Colin’s top takes of the week!
First, he’s joined by John Middlekauff, host of “3 and Out” to detail why Shedeur Sanders' draft free fall was entirely self-inflicted (3:00), and why intelligence is the most important trait in an NFL prospect (15:45).
Then Colin’s joined by Jason Timpf, host of “Hoops Tonight” to break down all the NBA playoff action!
They debate whether the Rockets should target Giannis and what players they should be willing to part with in order to get him (26:00), and discuss why the Knicks have actually LOST ground to the Celtics (31:00).
They explain why Russell Westbrook has become the “tone setter” for the Denver Nuggets (36:15) and debate whether Luka Doncic can be a “championship player” despite his weakness on the defensive end of the floor (41:00).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume, blending Vice's signature dynamic storytelling with the high
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com to find your cable channel. All right, John, Obviously,
(00:47):
the story of the draft with Shnur Sanders had just dominated.
Milkiper lost his mind. So I want to I want
to throw, I want to start with this and you
know this so well. Basically I would have drafted Shadhor
Sanders if I was the Pittsburgh Steelers. So I don't
think they needed a defensive lineman as much as they
needed in a division. With Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson
(01:09):
in the Conference, with Josh Allen, Justin Herbert and Patrick
Mahomes and c J. Stroud, they don't have a quarterback
room of note. I think Will Howard's are backup in
the NFL, So congratulations on getting another defensive lineman. But
I would have drafted Shadhor Sanders. That said, once he
started falling in the draft, I started making calls. I
went on the internet and it was very interesting. So
(01:36):
two general managers who I hold in sort of my
like circle of trust and I think are really as
good as general managing gets in this league. Not Howie Roseman,
but there's another eight guys or so that I really like.
You know, a couple of them had said to my
friend Steve Kime Goud. Steve Kime had asked, because he
(02:00):
had Jalen Milroe as a client for Clutch Sports, and
he had asked a couple of Jim friends, Hey, about
a month ago, what do you make of Shador Sanders?
And both said, you know, his tape isn't great. Uh, Like,
you know, there's a lot of stuff you don't like
on his tape, and he's not a great athlete. But
(02:20):
that said, I still think he's accurate enough to be
a you know, in a bad quarterback draft class to
to not fall to where he fell. But I'm gonna
I'm gonna start with this, which I talked about on
my own YouTube. Uh you know pod this weekend is
that when a guy does fall and you're seeking answers
(02:43):
for it, you start going back and examining things, and
things also start to surface after the first round. Stories
start to surface that we're not talked about pre first round.
Clearly the interviews were worse then. It wasn't just a
(03:05):
story that bothered people. It was true and there were
more than one instance of a bad interview. But I
had said this too, is that once you didn't see
Shador Sanders as a starter because of the smoke and
noise around him with Dion basically his dad at Super
Bowl week saying we're going to control this. There are
(03:27):
certain teams were not going to play for Travis is
going to go one, my son's going to go three.
That I did wonder John like the t Boar Cam
Newton effect. If he's not the starter. Do you want
the Dion noise as a backup for a year? Do
you think that is what teams thought about once you
(03:49):
got to the second round? Is okay, now he's a
backup and I'm not sure teams love that t Bow
level noise celebrity quarterback backup stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, I mean obviously, like you, I did a lot
of dig in these last couple of days because I
liked him as a player, and I just assumed he'd
go somewhere between like ten and forty five. Yeah, somewhere,
maybe in the first round, maybe in the second round.
So when he precipitous fall of the fifth round, you
get to start texting around. And You've said this for
a long time. Quarterbacks are held to an unfair standard.
(04:21):
It's also why they make fifty million dollars a year,
you know. I mean, it's also why I would say
they are now viewed as the biggest celebrity in sports,
right up there with like, I mean, a level of
like Lebron and Steph Curry. Immediately, yes, So I would say,
from what I've heard, he had one of the worst
off seasons that these teams have ever seen from a
quarterback prospect. And that could be from a first rounder
(04:43):
to a seventh rounder, right right, Because they're all they
all act you are a product of your class.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
So if I'm a good looking girl and I walk
into a bar and there are ten supermodels, I'm not
going to be viewed as highly as if I walk
into a room with a bunch of ugly people, and
in this class, it was a bunch of high level cats.
Cam Ward, I know people with the Titans.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
They loved him.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Drew Brees said this a long time ago. Playing quarterback
is like seventy thirty intangible off the field upstairs thirty
my physical qualities. Peyton Manning couldn't beat me or you
in a race. He didn't have a big arm. Tom
Brady said he I couldn't play any other position in
high school football beside quarterback. So this class from Jalen Milroe,
people love the guy. Dylan Gabriel, he had to be
(05:27):
one of the favorites when it came to the coaching staffs.
Obviously the Will Howard's, the Riley Leonards. These guys are
the most impressive people.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Of the entire draft.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
When these coaches and these gms are meeting with them,
they leave the room and these coaches go, God, I wish,
I wish Riley Leonard, Will Howard were better players.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
They went.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
They get drafted in the fifth, sixth, seventh round. Most
people think, yeah, he's probably not gonna be in the
NFL long, but we love the guy. And shadors Off
the field. It's not bad, never been in trouble or anything.
But when you act, there are only so many teams
right supply demand thing. Well, six teams last year drafted
quarterbacks in the top six. They're immediately out. There are
(06:07):
several quarterbacks on rookie contracts. They're not going to be
in the mix. And then the veteran teams Andy Reid,
the Bills, the Ravens, they're just consumed. We're trying to
win the Super Bowl right now. So it's a small,
small group. Yeah, right, So the small group, well, those
were the people he met with and clearly turned them off.
And mcshay's been coming out with this report what happened
(06:27):
with the giants of like I don't need you. That
never happens, And I think it's become popular because if
you look at these comments online, it's like, go against
the establishment, go against the man. It's like, guys, this
is a business that if you're decent, you will make
forty million dollars a year. Find me another industry that
pays that level. And if you're like cam Ward, who
(06:47):
was viewed as a fifth round pick, comes back, does
all the right things, plays well, people love the guy
he's a first round pick, he's gonna get forty million
dollars guaranteed. So if he stinks, if he's Trey Lance
a good example, people love the guy couldn't play, but
he made forty million dollars. You know, So this to
carry yourself. Listen, we all look up to our parents,
(07:08):
right or whoever raises us. And he looks up to
his dad. His dad is one of the greatest players
of all time, right, and his dad can act however
he wants, just like great players can always act however
they want, because in a business like pro sports, they're
gonna there are only so many of them. His son
was not that, and I think that really turned people off.
The other thing that really bothers me is this narrative
(07:30):
of like this is the NFL pushing back against nil.
It's like, guys, Kim Ward just made like three million
dollars playing at Miami the NFL, every GM's a millionaire.
Every assistant coach now is probably a millionaire. And obviously
the head coaches are all making ten to fifty. They
don't care at all. Travis Hunter, I googled his NIL deal.
I mean it was reported between four and five million dollars.
It's not being a good person. I mean all these
(07:52):
kids in college, the entire first and second round, they
were driving rain drovers in g wagons last year in college.
It's not about the money or the nil was just
like one. There were a lot of red flags guys
that were drafted well above Shador Sanders. Those guys are
viewed as good players.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I think chadors a solid prospect. So but what I've
heard about the way he's acting like he would be
an immediate turn off to any human being right in
any industry. That's not how young people act. And I
think that they tried to change their tactics from what
I've heard the last months, but it was too late.
It's hard to pivot. And again, you're just compared, like
they view you in a group with Jalen Milroe and
(08:31):
Dylan Gabriel and so that's who you're compared to. You're
not compared to cam Ward. He has nothing in common
with you, but he already people like him.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
On and off the field.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So the group you're compared to, it's like, well, we
love the people, what's up with this guy? Anytime it's like,
what's up with this guy? And you play quarterback. Yeah,
that's a problem.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So I talked to an NFL general manager yesterday and
he said, he said, Colin, he said, the conversation we
talk about players in this league, the conversation with quarterbacks
is a separate conversation we talk about We talk about
quarterbacks like I would as a GM talk about coaching prospects.
(09:12):
I'm talking about your temperament, your leadership. One of this
gms said, when I hire coaches, very rarely will you
get Andy Reid or Kyle Shanahan's scheme excellence. You're hiring CEOs.
Mcvey's a CEO. Dan Campbell's not a scheme genius. He's
a CEO. And he said, that's what you're So he goes,
(09:35):
that's what a quarterback is. He's your CEO on the field.
