Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I don't know a lot about baseball.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I know a little bit, not enough to be helpful,
maybe not even enough to be dangerous. But luckily I
have a friend who knows a lot, and that's Jack Corrigan.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
He was on the show just the other just the
other day, And.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Most people don't get invited back twice in such short succession.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
But when you know as much.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
As Jack knows about something that I know so little about,
I really have very little option other than to call
him Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Jack, good morning Ross. I feel privileged to be a
multi guest in the same week.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So I grew up watching Pete Rose and I did
not grow up watching Shoeless Joe Jackson a little before
my time, and you're old, but he's a little even
before your time.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
And don't you love these conversations?
Speaker 4 (00:48):
I do.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, of course, I'm glad we're friends. Otherwise you'd be
hanging up on me right now. And yesterday we had
a decision from the Commission of Major League Baseball that
affects these guys and another dozen and a half other guys.
So before we get into the nitty gritty of what
we think about it or what you think about it,
(01:10):
can you tell us what the decision was.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, essentially, Rob Manfred interpreted the rules in terms of
the Hall of Fame from Major League Baseball's perspective that
a person who has been suspended slash banned from from
(01:37):
the game has that suspension banning eliminated upon their death.
So obviously, for people like Joe Jackson and the other
members of the infamous Chicago Black Sox, they're all deceased,
(01:58):
so they are no longer considered suspended by Major League Baseball,
and the same with Pete Rose. So that's the first
part of it. People then immediately assume ross that, well,
now these guys are going to get into the Hall
of Fame, and how are they painting baseball if you will,
(02:24):
by doing so. But it's more layered than that, and
that's really kind of the next step is this discussion goes.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
On, all right, and I assume there are some people
on this permanently banned list who are still alive right now.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I'm just guessing though.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, I mean, you have people I don't know if
they're permanently banned, but the ped group, you know, Barry Bonds,
Roger Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, Mark McGuire, Rafiel, pal Merrow, there's
(03:04):
an interesting list, So I mean those that you know,
where does the Hall consider those things? But the big
issue here, Ross is that most people don't realize that
while Major League Baseball is obviously very involved, they don't
(03:26):
have the final say on who does or doesn't get
into the Hall of Fame. That's really the baseball writers
around the country. And you know, in the case of
people like Rose and others, it's a Veterans Committee, which
(03:47):
is a group of writers, former players who are in
the Hall, and other retired baseball executives that.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
So, are you suggesting or stating that theoretically Pete Rose
could have been inducted into the Hall of Fame no
matter what MLB said about him.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Know what Rob Manfred did is he removed in a sense,
the the automatic prohibition, if you will, because they were
a suspended slash band, they couldn't be considered But now
that they're deceased, they could be considered it. And really
(04:39):
the under one of the underlying motives, whether it was
Rob Manfred or Bud Celik before him, their fear a
lot of layers, but their fear, in my judgment about
Rose being selected at some point would be that he
would use his speech at the induction to absolutely o
(05:07):
viscerate major League Baseball, and that they weren't going to
give him a platform is kind of the bottom line
out of all of it. Nobody disputes his baseball qualifications,
but it's more than baggage. It's the back of the
truck in terms of the extras that Pete Rose carried.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
So all right, again, obviously you're one of the true
experts on this, and I know almost nothing right. I
know watching the Reds when I when I was a kid.
As I think about these different groups that we're talking
about here now, and there's lots of different reasons, but
let's talk about Pete Rose is one category. The Chicago
(05:54):
Black Sox is another category, and the performance enhancing drug
groups is another cat. So I understand that there is a
very hard and fast rule in Major League Baseball about
gambling on games if you're part of the league in
any way, even if you're betting on your own team.
