Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I've got a couple friends in studio. Mitch mitcham is back.
He's the founder of Hive and you can find their
website at ahumanhive dot com. And it's basically, well, i'll
call it, sort of elite AI consulting.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
AI enablement consulting, training.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
And Mitch was on a couple months ago, and I
thought it was such an interesting conversation, and not just
the nerdy side. I'm a nerd and I love the nerdy,
sort of in the weeds technological side, but mostly what
we're going to talk about today is actually the applicability
of AI to real world problems, solving problems, business use, education,
all this stuff. And another friend of mine showed up
(00:39):
a little bit early. He's going to be on the show,
you know, talking about his own stuff in half an hour.
But Governor Poulis is in studio with us and might
jump into the conversation, so Jared, at any point if
you want to ask a question or jump in, you
can just start talking or wave at me or whatever
you want to do.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So Hello, and thanks for being here. Excited to hear
about AI. This should be fun.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Mitch, I'm honored to be here. Thanks for being in
the room.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So you and I and the governor were talking before
we went on the air about AI literacy, and you
were talking about human skills literacy and how those two relate.
So can you describe that a little bit in language
everybody can understand.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, in simple terms.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Over the last probably ten years, but especially since COVID,
we've lost our human ability for empathy, connection, true community building.
You can see it all across You see it in government,
you can see it in schools, you see it just
in how we treat each other. We've lost this human
edge to us, our human elements. So we're not very
good I would argue right now at communicating in a
(01:39):
long way or having a debate or talking about complex issues,
which is what we were talking about in the room earlier.
Humans have lost these abilities. Instead, now we're super reactive.
We communicate in one hundred and forty characters or less.
We don't really put thought or consciousness or any kind
of skill into how we interact with each other. On
(02:00):
the other hand, AI tools have been developed to be
incredibly almost like the best type of human imaginable. They're
very empathetic, they always want the best outcome, they're trying
to really hear you and understand you. They're trying to
communicate with you in a full way so they get
your result with you. I mean, imagine if humans operated
at that optimal level would actually be solving problems, we
(02:21):
would listening to each other. So that's what we've discovered,
and we've delivered this now for about thirty five thousand
client professionals across different industries everywhere from the Rockies all
the way through baseball, basketball and corporations like Microsoft. So
what we see though, at the human level, people who
learn the tool get better at being human, not just
(02:44):
at using the tool.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
All right, and let me ask you, just keep your
mouth close to the microphone. Sure, And so I'm very
interested first in your claim that I don't disagree with
that we don't communicate as well or have as much
empathy as we used to. And one of the things,
and I believe you, one of the things I'm wondering about,
is what does that look like across ages. Like For example,
(03:06):
at my age, COVID was a very small percentage in
my lifetime, and I don't feel like it impacted me
very much, But thinking about somebody who was maybe in
high school or college during COVID could be a very
a very different thing. So what are you seeing there
or do you find it kind of equal across all ages?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
It's fairly equal.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I would even argue that a younger generation communicates at
a much better level than we think they do.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Gen Zers.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I have three of them in my house and they
are incredibly good at being thoughtful.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
All their barriers that we all have as we age.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Are kind of gone around gender, race, all these ideologies
that we adopt.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
They don't have those barriers.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
They tend to see people as people, so they have
they have less barriers.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, we have our habits and.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
If you even think about it now, like how quick
or how much time? And I'm not calling you out,
I'm saying humans in general, how much time do you
actually spend seeking on understanding of others versus arguing for
an opinion. So one of the things I did on
stage at an HR conference is I said, look, we're
going to do a test, and I had the I
had an AI model live tell. First, it built a
(04:13):
bias test for me to see where my unconscious biases were,
which was terrifying. And then after it did that, I said, Hey,
explain to me in a sentence why humans are so
bad at handling things like DEI or handling things like diversity.
