Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Kamala Harris was on Saturday Night Live on unsurprisingly Saturday
Night and I am not going to play any audio
for you of that because I do not want to
be responsible for a rash of car accidents caused by
brain aneurysms. So the most interesting thing about Kamala Harris
(00:22):
being on Saturday Night Live was the reaction to it
by my next guest, Republican Commissioner at the FCC, Brendan Carr.
He's been a guest on the show many times, and
I had the chance to meet Brendan in person when
I was out there at the SCC some years ago.
I don't mean working there and just visiting for a day.
And let's just jump in, Brendan, what do you argue
(00:45):
that NBC did wrong here?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, great to be with you again.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
You know, look, America's broadcasts, as whether it's radio or TV,
are in a special sort of privileged position. They have
license is to operate, and that comes with certain responsibilities.
One of them is this thing called the equal time rule.
I look, the SEC has a lot of like weird
arcane rules. This actually isn't one of them. This is
pretty straightforward. If you give a candidate use of your
(01:13):
facilities or airways, then you owe every other qualified candidate
equal use of those facilities. So when the candidate Harris
went on SNL Saturday night, that triggered an obligation to
allow every other campaign to remember, it's not just a
Trump campaign, but the Jill Stein campaign probably has some
rights here.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
RFK Junior probably has some rights here. Virginia Senate candidate Hung.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Cow probably has rights because his opponent, Senator Tim Kaine
was also on there.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
And this was clearly done, in my view, to evade
the FCC's equal time rule. And I say that for
this reason.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
A couple weeks ago, SNL NBC's Lauren Michaels came out
and said he was not going to have any cameos
by any candidate because he said he couldn't do it
consistent with the equal time rule. And then all of
a sudden, late Saturday night, you know, x is blowing up,
with planes getting diverted to New York and people, you know,
figuring out the last minute that they pulled a switch through.
(02:12):
I think it was clearly done to evade the rule,
to jam the campaigns up, and they thought they could
get away with it all right.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
One quick note for listeners in case you're thinking about
my show, because I am in this kind of news
talk format, and this would also apply to places like
Fox News and CNN.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
The equal time rule does not apply.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
To me and to shows like mine and to shows
like those things. But when you're talking about entertainment shows
and music shows on radio and stuff, that's.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Where the equal time rule applies.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Okay, So Brendan, let's for the purpose of this conversation,
let's let's stipulate that you're right. Now.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
What well, fir s All, you're right about the news format.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
There's actually a provision the rules called bonafide newscast bonafide
news shows, and the FC has read almost every program
to be part of the exception.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I mean, the equal time doesn't apply.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Well, we've been very clear about SNL in fact, in
twenty fifteen twenty sixteen cycle, and then candidate Trump and
candidate Harris went on, and then Democrat actuallyc chair spoke
up and said, yeah, rules are on the books, we're
going to enforce them. That particular show doesn't meet any exception.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So what now there's recent.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Accountability and what's been reported is that NBC did in fact,
end up giving the Trump campaign sometime during their nationwide
NASCAR broadcast yesterday and right before NFL Sunday Night football.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I haven't confirmed that independently, but that's what the reporting is.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
It's not clear that that, you know, completely gets them
out of the woods on this issue for a couple
of random reasons. But it's also yet to be seen
whether Hungkou campaign, Jill Stein campaign, an RFK Junior campaign
are made whole because part of.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
The issue is the rule.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Says these opposing candidates have seven days to decide whether
to exercise their right. Because the switcheroo was done, you know,
less than fifty hours from election.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Day, it makes it different goal for them to vindicate
their rights here.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
So just to be clear, RFK Junior is not running anymore,
so probably not him, but maybe the libertarian candidate could
could have an argument well, or or is there.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
I remember he's still in the ballot in certain states.
He's in those states.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I think he might have an argument.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Not nationwide right, potentially, but but but in those states
where he's on the ballot, Uh, he might have an argument.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
What about I'm interested that you brought up the Senate candidate.
And by the way, hunk Cow, I don't know if
he's gonna win, but he's a very interesting candidate in Virginia.