(06:15):
And I haven't seen evidence that Pete Rose ever bet
against his team.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
You can tell me if I have that wrong.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
But he didn't throw a game, and he didn't cheat,
whereas the other groups did those things, and in my mind,
just again as a as a spectator and not an expert,
I feel like Rose deserves a little bit less harsh
treatment than people who I feel like corrupted the game
(06:45):
more than a lot more than Rose did.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
But maybe you think.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
What Rose did was was close to or equally corrupting
to the game as the other stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Well, to take it to another layer, oss which makes
it so interesting, all of the evidence against the Black
Sox players in throwing the nineteen nineteen World Series, at
least in the court of law, was disproven. I mean,
(07:19):
they were all found innocent in the court of law,
and Kennesaw Mountain Landis, who was a judge himself at
one point who was made the commissioner, he was the
one that found them guilty in the laws of baseball.
But technically from a criminal legal perspective, they were never
(07:44):
found guilty. Much in the same way. We don't know
or didn't have the evidence to prove that Rose against
the Red Well, he was a manager, but there was
plenty of speculation and pretty good witness evidence that he
(08:12):
was a heavy gambler and he had other issues, you know,
spend time in prison for tax evasion had an issue
with an underage girl for a while. You know, it's
it ultimately gets down to is it a Hall of
fame or is it a hall of morality? As I've
(08:35):
heard some people describe, and you know, they want Rose
and some of the others to be judged strictly on
how they performed as a player. But as we know,
I mean that baggage, if you will. The other stuff
always enters into things when people are voting on something.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Do you, Jack, do you vote on this? Are you
a voter?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
You've just stuck me with a needle of ross, because
one of the frustrations for a lot of us is
that that voting is controlled by the Baseball Writers' Association
of America and they alone vote on the Hall of
Fame Veterans Committee has some different people, but they alone
(09:27):
vote on it. And the basic problem is nobody watches
games as closely as baseball broadcasters do because we have to.
I mean, especially on the radio side. You're the eyes
and ears for your audience. And you know, you think
(09:47):
about it. Vin Scully broadcast baseball for sixty seven years
and never had a vote on who belonged in the
Hall of fame. Wow, and he saw more baseball than anybody.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Yeah, and you'll have times where guys got in or
didn't get in based more on the capricious feelings of some.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Sports calumnist, a writer who buy experience or just reputation,
decided that, you know, hey, that Ross Kaminski. I don't
care if he hit four hundred or nine years. He's
a piece of work and treated you know, so and
so badly. So heck with him. I'm gonna vote for him.
(10:34):
And you know that happens in lots of voting, but
sure the baseball side of it's frustrating for that factor,
for my fraternity, if you will, the people who watched
the game as closely as anybody.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I didn't mean to raise a source subject with you.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Well, you know, I'll keep waving that play. Nobody's going
to look at it. Right there?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
You go talking with Jack Corrigan, he is, of course,
with his broadcast partner Jerry Shammel, the voice of the
Colorado Rockies. And and Jack, for how many years in
total have you been broadcasting baseball if you include your
time in Cleveland.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
For forty year seasons?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, I see a quote from Marcus Giamatti, who was
the son of the commissioner who signed the original band
that I guess was really in agreement with Rose. And
he said the sons because because was his name, Bart,
was Bart the dad?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, So Bart I think died like just maybe days
after doing this thing with with Rose. Marcus the son
says he's incredibly disappointed in decision, and I'm quoting here,
I'm also disappointed that my family wasn't consulted. The commissioner's
decision makes this a dark day for baseball, the country
and the fans. My father's mission by banning Rose was
(11:58):
to uphold the integrity of the game. Therefore, or reinstating
Rose in this manner puts that integrity Rule twenty one
and everything that my father fought to uphold in peril.
So let me just make this a little bit more
of a personal question for you, Jack, and again not
to stick you with a needle, but if you, if
you were a voter, would you be willing to consider
(12:23):
voting for Pete Rose?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
And yeah, let's do let's start there.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I probably would say no in terms of voting for Rose,
because enough consideration of what he tarnished with the game,
I think part of the motivation of Rob Manfred in
(12:53):
baseball right now is the contradictory nature of the fact
you're keeping people out for gambling, and yet one of
the big advertisers or advertising groups for baseball now is
(13:14):
sports Betty, you know, And I mean, that's that's a
pretty pretty large contradiction. I totally respect or appreciate a
Rose's contribution as a player just on the field, but
(13:35):
even then, Pete would play to the edge or cross
the line. And no, it's not necessarily a hall of morality.
