March 21, 2024 • 40 mins
Between her big hits, “Monster” and “Wonder Woman”, Patty Jenkins wrote an R-rated fairy tale, starring a dog. She hoped that the dog would deliver such a great performance that the Academy would — for the first time — give the Best Actor award to an animal. The story was about a dog program in a prison, a perfect set-up for a story of both canine and human redemption, right? Wrong. That’s the kind of story Hollywood loves, but not the kind of story Jenkins wanted to tell. Enter development hell.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. You called it a fairy tale? Yeah, do you have?
Is there a fairy tale that you were inspired by?
Which fairy tale is this?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I don't know if there's one. I think it's so
the opening, the opening of the movie is and this
will just tell you the tone. There's a voice over
throughout the movie, and the opening shot is you're pushing
in on this kennel in the middle of nowhere, and
it's out in the field, and it's like there once was,
you know, an animal named Bandit, and the Bandit used
(00:52):
to have had dreams of blah blah blah, blah blah.
And you're pushing in, pushing in, pushing in, until you
get to this pit bull sitting at the center, and
it's a thing of fighting pipules. And he named himself
Bandit because and you see a flash of a little
boy that the dog had seen from his kennel far
far away, playing with his puppy, named Bandit, and Bandit
had dreams of one day being that dog, and he
(01:13):
hoped that one day someone would give him a chance
and believe in him. And this dog trainer comes, the
fighting trainer and takes band It out, and he's like
come on, get out of here. And he's pushing, dragging
him along, and then he's like, but that's many, many
years ago, and Bandit suddenly turns around and just fucking
launches it as trainer and kills the dude. And at
this point in Bandit's life, all Bandit ever wanted was
(01:36):
just revenge, you know, like just bloody revenge for the
life that he's lived. I'm not remembering it verbat him.
It was a long time ago, but it's like and
all he wanted was just one shot, just to get
paidback and nothing more. And then you just push in
on him and he's just got blood down his neck.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Welcome to Development Hell, our mini series about the movies
that Hollywood never made. This episode is about a film
starring a dog, I Misunderstood Dog, that the filmmaker Patty
Jenkins wanted to make. You've heard of her, I'm sure
her debut feature was A Monster, an incredible portrait of
(02:19):
Eileen Warenose, a prostitute who killed seven of her clients.
Jenkins wrote and directed Monster Charlie's Throne, took the lead
role and went on to win the Best Actress Oscar
for it. Patty Jenkins next tour of force, directing the
twenty seventeen version of A Wonder Woman. The movie was
a hit with critics and made more than one hundred
(02:40):
million dollars in its opening weekend. But somewhere between those
two hits, Patty Jenkins had the idea of telling a
different kind of story.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So I became aware of these dog prison programs and
started to really research them and watch them and came
up with this story, which is kind of a fairy
tale that takes place in a dog program where the
lead characters are the dog. And my ambition was to
make a rated R dog movie where I wanted the
(03:18):
dog to give a performance so good they discussed whether
to give it an oscar. You know, that was my
whole goal, But there was a heavy there's a serious
tour de force role for a man.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So far in development. Hell, we've only told stories about
men and the movies they haven't made. This is our
first story involving a woman. It's not for lack of trying.
We made call after call. We recorded a truly fantastic
episode with a prominent female screenwriter, and then she asked
us not to run it. With good reason. Her movie
(03:52):
never got made because she ran into a male director
who didn't get the most beautiful and brilliant part of
her script, and she didn't want to out him, not
if she wanted to keep working as a screenwriter. And
she's right. Women in Hollywood play by a very different
set of rules than men. They don't have the same freedom,
and more specifically, they're not allowed to tell the same
(04:12):
kinds of stories, which was the brick wall that Patty
Jenkins ran into with her fairy tale about a misunderstood
pitbull named Bandit.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
This is a bad dog, right for sure. You end
up realizing as the story goes by, these trainers beat
the shit out of these dogs, they abuse them, and
so yeah, every once in a while they're going to
turn on and kill somebody. And that's life, you know.
I obviously, having made Monster, have sympathy for why people
do the things that they do and interest in why
they do the things that they do. But I think
(04:47):
that's also what the core of the story is. By
the end of the movie, you've seen that bann It
is this wonderful dog if someone had just given him
a chance to prove what he's capable of doing.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Patty, Patty hold on, yeahackup dog prisons. So tell me
the story, Tell me the story, and tell me what
a dog prison is.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So there are these programs throughout the country where they
put dogs, unadoptable dogs in with inmates and they have
those inmates rehabilitate the dogs. And what's an incredible thing
about it is that the closer you get to studying
why and what's happening in these prison programs, you realize
and this is very much what the movie was about,
(05:26):
that you're talking about a population of people that no
one gives a second chance to. And this will come
back around to because it's, ironically, I think, related to
why I could not get the movie made. Everybody wants
to believe that these are bad guys, they're only interested
in having them suffer and pay their dues. But the
truth is that the closer you get to prison, the
more you realize that prisons are mostly full of just
(05:49):
poor people. The prisons are full of guys who have changed,
never were that bad, have been in since Juvie, and
there's no way out. So the incredible thing about these
dog programs is that they you're looking at a population
of people that nobody is interested in anything other than
having them pay their dues and then in these animals
(06:10):
that don't see them that way and need them to
be their hero, and the men just come alive. So
you're using their time to do this incredible thing and
it ends up being an absolutely stunning program where the
inmates that end up being enrolled in this have their
(06:30):
acidivism rate drops to almost zero. And that's what the
movie was called. I Am Superman. The guy who gets
paired with this dog names him Superman.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah, yeah, So what is the what's the can you
can you be more specific about the emotional journey of
the actor in this.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
The emotional journey of the actor is is the last
vestige of hope that they can get out and that
they can have their life changed, and it's crushed when
the prison shuts down the dog program and sends the
dog away to be put down and all hell breaks loose.
The journey of the actor is very much the journey
(07:08):
that I've seen happen with any guys in prison, which
is like, oh, I got tricked into thinking that I
could get a ged and I could go and change
my life, But the truth is no, because even when
you get out, nobody's really going to hire you. They're
not going to give you a chance. They're not going
to ever believe that you're different. They're only going to
be interested in the tough guy that you were. And
so what are you gonna do. You're gonna become a
criminal again, because it's at least there's some integrity of
(07:29):
being a bad guy, you know, like there's no integrity
of being a loser. And so it's that's his journey,
and it ends up going differently than that in the end,
but only by a miracle. And so the movie was
a fairy tale about a single dog, and the dog's
opening scene of the movie, the dog kills its trainer.
It's like sitting on top of him with blood dripping
(07:51):
down its mouth. It's a fighting pit bull, and he
gets put in a shelter and is supposed to be
put down. But this dog gets accidentally put in the
program and the inmate that gets paired with him has
just been brought back into prison after being he had
just and he's been accused of another crime. But because
(08:13):
he had had, you know, had been a good history
when he was in prison before, they let him get
into this program. But he hates dogs, and so it's
the story of this this terrible pit bull supposedly and
this terrible man who are paired together, who actually hate
each other, who have to go through this program together.
