On Target 10-4-2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Carter Smith shouldn't have died. Carter Smith should still be here.
Carter Smith was only three years old. The individual who
gave birth to Carter Smith not a mother, but she
gave birth to Carter Smith, is to blame, and hopefully
we'll pay for her actions in this world and beyond.

(00:23):
The person who gave birth poes anything but a mother
to Carter Smith is to blame because she led into
their lives a horrific piece of.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
A thug.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Actually, I should apologize to all the misunderstood thugs out there,
because it's an insult to you to put this piece
of crap in your category. The ultimate thug punk ass
dragon society piece of crap, worthless sob that I speak
of is thirty one year old Sean Perrin. Remember this
name and remember the judge along the way who empowered

(01:02):
his behavior. Joan Perrin came on the scene in Franklin
County around twenty and thirteen, but his ancestry laid the
foundation for his story. A person that appears to be
his father was let's say, not the model citizen. Aggravated
robbery and other things sprinkled his resume, But Sean Antonio Perrin,

(01:24):
the thug of which we speak about today. His career
of crime started small in twenty and thirteen, when he
was charged and convicted of driving without a license. In
twenty fourteen, he was ticketed for some violation with the bicycle.
By the way, he still owes on that ticket, and
actually still owes on the twenty fifteen criminal trespass charge

(01:47):
he earned as well. As a matter of record, I'm
not sure he ever paid any of the fines, because
both of his twenty fifteen seatbelt charges, his twenty fifteen
stop sign charge in his twenty fifteen driving under suspension
charge all still show without standing payments to this day. Minor,

(02:08):
you may say, but all were leading up to his
February twenty sixteen felony of the fourth degree charge of
improper handling of a firearm and his ultimate conviction of
a felony of the third degree charge of having a
weapon as a previously convicted felon. Now you might say, hmm,

(02:30):
he caught of weapons under disability charge. But all we've
spoken about are traffic infractions to this point. Remember we're
only looking at Franklin County adult records. Mister Perrin Well
may have spread his crime spree out in other counties
and may have started long before these adult charges. His
sentence for carrying of firearms illegally as a previously convicted

(02:52):
felon community control probation. I digress, but mister Perrin had
only just begun in Central Ohio. Shortly after weapons his
weapons violation, well, he picked up a DV and assault
charge and a marijuana charge in twenty sixteen. April brought
Old Parron another driving while under suspension charge. In July,

(03:15):
you guessed it, citations for driving under suspension and without
a license. Again, am I starting to paint the picture?
July twenty sixteen proved to be a bad month for him,
because after his traffic charges well came another caring concealed
weapon charge, a felony drug possession charge, a felony tampering

(03:38):
with evidence charge, and yet another felony weapons under disability charge.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
He was sentenced to two.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Years in jail, and the judge revoked his previous community
control as he should have. Mister Perrin was now a
guest at the Extended Stay Gray Bar Hotel, where presumably
he would stay out of trouble.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
But Old Sean Perrin just could not get it. Together.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
The next year, while in the clink, he was charged
with conveyance of drugs in jail where he is found
to be smuggling. I'm sure just a misunderstanding. He was smuggling,
he was pushing cocaine.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
There you have it.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Another six months in prison, but appears the judge made
it concurrent to his previous sentence.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
So what the heck, no harm, no foul.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Not sure how it all came about came to be,
but records show in twenty seventeen, just a year later,
when I assumed he was still locked up, well, he
was out for some reason and soon back to business
August of twenty seventeen. Possession of drugs August of twenty seventeen,
four counts of driving under suspension. Rehabilitation just did not

(04:56):
seem to be working well with Sean. Over the next year,
he continued to be a thug, and in June of
twenty nineteen, this not so smart person picked up yet
another felony, improper handling of firearms and a felony for
having a weapon while being a convicted felon or weapons

(05:16):
under disability as is officially called. And oh, he picked
up two more charges driving under suspension in one driving
without a license. His reign of terror continued in twenty
twenty with yet another domestic violence and assault charge.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Warrants for his arrest were everywhere. Twenty twenty one brought.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Another suspension charge, another new operator's license charge in one
new one new OVII charge and oh sorry, I almost
forgot leaving the scene of an accident, and a second
new operator's license charge. Twenty twenty two was quiet for Parrin,
probably because he was peeing in a metal toilet.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
But twenty twenty three.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Again driving under suspension again and for the million trillianth
time driving without a license. Somebody at this point needed
to throw away the damn keita his cell. Twenty twenty
four obstructing official business, and earlier this year twenty twenty five,
another felony charge of having a gun while being a