And it came back and said, because humans tend to
seek to fight for their opinion or their or their
(04:33):
or being right over fighting for understanding. If you fought
harder to understand each other, you'd solve more problems.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And the whole room went dead silent. I believe that,
I think. So that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
The older we get, the more anchored we are to
our opinion, and we believe we're right as we age versus, Hey,
what is another option here? What's another opinion? And that's
what AI I think un locks.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
We're talking with Michem Hum who is founder of Hive
a Humanhive dot com is the website. And like I said, Jared,
and you're you're every bit as much of a nerd.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
As I am.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So if you want got questions at any point you
want to and you want to jump in, just go
for it. Uh you know, I want to. I want
to move a little more macro for a second. So
we talk a lot about AI and we tell Okay,
it's got this interaction issue and this prompt issue, But
I want to just take it a step bigger.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Why does it matter?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
And what I'm getting at is I think a lot
of people when they think of AI, the only thing
that comes to mind is kids using chat GPT to
cheat on a test or do their math homework. But
I don't think many people understand just how nearly ubiquitous
AI is now and how you how absolutely ubiquitous it
will be sooner than anybody thinks.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So can you just talk.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
About that a little, like, really, what is AI and
where is AI besides just chet GPT helping kids with schoolwork?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, so that's and schoolwork is only one part of it.
You can see it now in offices, so we'll see
it on teams. Let's just start with the with the
business professional side. A person using AI efficiently, effectively and
on point is hundreds of times more effective than their counterparts.
So if you have someone just refusing compare it like this.
If someone walked into an office tomorrow and said, hey,
(06:13):
just wanted you to know. They go into the governor's office,
I say, hey, Governor, I'm not going to use the
Internet today. I just don't feel comfortable with the Internet.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I refuse to use it.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
And by the way, I rode a horse to work
because I don't feel comfortable with cars. The entire office
would look like that person is kind of off kilter
a little bit, right. So if you think about it,
it's the same. It's like an accelerator tool. It's like
an expander of what you are capable of accomplishing as
a human being. So students cheating on it is just
because that's easy for them. But every study that's coming
(06:45):
out now is showing that students that use it consciously
are actually learning faster and retaining more. Harvard did a
study about this last year and this was still the
infancy of where we are. And in that study, one
hundred and ninety eight students split into two groups. The
group that could use AI as a coach with clear
direction from the professor learned and retained at twice the rate.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
So let me enter this here. So, look, I think
most people learn how to prompt through trial and error.
That's how I learned. Maybe through some coaching. You know,
they can test some of the services that you have
how to do this. Is there are we at the
point where there's curriculum around this. I mean Is there
something that we should be doing in tenth grade, should
be doing in sixth grade.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Let's assume the teachers also don't know. Is there some
professional development?
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Do we need to make sure that kids are getting
introduced towards effective use of AI in our schools where
they're traditional and other skills they'll.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Need in life.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, that's a great question. I totally agreed that that
is exactly what should be happening. In fact, kids need
to be learning right now those human skills that make
AI work better for them, things like empathy, things like
critical thinking. They need to learn the basics of life
while they're learning the effectiveness of the tools of AI. So,
for example, if they're going to co write a paper
with AI, they need to learn what's the logic behind this?
(07:57):
Why am I writing it this way? So there needs
to be a curriculum developed for students. We've been trying
to get this into different school districts around the state
that just ignore it.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
They're not ready.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
They say they're not ready to integrate it yet their
teachers are knowingly using AI to grade and to prepare
lesson plans, and their students.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Are using it. So there's a gap there.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Needs to be that lesson level academic approach, and part
of it is just learning how to talk to it
like a person, communicate it with a goal, and integrate
it into a learning path that also has all of
these other aspects of critical thinking.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Did that answer your question? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (08:34):
I would you like this like an assignment you kind
of mentioned write this paper with AI or have AIS
And is that own in its own kind of something
that we should be doing or should it be more
about how they incorporated into everything that they do.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
It's I think it's a little of both, but I
think what you said first is closer to what they
should be doing now. Because the student, when you have
a technology that you know the students are already using,
you're already behind. So you have to say to them, hey, look,
I know you're going to use it. Let me show
you how to use it right, so that you're learning
while you're using it. It will make you more effective.
(09:07):
But here's how we're going to coach to it. Here's
how I'm going to teach you to use it in
a way that's reflective.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So, for example, you might have.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
A math lesson in a high school, Let's say it's
tenth grade. And so you've got a tenth grade math lesson.
And I don't know any parent, by the way, in
my peer group that could probably solve a tenth grade
math problem right now. So it's embarrassing, but it's just factual.
We all learned that during COVID. So then what happens
is you take that student and you say, hey, look,
work on this math problem. Use AI to help you,
not to answer it, but to guide you on why
(09:35):
you don't understand it.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So the AI model, let's say it's shat GPT.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Can then pick up on how that student's communicating with
them and they can say, well, the AI can detect, oh,
I can tell this student's more visual than they are auditory.
