Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My good friend Robert Bryce, one of the world's true
leading experts on electricity generation, power grids, and so on.
Author of many books on the subjects as well. He
travels the world speaking about these issues, and he has
a fantastic substack that everybody should subscribe to at Robert Bryce.
That's Bryce dot substack dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Go check it out now.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I just got yesterday a note from Robert entitled the
Big Beautiful Bill Torpedoes, Big Solar and Big Wind, and
I have to say just the headline put a big
smile on my face. I'm one of these people who,
like Robert, has had a lot of well questions and
criticisms for many years about all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So Robert, welcome back to the show. It's good to
have you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Always a pleasure, Russ.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
It's funny you start your.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Note by talking about ten predictions that you made, and
it seems like one of them might not come true.
And it's one you and I both would have wanted
to not come true. What was the prediction and what
seems to be happening.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Well, okay, so first my crystal ball is broken. Now
it's officially broken. I think I may quit predicting anything
ever again. But last November, I wrote a piece right
before the election saying here ten predictions, can't miss predictions
for the election, and one of them was that Trump
would not be able to repeal the energy subsidies in
the Inflation Reduction Act.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
And I just you know, went off of what was
kind of I.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Guess conventional wisdom because I adopted it last November, which
was that big business, you know, once they get their
snout in the trough, it's going to be very difficult
to get them out. And there that was the the
you know, the feeling at that time was that now
big business, you know, because of all the subsidies that
were going to wind and solar, that Trump wouldn't have
(01:46):
the political will or political might to be able to
repeal the alternative energy subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act
of twenty twenty two. But the latest version of the
Senate bill, in fact, is even more restrictive. In the
House version of this reconciliation package is the One Big
Beautiful Bill Act.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
And if this.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Bill becomes law, storren Win take it into shorts. I mean,
their projects will have to be in service by twenty
twenty seven or they get no federal subsidies under the
PTC or the ITC, and in fact it also enacts
at tax if they can't prove they don't have a
lot of Chinese content in their equipment. So it's very
(02:25):
welcome news, and I just think it's fantastic. As I
said in my piece, great news for taxpayers, great news
for wildlife, and great news for rural Americans who've been
fighting the encroachment of these stupid wind and solar and
high builtage transmission projects.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I'm very pleased about this too.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
There is a Republican congressman in Colorado who I like
a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
His name is Jeff Hurd.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I supported him aggressively during the campaign, and I still
like him a lot. But he's one of these Republicans
who have been complaining a little bit about this. It's like,
if he were in Congress when this first came up,
he would have voted against the Inflation Reduction Act, basically
a watered down.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Green New Deal.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
But now that the money is flowing and he's got
a huge rural district right that has a lot, potentially
a lot of this stuff, he hasn't said he's going
to vote against the bill because of it. But he's
been complaining, and I think there's quite a few Republicans
who are trying to decide whether they'd be willing to
vote against the bill if it means taking on Trump.
But there are squishy Republicans who, now that the money
(03:27):
is flowing, would like to see it keep flowing or
the flow slow down, but not turn off. So that's
probably some of what you were thinking about.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah, well, at that time, remember there were I think
eighteen or twenty House Republicans sent a letter it was
last August saying they don't want these things to be repealed,
these massive subsidies to be repealed because some of them,
like in New York, they had you know, factories that
were being built in their districts, et cetera. But from
what my reporting, annoying friends who you know, have talked
(03:58):
with top legislators on Capitol Hill, especially on the Senate side,
this was the issue that especially Senator Mike Lee from
Utah said, I am not going to support any of
this stuff, and the president wants to get rid of it,
I'm fully on board. And so there was a previous
version of the Senate bill that included a carve out
for Philip Anschutz's big win project in Wyoming that lasted
(04:21):
for a few days. But in the in the latest version,
that little exception that would have meant about three hundred
million dollars a year to Ans' project was taken out. So,
as Lily Tomlin said, no matter how cynical I get,
I can't keep up. But this bill has in fact
gotten better. And you know, we need to get rid
of these solar and win subsidies. If these guys, if
(04:42):
these characters are solar and winded, they keep saying, oh,
it's cheaper, it's cheaper, will then improve it, by God,
prove it without government money, without taking taxpayer money. Prove
your stuff is cheaper, and then let the market decide
instead of getting all this favoritism and comb on the scale.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, and I don't need to spend long on this part,
but it was interesting to read the name Phil Anshoots,
who is the richest man in the state that I
live in, and a highly respected guy. And I have
to say, and you probably feel it just the same
way I do.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Actually, let me tell you a personal story.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
So two houses in a row, I put solar panels
on them, and I told my listeners the finances of
that absolutely positively only work because of the subsidies, because
of all tax credits. And I said, of course I'm
going to take them. They're out there. Everybody else is
(05:34):
taking my children's money. But if I were in Congress,
I would have voted against them. But now that they're read,
I'm taking them, and I don't.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
I did the same in Austin. I have eight and
a half killowats of solar on the roof of my house.