So temperament, maturity, Do guys rally around him? So the interview,
how do you hire Sean mcvah Not let him out
of the building. It's not his resume, it's his interview.
And so I do think and this stuff. You know,
obviously Brian Dabole the Giants is going to say it. Oh,
(09:56):
the interview was great because Brian Dable has to go
back on that Colorado campus over the next four or
five years or next ten years. So you'll never hear
a coach bang on a university or a coach because
that coach is going to have four to five NFL
players the next year. So you just swallow it and go, yeah,
that was a great interview. But I think there's more
than enough smoke here that that that process wasn't great.
(10:19):
And I know, I'll say it again, I do not
like and again I did not think this would be
an issue, but I was forced to talk about it.
Once he's dropping out of the first, the second, the third,
the fourth, then I'm forced to talk about it. And
my take was, well, if you're really making me pick,
what's a problem. I do think Dion during Super Bowl
(10:40):
Week exclaiming this is on our terms. It wasn't until
mid to late March that Dion went Okay, he can
go anywhere. And I think it pissed people off. I
know I know one team that was totally turned off.
And remember, you go into a draft, John, as you
noted earlier, there's usually, like, for instance, to Rams, the
(11:01):
Rams decided before this draft they were going after a
quarterback next year that the Rams made a decision in house,
we probably need to get one in house, but we're
going to go for it next year. That's why they
made that trade with Atlanta to get two first next year,
because their first will be deep. So they're looking for
a top twelve to fifteen first and if they have
to use both to get like the second pick, because
(11:23):
you're going to have Drew Aller Clemson's quarterback arch Manning,
so if they want to get up to like third
or fourth in the draft, they need a second one.
So the Rams. There's about seven teams a year that
need a quarterback, either as a starter or a backup,
and the Rams immediately decided with their trade, we're getting
ours next year.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I think if you just looked at all the starters
in the league that teams are either obviously elated to
have or feel good about, I don't think you would
find one that isn't basically an A plus off the field.
And I think the one guy who's clear nearly mature.
I don't know if Kyler Murray would fall under a plus,
but he's clearly matured. I mean now living in Arizona,
(12:05):
seeing the comments from him and from a talent standpoint,
I mean, you're older than me. He's got to be
one of the most unique talents in the history of
pro sports. I mean, he's one of the great blue
chip physical attribute talents in any sport. Ever, we won't
see a guy again get drafted in the top ten
and number one over court. He's TIPE ninth. So it's like, yeah,
(12:26):
it was a learning curve in his maturity. He's matured.
Some guy's mature slower. We've seen Baker and some of
these guys, but for the most part, they are a
plus everything in terms of leadership, in tangibles, work ethic,
people just like being around. There's no question. It never
comes up. The last unit in the building I want
to think ever about is my overall quarterback unit, not
(12:47):
even just my starter, just the group. I know I'm
going to have a couple d line issues, maybe a
wide receiver, the quarterback issue. It's the last thing on
my mind beside like an injury or something that I
have to make like a tangible transaction for He basically
handed him like they started seeing what they see in
other positions and they're like, this is insane, and this
notion that like the collusion and stuff. It's just it
(13:09):
was honestly kind of embarrassing by a lot of people
around the NFL. I think, you know, former players and stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Bad luck by a lot of people that have no
fucking clue what they're talking about.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
So I asked Jimmy Johnson once in the green room
at Fox. I would get there early and it Pepperham
with questions, and Jimmy taught me more football than anybody
I've ever met. And I said, what's the most important thing?
The number one quality? And I was surprised by because
you know, those Miami programs were considered renegade. And he goes, oh, intelligence,
he goes, Colin, I think I'm a good coach. If
(13:43):
you don't take to my coaching, I'm just an average coach.
If you don't take to Andy Reid's coaching or Sean
mcvay's coaching, well then those are less successful coaches. You
have to get people that can you can insert stuff
and they can pick it up quickly. I can remember
(14:05):
when Randy Moss came to the Patriots. Dude, it was
one practice and they were like, yeah, he knows the offense.
It's like Randy just knew the game of football.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And it was funny.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I remember people asking. I mean, I can remember the interviews,
and it was just like, yeah, yeah, he just kind
of picked everything up. He didn't have to tell Randy
Moss anything twice, Like he just instinctually knew what to
do as a football player.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
You know, obviously this guy, you know, can be a
pain sometimes and you know, got some stuff going on
right now Tyreek Hill. But I remember talking to Andy
Reid years ago picking his brain on draft players or
you know, it was like a month before the draft,
and we started talking about stuff like this, and he says,
people don't understand how smart Tyreek Hill is in terms
of offense. I tell him one thing, He's picked it
up for the rest of the year. So it's like,
(14:50):
why did they have so much success? Obviously he's got
special physical skills. They could do everything with them. Why
do some guys that are these great talents, like, why
aren't they using them more? He doesn't know what he
he's doing. He's like a Randy Moss of Tyreek Hill.
You tell him one time in the middle of August,
I pull that out in November and a tie game
in the fourth quarter when it's freezing cold against the
Ravens Boom, He's like, yeah, coach, no problem, run it,
(15:11):
run it again. He comes to me with ideas, and
that separates these guys. Most of the best players you
look around at positions I'd even say historically are football geniuses,
from Ed Reid to Ronnie Lott, any position right. Look
look at Travis Kelsey, Him and Patrick Mahomes make up
routes on It's like, why can't anyone cover Travis because
they're not running place He runs whatever you go the
(15:32):
opposite way. And it's from a football intellect standpoint, And
he's a good example, and this is why the draft
is so hard. He was a major red flag coming
out of college. He's even talked about it, and he's
he matured as a human, but in terms of his
football IQ, like, you know, it's why some of these
guys are going to fail. They can play, it's because
they're not going to mature or they're not going to
(15:52):
be able to handle football. And some of these guys,
like the Ohio State crew of guys, I think it's
a bunch of on defense, bunch of higher care are tough,
physical guys, yeah, but I think a lot of people
viewing their their physical attributes aren't elite. You watch, I
bet the group the middle linebacker, the couple pass rushers
play in the league for like a decade, right, because
that's that stuff usually matten. Now, I don't know how
(16:13):
good of a players are going to be, but they're
going to be around for a while, guarantee it.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, I went. When I watched Cody Simon play for
Ohio State, it was amazing. He it was as if
he knew where it was going. You would watch teams
run motion and Cody Simon would just fill a gap,
move and the ball always came to him. That was
one of the players. He was one of my favorite
players in the draft. I think Ohio State has so
(16:39):
many good players. And to your point, these Ohio State guys.
Simon is such a character guy and Mecca at Buka
like a plus plus plus plus.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Kis JTT that crew.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah, just you know that's and so credit to Ohio
State and Ryan Day and because they've got they have
created a program with those guys come out and they're
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Speaker 1 (18:22):
So I think it's interesting. So Houston is a team
that I said this today on FS one is that
Oklahoma City is a similarly young team but better, and
they've got a ton of draft picks. You're not going
to leapfrog them. Whereas every one of their young players
to me, has sort of a defined role. Houston has
(18:45):
Jalen Green, who's athletic, but I still don't know what
his offensive game is in the half court. He's just athletic.
And so I do think Houston's going to have to
make take a swing. I think Kevin Durant fits well,
maybe they get into the I mean they may have
more than anybody for Giannis. We're talking about this. Jason
McIntyre and I were talking about this and I said
(19:05):
I would, I would. Houston has told people Amen Thompson
no chance, and it's funny watching him tonight with five
steals in the first half. When I watch M. N Thompson,
I absolutely know what he is. He's a physical, tough
defense often is the best part of his game, hustle.
(19:25):
He has a defined even though he's a kid, he
has a defined game, and that's one of the first
things I look for. Actually, if Zion could have stayed
in shape, I thought he had a very defined game,
Like I knew what he was. Jalen Green, I don't
know what he is, and I always feel like I
don't care if it's a talk show host or a
basketball player or a politician. If you don't, if you can't,
(19:48):
kind of what are you? And if I'm struggling with
that three years into your political career, it's like, I'm
not sure you are anything other than maybe smart or
aspirational or driven. So I think I look at it
and I think if they went into the Yannis sweepstakes,
you'd have to give up two really good players. Would
(20:11):
you give up sham Goon, Jalen Green and two firsts?
Because I think if I'm Milwaukee, I'm going to have
multiple suitors. I'm going to get a Malik an og
and four. You know, I don't think the Knicks. You know,
I gave up so many first for Michale Bridges. Let's
just talk Houston. What would Houston give up in your opinion?
