Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am so pleased to welcome back to the show
my pal KT McFarlane, former Deputy National Security Advisor in
the first Trump administration and author of Revolution Trump, Washington
and We the People. I hope I got that right
because I wasn't reading the book title. It's just from memory. Hi, Kt,
I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, let me be the person to wish you merry.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Christmas, right, and always you happy, Hanika the next time
we talk as well. All right, we have a ton
of stuff to talk about in only about nine minutes
to do it, So let's jump in with the Russia
Ukraine talked. I mentioned earlier on the show that the
Trump administration.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Seemed to want to.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
You know, force Ukraine to take a particular kind of deal.
There was a lot of pushback, and now it seems
like there's more of a normal sort of negotiating process
going on, whatever normal means with the Russians.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
So what should we think here?
Speaker 4 (00:53):
I give it time, These are going back and forth.
What encourages me about the negotiations that they're having is,
you know, normal State department led diplomatic negotiations are all
about the military part of it, and the security part.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Of it and the alliance part of it.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
But in this case, they're talking at least with the
Russians as well as Ukraine about the investment opportunities and
the business part of it.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Now, why is that important? Because if you.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Have, if the United States has invested economically in a
relationship with Ukraine, let's say, to develop Ukraine's wherew minerals
or is invested with Russia as part of this deal,
which would be to work with Russia to develop the Arctic,
those are things that are going to last more than
a four year administration. Those are things that are going
to last decades. And that's why I'm very encouraged to
(01:42):
see that, at least from some of the leaks, which
you know, the mainstream media goes now and says, oh,
this is all about business.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
It's not about peace. Look, how do you think you
get to peace. You get to peace with business.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
So I'm actually quite encouraged by the level of the
complexity and the breath of the potential agreement we're talking about.
It's not just going to be piece between Russia and Ukraine.
It's going to be a much broader US Ukraine Russia
relationship and Why is that good for us when it's
(02:13):
good for our economy. It's good because it stops the war,
and frankly, it's really good because if there's a way
to have a US Russian relationship after the Ukraine War
is finished, then it means that Russia doesn't have as
close a relationship with China, and that's to our advantage.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
It's interesting you mentioned it so about an hour ago.
I mentioned on the show that I thought it was
very clever of Vladimir Putin to make his point. Guy
Kirol Dimitryev, who runs runs their sovereign wealth fund, which
isn't a very big sovereign wealth fund, but he went
to Stanford, he went to Harvard, he worked at Mackenzie,
worked at Goldman. He speaks English and he speaks money.
(02:52):
And I thought that was very very smart of Putin.
I saw those leaks about the making money and so on.
I didn't like when Trump at first gave Ukraine a
deadline of Thanksgiving to sign that deal that looked like
it was written in Moscow, and it seemed like they
got a little too excited.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
About these investment opportunities.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
And now they've taken a breath a little bit, But
I agree with you that tying this stuff in is
pretty smart as long as it's not their first priority.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
No, the first priority is to end the war.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
But the war will start up again unless the countries
have a vested interest in not having that war.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
You know, Russia will invade again. Now, how do you
stop Russia from invade and again?
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Well, one way is to make sure that Russia doesn't
have that extra income from high oil prices that allow
it to then build up the reserves to go to war.
Another way you stop it as you make it into
Russia's economic best interest to not have a war. You know,
if Russia's if you look throughout Russian history, I mean,
what happens, Why does Russian Why do Russian leaders get overthrown?
(03:53):
Why is there a revolution? Is either week at home
or a week abroad. And if the country is weak
at home because of the economy, then that's a red
flag that the country is not going to be a
stable kind of Russia.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I mean, it's not going to be stable, so you
have to look ahead.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I think the other thing though, that is really sort
of a downer as far as Russian, Russian, Ukraine American
piece is the revelation of this massive corruption scandal in Ukraine.
You know, it just really will dampen any country's enthusiasm
in Europe and as well, certainly in the United States,
(04:30):
for wa, why are we throwing hundreds of millions of
down billions of dollars into Ukraine if a certain ten
or fifteen percent of it is getting siphoned off to
some cruft Ukrainian officials.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
It was interesting to see that that guy Yermak resign.
He was Zelenski's number two man and seems to have gotten,
you know, gotten caught up in this corruption stuff. I
don't know that they've proven anything, but there's certainly smoke.
