Welcome to the '5th Thing' with Amy & Kat!! Today’s quote is from Taylor Swift’s song Anti-Hero: “It’s me. Hi. I’m the problem, it's me.” Amy has been singing that song a lot lately and is obsessed with the video. This led to a conversation between Amy, Kat, and Amy’s BFF from high school, Andrea. This episode is recorded from Amy’s hotel room in Kansas just hours before her first LIVE podcast show (that will air this coming Thursday for those of you that weren’t able to be in the audience!) Kat also shares with Amy the crazy dream that she had about the live show and Andrea shared some insight from God, yes God!!! Love this chat from the bed of Amy’s hotel room…hope you do too!
Thank you licensed therapist, Kat Defatta, for joining us with her wisdom. You can find her on Instagram: @Kat.Defatta + @YouNeedTherapyPodcast.
Best places to find more about Amy: RadioAmy.com + @RadioAmy
Send emails for the '5th Thing' to 4ThingsWithAmyBrown@gmail.com!
To see ‘4 Things’ swag: 4things.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Happy Tuesday, and welcome to the Fifth Thing. I'm Amy
and I'm Cat and today's quote comes to us from
Taylor Swift. It's me, Hi, I'm the problem. It's me.
I don't know have you been listening to her anti
Hero song at all? So I just listened to it
five minutes ago. Oh really, Yeah. I saw on TikTok
(00:27):
everybody posting those videos of them being like it's me
and doing the whatever, and I was like, oh, that's funny.
I didn't know as Tylor Swift until like a day ago,
and I was like, oh, no, I mean it's from
her song. And yes, it's been a very popular thing
to post, like a funny little video too. But also
it's been in the news because in the video, the
anti Hero video, which I don't watch music videos anymore,
(00:49):
but I watched that one and it's such a good video.
I'm a big Taylor Swift fan. My friend Andrea is
also here with us, MyD FF from high school. Say
what up? Hi, what's up? Hello. We're sitting in my
hotel room in which it all and I think I've
watched the Taylor Swift video twice today already, because we're
(01:10):
in which it all for the first ever live taping
of the Four Things podcast, which you'll hear that episode.
It will go up this Thursday. That will be this
Thursday's Four Things. And I feel like, as I go
into this evening, because we're gonna be doing it tonight,
it's all going down. I have so many different feelings
and emotions and things going on, and I'm gonna be
(01:30):
sharing some stuff on stage that I haven't talked about before.
And some people are used to the podcast and they
know what to expect and they've been here before. Others
might be coming with a friend and they have no
idea what four Things is or about. And I feel
like I'm gonna be on stage like it's me. Hi,
I'm the problem. It's me. So I've been listening to
(01:51):
that to Pump Me Up, an anti hero song to
pump I know it sounds weird, but I've also been
I've watched a couple of Lizzo videos and consense. Yeah,
so minute, I'm annita a woman to pump me up.
So back to the Taylor Swift video though, too. And
in a conversation that's being had around that, which Cat,
(02:12):
I'm very curious your thoughts on this. I know inside
the video she originally had a scene where she's getting
on a scale and the scale read fat. Now that
was her own experience with the scale and her body
dysmorphia and her thing, and I know people made a
whole fuss about it, so she removed it from the video. Right,
(02:33):
Why are you shaking your head? She shouldn't have removed it. Yeah.
I have a lot of feelings on this, and I
want to say them carefully because I understand the sentiment
of this is a word that we're trying to neutralize,
and we don't want to be spreading that fat is
bad and all that. But what I think, I don't
(02:53):
know Taylor, you don't. I don't know where our friends
with her. I met her when I was sixteen, but
that's really it. And then thinks she remembers me, but
she might ve me. Andrea actually being here for this
conversation is very fitting because one time Andrew and I
were going to a Taylor Swift concert and I had
(03:16):
painted a portrait of Taylor for Taylor, and we won't
get into details about how I forgot the tickets at
home Andrea had to go get him. Last I guess
I'll go get him. And I was like, yeah, you
have to go get them because this is my time
to meet Taylor Swift. And I met Taylor and I
gave her the painting and I said, it's me. I
(03:40):
painted of you. I took art lessons for six weeks.
It was a whole bit on the Bobby Bones Show
to paint that and then presented to Taylor like I
was a psychotic fan. I bet she has it, which
I was, well, yeah, speaking of you, thinking maybe she
remembers you at sixteen, I am thinking to this podcast
at probably, hey Ta, she probably has the portrait of
(04:04):
her hanging in her house. What if in the music video?
And that's I did that. So back to the video
and the scale and the fat and whatnot. Okay, So
what I believe was happening. My interpretation of the video,
granted I didn't get to watch it before it was
removed because I just watched the whole video was she
(04:26):
was giving a picture. She was telling her story of
her inner critic, and I could be off, but it
felt like her inner critic that was also speaking from
the feedback she was getting from being in the spotlight
and being this person that everybody has to make a
comment about everybody has opinion about, and nothing is ever
good enough. And so when she's getting on the scale
(04:48):
and she sees fat, she's saying that felt bad to
me based on my experiences in the world. She wasn't
saying you shouldn't be fat, and this and that whenever,
she wasn't saying any of that. It was her story.
And I feel like by taking that out and by
telling her she can't talk about what it was like
to be her and for her not to want to
be that word, it's not letting her actually be authentic
(05:10):
and true. And I think that's a huge problem that
we're facing everywhere. Because I'm saying this with a lot
of empathy, because I know how hard it is to
be triggered by things. But when we get into the world,
the real world, when there's all kinds of different people
who don't actually care about our own personal stories, right,
(05:31):
we have to remember that it's our job to learn
how to cope with triggers and things we don't like
and things we don't like hearing or people saying. Our
job is not to then go fix all those people
and make sure that they say things that don't hurt us.
It's hey, what do I need to know that I
might need to make a boundary around or how do
I cope with something that doesn't feel good when I
(05:52):
see it or feel it? And I know a lot
of therapists were the ones saying this needs to be
out of there, and I kind of get what they're saying.
