January 13, 2025 • 12 mins
David Seymour’s controversial Treaty Principles Bill has faced a fair bit of opposition since its introduction.
The ACT Leader says it comes from two main camps, and in his opinion, it reinforces the need for a debate around the Treaty of Waitangi and its application.
He told Tim Beveridge that the debate has shifted to the point where it’s not about race or the Treaty, but rather about whether New Zealand is a society that gives respect and dignity to each person, or whether it’s some “backwards-looking tribal place” where people have to say their race before their ideas are heard.
Seymour believes the presentation of the bill by the media is “pretty hopeless”.
He says there was one interview on TV1 where they gave more time to the protestors that interrupted his interview, than they did him.
“It’s pretty difficult not to despair with the standards of media coverage.”
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, the ACT Party had a big year last year
in twenty twenty four, from making the big moves into
the early early childhood sector and education, to the Ministry
of Regulation and even changes to having a cup of
tea at the hairdresser, and of course one of the
most significant bills in the history of this country, the
(00:36):
Treaty Principal's Bill. ACT Leader David Seymour joins me, Now,
good morning, good modding. Well, let's get into the big stuff.
The looking at the twenty twenty four and a head
I guess to twenty twenty five the Treaty Principal's Bill.
Has there, in your personal moments, ever been a time
(00:56):
when you thought, oh, is this all worth it?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
No? If anything, the level of opposition that we've had
has come from two distinct types that are really the
same when you think about it, and they have really
reinforced that we need to have this debate. The first
type is just the absolutely hysterical and really a tiny
(01:21):
minority within Martyrdom who get up and do harkism the
middle of Parliament. And abusive and say you're alive and
say you're racist, and we say, look, you know, we
can't allow that to be the face or the voice
of martyrdom because there's a lot of good in the
Mari world and they don't represent it. So that's the
(01:41):
first type. The other type are people, and they're all
the same. They write emails to me saying as a
Pakihar and I just write back and so why did
you find it necessary to fill me your race before
you see your ideas and what we're what we seem
to be facing as a group of people, whether the Mari,
(02:03):
whether the Paki, whatever, who fundamentally believe that their identity,
their adherence or fealty to a group is more important
than the inherent dignity that they have as an individual
human being. And really, what this debate has turned into
is not Mari versus Pakia. It's not really even it's
(02:26):
not about race, it's not really even about the treaty.
It's really about are we a society that gives respect
and dignity to each thinking and valuing human being, or
are we some sort of backward looking tribal place where
you've got to tell people your race before your ideas
get hurt.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, how have you viewed the media coverage in general
of this issue?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Well, pretty hopeless, I have to say. I think ZB
is doing well commercially because it actually gives people a run.
But I look at what I know. For example, TV
one hit a piece recently where they gave more time
to a couple of members of the public that came
up and interrupted the interview than me who interview, not
(03:17):
because their view was representative, in fact, their views in
the minority, but just because they are so an experience
at TV one. And the funny thing is that they
tell me privately that they're really worried about security and
people interrupting interviews, But then if you go and interrupt
your interview, they'll put you on TV and make you
(03:38):
give you a platform. So you know, it's pretty difficult
not to despair with the standards of media coverage. I
think fundamentally we've got a problem now that we don't
have newsrooms with a diversity of thought as far too
much group think, and as a result, they are actually
(03:59):
unable to produce news that works with the way that
New Zealanders actually think. At least the majority of New Zealand,
and I only have to point you to the YouTube
video of me getting interviewed by Jimmy Mayhardson. You know,
that's been seen over a quarter of a million times.
(04:20):
It's the most popular video on our YouTube. Wow. Now
that's probably three to four times more people than watched
the show that morning on TV. That shows you how
much trouble they are in. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, I mean even the all Blacks got involved. How
many people do you actually think when it comes to
the commentary in the media, have actually read the three clauses?