But I think people that you do honor, you would
hope for the most part, are at least somewhat exemplary
(13:56):
in terms of their character. I think for Pete it
was always was to his grave about Pete and not
about the game or his teammates or anything else. And
probably that's why if I had a vote, I would
not vote him into the Hall.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
What it reminds me of a little bit is a
phrase you here in lots of other contexts, you know,
for example, when the Hunter Biden stuff was going on
during the Biden administration, or there's a lot of other
context But but nobody's above the law, and maybe the
right lesson here.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And this is what I think you're pointing at is
that you could be the greatest player of all time.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And I don't know if Pete Rose is the greatest
player of all time, but he's on that list for sure.
You could be among the greatest players of all time.
But if you break the rules, you're gonna be punished
just like anybody else would be. And maybe that's maybe
that's the right lesson, not just for baseball, but for
you know, my kids.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, I think that's a I congratulations, Cross, there's one
of your good analogies.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
No, yeah, it is true. I mean put it another way,
just from a personal perspective for me. In nineteen ninety five,
Albert Bell had one of the greatest individual seasons in
baseball history. Strike strike shortened year. He was remarkable for Cleveland.
(15:31):
He didn't win the MVP Award that mow Vaughn or
the Red Sox did because Albert was, you know, a contrarian.
Very few people liked him. He you know, got in
fights with sports writers, fans, media, so he didn't win
the award. He was the best player that year the
(15:52):
American League, but he didn't win the award because a
lot of people said, I don't care how good he
is for all of this stuff. I'm not voting for him.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Jack Carrigan, Voice of the Colorado Rockies.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Thanks for your time.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
As always, Jack, I wish you and the team lots
of luck.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Thank you, Ros appreciate it. Good talking to you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
You too, You too.
I don't know a lot about baseball.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I know a little bit, not enough to be helpful,
maybe not even enough to be dangerous. But luckily I
have a friend who knows a lot, and that's Jack Corrigan.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
He was on the show just the other just the
other day, And.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Most people don't get invited back twice in such short succession.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
But when you know as much.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
As Jack knows about something that I know so little about,
I really have very little option other than to call
him Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Jack, good morning Ross. I feel privileged to be a
multi guest in the same week.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So I grew up watching Pete Rose and I did
not grow up watching Shoeless Joe Jackson a little before
my time, and you're old, but he's a little even
before your time.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
And don't you love these conversations?
Speaker 4 (00:48):
I do.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, of course, I'm glad we're friends. Otherwise you'd be
hanging up on me right now. And yesterday we had
a decision from the Commission of Major League Baseball that
affects these guys and another dozen and a half other guys.
So before we get into the nitty gritty of what
we think about it or what you think about it,
(01:10):
can you tell us what the decision was.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, essentially, Rob Manfred interpreted the rules in terms of
the Hall of Fame from Major League Baseball's perspective that
a person who has been suspended slash banned from from
(01:37):
the game has that suspension banning eliminated upon their death.
