08-26-25 *INTERVIEW* Trey Gowdy and his Latest Novel 'The Color of Death'

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So happy to have Trey back.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
He's a former prosecutor, he's a former member of the
House of Representatives. He was chairman of the House Oversight
and Government Reform Committee.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
He's got his.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Own show on Fox Now Sunday Night in America. It's
a wonderful show on Fox News. And he's got a
new book out. Actually, let me reach over here and
grab the book. And it's called The Color of Death.
And I've read the whole thing already, and today is
publication day and you can see, Trey, I've got the
one where you like you sat down and signed one
hundred and fifty books so that people can think you

(00:32):
care about them, even though you signed one hundred and
fifty of them all at once. I got one of those,
which is cool. And so thanks for being back. You're
I really enjoyed our previous conversation. So I'm really glad
to have you now.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
I'm delighted to be with you always. Ross and welcome back,
and congratulations on surviving, Sergy.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
It's right, that's right, all right.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
I want to talk with you maybe about two things
before we talk about the book. Actually, no, three things, sir,
three things. This is probably kind of old at this point.
But a few months back, when I was just texting
with you privately, your part of South Carolina had gone
through some really bad stuff following a hurricane. And I'm

(01:18):
and I think a lot of people didn't know just
how a lot of focus had been more on Asheville
and North Carolina and stuff like that. And I don't
know how many people understood how bad it was near you.
And I haven't asked you about it since. So how
are things well better?

Speaker 3 (01:33):
I mean we you know, I was actually out of
town ross the night that Helene hit and I could
not get back home. I had to take the most
circuitous route to simply get back home, and roads that
used to be passable were impassable. It kind of reminded
me of Hubo, Hurricane Hugo, which struck like a month

(01:56):
after my wife and I got married. We were in Columbia,
and it was reminiscent of that. You still to this
day see trees down on the periphery of my neighborhood
that were knocked down by Helene. So, by no stretch
did we have it as bad as people in western
North Carolina.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
But it was much worse than anyone anticipated.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Right, and you're somewhat west at least in South Carolina.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
You're not by the coast, right.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
Oh no, I'm in the upstate.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
I am in spartanurg which is right beside Greenville, kind
of in between Atlanta and Charlotte on ID five.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, let's do a couple other things, a couple of
current events things sort of and then and then I
want to get to the book. I was fascinated and
somewhat disappointed, although you can't these days. Twitter is so
disappointing all the time that you'd be more on to
be disappointed by anything there because it.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Is what it is.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
But you you made a comment on TV about some
of these folks like Clapper and Brennan, who I think
did something wrong when it comes to how Trump was
treated regarding Rushiagate, and you said, and I'm quoting, there's shame,
there's history.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
It's not just prison, and.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
There's a lot of folks out there who are clamoring
throw them all in prison. And what you the abuse
you took on Twitter for saying that was was really something.
I'm guessing you probably don't even read that stuff anymore,
and if you do, you don't care but I'd just
like you to respond to any of it, including if

(03:30):
you want the underlying issue.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
Yeah, I don't read it.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
I mean people look just the fact that people criticize you,
that not necessarily mean they're wrong. But I have just
gotten to the point in life when when people don't
know me, and then I don't tend to care that
much what they think. We do not put people in
prison in this country based on social media. We do

(03:58):
it based on an indictment, an arrest, warrant, a jury, trial,
and a sentencing. What I find most interesting is is
lots of the critics did not spend a single.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
Day trying to uncover what was done.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
I spent two years of my life working beside Cash
Betel and John Y Ratcliffe trying to figure out what happened.
So if it fits within the statute of limitations and
it meets the elements of the offense, then by all
means prosecute them. My point was pretty simple. The fact
that something doesn't rise to the level of a crime

(04:32):
doesn't mean it's okay. We have to find other ways
to punish or meet out punishment aside from simply prison.
There's shame, there's history, there's the loss of reputation. I mean,
the fact that something is one day outside of statute
limitations doesn't mean that it was okay to do it,

(04:53):
just means that it doesn't fit within what we call criminality.
So I just find it interesting that people who literally
never spent a day of their lives in a courtroom
because they have some sense of what a law should be.
I mean, being a bad parent is not a crime,
being a bad spouse is not a crime. Being a