(08:33):
And I can't tell you the whole story because I
still may make this movie and I don't want everybody
to know everything. But the truth is it doesn't go
the way you think. It's not a touchy feeling. I'm
not interested in just straightforward issue movies. So this is
this is very much a fairy tale, and the story
goes slightly differently than you think it would, but but
(08:55):
it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Can you give us one tiny little hint of a
little direction that it goes in.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, you would, one would assume, and will assume that
it is that the man and the dog change each other. Yeah,
they do start to change each other. But then the
entire program is sabotaged by the prison and by the
administration and by the corruption, which is exactly what really
is going on in these prison situations, and things turn
(09:23):
out very very differently, like a bunch of different people
go a different way.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Who do we root for more by the end, the
dog or both?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I mean, you really get to know them both and
you understand. You end up understanding how misunderstood they are
completely and how disinterested in anybody is in what's really
their story, except they figure out what's up with each other,
but nobody else cares or is open to it.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
This is this sort of on one level, is super bleak.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
It's not. It's magical, No, it is. It is. The
journey is bleak, and it seems like it's going to be,
but it ends up being magical, and I love the
ending and it's wonderful, but really it's it it. You'd
like to think that, you know, there are these great
programs and that they're changing people, and so of course
we're going to continue to do them, But not only
(10:18):
does that not happen, but then it goes a very
different way, and that goes to the point of why
I think no one ever made the movie, because the
movie is all about the main character is already changed.
He's already a changed guy, and so it really ends
up being about the corruption that surrounds these guys, where
(10:38):
even if you've changed and you've become a better person,
or you've never really done anything, there's no way out
because everybody's only interested in seeing you as the tattoos
that you have and the history.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
After the break, Patty and I talk more about dogs
and development. Hell, we're back with Patty Jenkins. Are you
a dog person?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
It's not a dog person, fanatical dog person. I love dogs.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
What kind of dog do you have?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I have a pit bull and I have a French bulldog. Yeah,
but I've had pit bulls my whole life.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Did you grow up with dogs as a kid sort of?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I mean I yes, I was always my mom didn't
want us to have a dog, but I was always
finding a way to get dogs, and so yeah, I
had different dogs. And also my grandparents lived in Mississippi
when I was young, and so I would spend every
summer down there with them in Mississippi, and there were
like twenty thirty pitples there. And this is kind of
before pitbulls had this bad reputation. And so I grew
(11:46):
up around pit bulls and I understand them and know
them and love them and think that they're so smart
and interesting. And so that's another thing.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
An incredibly steadfast dog.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Unbelievably, And by the way, it's not to say that
there aren't some people breeding hyper aggressive ones. I've always
I've never been the person who says, oh, they're just
like any other dog. Dangerous dogs, you need to know
what you're dealing with. If it does bite somebody, it
can do a lot of damage. They're not very likely
to bite somebody, and they are incredibly smart and independent
(12:20):
and emotional dogs, one of the most intelligent breeds.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, so how do you first of all, when you
conceive of a movie that hasn't both you know whose
principal characters are a person and an animal? What challenges
does the Does the dog present huge challenge?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I mean chalge? So this is part of what I
was so excited and interested about. My goal was to
get an honest performance out of a pitbull. They are
incredibly emotive dogs and so you can just read what's
going on on their face. So that got me really
interested in how do we do this, not just having
a trainer, you know, be over here. Really what it
(13:02):
was going to come down to was putting the actor
in the zelle with the dog and actually trying to
elicit that real perform it's out of the dog with
almost no crew around. I was always when we would
talk about budget, I was saying, I want to get
the tiniest crew, but I want to shoot a lot
of days, and so it was just going to be
slow to try to wait until you get that right
(13:25):
expression out of the dog and elicit that actual performance
from the dog.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
And so what are you looking for from the dog specifically?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
It depends, So it's a whole you know, it's a
whole story. So you would need the dog to dislike
the guy and be hostile. You'd need the dog to
become curious and interested but apprehensive, and then the dog
to you know, start to fall in love with the guy.
You need the dog to all kinds of things. He
has to have a moment where he flips out and
(13:55):
so so you would need everything. And that was going
to be kind of the sport of it.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
But the whole time that you're trying to elicit a
natural performance from the dog, the dog is aware that
there's someone with a camera.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Maybe maybe not. So if you hid enough cameras around
and laughs, you know, like the way that they do
like reality shows where their cameras mounted all over the
car and you know, or comedians in cars with coffee
or like whatever, you can hide different cameras. I would
shoot it differently than all of my other films, because
everything else I've done, I've done on film, and you know,
(14:28):
it's a very big, big production. This I would actually
be open to shooting digitally for this very reason, just
so that I could get cameras everywhere. The addition, the
other thing I wanted to do was I wanted to
shoot it in a real prison with inmates as part
part of the crew. There are a couple of prisons
that have like two different They have a very busy prison,
(14:49):
but they also have like a closed down section of
the prison nearby, And so I was working on that
idea as well. Where you know, just the same way
you would run a dog program, you run a very
you know the yard where the kind of vetted inmates are.
You have them come and be trained to work as
crew on the film. The problem is it, you know,
(15:11):
it becomes a little tough if there's lockdowns and things
like that, and that happens all the time. But this
was all gonna you know, I was going to try
to figure out how much of it I could do
that way.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And what about the actor.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
The actor would have to be on board in a
in a different it would be a ride. It would
be like a journey. You and that actor would be
on a ride trying to figure out how to do
this film together and try to figure out how. They'd
have to love dogs. They'd have to be interested in
the endeavor and it would be you know, interesting to
find out how it went. You'd have to be learning
(15:42):
the dog as you went.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
But it's not just have to love dogs. It's that
you're also acting. So in the first part of the relationship,
you have to act that you don't love dogs.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
M So again, that would go into camera work. When
I've worked with kids before, you sometimes have moments where
the actor is directing the kid off camera. I've had
one where this act, this adult actress was was Geene
Tripplehorn was acting out for the child what the child
should do. It was wonderful because we couldn't get the
(16:14):
kid to totally do it. So, you know, there are
many ways to get you know, you might be having
to do something strange to the dog to get the
dog to react strangely, you're not doing your part.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Oh I see. Yeah, So before we even get to
the studio, you've got to find an actor who's willing
to do something very unorthodox.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I wouldn't, which I don't think would be that hard actually,
because I think it's such a juicy like, it's such
a juicy performance for an actor. It's such a good role.
Had been talking to Ryan Gosling about it at the time,
and this is way back, this is two thousand and
six of two thousand and five, and then Ryan and
I were going to sort of do it alternately off
(16:59):
and on, but then he kept not being able to
do it or wanting to do it because he'd wanted
to go make money or various different things. When I
would try to go to other actors but Ryan Gosling,
I would get the same sort of thing from the guys.
They wanted to be tough and scary and stab somebody
in whatever, and and I thought that was such a
telling thing that that that was a story people struggled
(17:20):
to embrace, a non redemption story about prison. That was
the issue I had more of. Interestingly, when I tried
to make the film, even the most liberal people in
Hollywood and the most issue we companies that make these
films would always say, yeah, but can't he stab somebody
at the beginning and be about his redemption? And I
would say no, you're very much missing the point of
(17:43):
the movie. The point of the movie is that you're
romanticizing prison. If you think it's a bunch of super
dangerous people in there, it's not. I've walked around the
main line of Full sum you know, of some of
the most dangerous prisons in the country, and I'm not
fraid at all because ninety nine point nine percent of
the guys are just sad. It's just a sad sack situation.
(18:05):
It's very organized, it's just a warehouse for human beings
with no way out. And that's what I found so
fascinating about people not wanting to make it is that
no one's interested in the story about prison not being
just you know.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, so it's it's a what's fast saying about the
script is you begin I mean, the very thing that
makes it hard for the studio or an actor is
what makes it so intriguing for an audience, because you're
messing with our expectation about an animal movie. We've seen
animal movies and we know how they work. Right.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
That's why I think it's great is because the truth
is a lot of people also said to me, you
can't make a rat at oar dog movie. I was like,
but everybody said you couldn't make a dog movie at all,
and every time they make dog movies they're huge. We
love dogs, and so what are you taking. It's not
like only kids like dog movies. Adults like dog movies.
So yeah, you can definitely make a rat Atar dog movie.
So but it's just listen. I make myself feel better
(19:04):
by saying you can't. Both want to do things that
nobody's ever seen before, and then before frustrated that nobody
understands why it's going to work or why you believe
in it. But this plagues me in my whole career.
