Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Trey Goudy truly one of the goodguys. He hosts an excellent show on
Sunday evenings on Fox News called SundayNight in America. He is not so
recently anymore liberated from the perils andbrain damage of serving in Congress. He's
a former prosecutor, and he alsowrote. Last time he was on the
(00:20):
show, we were talking about hisgreat book called Start, Stay, or
Leave. The Art of Decision Making, which I come into everybody who's thinking
about making big decisions in their lives, especially if you know you're in your
twenties and you really want to understandhow to make decisions throughout the course of
your life. Starts, stay,or leave. Trey, is really good
to have you back on the show. I'm so glad that you were able
(00:42):
to make time for us. Thankyou for having me. And the last
time anyone said that number of nicethings in a row about me was the
last time I was with you,So thank you for that. All right,
I mean them all, I meanthem all. All right. Let
me just set up our conversation thisway. You and I are less than
a year apart in age. Myfirst vote for president was for Reagan in
(01:07):
his re election, and wouldn't surpriseme if that was your first vote for
president too, because we're just lessthan a year apart. And I was
asking myself and listeners recently, canyou name a vote for president that you're
proud of? And for me,it's that And then when I voted for
the libertarian Harry Brown, like somenumber of years later, and I've never
(01:30):
been proud of any recent vote forpresident. Sometimes you vote for who you
have to. And so I saythat by way of kind of introducing how
much the Republican Party has changed.And you were talking about this a lot
on your show on Sunday with DarylAisa and Jason Chafitz and the dysfunction,
But so let me just start withthat kind of macro thing. How do
(01:52):
you think about the change in theRepublican in the Republican Party? And I
realized some people love the change.I don't. Yeah, Well, what
I think is the Republican Party isnot a monolith, and Chairman Issen made
that point, but I think it'sworth bearing out there's a big difference between
running as a Republican and a rubyred district in South Carolina and fighting for
(02:14):
your life in a district that JoeBiden or Bill Clinton or Barack Obama won
in New York or California. SoI think the difference when I served was
even if I walked off the floorof the House having voted differently from one
of my Republican colleagues. We weresensitive to the fact that we represented different
districts. But because everything has becomenationalized, and because it is, you
(02:40):
know, if you stray away fromthe orthodoxy as preached by some conservative commentator
who, by the way, hasnever held office before, that you were
not just wrong. You're a globalistrhino. Or I heard the word trader
used in connection with Mike Johnson,which you are welcome to disagree with Mike
(03:02):
Johnson's position on Ukraine or Israel orfill in the blank. But the last
time I checked, being a traderis a crime for which you can be
put to death. When your ownmembers are using that language about you,
then you should not wonder why youare soon headed to be a minority party
(03:22):
again. If you were a bettingman right now, would you think that
the House is going to go flipback to the Democrats? In This election
a tough one because people dislike theeffect of Biden policies so much, and
I don't know. It's a trickyelection to try to predict. Well,
here's what I have to base iton. We thought that we would see
(03:44):
a red wave in twenty twenty two, and we should have based on policies
in the direction of the country andwhat people thought and felt, and it
turned out to be a red mirage. So we underperformed in the midterms in
twenty twenty two. Every indicator thatshould lead towards success in twenty twenty four
(04:06):
is present. People think the countryis headed in the wrong direction, the
world is on fire. Joe Biden'scognitive abilities are under question. We seem
to have nominated a better cast ofcharacters for the Senate. But you know,
Rossta House does not come down toruby red districts that can't be lost
(04:29):
no matter what it really comes downAnd this will shock people New York because
Lee's Elden over performed in California becauseyou had a speaker who actually cared about
some of the races in California.That's what made us a majority. It's
not Alabama, it's New York.Yeah, the House and the Senate are
(04:50):
indeed extremely different. I don't wantto spend a lot of time with you
on nuts and bolts politics because Ithink you and I both find that a
little bit boring, and you've subjectedyour to it for so many years.
But I'm more interested in the philosophicalside, and again some of the stuff
that you talked about with Isa andChafits. Part of the reason I asked
you to be here is just thedivision in the party is not something I've
(05:16):
ever seen before. And you know, historically Democrats do a better job of
staying together and do what the bossestell them to do, not always,
but they do better than Republican Republicanshave more of a mind of their own.
I actually admire Republicans for not alwaysgoing along with what the boss says.