(05:14):
lousy FBI director is in and of itself not a crime. However,
they may have committed crimes, So let's let the grand
jury do its job less like Cash Mattel and Pam Bondy.
But we don't indict people based on social media, and
I hope we never get to the point where we do.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
If I were somebody who was as angry about all
this stuff, I try not to be angry about much
because it seems unproductive. But if I were someone who
were as angry about all this as some of the
folks on Twitter are, and I will say I think
John Brennan in particular is a bad actor, I would
probably take the opposite of the position they're taking in

(05:55):
the sense that it is so so unlikely that any
of the people go to prison that I would be
spending my time focusing on how do we make them
pay some other price. I don't mean like vigilante something.
I mean as you're talking about with history, with public shame,
with whatever, because the chance of any of these people
going to jail is so vanishingly low.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
Well, the other point I would add to that ross
is who do they think asked Brennan the questions that
got him in trouble?

Speaker 4 (06:25):
I mean, was it any of the critics on social media.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Or was it the person they're criticized. I'm the one
that asking the questions. Yeah, I'm the one that asking
the question that he lied to. So, I mean, look,
there are a bunch of armchair quarterbacks. Tell them to
run for Congress, tell them to set up on the
dais and ask the questions. Tell them to go to
law school and become a prosecutor. It is easy to

(06:48):
indict someone verbally, but unless you have stood in front
of twelve people and convinced them beyond a reasonable doubt,
which I did for almost two decades, then you don't
know what all is involve doing so just like people
were chanting to lock him up at Donald Trump, just
like people were outside the courthouse saying Trump should go

(07:09):
to prison.

Speaker 4 (07:09):
He hadn't even had a jury trial yet.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
I mean, we don't put people in prison unless you've
been adjudicated guilty. I don't know why that is so
hard for some conservatives to get their heads around.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Let me switch gears briefly.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
And I hesitate to bring it up because I think
this story is such a massive waste of time.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
But it's one of these things that.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Everybody's talking about it, so I feel like I need
to a little bit.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
And that's the Epstein thing.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
And I have a very fundamental question that I've never
heard anybody answer, and I think you're the right guy
to answer the question. We hear all these people clamoring
for the release of the Epstein files.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
What the heck are the Epstein files?

Speaker 4 (07:48):
What is it? Even?

Speaker 3 (07:50):
Mean? Absolutely no idea what they're referring to, because that's
not I mean, prosecutors don't think in terms of files.
We think in terms of witness statements, examination of forensic
evinent search warrants. So I mean, if the file is
a victim impact statement, that a victim filled out, this

(08:12):
is what that crime impacted, how it impacted me.

Speaker 4 (08:17):
That will never be released.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
If you're talking about grand jury material, it requires a
judge to release that. Let's talk about Epstein for a second.
So Epstein was indicted, so there would be grand jury testimony,
but we don't know whether any victims went before the
grand jury because you're not required to put victims for.

Speaker 4 (08:37):
The grand jury.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
It could be a single police officer summarizing what every
other witness told him or her that is sufficient to
get an indictment. We know that just Lain Maxwell was
not only indicted but convicted. You have the trial transcript,
you have all the exhibits that were used in her trial.
If there's any way to prosecute anyone that was connected

(09:04):
with the trafficking or underage sex or sexual underage girls,
there's no one in the world that would like to
see them punish more than me, No one in the world.
But when you talk about files, prosecutors don't know what
you're talking about. Are you, I mean you got to
be more specific. Are you talking about a witness statement,

(09:25):
Are you talking about surveillance video, are you talking.

Speaker 4 (09:29):
About DNA evidence? Are you talking about semen?

