White Privilege. Friends of Color. Be the Change. Making Space for Yourself.

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, Happy Thursday, everybody amy here, and just out of
the gate, I'm gonna let you know that today's episode
is gonna look a little bit different. I don't have
my typical theme song happening, because I have something even better.
I have my friend Brittany here, who's going to open
us up with a little bit of music, and then

(00:22):
I'll get into what we're going to cover on today's episode,
and I'll just tell you that it has to do
with the awakening that's happening in our country right now.
And I look forward to you hearing every part of
this episode that you so that you can feel equipped
and empowered to be the change and be a part

(00:46):
of something bigger. And we're all learning and un learning
so much right now. But I definitely want to start
with Brittany playing us a little something. So, Brittany, do
you want to share with everybody what you're gonna sing
real quick? Yeah? I UM, I'm gonna sing, lift every
voice and sing um. It was actually performed for the

(01:10):
first time by UH five school children. UM song that
was originally a poem by James Wolden and it's UH
considered the black national anthem. And I'm really Um, I'm
really proud every time I sing it, So I'm gonna
sing it out M lift overy voice and sing toner

(01:40):
fun like ring lift the Hoes, uhty let um met
your sing rist hid a smart to Later is on

(02:15):
Thank You, Brittany. Brittany is actually gonna be joining me
as one of my things today. We're going to walk
you guys through what a conversation looks like with a
person of color, if you have someone in your life
that you know you need to reach out to to
tell them. I I don't understand what you're going through,

(02:37):
but I want you to know that I'm with you.
And it's not lost on me that for some of
you this is very new and it might be a
tough conversation to have. But Brittany and I just had
that phone call last night and we're going to share
with you all a little bit about what we talked
about and just give you all the encouragement that you
need uh to do it and you know, and he

(03:00):
has some really great advice. Then. Also today I have
Dr Beverly tatum On and she's a psychologist that's widely
known for both her expertise on race relations even as
a thought leader in higher education. And I actually posted
her book on my Instagram the other night because once

(03:22):
I found out I was interviewing her, I thought, oh
my goodness, I need to start reading her book. I
had had a few other books that I had started,
but I put those down to engage in hers, and
I'm so glad that I did. And it's called why
are all the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?
And other conversations about race. I encourage you guys to

(03:42):
download that or get it if you can. Or she
has an awesome ted X talk that she did uh
for ted X Stanford that you can check out. It's
about a ten minute ted X and it's really really good.
But you'll hear her on today's episode, and I hope
you'll check out some of her work after that. And
then another thing today is going to be the pastor

(04:05):
of my church, Pastor Matt small Bone, and we're gonna
discuss mostly white privilege. We talk about a few other things,
but sometimes or I know for some people it might
be hard right now to realize, oh, shoot, I have
white privilege. And we'll talk you through that and know
that you're not alone. If you're just now discovering your privilege.

(04:27):
That's amazing you're discovering it and you're headed in the
right direction, and we're all trying to navigate this territory.
For some of us, it's completely new and unknown. And
I'm just thankful for the people that I have on
today's episode that are going to help get us going
in that the direction that we need to be going.

(04:48):
And then lastly, the fourth thing I'm going to cover
is just some self care tips for everybody. My friend
Lisa sent out an email about it, and I just
I am going to be sharing with you all some
tips she put out there because there's so much heaviness
right now, and I think in order to keep our
bodies in our minds prepared for all the information we're
learning or unlearning or in the ways we want to

(05:10):
show up and be there for people, if we're not
taking care of ourselves, then we're not going to be
any good to anybody else. So with that said, that
is today's episode, and we'll go ahead and get started. First,
I asked the pastor of our church, Church of the City,

(05:33):
Matt small Bone, Hey, what I asked him to come
by and chat with us for this episode because on Sunday.
You know, I don't know how early y'all plan messages
or if you kind of had to. I mean I
certainly did. This week's episode. I had to pivot and
realized I had another episode planned, but I had to

(05:54):
scratch it and do what I thought was right for
the moment, and that was this. And before Church started,
you kind of came on and this is all virtual.
Of course we're watching Church on YouTube, but you came
on and had a special message at the beginning, because
it's obviously you couldn't ignore what's happening. Yeah, So we've

(06:14):
been filming Church, sometimes two weeks before we've had it.
So this this week was one of those weeks where
we had to pivot. It was pretty clear from time
to time something comes up that kind of impacts the
national zeitgeist. That is important that we've had about things
that that service had actually been prerecorded two weeks earlier.
And so Friday night I fan myself just trying to
write something. I mean, this this is hard. I'm an

(06:36):
immigrant from Australia. I feel the weight of Dr King's words.
If you've ever read his prison letters about just the
unavailability of white pastors in the in the South to
to kind of join the movement, the civil rights movement,
that that those words are haunting to me, that in
our time that I would I would be someone, you know,

(06:56):
a white person of considerable privilege, the an immigrant that
I sit on the sidelines. So I I sit with
my laptop and research and just try and try and
understand who our people are. You know, our church, we've
got some really there's some really kind sophisticated thought around
issues of race among among our people. And so you're

(07:16):
just trying to meet people where where they are, and
and I really labor over those words. It actually caused
me a lot of anxiety getting getting that words right,
because words are powerful. When you are gifted the responsibility
of a microphone, they're even they're even more powerful. And
you have many friends of Carla, all of whom hurting tremendously,
and I think I mostly have them in mind as

(07:38):
I work on being brave and just putting the extra
work to get the messaging right. I think it's time
for people to to speak up, and we can't be
silent about it anymore. And so you addressing that at
the beginning of church, you know, We had our kids
sitting there with us, and we had to pose it
because you were in middle of talking about what had
been happening and our kids. We had shielded him from