But when I have a client coming in saying I
saw this video and it said this on the scale,
blah bla bla bla, blah blah blah, all the things,
I'm not going to say, Hey, you should text Taylor
and tell her to take that out. Well, can I
interject and say why they might be saying that? Is
(06:13):
like an example of that might be, and specifically my
head might be, Wow, if Taylor's on the scale right
now and seeing fat and I don't look anything like her,
I must be fat, right, So that's how we're taking
things personally. When she's telling her story. I don't know
what her story is when it comes to this, but
if she has body dysmorphia, I can't be you can't
(06:35):
say that because what if other people that look different
than you, like I really felt that as a as
a as a woman within privilege, like you're not allowed
to have any body image issues because you are thin,
And I understand that, and I understand how that's hurtful.
And when we become people who are more outspoken about
that stuff, sometimes it's we have to stay in our
(06:56):
lane at the same time, like you did struggle or
you do ago or I don't know, bodies morphia was
a thing for you, and body image is allowed to
still be a thing for you. And that's where I
think we're telling other people that it's the world's job
to take care of us versus it's our job to
take care of us. Right. So if I have that thought, wow,
Taylor saying fat, I don't know, I'm triggered and I
(07:18):
feel fat, that's for me to work through, not for
Taylor to take out of her video, right, Because then
if that's if, if if we live in the world
where like everybody has to take these things out of
their videos, we're going to live in like a white
box because things are triggers to you and you that
aren't triggers to me and vice versa. And if we're
going around being like, let's make sure nobody has ever
triggered we won't be able to do anything. Versus, let's
(07:41):
learn about ourselves. Let's see what triggers us, why those
things trigger us, and do the work on ourselves so
then we can go experience the world and get to
enjoy it and other people get to enjoy the world too. Yeah,
and you know, let's be more resilient. Yes, that's good word, Andrea, resilient.
You know what a therapist I was with this weekend
on a on a trip kept saying, and I really
(08:03):
believe it's in It's like hard to hear, but it's
also true, is the world doesn't care about your recovery.
And that's like any kind of recovery, Like the world
doesn't care. So when we leave, specifically when we go
to a treatment center, let's say I used to work
in a treatment center. So I had these people in
a bubble and it was awesome and we could tell
people in group. We don't say this word at dinner,
we don't say these things at lunch, we don't say
these things. But when you get out in the world,
(08:25):
not everybody is going to be abiding by those rules
that people have to abide by and treatment, and so
we have to kind of build resiliency with people, and
it's not never be triggered, it's what are you gonna
do when it happens. And so we have to kind
(08:49):
of build resiliency with people and it's not never be triggered,
it's what are you gonna do when it happens. Yeah,
I love that a lot, but I think when you
are in the early stages of your recovery. We've talked
about this before, the pendulum can swing, like some parts
of me had to swing so far to the other
side of things to where yeah, I was super sensitive
and I was triggered, and I wanted everybody to see
(09:11):
things the way that I was because that's what I needed.
But as I've been in recovery, the pendulum starts to
balance itself out and I have room for all the
different things. But I also have the tools to work
on myself and know that this is my thing and
I don't need to make it about everybody else, because yeah,
they don't have the same experiences as me, and they
don't have the responsibility, and they should be able to
(09:33):
share what they've been through or whatever they want to say.
And it makes me think too of times on the
podcast where I'm very cautious about making sure that everybody
feels safe when they're listening. My sister brought up a
story one time when she was on which my sisters
here in which at all right now too. But she's
in her hotel room with my niece Adeline. I guess
they're having She said, they're having a cozy morning with
coffee and and room service. But she'll be on Thursday's
(09:55):
episode you'll here then. But she brought up some study
that was on about like smiling and just the act
of smiling can then make you feel happier or can
kind of be a mood shift. And I'm paraphrasing that,
but when she said it, I thought, oh, but you know,
we're not saying that you just have to smile your
way through things and that'll make it okay, and just
(10:18):
if you're really struggling, just smile. Like I felt like
I had to add that immediately because I didn't want
someone to think that we were implying like I was
just immediately hesitant to like the toxic positivity and all
the different things. But I do think there is a
time for for smiling, even if you know that's not
necessarily what you want to do, and maybe there is
something to tricking your brain in a way. And I
(10:40):
do think there's something to choosing joy sometimes even when
it's hard, but also feeling all the other feelings that
come along with it. That's just something that popped in
my head just now that I'm very cautious because of
all that's been outspoken about toxic positivity. It's hard for
me as a therapist. I'm like, positive psychology is a thing,
like that's like, so we can't say that, but toxic
(11:01):
positivity is not being optimistic. Like those things are very different.
But that's the world we're living in right where like
you never want to say something that's going to offend
somebody or somebody's gonna take the wrong way because so
many people now we're being more empathetic and that's great,
but we don't want our empathy to turn into like
silencing ourselves. And I don't know if I sent this
to you or we talked about it. I had to
(11:23):
be interested in both of y'all's thoughts on this. But
I saw this clip from a podcast where somebody asked
Jay Shetty, do you know who that is? He has
a podcast, He's great. I sent a lot of videos.
You know him, You just don't know that. Yeah. He
he was on your podcast, right, No, that'd be cool
if he was number one mental health podcast in the
world and oh, I get it now you want to
(11:44):
have him? Yeah, that was great. If you're listening Jay,
you need therapy podcast. Anyway, he was on somebody else's
show and they said, what is one thing that you
that other people value that you don't value? And in
my head, I was like, he's gonna say, like money
or clothes, but he said being understood, and then he
went on to talk about it and he said, like,
(12:05):
no matter what I do, there's going to be somebody
that doesn't get what I'm saying, takes it the wrong way,
what have you. And so I can't spend my life
trying to make sure everybody understands me. I just have
to actually accept that some people are going to get
it and some people aren't, and I have to learn
how to cope with that. So that's kind of what
you're saying, is like people are going to listen to
your podcast and be like, she's being toxic, But that
(12:26):
doesn't necessarily mean that you are right. Thank you for
that and also, just like you just said in your recovery,
your pendulum swing really far to one side. Well, our
world right now is experiencing that, especially after you know
everything that we've gone through the last three years. Our
pendulum is all the way over here, and nobody wants
to say and anything that's going to hurt anybody else's feelings.
