Luke Dick is one of the most sought after songwriters in Nashville. Rolling Stone called him “Nashville’s most outside-the-box tunesmith” He is a frequent collaborator with Miranda Lambert, Eric Church, Brothers Osborne, Dierks Bentley and Natalie Hemby. Bobby and Luke talk about the stories behind his No. 1’s “Bluebird “Round Here Buzz”, “Burning Man” and his extensive list of songs written for other artists. Luke shares how he went from teaching philosophy to getting back into the Nashville writing scene. Follow him on Instagram @LukeDick
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
We'll go to episode three. We'll talk to Luke Dick.
He wrote a bunch of songs for a bunch of people.
He's just a really interesting guy. What was awkward was
when we finished the interview, I walked him out and
as I came in, because I always trying to walk
him out and have a little personal talk with the microphones,
I was like, hey, man, uh, have a good day.
Good luck. And I was like, I don't know why
I said good luck. I'm awkward. I don't know why
(00:23):
I was like good luck. But he wrote, you know,
Eric Church, Randa Lambert, I mean, just such a great songwriter.
Did a documentary, so he was a philosophy professor. Very
interesting guy. Yeah, that's coming up in a minute. All right,
let's go top five songs of the week. Cole Swindell
put out a new song called some Habits. He actually
performed this on the radio show a couple of months
(00:44):
before it was released. Here is that version, because good Berboon,
it's hard to put down that high road, it's hard
to stay And here is the version that is out today,
because good I'm sorry to put down that high road,
sorry to stay on that good look get sorry to
(01:07):
pick up. Mitchell Tinpenny has a new EP out called
Midtown Diaries. Here's a new song called to Us It
did to That's my Town. We ran around He's supposed
to feel. The singer songwriter in this week's guest, Luke
Dick has a new song called Something's Happened That Won't
(01:30):
Do closes, and then another one at number two, Sam Hunt.
He put out a new song called twenty three No
Matter where I Go, no matter what I do, I
don't liverything. Plantic three moving any one but you. And finally,
Casey Musgraves has a new album out called star Crossed.
(01:53):
Here's a new song called Justified just and the one
new story I'll mention. Walker Hayes Fancy Like lands in
the top ten on the Billboard Hot One. I mean
I watched any SEC game, every commercials and Appleby's commercial
(02:15):
and it's him. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. It's wild to
watch how that went from being a viral TikTok to
a massive hit. Like hopefully he gets like pop play
out of this. You know, there you go, enjoy Luke
Dick in just a second. And with Luke Dick, you know,
I've seen many photos of you have friends who have
worked with you. It's just random for me to have
(02:37):
not have met someone until this point because you're a
very established, you know, super well thought up guy. And
our pets haven't crossed, have they? Um? I don't think so.
I'm pretty forgettable, though you are not a forgettable guy.
I'm pretty forgettable hide out, you know. I just got
my little studio and come out, I get eat, I
(03:00):
eat now and again, and then I pick up my
kids and then I get back to doing whatever it
is I'm doing. What is your studio like? Um? You know,
I bought this house right when I moved to Nashville, um,
six or seven years seven years ago, and there was
a garage in the back, and uh, it was unfinished,
(03:21):
and I thought that'd be a great place for just
have something close to the house away from the house.
And so then I put these opaque glass doors so
I could have some light, and put as much of
skylights in and really dressed it up and made it
into a thing. And so that's where I am all
the time. I'm currently looking for another spot of too
many kids. They're beating on the door all the time.
So are you? When you are riding in the shoot.
(03:43):
I assume you do a lot of writing the yeah, yeah,
and you're producing. Are you doing more than just demos? Like,
will you do any like anything for a record in
your spot? Yeah? Um, I I'm working on the next
Miranda Laveryt record right now. We're almost done, and UM,
a lot of this stuff were was UM. When I
(04:05):
do demos, I don't think of them as demos. I
just I'm trying to make something that I love, and
so I put more time and effort into it. And
so maybe some of that stuff makes it onto the record.
It may be the pre production um that we just
drum to. UM. There was a single for Kip More
called the Bowl a few years ago that was just
straight up out of my studio. So I'll do whatever.
