Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I want to get to our guest.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
President Trump is meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Nett
and Yahoo right now.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
They're going to have a joint press conference.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
If they're even close to on time, it'll be a
little bit later this hour. And obviously the topic at
hand is how to deal with the current situation in
Gaza and perhaps the West Bank as well. Is there
a peace process and so on joining us to talk
about it asof. Romerowski asof is executive director of the
Association for the Study of the Middle East and Africa
(00:29):
and also executive director of Scholars for Peace in the
Middle East asof. Happy New Year, and welcome to Kowa.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Thank you for having me a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Very glad too. All Right, so let's jump in.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We're told that there's a twenty one point piece plan
put together by Steve witcoffin Jared Kushner that Trump seems
to be in favor of. Let's just kind of use
that as the framework for what you expect to happen
today and what you expect.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
To hear in this press conference.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I think there's a lot of pressure to kind of
move along a process, and there's a lot of frustration
with as far as on both ends, as far as
the release of the hostages and everything that's been going
on for the past few months now. My guess is
that there will be some kind of compromise.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I think that there's some of.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
The some of the points of the twenty one the
sticking points, as far as the Israeli idea, we're moving
forces uh. You know again after Hamas agrees to disarm
and and to move and to and to change its
UH narrative so to speak.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Uh, those are things that are.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Going to be harder for the Israelis to swallow.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
One of the.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Bigger issues is what happened in the day after tomorrow's scenario.
The part of the points that are listed is that
a European entity of sorts uh rumor to be led
by Tony Blair, will be going on to kind of
govern Gaza in the interim period. These are all the
things that have been discussed. I think the biggest, the
(02:04):
biggest UH win would be if indeed and again so
this is the number one demand that all dead and
alive hostages would be released within the first forty eight
hours if that happens, which goes back to the original
Witchloss proposal. Then Israel would release over one thousand active
(02:27):
active terrorists of Hamas uh and is part of that deal,
and then the the other following twenty one UH, the
other the other points will come together.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
But this is all contingent on the.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Number one demand, which of course is not none of
these phase acrobatic deals that we've been seeing all along,
but really a full uh you know, one deal, and
that will begin the process to move both parties along hopefully.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Okay, so we got about we got about a little
over four minutes here. So I've never understood, and I
still don't understand, what's in it for Hamas to go
along with any deal, because they don't care if they die,
or at least in theory, they don't care if they die.
The ones hiding out and cut a probably do. But
many of their foot soldiers, they think they're going to
be martyrs. They don't mind being martyrs. And so what's
(03:19):
in it for them to give up the leverage of
having hostages, because once they don't have the hostages anymore,
Netnyaho's gonna you know, they're all gonna wake up dead
one day.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
I'm with you on your skepticism.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I mean, I think that again Hamas has had no
incentive whatsoever to follow through on any of this because
it's their only insurance card. I think that the the
pressure that's coming down is mostly pressure coming down on
the Israelis and the changes that have been basically surrounding
all of this. I mean, on the heels of nis
Honiau's speech, as you saw on Friday, you had, you know,
(03:57):
a bunch of states who decide to declare Palestinian state.
I think that people, you know, there's a lot of fatigue,
you know, on both ends, visably what's going on in Gaza,
and there's a question about what Gaza the day after
tomorrow looks like the biggest hurdle.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Is going to be.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
And I think that says, you know, to your point exactly,
is how to disentangle whatever is left of Palestinian society
from Hamas. Tamas cannot be part of the day after tomorrow,
Hamas cannot be trusted h And so some of the
pressure that you're seeing coming down from the Trump administration
is obviously on the Kataris and the other Arab states
(04:33):
to try to marginalize Hamas as far as possible if not.
To your point, again, they have no incentive whatsoever. They
thrive on this reality, on the so called starvation, on
the salmon right, and the more death there is there is,
the more pressure is on outside actors rather than Hamas itself.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
We're talking with us Off Romarowski, executive director of the
Association for the Study of the Middle East and Africa.