So I'm going to I'm going to show them diagrams
and I'm going to draw it out. So they have
like a coach in their pocket. And that has to
come from an educator who says, here, how I want
you to use it, because the kid will take the
(10:02):
least path.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Of resistance, right, so they'll just go for it.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
On the other hand, if the teacher's demonstrating how, then
they're using it as a coaching tool.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And then if the teacher.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Comes back the next day and says, so.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
How did it go with AI? What did you learn?
What did you gain from it? They're having an interaction.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Now you're seeing the three things fused together, the teacher
of the student and the AI.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
So my younger kid in particular uses chat GPT as
a math coach and it's definitely helped him a lot.
And his math scores on tests and they're not tests
that AI is helping him with. He's going in the
class and taking the test in the classroom. His grades
on those have definitely gone up. What I wonder about,
kind of following up on the Governor's question, what I
(10:42):
wonder about is how do you make it so that
if kids are gonna use chat GPT or any AI anyway,
how do you make it so that they still learn? Right?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
If you're gonna say it's one thing to say when it.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Teaches you some math and then you go take a
math test, But do you see it the same way
with history?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
You see it the same way with english? He's right,
are you.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Gonna are you gonna let it quote unquote help a
kid write a history paper? And if so, are they
are they really learning? Are they really getting that information
into their skulls as well as they can.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
All the studies so far show they are if again,
coach properly. So for example, a history a history paper
is a great It's no different than someone in a
business who has to write something for the business with research.
A history paper can be as simple as I want
you to use AI first to research this topic, and
then I want you to write a draft, put it
into AI, and work together to come up with the
(11:39):
better solution.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
But you're teaching the student also.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
They should check and balance what AI is giving them
because sometimes still it doesn't It isn't always perfectly correct.
So they also need to learn that discernment that even
though we are going to depend on tech, how do
we know when tech is wrong?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Well, we don't know if we don't validate.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So teaching a student to validate, which by the way,
is now a great life lesson to learn how to
validate each other and things and information, teaching them how
to do that, teaching them how to research, teaching them
how to use AI, maybe as an accelerator on the tactical,
but they're working on the strategic still, how are they
going to frame this?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
And then having them present it out.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Having them talk about the topic, having them talk about
what they've learned.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
And this is when I go back to the human skill.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
One of the things I've had teachers at private schools
tells us what they're learning is they have to get
better at how they get one on one with students
on how they say to a student, Hey, that was
a great paper. Tell me your logic, Tell me what
you're thinking was, Tell me how you came up with that.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Tell me how you actually you even if you used AI,
what did you actually learn?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
And what they're learning is what they're seeing is that
by them getting better at that one on one approach,
they're learning that the students are actually thinking it through
and preparing for that dialogue.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
So they are retaining more because as.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
They're going through AI, they're learning more skill.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
So again, let's say you know you're using AI to
write a paper appropriately and it's a learning tool. Now
you're in a scenario where you're taking a test, you
have the blue book, there's no AI. It feels like
party yourself and your process is gone, Like, how can
you also do that kind of piece?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Oh my god, the whole AI thing isn't here? Did
it in fact.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Was it a crutch effectively or was it something that
can also prepare you to do it when you're not
connected to AI.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
So what we've learn now, I'm a heavy user, so
I'm the third nerd in the room, and I will
tell you that what it does on retention level is remarkable.
But it's because I have it constantly asking me things
for follow up, or I'll have it constantly testing me
on things. Now, I'm not taking tests like a student would.
But if a student is using it and saying, okay,
well I have a test tomorrow, walk through this with
(13:50):
me like it's the test.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I want to see how much of this I get right.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
The AI will instantaneously take whatever they've been talking about
now turn it into a test that they can then take,
and they're typing in the answers and being told if
they're right or wrong. My daughter wrote an essay coming
out of high school. Chat GPT was new. She's nineteen now.
When she was coming out of high school, she wrote
an essay. She put the essay into chat GPT. She said,
here's the rubric. Grade it at a college level, and
(14:17):
then tell me what I did wrong.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
If I want to get a higher grade.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
It's like, well, right now, you're going to get a
B plus if you change these three things. Now didn't
tell her what to write, it said what to change.
Here's what you need to change. You didn't have enough
information whatever, So she made those changes. She gets an
A and she tells her teacher what happens. Now, here's
the disappointing part. She tells her teacher. Her teacher says,
this is incredible. We're going back now right when AI
(14:40):
was new. Her teacher tells the class, this is an
incredible use case. It's ethical, it's the right thing, it's
the right way to do it. Within a day of
her sharing this with her with her colleagues, she's told
to stop saying that, stop teaching the students, that we're
not ready for that.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
And as a parent, I say, well, my kids advanced
because I've been teaching my child because I'm in this industry.