(04:27):
How do there? UM? Right now I'm doing a UM
soundtrack for a documentary for it secually the sound bed
composition for the band guir you know, the crazy they're
crazy looking guys sort of. They're actually alien monsters UM,
(04:48):
who populated the human race and then got disgusted with
human beings and so they were really adamant that they
that they get out of here. So anyway, it's the
really their backs. Well, that's the a fictional bad story mythology. Yeah,
the true story is that it was a bunch of
punk kids in Virginia who um, they had a punk
(05:10):
band when him had a punk band. And then this
other guy he was making movies and he had all
these costumes, and the guy said, went on, I just
put on these costumes and will open for our punk
band with this sort of fake metal band. And so
that was how Gore came to be, and then that
band became more popular than their regular band. You mentioned
kipt song The Bull, which which was probably my favorite
(05:33):
song off that project, and I remember talking to Kip
about it because I played it on the radio show
a few times and it may have even went for
a single for a second. He was talking about it
and he called me and he goes, you know, what's
wrong with this song? He said, nothing with what we
did with He said, there are radio This is how
sometimes dumb radio is, because there are radio stations that
are up against stations that are named the Bull and
(05:54):
don't want to play it because it's going to bowl yep,
Like if there's a wolf and I'm just make up
cities and no one in Tucson. There's a there's a
Wolf Country station in a Bull Country station. The Wolf
wouldn't play the song the Bull because they felt like
it was a commercial for the Bull Country station. Yea,
if I wish I had that to do over again,
I would have named it something else. I would never
have thought of that. That booked me off, me off.
(06:17):
Did that story get back to you? Yeah? It did.
It was really um um, so frustrating and a surreal
look at the kind of things that you're up against
to try to make a living as a creative person.
You know, I'm just like, Wow, that is so ridiculous.
But um, okay, I guess I won't eat this year.
(06:41):
I was reading some about kind of your background, more
so than the songwriting, becau. I'm very familiar with the
stuff you've wrote and who you've written with, and we'll
get into that in a bit. But for me, one
of the I would say that coming from a small
town in Arkansas, I'm from a town called Mountaine, Arkansas.
You're from Oklahoma, so we kind of similar sensibilities for
we sure, And when I went to college and I
(07:02):
studied philosophy, it just kind of wrecked me in the
best way. And I grew up in a really small town,
had extreme values. And then I started to learn while
there's more, uh, there are deeper thoughts available for me
than I've ever tried to think about. And again it
(07:22):
scared me, It wrecked me. I grew. But then when
I read that you went off and we're an adjunct
philosophy professor, how does that happen? And and when did
that happen in your life when you were just so
moved by philosophy. That's a funny coincidence, um, that you
studied philosophy. But um, I in high school, my teachings
(07:46):
would feed me stuff that they thought that I would
be interested in, and it wasn't philosophy. It was just
weren't thoughtful literatures. UM. I had to do some stuff
on the Transcendentalist Henry David throw and Emerson I had
in the ninth grade and tenth grade, and teachers would
sort of funnel me toward that. Um. But then when
I got into college, UM, I was studying music business
(08:08):
for a hot minute, and then like after I half
a semester, this teachers like, well, in order to tour
with Roy Clark in Russia, you have to dot dot dot,
and I'm just like, I'm so out on this, you
know how, touring in Russia with Roy Clark that just
sounds so like this is our starting point, you know,
for whatever. And I'm in Oklahoma and I'm like this.
(08:31):
This was like okay, I'm heading my bed. So I
let him in a band and I'll just do this
music business. Maybe I'll be an executive or whatever. I'm like,
this is trash. I'm not doing this. And so then
I had this history professor I loved in the philosophy
professor that I loved, and I just started. There was
a double major, and in philosophy it was just interesting
questions that I thought of, um a little bit, very
(08:55):
very cursory manners as a high schooler and sort of
in your brain comes online, and just a philosophy to
me became. At first it was like this magical thing
that could give me all the answers. And then it
was like very clearly not that. It was just this
framework for thinking about the questions of freedom, does freedom exist?
(09:15):
Is there such a thing as good? How do you
measure good? Um? How do we have thoughts at all? Um?
Sort of even before psychology and sort of the history
of all that and the history of intellectual thought and
at all, and I became really interested in it. It
was really difficult to um and I was given all
but given up on music. And I moved to New
(09:37):
York and I had a master's. Then I was like, well,
I'll get a PhD. And uh, that'll be my job.