I don't know if there's fire yet, but there's enough
smoke that he's gone because Zelenski clearly wants to avoid
exactly the kind of outcome that you're describing.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, and it's hard to think. I mean Ukraine.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Before the Ukraine Russia War, Ukraine was considered one of
the most corrupt countries in the world. Somebody once described
it to me when I was going to I was
going to Kiev, I don't know, right after the Revolution
of the Mind, the Square Revolution, and I said, well,
what do you talk to me about Ukraine's corruption. What
does that mean? Like somebody's skimming it off the top.
They said, no, no, Here's what it is.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Is.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
You get in a car in Kiev, you get your car,
you drive your car. Let's say you're an American embassy official.
You drive your car and you get stopped by the
police and you say, well, what's wrong, and they say, well,
your tail light isn't working.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Let me see your driver's license.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
So you go in, you get your driver's license and
your ownership certificate and you hand it to the policeman.
But what do you have to do to get that
out of your glove compartment.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
You have to unbuckle your seatbelt.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
So then the police officer, oh, oh, we got you're
not wearing your seatbelt. And so, I mean, it was
just petty corruption at all levels in Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
And until Ukraine really guess a handle on that, it's hard.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
To see that they're going to be a real investment
opportunity for the United States. I do think they'll get
a handle on it, but the corruption is an issue.
This is not just garden variety corruption.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
All right, let's see if we can get in two
more topics in about three minutes, I saw that you noted.
I know so that you noted on on Twitter you
had some comments about Trump's meeting with MBS and the
you know, obviously President Trump's.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
President Trump's primary area.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Of foreign policy focus in both administrations has been the
Middle East. Yes, he's got some focus on Ukraine, but
he wants to focus on piece in the Middle East
and Israel and all this. What did you make of
that meeting with MBS.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I'm very encouraged by it all.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
I remember, MBS exists as a leader thanks to Donald
Trump because it was we were sitting around the you know,
in the situation room and the first week of the
first term at President of Trump deciding would we support
this young young leader MBS, or would we I port
an older generation of leaders in our policies. And Trump
took the risk and supported the young guy because a
(07:05):
young guy, MBS said he wanted to get rid of
radical Islam. He wanted to open their society, diversify their economy,
and grow closer to the United States. And that's exactly
what he's done in the nine years that MBS has
been in power. So I'm very encouraged by that. Relationship,
because what it means is in order for the Middle
East to develop, you need Middle East peace. For Middle
(07:26):
East peace, you need peace between the Saudis and Israel, right, and.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So the Saudis seem interested in peace with Israel and
the Abraham ac courts, but they seem to be making
a condition.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Of some kind of path to a two state solution.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Now I'm very hardcore on this, right, I'm a one
state guy with his little Palestinian involvement. You know, I
would pave Gaza and and you know I wouldn't kill
all the people. I would move them out and then
turn Gaza do the Trump thing, turn it into a
beach resort, because I think these people have been so
vast propagandized over generations that they can never be trusted again.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I'm very hardcore on this.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
But the Saudis seem to be saying, got to be
a two.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
State solution or a path to it.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
So do you think the Saudis are saying they won't
go along with the abraham Accords until there's an actual, concrete,
believable thing, or do you think they'd be okay with
some kind of fig leaf that makes it sound like
there's some movement in that direction.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
If you look at the peace plan the UN, even
the UN Security Council agree to. It talks about a
very vague about the sort of path and encouragement to
Palaestinian stata, but nothing concrete.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
What is concrete in.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
That peace agreement is that Hamas is isolated and separated
from the Palestinian people.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
But so just quickly, just get to my question there.
Do you think the Saudis will sign the Abraham Accords
in the absence of something very concrete about a two
state solution Israel certainly won't allow.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
I mean, let's see how this plays out. If Amas
is gone, if Amas is banned from participating in a
new government, if Hamas is disarmed, then you have a
very different dynamic in Gaza. Very I mean, you know,
we'll see what the Palestinian people can do. But if
you have if you have a Gaza with no Mamas,
(09:22):
the Palestinian people are there, policed by other Arab countries
in the region and fort and forcing to have peace
between Israel and the Palestinians.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I think that that was the genius.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Of the peace agreement, which is that it's no longer
in people's minds.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Well Hamas is the Palestinian people.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Is to say, well Hamas is something separate from the
Palestinian people, and I think that's why all the Arab
countries went along with it.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Kat's website is kt McFarland dot com. You can follow
her on ex formerly Twitter at real kt McFarland, and
her book Revelation, Trump, Washington and We the People is
still a great read and very applicable even these years later. Kat,
thanks so much as always for joining us, and I'll
talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Thank you all right,
I am so pleased to welcome back to the show
my pal KT McFarlane, former Deputy National Security Advisor in
the first Trump administration and author of Revolution Trump, Washington
and We the People. I hope I got that right
because I wasn't reading the book title. It's just from memory. Hi, Kt,
I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, let me be the person to wish you merry.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Christmas, right, and always you happy, Hanika the next time
we talk as well. All right, we have a ton
of stuff to talk about in only about nine minutes
to do it, So let's jump in with the Russia
Ukraine talked. I mentioned earlier on the show that the
Trump administration.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Seemed to want to.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
You know, force Ukraine to take a particular kind of deal.