But how many kids are not getting the lesson? That's
a problem.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
All right, We have four minutes left and I want
to switch gears to another thing that I think also
is something the governor will care a lot about. We
hear a lot about how AI is going to kill
lots of jobs. And you know, I always think technology
will kill some jobs, but people just look at that
and they don't look at all these own incredible opportunities
will come around because of it. So how should we
(15:27):
think about these concepts like AI replaces jobs and things
that a governor would care about.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I think AI.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Does replace the jobs that the company is trying to replace.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
So this is what we've seen in technology in the past.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
However, companies that are smart that are letting people use AI,
they're finding that the people are getting the better results.
So will it replace certain things? Most likely there will
be some jobs. But on the flip side, you take
a person who walks into a job today and they
have the capability and the knowledge to use AI properly,
they just became incredibly more valuable.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Here's where AI misses the boat.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
So you'll hear a lot about AI agents sort of
being automated into oblivion.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You know, so just take all of our jobs. You'll
leaven hear CEOs.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
At the top levels of a tech company say, oh, yeah,
we're going to get.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Rid of all jobs in three years.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
And Microsoft just fired a bunch of people and I
think many of them were sort of mediocre coders who
are being replaced with AI.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah, I think the coding world is going to change,
for sure, But you're also talking about three percent of
a workforce of one hundred and fifteen thousand people, right,
so you have to look at that at scale. But
I think the other piece of this, this job problem
is what am I doing as an individual to empower
myself to be more valuable? Or am I just saying well,
my job's probably gone anyway, so why learn it.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's not the way to do it.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
You have to look at it like I want to
empower myself to be super valuable, which means I'm going
to use AI as an accelerator all the time and
you'll always discover new things. And the question is what's
the company's bottom line? What is it trying to do?
That's what you have to analyze. That's what a business owner.
You've been a business owner yourself, we all have, so
we're always analyzing that. But if I can take one
(17:09):
person and make them better, then I'm probably going to
get better output overall as a company.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
The other piece of this, though, that is critical.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The AI agents are very bad, very bad at being
actually human, so like customer service is a great example.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
They're saying, Oh, the AI.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Agents are going to remove custom they're going to take
over customer service. But are they? Because what's the first
thing we all do when we hit anybody who's had
a customer service hurdle, they're talking to an AI agent.
What's the first thing you start doing? Person, get me
a person, I need a person. I want to talk
to a person.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
The AI agent, as good as they are, it just
can't feel. It can't feel the emotion through the phone.
These are the skills. This other emotional skill is what
we harness that AI just cannot do.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
About one minute left, Jared, you got anything on the job?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Technological change always leads to changes in jobs, right, So
I mean when the automobiles came about, if you made
you know, horse and buggy whips, you were in good shape.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
But think of all the new jobs in cars.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
I mean there's a lot of new jobs associated with
the data centers, the hardware manufacturing directly, but also you know,
on the on the coding side of the algorithms. So
just there's a lot of happening there, including in places
like Colorado. Data centers are coming in, but this is
happening across the country. So you know, one would hope
if one has an optimistic view of technology, you know,
less mundane, mindless work and more kind of higher paying,
(18:27):
exciting jobs for people is what we hope this leads to.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, I think I think Colorado especially is poised for
something really big. I think we could be you know,
you have about ten years we were close, we had
a lot of tech here. I think we could actually
be in a position in the next three to five
years where Colorado could become a major tech center.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
We've got all the right parts.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
We've got a beautiful landscape, We've got a great state,
lots of sports teams, lots of really great places downtown.
I think we should start attracting more tech into Colorado,
especially into Denver, because I think we could actually spearhead
a lot of that innovation, a lot of that growth,
and a lot of that creativity which will actually create
those jobs you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
And some of that's clearly going on already. I mean,
Boulder is almost like another Silicon Valley. Jared knows better
than I do about that. All Right, we're gonna leave
it there. Mitch mitcham is founder of hive. The website
is a humanhive dot com. If you forget, it's linked
on my blog today at Roskiminski dot com.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
But that's a great place to go.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
If you want to learn more about AI or get
some consulting or training for your employees. A humanhive dot com.
Thanks again, mention another fabulous conversation.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah, thanks for having me and it's great to see
you Governor. Appreciate it all right,
I've got a couple friends in studio. Mitch mitcham is back.