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Me.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
In a lot of cases, you don't have any of
this stuff ross. It is just testimony.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
So if the victim is unavailable, if the victim is
unwilling to come forward, how are you going to win
that case.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
The other thing I think that some of these people
mean when they talk about the Epstein files is evidence
gathered by the FBI from Epstein's various locations, from his
homes or whatever. As as a matter of law, what
would the government be allowed to put out into the
public domain from documents that they got from searching Epstein's premises,

(10:13):
assuming that they would go through and redact let's say,
potential victims, names, and a couple things like that.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
But would they be allowed to just show the stuff
to the world if they felt like it.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
No. I mean, look, anyone connected with him, anyone who aided, abetted,
provided a demand for what he was providing. I want
to punish them as severely as the law can possibly
punish them. I actually would be more than fine even

(10:48):
if the statute had lapsed or the victims.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
Were no longer willing to cooperate. I'm fine with naming
and shaming them.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
But the reality is the government speaks to indictments. Remember
Jim come He's press conference where he laid out all
the reasons that Hillary Clinton was guilty, but just said
he wasn't going to charge him any he going to
charge her anyway. Yeah, prosecutors usually don't do that. You
remember the Molor report. I mean I was one of
the few people that was wondering, why is the Malor

(11:15):
report being made public?

Speaker 4 (11:17):
Donald Trump is not being charged.

Speaker 3 (11:19):
We don't like open up investigative files and say, look,
we didn't charge this person, but let me tell you
all the best so if we found on them that
that's usually not what law enforcement does. They speak to
indictments and arrest warrants.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
I'll tell you what really concerns me, just last comment
and then we're gonna talk about book. What really concerns
me is it seems like Jim Comer, who I guess
is chairing the committee that used to chair is wants
to get this birthday book that Gillian Maxwell put together
at some point. Can can you imagine, like, so they
get this book, A bunch of you know, rich people
sent Epstein a birthday card, you know, and probably many

(11:53):
or book. Most of those people probably had no idea
of any of these terrible things he was doing, they
sent him a birthday card. I can easily imagine some
Democrat member of the Senator of the House finding a
prominent Republican in that or vice versa, and then like
ruining somebody's life because he had the misfortune to happen
to know Jeffrey Epstein just enough to give him a

(12:14):
birthday card.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
Well, I will give you the other side of the argument,
because that's what lawyers do. So if someone is charged
and convicted, there is an appellent or review process, so
we know whether or not there was sufficient evidence to
endice or convict someone. We never know when someone is
not charged, So it is possible the oversight committee or

(12:38):
the judiciary committee wants to know why you did not
charge someone. So let's assume in that birthday book they wrote,
I had a fantastic time two months ago on your island.

Speaker 4 (12:51):
I am.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
I would want to know did you have sufficient evidence
to charge someone and decide not to do so, And
if you decided not to do so, why so.

Speaker 4 (13:03):
An arrest, conviction. All of that can be reviewed.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
What our system is not set up to review is
the failure to charge someone when you should have.

Speaker 4 (13:14):
And I'll go back to the Hillary Clinton example.

Speaker 3 (13:16):
We spend a lot of time with Jim Comey saying
why did you not charge her?

Speaker 4 (13:22):
The only way to do that is.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Through congressional scrutiny, because no one in the public has
access to that fantastic answer. We're talking with Trey Goudi,
former member of Congress, a former prosecutor, currently has a
show on Fox News Sunday Night in America.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
It's a really great show. His new novel is called
The Color of Death, and it's a thriller novel. First
of all, Trey, let me just did you ever think
that when I would be talking.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
To you on the radio? First of all, we probably
never thought we'd be talking to each other.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
But you would have one point four million Twitter followers
or ex followers, and you would be noted on the
cover of your new book as a number one New
York Times best selling author.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
When did you think that was going to happen? To
Trey Goudy?

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Right after every school teacher I ever had thought it
would happen, which is never. I cannot imagine the reaction
of every teacher I ever had. I'm sure right now
they're thinking that that's a mispread that Trey read a book,
not that he wrote one, that he actually read a
book that would be newsworthy. I love to write, Ross,

(14:32):
It may be my favorite thing of all to do.
I wrote every closing argument, every opening statement, every speech
I made in Congress, every word that comes out of.

Speaker 4 (14:41):
My mouth on air, I write. I love to write.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
But writing nonfiction and writing fiction are in two entirely
different things. So thank you to Susanne Scott, my boss.
Thank you to the people at Fox who kind of
allowed and also encouraged me to do this.

Speaker 4 (15:01):
I mean, it is one thing to write a book
about how to ask questions that you know that came naturally.
Writing fiction is different, different points.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Of view, you know, hidden clues, taking people through this
sleight of hand.