(20:32):
You run the Rockets for Yannis.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Well, first of all, Colin at the rig, I'm going
to try not to be too insensitive here, but I'll
tell you what Jalen Green is. He's salary filler. That's
what he is. At this point in his career. He
has demonstrated through multiple years with Houston that there are
certain things that he just hasn't figured out and tries
to how to bring consistent winning impact every single game.
When he's got his pull up three point shot going
(20:56):
and he's making good decisions at the rim, he looks
like an all star caliber player that can lift that
team to greatness. But two out of three games he
struggles to accomplish those things, and then suddenly the inattentiveness
off ball, the poor decision making, all that just rises
to the surface. And so he needs to go somewhere
where he can go make mistakes for a while because
he just needs a lot of time, right and you know,
(21:17):
Amn Thompson, to me, should be untouchable. I would not
give up a mental honest, I think that unlike the
only reason I would ever consider giving up a player
of a men Thompson's caliber is if I was certain
that we would be a runaway favorite the next season,
you know, like like, for instance, if OKC wanted to
make a move for Yannis, they should be more willing
(21:38):
to part with someone like a Jalen Williams for instance,
when when you consider the fact that they would immediately
become a runaway championship favorite, right, But Houston with Jannis
is still like they'd be very good defensively, but it
wouldn't be perfect, right. A Men Thompson is the level
of prospect that I think has the potential to be
like the Scottie Pippen of this era, most the most
(22:00):
devastating perimeter athlete defensively that we have in the sport.
Intimidate but he has exactly but he has a lot
more offensive pop than people realize, and wait till he
starts to piece some of these parts of his game together.
He can handle the ball a little bit. He's got
a pretty decent set of moves in one on one situations.
Once he polishes up mainly the short range mid range
(22:23):
shot making and adds a little bit of muscle, he's
gonna be a guy that can easily average twenty points
a game in this league, very efficiently, potentially more.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
And he is really a physical I mean most young
players Jason are not that physical. He has a twenty
nine to thirty three year old physicality to him.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
When I watch him play, it's it's the type of
athlete that is most valuable in the modern MBA, which
is rangy but also strong because there's a lot of
rangy dudes that can get shoved around. But like there's
a when you can bring physicality and the ability to
cover ground. I mean, that's what made Draymond, you know,
the best defensive player of this era, as he could
cover ground, but he was also big and strong and
(23:02):
could win ground battles and there's there's a ton of
value there. So like if I was running the rockets,
I would literally I would negotiate earnestly, but I'd get
a deal done. And what I mean by that is
everything's on the table. But Aman Thompson, if you want
shanguon Jabari Smith Junior and Jalen Green will make it happen,
you know, like whatever it is you need to do
to make it happen. Because one of the things that
(23:22):
Houston has is depth. They just have a lot of
good players. They can afford to give up three rotational
players for Giannis and not be in a situation where
they don't have the requisite talent to compete next year.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I want to throw something at ja. This was my
take on the Knicks Pistons is a year ago, the
Pistons were in a rebuild and the Knick stop McHale
Bridges was going to get them right up next to Boston,
and yet five point separates he seems in five games.
And my take is they gave up a little too
much for mcale Bridges. Though I think everybody, myself included,
(23:54):
kind of liked the deal. But the problem was when
you're talking VSA v Nicks Celtics, is that Jalen Brunson
og and Michale Bridges and Cat we know what they are.
Tatum made a leap and Peyton Pritchard went from Nina
game to the best guy in the league off the bench,
and so two of the Celtics because Jalen Brown has
(24:17):
established what he is. Tatum is playing with a confidence
today that we thought he should have been playing with
four years ago. I don't think his skills necessarily that
much better, but go look at his first quarter scoring
against Orlando. He's a much more aggressive player. And by
the way Steph's been burned by this is that Steph
sometimes defers. Steph's smart collaborative, a great teammate. NBA fans,
(24:43):
and it's not a criticism, it's a reality. They reward
aggressive even if it's like over the top Westbrook aggressiveness,
like they just I mean, and Westbrook jumps off the
TV much. I mean, just you can't when he's on
the floor, you can't. Okay, Westbrook's right there, there could
be a seven footer. That's just I always said with
Andrew Wiggins, is he on the floor? Is he playing?
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Does he have?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I mean? So, my point being is is that the
problem that the Knicks face and I think they have
to swing big, is they thought McHale bridges really bridge
the gap. They were inches behind Boston, Tatum Pops, Pritchard pops,
and it's like, oh god, they did they lost ground? Actually,
so I look at the Knicks and think let's not
(25:25):
waste our time here. Cleveland and Boston both got significantly better.
New York is what. They just have good players. They've
got to take a big swing.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
I think I think people have missed the point on
Boston in a lot of ways, in the sense that
they look at them as a team that's led by
all these big wings that are super versatile, and I
think that was the direction that the Knicks were trying
to match. That's right, but it's much more of a
team wide concept of the ability to piece together these
lineups where everyone can guard. That's really the foundational concept
(26:01):
that makes the Celtics so unbeatable if you look at it.
Mikale bridges og Andnobi and Josh Hart in theory, are
these three rangy wings that can do a lot of
work defensively, but because they're bracketed by these two week points,
there's almost like a diminishing return and having that type
of defensive talent because of the way teams can still
(26:21):
get them in rotation, like it's still the Pistons in
the half court, Kate Cunningham bringing Jalen Brunson's man into
the action and getting great looks attacking even though he's
got ogn and Obi on him. Whereas if you're with
the Celtics and you run that exact same thing at
a Derek White good luck, you run that exact same
thing at a Drew Holliday good luck, and Peyton Pritchard
(26:41):
competes his ass off defensively. And so that really is
the foundational trait that everybody's missing. Is like you're seeing
this situation where the Knicks copied almost on the margins
in a way that has a diminishing return because of
their bill. They almost would have been better off looking
for like waiting, holding their firepower for a better player
(27:02):
than putting all their cards in the McHale Bridges type
of basket, because McHale Bridges would have been more valuable
if Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns were replaced by
more versatile, defensive minded stars, and they're just not. And
so I think the ultimately it doesn't matter how good
you're on ball defender is if I can put him
in an action that gets me an advantage.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, I kind of fell for it. I thought McHale
Bridges got him close. I didn't think he would be
better but I thought, oh, they'll compete. They could win
a game, maybe a second in a seven game series,
or you know, you know, and it's like, no, okay,
I have to mention this. As I've always said, in
our business, and you're in this business, is I'm not.
(27:44):
It's not flip flopping. If you give me new stuff,
I'll have a new opinion. I have never liked six
four and under players Derreck Rose, John Wall Westbrook that
can't aren't pure shooters, Nash Curry, the little guys don't
lead the titles anyway. Historically, Curry's an outliar. Isaiah Thomas, both,
(28:06):
by the way, really good perimeter shooters. Therefore, when you're
six four and under and can't, especially with no hand check,
you get to the rim and you get hit by
the redwoods and you just hit the floor too often.
Now Dwayne Wade had a little bit of this because
he was never a gifted outside shooter. But Dwayne was
built like a like a running back. I mean, he's
he looks like an NFL player. So I was always
(28:28):
like with Westbrook, I'm like, listen, man, this is just
it just doesn't work for me. But I said, I
watched him last night, and I thought he was last night.
The tone center of every great player in that game
is that Jamal Murray would have an amazing second half.
Jokic was off. I never trust Gordon or Porter offensively,
(28:50):
although I really love Gordon as a player. He is
so relentless that he almost makes team mates guilty if
they don't play with energy. Like I mean, you can
see why, like Harden and Westbrook, they're good buddies. They
go to Houston, they didn't get along, and I think
(29:11):
part of it was Westbrook is like, bro, I know
you were out last night, but you can't bring that
last game for the Clippers. I mean, Harden might as
well have been a hologram. I mean, he was invisible.
But I watched Westbrook and I think, all these years later,
what I appreciate about him is he plays so hard.
He almost forces you as a teammate to play harder
(29:34):
because you and I know this, some nights, this is
asking a lot eighty two games playoffs. I mean, Yokich
last night just doesn't have it. And I was like
kind of blown away by Westbrook last night and this
new found ability to hit a three, but it's his
energy was just ridiculous last night in the first half.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, it's infectious.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
It. I'm so glad you said it like that because
I've always felt that way in team basketball, Like when
there is somebody on your team that is busting his
ass on defense, you look like an idiot if you're
out there next to him not doing the same thing.
It screams on film, and like, trust me, like these
film sessions, like I remember when I was in college,
(30:16):
Like it's embarrassing when you're sitting in the room and
you're not doing your job, like and the coaches pausing
the screen and like you're jogging back in transition defense
and he's standing up there pointing at you in front
of your teammates.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Like it.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Laziness stands out on the TV, it stands out in film.