He's the founder of Hive and you can find their
website at ahumanhive dot com. And it's basically, well, i'll
call it, sort of elite AI consulting.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
AI enablement consulting, training.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
And Mitch was on a couple months ago, and I
thought it was such an interesting conversation, and not just
the nerdy side. I'm a nerd and I love the nerdy,
sort of in the weeds technological side, but mostly what
we're going to talk about today is actually the applicability
of AI to real world problems, solving problems, business use, education,
all this stuff. And another friend of mine showed up
(00:39):
a little bit early. He's going to be on the show,
you know, talking about his own stuff in half an hour.
But Governor Poulis is in studio with us and might
jump into the conversation, so Jared, at any point if
you want to ask a question or jump in, you
can just start talking or wave at me or whatever
you want to do.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So Hello, and thanks for being here. Excited to hear
about AI. This should be fun.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Mitch, I'm honored to be here. Thanks for being in
the room.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So you and I and the governor were talking before
we went on the air about AI literacy, and you
were talking about human skills literacy and how those two relate.
So can you describe that a little bit in language
everybody can understand.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, in simple terms.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Over the last probably ten years, but especially since COVID,
we've lost our human ability for empathy, connection, true community building.
You can see it all across You see it in government,
you can see it in schools, you see it just
in how we treat each other. We've lost this human
edge to us, our human elements. So we're not very
good I would argue right now at communicating in a
(01:39):
long way or having a debate or talking about complex issues,
which is what we were talking about in the room earlier.
Humans have lost these abilities. Instead, now we're super reactive.
We communicate in one hundred and forty characters or less.
We don't really put thought or consciousness or any kind
of skill into how we interact with each other. On
(02:00):
the other hand, AI tools have been developed to be
incredibly almost like the best type of human imaginable. They're
very empathetic, they always want the best outcome, they're trying
to really hear you and understand you. They're trying to
communicate with you in a full way so they get
your result with you. I mean, imagine if humans operated
at that optimal level would actually be solving problems, we
(02:21):
would listening to each other. So that's what we've discovered,
and we've delivered this now for about thirty five thousand
client professionals across different industries everywhere from the Rockies all
the way through baseball, basketball and corporations like Microsoft. So
what we see though, at the human level, people who
learn the tool get better at being human, not just
(02:44):
at using the tool.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
All right, and let me ask you, just keep your
mouth close to the microphone. Sure, And so I'm very
interested first in your claim that I don't disagree with
that we don't communicate as well or have as much
empathy as we used to. And one of the things,
and I believe you, one of the things I'm wondering about,
is what does that look like across ages. Like For example,
(03:06):
at my age, COVID was a very small percentage in
my lifetime, and I don't feel like it impacted me
very much, But thinking about somebody who was maybe in
high school or college during COVID could be a very
a very different thing. So what are you seeing there
or do you find it kind of equal across all ages?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
It's fairly equal.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I would even argue that a younger generation communicates at
a much better level than we think they do.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Gen Zers.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I have three of them in my house and they
are incredibly good at being thoughtful.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
All their barriers that we all have as we age.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Are kind of gone around gender, race, all these ideologies
that we adopt.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
They don't have those barriers.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
They tend to see people as people, so they have
they have less barriers.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, we have our habits and.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
If you even think about it now, like how quick
or how much time? And I'm not calling you out,
I'm saying humans in general, how much time do you
actually spend seeking on understanding of others versus arguing for
an opinion. So one of the things I did on
stage at an HR conference is I said, look, we're
going to do a test, and I had the I
had an AI model live tell. First, it built a
(04:13):
bias test for me to see where my unconscious biases were,
which was terrifying. And then after it did that, I said, Hey,
explain to me in a sentence why humans are so
bad at handling things like DEI or handling things like diversity.
And it came back and said, because humans tend to
seek to fight for their opinion or their or their
(04:33):
or being right over fighting for understanding. If you fought
harder to understand each other, you'd solve more problems.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And the whole room went dead silent. I believe that,
I think. So that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
The older we get, the more anchored we are to
our opinion, and we believe we're right as we age versus, Hey,
what is another option here? What's another opinion? And that's
what AI I think un locks.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
We're talking with Michem Hum who is founder of Hive
a Humanhive dot com is the website. And like I said, Jared,
and you're you're every bit as much of a nerd.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
As I am.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So if you want got questions at any point you
want to and you want to jump in, just go
for it. Uh you know, I want to. I want
to move a little more macro for a second. So
we talk a lot about AI and we tell Okay,
it's got this interaction issue and this prompt issue, But
I want to just take it a step bigger.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Why does it matter?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
And what I'm getting at is I think a lot
of people when they think of AI, the only thing
that comes to mind is kids using chat GPT to
cheat on a test or do their math homework. But
I don't think many people understand just how nearly ubiquitous
AI is now and how you how absolutely ubiquitous it
will be sooner than anybody thinks.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So can you just talk.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
About that a little, like, really, what is AI and
where is AI besides just chet GPT helping kids with schoolwork?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, so that's and schoolwork is only one part of it.