And do you think we ever will get a public
that have actually considered the clauses rather than just the
emotion that gets whipped up.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Well, making an enormous progress and the great irony is
are actually enhancing the manner and understanding of the treaty.
So a lot of people are reading about it that
might not have otherwise done so. And I'm doing that
because I believe the Treaty is ultimately a good document
that says the Crown is the right to govern, that
has an obligation to uphold people's rights, including their property rights,
(05:12):
and says all our rights are equal. I mean, it's
a beautiful one. Page document to found a country on.
It's just that's not how we've been using it for
the last fifty years. That my bill is designed to
restore those underlying principles. When people are confronted with the principles,
they will say by about two to one they're in
favor of them. When people are asked do they like
(05:34):
the bill, usually probably about forty percent or say no,
and thirty percent will say yes. The rest are unsure.
And what that tells me is that the media have
done a horrific job of actually presenting the facts in
the bill, with a few exceptions.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Look, it gets pretty aggressive out there as well. You
get a lot of people having a crack at you
just personally. How thick a skin do you have and
how do you actually cope with the personal pressure that
comes with these sorts of issues.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Well, I haven't really helped to worry about that because
I haven't had any effect of attacks. If somebody could
stand up and give a logical speech and say no, no, no, David,
your role, it would be better for New Zealand to
be a sort of slightly unusual state divided into two races.
And here's why it's a good idea. Then I think, OK,
(06:28):
that's pretty tough. Maybe I'm wrong about all this, but
nobody has done that. Probably the closest we've had there's
Jack Tame trying to tell me that Sweden is actually
a bicultural state because the Sami and the far far
north of the country about thirty thousand of them, I
have a separate parliament that makes a limited number of
(06:49):
decisions about how they live. And good old Helmet MODELIC
in a debate and good on them, tried to say
that Indian reservations in the United States are a model
that we should aspire to in New Zealand. I think
at one point someone even told me Australia has done
a better job with its race relations. I think you've
got to be So you know, I haven't needed a
(07:13):
thick skin because all I've heard is noise and calling
and abuse. That's just you know, I got over that
in about second year of primary school. You know what
would really require a thick skin as having someone stand
up and improve why I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So, David, you're about to step into being Deputy PM.
Are you excited about that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I am. I think it's a great honor, but it's
not for me. It's actually for a quarter of a
million people who gave their party vote to ACT, and
probably a lot more people who may not have voted
for us last time, but basically share our values. You know,
we're a group of people who fundamentally believe that you
should be able to make a difference in your own life,
(08:00):
you should treat everyone as you find them, not being
discriminated against and really got beaten down. I mean, if
you're a landlord, if you're an employer, if you're a farmer,
if you're a licensed fire and owner, if you're someone
likes free speech. You know that we had a prime
minister who promised kindness but was very quick to kind
of punish us through the laws and the regulations and
(08:22):
the rhetoric that she used against us. A whole lot
of people like that came out and said, well, actually,
bugger you, we're going to vote ACT. And so I
feel very proud of that as the leader of that
movement to say, actually, you know, our guy can be
the deputy prime minister too. So yeah, in that sense,
it's quite exciting.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, and your coalition partners. A lot of people were
predicting that would never work. Seems to be going all
right so far. Have you had some quality time with
Winston Peters. No.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
I mean, for one thing, I wouldn't mind getting that
he spent more time in other countries than at home.
It's he's done a good job on the Foreign Minister.
It's pretty brull in my travel. And for another thing,
we're just kind of busy. And for a third thing,
(09:13):
you know, I never went into Parliament to make friends.
I already got friends mostly in Auckland, and went to
Parliament the politics to make friends with you with your competitors, then.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
That would be a very sad I guess the reason
I asked this because you know, from obviously you guys
seem to be a lot more at loggerheads in the
campaign phase, but it seems that there's a sort of
mutual respect that's kicked in. Would that be right?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
I think that's fair. But I also think that, you know,
you've got to look at the size of the economic challenge.
I mean, we are really under pressure in New Zealand.
