Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I had a couple of guests on the show yesterday
from the organization Save Old Littleton, and I've got another
guest from the same organization right now. Corey Palmerrow is
one of the founding members of Save Old Littleton, and
he and his friends in the organization are against some
(00:22):
proposed new residential zoning modifications in Littleton, and I want
you to know that I expect two hours from now
to have the Mayor of Littleton on the show, who
I expect will take the other side of the argument.
I also want to note that especially here in Colorado,
(00:43):
where housing availability and housing affordability is such an issue,
the governor wants to deal with there, everybody wants to
deal with it.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Even if you.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Don't live in Littleton, you should pay close attention to
this conversation because this issue is likely coming to your
neighborhood or a neighborhood near you. Corey palmerw welcome to KOA.
It's good to have you in studio with me. Hey,
thanks Ross.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
So why don't we start with just the highest level
of stuff here.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
For folks who maybe missed the conversation yesterday, what is
the Littleton City Council proposing.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, so ordnance the thirty thirty one two zero two
four is is a plan to allow single family lots
small or big to have up to four four multi units.
I believe it's it's it's similar setbacks. It's a kind
of the same footprint of the residential structure that's existing,
(01:39):
you know, but you can go up higher, you can
go down lower. So if you took a you know,
a three bedroom, eighteen hundred and one story ranch, you know,
in essence, you could have two and a half levels
a level below, you know, you could you could grow
that to forty five hundred square feet and you could
split it up into four up to four units. What
(02:01):
does the city council?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
What problem does the city council say they are addressing
with this, Because normally people would propose this kind of
thing in order to increase housing affordability. Yeah, but if
you're going to replace one fairly expensive house with three
or four equally expensive town homes, I'm not sure how
that helps the claimed problem. I mean, more supply is
(02:24):
always better, I suppose, But what do you think they're
trying to solve?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You know, I'm I'm a developer, builder, I've been in
Colorado now for twenty two years, and I've done a
lot of this type of product anywhere from you know,
scrapes four plexus all the way to three or four
hundred union apartment complexes. They say it's affordable, but they've
also agreed that it's probably not going to start out
being affordable. I think you know what their idea is
(02:51):
is that more means less, and that if they increase
product in any form or fashion, the end result, you know,
like you've seen in Austin or some other large cities,
is pricing would come down eventually. And you know, to
that point, we're not in Austin. We're a Littleton and
and I would I would, I would associate Austin with
(03:11):
a city like Denver. A lot of people are leaving Denver,
a lot of people that didn't want to leave density
or moving to places like ours, just like me. I
moved to Littleton two years ago from the Cressmore area.
And what you're gonna draw is is you're going to
draw people that want that have money, that want to
get out of big cities because they could work remote
if they want to, and and live more in an
(03:31):
urban setting. So I think what's going to happen with
the way the zoning is proposed as is is you're
going to have a lot of a lot of scrapes,
a lot of six to seven hundred thousand dollars ranch style,
older older homes with large lots scraped, and you're gonna
see a lot of million to one point two million
dollar U mix mix mixed residents being placed in its steed.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I'm torn, just as a matter of basic economics, whether
increasing supply will have an effect on decreasing the price
of housing if the increasing supply ends up being what
you expect it will be, which is high dollar product.
So I don't know that it solves that problem. And
you know, I wonder if I want to be I
(04:17):
don't want to attribute negative motives to the members of
the Littleton City Council. I'm going to assume they're doing
the best they can, and I'm going to assume that
they're considering things I haven't thought of, because they do
this all the time, and you probably know things that
I wouldn't have thought of either. I wonder if some
part of this would be an interest in increasing property
tax revenues.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I think you know, in specific to my neighborhood. I
think that that is an incentive. I will say, you
know again to the point, just because they keep going
back to Austin. When Austin I have roots there and
I've built a lot in Austin. When they overbuild, everybody overbuild.
So when Denver overbuilds, when Littleton overbuilds, when all the
secondary cities overbuild, which we're not there yet, then you'll
(05:00):
see some decrease in pricing after pricing has gone through
the room. You know, in this game, you really don't
want to be the first people, or the second people,
or the third people to do the ordinance they're proposing.