I'm I'm a post all subsidies unless I'm getting them.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Hell yes, wait, but what I'm saying is what I'm
saying is even though you are getting them, and even
you got them and I got them, if you or
I were in Chris, we'd still vote to eliminate all
the subsidies.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Oh of course, sure, sure. But accidence.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
I mean, look, this is what lobbyists do. They in
search special language. And I was writing in fact just yeah,
you know, the day before history, I was writing a
piece about this and I was going right after antience,
and then met provision got taken out. So then once
I saw the latest version, I thought, well, this is
really good. I mean, actually government paying attention and politicians
paying attention saying no, we can't have this. But I
(06:26):
think that, you know, over the long term, I think
this is especially good because it likely kills Anschietz's Choke
Cherry Sierra Madre project north of you in Wyoming.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
There.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
This is like, this is something like a three and
a half gigawatt project if completed, but it would kill
dozens of golden eagles per year and thousands of non
raptor species and thousands of bats. And I'm an avid
birdwatcher ross and I'm a longtime critic of the win business.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I hate that business.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I hate that industry because they despoiled the landscape. But
they also have been killing America's wildlife, some of our
most iconic birds birds for decades, and they have been
only been prosecuted a couple times for it. So I
hope this kills that choke Cherry project. I hope it kills.
I think it will kill offshore wind. It's going to
kill a lot of high builders transmission projects. And I
(07:13):
couldn't be happier if this bill is the one that
actually gets signed into law.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And we'll go back to the finances in a second
but on the bird thing is it basically the bird
flies into the the bird gets chopped up.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
By the blade as it's flying by, exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
And you know what's interesting is that it was in
twenty twenty two and I wrote about it in Newsweek
that Next Era Energy, the world's biggest producer of alternative energy.
They built a big wind project near Rawlins. And they
built that wind project despite multiple warnings from the Fishing
Wildlife Service and the Department of Material inside the Department
(07:48):
of Interia, don't build that wind project. You've got golden
eagles nesting nearby. That's a big area for golden eagles.
They built it anyway, And in twenty twenty one they
feature that same project in their ESG report. And then
thankfully under the Biden administration. Under the Biden administration, their
conduct was so egregious the DOJ called it blatant disregard
(08:09):
for the law. They prosecuted next Era for killing over
one hundred eagles, including the eagles that they killed at
that project in Wyoming, so that area, you know, golden
eagles are more rare than bald eagles. And as I said,
I'm an avid bird watcher, and this slaughter of our
wildlife in the name of climatism. I just it grinds
my gears. As my late brother John Brice said, it
(08:31):
grills my cheese.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Let's go back to the finances a little bit.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
You mentioned your PTC and ITC first one of those
stand for and then I want.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
To spend a little time.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I think I want to focus on PTC. I don't
know how many of my listeners understand just how much
money has been given to these wind producers.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
You're solar as well.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Sure well as a preface, what happened in the Inflacient
Reduction Act of twenty twenty two was that these subsidies
for wind and solar, respectively, the Production Tax Credit for
wind and Investment Tax Credit for solar, were made effectively
permanent under the IRA, and if they hadn't been repealed.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Wood mackenzie estimated that those subsidies could cost as.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Much as three trillion dollars by twenty fifty, and Travis
Fisher at Cato Institute had done a similar calculation.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
So these these.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
Subsidies, that wind subsidy, the PTC has been in effect
since nineteen ninety two and has had roughly a dozen
extensions you know, this is supposed to be a nascent energy,
you know, source of energy.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
We need to boost it because it's you know, new
and the rest of it.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
But the wind industry had effectively now made it permanent.