It especially stands out juxtaposed with an energy bunny and
like that there's a ton of.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Value there, you know.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
I've like really grown to appreciate Russell Westbrook in this
phase of his career in a way that I didn't
in the past. Yep, a couple different things. He is
a guy that his motor and physicality actually translates in
the postseason really well because he's a very physical player.
So like and we've seen so many examples of this
(30:58):
in NBA history, the big, strong athlete who plays hard
just has a lot of utility when it's a rock fight,
when it's like super super physical. During the regular season
with the Lakers, there was just so much time where
he was asked to do more than he was capable of.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
But as this has shifted towards.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
Him being in a smaller role, he's polished up his
jump shooting, like you mentioned earlier, like he put in
work behind the scenes. He understood, oh, if I'm going
to stay in this league, I'm going to need to
be able to hit a corner three. And so he's
put in a lot of work behind the scenes. The
second piece of it finding a fit that works. So,
for instance, Jokics, we've talked about this on the show before,
inverts your spacing. He brings the center away from the basket.
(31:39):
That makes it so there's fewer redwoods around the basket.
And so Russ is Russ had a layup missing problem
over the years, and he's missing fewer layups in Denver
because he's getting easier cuts right around the rim. And
so when you combine the little bit of corner three
point shooting, the ability to finish because of the lack
of congestion under the rim with the Yolkic team, and
(32:00):
then you add to it just the way his physicality
translates to the playoffs. He's become a very useful player
for the Nuggets now, like a flat out important player. Yes,
championship goals.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
No question.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
And I know this isn't the be all end all,
but there is something about when you turn a television
on and you come into the second quarter, the players
that add something you can usually spot in like two possessions,
Like you're like, oh, you like amen. Thompson's a great example.
(32:33):
You're like, shit, man, that dude is physical. He's an
intimidating presence. Obviously, great scores almost all have that. Russell
Westbrook jumps to the TV screen. He is just straight
gin on the rocks. It's like pow, it hits you.
It's who's this guy? Like cutting? And Jimmy Butler's got
(32:53):
that too when he's really into it. So it's like, dude,
who is like he? When you're a pro athlete and
can kind of intimidate other pro athletes and a man's
got it, Butler's got it, Russell's got it. No, And
you know, it's funny watching Westbrook. I'm thinking, could he
have always shot threes like this? He's now shooting him
because he's probably a little less, you know. I mean,
(33:15):
everybody comes down a little bit athletically, and he was
so hyper athletic.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
But it is.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Amazing to me to watch him shoot threes. I don't
know if his the shooting style has changed, but last
night I'm like, it looked smooth, it looked confident and comfortable.
The Mavericks shouldn't have traded Luca. But and Zack Lowe
was talking about this with on the Ringer is that
(33:43):
I would never trade Mahomes, Alan Lamar Jackson, but I
would now take a call on Joe Burrow because of
two major injuries. I would take a call. I'm not
looking to trade him. I would take a call on
Jalen Hurts, who I still think small and okay in
the pocket. But there are players, you know, like Lebron
in his prime got you guaranteed finals. MJ got you
(34:06):
guaranteed titles. Kareem got you titles in Lucas prime, he
guarantees you buckets and those are great, but there is
a difference between the lebron and his prime and I
think now he'll be in better shape next year. The
Lakers won the trade. I'm not in any way insinuating
(34:27):
they didn't crush it, but I think this little peak
at Luca, Let's face it, when he's on your team,
you just watch him more. Even if you love the NBA,
you watch it more. Can you look at him now?
And you watch as much NBA as anybody, But is
there a part of you, even ten percent that goes
(34:48):
I get Houston, I get Dallas and Nico taking the call.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
So just because there is a reason to do something
doesn't mean it's reason enough. And like I see the
reason like they call it, I'm I'm I don't. I
don't want to be overly critical of Luca here, because
it is tough to come into a team right in
the middle of the season and to do all of
the things that he's being asked to do. But let
me just pose it, like, let me just present it
(35:15):
like this. If Luca outplays ant, do the Lakers win
the series? Let me let me give you one more.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Literally, the last game and it was like six of
seven against him. So I think that is they don't
put Luca on ant a Ton because for obvious reasons.
So I'm not sure what the answer is to that.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
So in the fourth quarter in this series, which is
where the games have been decided.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yes, the guy way, because Minnesota was in these close
games all year long. They did I mean, so it's
like that is who they They're not pretty enough offensively
to blow good teams out there in all all their
games look like this.
Speaker 5 (35:57):
Luca has five made field and one assist in the
fourth quarter in the series, and has ten made field
goals and seven assists in the fourth quarter in the series.
He has dramatically outpaced Luca's output when the games have
been on the line late. Luca is shooting five to
seventeen in the fourth quarter in the series, and he
looks blatantly exhausted every single time down the stretch of
(36:22):
these games. There's been so much focus on the fact
that he had to play twenty four straight minutes. You
know who else played twenty four straight minutest in that game,
Anthony Edwards. He looked fantastic. Julius Randall played twenty three
and a half of the twenty four available minutes. He
looked fantastic. He's guarding Lebron, grabbing rebounds, doing all that
kind of stuff. Lebron, who's forty years old, had three
(36:42):
of the most absurd defensive plays I've seen. Like Lebron
almost single handedly stole that game with defense. Yeah, stretched de.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Vincenzo block and then Fitty Smith shot in the only
over end.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
And then he stripped Nasried on the very next possession,
got another stop, and then he did strip Anthony Edwards
on what was kind of an iffy call. It was
kind of already slipping when he was like, but it
was good defense on that play. The point being like,
there were four stars in that game that all played
basically the entire second half. Three of them looked like
they were spry. For the record, they're all better athletes.
I'm not expecting Luca to be out there flying around
(37:13):
like a six to eight freak athlete in those situations,
but I would expect him to look like Luca.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I would expect him to look like Luca.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
And the bottom line is is every single time a
game has been hanging in the balance in this series late,
Ant has looked like Ant and Luca hasn't and the
Wolves have immediately taken control and won the series. So
I don't think it's negotiable at all at this point
whether or not Luca's conditioning is standing in the way
of whether or not they could have won the series.
The Lakers controlled the first three quarters. They are capable,
(37:46):
They are capable of beating this team in the biggest Like,
for instance, I saw some criticism of Lebron for having
zero points for the record. Lebron does deserve some criticism.
He had a bad turnover late. I didn't like the
three he took off the left wing. Zero points like
five a way to score something. But he only took
two shots in that fourth quarter. You know why, because
this team has a construct. The construct is we need
(38:07):
Luca to create offense for us. That's his one job.
This is one job everyone else, like Lebron's job on
this team is to be Draymond Green on the other
end of the floor, you know. And like, yes, Lebron
could have and should have done more. But I left
that game very disappointed because I felt like Luca, when
the series was hanging in the balance, didn't even look
(38:29):
remotely like himself. If he makes that layup against nas Reed,
which by the way, is just maybe a little bit
more conditioned athlete than he is right now. It doesn't
even have to be in peak condition, just in good
enough shape to get the lift to get that ball
up off the backboard.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
They win. They did, don't win the series. They win
the game.
Speaker 5 (38:47):
It's two two, but instead he smoked it and then
didn't get back and transition defense and left nas Red open.
He hit a three, and all of a suddenly seven
point game was a two point game, right right, so
like so, like I I am a huge believer in Luca.
I genuinely think he could be the best player in
the league. There's a version of this if he gets
in shape where he is the best combination of scoring
and playmaking talent in the NBA after Jokic age is out,
(39:09):
and if he is and he also gets in good
shape and becomes just an above average defensive player, that's
the best basketball player in the world. It's an achievable
outcome for him. He just has to put in the
work behind the scenes. And by the way, it's not
too late. Maybe he can flip the script. But the
Lakers are not winning tonight and Friday and Sunday unless
Luka Doncic outplays Anthony Edwards and he he has to
(39:30):
win that matchup.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah. No, I think that's really well put. Is that
any Listen, It's just years ago, I said, and I
got so much pushback. I said, he's a better version
of Carmelo. He's a better version, There's no question. But
Carmelo is one of the great I mean, one of
the great offensive talents we've seen in fifteen years. Like
(39:53):
he was an absolute bucket against every defender in the league.
And the truth is SOA's Luca. But I say this,
most great players, at least for about a seven year
window in their prime, were great defenders. Now you can
be Bird and Staff where you're trying really hard but
(40:13):
you're limited. That's also okay in the locker room. But
mailing it in sends a message, Harden, Luca Mellow. It
sends a message like you guys, take it from here.