So obviously, for people like Joe Jackson and the other
members of the infamous Chicago Black Sox, they're all deceased,
(01:58):
so they are no longer considered suspended by Major League Baseball,
and the same with Pete Rose. So that's the first
part of it. People then immediately assume ross that, well,
now these guys are going to get into the Hall
of Fame, and how are they painting baseball if you will,
(02:24):
by doing so. But it's more layered than that, and
that's really kind of the next step is this discussion goes.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
On, all right, and I assume there are some people
on this permanently banned list who are still alive right now.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I'm just guessing though.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, I mean, you have people I don't know if
they're permanently banned, but the ped group, you know, Barry Bonds,
Roger Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, Mark McGuire, Rafiel, pal Merrow, there's
(03:04):
an interesting list, So I mean those that you know,
where does the Hall consider those things? But the big
issue here, Ross is that most people don't realize that
while Major League Baseball is obviously very involved, they don't
(03:26):
have the final say on who does or doesn't get
into the Hall of Fame. That's really the baseball writers
around the country. And you know, in the case of
people like Rose and others, it's a Veterans Committee, which
(03:47):
is a group of writers, former players who are in
the Hall, and other retired baseball executives that.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
So, are you suggesting or stating that theoretically Pete Rose
could have been inducted into the Hall of Fame no
matter what MLB said about him.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Know what Rob Manfred did is he removed in a sense,
the the automatic prohibition, if you will, because they were
a suspended slash band, they couldn't be considered But now
that they're deceased, they could be considered it. And really
(04:39):
the under one of the underlying motives, whether it was
Rob Manfred or Bud Celik before him, their fear a
lot of layers, but their fear, in my judgment about
Rose being selected at some point would be that he
would use his speech at the induction to absolutely o
(05:07):
viscerate major League Baseball, and that they weren't going to
give him a platform is kind of the bottom line
out of all of it. Nobody disputes his baseball qualifications,
but it's more than baggage. It's the back of the
truck in terms of the extras that Pete Rose carried.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
So all right, again, obviously you're one of the true
experts on this, and I know almost nothing right. I
know watching the Reds when I when I was a kid.
As I think about these different groups that we're talking
about here now, and there's lots of different reasons, but
let's talk about Pete Rose is one category. The Chicago
(05:54):
Black Sox is another category, and the performance enhancing drug
groups is another cat. So I understand that there is a
very hard and fast rule in Major League Baseball about
gambling on games if you're part of the league in
any way, even if you're betting on your own team.
(06:15):
And I haven't seen evidence that Pete Rose ever bet
against his team.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
You can tell me if I have that wrong.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
But he didn't throw a game, and he didn't cheat,
whereas the other groups did those things, and in my mind,
just again as a as a spectator and not an expert,
I feel like Rose deserves a little bit less harsh
treatment than people who I feel like corrupted the game
(06:45):
more than a lot more than Rose did.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
But maybe you think.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
What Rose did was was close to or equally corrupting
to the game as the other stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Well, to take it to another layer, oss which makes
it so interesting, all of the evidence against the Black
Sox players in throwing the nineteen nineteen World Series, at
least in the court of law, was disproven. I mean,
(07:19):
they were all found innocent in the court of law,
and Kennesaw Mountain Landis, who was a judge himself at
one point who was made the commissioner, he was the
one that found them guilty in the laws of baseball.
But technically from a criminal legal perspective, they were never
(07:44):
found guilty. Much in the same way. We don't know
or didn't have the evidence to prove that Rose against
the Red Well, he was a manager, but there was
plenty of speculation and pretty good witness evidence that he
(08:12):
was a heavy gambler and he had other issues, you know,
spend time in prison for tax evasion had an issue
with an underage girl for a while. You know, it's
it ultimately gets down to is it a Hall of
fame or is it a hall of morality? As I've
(08:35):
heard some people describe, and you know, they want Rose
and some of the others to be judged strictly on
how they performed as a player. But as we know,
I mean that baggage, if you will. The other stuff
always enters into things when people are voting on something.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Do you, Jack, do you vote on this? Are you
a voter?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
You've just stuck me with a needle of ross, because
one of the frustrations for a lot of us is
that that voting is controlled by the Baseball Writers' Association
of America and they alone vote on the Hall of
Fame Veterans Committee has some different people, but they alone
(09:27):
vote on it. And the basic problem is nobody watches
games as closely as baseball broadcasters do because we have to.
I mean, especially on the radio side. You're the eyes
and ears for your audience. And you know, you think
(09:47):
about it. Vin Scully broadcast baseball for sixty seven years
and never had a vote on who belonged in the
Hall of fame. Wow, and he saw more baseball than anybody.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Yeah, and you'll have times where guys got in or
didn't get in based more on the capricious feelings of some.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Sports calumnist, a writer who buy experience or just reputation,
decided that, you know, hey, that Ross Kaminski. I don't
care if he hit four hundred or nine years. He's
a piece of work and treated you know, so and
so badly. So heck with him. I'm gonna vote for him.