But when you only have a twoor three seat majority, that really,
I think changes things. So froma practical matter, if you were
(05:38):
still in Congress and talking with ThomasMassey, I mean, what would you
be saying to the guy, Well, Massey, I will say this for
Massey, and I also served witha guy named Justin Amash, friend of
mine, and I like you alot. They are true believers, They
are true believers, and I actuallywound up having a really good relationship with
both of them, even though wedisagree on most matters. I never once
(06:01):
questioned their motives. I used tosay about Justin that he should be listened
to but not heard. In otherwords, let's hear him out, but
let's don't do what he says,and he would smile with that. There's
a cast of characters not named Demashor Massy, for whom fame is the
(06:25):
ultimate political virtue. It is allthat matters. If they ran for speaker,
they wouldn't get five votes. Butthey're smart enough to never run for
speaker because you can go on television. Towards the end of my time there,
I would be sitting in a roomwatching Jim Jordan and John Ratcliffe to
(06:46):
the heavy lifting of spending hours questioningwitnesses, and then go watch somebody from
Florida go on television to talk aboutsomething he had nothing to do with,
sogure it out to his credit.If credit's the right word. That you
don't have to work, you don'thave to put in the hours, you
(07:09):
don't have to go over to theDepartment of Justice like Racletive and spend hours
and hours looking through documents. Youjust have to do an interview on Fox
News at eight or nine o'clock atnight, and so others watched that,
and fame became the ultimate political virtue. I mean Madison Cautor. Not to
pick on him, but honestly,I mean what I significance did he do
(07:33):
when he was in the house?Why would you and I even know his
name, right? I mean Ifeel that way about Marjorie Taylor Green.
She might be the ultimate example ofwhat you're talking about. And by the
way, I picked Massy for areason when I asked you, what would
you say to him? Because Ishare with you a much higher appreciation for
(07:54):
Massey, who I know a littlebit. I've had beer with Massey and
Amash is a friend of mine.I know these guys a little He's much
smarter than the other ones, andhe's not only in it for fame.
And I think that if I askedyou, what would you say to Marjorie
Taylor Green, you would probably sayI wouldn't waste my time. So that's
why I asked about Massey, whatwould you say to him? If you
(08:16):
were trying to convince someone who's mostlyrational? Hey, what you're doing right
now with a two seat or threeseat majority is probably not the best thing.
What I would say to Thomas isyou were rightfully indignant at what happened
to Kevin McCarthy. And again,Kevin McCarthy and Thomas Massey are not ideologically
alive. But Thomas was rightfully indignantat the wake Kevin was treated and the
(08:43):
reasons he was treated that way.And what I would say, respectfully to
the gentleman from Kentucky is do nottake out your anger at the eight people
who did what they did to Kevinon Mike Johnson. I understand why you
were angry. They did a hatchetjob on someone and they had no plan
(09:03):
other than to become famous and fundraiseulfof it. But don't blame Mike Johnson
for that, is what I wouldtry to say to Thomas. Okay,
and I'm gonna ask you another whatwould you say to question? But in
this case, imagine that your audienceis let's say a room of constituents or
(09:24):
an ordinary voter who's talking to you, or let's just say you're talking to
me. Right, So, I'mI'm mostly libertarian, not Libertarian party libertarian.
I'm not isolationist and all that,but I very I believe that what's
going on with debt and deficit isan absolute sin that is gonna potentially destroy
the future of my children. AndI believe that what's going on in the
(09:48):
southern border is one of the biggestfailures of a president that I've ever seen
in my entire life, a willful, intentional failure of a president. And
so I share the view of ppeople like many in the Freedom Caucus and
Lauren Bobert and people like that,who say we need to deal with these
things now, they take it thenext step and say, since we haven't
(10:13):
dealt with those things, we alsoshouldn't help Ukraine. I do not take
that step with them. I'm gladwe did the Ukraine thing, but for
well meaning, well intentioned people whosay, we got to do our southern
border first, and we're spending waytoo much money. Therefore, I think
we shouldn't spend the money on weaponssystems for Ukraine. What do you say
(10:35):
to that kind of honest person.I would say, you have to punish
the right person for the right crime. It is not the fault of Ukrainian
women and children that we have notsecured the border. I would say,
I wholeheartedly get where you're coming from. That there seems to be an element
(10:56):
without our country that is more concernedwith Eastern Europe than with South Texas.
I get that. The remedy forthat we had two years to do something.