(08:00):
the news because that's it's brutal. They don't we need
to discuss things with them. But also it's hard for us.
And we've known since our interracial adoption training. Okay, you're white,
your kids are black. There's no way you're ever going
to understand things are going to experience when they are older.
It's terrifying. Oh yeah, So I'm thinking through you guys
as as I'm writing these things. Is just just trying

(08:22):
to be helpful. Well, Stevenson right away, and we had
to pause it because we wanted to hear everything you
had to say and we don't want to miss it.
So we paused it and they started stuh here and
Stevens and we're asking questions and we explain some things,
and Stevenson, just with all the conviction in the world,
was like, wait a second, I do not understand. God

(08:43):
made us equal, and he had his hands in the
air like equal, and he was very passionate about it.
And I thought, you know what, You're right, and I
know that that parents, in particular, these horrible stories that
they keep surfacing of violenced towards people of color is unacceptable.

(09:03):
Part of being a Christians being patient and kind, but
I mean that's truly what love is. Paul defined it
as that patient and kind. But the Biblical definition of
patients has so much teeth to it. I think we've
changed that word to mean like Christians should be nice
or something. But Biblical patients when you study the Greek,
it's actually about being able to stay under the weight
of pressure and and be able to handle difficult things

(09:27):
for a longer amount of time, be kind of before
you explode in anger. And so I think in this moment,
Christians have been called in particular to not just kind
of champ out and retreat from the pressure of this,
but to fully engage and be willing to shoulder, especially
those of us with white skin, to kind of be protected.
As you know, love is patient and kind, it also
protects as well, to be protectors of those who need

(09:51):
it in this moment, be be truly global neighbors. I
want to be you know, super clear. I'm not an
expert on this. You know, psychologists talk about the dunning
Krueger of effect, which is, you know, the more you
know about something, the more you understand that you lack
the knowledge. So sort of like rookies at anything really
believed their geniuses at stuff, and it's and it's not
until you've really put in the hours. And so I'm

(10:13):
a good five to ten years into researching issues of race.
What does it mean for us and its Nashville to
be responsible neighbors in a rapidly gentrifying neighborhood? Like what
does that actually look like? It's a really really complicated question.
And then so we're just trying to you know, at
the very least, I think, and I know this is
difficult for some people, but I think we need to

(10:34):
acknowledge the privilege those of us with white skin that
we experience. I remember we we hosted a panel one
one MLK Sunday. I don't know if you were there
yet that year, but Dr Leslie Collins from Fisk University
looked at me and asked me this question. She said,
what's it like to be white? We started talking about privilege,
and she said, well, I've got a question for you.

(10:54):
She said, what's it like to be white? I had
no answer. For it. I'd never thought about it before,
and I said, I'm not sure I've ever thought about it,
and she goes, well, that's that's the privilege of that.
And I think people think. One of the reasons the
idea of white privilege is hard for people is because
they think it means it's a it's an assumption that
white people don't have a hard life, and that's that's

(11:15):
just not true. Everybody has had a hard life. The
idea of privilege means that your skin color hasn't made
your life any more difficult. And so I think, you know,
as a starting point, and I have smart friends who
would say, you don't want to hang any kind of
intellectual argument on the idea of white privilege, But for
me it was it was a starting point because I
didn't consider I didn't think about things like privilege in

(11:37):
my twenties. I just enjoyed the privilege of it. I know,
I know you'll have listeners who will think it's probably
not a thing, But here's how I think about it.
I think it is either a thing or every person
of color has this kind of secret email server where
they've communicated with each other, say hey, let's tell these stories.
Let's make up these stories about how we get stopped

(11:58):
by the police all the time, and how when we're
teaching our kids how to drive, the first thing we
teach them is how to put their hands on the
steering wheel. I think this is either the most incredibly
well organized messaging coup by people of color to make
this stuff up, or every single person of color friend
of mine shares these stories of a life of disadvantage

(12:21):
that I've I've never had. I was chatting with a
country music made of mine yesterday. His band is mostly
white guys, but one of their one of the players,
their drummer is a black dude. And the way bus
call works for the folks outside of Nashville basically, your
bus pulls up, it's the nearest Kroger to whoever the
biggest star in the band lives, and everyone piles on.

(12:42):
It's usually at midnight because you're heading to Sboygan or somewhere,
and they noticed that their drummer was always getting there
twenty minutes early. So bus call at midnight random Kroger,
which is a supermarket chain in Tennessee. Is that America?
I don't know. I mean, there's Kroger's, around Monster, any
grocery store. So yeah, if you ever want to meet

(13:03):
someone famous, hang out at Croaker parking lots at midnight
and see who's on the bus. But his his drum
will sharp. Early dressed, kind of business casual. You know,
we're we're in a college shirt and and you know
everyone else shows up ready just to sleep, wearing their
you know, their bus pajamas, which is like track suits
or something. And they eventually asked him like, why why
do you why are you dressed so well for bus call?