(12:49):
And at some point we just have to continue to
be authentic and know that your intentions are good. I
hope and trust that people have good intentions because he
has to understand what I'm trying to say and don't
have to defend it all day long or try to
get them to understand No, that's not your job, right, Okay,
it's not your job, Taylor. Hopefully that can be very
freeing for a lot of people listening right now, and
(13:11):
whatever category this falls in, because for somebody else it
might be, you know, a completely different subject, like Andrew sing.
In today's world, there's a lot of different things, and
we're swinging so far left or so far right and
nothing's leveling out. What does it mean that we're open
to feedback? Right? So I might that's like in sense
and I'm like, oh shoot, I didn't actually think about that.
(13:32):
But I want this is for everybody, like take feedback openly,
but also like question the feedback to not everything you
get has to be truth, just like we need to
fact check the information we're getting everywhere about mental health,
Like it's the same thing as we need to actually
keep using our brains. Yeah, so you might be coming
(13:55):
to The Four Things live or hearing the episode on
Thursday and you might understand it. We don't care, but
that's okay. I'm with an open mind because but I
am excited. It's going to be a special evening and
a lot of work, like a lot, a lot of
work has gone into it and so many people coming
together to make it possible. But I am I'm excited
(14:18):
about unpacking what it looks like to really live your
life because that's like the first thing, and it was
inspired by younger me, probably seven or eight year old
me when watching that video. I even remember making it
in my laundry room because we've got the footage and
we're gonna play it, and I remember being that girl,
and that was before my dad had left. So part
(14:41):
of what we're gonna get into and the first thing
is some things that have happened in my life recently
that have woken me up. But I wonder when I
started to sort of fall asleep, and when I watched
that girl in that video, it's like I don't even
really know her. It was part of me that was
more curious and creative and outgoing. I mean, but that
was before some of my light got dimmed or my candle,
(15:05):
like a few of my candles got blown out. Because
I mean, everybody has their different experience throughout life. But
my dad leaving at nine years old was probably my
first traumatic experience. So that was my first big tea.
So I probably had some little teas here and there,
bumped my head a few times, because you know, your
brain doesn't your brain, Yeah, your brain doesn't know the
(15:27):
difference between emotional and physical trauma. So that's why I
bring up the little bumps here and there, because who
knows what that's doing to my brain. But then the big,
first big emotional thing that happened to me was that
at nine years old. So going back and watching me
talk about life in this way, me thinking my life
is so amazing and if you think yours isn't, the
(15:49):
look at mine, it's so good, Like that's what that's
what young me was saying. That's what the video. You'll
see it tonight when we when we do the taping.
But I watched that and I'm like, Okay, now I'm
waking up again and I'm curious about life and i
want to get back to that little girl that thought
my life was so amazing, and so that's what I'm
(16:11):
in the process of doing. But I'm unpacking what that
is like, and we're going to walk through some of
that tonight again you'll get to hear it on Thursday.
But it's interesting how we have different versions of ourselves
depending on different experiences that will show up at different
times in our life. And so why are you sil
Because I had a thought, but I want to save
(16:32):
it for the show. Well what is it? I can't
tell you now because you wanted to be a surprise
for me on stage. Yeah okay, Well, I just know
I have a thought that goes along with that, but
I want to save it so people listen to the
or by Well guess you can't buy a ticket, but
listen to show on Thursday. Yeah okay, but also smiling
because I had a dream about the show. Oh, what
was your dream by the way, Oh what was your dream?
(17:04):
By the way. I thought about telling you this when
I got on stage, but then I was like, no,
I can't. We just gotta keep it rolling. So I
lately haven't. I don't know if you guys dream a lot,
but I usually don't. But lately I've been having these
like vivid dreams, but usually are about things upcoming in
my life. I think I'm under some stress or something. Anyway,
So in my dream, we're going to do like a
(17:27):
run through. But the run through is just like you
be here at this point, then you walk up here,
then you do this. It's just like the dad, da dad.
You don't have to say anything. So we're sitting at
the people that are going to be on this show.
We're like sitting at this picnic table. And then when
it's my turn to go on the stage, Vossio comes
and gets me and she brings me over and I
(17:47):
walk on the stage and I see you and I
sit down and we start talking and we start talking
about like, oh, which any of you guys listening, you
probably know this all the time. Amy and are like,
we're gonna do a fifteen minute eisode and it'll be
forty five minutes, and we never actually talked about what
we actually were there to talk about. So I was like, hello,
l like, what if we do that? And anyway, So
(18:08):
we just start talking. But it's keep in mind, this
is not the show. This is a run through. So
we're just like talking and bantering, and then all of
a sudden you look at me and you're like, okay,
well we have to get to the show. And I
was like, oh, I thought this is a run through,
like you, we had to get to the topics and
to like, no, like go say your part, and I
froze and I was like, well, I'm not prepared. I
(18:29):
don't have my note cards, I don't have anything. So
I froze. So Fasio, everybody is mad at me at
this point, and all of a sudden, people appeared in
the in the seats. When I walked up there there's
nobody out there in my dream. All of a sudden,
there's like six d people in front of me. So
Fasio brings out like these random people from the audience
and sits them in front of me, and I was like,
(18:50):
can you guys start talking because she's ruining the show,
and they okay, well, I can care, and what's happening.
We're freaking out. We're really upset with me. But at
the same time, you didn't want anybody to know that
you're upset, so you're like, oh, Katherine, she's so silly,
and then get off the stage. Christy get on the
(19:10):
stage and was like, man, oh you got replaced by
my sister. Well, okay, let me say this. I think
that you, Yeah, you just have some nerves and some
fear around tonight and how it's going to go. And
I think that that's normal, because speaking on a stage
in front of a lot of people is not what
it is something that you do, so and I mean
it is something that I do, and I'm still nervous
because I've also never done a night like this before,
(19:32):
like some people or like, surely you've done something like
this before. Yes, I have been on stage in front
of thousands and thousands of people, maybe you know bringing
an artist on stage real quick, or about you had
other events before, But they've there's been other moving parts
of their components, Like I wasn't in charge of the
whole shebang and the flow of the night in the
run of the show and all the content and all
(19:52):
the things, and it's you know, live with people staring
at you when we're recording this podcast sometimes where we
get to be like Houston, edit that out, you know,
and Houston is actually here, which is crazy. We met
him for the first time in person and it's really cool,
and so who knows, maybe on stage night we will
be like we're Houston. Don't put this in, but I
(20:15):
will say nerves are good, and I think it means
something that is important. And I know you were saying
something about mel Robbins talking about nerves, but before you
share that, I want to say this too about if
something goes wrong. I already know I have the mindset
because we had a little hiccup last night with some
of the stuff. For there's a lot of visual things,
(20:36):
and there was a video hiccup and it's a crucial
part of the show. And I love that I was
able to sit there and Fausio was freaking out because
it was a mistake on her end, and I could
tell she was not happy with herself. And I looked
at her and I said, Fasio, if we end up
not having that video, what does this make possible? Right?
