Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And I have this guest scheduled for a few minutes
from now, but since he's here, I think I'm going
to start now because I think this is an important
topic for a variety of reasons, but not least because
of an issue that's going to be on the way,
that is on the ballot in Denver right now, and
this being a vote by mail state, you have had
your ballots for two or three weeks already, so a
(00:21):
lot of people may have voted already, but also a
lot of folks wait till the very end, which will
be next Tuesday, to vote. So in Denver you are
going to have Referendum three to ten on the ballot,
which is about a ban on flavored tobacco products. This
is a ban that was passed by the city council,
and some folks who oppose the ban got enough signatures
(00:44):
together to get this measure on the ballot to overturn
the ban. It's a little bit tricky in that a
yes vote means no ban, Okay. The vote is on
whether to overturn it, not whether to ban the stuff.
And it's confusing, so if you vote in Denver, read
(01:05):
it carefully. But a yes vote is to overturn the
ban and restore what I will call freedom, and a
no vote is to keep the ban. Joining us to
talk about it is one of the nation's true, true
experts on tobacco cessation and treatment, and that's doctor Ray
Naiaia and gosh, I hope I'm not butchering your last
(01:25):
name from NYU, and thank you so much for making
time for us today.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Doc Hi, ro's great to be here. And yeah, the
last name is close enough, and you can just call
me Ray.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
All right, I'll do that. So I presume that, given
what you do for a living, that your objection to
the ban is based on public health more than anything
else or only.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, And I think one has to start by asking,
you know, why why do people want to ban you know,
what are the reasons behind wanting a band?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
And typically.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
People will say, well, you know, we don't want our kids,
our youth using tobacco products. Flavors you know, attract youth,
and so the idea is that we'll solve a problem, Well,
we'll solve a potential problem by banning flavors.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
But it's more complicated than that, because.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Actually tobacco youth among youth is at historic lows cigarette
smoking is almost you know, it's close to zero. I mean,
it's this This is the the historically the lowest that
our American youth population has been smoking cigarettes at. Now
(02:57):
there are you know, kids have used you know, vap products,
but even use of vap products is now trending down.
There was a peak around you know, twenty nineteen or so,
but that's trending down. People are concerned about the newer
nicotine pouch products like Zen, but the data don't. Well,
(03:22):
what the data say is that there's not much youth
use going on. So that's one side of it, you know,
what's the problem. The other side of it is that
we still have many, many adult cigarette smokers in the nation.
So roughly ten percent of the population smokes cigarettes. And
(03:47):
you know, the good thing to do would be to
help those folks to get off of cigarettes, either quitting
or moving to safer alternative products that.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Are out there.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And one of the things that helps smokers switch to,
to say for products, is the option of of flavors.
And so we know, you know, there have been many
studies looking at flavor bands in communities and you know,
(04:20):
other states, and they don't typically accomplish what you know,
the people hope will will accomplish.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
In fact, there's some evidence that.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Smoking rates go up when there are flavor bands on
other you know, alternative smoking products. So that's I mean,
from a public health perspective, that's not what you want.
So you know, again I understand the motivation, but it
(04:58):
you know, based on you know, recent experience in other places,
it just doesn't seem to work very well.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Okay, So for me, I care. I care a little
bit about the public health. Not that much though, as
a libertarian, at least with adults, you know, don't I
don't care what you put in your own body as
long as you know, drive under the influence. I care
a lot about freedom, and I do think an adult
should be able to, you know, put whatever he wants
(05:25):
into his own body. I do think, you know, selling
what I will loosely call drugs nicotine is a drug
in a way, but selling stuff to kids, I think
those penalties should be harsh and should be enforced. But
so I'm I'm with you in terms of how to
vote on this, I would vote to overturn the band
and I and I was against the band to begin with,
(05:47):
but I am going to play Devil's advocate for a.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Minute with you.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So, Doc, isn't it clear that with some of the
choices of flavors these companies create bubble gun and watermelon
and mango and whatever else, isn't it clear that they're
marketing to kids?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Well, that's the definitely the concern. Now we have to
make a distinction between the legal market and the not
so legal marketplace. So products that in fact go through
the review process that the Food and Drug Administration and
get authorized for sale have to the companies have to
(06:32):
demonstrate that, you know, their products are not kid friendly.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
And including flavors.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
So they actually have to gather data and and you know,
try to understand their consumers and make sure that their
products don't appeal, you know, too much to kids. The
problem that we have is that the marketplace is flooded
with you know, products from China mostly and and maybe
from some other places where they don't play by the rules.