(06:22):
previously convicted felon, And unfortunately that was not the last
felony charge of having weapons under disability he would see
in twenty twenty five. There's actually two more times, and
unfortunately the last one also had with it a new
charge for this drag on society, mister Sean Perrin, who

(06:46):
has literally terrorized central Ohio, for thirteen years, seemingly getting
slap on the wrist after slap on the wrist, after
slap on the wrist, after slap on the wrist. Paren
picked up a new one last month for a felony
of the first degree for involuntary manslaughter because this damn
felon once again walking around with the firearm left it

(07:09):
unsecured last month at the home of baby Mama for
three year old flip in three year old Carter Smith
to find it and shoot himself, killing himself.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Wow, never saw that coming.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Pay attention to the judges you elect, Pay attention to
the prosecutors you elect. This is unacceptable until we stand
up and say so. The next three year old is
only days away from being taken away senselessly. Go ahead,
tell me again, mister mayor, mister Klein, how a low
to lock up your guns would have helped on target

(07:46):
is next.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Good afternoon. We're not talking.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
We're breadcasting live from the studios of LAPD Firearms Ranging
Training Facility. We're located at nine nine nine Triple nine,
Bethel Road. I'm your host, Eric Edward. What a gorgeous
day there, beautiful day, beautiful, beautiful day.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
Lucky I'm here.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
We are lucky you're here, Ed, we are truly blessed
that you're here today. Yes, guys, we are the owners
of LAPD Firearms Range and Training Facility and are active
in law enforcement. But for one hour on Saturdays, we
put together a group of firearm experts to discuss new
products in the market, training tips, and oftentimes political topics
surrounding the Second Amendment. Our commandment, though, has always been

(08:26):
to bring you facts about our industries and help listeners
and customers with safe, responsible ownership of firearms. Guys, before
we go any further, I want to thank our good
friend Brian Steele and Jim Scanlon for jumping on last
week to talk about security at churches. Unfortunately, shortly thereafter,
I think the next day another horrific church shooting in Michigan.

(08:47):
I think something happened overseas this week too. Is it continues.
It's something we're going to have to take seriously in
address and it's so sickening to think about that that
you can, even in a place of worship, go in
and be prety. But it is the world we live
in today. But thanks both of them for jumping on
in their commitment to getting the churches secured. Let's say,

(09:11):
oh today, for today, we actually have two guests. First,
it is going to be a good friend of mine,
Rex Gore, he actually founded a Black Wing shooting center,
has been has been a really good friend since we
started the store. A great person, a great family. We're
gonna hear about their twenty thirty anniversary, twenty three years
ed they've been around, and he's gonna give us a
little insight on a little insight on why he got

(09:33):
into the field, but then also on where he sees
it going This year has been a little bit of
a tough year in the firearms industry, and it's always
good to get his take on where he sees it
going forward. At twelve forty though, we're going to we're
gonna welcome someone on the show that you probably don't recognize,
at least not by name, but you may have read

(09:54):
one of his three hundred published articles.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Three hundred article day, that's a lot that is has a.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Book out there on Amazon, and they're all about teaching
survival techniques to civilians and law enforcement, and so it
is something that definitely you're gonna listen to, and that
is going to be coming up around twelve thirty five,
twelve forty guys, and don't forget to mark your calendars.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Gotta get a babysitter for the day. Do what you
have to do.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
Be here if you can on October twenty fifth, because
on that day Columbus City Prosecutor client is going to
be here in studio with this Edward.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Can you believe that you know what? I'm surprised.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
I mean, I've gone I've gone full circle with how
to approach it. I'm really happy that he's coming on
and it will be a great fact based.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Conversation.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
It will be I'm looking forward to that. So that
is coming up just in a couple of weeks. Like
think our sponsors, US Law Shield, Jackson, Egress, Windows, Black
Wing Shooting Center and of course River's Edge Cutlery who
make the show possible each week. Joining me today in
the LAPD Studios off of probation Parole and the bracelet's
gone off your ankle, Ed it is, Yes, welcome back,