You want to be the last. You want to be
the last as a sub community because at that point
the gentrification has already happened. If you're if you're doing
(05:22):
this too soon, which is what I think the way
this is proposed is too soon for Littleton. I think
all you're going to get is gentrification. And if that's
their motive to to raise, you know, to increase revenue,
I think that they're right on track because that's exactly
what they're going to do.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It is sort of an odd thing to talk about
the concept of gentrification usually when I think of gentrification.
I used to live in Chicago near Cabrini Green. I
don't know if you know any of that, and somehow
magically friends of the mayors ended up buying a whole
bunch of real estate right around there, just before the
mayor decided to shut down Cabrini Green and and and move.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Those folks south.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
In any case, that was a neighborhood that was very poor, dirty, whatever,
And over time you started having the yuppies moved in
move in, and it went from being poor to being
middle to upper middle class.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
And that's what I think of as gentrifying.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Now when you're talking about gentrifying, and I'm not saying
you're wrong, but it's just interesting conceptually to think that
what you kind of mean is not going from a
one hundred thousand dollars house to a five hundred thousand
dollars house, but going from a six hundred thousand dollars
house to an eight hundred thousand dollars town home, which
is four or four of them or four of them,
which is it's so it's not it's going to change
(06:36):
the character of a neighborhood potentially without actually changing the
type of people who.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Live in the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
They're all going to be the type of people you described, right,
you know, professionals with money who don't want to live
in the city anymore.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah. If you look at the Highlands area, Sloan's Lake area, yeah, Mayfair,
That's that's the area I was in. You know, I
bought a lot there. I scraped a house there for
like three hundred and seventy five thousand back in twenty
and fourteen before a lot of the stripes to happen.
I mean, that land itself is now worth eight hundred
(07:09):
grand because of what's what's taking place, and it pushes
out a lot of the original people, which I think
is what you're going to see, you know, at the
onset Now. I would like to say for myself, and
this is speaking for myself, I'm not against density. I
mean I'm in the world of density, and yesity is
what allows me to generate an income. My argument has
been specifically for my neighborhood, which is front Range Road
(07:31):
and two very important points that you know. I'm not
saying the city is breaking code, but I will say
that what the city is doing to my neighborhood will
give the potential for the code, the code to be
broken that affects life safety and neighborhoods. And that's due
to access points and the amount of homes that could
(07:53):
be serviced by our access point.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yes, so let's stick with this for a second, because
this just came up recently as you and your group
or you know, looking carefully at these proposed ordinances.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Can you get into this a.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Little bit more what you think the issues might be
regarding objections from a fire department.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I guess it's South Metro that has Littleton. Yeah, so
you know, I try and stick to facts in an argument,
and first, you know, I think that something this large
should be decided by the popular voat. With that said,
I'm not against density, and I think we do need
affordable we need plans to do it. Typically density, you know,
(08:32):
you look at your arterier roads, you look at where
Metro RTD transportation is, you look at inner city walkability
issues to verify where the best areas are too add density.
But for us, specifically Front Range Road, we have a
twenty four foot road, standard sized roads at thirty six,
so we have an undersized road. We have no sidewalks,
(08:52):
we have no curb and gutter. When we walk around,
we walk on a street, we have one access point
that it's fifty four single family homes. So as a builder,
you know, the first thing I want to do is investigate,
you know, what's allowable. It just doesn't feel right that
you can add a lot of density to a neighborhood
has one access point because anything that you add there
is going to float through a one access point. And
what I found is, uh, there is code related to
(09:14):
this that that is fire code. There's ic C twenty
twenty one, I believe D one oh seven one. It
specifically says and this is this is straight from you
know code and what the City of Littleton is adopted
as code to use as well as South Metro that
if you only have one access point, you can only
have up to thirty units thirty residents for one access point,
(09:35):
and you have more, but your grandfather because the bothered
in then it goes to say that okay, well, okay,
you can have more with one access point, but then
you have then everything has to be sprinkled, which means
an internal fire suppression NFPR thirteen D sprinker system. Right,
we don't have so you know. I want to make
that point that if you if you give a path
(09:56):
to increase density in my neighborhood, you're you're compounding on
a problem that already exist in my neighborhood, which is
a life safety issue. The second point goes back to
the road. It's a twenty four foot road. Standard size
for fire access is twenty six feet, which thirty six
feet gives you when you have parking on both sides.