(20:58):
Because Donald Miller taught us that saying, and it's like, okay,
we just pivot. There's no point getting mad about it.
But she's just she's been an other events aforeward. It's
like if someone messes up, it's, you know, chop your
head off. Like this is when I taught every single
day it was okay, technology is not working, so you
just you have to make go. You gotta go with
the flow, Whelst. My kindergarteners are gonna catch me on fire. Yes,
(21:23):
And so you know, whatever career you have, whatever you
have going on in your life, like something might not
work out the way you had planned it. So if
Cat you are a total failure tonight and you bomb,
I am just gonna look at you and say, hey,
you're having the day you need to have, And what
(21:44):
does this make possible? And right now it makes possible
that my sister needs to come to the stage, so
please go and and we're gonna be fine. I would
not be mad at you for it. And I love
that I've had time to to practice that that motto
that's saying ever since Donald was on and just I
try to look at that in all things in life
(22:06):
now and it really is a healthy perspective to have,
and so that is how we will approach tonight. What
does this make possible? So what was the real quick
before we wrapped the What does mel Robins say about
being nervous? So she this was years ago. I saw
this and it has stuck with me. Where she said,
when you are nervous and you're excited, it's the same
(22:26):
experience in your body. You're just telling yourself a different story.
So you can tell yourself the story that I'm really
excited about this, or you can tell yourself the story
that I'm really nervous about this, and you can let
either of them lead, and I'm going to choose to
lead with excitement. I will say, there's a part of
me that has always believed that like for this works
(22:47):
for me specifically, But I'd rather admit that, like, hey,
I don't have it all together then try to pretend
like I have it all together, because when I have
to pretend like how it all together, I'm nervous and
then I'm pretending versus I just get to be myself
and like I'm a therapist, not a public speaker. And
you said so long ago, and that's why I'm like
I would do this with you, but I don't know
who else I would do this with. When I met
(23:08):
something up on a podcast, it was my own. I
was so upset about it. I think I deleted something
or something. And you said, honestly, when that stuff happens,
I tell myself that that didn't need to air, or
they didn't need to hear that, or I can say
it better later. So you kind of were like Donald
Miller before you met Donald Miller, I was so ahead
of the curves. But that makes me think it's something
(23:29):
that our friend Lisa Hayne posted the other day. I guess, Andrea,
I don't know if you've noticed this on Instagram, but
I guess there was some weird algorithm thing that happened
where people were losing followers. Yes, it was so weird.
So Lisa noticed it too, and she said that she noticed.
I don't know, Andrew, did you lose something? Guys? Wait,
(23:50):
because Andrea was a teacher and her she used to
guide teaches, but now she makes these wreaths. You've retired
from the sinny wreaths and there they are so so beautiful,
like you are so talented and it's so fun and
(24:11):
we're getting into the holidays. So what is your Tanner's
bride wreaths? Tanners doesn't bride reaths. And seriously, just go
even if like they're just go look at them because
they will make you smile. And then if you end
up wanting to buy one, that would be great because
I know you work really hard on those and you
go to all these We go to a lot of states,
(24:33):
spend a lot of money driving, but oh hey, it's
amazing though it lives on. Yeah, they're little treasures. I
will say when I'm super nervous or uncomfortable or excited,
it usually means gross about to happen. That's what I
tell my kids to It usually means I'm stepping into
(24:55):
this path that's a little unknown, and I'm going to
grow and change. Love that. And speaking of like growing,
I read that in the Bible changes. I don't God
God quote me. I do think I heard it in
church the one time that I don't well back to
(25:18):
the the path is narrow, you feel like who said that?
She's like God said it, mic drop God he told
me in my Drian. Okay, so the the Lisa thing? Um,
where why did I bring up your Instagram? Oh? Yes,
the Lisa was talking about it on on Instagram and
(25:42):
losing followers and that she wanted every just remind everybody
that that is okay, and she said, I too have
been affected by it. But what I am in the
season of right now is knowing that people that need
to find find me will find me and her content
(26:03):
that she's putting out there, and her and Lisa was
huge and a huge part of my eating disort of
recovery and her fork the noise course, and I found
her on Instagram, so she's not wrong, Like I'm thankful
I found her and others will find her and a
lot of her. A lot of people rely on social
media for getting stuff out there, but it's not the
only way that people are going to find you. And
(26:23):
then also if they've left you, they didn't need whatever
you're putting out anyway, and if they need to find
their way back to you, they will, and it'll it'll
work out. So good, so good great. I don't know
how many followers I had, so I don't think I
don't have that many, so I it's obvious to me
when that happens. I think something happened where they hundreds
(26:45):
were gone and then the next day they all were back.
It was something weird, what's happening? But one of my
friends said they were trying to get rid of bots,
which I think is good because the whole buying followers.
It's weird. It is weird. Well, I hope wherever you
are right now, you are having the day that you
need to have and that you definitely, definitely, definitely download
(27:06):
this coming Thursday's episode, make sure you listen to it.
We can promise you this. It is going to be fun.
At least we're tricking people into thinking it's gonna be fun.
I think it's it's going to be great. In going
through the run of show. You're gonna help a lot
(27:26):
of people. This is what you all do. You help
a lot of people out. Well, there's gonna be a
roller coaster. I have tried to bring in the fun
with some levity and some humor, but I mean, I'm
no comedian. This is just stuff that has come to
me that I think will be a lighter moment personality.
Then there will be like some more vulnerable, heavy moments
(27:47):
coming from myself and others that are sharing. So you know,
I think it'll be all the things, all the Things.