(11:07):
Thanks welcome Yeah, Beck, you know next time you tell
the judge that you need to at least be allowed
to come here of this.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Hey, you know, things up in Morrow County are a
lot stiffer down here than apparently.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
So yeah, yeah, you do that down here and stuff
be fine.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Now I've seen some guys go go get put away
for a probation violation for eighteen months. I mean, I'm
not going to get into it, but I mean it
was all he did was cross the property in the back,
and the judge said that's it.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
It's amazing how justice is not carried out the same
account it and it goes back, just like we said,
it goes back to.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Our elected officials. It goes back.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
You know the shooter at the ice facility in Dallas, Yep, convict,
it's felon with a gun.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
I mean, we're not serious.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
I mean, all these people predominantly on the left side
of the political I want to do everything to take
guns away and to ken you to continue to impede
upon the rights of law abiding citizens. Zach Klein, the
mayor here, you know, we're gonna make a law that
you have to lock up guns. It's not gonna do
anything to affect the thugs such as Sean Parrin on

(12:16):
the street. They need to We need to get together
and come up with it.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
Is there gonna be k gloves when I don't.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Want to say, kidlet it's gonna be respectful. It's gonna
be respectful, and it's going to be fact based. It's
not gonna be I don't. I don't go on their
side and go to an emotion based thing.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
It's gonna be.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Fact And if I'm hoping ed, I'm hoping we walk
away and he tells me something I don't know, and
I can say, you know what. We don't agree on
some stuff, but I agree on that. Let's go and
let's let's do something that's gonna affect change. So I'm
keeping it an open mind. Guys, if you're missed a show,
you can always catch the podcast at six ten WTV
in dot com. That's on iHeartRadio. It is really everywhere
you get your podcast. We are out there. We're gonna

(12:55):
jump to a quick break because on the other side
we have my good friend waiting for us, Rex Score
from Black Wing Shooting Center. We're all Target broadcasting a
lot from the studios of LPD Farms Arranger.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
We'll be back after the short break. Welcome back ton Target.
I'm you.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
Here's Derek joined today in the LPD studios. I got
big ed to my right. Zach is pulling the levers
for us today. Thank you so much, Zach for everything
giving lady.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
No, if we're still on, it's not more.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
The in house studio sure is loud.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Today, Yeah, it is talking amongst themselves, guys. Our next
guest is a very good friend of ours and he's
been a good friend for since we've opened the store,
a great advocate for the Second Amendment, and I'm sure
you've all been to his facility because it's just beautiful.
I want to introduce our good friend Rex Gore to

(13:45):
the show of Black Wing Shooting Center.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
How are you, sir?

Speaker 4 (13:48):
I'm doing great, Eric, How are you today?

Speaker 2 (13:50):
Good? So let me get this straight.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
I'm just making sure I have my notes straight now
that your semi retire. Are you on a beach somewhere
or how does that work?

Speaker 4 (13:58):
Well, I I'm in and out of Delaware U quite often,
and as you know, my son Mark is running the
operation on a day to day basis. But yeah, unfortunately
I'm out of town today so I could be in
the studio, but actually up in the you know, some
some might say beautiful state of Michigan looking at the

(14:18):
lake this morning as we talk or this afternoon as
we talked.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
You know what's funny, that's where John, who's normally on
the show, is cover.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
I know, are you with John Chands?

Speaker 4 (14:28):
No, I haven't seen him yet today, but today's early Rex.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
You know what, we wouldn't have you on and stuff.
You guys are hitting a great milestone twenty three years
at your location up there in Delaware for Black Wing
and you've always had such a great insight into the industry.
You've helped us early on and throughout, you know, the
last thirteen years for us, you know, talking to us
about the changing climate of the Shooting Sports Foundation and stuff,

(14:56):
and so I wanted to have you on talk about
a little bit just off like why did you even
get into this field and how the black Wings start,
and then we'll maybe talk a little bit about where
you see the whole industry going.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
Okay, great, Yeah, First of all, it's an honor obvious
to be on your show and appreciate you taking time
to let us talk about what we do as well. Yeah,
it's been a fast twenty three years for sure, and
you know it's interesting as you know, I mean, I'm
from the South and we ended up in Ohio back
in the early nineties, do it a job promotion in

(15:33):
a cooly unrelated industry, and I found myself up here,
you know, fourteen hundred miles from the nearest relative as time,
and but really loved the community, really loved the state
of Ohio and the seasons, and so we decided to
when job opportunities changed, we decided to stay in Ohio.