(13:25):
And they said, well, I've I've got to imagine I
might get I need time. I need to buffer in.
This is how he thinks I need to buffer in
time in case I get pulled over. And I also
need to look kind of like a professional so that
I'll be able to get here in case you get
pulled over. And those are those are things I've never
had had to worry about, and and the stories are
just consistent. I just hope people will take this cultural

(13:48):
moment that we're in to listen to people. If all
of this seems crazy and insane, I just encourage you
to take a couple of years to diversify your friendships
and and listen to stories and you'll see you just
see the sad consistency of disadvantages that people of color
a feeling. And then and then learn. You know, there's
tons of reading you need to do. I know you've

(14:08):
got other experts better at this than me on this topic,
but but learn. I think as Christians, the spiritual responses
to lament connect your heart to this, you know, realign
our hearts. Say you had someone that came to him
as like, I don't know, I'm still wrestling with this
idea of white privilege. Like I've yeah again, like you said,
I've had X, Y and Z happened to me. And

(14:30):
there's some very real concerns, Like have you ever read
hill Billy Elegy. It's heard of it. It's a fascinating
book about a young white guy raised in the appellations
and ended up you know, getting going off to college.
We're just telling the story of his life. But there's
there's a lot of reason for concern in lower class
whites as well, that they're the only group in America
of people whose whose life expectancy is currently decreasing. So

(14:54):
there's very real concern all around and it's and it's
you know, not to not to say that the idea
isn't that none of of us with white skin don't
have any problems. It's it's just that the skin color
doesn't doesn't make life any more complicated. And I love
the way you said that the first time, and I'm
glad you said it again because I think if we're
it's some more to come to you and say, hey,
you know, Pastor Manda, I'm just wrestling with this, which

(15:17):
which I have all the time, right so people people,
people have left our church over the use of it's
it's it's a it's a powerful phrase, over the use
of what the world wide privilege. Okay, okay, well I
was going to say my encouragement was going to be like,
if you feel that, wrestle to me, that's affirmation work

(15:39):
needs to be done, Yes, But I guess people can
also look at it the other way and say, oh, nope,
not ready to work. I'm walking I'm going to walk
away from this, yes, And I think the truth is
we can't. We can't be part of repairing or reimagining
a world that we don't understand. And part of this
process is understanding that repairing on the part of white people.

(16:01):
Part of the solution is going to be giving something up,
not not just leaping in to save the day and
um that that that is what's in front of us.
We we have a chance to heroically serve and protect
because as a mom, what I want to do for
Stevenson and Stashira. I want to protect them because I
love them. But we don't have to know everybody that

(16:22):
we're If we're called to love others, you may be like, well,
I don't really know if any people of color to protect. Well,
that might be an invitation for you to try to
grow in that area and find some people to diversify
your groups. Or also, who cares if you know any
like love strangers, like do what you can to protect

(16:44):
them without them maybe never even knowing. There's some real
responsibility in the global village of of loving your neighbor.
One of the upsides to globalism is that every everyone
is now our neighbor. You literally, you're not trying very hard.
If you can't find someone to be a friend who
doesn't does it look like you wherever you live, And
it's a challenge and it'll take take humility. But I

(17:05):
just want to say to your listenership, like if you're
starting off on this journey and you and you don't
understand everything that's going on right now, like why people
might be writing you know, Dr King would say, right
is the language of the unheard. I would just encourage
you to make a new friend or two this week
and just just ask them about their lives, and you'll
be amazed at the consistency of their stories in how

(17:29):
they would answer the question what's it like to be black?
They were actually about to answer that for you, whereas
you may you may be lost on what's it like
being white? Yeah, and I think we can probably leave
people with that question. It's a very question you were asked,
and it was the first time. I assume that was
the first time you've been asking it because you had
never thought about it. It was the start of a
journey of it moving. I love everybody, I really do,

(17:52):
and I'm cheering everybody on that. It was a question
that moved this from from my head being an intellectual exercise,
move it to my heart and started realigning things. I
started feeling pain. You've gotta be willing to feel pain
to engage with this. That's that's part of maturing as
a person, allowing the world to access your heart. Difference
isn't a fruit of the spirit, you know, indifferences And

(18:12):
I'm sorry I'm talking Christian here, but it's it's the right,
it's the language I know best, that's all. But it's not,
you know, indifference. This is about patients and kindness protection.
You know. I feel like anything that you've said, no
matter what faith anybody is that's listening, can be something
they can take in and never apologize for how you

(18:35):
deliver something or who you are. And I want to
leave listeners with what has your life been like as
white or black? And I hope if any of my
listeners of color, that you have the opportunity to share
what your life has been like, because it's the only
way we're gonna no. Well, you and I speak in
front of microphones as a as a major part of

(18:58):
our living and and the responsibil it is high and
words and words, oh yeah, I trade lesson a second
with you, Amy, for sure. Words words matter. I get recognized.
People think I'm Bobby Bones all the time. I got
these fancy glasses and it started. Yes, Pastor Matt has
curly hair, which Bobby has when it grows out and

(19:19):
then he has black rim glasses. Oh, my kids the
like our first time we took them to church when
they got to America a couple of years ago. We
walked in and they're like, Bobby the confusing bid is
my last name small Bone. So I get stopped in
lines and I hear them say I love you work Bones,
And that was my nickname in high school. So it's

(19:41):
all very confusing. Oh and You're like, oh, thank you,
and they're like, yeah, I didn't know being a pastor
major rock star. Yeah. I loved it for a week.
Then I realized what was going on. Awesome, Well, thank
you for taking the time to share with us kind
of what you've you're working through in them, what you're
gonna lead our community to do, because I think it's
important and I appreciate it. You Amy sick and Okay,

(20:10):
So for this thing, I want my super talented friend
Brittany Spencer to join us and talk about what it
looks like for us to reach out to people of
color and to be totally honest. I don't know Brittany
terribly well, but she is in my life and have

(20:32):
seen her She worked at the Turnip Truck where I
get my my beat juice when I was drinking at
a ton and I gotta tell you, nobody made it
as good as Brittany. And she was just always such
a joy when I went in there. And then come
to find out she was a fan of Pimp and Joy,
which was super cool. And she's wearing her hoodie right now.