I've never done anything anybody thought I was going to succeed.
Everybody thinks everything I do is like a wonder woman
that's going to be terrible. Oh monster, that's going to
be terrible. Oh the killing is going to be a
(19:25):
bad TV whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
When you finished the screenplay and you said, what did
you say to yourself? Did you think this is a
slam dunk? Someone's going to help me make this?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
No, but I knew how how very happy I was
with it, and the people who read it had the
same reaction. You know, like people would say you know
that it was. I've had still people some people write
me and say it's still one of their favorite screenplays
they've ever read. But but I knew it was going
to be a little bit hard, but I didn't And
(19:59):
I still don't understand why no one would roll the
dice on my very low budget second film, other than
to speculate that the sexism that I was very very
disinterested in throughout my career, but see much more clearly
now wad into the fact that you know, if a
guy makes an Oscar winning first film, then then you
(20:22):
roll the dice on their second thing. Whereas throughout my
career people have not been interested in or not had
confidence in what I want to do. They've embraced me
and wanted to hire me for what they want to do.
But still to this day, like when I have my
what the stories I want to tell are, people are like, ah,
we've never seen that before, And I'm like, yeah, but
you've never seen monster before either, Like you want to
(20:44):
just give it a shot. So so, looking back, it
took me all the way until now to be like, wait,
how did nobody just say, yeah, we'll give her five
million dollars to make her second movie. Different thoughts of.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
This is super interesting and something I've been thinking about
a lot recently, which is that you're talking about sexism here.
Sexism discrimination of any kind takes all kinds of different forms. Yeah,
And in this case, what we're talking thing about is
someone is perfectly capable of saying, you made a brilliant movie.
So the sexism doesn't prevent them from seeing the genius
(21:18):
of Monster. It prevents them from seeing that you could
do it again. In other words, the way they make
sense a monster is, oh, it's a one off.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah. Yeah. And I also think it's that, of course,
it's not anybody's fault that the industry is based on
looking backwards. So if it's something this is what I
think is the real gender issue, and by the way,
not just gender issue. Diverse stories issue in Hollywood is
you can want to invite as many people behind camera
(21:48):
and into these positions as possible, but as long as
you're still basing what can and cannot succeed on the past,
you're basing it on a blueprint of a very specific voice.
And so I think that when I want to tell
a different maybe a guy wouldn't think of that story
that I'm coming up with and maybe the way the
emotions work are slightly different. Whatever, it is the combination
(22:11):
of the fact that they haven't seen it before, and
also they don't like to think of women as auteurs
or artists or take it as serious, Like there's a
there's a romantic desire to look at guys who do
like crazy art things and be like, oh my god,
they're a genius. Much less so with a woman, you know.
And so I think it's like the combination of those
things that make it tough.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So what exactly you said a little bit? But I'm curious,
So you take this script out? You want five million dollars, which,
just for those of you listening in Hollywood terms, not
a lot of money at all.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
No, I mean, everybody thought that Monster costs more than that,
like they they there was a there was a big
lawsuit about it, and one of the sides tried to
say that it costs eleven million dollars, So that's what
they thought Monster costs. It actually costs one point five
But it's very that was as little money as a
movie can be. Is five million? Really?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
And what do you so? What what exactly are you hearing?
You're hearing a people want they want. First of all,
they get that they want a different perspective on the prisoner.
You've said that they feel more comfortable where they have
a very clear redemptive narrative when it comes to the
to the past. But what else, keep going? What else?
(23:24):
What else is in their area?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
You know, I can only say that it was always
like no, It's like even these people saying like it's great,
we love the script, but it's not for us. There's
always a million different reasons. It's only as the years
have gone by, and my husband's always pointing it out too,
that we've had this so many things that I led
that or my idea like I wanted to do an
MMA show called the Fight about People in the MMA world. No, no,
(23:49):
we don't. It doesn't make sense. Then sure enough that
goes on and becomes huge. It's like I when I
go and pitch things that I want to do and
what my ideas are, so often it's been met with
with like no, but we'd love you to do this
hooker with a heart of gold script or this you
know other thing. And I'm so grateful to have been
(24:10):
embraced to do other people's things, but there is something
about it, and so yeah, it's always something different. I
don't think that they're ever even aware of it, but
I do think that there's something about confidence and excitement
in in in women's artistry that is slightly less, you know,
(24:34):
they're they're less confident in.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That's my well, that's my that's my point. There's a
a much more constricted view of of your talent. It's
like you're this desire to see to if you can
explain away a big success by saying it was like
a like a a, it was an anomaly.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
And by the way, it's always miss I feel it's
always misunderstood as well. I remember people saying to me
when I made Monster. The one studio executive actually said
to me she came into the editing and she actually
watched a part of it, and she goes, sweetheart, no
one wants to see a film like this. Oh, no,
(25:17):
one wants to see a movie like this. And she
wrote me an email saying like, oh, you're a great kid.
I know you're gonna make it one day. I'm just
really too bad.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
And this is before, of course the movie comes out
and ends up, you know, succeeding and making eighty something
million dollars by the way, and then I would hear
everybody saying like, oh, do you have any more female
serial killer things? And you're like, that's the take home lesson.
The take home lesson is that they want female serial killers.
And the same thing I felt with Wonder Woman. I
felt like Wonder Woman was there was just so much
(25:50):
emphasis on gender where it was like, Oh, everybody wants
to see a woman directing a woman's story. I'm like,
is that it It's not because of the movie. It's
not the hero's journey, it's not you know. It's like
and then there are a hundred women get women action
things made on the It's like it's always it's the
wrong lesson. But but I think in the there's so
(26:12):
much focus on the woman part of it versus being like, Oh,
it's a good film and it's an unorthodox film, but
they pulled it off. Instead, it's just like, oh, female
serial killers, that's it, That's what everybody wanted.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
At what point do you think it would change, Like,
give me a hypothetical, what would have to happen in
your career for people to say you want to do it.
Given your track record, let's go for it.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I mean, honestly, I don't know too many of the
women I know who have had major successes are also
we all behind closed doors whisper about how it sort
of doesn't. I think the world is really really long
way away from that. It's not going to happen in
my lifetime. I think it's you know, I may find
my own financing and have my own people and get
(26:56):
my own movies made. But I think that the world
is still genuinely run way behind closed doors by the
same people who have a desire for the interests that
they have, and no matter who they're putting on the
lower levels, the mandate is still bumping up to that level.
(27:17):
And the truth is like, we're real far from really
diverse voices being understood and embraced. And it's not about
money either. So that's the unfortunate thing.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I'll be right back with more from Patty Jenkins. While
(27:53):
Patty was telling me about her dog prison fairy tale,
I kept thinking about what the story shares with Monster,
how upbringing and events can conspire to wound people or
dogs and shape what we expect from them. Monster and
I am Superman both stories that ask us to look
for nuance in some very dark places. Jenkins, I was thinking,
(28:15):
seems compelled by these kinds of dark places, So I
asked her about it. Where where does this come from?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
In you? So it's funny because I think we both
have very backgrounds of a lot of exposure and travel,
and I think that that's I. You know, when I
was little, we moved to Vietna, to Thailand and during
the Vietnam War, and then we moved.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
To You're an Air Force brat.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Are Air Force brat? Yeah, And I think I grew
up consciously or unconsciously in the shadow of the Vietnam
War in Thailand, you know, with my father's people dying
right and left, and the plant, you know, everything that's
really going on. So I think I was I was
born into the around the darkness in a familiar way.
(29:07):
And then my own father passed away in a plane crash,
and you know, all these things, and I lived all
over the place. So then I've always never quite been
one type of person. I'm not like from somewhere and
like of a type, and so I've always been curious
in all types of people and what's going on with you,
and I'm not daunted by the darkness, and as a result,
(29:29):
I ended up making friends with all kinds of people
my whole life. Like I've been friends with definitely people
who have done some terrible things and ended up in prison.