Don't forget we had the House tosend it and the White House for
two years, and we couldn't evendo what we promised to do, which
was redo so called Obamacare, theAffordable Care Act. We couldn't even get
(11:20):
the ship together long enough to thisgift of governance we were given. We
blew that. So what I wouldtell the American people is trust us again,
trust us one more time. Wewill have sovereign immunity. We will
have border integrity for the following reasons. Has nothing to be do to with
(11:41):
enophobia or racism. It has countriesactually know who's coming and going. And
I will never apologize for that.But why would we punish, or better
yet, reward Vladimir Putin because JoeBiden won't do what he's supposed to do
in South Texas. There's a disconnectthere. I understand their point, but
(12:05):
I think they're punishing the wrong people. So Here's what I would say,
Ross is, how did we losetwo Georgia Senate seats? Yeah, that's
what I would add to Marjorie TaylorGreen, who, by the way,
I've never met, never had aconversation whether, I mean, you you
have two Democrats representing your state,you talk about secession inside, would you
(12:26):
go to it? Biden won yourstate and two Democrats represent you in the
Senate. Indeed, we're talking withTrey Goudy. His excellent Fox News show
is Sunday Night in America and hisexcellent book starts Stay or Leave the Art
of Decision Making? So what isto be done here? So okay,
(12:48):
my first question, can the RepublicanParty get back to a successful place in
getting a real working majority while DonaldTrump is still on the scene as a
major figure in the Republican Party.I think there's a better chance of that
happening if he becomes President Trump candidateTrump particularly. I mean, look,
(13:13):
it is incredibly hard to be acriminal defendant, It is incredibly hard to
be a candidate republic office. Itis next to impossible to be both at
the same time. And you wereonce the leader of the free world.
Soho, You're not used to peopletelling you what you can and cannot do.
He's in a very tough spot rightnow. He's gone out of his
way to be supportive of Mike Johnson, He's done it twice. But he
(13:37):
also went out of his way attimes to be supportive of Kevin McCarthy.
So I think what President Trump,and I've been talked to him in a
long long time. I haven't playedgolf with him in a long long time,
but my sense is that he's tryingto not offend any parts of what
used to be the Republican family butis now an turn I seine war.
(14:01):
So he did step out on alimb and defend Mike Johnson and say he's
doing a good job. He evendid it after the pfisor reauthorization and the
Ukraine vote. So I think he'strying to do that. But because of
social media, you have people whohave elevated. You've got Republican members of
(14:22):
Congress who are actively working against candidatesthat Donald Trumps endorsed. I mean,
Matt Gates is a perfect example.Donald Trump is endorsed one Republican candidate,
Matt Gates is going and raising moneyand supporting another one. So you have
these people who are already trying toreplace Donald Trump when he's still very much
(14:46):
alive. I mean, the body'snot even cold, and they look in
the mirror and they see the leaderof the so called Maga movement. So
I don't blame Look, I thinkhere's where I do. I'm the president
a little bit. Politics is aboutaddition, when you win, you should
tell jokes. You should not makefun of what people have on You should
(15:09):
not refer to someone that you actuallyhired as bird brain. That does not
persuade voters. This is an eminentlywinnable election. In fact, I'm not
sure Joe Biden can win. Ijust think Republicans can lose. Yeah,
I agree, it's a great wayto put it. We've got a few
(15:30):
minutes left. Let me ask aboutan issue. Maybe there are a few
big issues, the border and theeconomy and all, but the thing that's
destroyed Republicans for a couple of electionsnow is abortion. And you and I
probably have different personal views on abortion, but I actually thought that Donald Trump
took an incredibly smart position on abortionwhen he said leave it to the States.
(15:50):
He pissed off Mike Pence but MikePence's view is not one that can
win a presidency in America. AndI don't know if you share Mike Pence's
view. I think you're a littleto the right of me on this issue.