The same with solar, and so, you know, again to
repeat what I said before, if these sources of energy
production are so cheap, they should be able to stand
on their own without subsidies. And yet they big wind
and big solar lobby to get these subsidies made permanent
(09:56):
in the IRA and now that looks like they're on
the verge of being eliminated altogether.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
And the big win in Big Solar screaming like Matt
and the.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
You know, the academics like Jesse Jenkins from Princeer winging saying,
oh Jesus is so terrible.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Well, you know, let him compete for.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Those just joining we're talking with Robert Brice, Robert Brice
dot substack dot com. His latest piece, the Big Beautiful
Bill torpedoes Big Solar and Big Wind. So I'm already
seeing the usual left wing line on Twitter as they
start talking about this, saying yeah, saying, well, oil and
gas get all these subsidies, and they're just killing the
(10:33):
subsidies for the renewable stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
What's the truth about what.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
The left calls subsidies for oil and gas and how
they compare or don't to subsidies or so called renewables.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Sure, well, first, let's just do a quick thought experiment
ross and just assume, okay, well, they're all substies. Whatever
the tax treatment is, whether it's a tax credit or
a deduction for depletion allowance, or or just expensive of
drilling costs, let's call all of the tax treatments for
all of the energy forms a subsidy of some kind
(11:05):
or another. Well, if you look at the EIA, the
Energy Information Administration, they did an analysis for twenty twenty two.
They estimated that solar per quadrillion BTUs of energy produces
getting four billion dollars. How much is oil and gas
getting thirty million? In other words, it's getting solar in
twenty twenty two got three hundred times more love, more
(11:30):
tax treatment, more better incentives from the federal government than
oil and gas I'm sorry, the nuclear and one hundred
and thirty six times more than oil and gas. So
even if you assume take their numbers and say, oh,
it's all of subsidy. Well, oil with solar and wind
are the subs The tax treatments that they're getting in
(11:50):
the federal tax code.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Are far, far, far more.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Lucrative than anything that is given to oil and gas.
And then if you want to take it further, you
could say, well, actually the expense of drilling, well, that's
a standard practice in all business, not just the oil
and gas industry. Depletion allowance. Okay, we can argue about
that one. But nevertheless that the subsidies being given to
wind and solar are vastly greater than those being given
(12:14):
to oil and gas, and especially much greater than those
going to nuclear.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Also, and I take your point about you could essentially
you could call them all subsidies. I mean, I guess
if a company we're going to have to pay five
hundred million in corporate income tax and then they only
pay four hundred I guess you could because of this,
that and the other kind of deduction, I guess you
could call that a form of subsidy. But somehow, and
this may not be economic, this might just be more emotional.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
But I feel like they're different because.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
The wind and solar just get cash transfers from my
children's futures and right, but it really bothers me well.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
And that was one of the features of the of
the IRA was that it spanned the definition of who
could get the subsidies.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
For wind and solar.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
And they call it direct pay in other words, instead
of going getting the tax credit over years, that the
entity that was building the wind and solar could get
direct payments from the Treasury in advance as the way
I understand it.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
But I guess the other part to me.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Ross that just is so aggravating about all this is
that if the goal is decarbonization, right, if the goal
of all this legislation, and Joe Biden called it the
most of the biggest effort on climate change ever ever
you know he repeat ever ever ever, Right.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
But you look at wind energy and it was getting
in twenty twenty two, it was the subsidy for win
was nine hundred and forty seven million dollars per quadrillion
bt use.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
It was sixty nine times more than what's going to
nuclear power. So you know, let's make fair fair.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
If you're going to give it all that money to
win in solar, you should at least be giving the
same to nuclear and yet that wasn't the case.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, and we'll leave it with this. You can you
can get the last word here. I'll just say that
the reason that those subsidies are at those levels partly
it's rent seeking, but also it's that despite as you
noted earlier, a lot of these radical environmentalists who keep
talking about solar and wind being cheap, it's only cheap
after you dump a trillion dollars of other people's money
(14:19):
into it, and then the part you have it's cheap.