And as much as I've been friends with, you know,
upper class socialites or whatever, I've known all kinds of people.
But I think that the people who end up living
(29:49):
some of the most dangerous lives have I have a
real soft spot for because I've watched them turn into
those people and seen how how misunderstood they are and
how easy it would be to happen to anybody should
they were. They the ones that went through that journey.
So it's just it's not my only as you can see,
(30:12):
like wonder Woman is also my interest, you know, like
I have Arrested development is also my interest. I have
lots and lots of interests. I think the reason I
like such diverse work myself is because because of what
I just said, I'm not one type of person. I've
had to learn how to live in different circumstances at
different times. But this issue, these issues definitely are near
(30:34):
and dear to my heart. And also I think the
most misunderstood because people have so little access to understanding
these stories.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
How old were you when your dad died?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Seven?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Oh? Wow? I always think about you know. In one
of my books, I had a whole section on what
the I think does all this work on what happens
to people when they lose a parent at a young age.
And it's this incredible study that was done in England
of extraordinarily high percentage of high achieving people lost a
(31:13):
parent in youth. And wow. The argument is that it
has one of two effects. You know, it's like, you know,
it's a Nietzschean thing. It either crushes you or it
makes you stronger. You've gone through just about the most
horrendous thing that can happen to a child, and if
you can emerge from the other side of that, you're
(31:36):
kind of toughened in some way. I'm just I'm just
using by how drawn you are to investigating this kind
of darkness and finding some some value in it. Mm hmm.
I think that that's or some understanding.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Well said, that's well said understanding. I think it was.
It's interesting to look back on this and how first
of all, it was the definitive event in my life
was my father dying. It was had a huge, huge
on everything after, particularly in my youth. I think it
was funny and watching Anatomy of a Fall this last year,
(32:16):
what I thought was so interesting that and illuminating to
me was how condescending everyone is to the child about
their understanding of what's going on. And that really rang
true to me, where I think that a lot of people,
even at our age, don't necessarily know how bad bad
can be, Like they just don't know they haven't been
(32:37):
close to it, to the worst possible thing that could
ever happen to you happening. And when it happens to
you as a child, you're obsessed with your parents at
seven years old, you are in love with them. And
my father was like such a heroic figure, like taking
off on his motorcycle every day and then flying off
in his F four. You know, it's like he was
like a superhero in my life. So to have that
(32:59):
happen and then tell me you'll never see him again,
like it was such exquisite revealing of how bad the
world can be. And now when I look back, I'm like, oh, yeah,
people are saying to you, like, oh, every cloud has
a silver lining and all these things, and you're like,
I want to die, Like you're done, it's your suicidal, really,
(33:19):
your your interest in this place is over. And I
only now realize that looking back, I'm like, oh, all
of these words, and how I was probably being viewed
as a seven year old is she'll forget him, she'll
get over him, she'll and you're like, dude, I can't.
I don't want to be here where that can happen
at any moment. I don't trust any of this now,
(33:42):
And so I think that it's it's a very interesting
thing that you do have to kind of toughen yourself
and learn how to exist in that world where you
know that that can. And I still really struggle with it.
I really struggle with it as it relates to my child,
where I'm like it with the knowing how bad bad
can be, like knowing that we all feel like it's
(34:05):
not going to be us and it can't really happen,
but it really could, you know, and it happen at
any moment, and there's nothing you can do about it,
you know. Interestingly, I don't think I would be the
director I am if my father hadn't died and then
I think monster I made literally directly about the death
of my father. It was about like, oh, okay, cool,
everything works out, everything happens, Like the voiceover in that
movie is saying, everything, you know, it's all these myths
(34:27):
that she's heard throughout her youth. If you just you know,
if you just love and believe in yourself, anything can happen. Nope,
not for Eileen Warnis, you know. So that it was
a direct a chance for me to express how dark
the world can be that people might not realize. And
I think the driven part, what's interesting, don't I'd have
(34:48):
to think about what I think it is that makes
you driven. For me, I was. I was passionate to
take control of the narrative. And my original reason for
wanting to be a filmmaker was that I thought that
the stories were always going to be terrible in real life.
So I was like, so, I want to tell my story.
I want to be the one who controls the story,
so at least I can live a good outcome there,
(35:08):
you know. And I turned out to be pleasantly wrong that,
you know. I've lived a wonderful knock on wood life
in so many ways. But yeah, I think it was
like it made me very, very driven.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
So now you're now you want to take uh this
story back out and try and maybe.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
I haven't decided. I haven't decided.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Tell me how you would knowing what you know. By
the way, what you just said is incredibly Uh, it's
sort of it's it. It's it's moved. I mean, it's
really moved. I mean it's incredibly kind of moving. And
(35:52):
and honest, you why you do what you do. What's
what's interesting is that what is for most of us.
You know, I've had a when I was growing up
as a kid, I you know, thought all the time
about what it would mean if I lost one of
my parents. But it was an abstract thought. For you,
(36:16):
it's real. That's the difference. So I can't As a kid,
when I thought about that, it wasn't something I could
put into words. It wasn't something I could make real
to anyone else. It was just a kind of It's
the kind of weird kind of fantasy you have, dark
fantasy you have at three in the morning, you're like,
oh my god, what would happen if but you actually,
(36:36):
by virtue of gone going through it, you knew what it.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Felt like mm hmm, but yeah, because after my father died,
then my sister had a like the most beautiful friend,
runaway boy who came and lived with us, and I
was like so in love with him. He was like
three years older than us, Paul Penzini. He was like
beautiful and you know, and he'd run away and was
living in our house. And then he had to go
(37:02):
visit a cousin and he got shot in the head
and killed. And so I was between those two things.
I was like, this place sucks, I you know. Was
it made me very romantic though, like you interestingly that
kind of tragedy I think, particularly for the opposite sex
parent and then the opposite sex older brother figure. It
(37:22):
made me so romantic about everything, but about like love
and longing and loss. I think it's like I take
for granted my familiarity with the darkness, but of course
the romance of the stories I want to tell are
very much born from that, And so I think I
(37:45):
sort of thought I was this much darker, rebellious, the
type of person that makes monster in my youth, and
now I realize I'm not that person. I'm also the
person that makes wonder woman I'm all kinds of you know,
like I've grown up. I'm not just that person. But
so I think that makes me look back and say, yeah,
why do I have that much darkness? Oh that's interesting,
(38:05):
let's look back. You you really don't you just you
just go forward for a long long time before you say, like,
how do I explain to people that I made Monster
and I made wonder Woman?
Speaker 1 (38:14):
You know? So, if you were to take this movie
back out, knowing what you know both about your the
first round of attempts with it and about yourself, how
would you pitch it differently?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I don't think I would pitch it. First of all,
I don't think I would. I think I would try
to stack it up with my own financing and control
because I think I made I've made my peace with
the fact that it might not be the easiest thing
to trust, and so you kind of need to be
left alone to make it. I maybe would take it
(38:55):
to one or two places. But I don't think I
would go out, you know, with my hands out hoping
that Hollywood understands this film. Now I'm playing the game
in a more sophisticated way now, with age and with experience,
where you're sort of like, oh, I see what this
is and I see how it could go wrong, and
just to give this film a winning hand, I'd need
the space to actually make it what it could be,
(39:17):
not be fielding a bunch of notes from a bunch
of people who are afraid who needed to you know who,
that they've never seen a film like this before. So
I think, yeah, it's more just about how to set
yourself up to succeed.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I want to see this movie. Were you were you?
Maybe well were you?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Probly you'll If I don't make it, I'll come back
and tell you the rest of the story.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
This has been fantastic. This episode was produced by Nina
Bird Lawrence with Tali Emlin and ben A Dapph Haffrey.