We are not really delivering what most New Zealanders expect.
But if you work hard and you know, you get
a house and you can bring up your kids and
basically have a future were failed and as a result,
(10:02):
I think we really have to know the head down
by them up trying to work out, well, how do
how do you make this country work again? Because I
think a lot of people that's not working, and that's
why we've seen such large numbers of people leave. So look,
quite apart from any personal dynamic, you know, when you're
facing a crisis, and I think New Zealand isn't the
(10:22):
long drawn out crisis of how do we make this
a place that people who grow up here want to stay?
Then you know, the personal stuff's not really a big issue.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
You're happy with the school lunches.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Well, you know, when the school goes back, you'll see
the first of the new school lunches and we will
have saved about one hundred and ten million dollars this here,
probably aboute hundred and fifty million the following year. Some
context of labor had done it the way that we
are proposing to do it over the last five years,
they could have saved eight hundred million dollars. That's now,
(10:59):
of course they were borrowing all that, so that's now
extra debt that we're paying interest on. Get the same
results so I'm pretty happy with what we're delivered in
terms of the contract. All eyes will be on watching
what the contract is delivering for the kids.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
And you've taken some time off of a summer to
reach out to the Battery's got a secret spot you
want to share with us.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I like going to the far North, where I've been
going since I was born and my grandparents bought the
place in North London. In North London, I wentary school
up in front and it's a very special part of
the country.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Any particular goals for twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Because I want to see a lot more retake on.
So the Ministry of Regulation has started in twenty twenty
four rolling out its sept to reviews or they just
go through the sept to ask the people wipe out
the red tape and see that momentum of the Cup
this year, because I think red tape is ultimately the
main thing that is stopping us using our creativity and
(12:01):
I just want to keep growing act. I'm really proud
of the way that Brooklyn Dalden, Nicole McKee, Garry Shaw
as Simon called, Andrew Hogart know Mark Cameron and they're
all doing tremendous Chile parms. You know, I'm really lucky
to have the MPs that I do, and I want
to keep growing that team so that come twenty twenty
six people will say, well, you know, the country's still
(12:23):
got some big challenges, but if we want to keep
the government and make it better, these are the ones
to go with.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Good stuff. Hey, David, really appreciate your time this morning.
Have a great summer, and we'll catch up with you
again and further on into the year.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
You too, Tom, Go well.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
For more from News Talks' b listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, the ACT Party had a big year last year
in twenty twenty four, from making the big moves into
the early early childhood sector and education, to the Ministry
of Regulation and even changes to having a cup of
tea at the hairdresser, and of course one of the
most significant bills in the history of this country, the
(00:36):
Treaty Principal's Bill. ACT Leader David Seymour joins me, Now,
good morning, good modding. Well, let's get into the big stuff.
The looking at the twenty twenty four and a head
I guess to twenty twenty five the Treaty Principal's Bill.
Has there, in your personal moments, ever been a time
(00:56):
when you thought, oh, is this all worth it?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
No? If anything, the level of opposition that we've had
has come from two distinct types that are really the
same when you think about it, and they have really
reinforced that we need to have this debate. The first
type is just the absolutely hysterical and really a tiny
(01:21):
minority within Martyrdom who get up and do harkism the
middle of Parliament. And abusive and say you're alive and
say you're racist, and we say, look, you know, we
can't allow that to be the face or the voice
of martyrdom because there's a lot of good in the
Mari world and they don't represent it. So that's the
(01:41):
first type. The other type are people, and they're all
the same. They write emails to me saying as a
Pakihar and I just write back and so why did
you find it necessary to fill me your race before
you see your ideas and what we're what we seem
to be facing as a group of people, whether the Mari,
(02:03):
whether the Paki, whatever, who fundamentally believe that their identity,
their adherence or fealty to a group is more important
than the inherent dignity that they have as an individual
human being. And really, what this debate has turned into
is not Mari versus Pakia. It's not really even it's
(02:26):
not about race, it's not really even about the treaty.