(07:04):
And so that's why you see that you know, these
this crazy amount of flavors out there. So so I
agree that those products should be either you know, regulated
and or removed from from the marketplace. They have to
play by the rules they they need to go through
(07:24):
the review process.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
They're not doing that. So so from that point of view.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I you know, I think, yeah, if if we were
able to get rid of those products, we would also
get rid of that you know, crazy number of flavors
that that are out there and restrict them, you know,
probably to uh, you know, a manageable amount again that
(07:49):
the FDA can monitor and and uh and regulate with
their authority.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I know that it's difficult to measure an illegal but
do you have any sense of what percentage of the
demand for flavored vaping stuff is from adults and what
percent is for minors?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, so you know, roughly speaking, whether you're an adult
or a minor, everyone likes flavors more than the regular
taste of tobacco. So that's true for adults, it's true
for youth.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So uh.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So we you know, and and again that kind of
makes sense. You know, people enjoy flavors in you know,
in every you know, in everything, right, right.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
But.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
As I mentioned, you know, you have roughly eighty seventy
eighty percent of the market for things like vape products
in particular that are you know, coming in illegally and
and uh you know, essentially being sold sold illegally, and
(09:10):
so so that's where the exposure is coming from.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
It's from is from those products. Interesting, I need to
correct myself.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
This this measure is so confusing that I confused myself
with this vote on the Denver ballot to overturn the ban,
And then I realized now why I was confused, and
I accuse I accused myself. You know what we're talking
about the measure as as a ballot measure to overturn
the ban, but the way it's worded, a yes vote
(09:39):
actually keeps the ban in place, and and a no
vote overturns uh overturns the band. So just again I
confused myself and then I said the wrong thing to you, which.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I apologize for.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I urge you to vote no on that ballot measure
and overturn the ban as as we're talking about with
the doctor, both for public health reasons and for freedom reasons. Last,
very very quick thing, Dock, you mentioned in passing these
nicotine pouches, and I've never been you know, I've never
(10:12):
tried a cigarette, I've never tried a vape, I've never
done any of that. It seems like these nicotine pouches
are kind of growing as a as a business.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
What do we need to know about.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Them as far as how they fit into I'm not
looking to sell them as a recreational thing here on
the show. How do they fit into a person's potential
effort to get off of cigarettes.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well, I think they have a tremendous potential to do that.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
So one thing to so.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
You know, the FDA is already, as I mentioned before,
authorized one of the products in and they're reviewing other,
you know, similar products. Pouches are you know, from a
from a health perspective, actually pretty safe because all people
are getting out of them.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Is pretty much nicotine.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
So so they're made in a way that all all
the other toxic compounds that come with you know, tobacco
are eliminated from the pouches. And the other thing is
that people you know, do do get you know, a
decent amount of nicotine, but people can I think more
(11:28):
easily determine you know, how much nicotine they get by
using pouches. So from the point of view of a smoker,
you know, wanting to switch, pouches are I think a
pretty good option.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
And there's a little bit of data out there.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Suggesting that that that they can work that way that smokers,
you know, once they start using pouches will kind of
naturally migrate to the pouches and away from cigarettes.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
So that you know, that's to me, that's a win win.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I mean, you know it's you mentioned freedom, right, so
you know, you're not you're not coercing someone to make
the switch. They're just they're doing it on their own
because they they find the products to be to be satisfying.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And and I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
That that kind of freedom of choice makes sense because
you want educated consumers, you know who you know, make
decisions for themselves based on their own experiences and and information.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And that's what we should be providing to people.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
It's like, you know this, here's here are the options,
here's here's the good, the bad, et cetera, and kind
of let folks figure this stuff out, you know, on
their own.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Doctor Rainey Eira is a professor of Social and Behavioral
Sciences at NYU, one of the nation's leading experts on
tobacco dependence and treatment.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
He and I, for overlap reasons, urge you to vote
no on Referendum three ten in Denver and for public health,
and for freedom to overturn that man. Doc, thanks so
much for being here. Really appreciate it my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Thanks
And I have this guest scheduled for a few minutes
from now, but since he's here, I think I'm going
to start now because I think this is an important
topic for a variety of reasons, but not least because
of an issue that's going to be on the way,
that is on the ballot in Denver right now, and
this being a vote by mail state, you have had
your ballots for two or three weeks already, so a
(00:21):
lot of people may have voted already, but also a
lot of folks wait till the very end, which will
be next Tuesday, to vote. So in Denver you are
going to have Referendum three to ten on the ballot,
which is about a ban on flavored tobacco products. This
is a ban that was passed by the city council,
and some folks who oppose the ban got enough signatures
(00:44):
together to get this measure on the ballot to overturn
the ban. It's a little bit tricky in that a
yes vote means no ban, Okay. The vote is on
whether to overturn it, not whether to ban the stuff.
