year of university fees-free comes into effect today. 

The Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills Penny Simmons admitted no modelling data exists to suggest the subsidy will improve completion rates, but that they are hoping it will incentivize educational success.

Tertiary Education Union's National Secretary, Sandra Grey talks to Tim Beveridge.

LISTEN ABOVE . 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News talks'b follow this
and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yes, and the government's scheme to make the final year
of university the final year will be fees free. It
comes into effect today. The Minstery for Tertiary Education and Skills,
Penny Simmons admitted no modeling data data exists to suggest
the subsidy will improve completion rates, but they are hoping
it will incentivize educational success. Tertiary Education Union's National Sextuary

(00:39):
Sandra Gray is with me, Sandra, good morning, good morning.
Is this going to mean more students might be incentivized
to finish their degrees?

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well, there is, I say, no evidence that all of
this is going to help. In fact, what it will
mean is that first year students who are struggling will
drop out, and we probably will lose more students than
we have in the past few years because it's actually
in that first year that you need to support the
government ignored all the evidence and went ahead with a

(01:11):
scheme just to see whether it might help or not. Internationally,
no one thinks these types of schemes incentivize. In fact,
they put the money upfront rather than at the end
of degree.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Does the money upfront actually stop people dropping out? Because
I think we still see a heavy number of people
dropping out a first yet, don't.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
We We do? Look about twenty five percent of students
actually decide that university isn't their thing after the first year,
and that's actually okay. It's okay to say I'd be
better going and learning an apprenticeship or going on job.
You have to try it sometimes to decide that it's
not really your thing. I think one of the things

(01:50):
we have to realize is that people should have a
wide range of choices in their education and have that
support right up front to get into something that really
works for them. And to do that you need to
make sure you put your energies in at the start.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Would you rather see the scheme more tart than rather
sort of first, second or final year.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Look, I think at this stage, the biggest thing the
government could do to help students, particularly university students, but
those also in polytechnics and Juana is actually put some
money into pastoral care, into accommodation, because those are the
things that mean students are dropping out. If you can't
get some medy to live. If you're going to Victoria University,

(02:32):
you're going to drop out. If you can't afford your
rent in Auckland, you're going to leave and do something else.
So there are actually better schemes that the government could
go into to make sure students stay in their studies
and do well, so that we get all those qualified people.
We need the nurses, the teachers, the lawyers, we need
those people. We want to see a government supporting students

(02:54):
to really thrive in the education environment.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Is making university appealing? Is it all about the fees
or there are other things that need to be done.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Look the thing about education as you need to have
really good class sizes, you need to have really good
support mechanisms. And what we've seen over the last few
years is less and less money going into university, is
less and less money going into the running on polytechnics,
and that means things like class sizes have grown into

(03:26):
a size which really doesn't help students learn. It also
means that you've got very overworked staff who aren't able
to put their time and energy into students. So actually
we've seen a system that's degraded and that's showing us
in things like international rankings. We were just not seeing
the support going into students that's needed to keep us

(03:47):
competitive internationally.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Do you still think people value education and degrees in
general as university still as I don't, I use the
word sexy, but there we go.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Look, I actually think we sometimes overvalue that the piece
of paper as opposed to the learning which can happen
in a range of spaces. And we see people heading
into degrees and this is why they drop out when
in fact what they wanted to do was, you know,
go into an apprenticeship, or they wanted to go into
polytechnic learning, which is more suited to them because it's

(04:20):
hands on. So I think we have this inflation in
New Zealand. Somehow a degree will mean everyone will succeed
and everyone needs a degree. What we need, as we
need absolute a real conviction to learn throughout our lives
and learn in the way that's most appropriate for us
and for some of us. If that's university, I certainly

(04:41):
did it. But also we have to remember they're doing
fees free at the third year of a bachelor's degree.
There is very little support for people going on and
doing higher qualifications these days, and that's a worry for
a country that needs people who have master's degrees and
PhDs and to do research, and they've stripped a whole

(05:01):
lot of money out of the research space. So you know,
we haven't got them, we haven't got the formula right.
But they're really worrying saying is that we've got a
government that acknowledges they have no evidence that what they're
doing is gonna work. Why are they doing it? Well?

Speaker 2 (05:15):
There is a slightly common sense aspect that some people
might might go on with that, but I guess we'll
have to wait for the evidence, won't we. Hey, thanks Sandra,
really appreciate your time. That's Sandra from the Tertiary Education Union.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
For more from News Talks B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.