And since you work in Washington, d C. And know
that area, I'm not surprised you're acquainted with him. He's
a very interesting candidate. Why would a why would a
senate candidate have an equal time claim?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Well later in that same uh SNL, Tim Kaine appeared
in the SNL show. And so what NBC's done is
they've posted two equal time notices, one for the Harris
appearance and then they also subsequently bought a second one
for the Tim Kaine appearance.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That's a triggering event there.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Okay, you said that before and it went in one
ear and out somewhere.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
So yeah, you did say that.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So if if the FCC were full of people like you,
which it isn't, but if it were and they were
to take a look at this, is there any possible
sanction against NBC that goes beyond just a mild scolding.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Mean what I've said is we need to keep every
single possible FCC remedy on the table.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
You know, again, it's not clear that they're gonna be
able to to fix this situation.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
They certainly didn't think they could fix this situation on
the front end, which is why they decided not to
do it.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
But we not only need to make people whole to invest.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
We can, but need to deter this from ever happening
again to benefit a Republican or a Democrat independent, and
he can it. So my view has been every single
remedy that the SEC has, and you know, there's a
full suite of remedies we need to keep on the.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Table until you know, we resolve this.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I think it should come to us, if people file complaints,
it should come to us, and then we should educate this.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So I'm going to play two lawyers at the same time,
and then you tell me what you think. So if
I were if I were let's say NBC's lawyer, and
assuming that the reporting you heard is right, I haven't
seen that, but let's just say it's right, I'd say, well,
we gave them equal time on other large broadcasts, and yeah,
it wasn't Saturday Night Live, but it's close enough, and
(06:23):
so we've fulfilled the letter of the rule. If I
were Trump's lawyers, I would say Saturday Night live is
a very specific audience, very different from the audience at
a NASCAR game or an NFL game, and what happened
there wasn't fair because you didn't give me an opportunity
(06:44):
at anything even close to the same audience, and therefore
that didn't really count as equal time.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
What do you make of those competing arguments.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I think you nailed it. Those are what the artists
will be.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
The test is not you have to be on the
identical program. Test is comparable time, which is easy. That's
why they use like stopwatches. That part is easy, and
then comparable placement that we arguments about whether you know
NASCAR and NFL count.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
But again, the other issue here is that seven day rule.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You know, we haven't provided this such that a candidate
needs to make, on an hour's basis a snap decision
about whether to exercise this right or forfeited, and so
I think that's another component of it. I certainly think
it helps NBC's position if they did end up giving
this free time.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That helps. Does it entirely cure it? I'm not sure.
I'm open to those.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Both those arguments you just made, and we could see
those arguments right before the FCC soon.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
All right, real quick, it could be another thing you
said that I missed. But what's the seven day rule
part of this?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
So the seven day rule is once a candidate appears
on a show, opposing candidates have to exercise their equal
time right they're claimed to wanting equal time within seven
days of that airing.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Here, they won't have seven days to.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Make their claim to equal time because it was done
only fifty hours before election day, so it's short circuited there.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Seven days. It was just another sort of nuance here.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Where someone may have an argument that you can't really
cure it because I had to make a snap decision.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
You know, usually you have time to prepare, prepare an ad,
prepare yourself.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
In the way it was structured by NBC sort of
surprising people the last minute.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
There may be sort of a threshold argument there, but
whether they can even cure.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
At all that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And I don't know whether the person who wants equal
time has any right to ask for it to be
on the same show. But since they put Kamala Harris
on on the last Saturday Night Live before the election,
then it would be impossible for Trump to be on
Saturday Night live before the election.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Last quick question for you, Brendan.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
If somehow the FCC were to find that NBC did
violate the rule, and I'm not saying that you have
even concluded that.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
You're just bringing it up right now.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
What's the worst possible penalty that could befall them?
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, the worst possible remedy any broadcast violation is always
licensed revocation.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I said that this morning on a program and some
people lost their mind.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I'm not saying or calling for the licensed replication at
this point, but I'm just saying the full suite of
remedies for egregious violations is you know, finds on the
one hand, or you know, slaps on the wrists on
the on the other hand. But the other extreme can
be licensed revocation. You know, you know, we'll see what
happens in this case. But again, not calling for it.
Right people ask what the sweet of remedies is, and
that's that's.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
In the toolkit.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think you'll get there, and
I'm not going to ask you this question, but I
don't think you think it's gonna get to that either.
But I fully agree with you, especially in the context
of Lorne Michael's having said we're not gonna have candidates
on the show because we can't deal with the equal
time implications, and then they have Kamala Harris on, you know,
(09:46):
a few days before the actual election. I agree with
you that this is an intentional violation at least of
the spirit of the rule and maybe the letter of
the rule too, And I do hope they get fined,
although I don't have a lot of faith in some
of your other FCC commissioners these these days, they'll give
you the last few seconds.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, Look, I think that that sums it up about right.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
And look, a lot of people have a lot of
lack of trust right now in media. I think this is,
you know, another exhibit that can go into that. And
I think the FCC is standing up and showing that
our rules have actual teeth and mean something. Will go
a long way for our own credibility as an agency,
but maybe starts to sort of restore some of the
trust generally in media.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Brendan Carr is a Republican member of the Federal Communications
Commissioner Commission.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
He's a commissioner.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
You can follow him on x formerly Twitter at Brendan
Carr with two rs FCC Brendan, thanks as always and
I really appreciate your bringing this to the public's attention.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah good moew with you, Thanks much, Russ okay
Kamala Harris was on Saturday Night Live on unsurprisingly Saturday
Night and I am not going to play any audio
for you of that because I do not want to
be responsible for a rash of car accidents caused by
brain aneurysms. So the most interesting thing about Kamala Harris
(00:22):
being on Saturday Night Live was the reaction to it
by my next guest, Republican Commissioner at the FCC, Brendan Carr.