It's really about are we a society that gives respect
and dignity to each thinking and valuing human being, or
are we some sort of backward looking tribal place where
you've got to tell people your race before your ideas
get hurt.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, how have you viewed the media coverage in general
of this issue?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Well, pretty hopeless, I have to say. I think ZB
is doing well commercially because it actually gives people a run.
But I look at what I know. For example, TV
one hit a piece recently where they gave more time
to a couple of members of the public that came
up and interrupted the interview than me who interview, not
(03:17):
because their view was representative, in fact, their views in
the minority, but just because they are so an experience
at TV one. And the funny thing is that they
tell me privately that they're really worried about security and
people interrupting interviews, But then if you go and interrupt
your interview, they'll put you on TV and make you
(03:38):
give you a platform. So you know, it's pretty difficult
not to despair with the standards of media coverage. I
think fundamentally we've got a problem now that we don't
have newsrooms with a diversity of thought as far too
much group think, and as a result, they are actually
(03:59):
unable to produce news that works with the way that
New Zealanders actually think. At least the majority of New Zealand,
and I only have to point you to the YouTube
video of me getting interviewed by Jimmy Mayhardson. You know,
that's been seen over a quarter of a million times.
(04:20):
It's the most popular video on our YouTube. Wow. Now
that's probably three to four times more people than watched
the show that morning on TV. That shows you how
much trouble they are in. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, I mean even the all Blacks got involved. How
many people do you actually think when it comes to
the commentary in the media, have actually read the three clauses?
And do you think we ever will get a public
that have actually considered the clauses rather than just the
emotion that gets whipped up.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Well, making an enormous progress and the great irony is
are actually enhancing the manner and understanding of the treaty.
So a lot of people are reading about it that
might not have otherwise done so. And I'm doing that
because I believe the Treaty is ultimately a good document
that says the Crown is the right to govern, that
has an obligation to uphold people's rights, including their property rights,
(05:12):
and says all our rights are equal. I mean, it's
a beautiful one. Page document to found a country on.
It's just that's not how we've been using it for
the last fifty years. That my bill is designed to
restore those underlying principles. When people are confronted with the principles,
they will say by about two to one they're in
favor of them. When people are asked do they like
(05:34):
the bill, usually probably about forty percent or say no,
and thirty percent will say yes. The rest are unsure.
And what that tells me is that the media have
done a horrific job of actually presenting the facts in
the bill, with a few exceptions.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Look, it gets pretty aggressive out there as well. You
get a lot of people having a crack at you
just personally. How thick a skin do you have and
how do you actually cope with the personal pressure that
comes with these sorts of issues.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Well, I haven't really helped to worry about that because
I haven't had any effect of attacks. If somebody could
stand up and give a logical speech and say no, no, no, David,
your role, it would be better for New Zealand to
be a sort of slightly unusual state divided into two races.
And here's why it's a good idea. Then I think, OK,
(06:28):
that's pretty tough. Maybe I'm wrong about all this, but
nobody has done that. Probably the closest we've had there's
Jack Tame trying to tell me that Sweden is actually
a bicultural state because the Sami and the far far
north of the country about thirty thousand of them, I
have a separate parliament that makes a limited number of
(06:49):
decisions about how they live. And good old Helmet MODELIC
in a debate and good on them, tried to say
that Indian reservations in the United States are a model
that we should aspire to in New Zealand. I think
at one point someone even told me Australia has done
a better job with its race relations. I think you've
got to be So you know, I haven't needed a
(07:13):
thick skin because all I've heard is noise and calling
and abuse. That's just you know, I got over that
in about second year of primary school. You know what
would really require a thick skin as having someone stand
up and improve why I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So, David, you're about to step into being Deputy PM.