And you know, a lot of times in the NBA
you don't face a profound offensive player on the other end.
But when you and Aunt are matching up and aunts
(40:35):
this ascending, dynamic player that you can't take your eyes off,
you notice, like Luca's defense is noticeably awful, and I
think it was well said by you.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
The volume
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(00:23):
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com to find your cable channel. All right, John, Obviously,
(00:47):
the story of the draft with Shnur Sanders had just dominated.
Milkiper lost his mind. So I want to I want
to throw, I want to start with this and you
know this so well. Basically I would have drafted Shadhor
Sanders if I was the Pittsburgh Steelers. So I don't
think they needed a defensive lineman as much as they
needed in a division. With Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson
(01:09):
in the Conference, with Josh Allen, Justin Herbert and Patrick
Mahomes and c J. Stroud, they don't have a quarterback
room of note. I think Will Howard's are backup in
the NFL, So congratulations on getting another defensive lineman. But
I would have drafted Shadhor Sanders. That said, once he
started falling in the draft, I started making calls. I
went on the internet and it was very interesting. So
(01:36):
two general managers who I hold in sort of my
like circle of trust and I think are really as
good as general managing gets in this league. Not Howie Roseman,
but there's another eight guys or so that I really like.
You know, a couple of them had said to my
friend Steve Kime Goud. Steve Kime had asked, because he
(02:00):
had Jalen Milroe as a client for Clutch Sports, and
he had asked a couple of Jim friends, Hey, about
a month ago, what do you make of Shador Sanders?
And both said, you know, his tape isn't great. Uh, Like,
you know, there's a lot of stuff you don't like
on his tape, and he's not a great athlete. But
(02:20):
that said, I still think he's accurate enough to be
a you know, in a bad quarterback draft class to
to not fall to where he fell. But I'm gonna
I'm gonna start with this, which I talked about on
my own YouTube. Uh you know pod this weekend is
that when a guy does fall and you're seeking answers
(02:43):
for it, you start going back and examining things, and
things also start to surface after the first round. Stories
start to surface that we're not talked about pre first round.
Clearly the interviews were worse then. It wasn't just a
(03:05):
story that bothered people. It was true and there were
more than one instance of a bad interview. But I
had said this too, is that once you didn't see
Shador Sanders as a starter because of the smoke and
noise around him with Dion basically his dad at Super
Bowl week saying we're going to control this. There are
(03:27):
certain teams were not going to play for Travis is
going to go one, my son's going to go three.
That I did wonder John like the t Boar Cam
Newton effect. If he's not the starter. Do you want
the Dion noise as a backup for a year? Do
you think that is what teams thought about once you
(03:49):
got to the second round? Is okay, now he's a
backup and I'm not sure teams love that t Bow
level noise celebrity quarterback backup stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, I mean obviously, like you, I did a lot
of dig in these last couple of days because I
liked him as a player, and I just assumed he'd
go somewhere between like ten and forty five. Yeah, somewhere,
maybe in the first round, maybe in the second round.
So when he precipitous fall of the fifth round, you
get to start texting around. And You've said this for
a long time. Quarterbacks are held to an unfair standard.
(04:21):
It's also why they make fifty million dollars a year,
you know. I mean, it's also why I would say
they are now viewed as the biggest celebrity in sports,
right up there with like, I mean, a level of
like Lebron and Steph Curry. Immediately, yes, So I would say,
from what I've heard, he had one of the worst
off seasons that these teams have ever seen from a
quarterback prospect. And that could be from a first rounder
(04:43):
to a seventh rounder, right right, Because they're all they
all act you are a product of your class.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
So if I'm a good looking girl and I walk
into a bar and there are ten supermodels, I'm not
going to be viewed as highly as if I walk
into a room with a bunch of ugly people, and
in this class, it was a bunch of high level cats.
Cam Ward, I know people with the Titans.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
They loved him.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Drew Brees said this a long time ago. Playing quarterback
is like seventy thirty intangible off the field upstairs thirty
my physical qualities. Peyton Manning couldn't beat me or you
in a race. He didn't have a big arm. Tom
Brady said he I couldn't play any other position in
high school football beside quarterback. So this class from Jalen Milroe,
people love the guy. Dylan Gabriel, he had to be
(05:27):
one of the favorites when it came to the coaching staffs.
Obviously the Will Howard's, the Riley Leonards. These guys are
the most impressive people.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Of the entire draft.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
When these coaches and these gms are meeting with them,
they leave the room and these coaches go, God, I wish,
I wish Riley Leonard, Will Howard were better players.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
They went.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
They get drafted in the fifth, sixth, seventh round. Most
people think, yeah, he's probably not gonna be in the
NFL long, but we love the guy. And shadors Off
the field. It's not bad, never been in trouble or anything.
But when you act, there are only so many teams
right supply demand thing. Well, six teams last year drafted
quarterbacks in the top six. They're immediately out. There are
(06:07):
several quarterbacks on rookie contracts. They're not going to be
in the mix. And then the veteran teams Andy Reid,
the Bills, the Ravens, they're just consumed. We're trying to
win the Super Bowl right now. So it's a small,
small group. Yeah, right, So the small group, well, those
were the people he met with and clearly turned them off.
And mcshay's been coming out with this report what happened
(06:27):
with the giants of like I don't need you. That
never happens, And I think it's become popular because if
you look at these comments online, it's like, go against
the establishment, go against the man. It's like, guys, this
is a business that if you're decent, you will make
forty million dollars a year. Find me another industry that
pays that level. And if you're like cam Ward, who
(06:47):
was viewed as a fifth round pick, comes back, does
all the right things, plays well, people love the guy
he's a first round pick, he's gonna get forty million
dollars guaranteed. So if he stinks, if he's Trey Lance
a good example, people love the guy couldn't play, but
he made forty million dollars. You know, So this to
carry yourself. Listen, we all look up to our parents,
(07:08):
right or whoever raises us. And he looks up to
his dad. His dad is one of the greatest players
of all time, right, and his dad can act however
he wants, just like great players can always act however
they want, because in a business like pro sports, they're
gonna there are only so many of them. His son
was not that, and I think that really turned people off.
The other thing that really bothers me is this narrative
(07:30):
of like this is the NFL pushing back against nil.
It's like, guys, Kim Ward just made like three million
dollars playing at Miami the NFL, every GM's a millionaire.
Every assistant coach now is probably a millionaire. And obviously
the head coaches are all making ten to fifty. They
don't care at all. Travis Hunter, I googled his NIL deal.
I mean it was reported between four and five million dollars.
It's not being a good person. I mean all these
(07:52):
kids in college, the entire first and second round, they
were driving rain drovers in g wagons last year in college.
It's not about the money or the nil was just
like one. There were a lot of red flags guys
that were drafted well above Shador Sanders. Those guys are
viewed as good players.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I think chadors a solid prospect. So but what I've
heard about the way he's acting like he would be
an immediate turn off to any human being right in
any industry. That's not how young people act. And I
think that they tried to change their tactics from what
I've heard the last months, but it was too late.
It's hard to pivot. And again, you're just compared, like
they view you in a group with Jalen Milroe and
(08:31):
Dylan Gabriel and so that's who you're compared to. You're
not compared to cam Ward. He has nothing in common
with you, but he already people like him.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
On and off the field.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So the group you're compared to, it's like, well, we
love the people, what's up with this guy? Anytime it's like,
what's up with this guy? And you play quarterback. Yeah,
that's a problem.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So I talked to an NFL general manager yesterday and
he said, he said, Colin, he said, the conversation we
talk about players in this league, the conversation with quarterbacks
is a separate conversation we talk about We talk about
quarterbacks like I would as a GM talk about coaching prospects.
(09:12):
I'm talking about your temperament, your leadership. One of this
gms said, when I hire coaches, very rarely will you
get Andy Reid or Kyle Shanahan's scheme excellence. You're hiring CEOs.
Mcvey's a CEO. Dan Campbell's not a scheme genius. He's
a CEO. And he said, that's what you're So he goes,
(09:35):
that's what a quarterback is. He's your CEO on the field.
So temperament, maturity, Do guys rally around him? So the interview,
how do you hire Sean mcvah Not let him out
of the building. It's not his resume, it's his interview.
And so I do think and this stuff. You know,
obviously Brian Dabole the Giants is going to say it. Oh,
(09:56):
the interview was great because Brian Dable has to go
back on that Colorado campus over the next four or
five years or next ten years. So you'll never hear
a coach bang on a university or a coach because
that coach is going to have four to five NFL
players the next year. So you just swallow it and go, yeah,
that was a great interview. But I think there's more
than enough smoke here that that that process wasn't great.