It's like it's like you steal somebody's wallet. You go
out for a lobster dinner, right and right, and you
find and you find two hundred dollars in the wallet
that you stole, and the bill is two fifty. So
you take the two hundred that you stole and you
take the fifty out of your wallet, and you're like, yeah,
(14:40):
fifty dollars lobster dinner.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
That's cheap.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Well one other quick point, Ross and I know you
got other guests coming up, but one other thing that's
happened recently. So this this this rollback of these massive
tax credits for solar and win I think are very
positive for a bunch of different reasons. And we haven't
even talked about grit stability, or or North atlant right whales,
or marine.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Mammals and offshore wind and what a scandal that is.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
But it's that it's going to roll back all these
efforts by these big companies to then push wind and
solar on rural communities and high voltage transmission. And the
Colorado Sun I included in my peace on substat a
note about Elbert County, which just on June twenty fifth
denied permission for Excel Energy to put their power pathway
across Elbert County southeast of Denver. And there was a
(15:28):
great quote from the county Commission there Byron McDaniel, who
told the Colorado Sun quote, this line serves no purpose
here in Elbert County, and frankly, I don't care about Denver.
It's like well, of course, but that's another example of
how rural communities are being bearing the brunt of all
this alt energy junk, all this aalt energy infrastructure because
(15:49):
people in urban areas, voters in urban areas want it,
and Excel Energy is only doing what you know, they're
told by the federal, by the Colorado State government. So
you know, that's another reason why this rollback of the
solar and wind subsidies is going to be very positive
because I care about rural America. I love ranchers and
farmers and the people who live out in rural America,
and so many of them are just getting screwed by
(16:10):
this alt energy craze. On this rollback of the subsidies
I think is a very positive step.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Well, I'm with you on hoping that if the BBB passes,
I bet it will that these most aggressive things that
the amendments that the Senate has put in to take
out these wind and solar subsidies, I hope they stay in.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I hope it stays as aggressive as possible.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Robert Bryce's new piece is called The Big Beautiful Bill
Torpedoes Big Solar and Wind. You should subscribe to Robert's
substack at Robert Bryce with a Y in Bryce Robert
Bryce dot substack dot com. Thanks for your time as always, Robert.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Ross Gosh, I love talking to that guy.
My good friend Robert Bryce, one of the world's true
leading experts on electricity generation, power grids, and so on.
Author of many books on the subjects as well. He
travels the world speaking about these issues, and he has
a fantastic substack that everybody should subscribe to at Robert Bryce.
That's Bryce dot substack dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Go check it out now.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I just got yesterday a note from Robert entitled the
Big Beautiful Bill Torpedoes, Big Solar and Big Wind, and
I have to say just the headline put a big
smile on my face. I'm one of these people who,
like Robert, has had a lot of well questions and
criticisms for many years about all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So Robert, welcome back to the show. It's good to
have you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Always a pleasure, Russ.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
It's funny you start your.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Note by talking about ten predictions that you made, and
it seems like one of them might not come true.
And it's one you and I both would have wanted
to not come true. What was the prediction and what
seems to be happening.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Well, okay, so first my crystal ball is broken. Now
it's officially broken. I think I may quit predicting anything
ever again. But last November, I wrote a piece right
before the election saying here ten predictions, can't miss predictions
for the election, and one of them was that Trump
would not be able to repeal the energy subsidies in
the Inflation Reduction Act.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
And I just you know, went off of what was
kind of I.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Guess conventional wisdom because I adopted it last November, which
was that big business, you know, once they get their
snout in the trough, it's going to be very difficult
to get them out. And there that was the the
you know, the feeling at that time was that now
big business, you know, because of all the subsidies that
were going to wind and solar, that Trump wouldn't have
(01:46):
the political will or political might to be able to
repeal the alternative energy subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act
of twenty twenty two. But the latest version of the
Senate bill, in fact, is even more restrictive. In the
House version of this reconciliation package is the One Big
Beautiful Bill Act.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
And if this.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Bill becomes law, storren Win take it into shorts. I mean,
their projects will have to be in service by twenty
twenty seven or they get no federal subsidies under the
PTC or the ITC, and in fact it also enacts
at tax if they can't prove they don't have a
lot of Chinese content in their equipment. So it's very
(02:25):
welcome news, and I just think it's fantastic. As I
said in my piece, great news for taxpayers, great news
for wildlife, and great news for rural Americans who've been
fighting the encroachment of these stupid wind and solar and
high builtage transmission projects.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I'm very pleased about this too.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
There is a Republican congressman in Colorado who I like
a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
His name is Jeff Hurd.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I supported him aggressively during the campaign, and I still
like him a lot. But he's one of these Republicans
who have been complaining a little bit about this. It's like,
if he were in Congress when this first came up,
he would have voted against the Inflation Reduction Act, basically
a watered down.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Green New Deal.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
But now that the money is flowing and he's got
a huge rural district right that has a lot, potentially
a lot of this stuff, he hasn't said he's going
to vote against the bill because of it. But he's
been complaining, and I think there's quite a few Republicans
who are trying to decide whether they'd be willing to
vote against the bill if it means taking on Trump.