When you're parking on both sides of a thirty six
foot street, you have a twenty six foot lane for
a fire to truck to get through. Well, we have
(10:17):
parking on our twenty four foot road. When Heritag High
School has a track meet, I mean we have overflow.
They're parked on our twenty four foot road. So maybe
you have a fourteen foot white access point. So yeah,
all right at that point too. Okay, I'll play Devil's
advocate for a second. All right, Corey, your neighborhood, I'm
going to go with you can't have more density for
the reasons you just describe.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
But that doesn't mean that the next neighborhood up the
road that has a bigger road.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
And all that.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So why don't we go ahead and pass this thing
to allow more density, but with restrictions in neighborhoods that
can't have it for other reasons likes because of fire coat.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
That is specifically what I've asked them to do.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So, I mean, it's it seems to me that if
you're right about the code, and I assume you are,
that the code would trump anything else anyway, right you
You you couldn't build that density there even if the
zoning were changed.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, and how would that that would not be fair
to developer? I mean they're they're advertising that these lots
now have four lots, and so many goes and buys it. Yeah,
with the impression they could put four lots up and
just the money and then and then finds the come
out that they can. So are you saying that there
are that there are instances in which, if this change
were to pass, that somewhere.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
In Littleton a house could be knocked down and replaced
with it with a three plex and you'd be okay
with that.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
This is a major apartment complex. I mean, when you're
doing when you're doing heavy density stuff, it gets approved
by everybody, including the fire department. But when you're when
you're doing more residential or you're you're building a duplex
or quadplex, the oversight's not as much. No, that's not
my question. And Mike already got your planning right.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So my question is about about you, about you personally,
So your your opinion. Yeah, go with my hypothetical neighborhood
up the road that has big roads and plenty and
all that, and and and you know, some random dude
named John owns a house that's worth six hundred thousand
(12:13):
dollars in there, and and and you go to him
as a developer and say, I'll buy your house for
six fifty Yeah, and I'm going to build a three
plex on it, and I'm going to sell each of
them for for.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Six fifty Yeah. Are you fine with that? Yeah? Yeah,
fine with that. I'm speaking for myself out the organization. Yeah,
my fight. My argument has been to protect my neighborhood
specifically and others like it. I do not think you
could add density to areas that cannot handle the density.
(12:47):
I think you're rightly.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I think you're right so, but Sabled Littleton seems to
be on a broader mandate than what you are describing
right now.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Personally, like your colleagues who were.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
With me yesterday, we all have they would not be
okay with what I just described.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I agree with you, and I would say to that
that that members of we have. There's there's kind of
like two parties here. They've got, well you got three,
you got the city who really should just be the mediator.
You've got vibrant Littleton that's for this as it stands,
and you have sable Littleton that's against this as it stands.
I am against this as it stands. Now, I say
both sides need to come up with their deal breaker list,
(13:26):
and then we need to go to the city with
our deal breaker list, and we need to come to
an agreement, a final agreement where everybody goes, huh, well, okay,
I guess we'll do it, because that's a good agreement,
and and and and there has to be compromised there.
He just hasn't been any compromise. And I even asked
the leadership of a vibrant Lilytleton, I'm like, what are
your what will you allow? I mean, what's the common ground?
(13:47):
I'm all for that. I've had to negotiate very very
complicated disputes and when I do it, no one's happy.
And that's a good deal, right with you. You know, that's
where we have to get to. And so so far
I've been stonewalled with my points, and I think my
points are extremely valid, all.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Right, So I just want to want to finish up here.
So I think there's supposed to be a vote on
this tonight at the Littleton City Council, right, and were
your colleagues and I were telling people where and when
they could go five o'clock tonight at twenty two to
fifty five Westbury Avenue. I believe in Littleton if they
want to make their voices heard at this point, and
I don't know how tired are tied in you are
(14:20):
to the nuts and bolts of the politics at this point.
What's your guess on that vote? A pass, a fail,
or a postpone?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
You know. I was at a South Metro Fire Department
meeting last night and surprisingly I was the only speaker.
They haven't had a speaker in like a year from
the public. So schools laid back, really got to go
over my issues and they agreed with my points. In fact,
one of them even said, why does the city just postpone?