I got about a couple minutes left here as Off.
So one of the things that I wonder, all of
these plans seem to contemplate somebody ruling Gaza, somebody other
than Israel, and I think Israel doesn't want to be
in there. I think they're tired. Politically, they're tired, The
(05:16):
people are tired, the soldiers are tired.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
But what I wonder is who wants to be.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
In there as a peacekeeping force, knowing that there are
going to be no matter what, there will be some
members of Hamas, maybe PIJ maybe some whatever other terrorist
groups around that are gonna just take shots at the
peacekeepers just to try to cause trouble. Are the Kataris,
the Saudis, the Europeans. Who's gonna want to put soldiers
(05:45):
in there?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
And that's a very good question. I mean, look for
the Israelis, you know, to your earlier point, they don't
want to be there.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
But they have no choice.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
The problem is is that if they can guarantee safety
uh post ten and here we are about to mark
a two year anniversary for the entire community of the
southern part of Israel, they cannot leave. That was part
of the commitment, and that the concern, you know, the
concern is as far and this was a part of
the back and forth with the original Trump proposal, that
(06:16):
there would be rehabilitation of Gaza and in the meantime
remove the population out there to Egypt or Jordan or
anywhere else while Gaza is being cleansed and rehabilitated. Of course,
the Egyptians Andre Dainians bulked with that, let's not forget
that Gazins are indeed Egyptians, and what does that tell
you about Egypt. But I'm not willing to take their
own brethren. That being said, I think that there is uh,
(06:40):
there is a desire or an attempt at leave facade
to try to move along create calm in the area,
given the amount of suffering that's been happening. But any
group that goes in whether be Arab or especially European
is going to be a target. I mean there is
no way that you know Hamas you know the the
Raeli's hope. I mean that you know the fact that
(07:02):
they've been able to take out you know, key members
of Hamasis leadership and create this array. But there's always
somebody else around the corner. How much come and lull
does that create the process that.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Entire exercise has proven to.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
You know, come back and bite them as we saw
with ten seven, because that has been happening since two
thousand and eight and onward.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Uh So that's the challenge. Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
That being said, somebody has to give it the good
old college try, which is what you're seeing happening now.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Okay, I got just a few seconds here. Uh if
you were a betting man, do you think that on
the last calendar day of this year there will be
something like a piece process going on between Israel and Gaza.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
If I'm a betting man, I think there'll be some
kind of architecture that would be you know, that would
be attempted to be implemented, whether or I'm seriously doubtful
there'll be something in place that will be trustworthy the
on the Israeli side, and I think that that's the
other part in the In the second that I have
left is going to be a question about is Israel
(08:07):
going to go to elections.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
That's going to be a domestic issue at large.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
But if there but you know, the bottom line is
if the hostages are not back home, debt and alive,
this is going to be a non starter. That's the
only thing that's going to start any kind of conversation whatsoever. Otherwise,
all twenty points are moot.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
If there is no hostages back home, I could agree
with you more.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
And I would also say, just as a parting note,
I am, I guess, not that surprised, but very disappointed
that these Europeans and Australia as well, would would reward
hamas reward mass murder by declaring that they recognize a
(08:48):
Palestinian state two years after the Palestinians proved to any
people who still weren't sure about this that they don't
deserve a state. Do you want to just offer one
last thought on that one hundred it's.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Rewarding terrorism, and there's no reason for that whatsoever. It's
a fantasy, it's not a reality. And the Palestinians haven't
done anything whatsoever to show any kind of movement for
actual actionable terms as far as taking responsibility for their
own people. And all they do is they live on
the propaganda which allows them to be the victims of
(09:21):
the world, with no responsibility and no accountability. And then
the Israelis left in this lull, in this limbo situation asap.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Fro Morowski is executive director of the Association for the
Study of Middle East and Africa as well as of
Scholars for Peace in the Middle East. Thanks for your time,
great guest. Asaph will definitely have you back. Thank you,
thank you.
