Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you live in a very blue state, you often
have government taking actions that seem to be anti religion,
anti religious organizations, and so on. And while I am
not a particularly religious person, most of these things strike
me as obvious violations of the First Amendment. And very
(00:21):
often here in Colorado, when you have the state government
or other divisions of government doing things that treat religious
institutions worse than non religious institutions regarding the same underlying issue,
very often the state or those other governments lose. There's
another case coming up right now and a group of
(00:42):
Catholic parents and schools being represented by the Beckett Fund,
and Amanda Dixon, council at the Beckett Fund, joins us
to talk about the case.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hey, Amanda, thanks for joining us on KOA. I think
you're having me glad to do it.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
So tell us about Saint Mary Catholic Parish versus Roy.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Right, So, this is a case about Colorado's universal pre
K program. Well, it's supposed to be universal, but the
way that Colorado has implemented this program, it leaves out
the Catholic schools and Catholic parents who want to send
their children to those schools for pre K because the
Catholic schools want to make sure that the families that
(01:25):
are involved in their schools abide by Catholic principles and
that they're partnering with families instead of creed and conflict
with families. So that Colorado has decided that it can
partner with tons of different private and public schools, but
it can't partner with Catholic schools for its universal pre
K program because it doesn't like their Catholic admission standards.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
So this case did go to the Tenth Circuit, right,
it did?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yes, Right, So.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
The Tenth Circuit, just for the benefit of listeners, is
as high as you can get in the federal court
system before the Supreme Court. So at this point, are
you seeking seerts? Is that what's going on right now?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
So we filed our petition for this case last Thursday.
So we're hoping the Supreme Court will consider this in
the upcoming months, and we think it's definitely a case
that they should say very seriously.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So I'm gonna ask you to just take off your
you know, your hat as far as you representing your client,
and just talk to us for a moment as an
objective attorney to the best that you can.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
What was the reasoning for.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
The Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals and the Federal District
court below that to side against your clients.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Sure, so those courts thought, because the law in place
in Colorado doesn't specifically say it's targeting religion, that it's
perfectly fine.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
So the fact that they decided that the fact that
the administrators are creating exceptions for other groups but not religious,
well isn't a problem because the law itself is framed neutrally,
So that that was enough.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
For the court.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So, Okay, if it's framed neutrally, and I'm sure you
think it's it's not. But if it's framed neutrally, under
what provision of the law is the state saying.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Well, we are going to exclude Catholic schools.
Speaker 5 (03:21):
Sure, so the.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Law requires that the participating in preschools.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
Grant equal access to an admission and an operation to.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Group to anyone on a bunch of different grounds. So
that's going to be religious, it's going to be sexual orientation,
gender identity, disability, income, and it says you have to
grant equal access.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Well, Catholic schools.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Want to make sure that they're not creating a conflict
in the home, so they don't.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
They want to make.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Sure that the parents who send their children there are
willing to uphold Catholic values. So that's the practice of
the Catholic schools. The Colorado administrators has said this is discrimination,
and now.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
They allow other schools who don't actually don't actually grant
equal opportunity to participate.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Because it sees the exceptions that those schools offer as
beneficial and because of that, they think it's not discriminatory
if you kind of agree with Colorado's values. They think
it's not discriminatory. If you do something in Colorado cast
and that at they see that as discriminatory and violation
of the equal opportunity provision, and you're locked out.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Okay, So if I can massively oversimplify and give just
one example, one hypothetical example, is what we're saying here
that if a Catholic school would, based on the principles
of that particular faith, refuse to have a transgender teacher
or maybe a transgender student, then the state is saying, well,
(04:58):
if you won't allow that, even though you are making
a credible claim that your decision is based on true
tenets of your faith that therefore you can't participate in
this program.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Is that what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, so that's what the status said, but it's said
that in the Catholic in the Catholic circumstances, while at
the same time saying that for something like, for example,
a school that was only for gender and non conforming
children would not violate their non discrimination standards because that
was beneficial.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Very interesting and last quick question, what do you think
the odds are of the Supreme Court agreeing to hear
this case?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
You know, I try to be careful about predicting what
the Supreme Court is going to do.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
They are always willing to surprise you.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
But I'm definitely hopeful that I think this is a
case that presents a very serious issue and some very
interesting legal questions. Would I'll give it a really.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Close look, right, and with the composition of this particular
Supreme Court, I would think you guys would have a
pretty dear some chance of winning. There's obviously three votes
that you won't get, and maybe there's four or five.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
You know, maybe there's four.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You won't get, But I I would suspect you would
win this case. I wouldn't bet my life on it,
but I would bet a little. In any case, it'll
be it'll be very interesting, and we'll we'll keep in touch,
especially if the Supreme Court says, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
We're gonna hear it, we'll we'll definitely have you back,
all right, Thank thanks so much, Thanks for having you,
Thanks for being here. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Amanda Dixon is counsel at the Beckett Fund. That website
is Beckett b E c K E T fund dot org.
We're gonna take a quick break for some uh some
words and some news and gosh, we still have plenty
of stuff to do today, including a kid driving a
stolen golf cart.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It's not an important story, but I like it anyway.