Speaker 4 (15:18):
Did this person do it? Did that?

Speaker 3 (15:20):
It's my first foray into it, and I'm really grateful
that Fox let me do it, and because it was
a labor of love. It's been in my head, Ross
for ten years, this book. I just never really had
the courage to.

Speaker 4 (15:36):
You know, when you write.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
Something, when you say something, when you do something publicly,
you do open yourself up for critique, and so it
you know, nobody, I guess likes to be criticized, but
it meant enough to me to run that risk because
I'm passionate about people knowing what prosecutors and cops and

(15:58):
the victims of crime go through in a homicide investigation.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Trey's book is called The Color of Death, and today
is publication day. One of the joys of my job
is sometimes I get books in advance so I can
talk with authors on the day the book is published.
And it's a murder mystery where the primary character is
some subset of Trey, mixed in probably with other people
and mixed in with his imagination as well. But the

(16:23):
primary character is a prosecutor in South Carolina, and I
want to Trey. Let me just quote a little bit here.
I just ask you to talk about this a little bit.
This is page forty. I had a love hate relationship
with this building. Courthouses are similar to hospitals, clinics, and
counseling sessions in one respect. Broken people come here to
be healed, but there is no healing. Everyone leaves with

(16:46):
some type of scar, one left either by a perpetrator
or by the system. But they all leave with a
mark reminding them that nothing is ever restored to its
original state. Closure may be the greatest lie ever told.
There is no closure. There's more, but in the interest time,
I'll stop there. I love that paragraph, and I again
I sense that that's that's Trey Gowdy talking.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
When I describe the prosecutor as handsome, you should know
it was not me. So the prosecutor is not me.
It's tall and handsome. But yes, no, I you know
we hear the word a lot closure. I see the grief,
the pain etched on the faces of the moms and

(17:34):
dads of children who were murdered when I bump into
them and sparkman to this day, when I see him
at the grocery store or I see him at church.
If you want to see what grief etched on the
face of a living human being.

Speaker 4 (17:48):
Looks like, I have seen it.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
And it doesn't matter that you put the person on
death row, it doesn't matter that you've got in life
without parole. The only exception is possibly in sex assault cases.
The assault is a life sentence for the victim, but
her last image of the perpetrator is him walking out

(18:12):
of the courtroom with no power whatsoever. He is gone forever.
That provides sometimes a modicum, a modicum of peace, but
no closure. You cannot undo what was done, So it
is a myth. It leaves a mark. Sometimes the mark

(18:32):
is visible ross and sometimes it is not. But people
who have not been victimized don't come to the courthouse right.
It is literally a place for broken people who have
been hurt or injured, or too scared or some cases
too dead to speak up for themselves.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
We've got a little over a minute left. Most crime
thrillers are the lead character is a cop of some sort.
Yours is a prosecutor, And obviously you are channeling things
that you have lived, and it comes through very clearly,

(19:09):
like who you know. You would know even if you
didn't know who Trey Goudy was, you would know after
reading the book that Trey Goudy has real important experience
in this world as a prosecutor.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
It really comes through. I would like you to just
take a moment.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
We're just about out of time, but take a moment
telling me why you think the experience of reading a
crime thriller is so different when the story is being
told by a prosecutor. And I don't mean you, I
mean the character in the book where the story is
being told by a prosecutor rather than buy a cop.

Speaker 4 (19:47):
Because it's the real world.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
Television gets it wrong, the miniseries get it wrong, and
movies get it wrong. Prosecutors do not show up the
day of jury selection and say, hey, let me see
a file and let's go get.

Speaker 4 (19:59):
Ready to try this. We literally are at the crime
scene that night.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
We work with the cops and say, okay, it's not
only what we can prove is what the defense is
going to say, and we have to run these tests
even though we know they're not going to come back
with prints. We know we're not going to get DNA
because the jury's going to want to know why we didn't,
So whoever has to stand in front of the jury

(20:24):
and explain it should be there as early on as
they possibly can. Real prosecutors know that we are there
the night the crime happens.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
We're all the phone with the cops.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
The rest of media gets it wrong. It's the cops
do all the work and then the lawyers come in
at the last minute.