It's gonna be a great Saturday night, that's right. It's
going to be that's right. So we're gonna go, speaking
of gotta go get ready for that. But thank you
all for checking out this fifth Thing. You can find
Cat on Instagram, cat at cat dot Defata and my
(28:10):
podcast Instagram at You Need Therapy podcast Boom I am
at Radio Amy, and we'll see y'all on Thursday for
the first ever Four Things live taping that was taped
and now being re streamed for you. We taped it
on podcast that is finally airing for you. All right bye,
Happy Tuesday, and welcome to the Fifth Thing. I'm Amy
and I'm Cat and today's quote comes to us from
Taylor Swift. It's me, Hi, I'm the problem. It's me.
I don't know have you been listening to her anti
Hero song at all? So I just listened to it
five minutes ago. Oh really, Yeah. I saw on TikTok
(00:27):
everybody posting those videos of them being like it's me
and doing the whatever, and I was like, oh, that's funny.
I didn't know as Tylor Swift until like a day ago,
and I was like, oh, no, I mean it's from
her song. And yes, it's been a very popular thing
to post, like a funny little video too. But also
it's been in the news because in the video, the
anti Hero video, which I don't watch music videos anymore,
(00:49):
but I watched that one and it's such a good video.
I'm a big Taylor Swift fan. My friend Andrea is
also here with us, MyD FF from high school. Say
what up? Hi, what's up? Hello. We're sitting in my
hotel room in which it all and I think I've
watched the Taylor Swift video twice today already, because we're
(01:10):
in which it all for the first ever live taping
of the Four Things podcast, which you'll hear that episode.
It will go up this Thursday. That will be this
Thursday's Four Things. And I feel like, as I go
into this evening, because we're gonna be doing it tonight,
it's all going down. I have so many different feelings
and emotions and things going on, and I'm gonna be
(01:30):
sharing some stuff on stage that I haven't talked about before.
And some people are used to the podcast and they
know what to expect and they've been here before. Others
might be coming with a friend and they have no
idea what four Things is or about. And I feel
like I'm gonna be on stage like it's me. Hi,
I'm the problem. It's me. So I've been listening to
(01:51):
that to Pump Me Up, an anti hero song to
pump I know it sounds weird, but I've also been
I've watched a couple of Lizzo videos and consense. Yeah,
so minute, I'm annita a woman to pump me up.
So back to the Taylor Swift video though, too. And
in a conversation that's being had around that, which Cat,
(02:12):
I'm very curious your thoughts on this. I know inside
the video she originally had a scene where she's getting
on a scale and the scale read fat. Now that
was her own experience with the scale and her body
dysmorphia and her thing, and I know people made a
whole fuss about it, so she removed it from the video. Right,
(02:33):
Why are you shaking your head? She shouldn't have removed it. Yeah.
I have a lot of feelings on this, and I
want to say them carefully because I understand the sentiment
of this is a word that we're trying to neutralize,
and we don't want to be spreading that fat is
bad and all that. But what I think, I don't
(02:53):
know Taylor, you don't. I don't know where our friends
with her. I met her when I was sixteen, but
that's really it. And then thinks she remembers me, but
she might ve me. Andrea actually being here for this
conversation is very fitting because one time Andrew and I
were going to a Taylor Swift concert and I had
(03:16):
painted a portrait of Taylor for Taylor, and we won't
get into details about how I forgot the tickets at
home Andrea had to go get him. Last I guess
I'll go get him. And I was like, yeah, you
have to go get them because this is my time
to meet Taylor Swift. And I met Taylor and I
gave her the painting and I said, it's me. I
(03:40):
painted of you. I took art lessons for six weeks.
It was a whole bit on the Bobby Bones Show
to paint that and then presented to Taylor like I
was a psychotic fan. I bet she has it, which
I was, well, yeah, speaking of you, thinking maybe she
remembers you at sixteen, I am thinking to this podcast
at probably, hey Ta, she probably has the portrait of
(04:04):
her hanging in her house. What if in the music video?
And that's I did that. So back to the video
and the scale and the fat and whatnot. Okay, So
what I believe was happening. My interpretation of the video,
granted I didn't get to watch it before it was
removed because I just watched the whole video was she
(04:26):
was giving a picture. She was telling her story of
her inner critic, and I could be off, but it
felt like her inner critic that was also speaking from
the feedback she was getting from being in the spotlight
and being this person that everybody has to make a
comment about everybody has opinion about, and nothing is ever
good enough. And so when she's getting on the scale
(04:48):
and she sees fat, she's saying that felt bad to
me based on my experiences in the world. She wasn't
saying you shouldn't be fat, and this and that whenever,
she wasn't saying any of that. It was her story.
And I feel like by taking that out and by
telling her she can't talk about what it was like
to be her and for her not to want to
be that word, it's not letting her actually be authentic
(05:10):
and true. And I think that's a huge problem that
we're facing everywhere. Because I'm saying this with a lot
of empathy, because I know how hard it is to
be triggered by things. But when we get into the world,
the real world, when there's all kinds of different people
who don't actually care about our own personal stories, right,
(05:31):
we have to remember that it's our job to learn
how to cope with triggers and things we don't like
and things we don't like hearing or people saying. Our
job is not to then go fix all those people
and make sure that they say things that don't hurt us.
It's hey, what do I need to know that I
might need to make a boundary around or how do
I cope with something that doesn't feel good when I
(05:52):
see it or feel it? And I know a lot
of therapists were the ones saying this needs to be
out of there, and I kind of get what they're saying.
But when I have a client coming in saying I
saw this video and it said this on the scale,
blah bla bla bla, blah blah blah, all the things,
I'm not going to say, Hey, you should text Taylor
and tell her to take that out. Well, can I
interject and say why they might be saying that? Is
(06:13):
like an example of that might be, and specifically my
head might be, Wow, if Taylor's on the scale right
now and seeing fat and I don't look anything like her,
I must be fat, right, So that's how we're taking
things personally. When she's telling her story. I don't know
what her story is when it comes to this, but
if she has body dysmorphia, I can't be you can't
(06:35):
say that because what if other people that look different
than you, like I really felt that as a as
a as a woman within privilege, like you're not allowed
to have any body image issues because you are thin,
And I understand that, and I understand how that's hurtful.
