June 18, 2025 • 9 mins
John Kellner is currently a Criminal Justice Fellow at the Common Sense Institute and joins us to talk about their report, released today, on Colorado’s fentanyl issues. (Hint: improving but not as much as we'd like and still below average for the country.)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's not exactly a secret that fentanyl has been a
(00:02):
scourge of the United States and a scourge here in
Colorado for quite a few years now, got quite a
bit worse during the years of the Joe Biden Open Border.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
But how are things going now?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
My friends at the Common Sense Institute, where I am
a free market fellow as well, have some great crime researchers,
and one of them is my friend John Kellner, who
was until recently the eighteenth Judicial District DA. He's a
lieutenant colonel in the Army Reserves. He currently works with
(00:39):
Dan Kaplis's law firm, and he and Mitch Morrissey and
a really smart dude at Common Sense Institute named Stephen
Byers have put together a report that was just released
in the last few hours entitled Colorado's Fentanyl Problem and
the Economic Costs, and you can find that at the
Common Sense Institute's website common Since Institute US dot org.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
John, welcome back to Kowa. It's good to talk to you.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Hey, Ross, thanks for having me on. One small correction
to that introduction, I'm a lieutenant colonel in the United
States Marines.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Oh my gosh, I'll get back.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
To my good friends that's in the Army in their
two innard fiftyth birthday.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
But that's an unforgivable error, I have to say. I'd
say that's one of the biggest errors I've ever made.
I apologize for that. So uh, and I had lived
on Camp Pendleton. I love the Marines. Okay, So what
do we need to know about what's going on in
Colorado with fentanyl right now? Is there something that we
should be hopeful about after so many years of just
(01:41):
bad news?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah, I would say there is hope on the horizon,
but still quite a bit of work to do. And so,
as you mentioned about the Common Sense Institute, you know,
we are interested in evaluating the policies things that are
being implemented at the local and state level throughout college
rto to determine what's working and what is the cost
(02:04):
ultimately to the people in Colorado. And so, you know,
when I started out as the district attorney, obviously we
were dealing with a tremendous influx of fentanyl in that
twenty twenty to twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four range.
And you know, in twenty twenty one, you really would
(02:24):
struggle to open up your your news app or newspaper
and not see something in the headline on a weekly
basis about another fentanyl overdose death, you know, tragic poisoning,
you know, perhaps a juvenile somebody who ingested ventyl didn't
know it was there. Right, So, fortunately, the legislature took
some steps in twenty twenty two passed the law that
(02:47):
strengthened some of the penalties associated with fentanyl. So it
was a bit of a reversal, as you may recall,
because a few years earlier, they had decriminalized the possession
of you know, you know, really minute amounts of fentanyl
and made it a misdemeanor and also other drugs, and
that really coincided with it all of a sudden, a
(03:08):
big influx into our community resulting in a tremendous amount
of overdose deaths. They tightened up that law in twenty
twenty two, and we're starting to see some of the
benefits from that. And so, you know, overview here is
we still have a tremendous number of deaths associated fentanyl
in the state of Colorado, but we've seen about a
thirty percent reduction year over year from twenty twenty three
(03:29):
to twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Can you put that in actual numbers for me, like
how many deaths rather than percentages?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, so, oney, one hundred and eighty four deaths from
fentanyl through twenty twenty three, and it's eight hundred and
one through twenty twenty four, so it's about a thirty
two percent protection and that's great news. The problem is
that as compared to other states and common sentence do
(03:57):
created a competitiveness index really looking at, okay, how are
we doing in relation to other states in their approaches
to the sentinel epidemic, and unfortunately we're lagging in the
state of Colorado. We're thirtieth in the country on that metric,
meaning that we're not making as much progress as some
(04:17):
of our surrounding states and other states throughout the country.
So we make some a variety of recommendations saying, look,
we can't keep the eye off the ball here. There's
been some good done on a policy level, but we
do recommend continuing to strengthen those penalties associated with the
possession of fentanyl, making possession of any amount of fentanyl
(04:39):
a low level felony offense, and what that does. As
a former prosecutor, I can tell you is it really
opens up the aperture of potential resources to get people
into treatment, into rehabilitation, provides some measure of accountability.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
In other words, are you saying, if the crime that
could be charged were demeanor, you really have no leverage
over the kind of person who'd be selling fentanyl. But
if it's a felony with potential serious or buying fentyl,
if it's a felony with potential serious ramifications, you could say,
all right, you won't go to jail if you go
to treatment, where you wouldn't have that leverage with a misdemeanor.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Is that the point you're making.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
That's exactly right, and it's not just you won't go
to jail, and you know you're you know, in our
state we don't typically start with jail with a lot
of offenses, to include drug possession. We want to incentivize
people to get into treatment, be productive members of society,
kick whatever habit. It is, help deal with an underlying issue.