I want to get to our guest.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
President Trump is meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Nett
and Yahoo right now.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
They're going to have a joint press conference.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
If they're even close to on time, it'll be a
little bit later this hour. And obviously the topic at
hand is how to deal with the current situation in
Gaza and perhaps the West Bank as well. Is there
a peace process and so on joining us to talk
about it asof. Romerowski asof is executive director of the
Association for the Study of the Middle East and Africa
(00:29):
and also executive director of Scholars for Peace in the
Middle East asof. Happy New Year, and welcome to Kowa.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Thank you for having me a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Very glad too. All Right, so let's jump in.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We're told that there's a twenty one point piece plan
put together by Steve witcoffin Jared Kushner that Trump seems
to be in favor of. Let's just kind of use
that as the framework for what you expect to happen
today and what you expect.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
To hear in this press conference.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I think there's a lot of pressure to kind of
move along a process, and there's a lot of frustration
with as far as on both ends, as far as
the release of the hostages and everything that's been going
on for the past few months now. My guess is
that there will be some kind of compromise.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I think that there's some of.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
The some of the points of the twenty one the
sticking points, as far as the Israeli idea, we're moving
forces uh. You know again after Hamas agrees to disarm
and and to move and to and to change its
UH narrative so to speak.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Uh, those are things that are.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Going to be harder for the Israelis to swallow.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
One of the.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Bigger issues is what happened in the day after tomorrow's scenario.
The part of the points that are listed is that
a European entity of sorts uh rumor to be led
by Tony Blair, will be going on to kind of
govern Gaza in the interim period. These are all the
things that have been discussed. I think the biggest, the
(02:04):
biggest UH win would be if indeed and again so
this is the number one demand that all dead and
alive hostages would be released within the first forty eight
hours if that happens, which goes back to the original
Witchloss proposal. Then Israel would release over one thousand active
(02:27):
active terrorists of Hamas uh and is part of that deal,
and then the the other following twenty one UH, the
other the other points will come together.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
But this is all contingent on the.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Number one demand, which of course is not none of
these phase acrobatic deals that we've been seeing all along,
but really a full uh you know, one deal, and
that will begin the process to move both parties along hopefully.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Okay, so we got about we got about a little
over four minutes here. So I've never understood, and I
still don't understand, what's in it for Hamas to go
along with any deal, because they don't care if they die,
or at least in theory, they don't care if they die.
The ones hiding out and cut a probably do. But
many of their foot soldiers, they think they're going to
be martyrs. They don't mind being martyrs. And so what's
(03:19):
in it for them to give up the leverage of
having hostages, because once they don't have the hostages anymore,
Netnyaho's gonna you know, they're all gonna wake up dead
one day.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
I'm with you on your skepticism.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I mean, I think that again Hamas has had no
incentive whatsoever to follow through on any of this because
it's their only insurance card. I think that the the
pressure that's coming down is mostly pressure coming down on
the Israelis and the changes that have been basically surrounding
all of this. I mean, on the heels of nis
Honiau's speech, as you saw on Friday, you had, you know,
(03:57):
a bunch of states who decide to declare Palestinian state.
I think that people, you know, there's a lot of fatigue,
you know, on both ends, visably what's going on in Gaza,
and there's a question about what Gaza the day after
tomorrow looks like the biggest hurdle.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Is going to be.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
And I think that says, you know, to your point exactly,
is how to disentangle whatever is left of Palestinian society
from Hamas. Tamas cannot be part of the day after tomorrow,
Hamas cannot be trusted h And so some of the
pressure that you're seeing coming down from the Trump administration
is obviously on the Kataris and the other Arab states
(04:33):
to try to marginalize Hamas as far as possible if not.
To your point, again, they have no incentive whatsoever. They
thrive on this reality, on the so called starvation, on
the salmon right, and the more death there is there is,
the more pressure is on outside actors rather than Hamas itself.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
We're talking with us Off Romarowski, executive director of the
Association for the Study of the Middle East and Africa.