(20:54):
And then you ran into my brother in law like
at an airport and here he well, he didn't know
you student recognize you, but he recognized your sweatshirt and saw, hey,
Pip Enjoy, that's my sister in law. And so then
you hung out with him, and then we would see
each other, I guess again at the store. And then
I thought, oh my gosh, like she's so you're stunning

(21:16):
inside and out. And we were doing the Empowered Women
campaign and I reached out to you and asked, hey,
would you want to take some pictures for this? And
you were so down and you came right over and
it was just super cool. So you're in my mind.
And obviously with everything going on, I'm thinking of all
the different people in my life that are really affected

(21:38):
right now. So I have been making it a point
to reach out to each person and whether I know
them super well or whether I know them sort of well,
and I love that. I think last night, when I
called you to just tell you, hey, I don't understand
what you're going through, but I want you to know
you're not alone, I was a little nervous to do

(21:59):
it because it in I didn't know. It's like, I
don't want her to receive this the wrong way. And
I'm not trying to just do this for nobody knows
that I'm doing this. I'm really just trying to connect
with her on this because it's important. And you were
so gracious and kind, and I know that I need
to be more intentional about the relationships I have, especially

(22:20):
with two black children. Like why I have a been
more proactive about making sure that I have or diverse
relationships is on me. And so I've always felt a
really easy connection with you but never taken it to
the next level. And I have other friends that I've
lost touch with that now maybe this will bring us

(22:41):
back together because for whatever reason, we lost touch. But
it's important, I think for people to evaluate and assess
who's in my life, Like how if I'm really confused
and what's going on in the world right now. Maybe
it's because I'm not talking to some of the right
people that are really feeling the hurt and the pain,

(23:02):
and that I've been feeling it for years and years
and years and years. This is not new, but it
is something about this time around is different, and I'm
here for it, yea. And I want you to share
with people. And then, of course I got your permission
to share our conversation, but I want you to share
with people what you told me last night when I
reached out. You said you had another friend that reached

(23:24):
out to you as well, and kind of made an
assumption just like a handful of my my wife friends
that reached out to me just during the time of
the Nashville rally and the protests and just reaching out,
just kind of like what you did, just saying hey,
just um, just reaching out. Just let you know I
stand with you. I don't I don't get it all
the time, and I will never understand what it is

(23:45):
that you experience or may face. He assumed that like
it was a lot of people, and I just thought,
it's actually not a lot of people who have reached
out to me and I'm I don't. I'm not looking
for a whole lot of people to reach out to me.
The ones that do, I'm so grateful for those that
have reached out and just said, hey, just checking in,
just you know, how can I be there? How can
I be a part? Because sometimes those conversations lead to

(24:07):
this conversation we have now, and it's not necessarily resulting
in and a public conversation, but it's just an ongoing conversation,
which I think is always the goal. And I just
thought and I said, man, the most significant thing that
any of my white friends can do is talk to
their white friends, talk to their family members. I think, uh,

(24:28):
sometimes race can be so hard for white people to
talk about. But if we just if if if white
people just kind of talked about it more and actually
had the hard conversations and advocate it more in the
rooms that I'll never probably be privy to, and the
conversations that people won't have because they don't want to
say it while while black women is there. You know,
they don't want to say while the black person is there.

(24:50):
But I'm not privy to those conversations. Those are good
times to stand up the most. So when I talked
to my white friends. I'm always saying, hey, you have
you have a task, and the task is uh is
is checking in with your black friends when something happens
like this, because it really is traumatic. When I heard
about George Floyd, it was traumatic when I watched the video,

(25:14):
and many black people haven't watched the video, and that's
a whole other separate issue. And whether or not, you know,
do we keep reliving the trauma of watching black people
black bodies lie on the ground and die or get killed.
Um the view of Ahmad Aberary, it's traumatic, Eric Garner, traumatic,
and you just we just replay that stuff in our heads.
It's not that it's just such a sad thing. We

(25:37):
see in the context of that could be me, that
could be my brother. We see the history of all
of this. We see hundreds of years of just disregard
for black life. So it's not just a video. But
the most important thing a white person can do is
talk to their white friends. And I think too, Just

(25:57):
to make sure, I wanted to bring up that one
of your friends assumed you were getting several messages and again,
you're not looking for tons of messages, but I want
to be careful for everybody listening to maybe not use
that as one of your excuses, because I feel like
that's the thing we may have in our head is like, oh,
I'm sure they've already gotten messages, like I don't need

(26:19):
to do it, or I'm sure they're getting bombarded right now,
like it's fine, Like I don't need to speak up.
But that's a lie. Whether they're getting tons of messages
or not, it doesn't matter. You still should speak up
and make sure that they know that you're with them.
I even had my best friend from high school sent
me a text message today I'm white obviously, but my

(26:41):
kids are not. And she sent me a note and
pulling it up. And we had a good conversation the
other day, but this stuff didn't come up. So that's
why she starts it off by saying, by the way,
because I feel like she she was like, Okay, I
need to say this to her. She said, I stand
with your children. I stand with you. Black lives matter,
Your children matter. We didn't get to talk much about this,

(27:02):
but I'm here for you. I'm on this journey and
have been for some time. Stuhar and Stevenson are beautiful
black children. And they matter, and so she took the
time as my friend to make sure just to recognize.
I mean, I don't, I don't just like you. I
didn't need that from her, but it's like, oh awesome,
she recognizes my children matter. And you know, when it

