Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think you know that in a previous version of
my life, I co found it. I guess you would say,
with a couple of partners, a financial markets trading company,
and we had offices in different places, and I ran
the Chicago office, and we'd be involved with hiring people
and firing people and managing all the stuff that's going
on in the business. And I'll tell you there is
(00:22):
an immense amount that goes into being a good manager.
And I think I was a good manager, but I
don't think I was a great manager. And I also
don't love management, which I think is an important thing
as well. I think that I think that really great
managers enjoy that part of the job, and I didn't.
I really just wanted to go trade and just think
about markets and not do all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
But no one else was going to do it, so
I did.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And when it comes to all this, I think if
you're running a business, whether you love managing or you
just have to, you need to know how to do
some things right, and maybe even more importantly, you need
to know how to avoid some pitfalls. Us to talk
about one of them is Matt Matheson, who is an
entrepreneur and an investor and a co founder of MBL Partners,
(01:09):
and he advises companies and writes about leadership and management.
His new book is called Leadership Orbit and the website
is Leadership orbit dot com. And we're going to talk
a little bit about micro management, which is something I
always tried to avoid. I don't know if I did
avoid it well enough. But you might not think how
(01:29):
how big a problem this can be, but Matt thinks
it's potentially an enormous problem. So Matt Mathison, welcome to Kawa.
Thanks for being here, and glad you're a Broncos fan
even though you're living in Texas.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Ross, thank you, Thank you so much for having me.
Good morning, it's a pleasure to be here. Happy to
be here. And yes, back to back weeks with the
Broncos beaten two Texas teams.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
It's been fun.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I bet it reminds me when I when I first
moved to Chicago years and years ago, whatever year that
would have been, like nineteen eighty seven or something. I
went to a sports bar and I was a Redskins
fan because I was living in DC near DC at
the time. I went to a sports bar and watched
the Redskins Bears in a playoff game, and the Redskins
(02:13):
knocked the Bears out of the playoffs that year, and
I kind of had to slink out of there a
little bit just to not get beaten up, right, rooting
against the Bears in Chicago, So that might be how
you feel the rooting against the Cowboys or the Texans
in Texas.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Right, Yeah, absolutely, it's actually fun. I enjoy it a lot,
and like I said, it's been a great back to back.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
When you right that micro management doesn't always look like failure,
it looks like high standards, like urgency and like precision.
I love that line, and I can easily imagine it
now that you mentioned that, before we jump into what
it looks like. Just to make sure we're one thousand
(02:55):
percent on the same page, define micro management.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I believe micromanagement really is a culmination of two things.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
It's overly.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Distrusting your people right to actually follow through on your culture,
your mission, your you know what you're actually setting out
to do. So I believe micromanagement is a great distrust
and overly getting in the way of what makes us wonderful,
which is we are constantly moving and trying to advance
(03:30):
and progress, and that's what I believe.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Micromanagement is one of the things I can imagine. And
I don't know if this is a distinction without a difference.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
You can tell me. But on that thing about right.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Okay, I mistrust my employees and therefore I'm going to
look over their shoulders at everything they're doing. Is there
a difference that matters or is it a distinction without
a difference. If the mindset behind the micromanagement is my
people are actually good, it's just that I'm better and
they could benefit from me, is there anything there that
(04:06):
matters or is that irrelevant?
Speaker 4 (04:08):
No, it matters a lot. And here's why.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
If you're a solopreneur or you're not actually trying to
grow and scale, that logic both applies and makes a
lot of sense. You can be the king of all right,
and you can truly be better. But if you're a
business that wants to grow and scale and actually be valuable,
you have to do it beyond any individual, let alone yourself.
(04:35):
And so if you take that approach, even if it's
true for a season, you're actually fourteen your ability to
move forward in advance.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay, so what is the impact on employees or teams
of employees, if they're manager or managers micro manages them.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a couple of
things that I would highlight. One, it's a destroyer of momentum,
and momentum is a powerful thing. We want people to
actually gain this momentum feeling of taking action, making course corrections,
overcoming issues, getting sand out of the gear.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
We want that momentum. When we're overly micro.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Managing them, it's a destroyer of momentum. People have to wait.
People wait to make a decision, They wait for you
to step in and fix their problem, They wait for
your permission. That momentum killer slows everything down. And I
believe winning is less about making the right decision. It's
just it's more about the speed to ultimately fixing what's broken,
(05:44):
which is a continual thing. So that's one thing. It's
a destroyer of momentum. Second thing is if you don't
have a culture where people actually feel empowered to do.