Editing by Sarah Nicks, original scoring by Luis Quira, Engineering
by Echo Mountain. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. I'm
(40:02):
Malcolm Gladwell.
Pushkin. You called it a fairy tale? Yeah, do you have?
Is there a fairy tale that you were inspired by?
Which fairy tale is this?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I don't know if there's one. I think it's so
the opening, the opening of the movie is and this
will just tell you the tone. There's a voice over
throughout the movie, and the opening shot is you're pushing
in on this kennel in the middle of nowhere, and
it's out in the field, and it's like there once was,
you know, an animal named Bandit, and the Bandit used
(00:52):
to have had dreams of blah blah blah, blah blah.
And you're pushing in, pushing in, pushing in, until you
get to this pit bull sitting at the center, and
it's a thing of fighting pipules. And he named himself
Bandit because and you see a flash of a little
boy that the dog had seen from his kennel far
far away, playing with his puppy, named Bandit, and Bandit
had dreams of one day being that dog, and he
(01:13):
hoped that one day someone would give him a chance
and believe in him. And this dog trainer comes, the
fighting trainer and takes band It out, and he's like
come on, get out of here. And he's pushing, dragging
him along, and then he's like, but that's many, many
years ago, and Bandit suddenly turns around and just fucking
launches it as trainer and kills the dude. And at
this point in Bandit's life, all Bandit ever wanted was
(01:36):
just revenge, you know, like just bloody revenge for the
life that he's lived. I'm not remembering it verbat him.
It was a long time ago, but it's like and
all he wanted was just one shot, just to get
paidback and nothing more. And then you just push in
on him and he's just got blood down his neck.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Welcome to Development Hell, our mini series about the movies
that Hollywood never made. This episode is about a film
starring a dog, I Misunderstood Dog, that the filmmaker Patty
Jenkins wanted to make. You've heard of her, I'm sure
her debut feature was A Monster, an incredible portrait of
(02:19):
Eileen Warenose, a prostitute who killed seven of her clients.
Jenkins wrote and directed Monster Charlie's Throne, took the lead
role and went on to win the Best Actress Oscar
for it. Patty Jenkins next tour of force, directing the
twenty seventeen version of A Wonder Woman. The movie was
a hit with critics and made more than one hundred
(02:40):
million dollars in its opening weekend. But somewhere between those
two hits, Patty Jenkins had the idea of telling a
different kind of story.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So I became aware of these dog prison programs and
started to really research them and watch them and came
up with this story, which is kind of a fairy
tale that takes place in a dog program where the
lead characters are the dog. And my ambition was to
make a rated R dog movie where I wanted the
(03:18):
dog to give a performance so good they discussed whether
to give it an oscar. You know, that was my
whole goal, But there was a heavy there's a serious
tour de force role for a man.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So far in development. Hell, we've only told stories about
men and the movies they haven't made. This is our
first story involving a woman. It's not for lack of trying.
We made call after call. We recorded a truly fantastic
episode with a prominent female screenwriter, and then she asked
us not to run it. With good reason. Her movie
(03:52):
never got made because she ran into a male director
who didn't get the most beautiful and brilliant part of
her script, and she didn't want to out him, not
if she wanted to keep working as a screenwriter. And
she's right. Women in Hollywood play by a very different
set of rules than men. They don't have the same freedom,
and more specifically, they're not allowed to tell the same
(04:12):
kinds of stories, which was the brick wall that Patty
Jenkins ran into with her fairy tale about a misunderstood
pitbull named Bandit.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
This is a bad dog, right for sure. You end
up realizing as the story goes by, these trainers beat
the shit out of these dogs, they abuse them, and
so yeah, every once in a while they're going to
turn on and kill somebody. And that's life, you know.
I obviously, having made Monster, have sympathy for why people
do the things that they do and interest in why
they do the things that they do. But I think
(04:47):
that's also what the core of the story is. By
the end of the movie, you've seen that bann It
is this wonderful dog if someone had just given him
a chance to prove what he's capable of doing.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Patty, Patty hold on, yeahackup dog prisons. So tell me
the story, Tell me the story, and tell me what
a dog prison is.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So there are these programs throughout the country where they
put dogs, unadoptable dogs in with inmates and they have
those inmates rehabilitate the dogs. And what's an incredible thing
about it is that the closer you get to studying
why and what's happening in these prison programs, you realize
and this is very much what the movie was about,
(05:26):
that you're talking about a population of people that no
one gives a second chance to. And this will come
back around to because it's, ironically, I think, related to
why I could not get the movie made. Everybody wants
to believe that these are bad guys, they're only interested
in having them suffer and pay their dues. But the
truth is that the closer you get to prison, the
more you realize that prisons are mostly full of just
(05:49):
poor people. The prisons are full of guys who have changed,
never were that bad, have been in since Juvie, and
there's no way out. So the incredible thing about these
dog programs is that they you're looking at a population
of people that nobody is interested in anything other than
having them pay their dues and then in these animals
(06:10):
that don't see them that way and need them to
be their hero, and the men just come alive. So
you're using their time to do this incredible thing and
it ends up being an absolutely stunning program where the
inmates that end up being enrolled in this have their
(06:30):
acidivism rate drops to almost zero. And that's what the
movie was called. I Am Superman. The guy who gets
paired with this dog names him Superman.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah, yeah, So what is the what's the can you
can you be more specific about the emotional journey of
the actor in this.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
The emotional journey of the actor is is the last
vestige of hope that they can get out and that
they can have their life changed, and it's crushed when
the prison shuts down the dog program and sends the
dog away to be put down and all hell breaks loose.
The journey of the actor is very much the journey
(07:08):
that I've seen happen with any guys in prison, which
is like, oh, I got tricked into thinking that I
could get a ged and I could go and change
my life, But the truth is no, because even when
you get out, nobody's really going to hire you. They're
not going to give you a chance. They're not going
to ever believe that you're different. They're only going to
be interested in the tough guy that you were. And
so what are you gonna do. You're gonna become a
criminal again, because it's at least there's some integrity of
(07:29):
being a bad guy, you know, like there's no integrity
of being a loser. And so it's that's his journey,
and it ends up going differently than that in the end,
but only by a miracle. And so the movie was
a fairy tale about a single dog, and the dog's
opening scene of the movie, the dog kills its trainer.
It's like sitting on top of him with blood dripping
(07:51):
down its mouth. It's a fighting pit bull, and he
gets put in a shelter and is supposed to be
put down. But this dog gets accidentally put in the
program and the inmate that gets paired with him has
just been brought back into prison after being he had
just and he's been accused of another crime. But because
(08:13):
he had had, you know, had been a good history
when he was in prison before, they let him get
into this program. But he hates dogs, and so it's
the story of this this terrible pit bull supposedly and
this terrible man who are paired together, who actually hate
each other, who have to go through this program together.
(08:33):
And I can't tell you the whole story because I
still may make this movie and I don't want everybody
to know everything. But the truth is it doesn't go
the way you think. It's not a touchy feeling. I'm
not interested in just straightforward issue movies. So this is
this is very much a fairy tale, and the story
goes slightly differently than you think it would, but but
(08:55):
it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Can you give us one tiny little hint of a
little direction that it goes in.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, you would, one would assume, and will assume that
it is that the man and the dog change each other. Yeah,
they do start to change each other. But then the
entire program is sabotaged by the prison and by the
administration and by the corruption, which is exactly what really
is going on in these prison situations, and things turn
(09:23):
out very very differently, like a bunch of different people
go a different way.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Who do we root for more by the end, the
dog or both?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I mean, you really get to know them both and
you understand. You end up understanding how misunderstood they are
completely and how disinterested in anybody is in what's really
their story, except they figure out what's up with each other,
but nobody else cares or is open to it.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
This is this sort of on one level, is super bleak.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
It's not. It's magical, No, it is. It is. The
journey is bleak, and it seems like it's going to be,
but it ends up being magical, and I love the
ending and it's wonderful, but really it's it it. You'd
like to think that, you know, there are these great
programs and that they're changing people, and so of course
we're going to continue to do them, But not only
(10:18):
does that not happen, but then it goes a very
different way, and that goes to the point of why
I think no one ever made the movie, because the
movie is all about the main character is already changed.