(15:55):
And that's when when I first got involved in the industry.
I grew up hunting and fishing in the South with
the love of the outdoor and a passion for you know,
firearms in this second Amendment, so it's somewhat natural that
I got involved in the industry, you know, back then,
and which you know, my first venture was the New

(16:16):
Albany Shooting Range back in the late nineties, and then
from there, you know, we transitioned over sold that to
my partner at the time, and then built the facility
up in Delaware, Black Wing Shooting Center, which was really
what I wanted to do initially, and that was built
a full service shooting facility, you know, a world class

(16:40):
facility that was pretty much unmatched across the United States.
So that's kind of how we got up there. I
don't know. People always ask would you do it again?
I'm not sure it a I have a passion for
obviously for the Second Amendment and to help continue to
grow the sport and protect our rights as you do
as well. And so it's been a fun venture, but

(17:03):
it's a rocky ride. As you know, We've had a
lot of ups and downs, and the industry is very volatile,
which probably most people don't see that if they're not
in the industry, but you know, every every event, every
political change, creates a lot of volatility in the market.
So it makes it a rough business to run and

(17:25):
to operate in. And unfortunately, you know, as you know,
the profitability is not great, so you know, you've got
to make a lot of wise decisions and you know,
a lot of stressful days and sleepless nights to make
it go. But all in all, it's great at great industry,
a lot of great people and and something that you know,

(17:48):
I think you're in and those who succeed do well
because they have a passion for what we do. And
it's not it's not one of those businesses that you
look at and go, oh, man, I can make a
lot of money or I can get rich doing that
to the steps about that, right, But if you want,
you know, if you want to have a good, good
career and something that's exciting is changing every day, then

(18:08):
you know, it's a terrific feel to be in.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
And I think we.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
All part of it is, like you mentioned, almost a
passion to carry on and to speak out for the
Second Amendment. I mean, it's certainly not a a money
making venture that there's probably certainly a lot more uh,
you know, profitable businesses to be and even from a
retail standpoint, I mean, as you mentioned, it's so up

(18:33):
and down and reliant on politics and current affairs and
you know, all kinds of stuff that's going on. It's
hard to maintain stability and to provide the stability for
your employees when there's so much out of your control
that affects it. And you guys have done such a
great job having you know, kind of getting into the

(18:55):
trap and skeet market up there.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Your facility. How many years now have you been a
five star facility?

Speaker 4 (19:03):
You know, we just got re certified the other day.
But you know, early on in the development of the NSSF,
which is a National Shooting Sports Foundation which created the
five star rating system. You know, we I at the
time was involved with them on on one of their
boards and we helped develop that system. And so I

(19:28):
don't know, it's you know, early on after we opened
and you know, we've h the property, you know, I
purchased in two thousand and two. We opened the main
building in four and we had the n SSF out
to do the rating in which we obtained the five
star probably you know, only a few years after that.
So it's been it's been a long time, and it's

(19:50):
been a great you know, a great accomplishment for us
and something that we worked at every day. Strive to
not only provide a five star facility it's easy to build,
you know, an ice building and all that, but also
to provide a five star experience and customer service to
our customers. So I mean that continues to be our

(20:12):
main focus even with Mark run the show now, is
to is to really provide and continue to provide that
five star experience, and we strive hard every day to
do that.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
And I'm always whenever I come up to visit you guys,
I'm always jealous because you, I mean, you have a
beautiful building, beautiful showroom. I mean, we're you know, we've
kind of had to in some regards to make do
with what was given to us here because of the
location and so forth. But you know, you guys, everything
up there when you walk in, it's it's very very

(20:45):
nice every time. I mean, great employees and so forth.
So I'm always eager to jump up there and see
you guys. Are you able to hang on for until
after the bottom of the hour news for a minute?

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah? Sure, yeah, let's do that.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Let's go to the bottom of the hour news and
we come back on the other side. I want to
talk a little bit with you, Rex about where you
see the industry going and maybe how the customer has
changed over the last twenty three years of being in business.
Is it a different type of customer now that you're
seeing and are you seeing the youth get into it.
So we'll get into that a little bit more after
the bottom of the hour news. We're on Target broadcasting
live from the studios of LPED Firearms and Range, and

(21:20):
we'll be back.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
After the break. Welcome back to on Target.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
I'm here Steric joined today in the LPD studio. I
got big ed to my right finally as you could
join us. Edward big Ad to my right, but on
the phone with us right now is a good friend
of mine, Rex Score, who started Black Wing Shooting Center
up there in Delaware.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
Rex.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
When we went into the break, we were talking about
the state of the industry right now. It's down. I
mean this, you know, there's by some reports it's down.
I'm here in twenty to thirty percent over last year.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Is that kind of what you're hearing as.