This until you know, we can find common ground. They
(14:48):
didn't seem to be fully in the loop on everything,
which really surprised me, you know, because I was told
by the City of Littleton that the fire department was
in full approval of this as it stands, and what
was clarified is that they are in approval if it
meets code.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So just to again, just to do you have It's
not really important, but do you have a prediction as
to what happens tonight?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I hope it gets postponed and a better plan gets
but in place that more people can agree to.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, you know, I think I don't know. Yeah, a
lot's happened over the last twenty four hours here. Your
colleagues at Stabled at Sabled Littleton seems to think that
it would pass and that their next step would be
to suit to overturn it.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
But I hope you're right. Yeah, I mean, I hope.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
That the members of Littleton City Council. I don't really
have a I'm not really taking a position on this.
I want I want there to be transparent government. I
want people. It's very hard to balance wanting to increase
density and honoring property rights with also honoring the fact
that people bought into neighborhoods and made neighborhoods because they
(15:51):
have a particular character.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
And not wanting the character or the neighborhood to change.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
It's a difficult balance, and I guess that's why we
elect these politicians. And it just seems to me at
the moment that probably there's a little too much discord
on this, and I do hope they postpone it. And
you know, it could be also, I should say, it
could also be the fact or the case that many
residents of Littleton had the opportunity to learn about this
and chime in on it and simply didn't until somebody
(16:17):
found out about it and started making a lot of noise.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Maybe noise should have been made earlier.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
But in any cases being made now, I'll give you
the last seventeen seconds because I like prime numbers.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, I would say for Sableed Little ten, it's made
up by a lot of professional, fair good individuals, and
I would vouch for us that we would put our
hand out, extend a hand to come to compromise if
others are willing to do so.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And I hope that ends up being the case. Thanks
for having me. Yeah, glad to do it. Corey Palmerrow
is a founding member of Save Old Littleton. You can
check out Sabold Littleton dot com.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
The vote on this tonight you can, I think doors
open at five pm at the Littleton City Building at.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Twenty two to fifty five Westbury Avenue if you want
to just go listen.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Or make your voice heard.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I'm not sure what all they're going to do as
far as taking comments, and I want you to know
at about eleven thirty where I expect to have the
Mayor of Littleton on the show to talk about this
issue and he'll give his perspective. I assume he's for it,
but I don't want to put words in his mouth,
so that'll be coming up
I had a couple of guests on the show yesterday
from the organization Save Old Littleton, and I've got another
guest from the same organization right now. Corey Palmerrow is
one of the founding members of Save Old Littleton, and
he and his friends in the organization are against some
(00:22):
proposed new residential zoning modifications in Littleton, and I want
you to know that I expect two hours from now
to have the Mayor of Littleton on the show, who
I expect will take the other side of the argument.
I also want to note that especially here in Colorado,
(00:43):
where housing availability and housing affordability is such an issue,
the governor wants to deal with there, everybody wants to
deal with it.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Even if you.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Don't live in Littleton, you should pay close attention to
this conversation because this issue is likely coming to your
neighborhood or a neighborhood near you. Corey palmerw welcome to KOA.
It's good to have you in studio with me. Hey,
thanks Ross.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
So why don't we start with just the highest level
of stuff here.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
For folks who maybe missed the conversation yesterday, what is
the Littleton City Council proposing.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, so ordnance the thirty thirty one two zero two
four is is a plan to allow single family lots
small or big to have up to four four multi units.
I believe it's it's it's similar setbacks. It's a kind
of the same footprint of the residential structure that's existing,
(01:39):
you know, but you can go up higher, you can
go down lower. So if you took a you know,
a three bedroom, eighteen hundred and one story ranch, you know,
in essence, you could have two and a half levels
a level below, you know, you could you could grow
that to forty five hundred square feet and you could
split it up into four up to four units. What
(02:01):
does the city council?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
What problem does the city council say they are addressing
with this, Because normally people would propose this kind of
thing in order to increase housing affordability. Yeah, but if
you're going to replace one fairly expensive house with three
or four equally expensive town homes, I'm not sure how
that helps the claimed problem. I mean, more supply is
(02:24):
always better, I suppose, But what do you think they're
trying to solve?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You know, I'm I'm a developer, builder, I've been in
Colorado now for twenty two years, and I've done a
lot of this type of product anywhere from you know,
scrapes four plexus all the way to three or four
hundred union apartment complexes. They say it's affordable, but they've
also agreed that it's probably not going to start out
being affordable. I think you know what their idea is
(02:51):
is that more means less, and that if they increase
product in any form or fashion, the end result, you know,
like you've seen in Austin or some other large cities,
is pricing would come down eventually. And you know, to
that point, we're not in Austin. We're a Littleton and
and I would I would, I would associate Austin with
(03:11):
a city like Denver. A lot of people are leaving Denver,
a lot of people that didn't want to leave density
or moving to places like ours, just like me. I
moved to Littleton two years ago from the Cressmore area.