He's already a changed guy, and so it really ends
up being about the corruption that surrounds these guys, where
(10:38):
even if you've changed and you've become a better person,
or you've never really done anything, there's no way out
because everybody's only interested in seeing you as the tattoos
that you have and the history.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
After the break, Patty and I talk more about dogs
and development. Hell, we're back with Patty Jenkins. Are you
a dog person?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
It's not a dog person, fanatical dog person. I love dogs.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
What kind of dog do you have?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I have a pit bull and I have a French bulldog. Yeah,
but I've had pit bulls my whole life.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Did you grow up with dogs as a kid sort of?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I mean I yes, I was always my mom didn't
want us to have a dog, but I was always
finding a way to get dogs, and so yeah, I
had different dogs. And also my grandparents lived in Mississippi
when I was young, and so I would spend every
summer down there with them in Mississippi, and there were
like twenty thirty pitples there. And this is kind of
before pitbulls had this bad reputation. And so I grew
(11:46):
up around pit bulls and I understand them and know
them and love them and think that they're so smart
and interesting. And so that's another thing.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
An incredibly steadfast dog.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Unbelievably, And by the way, it's not to say that
there aren't some people breeding hyper aggressive ones. I've always
I've never been the person who says, oh, they're just
like any other dog. Dangerous dogs, you need to know
what you're dealing with. If it does bite somebody, it
can do a lot of damage. They're not very likely
to bite somebody, and they are incredibly smart and independent
(12:20):
and emotional dogs, one of the most intelligent breeds.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, so how do you first of all, when you
conceive of a movie that hasn't both you know whose
principal characters are a person and an animal? What challenges
does the Does the dog present huge challenge?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I mean chalge? So this is part of what I
was so excited and interested about. My goal was to
get an honest performance out of a pitbull. They are
incredibly emotive dogs and so you can just read what's
going on on their face. So that got me really
interested in how do we do this, not just having
a trainer, you know, be over here. Really what it
(13:02):
was going to come down to was putting the actor
in the zelle with the dog and actually trying to
elicit that real perform it's out of the dog with
almost no crew around. I was always when we would
talk about budget, I was saying, I want to get
the tiniest crew, but I want to shoot a lot
of days, and so it was just going to be
slow to try to wait until you get that right
(13:25):
expression out of the dog and elicit that actual performance
from the dog.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
And so what are you looking for from the dog specifically?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
It depends, So it's a whole you know, it's a
whole story. So you would need the dog to dislike
the guy and be hostile. You'd need the dog to
become curious and interested but apprehensive, and then the dog
to you know, start to fall in love with the guy.
You need the dog to all kinds of things. He
has to have a moment where he flips out and
(13:55):
so so you would need everything. And that was going
to be kind of the sport of it.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
But the whole time that you're trying to elicit a
natural performance from the dog, the dog is aware that
there's someone with a camera.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Maybe maybe not. So if you hid enough cameras around
and laughs, you know, like the way that they do
like reality shows where their cameras mounted all over the
car and you know, or comedians in cars with coffee
or like whatever, you can hide different cameras. I would
shoot it differently than all of my other films, because
everything else I've done, I've done on film, and you know,
(14:28):
it's a very big, big production. This I would actually
be open to shooting digitally for this very reason, just
so that I could get cameras everywhere. The addition, the
other thing I wanted to do was I wanted to
shoot it in a real prison with inmates as part
part of the crew. There are a couple of prisons
that have like two different They have a very busy prison,
(14:49):
but they also have like a closed down section of
the prison nearby, And so I was working on that
idea as well. Where you know, just the same way
you would run a dog program, you run a very
you know the yard where the kind of vetted inmates are.
You have them come and be trained to work as
crew on the film. The problem is it, you know,
(15:11):
it becomes a little tough if there's lockdowns and things
like that, and that happens all the time. But this
was all gonna you know, I was going to try
to figure out how much of it I could do
that way.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And what about the actor.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
The actor would have to be on board in a
in a different it would be a ride. It would
be like a journey. You and that actor would be
on a ride trying to figure out how to do
this film together and try to figure out how. They'd
have to love dogs. They'd have to be interested in
the endeavor and it would be you know, interesting to
find out how it went. You'd have to be learning
(15:42):
the dog as you went.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
But it's not just have to love dogs. It's that
you're also acting. So in the first part of the relationship,
you have to act that you don't love dogs.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
M So again, that would go into camera work. When
I've worked with kids before, you sometimes have moments where
the actor is directing the kid off camera. I've had
one where this act, this adult actress was was Geene
Tripplehorn was acting out for the child what the child
should do. It was wonderful because we couldn't get the
(16:14):
kid to totally do it. So, you know, there are
many ways to get you know, you might be having
to do something strange to the dog to get the
dog to react strangely, you're not doing your part.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Oh I see. Yeah, So before we even get to
the studio, you've got to find an actor who's willing
to do something very unorthodox.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I wouldn't, which I don't think would be that hard actually,
because I think it's such a juicy like, it's such
a juicy performance for an actor. It's such a good role.
Had been talking to Ryan Gosling about it at the time,
and this is way back, this is two thousand and
six of two thousand and five, and then Ryan and
I were going to sort of do it alternately off
(16:59):
and on, but then he kept not being able to
do it or wanting to do it because he'd wanted
to go make money or various different things. When I
would try to go to other actors but Ryan Gosling,
I would get the same sort of thing from the guys.
They wanted to be tough and scary and stab somebody
in whatever, and and I thought that was such a
telling thing that that that was a story people struggled
(17:20):
to embrace, a non redemption story about prison. That was
the issue I had more of. Interestingly, when I tried
to make the film, even the most liberal people in
Hollywood and the most issue we companies that make these
films would always say, yeah, but can't he stab somebody
at the beginning and be about his redemption? And I
would say no, you're very much missing the point of
(17:43):
the movie. The point of the movie is that you're
romanticizing prison. If you think it's a bunch of super
dangerous people in there, it's not. I've walked around the
main line of Full sum you know, of some of
the most dangerous prisons in the country, and I'm not
fraid at all because ninety nine point nine percent of
the guys are just sad. It's just a sad sack situation.
(18:05):
It's very organized, it's just a warehouse for human beings
with no way out. And that's what I found so
fascinating about people not wanting to make it is that
no one's interested in the story about prison not being
just you know.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, so it's it's a what's fast saying about the
script is you begin I mean, the very thing that
makes it hard for the studio or an actor is
what makes it so intriguing for an audience, because you're
messing with our expectation about an animal movie. We've seen
animal movies and we know how they work. Right.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
That's why I think it's great is because the truth
is a lot of people also said to me, you
can't make a rat at oar dog movie. I was like,
but everybody said you couldn't make a dog movie at all,
and every time they make dog movies they're huge. We
love dogs, and so what are you taking. It's not
like only kids like dog movies. Adults like dog movies.
So yeah, you can definitely make a rat Atar dog movie.
So but it's just listen. I make myself feel better
(19:04):
by saying you can't. Both want to do things that
nobody's ever seen before, and then before frustrated that nobody
understands why it's going to work or why you believe
in it. But this plagues me in my whole career.
I've never done anything anybody thought I was going to succeed.