But just in terms of how dowe win, what did you think
of Trump coming out and saying let'sleave this to the states. I think
the President Trump is smart enough,and the polls indicate in twenty twenty two
(16:14):
reflected that while the border and theeconomy are really good issues for Republicans,
and those are the two major issues, there's this smaller subset, this smaller
constellation of issues that in the aggregate, can match those two issues, and
one of them is abortion. Thereare going to be people who show up
at the polls for that issue andthat issue alone. So how that issue
(16:37):
is discussed and I do talk aboutit from time to time, but I
talk about it as someone who isa homicide prosecutor. I actually had,
I actually prosecuted a rape case wherethe young woman became pregnant as a result
of the rape. So it isnot theoretical for me. I mean,
she literally sat in my office andit's none of my business whether she was
(17:00):
going to keep the child an up, and she decided to do so,
it was none of my business.Here's where we have to have a little
bit of consistency. So you saidthat you would be in the camp kind
of the Dobs camp that leave itup to the states. The other side
of the argument to me is educationis not mentioned in the constitution, marriage
(17:23):
is not children, but life istwice. So there is an argument to
be made that we need a universaldefinition of when life or personhood begins.
Because if I'm in Idaho and theambulance takes me one direction, or it
takes me to Washington or ore again, I intellectually have a hard time understanding
(17:48):
why the origin of my life shoulddepend upon the hospital I'm taken to.
But I don't think that that isan argument that Republicans should fall out of
favor on. There are very solidarguments on both sides of that issue.
Where I don't think there are anysolid arguments are putting women in prison.
I think that is an election loser. Yeah, and you know, extending
(18:12):
this part of the conversation further probablyrequires being in person with some good bourbon
But my one constitutional argument that Iwould make to you is if your argument
about the Constitution mentioning life and thereforeperhaps there's a role there for abortion,
then in that case I would say, well, then murder should also be
(18:33):
a federal crime. And it isn'texcept if it's committed in while committing some
other federal crime. But murder generallyis not a federal crime. So if
I would say, if you're goingto say that there's a federal role for
abortion, then you should say thatmurders should also be a federal crime.
Don't. But I'm a libertarian andI'm not religious, and I don't think
it should be. But I'm happyto discuss it over Bourbon and I think
(18:55):
that that is exactly the tone andthe tenor with which Republicans should discuss that
issue. But when you begin totry to out sanctify one another, there
are very good arguments on the allowingthe fifty states to decide. I think
(19:15):
there is. I'm in the minoritywhat I just said about light being in
the Constitution twice, and therefore there'san argument that is a minority view,
so I shouldn't expect to win.But you and I just proved you could
have a civil conversation about it.I think where we go south is when
you have state legislative bodies that therewas one lawmaker in my state, one
(19:41):
lawmaker who thought that it should bea capital eligible offense, and my friends
in the pro life movement get madat me from mentioning that state. It
is just one lawmaker. Guess whoelse mentions it? The mainstream media,
when you're only as good as thecraziest member of your party, You're going
to lose my wife. You wantto talk about a religious conservative pew,
(20:04):
You're going to lose my wife ifyou start talking like that about women and
the issue of abortion. All right, two very fast last questions. A
listener wants to know who styles yourhair a blind messuse that uses rubber semen
at YMCA. And last question comesfrom me on a scale of one to
(20:27):
six and a half. How happyare you not to be in Congress right
now? You know that is aserious question, and I'm going to give
you a serious answer. I metthe man that will preach my funeral,
and I would not have met himhad I not been in Congress. John
Ratcliffe will be one of my pallbearers. I would not have met him
(20:48):
had I not gone to Congress,having said that it was a mistake for
me to run, and the bestjob I ever had was being a prosecutor.
And I wish that I had stayed. And it breaks my heart to
say that, because I met somepeople who changed my life. But it
was a mistake for me to runfor Congress. Wow. Fascinating answer.
(21:08):
Not entirely surprising, having spoken toyou a bit and read your book and
all that. But that's something andjust generally for people. You know,
folks have asked me from time totime, Rossie, want to run for
office? And my answer is hellnow. Trey Goudy's wonderful television show with
Sunday Night in America on Fox NewsChannel. His book is Start, Stay,
(21:29):
or Leave The Art of Decision Making. Dude, I know you're a
really busy guy, and I'm trulygrateful for your making time for us.
Appreciate it. Listen, I coulddo this another hour. I feel like
you kind of asking. I feellike you're kind of turning off the lights
at the dance club and telling meI gotta go home. I can talk
to you for another hour. We'lldo it another time, for sure.
(21:49):
And my sister lives in Charlotte.So next time I get out there,
I'll get in touch and we'll connectfor an actual bourbon. I will get
permission from my probation officer to leavethe state, and I will beat you
in Charlotte. We're all drive downthere. Thanks for doing this trade.
Really appreciate it. All right,man, take care of yourself.