And when we become people who are more outspoken about
that stuff, sometimes it's we have to stay in our
(06:56):
lane at the same time, like you did struggle or
you do ago or I don't know, bodies morphia was
a thing for you, and body image is allowed to
still be a thing for you. And that's where I
think we're telling other people that it's the world's job
to take care of us versus it's our job to
take care of us. Right. So if I have that thought, wow,
Taylor saying fat, I don't know, I'm triggered and I
(07:18):
feel fat, that's for me to work through, not for
Taylor to take out of her video, right, Because then
if that's if, if if we live in the world
where like everybody has to take these things out of
their videos, we're going to live in like a white
box because things are triggers to you and you that
aren't triggers to me and vice versa. And if we're
going around being like, let's make sure nobody has ever
triggered we won't be able to do anything. Versus, let's
(07:41):
learn about ourselves. Let's see what triggers us, why those
things trigger us, and do the work on ourselves so
then we can go experience the world and get to
enjoy it and other people get to enjoy the world too. Yeah,
and you know, let's be more resilient. Yes, that's good word, Andrea, resilient.
You know what a therapist I was with this weekend
on a on a trip kept saying, and I really
(08:03):
believe it's in It's like hard to hear, but it's
also true, is the world doesn't care about your recovery.
And that's like any kind of recovery, Like the world
doesn't care. So when we leave, specifically when we go
to a treatment center, let's say I used to work
in a treatment center. So I had these people in
a bubble and it was awesome and we could tell
people in group. We don't say this word at dinner,
we don't say these things at lunch, we don't say
these things. But when you get out in the world,
(08:25):
not everybody is going to be abiding by those rules
that people have to abide by and treatment, and so
we have to kind of build resiliency with people, and
it's not never be triggered, it's what are you gonna
do when it happens. And so we have to kind
(08:49):
of build resiliency with people and it's not never be triggered,
it's what are you gonna do when it happens. Yeah,
I love that a lot, but I think when you
are in the early stages of your recovery. We've talked
about this before, the pendulum can swing, like some parts
of me had to swing so far to the other
side of things to where yeah, I was super sensitive
and I was triggered, and I wanted everybody to see
(09:11):
things the way that I was because that's what I needed.
But as I've been in recovery, the pendulum starts to
balance itself out and I have room for all the
different things. But I also have the tools to work
on myself and know that this is my thing and
I don't need to make it about everybody else, because yeah,
they don't have the same experiences as me, and they
don't have the responsibility, and they should be able to
(09:33):
share what they've been through or whatever they want to say.
And it makes me think too of times on the
podcast where I'm very cautious about making sure that everybody
feels safe when they're listening. My sister brought up a
story one time when she was on which my sisters
here in which at all right now too. But she's
in her hotel room with my niece Adeline. I guess
they're having She said, they're having a cozy morning with
coffee and and room service. But she'll be on Thursday's
(09:55):
episode you'll here then. But she brought up some study
that was on about like smiling and just the act
of smiling can then make you feel happier or can
kind of be a mood shift. And I'm paraphrasing that,
but when she said it, I thought, oh, but you know,
we're not saying that you just have to smile your
way through things and that'll make it okay, and just
(10:18):
if you're really struggling, just smile. Like I felt like
I had to add that immediately because I didn't want
someone to think that we were implying like I was
just immediately hesitant to like the toxic positivity and all
the different things. But I do think there is a
time for for smiling, even if you know that's not
necessarily what you want to do, and maybe there is
something to tricking your brain in a way. And I
(10:40):
do think there's something to choosing joy sometimes even when
it's hard, but also feeling all the other feelings that
come along with it. That's just something that popped in
my head just now that I'm very cautious because of
all that's been outspoken about toxic positivity. It's hard for
me as a therapist. I'm like, positive psychology is a thing,
like that's like, so we can't say that, but toxic
(11:01):
positivity is not being optimistic. Like those things are very different.
But that's the world we're living in right where like
you never want to say something that's going to offend
somebody or somebody's gonna take the wrong way because so
many people now we're being more empathetic and that's great,
but we don't want our empathy to turn into like
silencing ourselves. And I don't know if I sent this
to you or we talked about it. I had to
(11:23):
be interested in both of y'all's thoughts on this. But
I saw this clip from a podcast where somebody asked
Jay Shetty, do you know who that is? He has
a podcast, He's great. I sent a lot of videos.
You know him, You just don't know that. Yeah. He
he was on your podcast, right, No, that'd be cool
if he was number one mental health podcast in the
world and oh, I get it now you want to
(11:44):
have him? Yeah, that was great. If you're listening Jay,
you need therapy podcast. Anyway, he was on somebody else's
show and they said, what is one thing that you
that other people value that you don't value? And in
my head, I was like, he's gonna say, like money
or clothes, but he said being understood, and then he
went on to talk about it and he said, like,
(12:05):
no matter what I do, there's going to be somebody
that doesn't get what I'm saying, takes it the wrong way,
what have you. And so I can't spend my life
trying to make sure everybody understands me. I just have
to actually accept that some people are going to get
it and some people aren't, and I have to learn
how to cope with that. So that's kind of what
you're saying, is like people are going to listen to
your podcast and be like, she's being toxic, But that
(12:26):
doesn't necessarily mean that you are right. Thank you for
that and also, just like you just said in your recovery,
your pendulum swing really far to one side. Well, our
world right now is experiencing that, especially after you know
everything that we've gone through the last three years. Our
pendulum is all the way over here, and nobody wants
to say and anything that's going to hurt anybody else's feelings.
(12:49):
And at some point we just have to continue to
be authentic and know that your intentions are good. I
hope and trust that people have good intentions because he
has to understand what I'm trying to say and don't
have to defend it all day long or try to
get them to understand No, that's not your job, right, Okay,
it's not your job, Taylor. Hopefully that can be very
freeing for a lot of people listening right now, and
(13:11):
whatever category this falls in, because for somebody else it
might be, you know, a completely different subject, like Andrew sing.
In today's world, there's a lot of different things, and
we're swinging so far left or so far right and
nothing's leveling out. What does it mean that we're open
to feedback? Right? So I might that's like in sense
and I'm like, oh shoot, I didn't actually think about that.