And it's confusing, so if you vote in Denver, read
(01:05):
it carefully. But a yes vote is to overturn the
ban and restore what I will call freedom, and a
no vote is to keep the ban. Joining us to
talk about it is one of the nation's true, true
experts on tobacco cessation and treatment, and that's doctor Ray
Naiaia and gosh, I hope I'm not butchering your last
(01:25):
name from NYU, and thank you so much for making
time for us today.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Doc Hi, ro's great to be here. And yeah, the
last name is close enough, and you can just call
me Ray.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
All right, I'll do that. So I presume that, given
what you do for a living, that your objection to
the ban is based on public health more than anything
else or only.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, And I think one has to start by asking,
you know, why why do people want to ban you know,
what are the reasons behind wanting a band?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
And typically.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
People will say, well, you know, we don't want our kids,
our youth using tobacco products. Flavors you know, attract youth,
and so the idea is that we'll solve a problem, Well,
we'll solve a potential problem by banning flavors.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
But it's more complicated than that, because.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Actually tobacco youth among youth is at historic lows cigarette
smoking is almost you know, it's close to zero. I mean,
it's this This is the the historically the lowest that
our American youth population has been smoking cigarettes at. Now
(02:57):
there are you know, kids have used you know, vap products,
but even use of vap products is now trending down.
There was a peak around you know, twenty nineteen or so,
but that's trending down. People are concerned about the newer
nicotine pouch products like Zen, but the data don't. Well,
(03:22):
what the data say is that there's not much youth
use going on. So that's one side of it, you know,
what's the problem. The other side of it is that
we still have many, many adult cigarette smokers in the nation.
So roughly ten percent of the population smokes cigarettes. And
(03:47):
you know, the good thing to do would be to
help those folks to get off of cigarettes, either quitting
or moving to safer alternative products that.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Are out there.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And one of the things that helps smokers switch to,
to say for products, is the option of of flavors.
And so we know, you know, there have been many
studies looking at flavor bands in communities and you know,
(04:20):
other states, and they don't typically accomplish what you know,
the people hope will will accomplish.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
In fact, there's some evidence that.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Smoking rates go up when there are flavor bands on
other you know, alternative smoking products. So that's I mean,
from a public health perspective, that's not what you want.
So you know, again I understand the motivation, but it
(04:58):
you know, based on you know, recent experience in other places,
it just doesn't seem to work very well.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Okay, So for me, I care. I care a little
bit about the public health. Not that much though, as
a libertarian, at least with adults, you know, don't I
don't care what you put in your own body as
long as you know, drive under the influence. I care
a lot about freedom, and I do think an adult
should be able to, you know, put whatever he wants
(05:25):
into his own body. I do think, you know, selling
what I will loosely call drugs nicotine is a drug
in a way, but selling stuff to kids, I think
those penalties should be harsh and should be enforced. But
so I'm I'm with you in terms of how to
vote on this, I would vote to overturn the band
and I and I was against the band to begin with,
(05:47):
but I am going to play Devil's advocate for a.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Minute with you.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So, Doc, isn't it clear that with some of the
choices of flavors these companies create bubble gun and watermelon
and mango and whatever else, isn't it clear that they're
marketing to kids?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Well, that's the definitely the concern. Now we have to
make a distinction between the legal market and the not
so legal marketplace. So products that in fact go through
the review process that the Food and Drug Administration and
get authorized for sale have to the companies have to
(06:32):
demonstrate that, you know, their products are not kid friendly.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
And including flavors.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
So they actually have to gather data and and you know,
try to understand their consumers and make sure that their
products don't appeal, you know, too much to kids. The
problem that we have is that the marketplace is flooded
with you know, products from China mostly and and maybe
from some other places where they don't play by the rules.