And again, lots of every level of an organization different
job functions, doing means different things. But if they don't
feel empowered to do and make decisions, you create you
(06:09):
actually create your worst nightmare. You actually create people that
are dependent on you or something else to make a
decision for him, as opposed to creating a culture where
there's an empowerment to make things happen.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
We're talking with Matt Matheson. His new book is Leadership Orbit.
The website leadership orbit dot com if you want to
check out the book. So, I wonder if you might
share with us one or two stories from your own
time advising businesses where you have found a manager or
(06:44):
the management class in a particular business, maybe many of
them micromanaging their employees, the harm it was causing, and
how you got them to change, and how.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
That worked out. Can you have even just one story
like that?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Sure, I can give there's I have a lot of
examples of this, and again I think we oftentimes fall
into it. I'll give both a sports analogy and then
a very specific business analogy. In business, I have been
part of many organizations, both directly and indirectly, whether through
just passive investing or advising or playing some other role.
And in one company in particular, there was this culture
(07:25):
that no one could actually make a decision without getting
this one individual.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
He wasn't even the.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
CEO by the way, but right he held all the cards,
and no one could do anything without this one person's
like blessing, and they would get bludgeoned if they did.
And that literally grinded a whole company to halt. It
was it's a technology company, and as you know, on technology,
things move very fast, and you actually had very capable
(07:55):
and competent and visionary people at the helm and they
were literally it was like you were you were walking
into something where just full paralysis. And it wasn't paralysis
by analysis. It was paralysis by micromanagement. And it was
I mean, you could taste it, you could feel it.
It was palpable. Removing this individual was painful and messy,
(08:21):
but as soon as this person was removed, it was
almost just like the lid, you know, people just they
could feel this empowerment kind of seepin.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
That was a technology company.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Actually, I talk about that particular company in my book.
It's actually a very large Chinese conglomerate company. Crazy story
of what actually happened, but there was a moment in
which this individual, not the CEO, not the actual operating head,
but the chairman of the company ultimately brought it to
its knees. Fascinating story in sports, I think we oftentimes
(08:54):
think about and I think the Denver Broncos may have
their own kind of version of this.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
And even though great season, good wins.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Oftentimes you hear about a very athletic quarterback.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
That's like, oh, I want them to be a pocket.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Passer, and it's you can almost feel like the micro
management in their minds seep in where they can be
they're less athletic and they're reacting less.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
And there's just this season of like that.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
It's things just don't work that well when you kind
of take away someone's ability to just be an athlete,
make decisions, go And so it's a it's a tough balance.
I like to say, micro manage the process, not the people.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
You're going to micromanage anything. Micro manage the process.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
So having a system, having a culture, having you know,
standard operating procedures, you can micromanage that because those are standards.
But don't let that seep into managing or micromanaging the people.
Let them work within that system and just be great
and fail and learn and get better.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
And I think that's how things move forward.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Okay, last question for you, and it's kind of a
big one.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
So what if there are people listening to the show
right now who are business owners and business managers, what
should they look for in themselves, or I should say,
and in their highest level of employees right under them,
those who are managing others to look for signs that hey,
(10:24):
we're drifting into micromanagement here.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Yeah, how so this would be the reflection point when
something goes wrong, when someone does something wrong, what is
the knee jerk reaction for a leader, for the executive
team whatever. Do they drop in and fix it or
do they actually empower and enforce this culture of both accountability, Hey,
(10:51):
something went wrong, but like praise for how fast did
we figure it out? And how fast did you course correct?
And what do you need to actually make a better
decision going forward. There's a difference between going in and
fixing versus empowering the people and creating this culture where
they're continually fixing and updating and improving.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
That distinction. Do I go in and just I'll screw it,
it's just easier for me to do it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Or do I let them figure that out and do
I praise them for that? That's to me the reflection
of am I actually creeping into micromanagement phase or am
I actually creating this culture of empowerment.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Matt Matheson's new book is Leadership Orbit. You can go
to the website at leadership orbit dot com and I
think you'll learn a lot and hopefully help you run
your business, whether you own it, whether you management, manage it,
run it.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Better and get the most out of your employees.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Matt Matheson, thanks for your time, really interesting conversation.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Thanks Ross, have a great day. Okay, you too.