Trey Goudy truly one of the goodguys. He hosts an excellent show on
Sunday evenings on Fox News called SundayNight in America. He is not so
recently anymore liberated from the perils andbrain damage of serving in Congress. He's
a former prosecutor, and he alsowrote. Last time he was on the
(00:20):
show, we were talking about hisgreat book called Start, Stay, or
Leave. The Art of Decision Making, which I come into everybody who's thinking
about making big decisions in their lives, especially if you know you're in your
twenties and you really want to understandhow to make decisions throughout the course of
your life. Starts, stay,or leave. Trey, is really good
to have you back on the show. I'm so glad that you were able
(00:42):
to make time for us. Thankyou for having me. And the last
time anyone said that number of nicethings in a row about me was the
last time I was with you,So thank you for that. All right,
I mean them all, I meanthem all. All right. Let
me just set up our conversation thisway. You and I are less than
a year apart in age. Myfirst vote for president was for Reagan in
(01:07):
his re election, and wouldn't surpriseme if that was your first vote for
president too, because we're just lessthan a year apart. And I was
asking myself and listeners recently, canyou name a vote for president that you're
proud of? And for me,it's that And then when I voted for
the libertarian Harry Brown, like somenumber of years later, and I've never
(01:30):
been proud of any recent vote forpresident. Sometimes you vote for who you
have to. And so I saythat by way of kind of introducing how
much the Republican Party has changed.And you were talking about this a lot
on your show on Sunday with DarylAisa and Jason Chafitz and the dysfunction,
But so let me just start withthat kind of macro thing. How do
(01:52):
you think about the change in theRepublican in the Republican Party? And I
realized some people love the change.I don't. Yeah, Well, what
I think is the Republican Party isnot a monolith, and Chairman Issen made
that point, but I think it'sworth bearing out there's a big difference between
running as a Republican and a rubyred district in South Carolina and fighting for
(02:14):
your life in a district that JoeBiden or Bill Clinton or Barack Obama won
in New York or California. SoI think the difference when I served was
even if I walked off the floorof the House having voted differently from one
of my Republican colleagues. We weresensitive to the fact that we represented different
districts. But because everything has becomenationalized, and because it is, you
(02:40):
know, if you stray away fromthe orthodoxy as preached by some conservative commentator
who, by the way, hasnever held office before, that you were
not just wrong. You're a globalistrhino. Or I heard the word trader
used in connection with Mike Johnson,which you are welcome to disagree with Mike
(03:02):
Johnson's position on Ukraine or Israel orfill in the blank. But the last
time I checked, being a traderis a crime for which you can be
put to death. When your ownmembers are using that language about you,
then you should not wonder why youare soon headed to be a minority party
(03:22):
again. If you were a bettingman right now, would you think that
the House is going to go flipback to the Democrats? In This election
a tough one because people dislike theeffect of Biden policies so much, and
I don't know. It's a trickyelection to try to predict. Well,
here's what I have to base iton. We thought that we would see
(03:44):
a red wave in twenty twenty two, and we should have based on policies
in the direction of the country andwhat people thought and felt, and it
turned out to be a red mirage. So we underperformed in the midterms in
twenty twenty two. Every indicator thatshould lead towards success in twenty twenty four
(04:06):
is present. People think the countryis headed in the wrong direction, the
world is on fire. Joe Biden'scognitive abilities are under question. We seem
to have nominated a better cast ofcharacters for the Senate. But you know,
Rossta House does not come down toruby red districts that can't be lost
(04:29):
no matter what it really comes downAnd this will shock people New York because
Lee's Elden over performed in California becauseyou had a speaker who actually cared about
some of the races in California.That's what made us a majority. It's
not Alabama, it's New York.Yeah, the House and the Senate are
(04:50):
indeed extremely different. I don't wantto spend a lot of time with you
on nuts and bolts politics because Ithink you and I both find that a
little bit boring, and you've subjectedyour to it for so many years.
But I'm more interested in the philosophicalside, and again some of the stuff
that you talked about with Isa andChafits. Part of the reason I asked
you to be here is just thedivision in the party is not something I've
(05:16):
ever seen before. And you know, historically Democrats do a better job of
staying together and do what the bossestell them to do, not always,
but they do better than Republican Republicanshave more of a mind of their own.
I actually admire Republicans for not alwaysgoing along with what the boss says.