I got about a couple minutes left here as Off.
So one of the things that I wonder, all of
these plans seem to contemplate somebody ruling Gaza, somebody other
than Israel, and I think Israel doesn't want to be
in there. I think they're tired. Politically, they're tired, The
(05:16):
people are tired, the soldiers are tired.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
But what I wonder is who wants to be.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
In there as a peacekeeping force, knowing that there are
going to be no matter what, there will be some
members of Hamas, maybe PIJ maybe some whatever other terrorist
groups around that are gonna just take shots at the
peacekeepers just to try to cause trouble. Are the Kataris,
the Saudis, the Europeans. Who's gonna want to put soldiers
(05:45):
in there?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
And that's a very good question. I mean, look for
the Israelis, you know, to your earlier point, they don't
want to be there.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
But they have no choice.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
The problem is is that if they can guarantee safety
uh post ten and here we are about to mark
a two year anniversary for the entire community of the
southern part of Israel, they cannot leave. That was part
of the commitment, and that the concern, you know, the
concern is as far and this was a part of
the back and forth with the original Trump proposal, that
(06:16):
there would be rehabilitation of Gaza and in the meantime
remove the population out there to Egypt or Jordan or
anywhere else while Gaza is being cleansed and rehabilitated. Of course,
the Egyptians Andre Dainians bulked with that, let's not forget
that Gazins are indeed Egyptians, and what does that tell
you about Egypt. But I'm not willing to take their
own brethren. That being said, I think that there is uh,
(06:40):
there is a desire or an attempt at leave facade
to try to move along create calm in the area,
given the amount of suffering that's been happening. But any
group that goes in whether be Arab or especially European
is going to be a target. I mean there is
no way that you know Hamas you know the the
Raeli's hope. I mean that you know the fact that
(07:02):
they've been able to take out you know, key members
of Hamasis leadership and create this array. But there's always
somebody else around the corner. How much come and lull
does that create the process that.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Entire exercise has proven to.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
You know, come back and bite them as we saw
with ten seven, because that has been happening since two
thousand and eight and onward.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Uh So that's the challenge. Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
That being said, somebody has to give it the good
old college try, which is what you're seeing happening now.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Okay, I got just a few seconds here. Uh if
you were a betting man, do you think that on
the last calendar day of this year there will be
something like a piece process going on between Israel and Gaza.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
If I'm a betting man, I think there'll be some
kind of architecture that would be you know, that would
be attempted to be implemented, whether or I'm seriously doubtful
there'll be something in place that will be trustworthy the
on the Israeli side, and I think that that's the
other part in the In the second that I have
left is going to be a question about is Israel
(08:07):
going to go to elections.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
That's going to be a domestic issue at large.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
But if there but you know, the bottom line is
if the hostages are not back home, debt and alive,
this is going to be a non starter. That's the
only thing that's going to start any kind of conversation whatsoever. Otherwise,
all twenty points are moot.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
If there is no hostages back home, I could agree
with you more.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
And I would also say, just as a parting note,
I am, I guess, not that surprised, but very disappointed
that these Europeans and Australia as well, would would reward
hamas reward mass murder by declaring that they recognize a
(08:48):
Palestinian state two years after the Palestinians proved to any
people who still weren't sure about this that they don't
deserve a state. Do you want to just offer one
last thought on that one hundred it's.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Rewarding terrorism, and there's no reason for that whatsoever. It's
a fantasy, it's not a reality. And the Palestinians haven't
done anything whatsoever to show any kind of movement for
actual actionable terms as far as taking responsibility for their
own people. And all they do is they live on
the propaganda which allows them to be the victims of
(09:21):
the world, with no responsibility and no accountability. And then
the Israelis left in this lull, in this limbo situation asap.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Fro Morowski is executive director of the Association for the
Study of Middle East and Africa as well as of
Scholars for Peace in the Middle East. Thanks for your time,
great guest. Asaph will definitely have you back. Thank you,
thank you.
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