(10:34):
And you know that happens in lots of voting, but
sure the baseball side of it's frustrating for that factor,
for my fraternity, if you will, the people who watched
the game as closely as anybody.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I didn't mean to raise a source subject with you.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Well, you know, I'll keep waving that play. Nobody's going
to look at it. Right there?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
You go talking with Jack Corrigan, he is, of course,
with his broadcast partner Jerry Shammel, the voice of the
Colorado Rockies. And and Jack, for how many years in
total have you been broadcasting baseball if you include your
time in Cleveland.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
For forty year seasons?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, I see a quote from Marcus Giamatti, who was
the son of the commissioner who signed the original band
that I guess was really in agreement with Rose. And
he said the sons because because was his name, Bart,
was Bart the dad?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, So Bart I think died like just maybe days
after doing this thing with with Rose. Marcus the son
says he's incredibly disappointed in decision, and I'm quoting here,
I'm also disappointed that my family wasn't consulted. The commissioner's
decision makes this a dark day for baseball, the country
and the fans. My father's mission by banning Rose was
(11:58):
to uphold the integrity of the game. Therefore, or reinstating
Rose in this manner puts that integrity Rule twenty one
and everything that my father fought to uphold in peril.
So let me just make this a little bit more
of a personal question for you, Jack, and again not
to stick you with a needle, but if you, if
you were a voter, would you be willing to consider
(12:23):
voting for Pete Rose?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
And yeah, let's do let's start there.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I probably would say no in terms of voting for Rose,
because enough consideration of what he tarnished with the game,
I think part of the motivation of Rob Manfred in
(12:53):
baseball right now is the contradictory nature of the fact
you're keeping people out for gambling, and yet one of
the big advertisers or advertising groups for baseball now is
(13:14):
sports Betty, you know, And I mean, that's that's a
pretty pretty large contradiction. I totally respect or appreciate a
Rose's contribution as a player just on the field, but
(13:35):
even then, Pete would play to the edge or cross
the line. And no, it's not necessarily a hall of morality.
But I think people that you do honor, you would
hope for the most part, are at least somewhat exemplary
(13:56):
in terms of their character. I think for Pete it
was always was to his grave about Pete and not
about the game or his teammates or anything else. And
probably that's why if I had a vote, I would
not vote him into the Hall.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
What it reminds me of a little bit is a
phrase you here in lots of other contexts, you know,
for example, when the Hunter Biden stuff was going on
during the Biden administration, or there's a lot of other
context But but nobody's above the law, and maybe the
right lesson here.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And this is what I think you're pointing at is
that you could be the greatest player of all time.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And I don't know if Pete Rose is the greatest
player of all time, but he's on that list for sure.
You could be among the greatest players of all time.
But if you break the rules, you're gonna be punished
just like anybody else would be. And maybe that's maybe
that's the right lesson, not just for baseball, but for
you know, my kids.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, I think that's a I congratulations, Cross, there's one
of your good analogies.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
No, yeah, it is true. I mean put it another way,
just from a personal perspective for me. In nineteen ninety five,
Albert Bell had one of the greatest individual seasons in
baseball history. Strike strike shortened year. He was remarkable for Cleveland.
(15:31):
He didn't win the MVP Award that mow Vaughn or
the Red Sox did because Albert was, you know, a contrarian.
Very few people liked him. He you know, got in
fights with sports writers, fans, media, so he didn't win
the award. He was the best player that year the
(15:52):
American League, but he didn't win the award because a
lot of people said, I don't care how good he
is for all of this stuff. I'm not voting for him.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Jack Carrigan, Voice of the Colorado Rockies.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Thanks for your time.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
As always, Jack, I wish you and the team lots
of luck.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Thank you, Ros appreciate it. Good talking to you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
You too, You too.
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