I think you know that in a previous version of
my life, I co found it. I guess you would say,
with a couple of partners, a financial markets trading company,
and we had offices in different places, and I ran
the Chicago office, and we'd be involved with hiring people
and firing people and managing all the stuff that's going
on in the business. And I'll tell you there is
(00:22):
an immense amount that goes into being a good manager.
And I think I was a good manager, but I
don't think I was a great manager. And I also
don't love management, which I think is an important thing
as well. I think that I think that really great
managers enjoy that part of the job, and I didn't.
I really just wanted to go trade and just think
about markets and not do all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
But no one else was going to do it, so
I did.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And when it comes to all this, I think if
you're running a business, whether you love managing or you
just have to, you need to know how to do
some things right, and maybe even more importantly, you need
to know how to avoid some pitfalls. Us to talk
about one of them is Matt Matheson, who is an
entrepreneur and an investor and a co founder of MBL Partners,
(01:09):
and he advises companies and writes about leadership and management.
His new book is called Leadership Orbit and the website
is Leadership orbit dot com. And we're going to talk
a little bit about micro management, which is something I
always tried to avoid. I don't know if I did
avoid it well enough. But you might not think how
(01:29):
how big a problem this can be, but Matt thinks
it's potentially an enormous problem. So Matt Mathison, welcome to Kawa.
Thanks for being here, and glad you're a Broncos fan
even though you're living in Texas.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Ross, thank you, Thank you so much for having me.
Good morning, it's a pleasure to be here. Happy to
be here. And yes, back to back weeks with the
Broncos beaten two Texas teams.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
It's been fun.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I bet it reminds me when I when I first
moved to Chicago years and years ago, whatever year that
would have been, like nineteen eighty seven or something. I
went to a sports bar and I was a Redskins
fan because I was living in DC near DC at
the time. I went to a sports bar and watched
the Redskins Bears in a playoff game, and the Redskins
(02:13):
knocked the Bears out of the playoffs that year, and
I kind of had to slink out of there a
little bit just to not get beaten up, right, rooting
against the Bears in Chicago, So that might be how
you feel the rooting against the Cowboys or the Texans
in Texas.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Right, Yeah, absolutely, it's actually fun. I enjoy it a lot,
and like I said, it's been a great back to back.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
When you right that micro management doesn't always look like failure,
it looks like high standards, like urgency and like precision.
I love that line, and I can easily imagine it
now that you mentioned that, before we jump into what
it looks like. Just to make sure we're one thousand
(02:55):
percent on the same page, define micro management.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I believe micromanagement really is a culmination of two things.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
It's overly.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Distrusting your people right to actually follow through on your culture,
your mission, your you know what you're actually setting out
to do. So I believe micromanagement is a great distrust
and overly getting in the way of what makes us wonderful,
which is we are constantly moving and trying to advance
(03:30):
and progress, and that's what I believe.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Micromanagement is one of the things I can imagine. And
I don't know if this is a distinction without a difference.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
You can tell me. But on that thing about right.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Okay, I mistrust my employees and therefore I'm going to
look over their shoulders at everything they're doing. Is there
a difference that matters or is it a distinction without
a difference. If the mindset behind the micromanagement is my
people are actually good, it's just that I'm better and
they could benefit from me, is there anything there that
(04:06):
matters or is that irrelevant?
Speaker 4 (04:08):
No, it matters a lot. And here's why.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
If you're a solopreneur or you're not actually trying to
grow and scale, that logic both applies and makes a
lot of sense. You can be the king of all right,
and you can truly be better. But if you're a
business that wants to grow and scale and actually be valuable,
you have to do it beyond any individual, let alone yourself.
(04:35):
And so if you take that approach, even if it's
true for a season, you're actually fourteen your ability to
move forward in advance.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay, so what is the impact on employees or teams
of employees, if they're manager or managers micro manages them.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a couple of
things that I would highlight. One, it's a destroyer of momentum,
and momentum is a powerful thing. We want people to
actually gain this momentum feeling of taking action, making course corrections,
overcoming issues, getting sand out of the gear.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
We want that momentum. When we're overly micro.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Managing them, it's a destroyer of momentum. People have to wait.
People wait to make a decision, They wait for you
to step in and fix their problem, They wait for
your permission. That momentum killer slows everything down. And I
believe winning is less about making the right decision. It's
just it's more about the speed to ultimately fixing what's broken,
(05:44):
which is a continual thing. So that's one thing. It's
a destroyer of momentum. Second thing is if you don't
have a culture where people actually feel empowered to do.