You can see it now in offices, so we'll see
it on teams. Let's just start with the with the
business professional side. A person using AI efficiently, effectively and
on point is hundreds of times more effective than their counterparts.
So if you have someone just refusing compare it like this.
If someone walked into an office tomorrow and said, hey,
(06:13):
just wanted you to know. They go into the governor's office,
I say, hey, Governor, I'm not going to use the
Internet today. I just don't feel comfortable with the Internet.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I refuse to use it.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
And by the way, I rode a horse to work
because I don't feel comfortable with cars. The entire office
would look like that person is kind of off kilter
a little bit, right. So if you think about it,
it's the same. It's like an accelerator tool. It's like
an expander of what you are capable of accomplishing as
a human being. So students cheating on it is just
because that's easy for them. But every study that's coming
(06:45):
out now is showing that students that use it consciously
are actually learning faster and retaining more. Harvard did a
study about this last year and this was still the
infancy of where we are. And in that study, one
hundred and ninety eight students split into two groups. The
group that could use AI as a coach with clear
direction from the professor learned and retained at twice the rate.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
So let me enter this here. So, look, I think
most people learn how to prompt through trial and error.
That's how I learned. Maybe through some coaching. You know,
they can test some of the services that you have
how to do this. Is there are we at the
point where there's curriculum around this. I mean Is there
something that we should be doing in tenth grade, should
be doing in sixth grade.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Let's assume the teachers also don't know. Is there some
professional development?
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Do we need to make sure that kids are getting
introduced towards effective use of AI in our schools where
they're traditional and other skills they'll.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Need in life.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, that's a great question. I totally agreed that that
is exactly what should be happening. In fact, kids need
to be learning right now those human skills that make
AI work better for them, things like empathy, things like
critical thinking. They need to learn the basics of life
while they're learning the effectiveness of the tools of AI. So,
for example, if they're going to co write a paper
with AI, they need to learn what's the logic behind this?
(07:57):
Why am I writing it this way? So there needs
to be a curriculum developed for students. We've been trying
to get this into different school districts around the state
that just ignore it.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
They're not ready.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
They say they're not ready to integrate it yet their
teachers are knowingly using AI to grade and to prepare
lesson plans, and their students.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Are using it. So there's a gap there.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Needs to be that lesson level academic approach, and part
of it is just learning how to talk to it
like a person, communicate it with a goal, and integrate
it into a learning path that also has all of
these other aspects of critical thinking.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Did that answer your question? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (08:34):
I would you like this like an assignment you kind
of mentioned write this paper with AI or have AIS
And is that own in its own kind of something
that we should be doing or should it be more
about how they incorporated into everything that they do.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
It's I think it's a little of both, but I
think what you said first is closer to what they
should be doing now. Because the student, when you have
a technology that you know the students are already using,
you're already behind. So you have to say to them, hey, look,
I know you're going to use it. Let me show
you how to use it right, so that you're learning
while you're using it. It will make you more effective.
(09:07):
But here's how we're going to coach to it. Here's
how I'm going to teach you to use it in
a way that's reflective.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So, for example, you might have.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
A math lesson in a high school, Let's say it's
tenth grade. And so you've got a tenth grade math lesson.
And I don't know any parent, by the way, in
my peer group that could probably solve a tenth grade
math problem right now. So it's embarrassing, but it's just factual.
We all learned that during COVID. So then what happens
is you take that student and you say, hey, look,
work on this math problem. Use AI to help you,
not to answer it, but to guide you on why
(09:35):
you don't understand it.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So the AI model, let's say it's shat GPT.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Can then pick up on how that student's communicating with
them and they can say, well, the AI can detect, oh,
I can tell this student's more visual than they are auditory.