Everybody thinks everything I do is like a wonder woman
that's going to be terrible. Oh monster, that's going to
be terrible. Oh the killing is going to be a
(19:25):
bad TV whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
When you finished the screenplay and you said, what did
you say to yourself? Did you think this is a
slam dunk? Someone's going to help me make this?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
No, but I knew how how very happy I was
with it, and the people who read it had the
same reaction. You know, like people would say you know
that it was. I've had still people some people write
me and say it's still one of their favorite screenplays
they've ever read. But but I knew it was going
to be a little bit hard, but I didn't And
(19:59):
I still don't understand why no one would roll the
dice on my very low budget second film, other than
to speculate that the sexism that I was very very
disinterested in throughout my career, but see much more clearly
now wad into the fact that you know, if a
guy makes an Oscar winning first film, then then you
(20:22):
roll the dice on their second thing. Whereas throughout my
career people have not been interested in or not had
confidence in what I want to do. They've embraced me
and wanted to hire me for what they want to do.
But still to this day, like when I have my
what the stories I want to tell are, people are like, ah,
we've never seen that before, And I'm like, yeah, but
you've never seen monster before either, Like you want to
(20:44):
just give it a shot. So so, looking back, it
took me all the way until now to be like, wait,
how did nobody just say, yeah, we'll give her five
million dollars to make her second movie. Different thoughts of.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
This is super interesting and something I've been thinking about
a lot recently, which is that you're talking about sexism here.
Sexism discrimination of any kind takes all kinds of different forms. Yeah,
And in this case, what we're talking thing about is
someone is perfectly capable of saying, you made a brilliant movie.
So the sexism doesn't prevent them from seeing the genius
(21:18):
of Monster. It prevents them from seeing that you could
do it again. In other words, the way they make
sense a monster is, oh, it's a one off.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah. Yeah. And I also think it's that, of course,
it's not anybody's fault that the industry is based on
looking backwards. So if it's something this is what I
think is the real gender issue, and by the way,
not just gender issue. Diverse stories issue in Hollywood is
you can want to invite as many people behind camera
(21:48):
and into these positions as possible, but as long as
you're still basing what can and cannot succeed on the past,
you're basing it on a blueprint of a very specific voice.
And so I think that when I want to tell
a different maybe a guy wouldn't think of that story
that I'm coming up with and maybe the way the
emotions work are slightly different. Whatever, it is the combination
(22:11):
of the fact that they haven't seen it before, and
also they don't like to think of women as auteurs
or artists or take it as serious, Like there's a
there's a romantic desire to look at guys who do
like crazy art things and be like, oh my god,
they're a genius. Much less so with a woman, you know.
And so I think it's like the combination of those
things that make it tough.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So what exactly you said a little bit? But I'm curious,
So you take this script out? You want five million dollars, which,
just for those of you listening in Hollywood terms, not
a lot of money at all.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
No, I mean, everybody thought that Monster costs more than that,
like they they there was a there was a big
lawsuit about it, and one of the sides tried to
say that it costs eleven million dollars, So that's what
they thought Monster costs. It actually costs one point five
But it's very that was as little money as a
movie can be. Is five million? Really?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
And what do you so? What what exactly are you hearing?
You're hearing a people want they want. First of all,
they get that they want a different perspective on the prisoner.
You've said that they feel more comfortable where they have
a very clear redemptive narrative when it comes to the
to the past. But what else, keep going? What else?
(23:24):
What else is in their area?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
You know, I can only say that it was always
like no, It's like even these people saying like it's great,
we love the script, but it's not for us. There's
always a million different reasons. It's only as the years
have gone by, and my husband's always pointing it out too,
that we've had this so many things that I led
that or my idea like I wanted to do an
MMA show called the Fight about People in the MMA world. No, no,
(23:49):
we don't. It doesn't make sense. Then sure enough that
goes on and becomes huge. It's like I when I
go and pitch things that I want to do and
what my ideas are, so often it's been met with
with like no, but we'd love you to do this
hooker with a heart of gold script or this you
know other thing. And I'm so grateful to have been
(24:10):
embraced to do other people's things, but there is something
about it, and so yeah, it's always something different. I
don't think that they're ever even aware of it, but
I do think that there's something about confidence and excitement
in in in women's artistry that is slightly less, you know,
(24:34):
they're they're less confident in.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That's my well, that's my that's my point. There's a
a much more constricted view of of your talent. It's
like you're this desire to see to if you can
explain away a big success by saying it was like
a like a a, it was an anomaly.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
And by the way, it's always miss I feel it's
always misunderstood as well. I remember people saying to me
when I made Monster. The one studio executive actually said
to me she came into the editing and she actually
watched a part of it, and she goes, sweetheart, no
one wants to see a film like this. Oh, no,
(25:17):
one wants to see a movie like this. And she
wrote me an email saying like, oh, you're a great kid.
I know you're gonna make it one day. I'm just
really too bad.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
And this is before, of course the movie comes out
and ends up, you know, succeeding and making eighty something
million dollars by the way, and then I would hear
everybody saying like, oh, do you have any more female
serial killer things? And you're like, that's the take home lesson.
The take home lesson is that they want female serial killers.
And the same thing I felt with Wonder Woman. I
felt like Wonder Woman was there was just so much
(25:50):
emphasis on gender where it was like, Oh, everybody wants
to see a woman directing a woman's story. I'm like,
is that it It's not because of the movie. It's
not the hero's journey, it's not you know. It's like
and then there are a hundred women get women action
things made on the It's like it's always it's the
wrong lesson. But but I think in the there's so
(26:12):
much focus on the woman part of it versus being like, Oh,
it's a good film and it's an unorthodox film, but
they pulled it off. Instead, it's just like, oh, female
serial killers, that's it, That's what everybody wanted.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
At what point do you think it would change, Like,
give me a hypothetical, what would have to happen in
your career for people to say you want to do it.
Given your track record, let's go for it.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I mean, honestly, I don't know too many of the
women I know who have had major successes are also
we all behind closed doors whisper about how it sort
of doesn't. I think the world is really really long
way away from that. It's not going to happen in
my lifetime. I think it's you know, I may find
my own financing and have my own people and get
(26:56):
my own movies made. But I think that the world
is still genuinely run way behind closed doors by the
same people who have a desire for the interests that
they have, and no matter who they're putting on the
lower levels, the mandate is still bumping up to that level.
(27:17):
And the truth is like, we're real far from really
diverse voices being understood and embraced. And it's not about
money either. So that's the unfortunate thing.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I'll be right back with more from Patty Jenkins. While
(27:53):
Patty was telling me about her dog prison fairy tale,
I kept thinking about what the story shares with Monster,
how upbringing and events can conspire to wound people or
dogs and shape what we expect from them. Monster and
I am Superman both stories that ask us to look
for nuance in some very dark places. Jenkins, I was thinking,
(28:15):
seems compelled by these kinds of dark places, So I
asked her about it. Where where does this come from?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
In you? So it's funny because I think we both
have very backgrounds of a lot of exposure and travel,
and I think that that's I. You know, when I
was little, we moved to Vietna, to Thailand and during
the Vietnam War, and then we moved.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
To You're an Air Force brat.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Are Air Force brat? Yeah, And I think I grew
up consciously or unconsciously in the shadow of the Vietnam
War in Thailand, you know, with my father's people dying
right and left, and the plant, you know, everything that's
really going on. So I think I was I was
born into the around the darkness in a familiar way.
(29:07):
And then my own father passed away in a plane crash,
and you know, all these things, and I lived all
over the place. So then I've always never quite been
one type of person. I'm not like from somewhere and
like of a type, and so I've always been curious
in all types of people and what's going on with you,
and I'm not daunted by the darkness, and as a result,
(29:29):
I ended up making friends with all kinds of people
my whole life. Like I've been friends with definitely people
who have done some terrible things and ended up in prison.
And as much as I've been friends with, you know,
upper class socialites or whatever, I've known all kinds of people.