(27:25):
comes to the Black lives matter versus all lives matter, Yeah,
share with me how it makes you feel when people
try to disregard the Black lives matter because they're on
the defense that we will all lives matter. It feels
like cheap avoidance. That's when it feels like it feels

(27:47):
like an easy way to dismiss an issue, to absolve
yourself from it. It feels like there's no problem here,
we all matter. It feels like a refusal to share
space and to recognized that there is inequality, that there is, uh,
just a huge level of unfairness that has has always

(28:10):
been at the at the man just always been present
and in in in the country that we live in.
And so it's it's when I hear when I hear
all lives matter, it sounds like, well, everyone's life matters.
And the fact that you think that your life isn't
as valued as mine, that's something that you need to
work out. But what we've decided is that all lives matter,

(28:32):
and it's just it's it's a dismissal. The genius and
the evil of of white privilege is that it keeps
people not understanding each other, It keeps people from not
being empathetic. So so while I'm struggling, white people have
no idea. I was explaining to one of my friends
the other day, like, just one of my white friends.

(28:55):
I love her, we talk all the time and we've
been friends for years, but we talked about beauty stingers,
and that's what I said, Yeah, you know, growing up,
there weren't people that looked like me in magazines, there
weren't people that look like me on TV screens, and
and when I did see someone that was black, sometimes
it was always the lighter skinned people. And and she
literally said, I never thought about that. She never once
thought about how her culture is represented through society, through

(29:19):
through media, through art, through images, through through anything, because
it's always there, and that standard always said, this is
the societal standard. This is what beauty looks like, this
is what being right looks like, this is what a
good life looks like, this is this is what it
looks like when you are this kind of person, And
that's the genius and the evil of privileges, that it

(29:41):
keeps an entire group of people completely disassociated from the
harmful and tragic realities of people of color. And so
we say black lives matter. People who say we no,
all lives matter. They don't understand what's happening on the
other side. Yeah. I saw an analogy on Instagram or somewhere,
and I know there's several analogies out there, but I'll

(30:02):
just paraphrase this one real quick. Talked about how if
your neighbor's house was on fire and your house was not,
and you went out to your porch and you saw
the firefighters putting out the fire at your neighbor's house,
but you were like, you excuse me, my house matters too,
And you're trying to get the firefighters to come into

(30:23):
your house that is not on fire right now. Yeah,
you would never do that. You could be like, oh wow, yeah,
that house matters in this situation. This house matters is
deeply rooted in and so much of what we do
in society and um and how we viewed the opportunities
that we're giving the access that we're granted. It's hard

(30:43):
because today systemic racism is everywhere, It's infiltrated everywhere, and
trying to explain that sometimes it's I think for me
at least, very challenging to some of my wife friends,
but always tell them there's Google, There's so many books.
We can absolutely have conversations, and sometimes those conversations look like, Hey,
what was it like for you growing up in this school?

(31:05):
I remember you told me that you grew up in
a place where your family was the only black family
in that neighborhood. What was that like? Just asking really
practical questions sometimes is really helpful. Just finding ways to
to be empathetic and to step outside of your shoes
and recognize that someone else has a life, someone else
doesn't feel like they are valued or that they matter,

(31:27):
They don't feel like there's always space made for them.
Stepping outside of yourself and recognizing that other people deserve
a turn, other people deserve equality, other people deserve fairness.
When a black person says they will pull when they
get pulled over, they fear for their life, that's not
something to overlook. No, I've had three weird encounteries when
I've been pulled over, and it's terrifying. I'm sitting here

(31:50):
listening to you, and I literally I've been pulled over
since I was sixteen. Well you know a good amount
of times. I have never once feared for my life.
I literally cannot relate to that at all whatsoever. So boom,
perfect example of privilege right there, without me ever even

(32:13):
thinking about it until right now as I'm talking with you,
all those times, that was my privilege. The fear I
didn't What I was scared was are you gonna how
am I going to pay the ticket? As my dad
gonna get mad at me? That was my fear. It
wasn't what's going to happen to me? Or am I
going to get hurt? Am I going to go to

(32:34):
jail for no reason? Am I going? And it's not
all Please hear me, Please, please listeners, hear this with
an open mind and a heart. We're giving examples. We're
not saying that all police are this way and every
circumstances this way. We're talking about the fear that people

(32:54):
have given. What has happened to others, and when you
I don't care if it's happened to one person or
five hundred people. If you're someone that knows it's happened
to someone because of their color your skin, and you
happen to have that color of skin, you're going to
be scared that it could happen to you. Absolutely. My
dad was a correction officer for I think almost twenty

(33:16):
five years before he retired, and my my personal awakening
to to to anything involving justice or social justice or
or really the fear of being black. For me, that
was when Trayvon Martin happened. And I went to my
dad and I asked some questions, and then I think
a few years later Mike Brown happened. I went back

(33:37):
to my dad, like, Dad, it was an officer of
this time, how do you feel? And we have we
had those conversations and he told me how he felt.
He told me how disgusted he was. He talked about
his perspective as as someone who retired working in law enforcement.
He talked from his perspective as a dad. All of
my my siblings, they all live maybe we all live
in different places. I'm the only one that lives in

(33:59):
Tennessee and I live the furthest away from home for me,
home is Baltimore, Maryland, which is a predominantly black city.
Moving to Tennessee scared the crap out of my family.
They asked me, why don't you move to Atlanta? And
I said, I don't want to go to Atlanta, Daddy.
I I write country music. I want to go to Nashville.
And he fears for me all the time. Every single
phone call, my dad tells me a few things. He

(34:21):
always says, uh, something like make sure you put your
seatbelt on or something like that, and then he he
goes on to like just give me like tips about
like if I'm if I'm ever in danger. My family
is terrified when I told them, When I told my
mom and sister that I was going to the protests
on Saturday, they were terrified. And the first thing they
said is you live in Tennessee. You live in the South.