Speaker 4 (21:49):
Well what they call the Trump slump two point zero,
which you know, anytime, you know, the Republicans seemed to
be in office, things flow down a little bit as
far as the demand for retail products. But yeah, we're
hearing about the same thing. I mean, with us, and
I'm sure with you. With ranges, we have, you know,
a little more opportunity to kind of maintain a little

(22:11):
more even kill. You know, retail is definitely off, way
off all over the country, and fortunately for some of
us who have services and other things to offer, we
can kind of manage that volatility a little bit. But
it's definitely soft. And you know, I think you will
continue to be I mean, I think we're going to
see you know, at least the rest of this term

(22:32):
and maybe even the next if JD gets into office,
you know, being a little soft on you know, it
won't be helping us drive sales, I guess on the
retail side. So but all in all, I think the
industry is is more back to normal, uh, kind of
what we saw before COVID, and you know, we seem
to change the world in a lot of different ways.

(22:54):
So yeah, I don't see anything major coming up that's
going to change that.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, And I think, I mean, the one good thing,
if there is good for the consumer out of this,
I think it's it's brought prices down a little bit more.
I know, at least on the AMO side of things,
we're starting to get, you know, close to those pre
COVID prices on some mo and everything. So maybe from
that standpoint, it's a it's a good thing, but it's
certainly still when you're in the business, it's a few

(23:21):
sleepless nights, as you say, anything big on the horizon
for the next twenty three years with you guys.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
You know, we're focusing on, you know, doing some remodeling
and clean up. You know, Mark and I talk weekly about,
you know, how to stay ahead of the consumers and
trying to figure out what they're wants, needs are as
you mentioned earlier. You know, I spent a long time
figuring out what our customers wanted, and unfortunately, those who

(23:51):
are my age are aging out, and you know, they're
they're selling more guns to us than than they're buying
from us. So we're trying to figure out, you know,
what the younger generations want, not only to purchase, but
what do they want to do. So we're continuing to
work and mold our business around that. But all in all,
nothing real significant. We're just trying to hang in there

(24:12):
and fight to fight and continue to grow the shooting sports,
which is our primary mission. You know, we have a
lot of youth programs. We've got I think five high
school trap shooting clubs now that we host a lot
of positive things coming out and both the female and
the youth market and the shooting sports. So we're continue

(24:33):
to work hard to drive and expand that great.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Great one last question for you, kind of off topic.
I'm sure you've kept up on some of these shootings
at the places of worship. I know it has to
be on your mind a little bit. We go to
the same church. Is that something that has crossed your mind? Now,
does that come into play a little bit more now
when you.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
Go to church, Well, it makes me want to carry
my gun. Yeah, But yeah, it's a sad state. I mean,
the world's you know, in a crazy place right now,
and you know, it seems like every day that there's
something going on. And it definitely is concerning and definitely
something that we as supporters of the Second Amendment, have

(25:17):
to be be on top of and continue to get
out there and help people understand this. It's not the
gun and it's the problem.

Speaker 5 (25:26):
It's it's the.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
Person behind that gun. And you know we talk about
that a lot, but it seems like, you know, there's
certain faction out there that doesn't understand that. So, yes,
it is concerning, and I think because of social media
and the readiness of news today, it gets blasted all
over I'm nice sure if it was a whole lot different,

(25:48):
you know, fifty to one hundred years ago, it's just
today we hear about it the second it happens, and
you know, it gets blasted all over the news. So
but something that we all in the industry continue to
want to to help try to reduce and Rix.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
I got one last question for you here as we
go into the last thirty seconds. So this might be
the most important question of the whole discussion, and it
came from the audience. They want to know when you're
gonna buy me that beer that you've kept promising now
for years.

Speaker 4 (26:18):
Well, we need to do that. We need to make
that happen. I was thinking about that while I was
on the break, and when I get back in town,
we'll have to get together.