But I think that the people who end up living
(29:49):
some of the most dangerous lives have I have a
real soft spot for because I've watched them turn into
those people and seen how how misunderstood they are and
how easy it would be to happen to anybody should
they were. They the ones that went through that journey.
So it's just it's not my only as you can see,
(30:12):
like wonder Woman is also my interest, you know, like
I have Arrested development is also my interest. I have
lots and lots of interests. I think the reason I
like such diverse work myself is because because of what
I just said, I'm not one type of person. I've
had to learn how to live in different circumstances at
different times. But this issue, these issues definitely are near
(30:34):
and dear to my heart. And also I think the
most misunderstood because people have so little access to understanding
these stories.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
How old were you when your dad died?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Seven?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Oh? Wow? I always think about you know. In one
of my books, I had a whole section on what
the I think does all this work on what happens
to people when they lose a parent at a young age.
And it's this incredible study that was done in England
of extraordinarily high percentage of high achieving people lost a
(31:13):
parent in youth. And wow. The argument is that it
has one of two effects. You know, it's like, you know,
it's a Nietzschean thing. It either crushes you or it
makes you stronger. You've gone through just about the most
horrendous thing that can happen to a child, and if
you can emerge from the other side of that, you're
(31:36):
kind of toughened in some way. I'm just I'm just
using by how drawn you are to investigating this kind
of darkness and finding some some value in it. Mm hmm.
I think that that's or some understanding.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Well said, that's well said understanding. I think it was.
It's interesting to look back on this and how first
of all, it was the definitive event in my life
was my father dying. It was had a huge, huge
on everything after, particularly in my youth. I think it
was funny and watching Anatomy of a Fall this last year,
(32:16):
what I thought was so interesting that and illuminating to
me was how condescending everyone is to the child about
their understanding of what's going on. And that really rang
true to me, where I think that a lot of people,
even at our age, don't necessarily know how bad bad
can be, Like they just don't know they haven't been
(32:37):
close to it, to the worst possible thing that could
ever happen to you happening. And when it happens to
you as a child, you're obsessed with your parents at
seven years old, you are in love with them. And
my father was like such a heroic figure, like taking
off on his motorcycle every day and then flying off
in his F four. You know, it's like he was
like a superhero in my life. So to have that
(32:59):
happen and then tell me you'll never see him again,
like it was such exquisite revealing of how bad the
world can be. And now when I look back, I'm like, oh, yeah,
people are saying to you, like, oh, every cloud has
a silver lining and all these things, and you're like,
I want to die, Like you're done, it's your suicidal, really,
(33:19):
your your interest in this place is over. And I
only now realize that looking back, I'm like, oh, all
of these words, and how I was probably being viewed
as a seven year old is she'll forget him, she'll
get over him, she'll and you're like, dude, I can't.
I don't want to be here where that can happen
at any moment. I don't trust any of this now,
(33:42):
And so I think that it's it's a very interesting
thing that you do have to kind of toughen yourself
and learn how to exist in that world where you
know that that can. And I still really struggle with it.
I really struggle with it as it relates to my child,
where I'm like it with the knowing how bad bad
can be, like knowing that we all feel like it's
(34:05):
not going to be us and it can't really happen,
but it really could, you know, and it happen at
any moment, and there's nothing you can do about it,
you know. Interestingly, I don't think I would be the
director I am if my father hadn't died and then
I think monster I made literally directly about the death
of my father. It was about like, oh, okay, cool,
everything works out, everything happens, Like the voiceover in that
movie is saying, everything, you know, it's all these myths
(34:27):
that she's heard throughout her youth. If you just you know,
if you just love and believe in yourself, anything can happen. Nope,
not for Eileen Warnis, you know. So that it was
a direct a chance for me to express how dark
the world can be that people might not realize. And
I think the driven part, what's interesting, don't I'd have
(34:48):
to think about what I think it is that makes
you driven. For me, I was. I was passionate to
take control of the narrative. And my original reason for
wanting to be a filmmaker was that I thought that
the stories were always going to be terrible in real life.
So I was like, so, I want to tell my story.
I want to be the one who controls the story,
so at least I can live a good outcome there,
(35:08):
you know. And I turned out to be pleasantly wrong that,
you know. I've lived a wonderful knock on wood life
in so many ways. But yeah, I think it was
like it made me very, very driven.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
So now you're now you want to take uh this
story back out and try and maybe.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
I haven't decided. I haven't decided.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Tell me how you would knowing what you know. By
the way, what you just said is incredibly Uh, it's
sort of it's it. It's it's moved. I mean, it's
really moved. I mean it's incredibly kind of moving. And
(35:52):
and honest, you why you do what you do. What's
what's interesting is that what is for most of us.
You know, I've had a when I was growing up
as a kid, I you know, thought all the time
about what it would mean if I lost one of
my parents. But it was an abstract thought. For you,
(36:16):
it's real. That's the difference. So I can't As a kid,
when I thought about that, it wasn't something I could
put into words. It wasn't something I could make real
to anyone else. It was just a kind of It's
the kind of weird kind of fantasy you have, dark
fantasy you have at three in the morning, you're like,
oh my god, what would happen if but you actually,
(36:36):
by virtue of gone going through it, you knew what it.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Felt like mm hmm, but yeah, because after my father died,
then my sister had a like the most beautiful friend,
runaway boy who came and lived with us, and I
was like so in love with him. He was like
three years older than us, Paul Penzini. He was like
beautiful and you know, and he'd run away and was
living in our house. And then he had to go
(37:02):
visit a cousin and he got shot in the head
and killed. And so I was between those two things.
I was like, this place sucks, I you know. Was
it made me very romantic though, like you interestingly that
kind of tragedy I think, particularly for the opposite sex
parent and then the opposite sex older brother figure. It
(37:22):
made me so romantic about everything, but about like love
and longing and loss. I think it's like I take
for granted my familiarity with the darkness, but of course
the romance of the stories I want to tell are
very much born from that, And so I think I
(37:45):
sort of thought I was this much darker, rebellious, the
type of person that makes monster in my youth, and
now I realize I'm not that person. I'm also the
person that makes wonder woman I'm all kinds of you know,
like I've grown up. I'm not just that person. But
so I think that makes me look back and say, yeah,
why do I have that much darkness? Oh that's interesting,
(38:05):
let's look back. You you really don't you just you
just go forward for a long long time before you say, like,
how do I explain to people that I made Monster
and I made wonder Woman?
Speaker 1 (38:14):
You know? So, if you were to take this movie
back out, knowing what you know both about your the
first round of attempts with it and about yourself, how
would you pitch it differently?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I don't think I would pitch it. First of all,
I don't think I would. I think I would try
to stack it up with my own financing and control
because I think I made I've made my peace with
the fact that it might not be the easiest thing
to trust, and so you kind of need to be
left alone to make it. I maybe would take it
(38:55):
to one or two places. But I don't think I
would go out, you know, with my hands out hoping
that Hollywood understands this film. Now I'm playing the game
in a more sophisticated way now, with age and with experience,
where you're sort of like, oh, I see what this
is and I see how it could go wrong, and
just to give this film a winning hand, I'd need
the space to actually make it what it could be,
(39:17):
not be fielding a bunch of notes from a bunch
of people who are afraid who needed to you know who,
that they've never seen a film like this before. So
I think, yeah, it's more just about how to set
yourself up to succeed.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I want to see this movie. Were you were you?
Maybe well were you?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Probly you'll If I don't make it, I'll come back
and tell you the rest of the story.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
This has been fantastic. This episode was produced by Nina
Bird Lawrence with Tali Emlin and ben A Dapph Haffrey.
Editing by Sarah Nicks, original scoring by Luis Quira, Engineering
by Echo Mountain. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. I'm
(40:02):
Malcolm Gladwell.
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