(10:19):
And I know, I'll say it again, I do not
like and again I did not think this would be
an issue, but I was forced to talk about it.
Once he's dropping out of the first, the second, the third,
the fourth, then I'm forced to talk about it. And
my take was, well, if you're really making me pick,
what's a problem. I do think Dion during Super Bowl
(10:40):
Week exclaiming this is on our terms. It wasn't until
mid to late March that Dion went Okay, he can
go anywhere. And I think it pissed people off. I
know I know one team that was totally turned off.
And remember, you go into a draft, John, as you
noted earlier, there's usually, like, for instance, to Rams, the
(11:01):
Rams decided before this draft they were going after a
quarterback next year that the Rams made a decision in house,
we probably need to get one in house, but we're
going to go for it next year. That's why they
made that trade with Atlanta to get two first next year,
because their first will be deep. So they're looking for
a top twelve to fifteen first and if they have
to use both to get like the second pick, because
(11:23):
you're going to have Drew Aller Clemson's quarterback arch Manning,
so if they want to get up to like third
or fourth in the draft, they need a second one.
So the Rams. There's about seven teams a year that
need a quarterback, either as a starter or a backup,
and the Rams immediately decided with their trade, we're getting
ours next year.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I think if you just looked at all the starters
in the league that teams are either obviously elated to
have or feel good about, I don't think you would
find one that isn't basically an A plus off the field.
And I think the one guy who's clear nearly mature.
I don't know if Kyler Murray would fall under a plus,
but he's clearly matured. I mean now living in Arizona,
(12:05):
seeing the comments from him and from a talent standpoint,
I mean, you're older than me. He's got to be
one of the most unique talents in the history of
pro sports. I mean, he's one of the great blue
chip physical attribute talents in any sport. Ever, we won't
see a guy again get drafted in the top ten
and number one over court. He's TIPE ninth. So it's like, yeah,
(12:26):
it was a learning curve in his maturity. He's matured.
Some guy's mature slower. We've seen Baker and some of
these guys, but for the most part, they are a
plus everything in terms of leadership, in tangibles, work ethic,
people just like being around. There's no question. It never
comes up. The last unit in the building I want
to think ever about is my overall quarterback unit, not
(12:47):
even just my starter, just the group. I know I'm
going to have a couple d line issues, maybe a
wide receiver, the quarterback issue. It's the last thing on
my mind beside like an injury or something that I
have to make like a tangible transaction for He basically
handed him like they started seeing what they see in
other positions and they're like, this is insane, and this
notion that like the collusion and stuff. It's just it
(13:09):
was honestly kind of embarrassing by a lot of people
around the NFL. I think, you know, former players and stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Bad luck by a lot of people that have no
fucking clue what they're talking about.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
So I asked Jimmy Johnson once in the green room
at Fox. I would get there early and it Pepperham
with questions, and Jimmy taught me more football than anybody
I've ever met. And I said, what's the most important thing?
The number one quality? And I was surprised by because
you know, those Miami programs were considered renegade. And he goes, oh, intelligence,
he goes, Colin, I think I'm a good coach. If
(13:43):
you don't take to my coaching, I'm just an average coach.
If you don't take to Andy Reid's coaching or Sean
mcvay's coaching, well then those are less successful coaches. You
have to get people that can you can insert stuff
and they can pick it up quickly. I can remember
(14:05):
when Randy Moss came to the Patriots. Dude, it was
one practice and they were like, yeah, he knows the offense.
It's like Randy just knew the game of football.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And it was funny.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I remember people asking. I mean, I can remember the interviews,
and it was just like, yeah, yeah, he just kind
of picked everything up. He didn't have to tell Randy
Moss anything twice, Like he just instinctually knew what to
do as a football player.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
You know, obviously this guy, you know, can be a
pain sometimes and you know, got some stuff going on
right now Tyreek Hill. But I remember talking to Andy
Reid years ago picking his brain on draft players or
you know, it was like a month before the draft,
and we started talking about stuff like this, and he says,
people don't understand how smart Tyreek Hill is in terms
of offense. I tell him one thing, He's picked it
up for the rest of the year. So it's like,
(14:50):
why did they have so much success? Obviously he's got
special physical skills. They could do everything with them. Why
do some guys that are these great talents, like, why
aren't they using them more? He doesn't know what he
he's doing. He's like a Randy Moss of Tyreek Hill.
You tell him one time in the middle of August,
I pull that out in November and a tie game
in the fourth quarter when it's freezing cold against the
Ravens Boom, He's like, yeah, coach, no problem, run it,
(15:11):
run it again. He comes to me with ideas, and
that separates these guys. Most of the best players you
look around at positions I'd even say historically are football geniuses,
from Ed Reid to Ronnie Lott, any position right. Look
look at Travis Kelsey, Him and Patrick Mahomes make up
routes on It's like, why can't anyone cover Travis because
they're not running place He runs whatever you go the
(15:32):
opposite way. And it's from a football intellect standpoint, And
he's a good example, and this is why the draft
is so hard. He was a major red flag coming
out of college. He's even talked about it, and he's
he matured as a human, but in terms of his
football IQ, like, you know, it's why some of these
guys are going to fail. They can play, it's because
they're not going to mature or they're not going to
(15:52):
be able to handle football. And some of these guys,
like the Ohio State crew of guys, I think it's
a bunch of on defense, bunch of higher care are tough,
physical guys, yeah, but I think a lot of people
viewing their their physical attributes aren't elite. You watch, I
bet the group the middle linebacker, the couple pass rushers
play in the league for like a decade, right, because
that's that stuff usually matten. Now, I don't know how
(16:13):
good of a players are going to be, but they're
going to be around for a while, guarantee it.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, I went. When I watched Cody Simon play for
Ohio State, it was amazing. He it was as if
he knew where it was going. You would watch teams
run motion and Cody Simon would just fill a gap,
move and the ball always came to him. That was
one of the players. He was one of my favorite
players in the draft. I think Ohio State has so
(16:39):
many good players. And to your point, these Ohio State guys.
Simon is such a character guy and Mecca at Buka
like a plus plus plus plus.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Kis JTT that crew.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah, just you know that's and so credit to Ohio
State and Ryan Day and because they've got they have
created a program with those guys come out and they're
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Speaker 1 (18:22):
So I think it's interesting. So Houston is a team
that I said this today on FS one is that
Oklahoma City is a similarly young team but better, and
they've got a ton of draft picks. You're not going
to leapfrog them. Whereas every one of their young players
to me, has sort of a defined role. Houston has
(18:45):
Jalen Green, who's athletic, but I still don't know what
his offensive game is in the half court. He's just athletic.
And so I do think Houston's going to have to
make take a swing. I think Kevin Durant fits well,
maybe they get into the I mean they may have
more than anybody for Giannis. We're talking about this. Jason
McIntyre and I were talking about this and I said
(19:05):
I would, I would. Houston has told people Amen Thompson
no chance, and it's funny watching him tonight with five
steals in the first half. When I watch M. N Thompson,
I absolutely know what he is. He's a physical, tough
defense often is the best part of his game, hustle.
(19:25):
He has a defined even though he's a kid, he
has a defined game, and that's one of the first
things I look for. Actually, if Zion could have stayed
in shape, I thought he had a very defined game,
Like I knew what he was. Jalen Green, I don't
know what he is, and I always feel like I
don't care if it's a talk show host or a
basketball player or a politician. If you don't, if you can't,
(19:48):
kind of what are you? And if I'm struggling with
that three years into your political career, it's like, I'm
not sure you are anything other than maybe smart or
aspirational or driven. So I think I look at it
and I think if they went into the Yannis sweepstakes,
you'd have to give up two really good players. Would
(20:11):
you give up sham Goon, Jalen Green and two firsts?
Because I think if I'm Milwaukee, I'm going to have
multiple suitors. I'm going to get a Malik an og
and four. You know, I don't think the Knicks. You know,
I gave up so many first for Michale Bridges. Let's
just talk Houston. What would Houston give up in your opinion?
(20:32):
You run the Rockets for Yannis.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Well, first of all, Colin at the rig, I'm going
to try not to be too insensitive here, but I'll
tell you what Jalen Green is. He's salary filler. That's
what he is. At this point in his career. He
has demonstrated through multiple years with Houston that there are
certain things that he just hasn't figured out and tries
to how to bring consistent winning impact every single game.