But there are squishy Republicans who, now that the money
(03:27):
is flowing, would like to see it keep flowing or
the flow slow down, but not turn off. So that's
probably some of what you were thinking about.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah, well, at that time, remember there were I think
eighteen or twenty House Republicans sent a letter it was
last August saying they don't want these things to be repealed,
these massive subsidies to be repealed because some of them,
like in New York, they had you know, factories that
were being built in their districts, et cetera. But from
what my reporting, annoying friends who you know, have talked
(03:58):
with top legislators on Capitol Hill, especially on the Senate side,
this was the issue that especially Senator Mike Lee from
Utah said, I am not going to support any of
this stuff, and the president wants to get rid of it,
I'm fully on board. And so there was a previous
version of the Senate bill that included a carve out
for Philip Anschutz's big win project in Wyoming that lasted
(04:21):
for a few days. But in the in the latest version,
that little exception that would have meant about three hundred
million dollars a year to Ans' project was taken out. So,
as Lily Tomlin said, no matter how cynical I get,
I can't keep up. But this bill has in fact
gotten better. And you know, we need to get rid
of these solar and win subsidies. If these guys, if
(04:42):
these characters are solar and winded, they keep saying, oh,
it's cheaper, it's cheaper, will then improve it, by God,
prove it without government money, without taking taxpayer money. Prove
your stuff is cheaper, and then let the market decide
instead of getting all this favoritism and comb on the scale.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, and I don't need to spend long on this part,
but it was interesting to read the name Phil Anshoots,
who is the richest man in the state that I
live in, and a highly respected guy. And I have
to say, and you probably feel it just the same
way I do.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Actually, let me tell you a personal story.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
So two houses in a row, I put solar panels
on them, and I told my listeners the finances of
that absolutely positively only work because of the subsidies, because
of all tax credits. And I said, of course I'm
going to take them. They're out there. Everybody else is
(05:34):
taking my children's money. But if I were in Congress,
I would have voted against them. But now that they're read,
I'm taking them, and I don't.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
I did the same in Austin. I have eight and
a half killowats of solar on the roof of my house.
I'm I'm a post all subsidies unless I'm getting them.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Hell yes, wait, but what I'm saying is what I'm
saying is even though you are getting them, and even
you got them and I got them, if you or
I were in Chris, we'd still vote to eliminate all
the subsidies.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Oh of course, sure, sure. But accidence.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
I mean, look, this is what lobbyists do. They in
search special language. And I was writing in fact just yeah,
you know, the day before history, I was writing a
piece about this and I was going right after antience,
and then met provision got taken out. So then once
I saw the latest version, I thought, well, this is
really good. I mean, actually government paying attention and politicians
paying attention saying no, we can't have this. But I
(06:26):
think that, you know, over the long term, I think
this is especially good because it likely kills Anschietz's Choke
Cherry Sierra Madre project north of you in Wyoming.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
There.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
This is like, this is something like a three and
a half gigawatt project if completed, but it would kill
dozens of golden eagles per year and thousands of non
raptor species and thousands of bats. And I'm an avid
birdwatcher ross and I'm a longtime critic of the win business.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I hate that business.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I hate that industry because they despoiled the landscape. But
they also have been killing America's wildlife, some of our
most iconic birds birds for decades, and they have been
only been prosecuted a couple times for it. So I
hope this kills that choke Cherry project. I hope it kills.