And what you're gonna draw is is you're going to
draw people that want that have money, that want to
get out of big cities because they could work remote
if they want to, and and live more in an
(03:31):
urban setting. So I think what's going to happen with
the way the zoning is proposed as is is you're
going to have a lot of a lot of scrapes,
a lot of six to seven hundred thousand dollars ranch style,
older older homes with large lots scraped, and you're gonna
see a lot of million to one point two million
dollar U mix mix mixed residents being placed in its steed.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I'm torn, just as a matter of basic economics, whether
increasing supply will have an effect on decreasing the price
of housing if the increasing supply ends up being what
you expect it will be, which is high dollar product.
So I don't know that it solves that problem. And
you know, I wonder if I want to be I
(04:17):
don't want to attribute negative motives to the members of
the Littleton City Council. I'm going to assume they're doing
the best they can, and I'm going to assume that
they're considering things I haven't thought of, because they do
this all the time, and you probably know things that
I wouldn't have thought of either. I wonder if some
part of this would be an interest in increasing property
tax revenues.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I think you know, in specific to my neighborhood. I
think that that is an incentive. I will say, you
know again to the point, just because they keep going
back to Austin. When Austin I have roots there and
I've built a lot in Austin. When they overbuild, everybody overbuild.
So when Denver overbuilds, when Littleton overbuilds, when all the
secondary cities overbuild, which we're not there yet, then you'll
(05:00):
see some decrease in pricing after pricing has gone through
the room. You know, in this game, you really don't
want to be the first people, or the second people,
or the third people to do the ordinance they're proposing.
You want to be the last. You want to be
the last as a sub community because at that point
the gentrification has already happened. If you're if you're doing
(05:22):
this too soon, which is what I think the way
this is proposed is too soon for Littleton. I think
all you're going to get is gentrification. And if that's
their motive to to raise, you know, to increase revenue,
I think that they're right on track because that's exactly
what they're going to do.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It is sort of an odd thing to talk about
the concept of gentrification usually when I think of gentrification.
I used to live in Chicago near Cabrini Green. I
don't know if you know any of that, and somehow
magically friends of the mayors ended up buying a whole
bunch of real estate right around there, just before the
mayor decided to shut down Cabrini Green and and and move.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Those folks south.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
In any case, that was a neighborhood that was very poor, dirty, whatever,
And over time you started having the yuppies moved in
move in, and it went from being poor to being
middle to upper middle class.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
And that's what I think of as gentrifying.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Now when you're talking about gentrifying, and I'm not saying
you're wrong, but it's just interesting conceptually to think that
what you kind of mean is not going from a
one hundred thousand dollars house to a five hundred thousand
dollars house, but going from a six hundred thousand dollars
house to an eight hundred thousand dollars town home, which
is four or four of them or four of them,
which is it's so it's not it's going to change
(06:36):
the character of a neighborhood potentially without actually changing the
type of people who.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Live in the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
They're all going to be the type of people you described, right,
you know, professionals with money who don't want to live
in the city anymore.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah. If you look at the Highlands area, Sloan's Lake area, yeah, Mayfair,
That's that's the area I was in. You know, I
bought a lot there. I scraped a house there for
like three hundred and seventy five thousand back in twenty
and fourteen before a lot of the stripes to happen.
I mean, that land itself is now worth eight hundred
(07:09):
grand because of what's what's taking place, and it pushes
out a lot of the original people, which I think
is what you're going to see, you know, at the
onset Now. I would like to say for myself, and
this is speaking for myself, I'm not against density. I
mean I'm in the world of density, and yesity is
what allows me to generate an income. My argument has
been specifically for my neighborhood, which is front Range Road
(07:31):
and two very important points that you know. I'm not
saying the city is breaking code, but I will say
that what the city is doing to my neighborhood will
give the potential for the code, the code to be
broken that affects life safety and neighborhoods. And that's due
to access points and the amount of homes that could
(07:53):
be serviced by our access point.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yes, so let's stick with this for a second, because
this just came up recently as you and your group
or you know, looking carefully at these proposed ordinances.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Can you get into this a.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Little bit more what you think the issues might be
regarding objections from a fire department.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I guess it's South Metro that has Littleton. Yeah, so
you know, I try and stick to facts in an argument,
and first, you know, I think that something this large
should be decided by the popular voat. With that said,
I'm not against density, and I think we do need
affordable we need plans to do it. Typically density, you know,
(08:32):
you look at your arterier roads, you look at where
Metro RTD transportation is, you look at inner city walkability
issues to verify where the best areas are too add density.