Are you excited about that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I am. I think it's a great honor, but it's
not for me. It's actually for a quarter of a
million people who gave their party vote to ACT, and
probably a lot more people who may not have voted
for us last time, but basically share our values. You know,
we're a group of people who fundamentally believe that you
should be able to make a difference in your own life,
(08:00):
you should treat everyone as you find them, not being
discriminated against and really got beaten down. I mean, if
you're a landlord, if you're an employer, if you're a farmer,
if you're a licensed fire and owner, if you're someone
likes free speech. You know that we had a prime
minister who promised kindness but was very quick to kind
of punish us through the laws and the regulations and
(08:22):
the rhetoric that she used against us. A whole lot
of people like that came out and said, well, actually,
bugger you, we're going to vote ACT. And so I
feel very proud of that as the leader of that
movement to say, actually, you know, our guy can be
the deputy prime minister too. So yeah, in that sense,
it's quite exciting.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, and your coalition partners. A lot of people were
predicting that would never work. Seems to be going all
right so far. Have you had some quality time with
Winston Peters. No.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
I mean, for one thing, I wouldn't mind getting that
he spent more time in other countries than at home.
It's he's done a good job on the Foreign Minister.
It's pretty brull in my travel. And for another thing,
we're just kind of busy. And for a third thing,
(09:13):
you know, I never went into Parliament to make friends.
I already got friends mostly in Auckland, and went to
Parliament the politics to make friends with you with your competitors, then.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
That would be a very sad I guess the reason
I asked this because you know, from obviously you guys
seem to be a lot more at loggerheads in the
campaign phase, but it seems that there's a sort of
mutual respect that's kicked in. Would that be right?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
I think that's fair. But I also think that, you know,
you've got to look at the size of the economic challenge.
I mean, we are really under pressure in New Zealand.
We are not really delivering what most New Zealanders expect.
But if you work hard and you know, you get
a house and you can bring up your kids and
basically have a future were failed and as a result,
(10:02):
I think we really have to know the head down
by them up trying to work out, well, how do
how do you make this country work again? Because I
think a lot of people that's not working, and that's
why we've seen such large numbers of people leave. So look,
quite apart from any personal dynamic, you know, when you're
facing a crisis, and I think New Zealand isn't the
(10:22):
long drawn out crisis of how do we make this
a place that people who grow up here want to stay?
Then you know, the personal stuff's not really a big issue.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
You're happy with the school lunches.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Well, you know, when the school goes back, you'll see
the first of the new school lunches and we will
have saved about one hundred and ten million dollars this here,
probably aboute hundred and fifty million the following year. Some
context of labor had done it the way that we
are proposing to do it over the last five years,
they could have saved eight hundred million dollars. That's now,
(10:59):
of course they were borrowing all that, so that's now
extra debt that we're paying interest on. Get the same
results so I'm pretty happy with what we're delivered in
terms of the contract. All eyes will be on watching
what the contract is delivering for the kids.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
And you've taken some time off of a summer to
reach out to the Battery's got a secret spot you
want to share with us.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I like going to the far North, where I've been
going since I was born and my grandparents bought the
place in North London. In North London, I wentary school
up in front and it's a very special part of
the country.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Any particular goals for twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Because I want to see a lot more retake on.
So the Ministry of Regulation has started in twenty twenty
four rolling out its sept to reviews or they just
go through the sept to ask the people wipe out
the red tape and see that momentum of the Cup
this year, because I think red tape is ultimately the
main thing that is stopping us using our creativity and
(12:01):
I just want to keep growing act. I'm really proud
of the way that Brooklyn Dalden, Nicole McKee, Garry Shaw
as Simon called, Andrew Hogart know Mark Cameron and they're
all doing tremendous Chile parms. You know, I'm really lucky
to have the MPs that I do, and I want
to keep growing that team so that come twenty twenty
six people will say, well, you know, the country's still
(12:23):
got some big challenges, but if we want to keep
the government and make it better, these are the ones
to go with.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Good stuff. Hey, David, really appreciate your time this morning.
Have a great summer, and we'll catch up with you
again and further on into the year.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
You too, Tom, Go well.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
For more from News Talks' b listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com