He's been a guest on the show many times, and
I had the chance to meet Brendan in person when
I was out there at the SCC some years ago.
I don't mean working there and just visiting for a day.
And let's just jump in, Brendan, what do you argue
(00:45):
that NBC did wrong here?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, great to be with you again.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
You know, look, America's broadcasts, as whether it's radio or TV,
are in a special sort of privileged position. They have
license is to operate, and that comes with certain responsibilities.
One of them is this thing called the equal time rule.
I look, the SEC has a lot of like weird
arcane rules. This actually isn't one of them. This is
pretty straightforward. If you give a candidate use of your
(01:13):
facilities or airways, then you owe every other qualified candidate
equal use of those facilities. So when the candidate Harris
went on SNL Saturday night, that triggered an obligation to
allow every other campaign to remember, it's not just a
Trump campaign, but the Jill Stein campaign probably has some
rights here.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
RFK Junior probably has some rights here. Virginia Senate candidate Hung.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Cow probably has rights because his opponent, Senator Tim Kaine
was also on there.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
And this was clearly done, in my view, to evade
the FCC's equal time rule. And I say that for
this reason.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
A couple weeks ago, SNL NBC's Lauren Michaels came out
and said he was not going to have any cameos
by any candidate because he said he couldn't do it
consistent with the equal time rule. And then all of
a sudden, late Saturday night, you know, x is blowing up,
with planes getting diverted to New York and people, you know,
figuring out the last minute that they pulled a switch through.
(02:12):
I think it was clearly done to evade the rule,
to jam the campaigns up, and they thought they could
get away with it all right.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
One quick note for listeners in case you're thinking about
my show, because I am in this kind of news
talk format, and this would also apply to places like
Fox News and CNN.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
The equal time rule does not apply.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
To me and to shows like mine and to shows
like those things. But when you're talking about entertainment shows
and music shows on radio and stuff, that's.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Where the equal time rule applies.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Okay, So Brendan, let's for the purpose of this conversation,
let's let's stipulate that you're right. Now.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
What well, fir s All, you're right about the news format.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
There's actually a provision the rules called bonafide newscast bonafide
news shows, and the FC has read almost every program
to be part of the exception.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I mean, the equal time doesn't apply.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Well, we've been very clear about SNL in fact, in
twenty fifteen twenty sixteen cycle, and then candidate Trump and
candidate Harris went on, and then Democrat actuallyc chair spoke
up and said, yeah, rules are on the books, we're
going to enforce them. That particular show doesn't meet any exception.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So what now there's recent.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Accountability and what's been reported is that NBC did in fact,
end up giving the Trump campaign sometime during their nationwide
NASCAR broadcast yesterday and right before NFL Sunday Night football.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I haven't confirmed that independently, but that's what the reporting is.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
It's not clear that that, you know, completely gets them
out of the woods on this issue for a couple
of random reasons. But it's also yet to be seen
whether Hungkou campaign, Jill Stein campaign, an RFK Junior campaign
are made whole because part of.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
The issue is the rule.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Says these opposing candidates have seven days to decide whether
to exercise their right. Because the switcheroo was done, you know,
less than fifty hours from election.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Day, it makes it different goal for them to vindicate
their rights here.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
So just to be clear, RFK Junior is not running anymore,
so probably not him, but maybe the libertarian candidate could
could have an argument well, or or is there.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
I remember he's still in the ballot in certain states.
He's in those states.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I think he might have an argument.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Not nationwide right, potentially, but but but in those states
where he's on the ballot, Uh, he might have an argument.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
What about I'm interested that you brought up the Senate candidate.
And by the way, hunk Cow, I don't know if
he's gonna win, but he's a very interesting candidate in Virginia.