There was a lot of pushback, and now it seems
like there's more of a normal sort of negotiating process
going on, whatever normal means with the Russians.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
So what should we think here?
Speaker 4 (00:53):
I give it time, These are going back and forth.
What encourages me about the negotiations that they're having is,
you know, normal State department led diplomatic negotiations are all
about the military part of it, and the security part.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Of it and the alliance part of it.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
But in this case, they're talking at least with the
Russians as well as Ukraine about the investment opportunities and
the business part of it.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Now, why is that important? Because if you.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Have, if the United States has invested economically in a
relationship with Ukraine, let's say, to develop Ukraine's wherew minerals
or is invested with Russia as part of this deal,
which would be to work with Russia to develop the Arctic,
those are things that are going to last more than
a four year administration. Those are things that are going
to last decades. And that's why I'm very encouraged to
(01:42):
see that, at least from some of the leaks, which
you know, the mainstream media goes now and says, oh,
this is all about business.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
It's not about peace. Look, how do you think you
get to peace. You get to peace with business.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
So I'm actually quite encouraged by the level of the
complexity and the breath of the potential agreement we're talking about.
It's not just going to be piece between Russia and Ukraine.
It's going to be a much broader US Ukraine Russia
relationship and Why is that good for us when it's
(02:13):
good for our economy. It's good because it stops the war,
and frankly, it's really good because if there's a way
to have a US Russian relationship after the Ukraine War
is finished, then it means that Russia doesn't have as
close a relationship with China, and that's to our advantage.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
It's interesting you mentioned it so about an hour ago.
I mentioned on the show that I thought it was
very clever of Vladimir Putin to make his point. Guy
Kirol Dimitryev, who runs runs their sovereign wealth fund, which
isn't a very big sovereign wealth fund, but he went
to Stanford, he went to Harvard, he worked at Mackenzie,
worked at Goldman. He speaks English and he speaks money.
(02:52):
And I thought that was very very smart of Putin.
I saw those leaks about the making money and so on.
I didn't like when Trump at first gave Ukraine a
deadline of Thanksgiving to sign that deal that looked like
it was written in Moscow, and it seemed like they
got a little too excited.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
About these investment opportunities.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
And now they've taken a breath a little bit, But
I agree with you that tying this stuff in is
pretty smart as long as it's not their first priority.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
No, the first priority is to end the war.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
But the war will start up again unless the countries
have a vested interest in not having that war.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
You know, Russia will invade again. Now, how do you
stop Russia from invade and again?
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Well, one way is to make sure that Russia doesn't
have that extra income from high oil prices that allow
it to then build up the reserves to go to war.
Another way you stop it as you make it into
Russia's economic best interest to not have a war. You know,
if Russia's if you look throughout Russian history, I mean,
what happens, Why does Russian Why do Russian leaders get overthrown?
(03:53):
Why is there a revolution? Is either week at home
or a week abroad. And if the country is weak
at home because of the economy, then that's a red
flag that the country is not going to be a
stable kind of Russia.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I mean, it's not going to be stable, so you
have to look ahead.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I think the other thing though, that is really sort
of a downer as far as Russian, Russian, Ukraine American
piece is the revelation of this massive corruption scandal in Ukraine.
You know, it just really will dampen any country's enthusiasm
in Europe and as well, certainly in the United States,
(04:30):
for wa, why are we throwing hundreds of millions of
down billions of dollars into Ukraine if a certain ten
or fifteen percent of it is getting siphoned off to
some cruft Ukrainian officials.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
It was interesting to see that that guy Yermak resign.
He was Zelenski's number two man and seems to have gotten,
you know, gotten caught up in this corruption stuff. I
don't know that they've proven anything, but there's certainly smoke.