But when you only have a twoor three seat majority, that really,
I think changes things. So froma practical matter, if you were
(05:38):
still in Congress and talking with ThomasMassey, I mean, what would you
be saying to the guy, Well, Massey, I will say this for
Massey, and I also served witha guy named Justin Amash, friend of
mine, and I like you alot. They are true believers, They
are true believers, and I actuallywound up having a really good relationship with
both of them, even though wedisagree on most matters. I never once
(06:01):
questioned their motives. I used tosay about Justin that he should be listened
to but not heard. In otherwords, let's hear him out, but
let's don't do what he says,and he would smile with that. There's
a cast of characters not named Demashor Massy, for whom fame is the
(06:25):
ultimate political virtue. It is allthat matters. If they ran for speaker,
they wouldn't get five votes. Butthey're smart enough to never run for
speaker because you can go on television. Towards the end of my time there,
I would be sitting in a roomwatching Jim Jordan and John Ratcliffe to
(06:46):
the heavy lifting of spending hours questioningwitnesses, and then go watch somebody from
Florida go on television to talk aboutsomething he had nothing to do with,
sogure it out to his credit.If credit's the right word. That you
don't have to work, you don'thave to put in the hours, you
(07:09):
don't have to go over to theDepartment of Justice like Racletive and spend hours
and hours looking through documents. Youjust have to do an interview on Fox
News at eight or nine o'clock atnight, and so others watched that,
and fame became the ultimate political virtue. I mean Madison Cautor. Not to
pick on him, but honestly,I mean what I significance did he do
(07:33):
when he was in the house?Why would you and I even know his
name, right? I mean Ifeel that way about Marjorie Taylor Green.
She might be the ultimate example ofwhat you're talking about. And by the
way, I picked Massy for areason when I asked you, what would
you say to him? Because Ishare with you a much higher appreciation for
(07:54):
Massey, who I know a littlebit. I've had beer with Massey and
Amash is a friend of mine.I know these guys a little He's much
smarter than the other ones, andhe's not only in it for fame.
And I think that if I askedyou, what would you say to Marjorie
Taylor Green, you would probably sayI wouldn't waste my time. So that's
why I asked about Massey, whatwould you say to him? If you
(08:16):
were trying to convince someone who's mostlyrational? Hey, what you're doing right
now with a two seat or threeseat majority is probably not the best thing.
What I would say to Thomas isyou were rightfully indignant at what happened
to Kevin McCarthy. And again,Kevin McCarthy and Thomas Massey are not ideologically
alive. But Thomas was rightfully indignantat the wake Kevin was treated and the
(08:43):
reasons he was treated that way.And what I would say, respectfully to
the gentleman from Kentucky is do nottake out your anger at the eight people
who did what they did to Kevinon Mike Johnson. I understand why you
were angry. They did a hatchetjob on someone and they had no plan
(09:03):
other than to become famous and fundraiseulfof it. But don't blame Mike Johnson
for that, is what I wouldtry to say to Thomas. Okay,
and I'm gonna ask you another whatwould you say to question? But in
this case, imagine that your audienceis let's say a room of constituents or
(09:24):
an ordinary voter who's talking to you, or let's just say you're talking to
me. Right, So, I'mI'm mostly libertarian, not Libertarian party libertarian.
I'm not isolationist and all that,but I very I believe that what's
going on with debt and deficit isan absolute sin that is gonna potentially destroy
the future of my children. AndI believe that what's going on in the
(09:48):
southern border is one of the biggestfailures of a president that I've ever seen
in my entire life, a willful, intentional failure of a president. And
so I share the view of ppeople like many in the Freedom Caucus and
Lauren Bobert and people like that,who say we need to deal with these
things now, they take it thenext step and say, since we haven't
(10:13):
dealt with those things, we alsoshouldn't help Ukraine. I do not take
that step with them. I'm gladwe did the Ukraine thing, but for
well meaning, well intentioned people whosay, we got to do our southern
border first, and we're spending waytoo much money. Therefore, I think
we shouldn't spend the money on weaponssystems for Ukraine. What do you say
(10:35):
to that kind of honest person.I would say, you have to punish
the right person for the right crime. It is not the fault of Ukrainian
women and children that we have notsecured the border. I would say,
I wholeheartedly get where you're coming from. That there seems to be an element
(10:56):
without our country that is more concernedwith Eastern Europe than with South Texas.
I get that. The remedy forthat we had two years to do something.