So I'm going to I'm going to show them diagrams
and I'm going to draw it out. So they have
like a coach in their pocket. And that has to
come from an educator who says, here, how I want
you to use it, because the kid will take the
(10:02):
least path.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Of resistance, right, so they'll just go for it.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
On the other hand, if the teacher's demonstrating how, then
they're using it as a coaching tool.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And then if the teacher.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Comes back the next day and says, so.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
How did it go with AI? What did you learn?
What did you gain from it? They're having an interaction.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Now you're seeing the three things fused together, the teacher
of the student and the AI.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
So my younger kid in particular uses chat GPT as
a math coach and it's definitely helped him a lot.
And his math scores on tests and they're not tests
that AI is helping him with. He's going in the
class and taking the test in the classroom. His grades
on those have definitely gone up. What I wonder about,
kind of following up on the Governor's question, what I
(10:42):
wonder about is how do you make it so that
if kids are gonna use chat GPT or any AI anyway,
how do you make it so that they still learn? Right?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
If you're gonna say it's one thing to say when it.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Teaches you some math and then you go take a
math test, But do you see it the same way
with history?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
You see it the same way with english? He's right,
are you.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Gonna are you gonna let it quote unquote help a
kid write a history paper? And if so, are they
are they really learning? Are they really getting that information
into their skulls as well as they can.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
All the studies so far show they are if again,
coach properly. So for example, a history a history paper
is a great It's no different than someone in a
business who has to write something for the business with research.
A history paper can be as simple as I want
you to use AI first to research this topic, and
then I want you to write a draft, put it
into AI, and work together to come up with the
(11:39):
better solution.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
But you're teaching the student also.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
They should check and balance what AI is giving them
because sometimes still it doesn't It isn't always perfectly correct.
So they also need to learn that discernment that even
though we are going to depend on tech, how do
we know when tech is wrong?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Well, we don't know if we don't validate.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So teaching a student to validate, which by the way,
is now a great life lesson to learn how to
validate each other and things and information, teaching them how
to do that, teaching them how to research, teaching them
how to use AI, maybe as an accelerator on the tactical,
but they're working on the strategic still, how are they
going to frame this?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
And then having them present it out.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Having them talk about the topic, having them talk about
what they've learned.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
And this is when I go back to the human skill.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
One of the things I've had teachers at private schools
tells us what they're learning is they have to get
better at how they get one on one with students
on how they say to a student, Hey, that was
a great paper. Tell me your logic, Tell me what
you're thinking was, Tell me how you came up with that.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Tell me how you actually you even if you used AI,
what did you actually learn?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
And what they're learning is what they're seeing is that
by them getting better at that one on one approach,
they're learning that the students are actually thinking it through
and preparing for that dialogue.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
So they are retaining more because as.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
They're going through AI, they're learning more skill.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
So again, let's say you know you're using AI to
write a paper appropriately and it's a learning tool. Now
you're in a scenario where you're taking a test, you
have the blue book, there's no AI. It feels like
party yourself and your process is gone, Like, how can
you also do that kind of piece?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Oh my god, the whole AI thing isn't here? Did
it in fact.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Was it a crutch effectively or was it something that
can also prepare you to do it when you're not
connected to AI.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
So what we've learn now, I'm a heavy user, so
I'm the third nerd in the room, and I will
tell you that what it does on retention level is remarkable.
But it's because I have it constantly asking me things
for follow up, or I'll have it constantly testing me
on things. Now, I'm not taking tests like a student would.
But if a student is using it and saying, okay,
well I have a test tomorrow, walk through this with
(13:50):
me like it's the test.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I want to see how much of this I get right.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
The AI will instantaneously take whatever they've been talking about
now turn it into a test that they can then take,
and they're typing in the answers and being told if
they're right or wrong. My daughter wrote an essay coming
out of high school. Chat GPT was new. She's nineteen now.
When she was coming out of high school, she wrote
an essay. She put the essay into chat GPT. She said,
here's the rubric. Grade it at a college level, and
(14:17):
then tell me what I did wrong.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
If I want to get a higher grade.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
It's like, well, right now, you're going to get a
B plus if you change these three things. Now didn't
tell her what to write, it said what to change.
Here's what you need to change. You didn't have enough
information whatever, So she made those changes. She gets an
A and she tells her teacher what happens. Now, here's
the disappointing part. She tells her teacher. Her teacher says,
this is incredible. We're going back now right when AI
(14:40):
was new. Her teacher tells the class, this is an
incredible use case. It's ethical, it's the right thing, it's
the right way to do it. Within a day of
her sharing this with her with her colleagues, she's told
to stop saying that, stop teaching the students, that we're
not ready for that.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
And as a parent, I say, well, my kids advanced
because I've been teaching my child because I'm in this industry.