Speaker 5 (26:25):
And do that.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
All right, that sounds great, Hey, thank you so much
for jumping on today. Congratulations twenty three years up there.
If you haven't been up to his facility, which I
don't know how you haven't, you got to go check
out black Wing Shooting Center up there in Delaware and
all they.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Have to offer.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Thanks so much for jumping on, and we'll certainly check
in with you when you're back in town.

Speaker 4 (26:43):
All right, sounds great, and have great rest to day.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Mister Rex score black Wing Student Center. Guys, let's go
to a break. On the other side, we're going to
get to a guest that you're starting going to want
to hear. Mister George Williams is going to be with
you with us, and he has a lot to say
about defense. We're all talking at broadcasting live from the
studios of LPD Farms Range.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
We'll be back after the break. Welcome back to on Talget.
I'm your host.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Derek joined today in the live LPD studios. Big Ed
has shown up. We've got a pretty good sized crowd
here today.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Look at that Ed. I can't even see to the door,
you know. And of course mister Bachman's there.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
You know, that's a staple of the live studio audience.
There you are, up there, you are. Come on now,
let's get with it, guys, our next guest. He may
not recognize his name, but you've surely read one of
his three hundred published articles, publications out there in the
NRA magazine, such as Shooting Illustrated law enforcement training sites

(27:43):
such as Caliber Press, a book on Amazon, countless witness
expert witness testimonies. He's been a part of the work
of George William spans decades, and his training of law
enforcement and civilians on how to stay alive and survive
attacks sat after all over the country. He estimates he

(28:03):
has trained over thirty thousand officers to this point. Amazing today.
We welcome for the first time to the show. Mister
George Williams.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
How are you, sir?

Speaker 5 (28:14):
I am doing well. How are you folks?

Speaker 1 (28:16):
We're good here. We're having a good time, beautiful day.
Cannot complain, you know, George, I'm not gonna lie. I mean,
you kept me up all night last night. You might
not know this, but you kept me up all night
last night clicking on your articles one after another.

Speaker 5 (28:36):
Well, I apologize for that.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
I know I hit you with that, but it's true though.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
When I went out there and I started reading one
or another another, I'm like, jeez. Before I knew it,
I looked at the clock and it was no longer evening.
For those who don't know you by name, the reason
I initially reached out to you was I was on
a plane recently going through probably ten months worth of
the NRA magazine that I was behind on, skimming articles,

(29:02):
and in your recent article called change the Fight, caught
my eye. Tons of articles out there and I usually
like flip through them, but this one stood out and
I found myself hearing or thinking about the approach to
what happens if you were attacked a different way. So
like I do oftentimes, I ripped the article out of

(29:23):
the magazine and sat on my desk for a while
until I reached out to you and had that great conversation.
So today I wanted to bring you on, let people
hear a little bit about yourself, your background, how you
got here, and then I want to get into the
article a little bit.

Speaker 5 (29:38):
Well, I'm going to keep this pretty brief because people
don't want to listen to how incredibly bitching I am.
At the I was a karate instructor. I had my
own school. I thought I was going to do that
for the rest of my life. I started getting police
officers as students, and I I started looking at the

(30:01):
ground truth that my cops looked the same as my
civilian students, and I started asking the police officers what
their training was. I was astounded as a civilian that
they were being taught risky twisties and other very complicated

(30:23):
techniques that me and I'm not God's gift anything, but
I've been doing it fifteen years full time, and I
couldn't do that to somebody other than other children and
people who cooperate. So I started investigating how to train

(30:44):
these law enforcement professionals how to fight. I developed a
non no technique principle based fighting system that applies to
everything that human beings do, from defensive tactics to the
firearms to less lethal to everything that encompasses and without

(31:09):
having to learn any techniques. And so I began training
defensive tactics. I went, I turned thirty, decided that being
poor was cool in college, so I needed to get
a job. I made some calls, got a lucky one
time gig with the state training facility teaching the defensive tactics.

(31:31):
They invited me back and eventually I tested, and it
was the State of California, and I tested and was
selected over thirty five retired police officers or current police officers,
ranging from sergeant to a chief. And I was selected

(31:52):
to be a full time trainer for the State of California.
And I branched out to understanding the law, understanding teaching firearms,
teaching tactics. I started teaching slats, became a full time
trainer at a medium sized agency in central California. All

(32:16):
I did was was put my hands on my cops,
and then my wife and I decided we didn't want
to die in the People's Republic of California, so we
moved up to Washington State before it became the People's Republic.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
So ever since, and now, I mean, your techniques and
your what you've done become so well recognized. I mean,
you're often sought after as an expert witness in a
lot of these cases, which has linked more credibility to
your processes over the years. Let's talk for a second

(32:52):
about the article that you wrote, the Change the Fight,
and why I thought it was so important?