I think it will kill offshore wind. It's going to
kill a lot of high builders transmission projects. And I
(07:13):
couldn't be happier if this bill is the one that
actually gets signed into law.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And we'll go back to the finances in a second
but on the bird thing is it basically the bird
flies into the the bird gets chopped up.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
By the blade as it's flying by, exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
And you know what's interesting is that it was in
twenty twenty two and I wrote about it in Newsweek
that Next Era Energy, the world's biggest producer of alternative energy.
They built a big wind project near Rawlins. And they
built that wind project despite multiple warnings from the Fishing
Wildlife Service and the Department of Material inside the Department
(07:48):
of Interia, don't build that wind project. You've got golden
eagles nesting nearby. That's a big area for golden eagles.
They built it anyway, And in twenty twenty one they
feature that same project in their ESG report. And then
thankfully under the Biden administration. Under the Biden administration, their
conduct was so egregious the DOJ called it blatant disregard
(08:09):
for the law. They prosecuted next Era for killing over
one hundred eagles, including the eagles that they killed at
that project in Wyoming, so that area, you know, golden
eagles are more rare than bald eagles. And as I said,
I'm an avid bird watcher, and this slaughter of our
wildlife in the name of climatism. I just it grinds
my gears. As my late brother John Brice said, it
(08:31):
grills my cheese.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Let's go back to the finances a little bit.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
You mentioned your PTC and ITC first one of those
stand for and then I want.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
To spend a little time.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I think I want to focus on PTC. I don't
know how many of my listeners understand just how much
money has been given to these wind producers.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
You're solar as well.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Sure well as a preface, what happened in the Inflacient
Reduction Act of twenty twenty two was that these subsidies
for wind and solar, respectively, the Production Tax Credit for
wind and Investment Tax Credit for solar, were made effectively
permanent under the IRA, and if they hadn't been repealed.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Wood mackenzie estimated that those subsidies could cost as.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Much as three trillion dollars by twenty fifty, and Travis
Fisher at Cato Institute had done a similar calculation.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
So these these.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
Subsidies, that wind subsidy, the PTC has been in effect
since nineteen ninety two and has had roughly a dozen
extensions you know, this is supposed to be a nascent energy,
you know, source of energy.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
We need to boost it because it's you know, new
and the rest of it.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
But the wind industry had effectively now made it permanent.
The same with solar, and so, you know, again to
repeat what I said before, if these sources of energy
production are so cheap, they should be able to stand
on their own without subsidies. And yet they big wind
and big solar lobby to get these subsidies made permanent
(09:56):
in the IRA and now that looks like they're on
the verge of being eliminated altogether.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
And the big win in Big Solar screaming like Matt
and the.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
You know, the academics like Jesse Jenkins from Princeer winging saying,
oh Jesus is so terrible.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Well, you know, let him compete for.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Those just joining we're talking with Robert Brice, Robert Brice
dot substack dot com. His latest piece, the Big Beautiful
Bill torpedoes Big Solar and Big Wind. So I'm already
seeing the usual left wing line on Twitter as they
start talking about this, saying yeah, saying, well, oil and
gas get all these subsidies, and they're just killing the
(10:33):
subsidies for the renewable stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
What's the truth about what.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
The left calls subsidies for oil and gas and how
they compare or don't to subsidies or so called renewables.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Sure, well, first, let's just do a quick thought experiment
ross and just assume, okay, well, they're all substies. Whatever
the tax treatment is, whether it's a tax credit or
a deduction for depletion allowance, or or just expensive of
drilling costs, let's call all of the tax treatments for
all of the energy forms a subsidy of some kind
(11:05):
or another. Well, if you look at the EIA, the
Energy Information Administration, they did an analysis for twenty twenty two.
They estimated that solar per quadrillion BTUs of energy produces
getting four billion dollars. How much is oil and gas
getting thirty million? In other words, it's getting solar in
twenty twenty two got three hundred times more love, more
(11:30):
tax treatment, more better incentives from the federal government than
oil and gas I'm sorry, the nuclear and one hundred
and thirty six times more than oil and gas. So
even if you assume take their numbers and say, oh,
it's all of subsidy. Well, oil with solar and wind
are the subs The tax treatments that they're getting in
(11:50):
the federal tax code.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Are far, far, far more.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Lucrative than anything that is given to oil and gas.