And since you work in Washington, d C. And know
that area, I'm not surprised you're acquainted with him. He's
a very interesting candidate. Why would a why would a
senate candidate have an equal time claim?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Well later in that same uh SNL, Tim Kaine appeared
in the SNL show. And so what NBC's done is
they've posted two equal time notices, one for the Harris
appearance and then they also subsequently bought a second one
for the Tim Kaine appearance.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That's a triggering event there.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Okay, you said that before and it went in one
ear and out somewhere.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
So yeah, you did say that.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So if if the FCC were full of people like you,
which it isn't, but if it were and they were
to take a look at this, is there any possible
sanction against NBC that goes beyond just a mild scolding.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Mean what I've said is we need to keep every
single possible FCC remedy on the table.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
You know, again, it's not clear that they're gonna be
able to to fix this situation.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
They certainly didn't think they could fix this situation on
the front end, which is why they decided not to
do it.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
But we not only need to make people whole to invest.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
We can, but need to deter this from ever happening
again to benefit a Republican or a Democrat independent, and
he can it. So my view has been every single
remedy that the SEC has, and you know, there's a
full suite of remedies we need to keep on the.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Table until you know, we resolve this.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I think it should come to us, if people file complaints,
it should come to us, and then we should educate this.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So I'm going to play two lawyers at the same time,
and then you tell me what you think. So if
I were if I were let's say NBC's lawyer, and
assuming that the reporting you heard is right, I haven't
seen that, but let's just say it's right, I'd say, well,
we gave them equal time on other large broadcasts, and yeah,
it wasn't Saturday Night Live, but it's close enough, and
(06:23):
so we've fulfilled the letter of the rule. If I
were Trump's lawyers, I would say Saturday Night live is
a very specific audience, very different from the audience at
a NASCAR game or an NFL game, and what happened
there wasn't fair because you didn't give me an opportunity
(06:44):
at anything even close to the same audience, and therefore
that didn't really count as equal time.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
What do you make of those competing arguments.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I think you nailed it. Those are what the artists
will be.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
The test is not you have to be on the
identical program. Test is comparable time, which is easy. That's
why they use like stopwatches. That part is easy, and
then comparable placement that we arguments about whether you know
NASCAR and NFL count.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
But again, the other issue here is that seven day rule.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You know, we haven't provided this such that a candidate
needs to make, on an hour's basis a snap decision
about whether to exercise this right or forfeited, and so
I think that's another component of it. I certainly think
it helps NBC's position if they did end up giving
this free time.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That helps. Does it entirely cure it? I'm not sure.
I'm open to those.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Both those arguments you just made, and we could see
those arguments right before the FCC soon.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
All right, real quick, it could be another thing you
said that I missed. But what's the seven day rule
part of this?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
So the seven day rule is once a candidate appears
on a show, opposing candidates have to exercise their equal
time right they're claimed to wanting equal time within seven
days of that airing.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Here, they won't have seven days to.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Make their claim to equal time because it was done
only fifty hours before election day, so it's short circuited there.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Seven days. It was just another sort of nuance here.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Where someone may have an argument that you can't really
cure it because I had to make a snap decision.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
You know, usually you have time to prepare, prepare an ad,
prepare yourself.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
In the way it was structured by NBC sort of
surprising people the last minute.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
There may be sort of a threshold argument there, but
whether they can even cure.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
At all that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And I don't know whether the person who wants equal
time has any right to ask for it to be
on the same show. But since they put Kamala Harris
on on the last Saturday Night Live before the election,
then it would be impossible for Trump to be on
Saturday Night live before the election.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Last quick question for you, Brendan.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
If somehow the FCC were to find that NBC did
violate the rule, and I'm not saying that you have
even concluded that.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
You're just bringing it up right now.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
What's the worst possible penalty that could befall them?
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, the worst possible remedy any broadcast violation is always
licensed revocation.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I said that this morning on a program and some
people lost their mind.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I'm not saying or calling for the licensed replication at
this point, but I'm just saying the full suite of
remedies for egregious violations is you know, finds on the
one hand, or you know, slaps on the wrists on
the on the other hand. But the other extreme can
be licensed revocation. You know, you know, we'll see what
happens in this case. But again, not calling for it.
Right people ask what the sweet of remedies is, and
that's that's.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
In the toolkit.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think you'll get there, and
I'm not going to ask you this question, but I
don't think you think it's gonna get to that either.
But I fully agree with you, especially in the context
of Lorne Michael's having said we're not gonna have candidates
on the show because we can't deal with the equal
time implications, and then they have Kamala Harris on, you know,
(09:46):
a few days before the actual election. I agree with
you that this is an intentional violation at least of
the spirit of the rule and maybe the letter of
the rule too, And I do hope they get fined,
although I don't have a lot of faith in some
of your other FCC commissioners these these days, they'll give
you the last few seconds.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, Look, I think that that sums it up about right.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
And look, a lot of people have a lot of
lack of trust right now in media. I think this is,
you know, another exhibit that can go into that. And
I think the FCC is standing up and showing that
our rules have actual teeth and mean something. Will go
a long way for our own credibility as an agency,
but maybe starts to sort of restore some of the
trust generally in media.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Brendan Carr is a Republican member of the Federal Communications
Commissioner Commission.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
He's a commissioner.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
You can follow him on x formerly Twitter at Brendan
Carr with two rs FCC Brendan, thanks as always and
I really appreciate your bringing this to the public's attention.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah good moew with you, Thanks much, Russ okay
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