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (32:57):
It talked about things that are happening every day to
any of us, and it talked about defending yourself in
a little bit different of a light. Tell us a
little bit what is the whole concept of changing the
fight regarding an attack?

Speaker 5 (33:11):
Let's leave this in a law enforcement perspective. How many
times have you, a veteran cop, seen one of your
officers continuing to try and put that risk, lock on,
trying to struggle and not succeed and they keep doing
the same thing. When we start getting stressed under threat,

(33:34):
one of the things that our brain does is it
tells us I'm not killed yet, keep doing what I'm doing.
The trouble is if I keep doing the same thing
the same way, and I'm not getting the same results.
I'm going to keep getting them not getting the same results.
So there has to be a level of intellectual and
emotional understanding that this isn't working. I need to change.

(33:58):
So I need to either institute a higher level of force.
I either need to change what I'm doing in order
to break this this cycle of the suspect pulling at
me and I'm pushing or or whatever I'm doing in
order to get this fight done.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
So and one of the lines in the article that
that grabbed my attention, it says, changing the fight meant
doing something equally surprising to the attacker. Uh, and this
disrupting their flow of the fight. And it's really it's
kind of turning the tables. It's almost I read into it.
It's almost going from a defensive posture to being a

(34:40):
little bit on the offensive, you know, and surprising the attacker.
And you go through in the article, you know different things.
You know, one of them stood out when someone grabs you,
they're they're uh, you know, they're they're pulling you.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Uh, you know, what do you do?

Speaker 1 (34:54):
And and you know, you're I think our natural reaction
pulled back. Well, yeah, the pull away, you know, but
you're saying, I mean, what are some of your concepts
in that regard?

Speaker 5 (35:05):
Well, we have to understand that if somebody's pulling me,
they're probably they believe that they're bigger and stronger than
I am. And if I'm if somebody's pulling me and
he's bigger and stronger, then my pulling back means that
I'm not going to be effective. So what I want
to do is to interrupt his ability to understand the
timing of the fight. So if you pull me, I'm

(35:27):
going to push you, and I'm going to push hard
so that all of a sudden you're off balance. You're
trying to figure out how to what what just happened.
I was winning and that creates that that momentary pause
in my decision cycles, which then allows me to capitalize
on it.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, and I mean, it's it seems so simple, and
but it is, at least myself.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
I read the article yesterday, yeah, this morning when you
send it to me, and it was I never thought
about it the way he presented it, that article, And
it would be something where you would catch the attacker
off bounce because he's trying to take you off bounce
by pushing you back or pulling you forward right, and
you assist him by going forward into.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Him right right. And one of the lines too, and
we talked about this on the show. You know, if
during this attack they're trying to get you in a vehicle,
that is in essence the kiss the death. I mean,
the likelihood that you will not survive the attack goes
up tremendously, I mean really really high if you end
up in that vehicle and off the site of where

(36:34):
you're at, so doing anything you can to stay from that. George,
you also talked about somebody if they are if they're
trying to overrun you. One of the things I was
surprised about was you talk at one point about falling
to the ground and when you think about that, if
you're on the ground now, you have your legs there,
and if that attacker is coming down to do harm

(36:57):
to you, there are faces in play and everything else.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Talk about that a little bit, Well.

Speaker 5 (37:03):
This is it generally in the context of somebody's running
at you with a knife. We can't run faster backwards,
and then the guy's running at me. The idea that
I'm going to block that knife and do all the
static things that we were taught in a knife defense
that doesn't work is ludicrous. So what I want to

(37:26):
do is I want to change the fight. And this
is generally going to be in an armed context, whether
it's concealed carry or it's law enforcement. But by falling
to my back and putting my feet to the attacker,
what happens is that changes a fight for him, because
all of a sudden, he's I'm running this guy down.