You know, when we used to be able to charge
(05:37):
that low level felony offense, it came with some more
restrictions and the leverage of saying, look, you can avoid
this felony. All you gotta do, is you know, work
with us on treatment. Okay, we recommend.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Go ahead, finish your sentence.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
I was just going to say, we recommend, you know,
going back to the pre twenty nineteen framework of life
laws that made possession of any amount of fentanyl and
any amount of other drugs like you know, heroin, math,
cocaine that low level felony offense. Because one thing you'll
find with these spentyl related deaths is that they generally
coincide with the use of other substances too.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Okay, So two two quick questions for you, one of
them more serious than the other, and I'll let you
decide which one is the more serious question.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I'll start with this one.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
If you're if you get involved with drafting a bill
saying possession of any amount of certain substances should come
with some penalty or particular level of crime, can you
please include blue cheese among those substances.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, I'd vote for that.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Okay, good Now, the other question I have for you,
and I only have about a minute here, and you
may object along the lines of calls for speculation, your honor,
but I'm going to ask you anyway, how much of
the decline in fentanyl use in fentyl deaths in Colorado?
Do you attribute to the change in the law that
makes it a tougher punishment again or felony versus closing
(07:08):
the border? And I wish I realized is is a
more recent thing, although laid in the Biden administration, they
started doing a little more border enforcement.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
How do you see those things interacting?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
You know, a report we actually do talk about that.
We see that as coinciding with this tremendous reduction in
overdose death is the reduction in the free flow of
fentanyl across the southern border. With more enforcement, now we're
seeing actually reduction in seizures at the southern border because
there's also a reduction in the number of people trying
to make their way across the border. I see that
(07:43):
as a great success. And honestly, just going back to
twenty twenty one, as a new district attorney, I remember
holding up a rifle that we seized along with hand
grenade to several other guns from a drug traffic organization
that was working with fentanyl and saying, what really needed
to happen was more federal enforcement at that southern border
(08:05):
to help clamp down on that just free flow that
we were seeing. So I think that there's been tremendous
progress made. How much is attributed to the change of
the law in the state of Colorado, how much is
attributed to more enforcement at the southern border. I think
we'll have to wait and see how that plays out
a little bit longer before I can give you a
firm answer. But another part of this about the law
(08:26):
that was good is it did include access to testing strips,
access to unlock zone and things that are helping to
prevent more overdoses. That obviously needs to continue as well.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
John Kilner is a Criminal Justice Fellow at the Common
Sense Institute Commonsense Institute US dot org. If you can't
remember that, just go search common Sense Institute and the
brand new report just released this morning, Colorado's Fentanyl problem
and the economic costs. John, thanks for your time this morning,
very interesting report, and I hope that the better trend
(08:58):
continues for our state.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Thanks so much for us
It's not exactly a secret that fentanyl has been a
(00:02):
scourge of the United States and a scourge here in
Colorado for quite a few years now, got quite a
bit worse during the years of the Joe Biden Open Border.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
But how are things going now?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
My friends at the Common Sense Institute, where I am
a free market fellow as well, have some great crime researchers,
and one of them is my friend John Kellner, who
was until recently the eighteenth Judicial District DA. He's a
lieutenant colonel in the Army Reserves. He currently works with
(00:39):
Dan Kaplis's law firm, and he and Mitch Morrissey and
a really smart dude at Common Sense Institute named Stephen
Byers have put together a report that was just released
in the last few hours entitled Colorado's Fentanyl Problem and
the Economic Costs, and you can find that at the
Common Sense Institute's website common Since Institute US dot org.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
John, welcome back to Kowa. It's good to talk to you.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Hey, Ross, thanks for having me on. One small correction
to that introduction, I'm a lieutenant colonel in the United
States Marines.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Oh my gosh, I'll get back.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
To my good friends that's in the Army in their
two innard fiftyth birthday.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
But that's an unforgivable error, I have to say. I'd
say that's one of the biggest errors I've ever made.
I apologize for that. So uh, and I had lived
on Camp Pendleton. I love the Marines. Okay, So what
do we need to know about what's going on in
Colorado with fentanyl right now? Is there something that we
should be hopeful about after so many years of just
(01:41):
bad news?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah, I would say there is hope on the horizon,
but still quite a bit of work to do. And so,
as you mentioned about the Common Sense Institute, you know,
we are interested in evaluating the policies things that are
being implemented at the local and state level throughout college
rto to determine what's working and what is the cost
(02:04):
ultimately to the people in Colorado. And so, you know,
when I started out as the district attorney, obviously we
were dealing with a tremendous influx of fentanyl in that
twenty twenty to twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four range.