When he's got his pull up three point shot going
(20:56):
and he's making good decisions at the rim, he looks
like an all star caliber player that can lift that
team to greatness. But two out of three games he
struggles to accomplish those things, and then suddenly the inattentiveness
off ball, the poor decision making, all that just rises
to the surface. And so he needs to go somewhere
where he can go make mistakes for a while because
he just needs a lot of time, right and you know,
(21:17):
Amn Thompson, to me, should be untouchable. I would not
give up a mental honest, I think that unlike the
only reason I would ever consider giving up a player
of a men Thompson's caliber is if I was certain
that we would be a runaway favorite the next season,
you know, like like, for instance, if OKC wanted to
make a move for Yannis, they should be more willing
(21:38):
to part with someone like a Jalen Williams for instance,
when when you consider the fact that they would immediately
become a runaway championship favorite, right, But Houston with Jannis
is still like they'd be very good defensively, but it
wouldn't be perfect, right. A Men Thompson is the level
of prospect that I think has the potential to be
like the Scottie Pippen of this era, most the most
(22:00):
devastating perimeter athlete defensively that we have in the sport.
Intimidate but he has exactly but he has a lot
more offensive pop than people realize, and wait till he
starts to piece some of these parts of his game together.
He can handle the ball a little bit. He's got
a pretty decent set of moves in one on one situations.
Once he polishes up mainly the short range mid range
(22:23):
shot making and adds a little bit of muscle, he's
gonna be a guy that can easily average twenty points
a game in this league, very efficiently, potentially more.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
And he is really a physical I mean most young
players Jason are not that physical. He has a twenty
nine to thirty three year old physicality to him.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
When I watch him play, it's it's the type of
athlete that is most valuable in the modern MBA, which
is rangy but also strong because there's a lot of
rangy dudes that can get shoved around. But like there's
a when you can bring physicality and the ability to
cover ground. I mean, that's what made Draymond, you know,
the best defensive player of this era, as he could
cover ground, but he was also big and strong and
(23:02):
could win ground battles and there's there's a ton of
value there. So like if I was running the rockets,
I would literally I would negotiate earnestly, but I'd get
a deal done. And what I mean by that is
everything's on the table. But Aman Thompson, if you want
shanguon Jabari Smith Junior and Jalen Green will make it happen,
you know, like whatever it is you need to do
to make it happen. Because one of the things that
(23:22):
Houston has is depth. They just have a lot of
good players. They can afford to give up three rotational
players for Giannis and not be in a situation where
they don't have the requisite talent to compete next year.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I want to throw something at ja. This was my
take on the Knicks Pistons is a year ago, the
Pistons were in a rebuild and the Knick stop McHale
Bridges was going to get them right up next to Boston,
and yet five point separates he seems in five games.
And my take is they gave up a little too
much for mcale Bridges. Though I think everybody, myself included,
(23:54):
kind of liked the deal. But the problem was when
you're talking VSA v Nicks Celtics, is that Jalen Brunson
og and Michale Bridges and Cat we know what they are.
Tatum made a leap and Peyton Pritchard went from Nina
game to the best guy in the league off the bench,
and so two of the Celtics because Jalen Brown has
(24:17):
established what he is. Tatum is playing with a confidence
today that we thought he should have been playing with
four years ago. I don't think his skills necessarily that
much better, but go look at his first quarter scoring
against Orlando. He's a much more aggressive player. And by
the way Steph's been burned by this is that Steph
sometimes defers. Steph's smart collaborative, a great teammate. NBA fans,
(24:43):
and it's not a criticism, it's a reality. They reward
aggressive even if it's like over the top Westbrook aggressiveness,
like they just I mean, and Westbrook jumps off the
TV much. I mean, just you can't when he's on
the floor, you can't. Okay, Westbrook's right there, there could
be a seven footer. That's just I always said with
Andrew Wiggins, is he on the floor? Is he playing?
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Does he have?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I mean? So, my point being is is that the
problem that the Knicks face and I think they have
to swing big, is they thought McHale bridges really bridge
the gap. They were inches behind Boston, Tatum Pops, Pritchard pops,
and it's like, oh god, they did they lost ground? Actually,
so I look at the Knicks and think let's not
(25:25):
waste our time here. Cleveland and Boston both got significantly better.
New York is what. They just have good players. They've
got to take a big swing.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
I think I think people have missed the point on
Boston in a lot of ways, in the sense that
they look at them as a team that's led by
all these big wings that are super versatile, and I
think that was the direction that the Knicks were trying
to match. That's right, but it's much more of a
team wide concept of the ability to piece together these
lineups where everyone can guard. That's really the foundational concept
(26:01):
that makes the Celtics so unbeatable if you look at it.
Mikale bridges og Andnobi and Josh Hart in theory, are
these three rangy wings that can do a lot of
work defensively, but because they're bracketed by these two week points,
there's almost like a diminishing return and having that type
of defensive talent because of the way teams can still
(26:21):
get them in rotation, like it's still the Pistons in
the half court, Kate Cunningham bringing Jalen Brunson's man into
the action and getting great looks attacking even though he's
got ogn and Obi on him. Whereas if you're with
the Celtics and you run that exact same thing at
a Derek White good luck, you run that exact same
thing at a Drew Holliday good luck, and Peyton Pritchard
(26:41):
competes his ass off defensively. And so that really is
the foundational trait that everybody's missing. Is like you're seeing
this situation where the Knicks copied almost on the margins
in a way that has a diminishing return because of
their bill. They almost would have been better off looking
for like waiting, holding their firepower for a better player
(27:02):
than putting all their cards in the McHale Bridges type
of basket, because McHale Bridges would have been more valuable
if Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns were replaced by
more versatile, defensive minded stars, and they're just not. And
so I think the ultimately it doesn't matter how good
you're on ball defender is if I can put him
in an action that gets me an advantage.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, I kind of fell for it. I thought McHale
Bridges got him close. I didn't think he would be
better but I thought, oh, they'll compete. They could win
a game, maybe a second in a seven game series,
or you know, you know, and it's like, no, okay,
I have to mention this. As I've always said, in
our business, and you're in this business, is I'm not.
(27:44):
It's not flip flopping. If you give me new stuff,
I'll have a new opinion. I have never liked six
four and under players Derreck Rose, John Wall Westbrook that
can't aren't pure shooters, Nash Curry, the little guys don't
lead the titles anyway. Historically, Curry's an outliar. Isaiah Thomas, both,
(28:06):
by the way, really good perimeter shooters. Therefore, when you're
six four and under and can't, especially with no hand check,
you get to the rim and you get hit by
the redwoods and you just hit the floor too often.
Now Dwayne Wade had a little bit of this because
he was never a gifted outside shooter. But Dwayne was
built like a like a running back. I mean, he's
he looks like an NFL player. So I was always
(28:28):
like with Westbrook, I'm like, listen, man, this is just
it just doesn't work for me. But I said, I
watched him last night, and I thought he was last night.
The tone center of every great player in that game
is that Jamal Murray would have an amazing second half.
Jokic was off. I never trust Gordon or Porter offensively,
(28:50):
although I really love Gordon as a player. He is
so relentless that he almost makes team mates guilty if
they don't play with energy. Like I mean, you can
see why, like Harden and Westbrook, they're good buddies. They
go to Houston, they didn't get along, and I think
(29:11):
part of it was Westbrook is like, bro, I know
you were out last night, but you can't bring that
last game for the Clippers. I mean, Harden might as
well have been a hologram. I mean, he was invisible.
But I watched Westbrook and I think, all these years later,
what I appreciate about him is he plays so hard.
He almost forces you as a teammate to play harder
(29:34):
because you and I know this, some nights, this is
asking a lot eighty two games playoffs. I mean, Yokich
last night just doesn't have it. And I was like
kind of blown away by Westbrook last night and this
new found ability to hit a three, but it's his
energy was just ridiculous last night in the first half.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, it's infectious.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
It. I'm so glad you said it like that because
I've always felt that way in team basketball, Like when
there is somebody on your team that is busting his
ass on defense, you look like an idiot if you're
out there next to him not doing the same thing.
It screams on film, and like, trust me, like these
film sessions, like I remember when I was in college,
(30:16):
Like it's embarrassing when you're sitting in the room and
you're not doing your job, like and the coaches pausing
the screen and like you're jogging back in transition defense
and he's standing up there pointing at you in front
of your teammates.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Like it.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Laziness stands out on the TV, it stands out in film.
It especially stands out juxtaposed with an energy bunny and
like that there's a ton of.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Value there, you know.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
I've like really grown to appreciate Russell Westbrook in this
phase of his career in a way that I didn't
in the past. Yep, a couple different things. He is
a guy that his motor and physicality actually translates in
the postseason really well because he's a very physical player.