But for us, specifically Front Range Road, we have a
twenty four foot road, standard sized roads at thirty six,
so we have an undersized road. We have no sidewalks,
(08:52):
we have no curb and gutter. When we walk around,
we walk on a street, we have one access point
that it's fifty four single family homes. So as a builder,
you know, the first thing I want to do is investigate,
you know, what's allowable. It just doesn't feel right that
you can add a lot of density to a neighborhood
has one access point because anything that you add there
is going to float through a one access point. And
what I found is, uh, there is code related to
(09:14):
this that that is fire code. There's ic C twenty
twenty one, I believe D one oh seven one. It
specifically says and this is this is straight from you
know code and what the City of Littleton is adopted
as code to use as well as South Metro that
if you only have one access point, you can only
have up to thirty units thirty residents for one access point,
(09:35):
and you have more, but your grandfather because the bothered
in then it goes to say that okay, well, okay,
you can have more with one access point, but then
you have then everything has to be sprinkled, which means
an internal fire suppression NFPR thirteen D sprinker system. Right,
we don't have so you know. I want to make
that point that if you if you give a path
(09:56):
to increase density in my neighborhood, you're you're compounding on
a problem that already exist in my neighborhood, which is
a life safety issue. The second point goes back to
the road. It's a twenty four foot road. Standard size
for fire access is twenty six feet, which thirty six
feet gives you when you have parking on both sides.
When you're parking on both sides of a thirty six
foot street, you have a twenty six foot lane for
a fire to truck to get through. Well, we have
(10:17):
parking on our twenty four foot road. When Heritag High
School has a track meet, I mean we have overflow.
They're parked on our twenty four foot road. So maybe
you have a fourteen foot white access point. So yeah,
all right at that point too. Okay, I'll play Devil's
advocate for a second. All right, Corey, your neighborhood, I'm
going to go with you can't have more density for
the reasons you just describe.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
But that doesn't mean that the next neighborhood up the
road that has a bigger road.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
And all that.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So why don't we go ahead and pass this thing
to allow more density, but with restrictions in neighborhoods that
can't have it for other reasons likes because of fire coat.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
That is specifically what I've asked them to do.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So, I mean, it's it seems to me that if
you're right about the code, and I assume you are,
that the code would trump anything else anyway, right you
You you couldn't build that density there even if the
zoning were changed.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, and how would that that would not be fair
to developer? I mean they're they're advertising that these lots
now have four lots, and so many goes and buys it. Yeah,
with the impression they could put four lots up and
just the money and then and then finds the come
out that they can. So are you saying that there
are that there are instances in which, if this change
were to pass, that somewhere.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
In Littleton a house could be knocked down and replaced
with it with a three plex and you'd be okay
with that.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
This is a major apartment complex. I mean, when you're
doing when you're doing heavy density stuff, it gets approved
by everybody, including the fire department. But when you're when
you're doing more residential or you're you're building a duplex
or quadplex, the oversight's not as much. No, that's not
my question. And Mike already got your planning right.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So my question is about about you, about you personally,
So your your opinion. Yeah, go with my hypothetical neighborhood
up the road that has big roads and plenty and
all that, and and and you know, some random dude
named John owns a house that's worth six hundred thousand
(12:13):
dollars in there, and and and you go to him
as a developer and say, I'll buy your house for
six fifty Yeah, and I'm going to build a three
plex on it, and I'm going to sell each of
them for for.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Six fifty Yeah. Are you fine with that? Yeah? Yeah,
fine with that. I'm speaking for myself out the organization. Yeah,
my fight. My argument has been to protect my neighborhood
specifically and others like it. I do not think you
could add density to areas that cannot handle the density.