And then if you want to take it further, you
could say, well, actually the expense of drilling, well, that's
a standard practice in all business, not just the oil
and gas industry. Depletion allowance. Okay, we can argue about
that one. But nevertheless that the subsidies being given to
wind and solar are vastly greater than those being given
(12:14):
to oil and gas, and especially much greater than those
going to nuclear.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Also, and I take your point about you could essentially
you could call them all subsidies. I mean, I guess
if a company we're going to have to pay five
hundred million in corporate income tax and then they only
pay four hundred I guess you could because of this,
that and the other kind of deduction, I guess you
could call that a form of subsidy. But somehow, and
this may not be economic, this might just be more emotional.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
But I feel like they're different because.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
The wind and solar just get cash transfers from my
children's futures and right, but it really bothers me well.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
And that was one of the features of the of
the IRA was that it spanned the definition of who
could get the subsidies.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
For wind and solar.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
And they call it direct pay in other words, instead
of going getting the tax credit over years, that the
entity that was building the wind and solar could get
direct payments from the Treasury in advance as the way
I understand it.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
But I guess the other part to me.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Ross that just is so aggravating about all this is
that if the goal is decarbonization, right, if the goal
of all this legislation, and Joe Biden called it the
most of the biggest effort on climate change ever ever
you know he repeat ever ever ever, Right.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
But you look at wind energy and it was getting
in twenty twenty two, it was the subsidy for win
was nine hundred and forty seven million dollars per quadrillion
bt use.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
It was sixty nine times more than what's going to
nuclear power. So you know, let's make fair fair.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
If you're going to give it all that money to
win in solar, you should at least be giving the
same to nuclear and yet that wasn't the case.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, and we'll leave it with this. You can you
can get the last word here. I'll just say that
the reason that those subsidies are at those levels partly
it's rent seeking, but also it's that despite as you
noted earlier, a lot of these radical environmentalists who keep
talking about solar and wind being cheap, it's only cheap
after you dump a trillion dollars of other people's money
(14:19):
into it, and then the part you have it's cheap.
It's like it's like you steal somebody's wallet. You go
out for a lobster dinner, right and right, and you
find and you find two hundred dollars in the wallet
that you stole, and the bill is two fifty. So
you take the two hundred that you stole and you
take the fifty out of your wallet, and you're like, yeah,
(14:40):
fifty dollars lobster dinner.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
That's cheap.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Well one other quick point, Ross and I know you
got other guests coming up, but one other thing that's
happened recently. So this this this rollback of these massive
tax credits for solar and win I think are very
positive for a bunch of different reasons. And we haven't
even talked about grit stability, or or North atlant right whales,
or marine.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Mammals and offshore wind and what a scandal that is.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
But it's that it's going to roll back all these
efforts by these big companies to then push wind and
solar on rural communities and high voltage transmission. And the
Colorado Sun I included in my peace on substat a
note about Elbert County, which just on June twenty fifth
denied permission for Excel Energy to put their power pathway
across Elbert County southeast of Denver. And there was a
(15:28):
great quote from the county Commission there Byron McDaniel, who
told the Colorado Sun quote, this line serves no purpose
here in Elbert County, and frankly, I don't care about Denver.
It's like well, of course, but that's another example of
how rural communities are being bearing the brunt of all
this alt energy junk, all this aalt energy infrastructure because
(15:49):
people in urban areas, voters in urban areas want it,
and Excel Energy is only doing what you know, they're
told by the federal, by the Colorado State government. So
you know, that's another reason why this rollback of the
solar and wind subsidies is going to be very positive
because I care about rural America. I love ranchers and
farmers and the people who live out in rural America,
and so many of them are just getting screwed by
(16:10):
this alt energy craze. On this rollback of the subsidies
I think is a very positive step.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Well, I'm with you on hoping that if the BBB passes,
I bet it will that these most aggressive things that
the amendments that the Senate has put in to take
out these wind and solar subsidies, I hope they stay in.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I hope it stays as aggressive as possible.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Robert Bryce's new piece is called The Big Beautiful Bill
Torpedoes Big Solar and Wind. You should subscribe to Robert's
substack at Robert Bryce with a Y in Bryce Robert
Bryce dot substack dot com. Thanks for your time as always, Robert.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Ross Gosh, I love talking to that guy.
The Ross Kaminsky Show News
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