(13:32):
But I want this is for everybody, like take feedback openly,
but also like question the feedback to not everything you
get has to be truth, just like we need to
fact check the information we're getting everywhere about mental health,
Like it's the same thing as we need to actually
keep using our brains. Yeah, so you might be coming
(13:55):
to The Four Things live or hearing the episode on
Thursday and you might understand it. We don't care, but
that's okay. I'm with an open mind because but I
am excited. It's going to be a special evening and
a lot of work, like a lot, a lot of
work has gone into it and so many people coming
together to make it possible. But I am I'm excited
(14:18):
about unpacking what it looks like to really live your
life because that's like the first thing, and it was
inspired by younger me, probably seven or eight year old
me when watching that video. I even remember making it
in my laundry room because we've got the footage and
we're gonna play it, and I remember being that girl,
and that was before my dad had left. So part
(14:41):
of what we're gonna get into and the first thing
is some things that have happened in my life recently
that have woken me up. But I wonder when I
started to sort of fall asleep, and when I watched
that girl in that video, it's like I don't even
really know her. It was part of me that was
more curious and creative and outgoing. I mean, but that
was before some of my light got dimmed or my candle,
(15:05):
like a few of my candles got blown out. Because
I mean, everybody has their different experience throughout life. But
my dad leaving at nine years old was probably my
first traumatic experience. So that was my first big tea.
So I probably had some little teas here and there,
bumped my head a few times, because you know, your
brain doesn't your brain, Yeah, your brain doesn't know the
(15:27):
difference between emotional and physical trauma. So that's why I
bring up the little bumps here and there, because who
knows what that's doing to my brain. But then the big,
first big emotional thing that happened to me was that
at nine years old. So going back and watching me
talk about life in this way, me thinking my life
is so amazing and if you think yours isn't, the
(15:49):
look at mine, it's so good, Like that's what that's
what young me was saying. That's what the video. You'll
see it tonight when we when we do the taping.
But I watched that and I'm like, Okay, now I'm
waking up again and I'm curious about life and i
want to get back to that little girl that thought
my life was so amazing, and so that's what I'm
(16:11):
in the process of doing. But I'm unpacking what that
is like, and we're going to walk through some of
that tonight again you'll get to hear it on Thursday.
But it's interesting how we have different versions of ourselves
depending on different experiences that will show up at different
times in our life. And so why are you sil
Because I had a thought, but I want to save
(16:32):
it for the show. Well what is it? I can't
tell you now because you wanted to be a surprise
for me on stage. Yeah okay, Well, I just know
I have a thought that goes along with that, but
I want to save it so people listen to the
or by Well guess you can't buy a ticket, but
listen to show on Thursday. Yeah okay, but also smiling
because I had a dream about the show. Oh, what
was your dream by the way, Oh what was your dream?
(17:04):
By the way. I thought about telling you this when
I got on stage, but then I was like, no,
I can't. We just gotta keep it rolling. So I
lately haven't. I don't know if you guys dream a lot,
but I usually don't. But lately I've been having these
like vivid dreams, but usually are about things upcoming in
my life. I think I'm under some stress or something. Anyway,
So in my dream, we're going to do like a
(17:27):
run through. But the run through is just like you
be here at this point, then you walk up here,
then you do this. It's just like the dad, da dad.
You don't have to say anything. So we're sitting at
the people that are going to be on this show.
We're like sitting at this picnic table. And then when
it's my turn to go on the stage, Vossio comes
and gets me and she brings me over and I
(17:47):
walk on the stage and I see you and I
sit down and we start talking and we start talking
about like, oh, which any of you guys listening, you
probably know this all the time. Amy and are like,
we're gonna do a fifteen minute eisode and it'll be
forty five minutes, and we never actually talked about what
we actually were there to talk about. So I was like, hello,
l like, what if we do that? And anyway, So
(18:08):
we just start talking. But it's keep in mind, this
is not the show. This is a run through. So
we're just like talking and bantering, and then all of
a sudden you look at me and you're like, okay,
well we have to get to the show. And I
was like, oh, I thought this is a run through,
like you, we had to get to the topics and
to like, no, like go say your part, and I
froze and I was like, well, I'm not prepared. I
(18:29):
don't have my note cards, I don't have anything. So
I froze. So Fasio, everybody is mad at me at
this point, and all of a sudden, people appeared in
the in the seats. When I walked up there there's
nobody out there in my dream. All of a sudden,
there's like six d people in front of me. So
Fasio brings out like these random people from the audience
and sits them in front of me, and I was like,
(18:50):
can you guys start talking because she's ruining the show,
and they okay, well, I can care, and what's happening.
We're freaking out. We're really upset with me. But at
the same time, you didn't want anybody to know that
you're upset, so you're like, oh, Katherine, she's so silly,
and then get off the stage. Christy get on the
(19:10):
stage and was like, man, oh you got replaced by
my sister. Well, okay, let me say this. I think
that you, Yeah, you just have some nerves and some
fear around tonight and how it's going to go. And
I think that that's normal, because speaking on a stage
in front of a lot of people is not what
it is something that you do, so and I mean
it is something that I do, and I'm still nervous
because I've also never done a night like this before,
(19:32):
like some people or like, surely you've done something like
this before. Yes, I have been on stage in front
of thousands and thousands of people, maybe you know bringing
an artist on stage real quick, or about you had
other events before, But they've there's been other moving parts
of their components, Like I wasn't in charge of the
whole shebang and the flow of the night in the
run of the show and all the content and all
(19:52):
the things, and it's you know, live with people staring
at you when we're recording this podcast sometimes where we
get to be like Houston, edit that out, you know,
and Houston is actually here, which is crazy. We met
him for the first time in person and it's really cool,
and so who knows, maybe on stage night we will
be like we're Houston. Don't put this in, but I
(20:15):
will say nerves are good, and I think it means
something that is important. And I know you were saying
something about mel Robbins talking about nerves, but before you
share that, I want to say this too about if
something goes wrong. I already know I have the mindset
because we had a little hiccup last night with some
of the stuff. For there's a lot of visual things,
(20:36):
and there was a video hiccup and it's a crucial
part of the show. And I love that I was
able to sit there and Fausio was freaking out because
it was a mistake on her end, and I could
tell she was not happy with herself. And I looked
at her and I said, Fasio, if we end up
not having that video, what does this make possible? Right?