And you know, in twenty twenty one, you really would
(02:24):
struggle to open up your your news app or newspaper
and not see something in the headline on a weekly
basis about another fentanyl overdose death, you know, tragic poisoning,
you know, perhaps a juvenile somebody who ingested ventyl didn't
know it was there. Right, So, fortunately, the legislature took
some steps in twenty twenty two passed the law that
(02:47):
strengthened some of the penalties associated with fentanyl. So it
was a bit of a reversal, as you may recall,
because a few years earlier, they had decriminalized the possession
of you know, you know, really minute amounts of fentanyl
and made it a misdemeanor and also other drugs, and
that really coincided with it all of a sudden, a
(03:08):
big influx into our community resulting in a tremendous amount
of overdose deaths. They tightened up that law in twenty
twenty two, and we're starting to see some of the
benefits from that. And so, you know, overview here is
we still have a tremendous number of deaths associated fentanyl
in the state of Colorado, but we've seen about a
thirty percent reduction year over year from twenty twenty three
(03:29):
to twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Can you put that in actual numbers for me, like
how many deaths rather than percentages?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, so, oney, one hundred and eighty four deaths from
fentanyl through twenty twenty three, and it's eight hundred and
one through twenty twenty four, so it's about a thirty
two percent protection and that's great news. The problem is
that as compared to other states and common sentence do
(03:57):
created a competitiveness index really looking at, okay, how are
we doing in relation to other states in their approaches
to the sentinel epidemic, and unfortunately we're lagging in the
state of Colorado. We're thirtieth in the country on that metric,
meaning that we're not making as much progress as some
(04:17):
of our surrounding states and other states throughout the country.
So we make some a variety of recommendations saying, look,
we can't keep the eye off the ball here. There's
been some good done on a policy level, but we
do recommend continuing to strengthen those penalties associated with the
possession of fentanyl, making possession of any amount of fentanyl
(04:39):
a low level felony offense, and what that does. As
a former prosecutor, I can tell you is it really
opens up the aperture of potential resources to get people
into treatment, into rehabilitation, provides some measure of accountability.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
In other words, are you saying, if the crime that
could be charged were demeanor, you really have no leverage
over the kind of person who'd be selling fentanyl. But
if it's a felony with potential serious or buying fentyl,
if it's a felony with potential serious ramifications, you could say,
all right, you won't go to jail if you go
to treatment, where you wouldn't have that leverage with a misdemeanor.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Is that the point you're making.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
That's exactly right, and it's not just you won't go
to jail, and you know you're you know, in our
state we don't typically start with jail with a lot
of offenses, to include drug possession. We want to incentivize
people to get into treatment, be productive members of society,
kick whatever habit. It is, help deal with an underlying issue.
You know, when we used to be able to charge
(05:37):
that low level felony offense, it came with some more
restrictions and the leverage of saying, look, you can avoid
this felony. All you gotta do, is you know, work
with us on treatment. Okay, we recommend.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Go ahead, finish your sentence.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
I was just going to say, we recommend, you know,
going back to the pre twenty nineteen framework of life
laws that made possession of any amount of fentanyl and
any amount of other drugs like you know, heroin, math,
cocaine that low level felony offense. Because one thing you'll
find with these spentyl related deaths is that they generally
coincide with the use of other substances too.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Okay, So two two quick questions for you, one of
them more serious than the other, and I'll let you
decide which one is the more serious question.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I'll start with this one.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
If you're if you get involved with drafting a bill
saying possession of any amount of certain substances should come
with some penalty or particular level of crime, can you
please include blue cheese among those substances.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, I'd vote for that.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Okay, good Now, the other question I have for you,
and I only have about a minute here, and you
may object along the lines of calls for speculation, your honor,
but I'm going to ask you anyway, how much of
the decline in fentanyl use in fentyl deaths in Colorado?
Do you attribute to the change in the law that
makes it a tougher punishment again or felony versus closing
(07:08):
the border? And I wish I realized is is a
more recent thing, although laid in the Biden administration, they
started doing a little more border enforcement.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
How do you see those things interacting?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
You know, a report we actually do talk about that.
We see that as coinciding with this tremendous reduction in
overdose death is the reduction in the free flow of
fentanyl across the southern border. With more enforcement, now we're
seeing actually reduction in seizures at the southern border because
there's also a reduction in the number of people trying
to make their way across the border. I see that
(07:43):
as a great success. And honestly, just going back to
twenty twenty one, as a new district attorney, I remember
holding up a rifle that we seized along with hand
grenade to several other guns from a drug traffic organization
that was working with fentanyl and saying, what really needed
to happen was more federal enforcement at that southern border
(08:05):
to help clamp down on that just free flow that
we were seeing. So I think that there's been tremendous
progress made. How much is attributed to the change of
the law in the state of Colorado, how much is
attributed to more enforcement at the southern border. I think
we'll have to wait and see how that plays out
a little bit longer before I can give you a
firm answer. But another part of this about the law
(08:26):
that was good is it did include access to testing strips,
access to unlock zone and things that are helping to
prevent more overdoses. That obviously needs to continue as well.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
John Kilner is a Criminal Justice Fellow at the Common
Sense Institute Commonsense Institute US dot org. If you can't
remember that, just go search common Sense Institute and the
brand new report just released this morning, Colorado's Fentanyl problem
and the economic costs. John, thanks for your time this morning,
very interesting report, and I hope that the better trend
(08:58):
continues for our state.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Thanks so much for us
The Ross Kaminsky Show News
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