Don't forget we had the House tosend it and the White House for
two years, and we couldn't evendo what we promised to do, which
was redo so called Obamacare, theAffordable Care Act. We couldn't even get
(11:20):
the ship together long enough to thisgift of governance we were given. We
blew that. So what I wouldtell the American people is trust us again,
trust us one more time. Wewill have sovereign immunity. We will
have border integrity for the following reasons. Has nothing to be do to with
(11:41):
enophobia or racism. It has countriesactually know who's coming and going. And
I will never apologize for that.But why would we punish, or better
yet, reward Vladimir Putin because JoeBiden won't do what he's supposed to do
in South Texas. There's a disconnectthere. I understand their point, but
(12:05):
I think they're punishing the wrong people. So Here's what I would say,
Ross is, how did we losetwo Georgia Senate seats? Yeah, that's
what I would add to Marjorie TaylorGreen, who, by the way,
I've never met, never had aconversation whether, I mean, you you
have two Democrats representing your state,you talk about secession inside, would you
(12:26):
go to it? Biden won yourstate and two Democrats represent you in the
Senate. Indeed, we're talking withTrey Goudy. His excellent Fox News show
is Sunday Night in America and hisexcellent book starts Stay or Leave the Art
of Decision Making? So what isto be done here? So okay,
(12:48):
my first question, can the RepublicanParty get back to a successful place in
getting a real working majority while DonaldTrump is still on the scene as a
major figure in the Republican Party.I think there's a better chance of that
happening if he becomes President Trump candidateTrump particularly. I mean, look,
(13:13):
it is incredibly hard to be acriminal defendant, It is incredibly hard to
be a candidate republic office. Itis next to impossible to be both at
the same time. And you wereonce the leader of the free world.
Soho, You're not used to peopletelling you what you can and cannot do.
He's in a very tough spot rightnow. He's gone out of his
way to be supportive of Mike Johnson, He's done it twice. But he
(13:37):
also went out of his way attimes to be supportive of Kevin McCarthy.
So I think what President Trump,and I've been talked to him in a
long long time. I haven't playedgolf with him in a long long time,
but my sense is that he's tryingto not offend any parts of what
used to be the Republican family butis now an turn I seine war.
(14:01):
So he did step out on alimb and defend Mike Johnson and say he's
doing a good job. He evendid it after the pfisor reauthorization and the
Ukraine vote. So I think he'strying to do that. But because of
social media, you have people whohave elevated. You've got Republican members of
(14:22):
Congress who are actively working against candidatesthat Donald Trumps endorsed. I mean,
Matt Gates is a perfect example.Donald Trump is endorsed one Republican candidate,
Matt Gates is going and raising moneyand supporting another one. So you have
these people who are already trying toreplace Donald Trump when he's still very much
(14:46):
alive. I mean, the body'snot even cold, and they look in
the mirror and they see the leaderof the so called Maga movement. So
I don't blame Look, I thinkhere's where I do. I'm the president
a little bit. Politics is aboutaddition, when you win, you should
tell jokes. You should not makefun of what people have on You should
(15:09):
not refer to someone that you actuallyhired as bird brain. That does not
persuade voters. This is an eminentlywinnable election. In fact, I'm not
sure Joe Biden can win. Ijust think Republicans can lose. Yeah,
I agree, it's a great wayto put it. We've got a few
(15:30):
minutes left. Let me ask aboutan issue. Maybe there are a few
big issues, the border and theeconomy and all, but the thing that's
destroyed Republicans for a couple of electionsnow is abortion. And you and I
probably have different personal views on abortion, but I actually thought that Donald Trump
took an incredibly smart position on abortionwhen he said leave it to the States.
(15:50):
He pissed off Mike Pence but MikePence's view is not one that can
win a presidency in America. AndI don't know if you share Mike Pence's
view. I think you're a littleto the right of me on this issue.