(34:43):
That's a reality for my family. That is an absolute reality.
And I'm not an isolated incident. You didn't know any
of these things about me. We would never talked about it,
so you you didn't know that I was gonna bring
all this stuff up. So it's not a prepared thing
that this is a real thing for people that look
like me, and even if you haven't, even for people
who look like me, people who are black, people who

(35:04):
are brown, people who even if you haven't experienced an injustice,
you carry that fear because you always, we always feel
like people that look like us are targeted or that
was such an easy target to just to just disregard,
to not care about. We don't matter as much. We're
constantly just reminded of that. And now when we when

(35:25):
we talk about the media, well, the media for for
the for so many of us, the media is just
real people. It's a person with a camera phone who
just so happened to have their phone out at the
time something terrible was happening, or they intentionally caught something
on film that that's that's the for me as a millennial,
that's that's our news. A lot of times it's just
firsthand testimonies of saying, hey, I saw this crazy thing

(35:48):
that they look at this And when you see those images,
you don't see just George Floyd. You don't just see
a mad Aubrey. You see yourself, You see your children,
you see your family members, your friends, you see anybody
that's within close proximity to you. And you take that
burden and it's just traumatic and we walk around thinking

(36:10):
this could be my last day, something really terrible can happen.
I appreciate you opening up and sharing with me, with us,
and I just hope that others will take that time
and that we learn from this that we need to
take the time to hear people out and try to
understand and realize, yes, like this is what black life

(36:33):
matters is all about. And I think if you have
some real conversations with people like we are with Brittany
right now, you should You'll get it. I mean, it's
and you'll have to continue to learn, continue to follow
certain accounts on Instagram, maybe even unfollow. What books can

(36:55):
you download? What things can you be googling to read?
And I just feel like it's so important right now.
But since Brittany was on to just be about the
friend thing, I would say, gosh, it's just as simple
as reaching out to someone that's in your life that
you know may need to hear from you, and hear

(37:16):
you say hey, you matter, simple as that It's two words,
and actually hear them when they tell you why they
feel like they don't matter, not with defensiveness, not with
something that we heard while stuck in an algorithm, but
just truly here the testimonies of people that we say
we love and we care about. We can't love people

(37:39):
and then decide, well, I don't have to deal with
that part of you. We disagree. No, this this is
a really a very real thing. When someone is fearful
for their life, that's that's a very real thing. And
we can't disregard that. We were talking last night about
be the Change, because I had Stevenson right be the Change,
and we thought, well, this could look cute on a shirt.

(38:00):
Stashira did the Empowered Women's shirt with her handwriting and
she loved it, and I felt like Stevenson was a
little left out, and I thought, okay, buddy, step up
to the plate turn be the change. So he worked
so hard and his handwriting is so great, and he's
only nine years old, and you know, I wanted to
make sure and run by Brittany that the Shot Forward

(38:24):
was going to put up these shirts Be the Change
in different skin tones from dark to light, and we
just wanted to make sure that the messaging was okay,
our hearts are in the right place, and that we
knew it would be predominantly for for white people to
where I sent Brittany the very, very very cute shirt.

(38:46):
But you said, I love this. The colors work so
well together. The font really gives a beautiful meaning to
the message. It's childlike and innocent. Feels like the font
communicates that empathy and acceptance. It doesn't have to be
so complicated, and that was encouraging to hear. So I

(39:07):
love that you're putting so much thought into this. I
really do well. It's important. I know that a lot
of my listeners are white, and a lot of people
that shop at the Shop Forward or shop a Splat
are white, and I want them to join us in
this effort to be part of the change and to
be the change. And so yeah, we'll see you know

(39:27):
how it's received. But I think it could do well
and make make a big difference for those out there
that are on the front lines of this and have
been for a long long time. Yeah, And I just
appreciate you coming on to talk with us and and
singing at the beginning yea, thank you so much for
having me. I I really I love what you're doing.

(39:48):
I think it's um, I think it's bold. I'm just
I'm grateful that you're doing it. I'm grateful to know
somebody that is putting in the work and journeying through
because this is truly a journey. You know when we
talk about be the change, it really is a journey.
You don't just wake up and you change. It's just
constantly working at something until we hopefully get it right.

(40:09):
Even with Pimp and Joy and Empowered Women, we like
to create shirts that people can put on and it's
a conversation starter but also a reminder to the person
wearing it, Oh yeah, I need to be the change.
Who can I reach out to today? Who can I
say hi to today? Who can I check on today?
What can I read today to educate myself? What can

(40:30):
I post today to encourage others? Can I talk to
some of my other white friends today when I'm wearing
this shirt? Is another white friend going to ask me
what's that shirt about? And then yeah, that will give
me an opportunity to talk to them about what's been
going on in the news lately. Like that's what we
hope to be the changes is for. So can you
tell people, brittany where they can find your your music? Yes,

(40:54):
you guys, get fun. All my little songs on Spotify
and all the iTunes and apples, all those things. My
name is Brittany b R I T T n e
Y Spencer, sp E and c E R. That's on everything. Yeah,
she's at Britney Spencer on Instagram. But then yeah, to

(41:15):
find her music. She's there, so at least follower, and
then you'll start seeing some of the music stuff she
posts and you'll be like, Okay, okay, I get it.
She's a star. You too, kind Nay, thank you so much.
I'll see you very soon, all right, see you Okay.
Dr Tatum super excited to have you here with us