(07:04):
And so that's why you see that you know, these
this crazy amount of flavors out there. So so I
agree that those products should be either you know, regulated
and or removed from from the marketplace. They have to
play by the rules they they need to go through
(07:24):
the review process.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
They're not doing that. So so from that point of view.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I you know, I think, yeah, if if we were
able to get rid of those products, we would also
get rid of that you know, crazy number of flavors
that that are out there and restrict them, you know,
probably to uh, you know, a manageable amount again that
(07:49):
the FDA can monitor and and uh and regulate with
their authority.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I know that it's difficult to measure an illegal but
do you have any sense of what percentage of the
demand for flavored vaping stuff is from adults and what
percent is for minors?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, so you know, roughly speaking, whether you're an adult
or a minor, everyone likes flavors more than the regular
taste of tobacco. So that's true for adults, it's true
for youth.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So uh.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So we you know, and and again that kind of
makes sense. You know, people enjoy flavors in you know,
in every you know, in everything, right, right.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
But.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
As I mentioned, you know, you have roughly eighty seventy
eighty percent of the market for things like vape products
in particular that are you know, coming in illegally and
and uh you know, essentially being sold sold illegally, and
(09:10):
so so that's where the exposure is coming from.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
It's from is from those products. Interesting, I need to
correct myself.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
This this measure is so confusing that I confused myself
with this vote on the Denver ballot to overturn the ban,
And then I realized now why I was confused, and
I accuse I accused myself. You know what we're talking
about the measure as as a ballot measure to overturn
the ban, but the way it's worded, a yes vote
(09:39):
actually keeps the ban in place, and and a no
vote overturns uh overturns the band. So just again I
confused myself and then I said the wrong thing to you, which.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I apologize for.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I urge you to vote no on that ballot measure
and overturn the ban as as we're talking about with
the doctor, both for public health reasons and for freedom reasons. Last,
very very quick thing, Dock, you mentioned in passing these
nicotine pouches, and I've never been you know, I've never
(10:12):
tried a cigarette, I've never tried a vape, I've never
done any of that. It seems like these nicotine pouches
are kind of growing as a as a business.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
What do we need to know about.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Them as far as how they fit into I'm not
looking to sell them as a recreational thing here on
the show. How do they fit into a person's potential
effort to get off of cigarettes.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well, I think they have a tremendous potential to do that.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
So one thing to so.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
You know, the FDA is already, as I mentioned before,
authorized one of the products in and they're reviewing other,
you know, similar products. Pouches are you know, from a
from a health perspective, actually pretty safe because all people
are getting out of them.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Is pretty much nicotine.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
So so they're made in a way that all all
the other toxic compounds that come with you know, tobacco
are eliminated from the pouches. And the other thing is
that people you know, do do get you know, a
decent amount of nicotine, but people can I think more
(11:28):
easily determine you know, how much nicotine they get by
using pouches. So from the point of view of a smoker,
you know, wanting to switch, pouches are I think a
pretty good option.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
And there's a little bit of data out there.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Suggesting that that that they can work that way that smokers,
you know, once they start using pouches will kind of
naturally migrate to the pouches and away from cigarettes.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
So that you know, that's to me, that's a win win.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I mean, you know it's you mentioned freedom, right, so
you know, you're not you're not coercing someone to make
the switch. They're just they're doing it on their own
because they they find the products to be to be satisfying.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And and I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
That that kind of freedom of choice makes sense because
you want educated consumers, you know who you know, make
decisions for themselves based on their own experiences and and information.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And that's what we should be providing to people.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
It's like, you know this, here's here are the options,
here's here's the good, the bad, et cetera, and kind
of let folks figure this stuff out, you know, on
their own.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Doctor Rainey Eira is a professor of Social and Behavioral
Sciences at NYU, one of the nation's leading experts on
tobacco dependence and treatment.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
He and I, for overlap reasons, urge you to vote
no on Referendum three ten in Denver and for public health,
and for freedom to overturn that man. Doc, thanks so
much for being here. Really appreciate it my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Thanks
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