So like and we've seen so many examples of this
(30:58):
in NBA history, the big, strong athlete who plays hard
just has a lot of utility when it's a rock fight,
when it's like super super physical. During the regular season
with the Lakers, there was just so much time where
he was asked to do more than he was capable of.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
But as this has shifted towards.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
Him being in a smaller role, he's polished up his
jump shooting, like you mentioned earlier, like he put in
work behind the scenes. He understood, oh, if I'm going
to stay in this league, I'm going to need to
be able to hit a corner three. And so he's
put in a lot of work behind the scenes. The
second piece of it finding a fit that works. So,
for instance, Jokics, we've talked about this on the show before,
inverts your spacing. He brings the center away from the basket.
(31:39):
That makes it so there's fewer redwoods around the basket.
And so Russ is Russ had a layup missing problem
over the years, and he's missing fewer layups in Denver
because he's getting easier cuts right around the rim. And
so when you combine the little bit of corner three
point shooting, the ability to finish because of the lack
of congestion under the rim with the Yolkic team, and
(32:00):
then you add to it just the way his physicality
translates to the playoffs. He's become a very useful player
for the Nuggets now, like a flat out important player. Yes,
championship goals.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
No question.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
And I know this isn't the be all end all,
but there is something about when you turn a television
on and you come into the second quarter, the players
that add something you can usually spot in like two possessions,
Like you're like, oh, you like amen. Thompson's a great example.
(32:33):
You're like, shit, man, that dude is physical. He's an
intimidating presence. Obviously, great scores almost all have that. Russell
Westbrook jumps to the TV screen. He is just straight
gin on the rocks. It's like pow, it hits you.
It's who's this guy? Like cutting? And Jimmy Butler's got
(32:53):
that too when he's really into it. So it's like, dude,
who is like he? When you're a pro athlete and
can kind of intimidate other pro athletes and a man's
got it, Butler's got it, Russell's got it. No, And
you know, it's funny watching Westbrook. I'm thinking, could he
have always shot threes like this? He's now shooting him
because he's probably a little less, you know. I mean,
(33:15):
everybody comes down a little bit athletically, and he was
so hyper athletic.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
But it is.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Amazing to me to watch him shoot threes. I don't
know if his the shooting style has changed, but last
night I'm like, it looked smooth, it looked confident and comfortable.
The Mavericks shouldn't have traded Luca. But and Zack Lowe
was talking about this with on the Ringer is that
(33:43):
I would never trade Mahomes, Alan Lamar Jackson, but I
would now take a call on Joe Burrow because of
two major injuries. I would take a call. I'm not
looking to trade him. I would take a call on
Jalen Hurts, who I still think small and okay in
the pocket. But there are players, you know, like Lebron
in his prime got you guaranteed finals. MJ got you
(34:06):
guaranteed titles. Kareem got you titles in Lucas prime, he
guarantees you buckets and those are great, but there is
a difference between the lebron and his prime and I
think now he'll be in better shape next year. The
Lakers won the trade. I'm not in any way insinuating
(34:27):
they didn't crush it, but I think this little peak
at Luca, Let's face it, when he's on your team,
you just watch him more. Even if you love the NBA,
you watch it more. Can you look at him now?
And you watch as much NBA as anybody, But is
there a part of you, even ten percent that goes
(34:48):
I get Houston, I get Dallas and Nico taking the call.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
So just because there is a reason to do something
doesn't mean it's reason enough. And like I see the
reason like they call it, I'm I'm I don't. I
don't want to be overly critical of Luca here, because
it is tough to come into a team right in
the middle of the season and to do all of
the things that he's being asked to do. But let
me just pose it, like, let me just present it
(35:15):
like this. If Luca outplays ant, do the Lakers win
the series? Let me let me give you one more.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Literally, the last game and it was like six of
seven against him. So I think that is they don't
put Luca on ant a Ton because for obvious reasons.
So I'm not sure what the answer is to that.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
So in the fourth quarter in this series, which is
where the games have been decided.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yes, the guy way, because Minnesota was in these close
games all year long. They did I mean, so it's
like that is who they They're not pretty enough offensively
to blow good teams out there in all all their
games look like this.
Speaker 5 (35:57):
Luca has five made field and one assist in the
fourth quarter in the series, and has ten made field
goals and seven assists in the fourth quarter in the series.
He has dramatically outpaced Luca's output when the games have
been on the line late. Luca is shooting five to
seventeen in the fourth quarter in the series, and he
looks blatantly exhausted every single time down the stretch of
(36:22):
these games. There's been so much focus on the fact
that he had to play twenty four straight minutes. You
know who else played twenty four straight minutest in that game,
Anthony Edwards. He looked fantastic. Julius Randall played twenty three
and a half of the twenty four available minutes. He
looked fantastic. He's guarding Lebron, grabbing rebounds, doing all that
kind of stuff. Lebron, who's forty years old, had three
(36:42):
of the most absurd defensive plays I've seen. Like Lebron
almost single handedly stole that game with defense. Yeah, stretched de.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Vincenzo block and then Fitty Smith shot in the only
over end.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
And then he stripped Nasried on the very next possession,
got another stop, and then he did strip Anthony Edwards
on what was kind of an iffy call. It was
kind of already slipping when he was like, but it
was good defense on that play. The point being like,
there were four stars in that game that all played
basically the entire second half. Three of them looked like
they were spry. For the record, they're all better athletes.
I'm not expecting Luca to be out there flying around
(37:13):
like a six to eight freak athlete in those situations,
but I would expect him to look like Luca.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I would expect him to look like Luca.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
And the bottom line is is every single time a
game has been hanging in the balance in this series late,
Ant has looked like Ant and Luca hasn't and the
Wolves have immediately taken control and won the series. So
I don't think it's negotiable at all at this point
whether or not Luca's conditioning is standing in the way
of whether or not they could have won the series.
The Lakers controlled the first three quarters. They are capable,
(37:46):
They are capable of beating this team in the biggest Like,
for instance, I saw some criticism of Lebron for having
zero points for the record. Lebron does deserve some criticism.
He had a bad turnover late. I didn't like the
three he took off the left wing. Zero points like
five a way to score something. But he only took
two shots in that fourth quarter. You know why, because
this team has a construct. The construct is we need
(38:07):
Luca to create offense for us. That's his one job.
This is one job everyone else, like Lebron's job on
this team is to be Draymond Green on the other
end of the floor, you know. And like, yes, Lebron
could have and should have done more. But I left
that game very disappointed because I felt like Luca, when
the series was hanging in the balance, didn't even look
(38:29):
remotely like himself. If he makes that layup against nas Reed,
which by the way, is just maybe a little bit
more conditioned athlete than he is right now. It doesn't
even have to be in peak condition, just in good
enough shape to get the lift to get that ball
up off the backboard.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
They win. They did, don't win the series. They win
the game.
Speaker 5 (38:47):
It's two two, but instead he smoked it and then
didn't get back and transition defense and left nas Red open.
He hit a three, and all of a suddenly seven
point game was a two point game, right right, so
like so, like I I am a huge believer in Luca.
I genuinely think he could be the best player in
the league. There's a version of this if he gets
in shape where he is the best combination of scoring
and playmaking talent in the NBA after Jokic age is out,
(39:09):
and if he is and he also gets in good
shape and becomes just an above average defensive player, that's
the best basketball player in the world. It's an achievable
outcome for him. He just has to put in the
work behind the scenes. And by the way, it's not
too late. Maybe he can flip the script. But the
Lakers are not winning tonight and Friday and Sunday unless
Luka Doncic outplays Anthony Edwards and he he has to
(39:30):
win that matchup.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah. No, I think that's really well put. Is that
any Listen, It's just years ago, I said, and I
got so much pushback. I said, he's a better version
of Carmelo. He's a better version, There's no question. But
Carmelo is one of the great I mean, one of
the great offensive talents we've seen in fifteen years. Like
(39:53):
he was an absolute bucket against every defender in the league.
And the truth is SOA's Luca. But I say this,
most great players, at least for about a seven year
window in their prime, were great defenders. Now you can
be Bird and Staff where you're trying really hard but
(40:13):
you're limited. That's also okay in the locker room. But
mailing it in sends a message, Harden, Luca Mellow. It
sends a message like you guys, take it from here.
And you know, a lot of times in the NBA
you don't face a profound offensive player on the other end.
But when you and Aunt are matching up and aunts
(40:35):
this ascending, dynamic player that you can't take your eyes off,
you notice, like Luca's defense is noticeably awful, and I
think it was well said by you.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
The volume
Host
Colin Cowherd
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