But how many kids are not getting the lesson? That's
a problem.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
All right, We have four minutes left and I want
to switch gears to another thing that I think also
is something the governor will care a lot about. We
hear a lot about how AI is going to kill
lots of jobs. And you know, I always think technology
will kill some jobs, but people just look at that
and they don't look at all these own incredible opportunities
will come around because of it. So how should we
(15:27):
think about these concepts like AI replaces jobs and things
that a governor would care about.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I think AI.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Does replace the jobs that the company is trying to replace.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
So this is what we've seen in technology in the past.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
However, companies that are smart that are letting people use AI,
they're finding that the people are getting the better results.
So will it replace certain things? Most likely there will
be some jobs. But on the flip side, you take
a person who walks into a job today and they
have the capability and the knowledge to use AI properly,
they just became incredibly more valuable.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Here's where AI misses the boat.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
So you'll hear a lot about AI agents sort of
being automated into oblivion.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You know, so just take all of our jobs. You'll
leaven hear CEOs.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
At the top levels of a tech company say, oh, yeah,
we're going to get.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Rid of all jobs in three years.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
And Microsoft just fired a bunch of people and I
think many of them were sort of mediocre coders who
are being replaced with AI.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah, I think the coding world is going to change,
for sure, But you're also talking about three percent of
a workforce of one hundred and fifteen thousand people, right,
so you have to look at that at scale. But
I think the other piece of this, this job problem
is what am I doing as an individual to empower
myself to be more valuable? Or am I just saying well,
my job's probably gone anyway, so why learn it.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's not the way to do it.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
You have to look at it like I want to
empower myself to be super valuable, which means I'm going
to use AI as an accelerator all the time and
you'll always discover new things. And the question is what's
the company's bottom line? What is it trying to do?
That's what you have to analyze. That's what a business owner.
You've been a business owner yourself, we all have, so
we're always analyzing that. But if I can take one
(17:09):
person and make them better, then I'm probably going to
get better output overall as a company.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
The other piece of this, though, that is critical.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The AI agents are very bad, very bad at being
actually human, so like customer service is a great example.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
They're saying, Oh, the AI.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Agents are going to remove custom they're going to take
over customer service. But are they? Because what's the first
thing we all do when we hit anybody who's had
a customer service hurdle, they're talking to an AI agent.
What's the first thing you start doing? Person, get me
a person, I need a person. I want to talk
to a person.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
The AI agent, as good as they are, it just
can't feel. It can't feel the emotion through the phone.
These are the skills. This other emotional skill is what
we harness that AI just cannot do.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
About one minute left, Jared, you got anything on the job?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Technological change always leads to changes in jobs, right, So
I mean when the automobiles came about, if you made
you know, horse and buggy whips, you were in good shape.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
But think of all the new jobs in cars.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
I mean there's a lot of new jobs associated with
the data centers, the hardware manufacturing directly, but also you know,
on the on the coding side of the algorithms. So
just there's a lot of happening there, including in places
like Colorado. Data centers are coming in, but this is
happening across the country. So you know, one would hope
if one has an optimistic view of technology, you know,
less mundane, mindless work and more kind of higher paying,
(18:27):
exciting jobs for people is what we hope this leads to.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, I think I think Colorado especially is poised for
something really big. I think we could be you know,
you have about ten years we were close, we had
a lot of tech here. I think we could actually
be in a position in the next three to five
years where Colorado could become a major tech center.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
We've got all the right parts.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
We've got a beautiful landscape, We've got a great state,
lots of sports teams, lots of really great places downtown.
I think we should start attracting more tech into Colorado,
especially into Denver, because I think we could actually spearhead
a lot of that innovation, a lot of that growth,
and a lot of that creativity which will actually create
those jobs you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
And some of that's clearly going on already. I mean,
Boulder is almost like another Silicon Valley. Jared knows better
than I do about that. All Right, we're gonna leave
it there. Mitch mitcham is founder of hive. The website
is a humanhive dot com. If you forget, it's linked
on my blog today at Roskiminski dot com.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
But that's a great place to go.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
If you want to learn more about AI or get
some consulting or training for your employees. A humanhive dot com.
Thanks again, mention another fabulous conversation.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah, thanks for having me and it's great to see
you Governor. Appreciate it all right,
The Ross Kaminsky Show News
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