(20:58):
Because Donald Miller taught us that saying, and it's like, okay,
we just pivot. There's no point getting mad about it.
But she's just she's been an other events aforeward. It's
like if someone messes up, it's, you know, chop your
head off. Like this is when I taught every single
day it was okay, technology is not working, so you
just you have to make go. You gotta go with
the flow, Whelst. My kindergarteners are gonna catch me on fire. Yes,
(21:23):
And so you know, whatever career you have, whatever you
have going on in your life, like something might not
work out the way you had planned it. So if
Cat you are a total failure tonight and you bomb,
I am just gonna look at you and say, hey,
you're having the day you need to have, And what
(21:44):
does this make possible? And right now it makes possible
that my sister needs to come to the stage, so
please go and and we're gonna be fine. I would
not be mad at you for it. And I love
that I've had time to to practice that that motto
that's saying ever since Donald was on and just I
try to look at that in all things in life
(22:06):
now and it really is a healthy perspective to have,
and so that is how we will approach tonight. What
does this make possible? So what was the real quick
before we wrapped the What does mel Robins say about
being nervous? So she this was years ago. I saw
this and it has stuck with me. Where she said,
when you are nervous and you're excited, it's the same
(22:26):
experience in your body. You're just telling yourself a different story.
So you can tell yourself the story that I'm really
excited about this, or you can tell yourself the story
that I'm really nervous about this, and you can let
either of them lead, and I'm going to choose to
lead with excitement. I will say, there's a part of
me that has always believed that like for this works
(22:47):
for me specifically, But I'd rather admit that, like, hey,
I don't have it all together then try to pretend
like I have it all together, because when I have
to pretend like how it all together, I'm nervous and
then I'm pretending versus I just get to be myself
and like I'm a therapist, not a public speaker. And
you said so long ago, and that's why I'm like
I would do this with you, but I don't know
who else I would do this with. When I met
(23:08):
something up on a podcast, it was my own. I
was so upset about it. I think I deleted something
or something. And you said, honestly, when that stuff happens,
I tell myself that that didn't need to air, or
they didn't need to hear that, or I can say
it better later. So you kind of were like Donald
Miller before you met Donald Miller, I was so ahead
of the curves. But that makes me think it's something
(23:29):
that our friend Lisa Hayne posted the other day. I guess, Andrea,
I don't know if you've noticed this on Instagram, but
I guess there was some weird algorithm thing that happened
where people were losing followers. Yes, it was so weird.
So Lisa noticed it too, and she said that she noticed.
I don't know, Andrew, did you lose something? Guys? Wait,
(23:50):
because Andrea was a teacher and her she used to
guide teaches, but now she makes these wreaths. You've retired
from the sinny wreaths and there they are so so beautiful,
like you are so talented and it's so fun and
(24:11):
we're getting into the holidays. So what is your Tanner's
bride wreaths? Tanners doesn't bride reaths. And seriously, just go
even if like they're just go look at them because
they will make you smile. And then if you end
up wanting to buy one, that would be great because
I know you work really hard on those and you
go to all these We go to a lot of states,
(24:33):
spend a lot of money driving, but oh hey, it's
amazing though it lives on. Yeah, they're little treasures. I
will say when I'm super nervous or uncomfortable or excited,
it usually means gross about to happen. That's what I
tell my kids to It usually means I'm stepping into
(24:55):
this path that's a little unknown, and I'm going to
grow and change. Love that. And speaking of like growing,
I read that in the Bible changes. I don't God
God quote me. I do think I heard it in
church the one time that I don't well back to
(25:18):
the the path is narrow, you feel like who said that?
She's like God said it, mic drop God he told
me in my Drian. Okay, so the the Lisa thing? Um,
where why did I bring up your Instagram? Oh? Yes,
the Lisa was talking about it on on Instagram and
(25:42):
losing followers and that she wanted every just remind everybody
that that is okay, and she said, I too have
been affected by it. But what I am in the
season of right now is knowing that people that need
to find find me will find me and her content
(26:03):
that she's putting out there, and her and Lisa was
huge and a huge part of my eating disort of
recovery and her fork the noise course, and I found
her on Instagram, so she's not wrong, Like I'm thankful
I found her and others will find her and a
lot of her. A lot of people rely on social
media for getting stuff out there, but it's not the
only way that people are going to find you. And
(26:23):
then also if they've left you, they didn't need whatever
you're putting out anyway, and if they need to find
their way back to you, they will, and it'll it'll
work out. So good, so good great. I don't know
how many followers I had, so I don't think I
don't have that many, so I it's obvious to me
when that happens. I think something happened where they hundreds
(26:45):
were gone and then the next day they all were back.
It was something weird, what's happening? But one of my
friends said they were trying to get rid of bots,
which I think is good because the whole buying followers.
It's weird. It is weird. Well, I hope wherever you
are right now, you are having the day that you
need to have and that you definitely, definitely, definitely download
(27:06):
this coming Thursday's episode, make sure you listen to it.
We can promise you this. It is going to be fun.
At least we're tricking people into thinking it's gonna be fun.
I think it's it's going to be great. In going
through the run of show. You're gonna help a lot
(27:26):
of people. This is what you all do. You help
a lot of people out. Well, there's gonna be a
roller coaster. I have tried to bring in the fun
with some levity and some humor, but I mean, I'm
no comedian. This is just stuff that has come to
me that I think will be a lighter moment personality.
Then there will be like some more vulnerable, heavy moments
(27:47):
coming from myself and others that are sharing. So you know,
I think it'll be all the things, all the Things.
It's gonna be a great Saturday night, that's right. It's
going to be that's right. So we're gonna go, speaking
of gotta go get ready for that. But thank you
all for checking out this fifth Thing. You can find
Cat on Instagram, cat at cat dot Defata and my
(28:10):
podcast Instagram at You Need Therapy podcast Boom I am
at Radio Amy, and we'll see y'all on Thursday for
the first ever Four Things live taping that was taped
and now being re streamed for you. We taped it
on podcast that is finally airing for you. All right bye,
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
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