When you live in a very blue state, you often
have government taking actions that seem to be anti religion,
anti religious organizations, and so on. And while I am
not a particularly religious person, most of these things strike
me as obvious violations of the First Amendment. And very
(00:21):
often here in Colorado, when you have the state government
or other divisions of government doing things that treat religious
institutions worse than non religious institutions regarding the same underlying issue,
very often the state or those other governments lose. There's
another case coming up right now and a group of
(00:42):
Catholic parents and schools being represented by the Beckett Fund,
and Amanda Dixon, council at the Beckett Fund, joins us
to talk about the case.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hey, Amanda, thanks for joining us on KOA. I think
you're having me glad to do it.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
So tell us about Saint Mary Catholic Parish versus Roy.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Right, So, this is a case about Colorado's universal pre
K program. Well, it's supposed to be universal, but the
way that Colorado has implemented this program, it leaves out
the Catholic schools and Catholic parents who want to send
their children to those schools for pre K because the
Catholic schools want to make sure that the families that
(01:25):
are involved in their schools abide by Catholic principles and
that they're partnering with families instead of creed and conflict
with families. So that Colorado has decided that it can
partner with tons of different private and public schools, but
it can't partner with Catholic schools for its universal pre
K program because it doesn't like their Catholic admission standards.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
So this case did go to the Tenth Circuit, right,
it did?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yes, Right, So.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
The Tenth Circuit, just for the benefit of listeners, is
as high as you can get in the federal court
system before the Supreme Court. So at this point, are
you seeking seerts? Is that what's going on right now?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
So we filed our petition for this case last Thursday.
So we're hoping the Supreme Court will consider this in
the upcoming months, and we think it's definitely a case
that they should say very seriously.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So I'm gonna ask you to just take off your
you know, your hat as far as you representing your client,
and just talk to us for a moment as an
objective attorney to the best that you can.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
What was the reasoning for.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
The Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals and the Federal District
court below that to side against your clients.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Sure, so those courts thought, because the law in place
in Colorado doesn't specifically say it's targeting religion, that it's
perfectly fine.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
So the fact that they decided that the fact that
the administrators are creating exceptions for other groups but not religious,
well isn't a problem because the law itself is framed neutrally,
So that that was enough.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
For the court.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So, Okay, if it's framed neutrally, and I'm sure you
think it's it's not. But if it's framed neutrally, under
what provision of the law is the state saying.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Well, we are going to exclude Catholic schools.
Speaker 5 (03:21):
Sure, so the.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Law requires that the participating in preschools.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
Grant equal access to an admission and an operation to.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Group to anyone on a bunch of different grounds. So
that's going to be religious, it's going to be sexual orientation,
gender identity, disability, income, and it says you have to
grant equal access.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Well, Catholic schools.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Want to make sure that they're not creating a conflict
in the home, so they don't.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
They want to make.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Sure that the parents who send their children there are
willing to uphold Catholic values. So that's the practice of
the Catholic schools. The Colorado administrators has said this is discrimination,
and now.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
They allow other schools who don't actually don't actually grant
equal opportunity to participate.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Because it sees the exceptions that those schools offer as
beneficial and because of that, they think it's not discriminatory
if you kind of agree with Colorado's values. They think
it's not discriminatory. If you do something in Colorado cast
and that at they see that as discriminatory and violation
of the equal opportunity provision, and you're locked out.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Okay, So if I can massively oversimplify and give just
one example, one hypothetical example, is what we're saying here
that if a Catholic school would, based on the principles
of that particular faith, refuse to have a transgender teacher
or maybe a transgender student, then the state is saying, well,
(04:58):
if you won't allow that, even though you are making
a credible claim that your decision is based on true
tenets of your faith that therefore you can't participate in
this program.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Is that what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, so that's what the status said, but it's said
that in the Catholic in the Catholic circumstances, while at
the same time saying that for something like, for example,
a school that was only for gender and non conforming
children would not violate their non discrimination standards because that
was beneficial.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Very interesting and last quick question, what do you think
the odds are of the Supreme Court agreeing to hear
this case?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
You know, I try to be careful about predicting what
the Supreme Court is going to do.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
They are always willing to surprise you.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
But I'm definitely hopeful that I think this is a
case that presents a very serious issue and some very
interesting legal questions. Would I'll give it a really.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Close look, right, and with the composition of this particular
Supreme Court, I would think you guys would have a
pretty dear some chance of winning. There's obviously three votes
that you won't get, and maybe there's four or five.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
You know, maybe there's four.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You won't get, But I I would suspect you would
win this case. I wouldn't bet my life on it,
but I would bet a little. In any case, it'll
be it'll be very interesting, and we'll we'll keep in touch,
especially if the Supreme Court says, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
We're gonna hear it, we'll we'll definitely have you back,
all right, Thank thanks so much, Thanks for having you,
Thanks for being here. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Amanda Dixon is counsel at the Beckett Fund. That website
is Beckett b E c K E T fund dot org.
We're gonna take a quick break for some uh some
words and some news and gosh, we still have plenty
of stuff to do today, including a kid driving a
stolen golf cart.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It's not an important story, but I like it anyway.
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