(41:38):
for this important time and conversation. And with that, a
conversation seems to be something that is a word I
have over and over of I need to be having
conversations with my kids. I need to be having conversations
with my friends. So I would like to hear from
you how do we start these conversations. When white people

(41:59):
are talking into their white friends, often it is not
a topic they're talking about very much on except when
something like what's happening right now? You know they've seen
George Floyd's murder on the news. Um the protests are happening.
It's hard not to be talking about these questions. What

(42:19):
I find is that many of my white students over
the years in the places where I've taught, and many
of the people who come to my workshops, have lived
a long time without much practice at having these conversations,
and so when they do want to have the conversations,
it feels very awkward, in part because they've grown up thinking,

(42:41):
I'm not supposed to mention race, I'm not supposed to
notice race, and so it almost feels like you're breaking
a societal Will you tell me that? That's how they
sometimes feel, and they worry very much that they might
say or do the wrong thing, that it might be
perceived by someone else as saying something racially prejudiced, or

(43:04):
you know, they might just make some mistakes that cause
awkwardness and a conversation. That's especially true if they're talking
to a person of color, but even if it's a
white person talking to another white person, there maybe fear
about that. But it's not hard to start a conversation
just simply say I've been watching the news. It's very
upsetting to me. I wonder how you feel about what

(43:25):
you're saying. Kids things are going to be different depending
on their age and what information they can handle. But
I could see how, yeah, that could be an easy
way to just see where someone is and their thoughts
and then breaking that what we were raised with, which
is the silence. I think you're right, you know, when
we have we're told so long, you know, just be

(43:46):
kind to people, don't have hate in your heart, don't
see color. People meant well. But actually that's what we
need to unlearn. Yes, I sometimes use as an example
a conversation with a preschool Let's imagine there's a white
parent with a white child, and they're in a grocery store,
and maybe they live in a largely white community, so

(44:08):
it's unusual to encounter a person of color. And so
let's imagine this three year old is in the grocery
store with mom and spots a dark skinned person. That
child might out of curiosity, saying, Mom, look at that person,
why is their skin so dark? And you can imagine

(44:29):
that that mom or dad might be embarrassed in that moment,
and the response might be to say, you know, and
not to answer the question, but simply to silence the
child in what feels like an awkward moment, But the
message to the child is we're not supposed to notice,
We're not supposed to talk about this. There's something wrong

(44:49):
with what I just said. We could imagine a different
kind of scenario, same scenario, but a different kind of response,
where maybe the parent would say, oh, because people come
in different colors, just like people have different hair color
or eye color, they have different skin color and move on.
It doesn't have to be a big deal. But there's
so much historical reluctance to it because of the legacy

(45:13):
of racism in our society. It feels like a very
toxic subject, and many people respond they're simply trying to
hush the conversation rather than engage it. I've been consuming
so much information lately, just trying to take in as
much as I can, because I've realized, Okay, I have
a platform, but even if you don't have a platform,
you still need to speak up. You're using your platform,

(45:37):
and it's a wonderful thing that you are. But to
your listeners, everybody has a platform of some kind. We
all have a sphere of influence, and so some people's
sphere is very big. Some it's more, you know, it's
smaller but we all influence other people, and each of
us can think about how am I using my sphere

(45:58):
of influence to about change, What are the next steps
on where we can go from here? If people are
wanting to do more, well, especially for listeners who feel
like they don't know enough, certainly, working to educate yourself
is an important first step. And as you said, there
are lots of resources, many more today than they were

(46:20):
in the past, good books that people can read, articles
things online, social justice education websites, books multicultural and books
that are really useful to read with kids. As you said,
parents are often busy, but even busy parents sometimes will
sit down and read a book with a young child,

(46:40):
and there are lots of them that are really helpful.
And if people are wondering, well, how would I know
which ones are good? There's a great website called social
Justice Books dot org which can give you lots of
good suggestions educating oneself. Unfortunately, many people don't really have
a good knowledge base about the history of racing him
in our society. We of course all have heard about slavery,

(47:04):
but if we if that's all we know, we're missing
a lot of information. And so even contemporary there's some
great books about current events. One of my favorites that
I'm recommending right now is not only mine, but How
to be an Anti Racist by Abraham Candy. It's a
great one. Or another one is White Fragility by Rob D'Angelo.

(47:25):
But these are places where people can start to think
about what have my own experience has been, and how
have they shaped how I view the world and what
can I do differently. Gathering with other people to have
those conversations can be really helpful. And someone might say, well,
I live in an all white community, you know, I
want to talk to people of color. Well, if there's

(47:46):
value and that, of course, but let's not minimize the
benefit that comes from talking to other white people who
are helping to educate each other in this journey. Well,
I just appreciate you taking the time to come on
with me so much. When I heard you're going to
join us, I was like, oh really, And I even
message some friends that I knew were reading your book

(48:07):
and they were geeking out. So it's pretty cool to
have you on. So I just thank for Yeah, I
appreciate it, and I hope you have a good rest
of your day. I'm sure you're very busy right now.
That's indeed, well, thank you for your for your courage,
Thank you so much for all you do. Right Okay,

(48:32):
before I get into the fourth thing, which is going
to be some self care tips or ways for you
to be mindful about creating space and relaxing so that
you're not all emotionally frazzled, because then you're not going
to be able to handle everything that's happening in the
world and all this new information that you might be

(48:52):
taking in. And I just wanna say that it's not
lost on me that the first three things, some of
the things that were said may sit well with some
of you, and that's okay. I'm open to hear what
you have to say. We're open to discussion and conversation,
and you can feel free to reach out to my pastor.