(37:47):
I'm going to stab him, and once they grab us
and start pumping it, it's going to be very difficult
to defend. By falling to my back and using my boots,
from my feet, my shoes to protect me, now can
access my weapons, and now I just have to worry
about not shooting my feet.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
And that's in your when when I read that in
your article, I immediately went to some of our training
that we've done recently. And I don't know if you
guys have done it, d but we're we're shooting from
our back and you're shooting you know, it sounds a
little bit this or nerving points, but you're shooting between
your legs, right, and it's that exact scenario, so I
could picture that in my mind. I mean, it's all
stuff you know, towards is funny because a lot of this,

(38:29):
once you talk about it and you read the article,
you say kind of like ed and I did, like,
oh that makes sense. And you know, the same old
set that we've been doing for years that doesn't work,
and it's you're fighting muscle against the muscle.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
Yeah, well, we're trained to, you know, keep our distance,
keep your distance from me, you know, the bad guy,
and if he's coming at you, we're backing up and
tell you know, trying to keep our distance, whereas he's
just teaching us the opposite from the article that I
read there, and it makes a lot of sense because
you're changing his his demeanor because he's trying to figure
out why he's he coming at.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Me now, right right.

Speaker 5 (39:04):
And at the same time, every day you are in contact,
physical contact with suspects when you arrest them, and the
most likely time that you're going to be attacked by
surprise is when you're putting the first handcuff on, so
you're already in contact. So keeping distance is really a

(39:26):
good idea before you make contact, but once there's going
to be a detention. Once there's going to be an arrest,
then suddenly you're in contact and you have no more distance,
so you're going to have to be able to deal
with that, and knives and guns come out pretty quickly,
so you have to be able to respond to that
using real world skills.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
You know something too, George.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
When you and I talked previously, what's amazing and you've
been doing this for forty years now, I mean.

Speaker 5 (39:59):
Yeah, it's actually I've just retired last year. I've been
doing it since nineteen eighty two.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
And you're not in law enforcement yourself.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
You've never been in law enforcement, but you have really
dedicated your profession to helping law enforcement and to helping
civilians on surviving these attacks. Have you had students come
back to you and say, you know what, what you
taught me has helped me out there.

Speaker 5 (40:24):
Absolutely, I've whether it's firearms or DT, I've I've had many, well,
dozens and dozens, and they say, you saved my life,
and I always tell them, no, I'm really glad that
the training helped you. But you were the heroes, stood
up and fought against the odds and saved your own life.

(40:45):
And that if I have any small part in that,
and I'm very grateful for.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
That's that's that's great. I mean, that is great to
know the impact that you've had, George.

Speaker 1 (40:59):
For those who want to read some of your articles,
what's the best way to access them?

Speaker 5 (41:04):
I actually don't have anything online. We dumped our website.
I'm writing now. I'm getting published three to five times
a year through the NRA's Shooting Illustrated and if you
want to go online, some of my articles are online

(41:26):
generally under George T. Williams.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Right, and that's where I found the electronically. The article
from Shootings illustrateds out there, so and much much more
came up. Well, George, thank you so much for jumping
on with us and really on behalf of law enforcement
and civilians nationwide. Thanks for an entire career of teaching
everyone to protect themselves. The only regret I have is
that you weren't here locally and we couldn't have capitalized

(41:51):
on some of that training.

Speaker 5 (41:53):
Well, thank you very much, Sarah. Pleasure to be here.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
Yeah, great, mister George T. Williams.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Guys, if it's definitely worth a read to go out
there and see some of his work for us to
read that. Then you know, we go through articles and
articles and articles to see that and say, wait a second,
this one stood out. It was worthwhile And I wish
I wish I could sit through one of his classes
and stuff because think it would definitely be beneficial. So, ed

(42:21):
we are close to the end. Next week JC will
be back with us, so.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
You know what that means. Yeah, news, there is so much.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
News out there we have not gotten back last Seriously,
the last couple of weeks, there was so much news
out there we have not even gotten to it. And
just I think yesterday the Supreme Court said, and this
is huge news that they're going to hear a case
for a Waii gun band that they have in place.
I'm not sure that particulars of that, but it is

(42:51):
another potential big Supreme Court case that's going to be
coming down. I think it's going to be heard next year.
So I'm sure JC will have that. There's all kinds
of court cases around the country that are going on.
There's a banking update, all kinds of stuff you're not
gonna want to miss. Guys, Thanks for spending the last
hour with us. Great to see Edward back and if
you're going to the game tonight, please watch the officers

(43:12):
in the intersection. I say that as one of them,
and when it comes dark tonight, just make sure you
pay attention as you go through them to.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Get safely home.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
Guys, have a great week, we'll be back next week
and go Bucks and as always, let's be careful out there.