And again, lots of every level of an organization different
job functions, doing means different things. But if they don't
feel empowered to do and make decisions, you create you
(06:09):
actually create your worst nightmare. You actually create people that
are dependent on you or something else to make a
decision for him, as opposed to creating a culture where
there's an empowerment to make things happen.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
We're talking with Matt Matheson. His new book is Leadership Orbit.
The website leadership orbit dot com if you want to
check out the book. So, I wonder if you might
share with us one or two stories from your own
time advising businesses where you have found a manager or
(06:44):
the management class in a particular business, maybe many of
them micromanaging their employees, the harm it was causing, and
how you got them to change, and how.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
That worked out. Can you have even just one story
like that?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Sure, I can give there's I have a lot of
examples of this, and again I think we oftentimes fall
into it. I'll give both a sports analogy and then
a very specific business analogy. In business, I have been
part of many organizations, both directly and indirectly, whether through
just passive investing or advising or playing some other role.
And in one company in particular, there was this culture
(07:25):
that no one could actually make a decision without getting
this one individual.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
He wasn't even the.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
CEO by the way, but right he held all the cards,
and no one could do anything without this one person's
like blessing, and they would get bludgeoned if they did.
And that literally grinded a whole company to halt. It
was it's a technology company, and as you know, on technology,
things move very fast, and you actually had very capable
(07:55):
and competent and visionary people at the helm and they
were literally it was like you were you were walking
into something where just full paralysis. And it wasn't paralysis
by analysis. It was paralysis by micromanagement. And it was
I mean, you could taste it, you could feel it.
It was palpable. Removing this individual was painful and messy,
(08:21):
but as soon as this person was removed, it was
almost just like the lid, you know, people just they
could feel this empowerment kind of seepin.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
That was a technology company.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Actually, I talk about that particular company in my book.
It's actually a very large Chinese conglomerate company. Crazy story
of what actually happened, but there was a moment in
which this individual, not the CEO, not the actual operating head,
but the chairman of the company ultimately brought it to
its knees. Fascinating story in sports, I think we oftentimes
(08:54):
think about and I think the Denver Broncos may have
their own kind of version of this.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
And even though great season, good wins.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Oftentimes you hear about a very athletic quarterback.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
That's like, oh, I want them to be a pocket.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Passer, and it's you can almost feel like the micro
management in their minds seep in where they can be
they're less athletic and they're reacting less.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
And there's just this season of like that.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
It's things just don't work that well when you kind
of take away someone's ability to just be an athlete,
make decisions, go And so it's a it's a tough balance.
I like to say, micro manage the process, not the people.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
You're going to micromanage anything. Micro manage the process.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
So having a system, having a culture, having you know,
standard operating procedures, you can micromanage that because those are standards.
But don't let that seep into managing or micromanaging the people.
Let them work within that system and just be great
and fail and learn and get better.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
And I think that's how things move forward.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Okay, last question for you, and it's kind of a
big one.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
So what if there are people listening to the show
right now who are business owners and business managers, what
should they look for in themselves, or I should say,
and in their highest level of employees right under them,
those who are managing others to look for signs that hey,
(10:24):
we're drifting into micromanagement here.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Yeah, how so this would be the reflection point when
something goes wrong, when someone does something wrong, what is
the knee jerk reaction for a leader, for the executive
team whatever. Do they drop in and fix it or
do they actually empower and enforce this culture of both accountability, Hey,
(10:51):
something went wrong, but like praise for how fast did
we figure it out? And how fast did you course correct?
And what do you need to actually make a better
decision going forward. There's a difference between going in and
fixing versus empowering the people and creating this culture where
they're continually fixing and updating and improving.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
That distinction. Do I go in and just I'll screw it,
it's just easier for me to do it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Or do I let them figure that out and do
I praise them for that? That's to me the reflection
of am I actually creeping into micromanagement phase or am
I actually creating this culture of empowerment.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Matt Matheson's new book is Leadership Orbit. You can go
to the website at leadership orbit dot com and I
think you'll learn a lot and hopefully help you run
your business, whether you own it, whether you management, manage it,
run it.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Better and get the most out of your employees.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Matt Matheson, thanks for your time, really interesting conversation.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Thanks Ross, have a great day. Okay, you too.
The Ross Kaminsky Show News
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