(12:47):
I think you're rightly.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I think you're right so, but Sabled Littleton seems to
be on a broader mandate than what you are describing
right now.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Personally, like your colleagues who were.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
With me yesterday, we all have they would not be
okay with what I just described.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I agree with you, and I would say to that
that that members of we have. There's there's kind of
like two parties here. They've got, well you got three,
you got the city who really should just be the mediator.
You've got vibrant Littleton that's for this as it stands,
and you have sable Littleton that's against this as it stands.
I am against this as it stands. Now, I say
both sides need to come up with their deal breaker list,
(13:26):
and then we need to go to the city with
our deal breaker list, and we need to come to
an agreement, a final agreement where everybody goes, huh, well, okay,
I guess we'll do it, because that's a good agreement,
and and and and there has to be compromised there.
He just hasn't been any compromise. And I even asked
the leadership of a vibrant Lilytleton, I'm like, what are
your what will you allow? I mean, what's the common ground?
(13:47):
I'm all for that. I've had to negotiate very very
complicated disputes and when I do it, no one's happy.
And that's a good deal, right with you. You know, that's
where we have to get to. And so so far
I've been stonewalled with my points, and I think my
points are extremely valid, all.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Right, So I just want to want to finish up here.
So I think there's supposed to be a vote on
this tonight at the Littleton City Council, right, and were
your colleagues and I were telling people where and when
they could go five o'clock tonight at twenty two to
fifty five Westbury Avenue. I believe in Littleton if they
want to make their voices heard at this point, and
I don't know how tired are tied in you are
(14:20):
to the nuts and bolts of the politics at this point.
What's your guess on that vote? A pass, a fail,
or a postpone?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
You know. I was at a South Metro Fire Department
meeting last night and surprisingly I was the only speaker.
They haven't had a speaker in like a year from
the public. So schools laid back, really got to go
over my issues and they agreed with my points. In fact,
one of them even said, why does the city just postpone?
This until you know, we can find common ground. They
(14:48):
didn't seem to be fully in the loop on everything,
which really surprised me, you know, because I was told
by the City of Littleton that the fire department was
in full approval of this as it stands, and what
was clarified is that they are in approval if it
meets code.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So just to again, just to do you have It's
not really important, but do you have a prediction as
to what happens tonight?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I hope it gets postponed and a better plan gets
but in place that more people can agree to.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, you know, I think I don't know. Yeah, a
lot's happened over the last twenty four hours here. Your
colleagues at Stabled at Sabled Littleton seems to think that
it would pass and that their next step would be
to suit to overturn it.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
But I hope you're right. Yeah, I mean, I hope.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
That the members of Littleton City Council. I don't really
have a I'm not really taking a position on this.
I want I want there to be transparent government. I
want people. It's very hard to balance wanting to increase
density and honoring property rights with also honoring the fact
that people bought into neighborhoods and made neighborhoods because they
(15:51):
have a particular character.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
And not wanting the character or the neighborhood to change.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
It's a difficult balance, and I guess that's why we
elect these politicians. And it just seems to me at
the moment that probably there's a little too much discord
on this, and I do hope they postpone it. And
you know, it could be also, I should say, it
could also be the fact or the case that many
residents of Littleton had the opportunity to learn about this
and chime in on it and simply didn't until somebody
(16:17):
found out about it and started making a lot of noise.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Maybe noise should have been made earlier.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
But in any cases being made now, I'll give you
the last seventeen seconds because I like prime numbers.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, I would say for Sableed Little ten, it's made
up by a lot of professional, fair good individuals, and
I would vouch for us that we would put our
hand out, extend a hand to come to compromise if
others are willing to do so.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And I hope that ends up being the case. Thanks
for having me. Yeah, glad to do it. Corey Palmerrow
is a founding member of Save Old Littleton. You can
check out Sabold Littleton dot com.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
The vote on this tonight you can, I think doors
open at five pm at the Littleton City Building at.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Twenty two to fifty five Westbury Avenue if you want
to just go listen.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Or make your voice heard.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I'm not sure what all they're going to do as
far as taking comments, and I want you to know
at about eleven thirty where I expect to have the
Mayor of Littleton on the show to talk about this
issue and he'll give his perspective. I assume he's for it,
but I don't want to put words in his mouth,
so that'll be coming up
The Ross Kaminsky Show News
Popular Podcasts
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com