I don't know if there's fire yet, but there's enough
smoke that he's gone because Zelenski clearly wants to avoid
exactly the kind of outcome that you're describing.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, and it's hard to think. I mean Ukraine.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Before the Ukraine Russia War, Ukraine was considered one of
the most corrupt countries in the world. Somebody once described
it to me when I was going to I was
going to Kiev, I don't know, right after the Revolution
of the Mind, the Square Revolution, and I said, well,
what do you talk to me about Ukraine's corruption. What
does that mean? Like somebody's skimming it off the top.
They said, no, no, Here's what it is.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Is.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
You get in a car in Kiev, you get your car,
you drive your car. Let's say you're an American embassy official.
You drive your car and you get stopped by the
police and you say, well, what's wrong, and they say, well,
your tail light isn't working.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Let me see your driver's license.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
So you go in, you get your driver's license and
your ownership certificate and you hand it to the policeman.
But what do you have to do to get that
out of your glove compartment.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
You have to unbuckle your seatbelt.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
So then the police officer, oh, oh, we got you're
not wearing your seatbelt. And so, I mean, it was
just petty corruption at all levels in Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
And until Ukraine really guess a handle on that, it's hard.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
To see that they're going to be a real investment
opportunity for the United States. I do think they'll get
a handle on it, but the corruption is an issue.
This is not just garden variety corruption.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
All right, let's see if we can get in two
more topics in about three minutes, I saw that you noted.
I know so that you noted on on Twitter you
had some comments about Trump's meeting with MBS and the
you know, obviously President Trump's.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
President Trump's primary area.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Of foreign policy focus in both administrations has been the
Middle East. Yes, he's got some focus on Ukraine, but
he wants to focus on piece in the Middle East
and Israel and all this. What did you make of
that meeting with MBS.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I'm very encouraged by it all.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
I remember, MBS exists as a leader thanks to Donald
Trump because it was we were sitting around the you know,
in the situation room and the first week of the
first term at President of Trump deciding would we support
this young young leader MBS, or would we I port
an older generation of leaders in our policies. And Trump
took the risk and supported the young guy because a
(07:05):
young guy, MBS said he wanted to get rid of
radical Islam. He wanted to open their society, diversify their economy,
and grow closer to the United States. And that's exactly
what he's done in the nine years that MBS has
been in power. So I'm very encouraged by that. Relationship,
because what it means is in order for the Middle
East to develop, you need Middle East peace. For Middle
(07:26):
East peace, you need peace between the Saudis and Israel, right, and.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So the Saudis seem interested in peace with Israel and
the Abraham ac courts, but they seem to be making
a condition.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Of some kind of path to a two state solution.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Now I'm very hardcore on this, right, I'm a one
state guy with his little Palestinian involvement. You know, I
would pave Gaza and and you know I wouldn't kill
all the people. I would move them out and then
turn Gaza do the Trump thing, turn it into a
beach resort, because I think these people have been so
vast propagandized over generations that they can never be trusted again.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I'm very hardcore on this.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
But the Saudis seem to be saying, got to be
a two.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
State solution or a path to it.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
So do you think the Saudis are saying they won't
go along with the abraham Accords until there's an actual, concrete,
believable thing, or do you think they'd be okay with
some kind of fig leaf that makes it sound like
there's some movement in that direction.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
If you look at the peace plan the UN, even
the UN Security Council agree to. It talks about a
very vague about the sort of path and encouragement to
Palaestinian stata, but nothing concrete.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
What is concrete in.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
That peace agreement is that Hamas is isolated and separated
from the Palestinian people.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
But so just quickly, just get to my question there.
Do you think the Saudis will sign the Abraham Accords
in the absence of something very concrete about a two
state solution Israel certainly won't allow.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
I mean, let's see how this plays out. If Amas
is gone, if Amas is banned from participating in a
new government, if Hamas is disarmed, then you have a
very different dynamic in Gaza. Very I mean, you know,
we'll see what the Palestinian people can do. But if
you have if you have a Gaza with no Mamas,
(09:22):
the Palestinian people are there, policed by other Arab countries
in the region and fort and forcing to have peace
between Israel and the Palestinians.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I think that that was the genius.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Of the peace agreement, which is that it's no longer
in people's minds.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Well Hamas is the Palestinian people.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Is to say, well Hamas is something separate from the
Palestinian people, and I think that's why all the Arab
countries went along with it.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Kat's website is kt McFarland dot com. You can follow
her on ex formerly Twitter at real kt McFarland, and
her book Revelation, Trump, Washington and We the People is
still a great read and very applicable even these years later. Kat,
thanks so much as always for joining us, and I'll
talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Thank you all right,
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