But just in terms of how dowe win, what did you think
of Trump coming out and saying let'sleave this to the states. I think
the President Trump is smart enough,and the polls indicate in twenty twenty two
(16:14):
reflected that while the border and theeconomy are really good issues for Republicans,
and those are the two major issues, there's this smaller subset, this smaller
constellation of issues that in the aggregate, can match those two issues, and
one of them is abortion. Thereare going to be people who show up
at the polls for that issue andthat issue alone. So how that issue
(16:37):
is discussed and I do talk aboutit from time to time, but I
talk about it as someone who isa homicide prosecutor. I actually had,
I actually prosecuted a rape case wherethe young woman became pregnant as a result
of the rape. So it isnot theoretical for me. I mean,
she literally sat in my office andit's none of my business whether she was
(17:00):
going to keep the child an up, and she decided to do so,
it was none of my business.Here's where we have to have a little
bit of consistency. So you saidthat you would be in the camp kind
of the Dobs camp that leave itup to the states. The other side
of the argument to me is educationis not mentioned in the constitution, marriage
(17:23):
is not children, but life istwice. So there is an argument to
be made that we need a universaldefinition of when life or personhood begins.
Because if I'm in Idaho and theambulance takes me one direction, or it
takes me to Washington or ore again, I intellectually have a hard time understanding
(17:48):
why the origin of my life shoulddepend upon the hospital I'm taken to.
But I don't think that that isan argument that Republicans should fall out of
favor on. There are very solidarguments on both sides of that issue.
Where I don't think there are anysolid arguments are putting women in prison.
I think that is an election loser. Yeah, and you know, extending
(18:12):
this part of the conversation further probablyrequires being in person with some good bourbon
But my one constitutional argument that Iwould make to you is if your argument
about the Constitution mentioning life and thereforeperhaps there's a role there for abortion,
then in that case I would say, well, then murder should also be
(18:33):
a federal crime. And it isn'texcept if it's committed in while committing some
other federal crime. But murder generallyis not a federal crime. So if
I would say, if you're goingto say that there's a federal role for
abortion, then you should say thatmurders should also be a federal crime.
Don't. But I'm a libertarian andI'm not religious, and I don't think
it should be. But I'm happyto discuss it over Bourbon and I think
(18:55):
that that is exactly the tone andthe tenor with which Republicans should discuss that
issue. But when you begin totry to out sanctify one another, there
are very good arguments on the allowingthe fifty states to decide. I think
(19:15):
there is. I'm in the minoritywhat I just said about light being in
the Constitution twice, and therefore there'san argument that is a minority view,
so I shouldn't expect to win.But you and I just proved you could
have a civil conversation about it.I think where we go south is when
you have state legislative bodies that therewas one lawmaker in my state, one
(19:41):
lawmaker who thought that it should bea capital eligible offense, and my friends
in the pro life movement get madat me from mentioning that state. It
is just one lawmaker. Guess whoelse mentions it? The mainstream media,
when you're only as good as thecraziest member of your party, You're going
to lose my wife. You wantto talk about a religious conservative pew,
(20:04):
You're going to lose my wife ifyou start talking like that about women and
the issue of abortion. All right, two very fast last questions. A
listener wants to know who styles yourhair a blind messuse that uses rubber semen
at YMCA. And last question comesfrom me on a scale of one to
(20:27):
six and a half. How happyare you not to be in Congress right
now? You know that is aserious question, and I'm going to give
you a serious answer. I metthe man that will preach my funeral,
and I would not have met himhad I not been in Congress. John
Ratcliffe will be one of my pallbearers. I would not have met him
(20:48):
had I not gone to Congress,having said that it was a mistake for
me to run, and the bestjob I ever had was being a prosecutor.
And I wish that I had stayed. And it breaks my heart to
say that, because I met somepeople who changed my life. But it
was a mistake for me to runfor Congress. Wow. Fascinating answer.
(21:08):
Not entirely surprising, having spoken toyou a bit and read your book and
all that. But that's something andjust generally for people. You know,
folks have asked me from time totime, Rossie, want to run for
office? And my answer is hellnow. Trey Goudy's wonderful television show with
Sunday Night in America on Fox NewsChannel. His book is Start, Stay,
(21:29):
or Leave The Art of Decision Making. Dude, I know you're a
really busy guy, and I'm trulygrateful for your making time for us.
Appreciate it. Listen, I coulddo this another hour. I feel like
you kind of asking. I feellike you're kind of turning off the lights
at the dance club and telling meI gotta go home. I can talk
to you for another hour. We'lldo it another time, for sure.
(21:49):
And my sister lives in Charlotte.So next time I get out there,
I'll get in touch and we'll connectfor an actual bourbon. I will get
permission from my probation officer to leavethe state, and I will beat you
in Charlotte. We're all drive downthere. Thanks for doing this trade.
Really appreciate it. All right,man, take care of yourself.
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