(49:12):
He's super amazing, very smart and kind. On Instagram, he's
at Matt Smallbone. And then my friend Brittany, she's at
Brittney Spencer. I hope you follow her. If you've got
questions for her, you can ask, you can check out
some of her music. And then with Dr Beverly Tatum,
she's not on Instagram to my knowledge, but she has

(49:34):
so many great resources. Start with her ted x talk
that's free on YouTube, or go ahead and download her book.
But she is super knowledgeable, and again, depending on where
you are in your journey, today's episode may or may
not have been a lot of information. I don't know,
and you may be asking yourself, Okay, well what can
I do? I don't know where to start, but I

(49:56):
do feel like each person today shared some good ways
for you to start. Also, I know with Brittany, I
brought up the Be the Change shirts, and at the
time that I recorded with her, I didn't know a
lot of the info for those of like what exactly
we were doing, what we were going to make. Again,
I feel like everyone's just been trying to figure out

(50:18):
and be super thoughtful about it and not rush things along.
But we're finally ready. The Shot Forward launched what the
plan is and Stevenson did the artwork for these Be
the Change shirts. But that's not the only shirt option available.
There's also you Are Worthy and the ink On those
there's multiple colors that range from dark dark brown to

(50:43):
pale pale pink, representing all the different skin tones. So
there's be the Change, you Are Worthy, and then these
super cute white ones with tight I like letters that
say love one another. And we've got stuff for adults
and kids, and the Shot Forward even has some love
is Greater than Hate stuff and it's all part of

(51:03):
the Shot Forward ally Fund, and all proceeds from each
item are going to organizations that are fighting racial injustice
in all forms. So that might be a place where
you can begin, where you can buy a shirt that
you can put on every day and be a reminder
to yourself of how you want to be and what

(51:25):
you need to do to contribute to what's happening right now.
But you don't have to do that, that's just an option.
I just want y'all to go check it out these
shot Forward dot com and then you can click on
the Ally Fund. It's right next to Father's Day and
flick on ally Fund. And I'm so proud of Stevenson.
His little handwriting is so cute. He did such a

(51:46):
great job. So that is one way you can help,
but there are tons of other ways that cost no money,
where you can be the change. So my friend Lisa,
who I did the Outweigh series with here on the
podcast about disorderedy, she is at the Wall Necessities on Instagram,
and she sends out a newsletter to her fork the

(52:06):
Noise community about every week and it's always full of
great information. I love her news letters. They're amazing and
thorough and she's so careful with her words. It's one
thing I appreciate about her so much. And at the
end of the newsletter she had she had this written
in all caps. We cannot be both our best selves

(52:27):
and emotionally frazzled at the same time. So she urged us, please,
in the midst of everything that's going on in the world,
do not forget to make time and space for you.
She reminded us that it's not selfish and it's how
we will win. And then she concluded with some mindfulness
tips that you can take into account during this time,

(52:49):
and for me, I want to share them with you
as you roll into the weekend, just to make sure
you take some time for self care. So this is
what Lisa put Get outside, go for a walk or run,
whatever it is that allows your body to connect with nature.
Be intentional with media, allow yourself a certain amount of
screen time, and consume media from voices you do not

(53:09):
necessarily always agree with allow for time to decompress, consume
mindless television that isn't the news. That's where I would
suggest maybe Billions or Real Housewives of Orange County, of
Beverly Hills of New York, something like that makes But
this is me talking, by the way, not least as email.

(53:31):
Now I'm back to the email. Make space for joy, yes, joy,
because joyful activities purely for you will allow your brain
to better process the realities. Breathe Notice when your breath
gets short, and carve out a few minutes of the
day to focus on long, drawn out breaths. This regulates
the central nervous system. Body scan scan your body for tension.

(53:52):
Now is a good time to maybe check your shoulders,
bring them up to your ears and then let them drop,
and then let your stomach on clinch and take up
some space. Shake out your hands, your feet, your arms,
your legs, even your jaw. Put down the phone, leave
it behind. If you're doing household chores, or you're eating meals,
or while you're out in nature. See if you can

(54:13):
mono task. You can just focus on that one thing
without being distracted by your phone. Your mornings matter, So
the first thing you do in the morning matters. If
you can avoid the news, the email, the phone, all
the noise, please do this. This can look like lying
in bed for five extra minutes just staring at the
ceiling and then have good bedtime hygiene. What we do

(54:33):
in the hours leading up to bed really plays a
role in the quality of our sleep. Avoid the cell
phone as much as you can. Try a gratitude journal
or just a blank journal in general, or a fiction book.
So if you listen to the podcasts for a while,
you know that we have a four Things gratitude journal,
which is really easy and a great thing to do
before bed. But you don't even have to have our

(54:54):
journal to do it. But if you want one, those
are available. But if you get a blank journal, you
could just if you're intimidated by it, just start with
four things, just like we do in ours radio. Amy
dot com is where you can find that stuff, but
it means also up on the shop forward as well
if you're there for be the Change stuff. And again,
all the proceeds from the Ally Fund are going directly

(55:16):
to organizations that are fighting the racial injustice, like the
Conscious Kid, Be the Bridge, George Floyd Memorial Fund in
Double A cp Legal Defense Fund and the Loveland Foundation.
I'll just leave you with this quote from Angela Davis.
It is not enough to be non racist. We must

(55:37):
be anti racist. And let's all just be open to
continuing to be willing to to listen, to learn, and
stand up against systemic racism because we need to be
the change

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Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News

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