You know, it's good, you get a pension whatever. I
had a kid, and I couldn't you know, I was
had artistic aspirations, but my kid, it's like I can't
really tour, you know. And so anyway, about the time
that I said I'm gonna get a PhD, I started
(09:58):
making money, you know, uh, doing spec music for ads
and all this, and I was still making my own music,
making my own songs, and kind of that was that, Um,
I found a way to be a middle class citizen
with music. And that was always the goal, even as
a ten year old. You know, you never had dreams
of being a college professor when a massive university. It
(10:22):
was never a massive university when I was at you know,
when when the kind of the dream, the first little
rock and roll band he had died, I was like,
I really like it was this little liberal arts school
in Oklahoma City, and I loved it. And I was like, well,
I could come back here and I'd be one of
the two philosophy professors here. And it seemed like such
a sweet life. You know. You get up and you
go to school and you teach, and then you go
(10:44):
have a lunch and then you come back and have
a meeting or whatever. Um, and that seemed like a
a dream to me, you know. I mean I was
the first kid in my family to get an education
at all, So um, that seemed, um like almost a
Disney story to me. But then, um, I mean, because
(11:06):
there's nobody I don't know Mountain what did you say,
Mountain time population? Yeah, yeah, the the town that I
grew up in once my mom moved us out of
the country. Um, it was the closest town was fifteen people,
but we were twenty miles away from that, so it
was just like just a community of houses, you know,
(11:27):
the closest neighbors like a mile away or something. And
so I don't think. I think maybe the only person
in Cobra, Oklahoma to ever have a philosophy degree, I
don't know the two things that and we can get
off this in a second. But I really get to
talk philosophy because I know nothing. I mean now sound
like soccertse but I literally know nothing. And so but
(11:47):
the things that just rattled me was I remember reading
Mark Twain's That Damn Human Race about morality and if
that morals are bad, if we didn't know, if we
didn't have bad, who didn't have good, wouldn't have bad?
Like if there was no such thing as good, we've
created good, there wouldn't be bad if there wasn't good.
And animals don't have morals, and they're not good or
(12:08):
bad or evil, they're living. And I remember being like,
I'm not supposed to think about this, but feeling guilty.
And then I read The Cave, which I don't know
if you taught the Cave at all, the allegory of
the cave, yes, And I remember thinking, because it's, you know,
two people trapped in the bottom of cave. All they
can sees fire on a wall, and the whole world
is what they can see. And I remember, and one
of them is freed and is able to go outside
and come back in, and he's able to tell the
(12:28):
other guy I saw that, But the other guy his
only known existence is looking at that fire on the wall,
and he's like, there's no way that's true. And I'm
and I'm like, who else has left the cave? I'm
the guy. I'm the guy that's only seen the fire.
And that's a very brief interpretation of that. But I
just remember thinking, I am never going to like look
at earth or the world or more than the earth
the same After that, Well, it's kind of an utter objectivity,
(12:51):
you know, and you have to shake your own cultural
notions of reality and stuff like that. Um. I a
lot of people really um an idea that there are
no such things as morals or something like this, and
that we've created it all. That's scary to a lot
of people. UM. To me, it's like this weird thing
where um or fate, for instance, you know that you
(13:14):
were I was destined to be this. I always try
not to say things like that, because if I was
destined to be this, then it could be no other way,
and that means that I'm not free, and to be
not free sounds like the most scary thing to me.
Destiny is the opposite of freedom. Destiny is kind of
the opposite of freedom to me, or if there is
such a thing as uh, you know, predestination or something
(13:35):
like that, that all the decisions are made or known somewhere.
It's like, oh no, you know, Um, that doesn't sound
that doesn't sound fun. That sounds like a schedule. I
was doing a little more research on because my my
vision and version of you has been the last ten
years or so. Um. But it seemed like for a
(13:57):
while you weren't writing music for a while. Now you're back,
Like why why why did you quit? I wouldn't say quit.
Why did you take a break? And what brought you back? Yeah? Um,
i'm um, I'm I came to Nashville for a minute
and I just didn't have any luck. You know. I
was trying I was made a record, I was trying
(14:19):
to get in a deal. There are things stacked against me,
just logistically in terms of being a single dad and
stuff like this, and so I didn't And also people
weren't responding in a way. There were outliers, you know
that had some clouds or something that I really love
what you do, blah blah blah blah. But I was like,
this never amounted to anything, and it wasn't like people
(14:42):
were picking up my songs, and I'm like, I cle
either don't know how to do this, I'm not savvy enough,
or or it's just not good enough or something like that.
Did you never think you're ahead of your time? Uh?
That's um, I think that like looking back and list
thing to the record that I made, that's what it
sounds like to me. But I also don't want to
(15:04):
be um, um have delusions of grandeur or something like that.
It's just like music is important to me, but it's
also just a snippet of life and reality and it's
a big part. You know, it's a big part. It
gives me a lot of joy. Um, But I also
don't want to think in terms like I have a
hard time think thinking in terms of that that you're
(15:25):
ahead of your time and that's why it didn't work
or whatever. And but then whatever whatever is and it
didn't work, and so I left. And then my current
publisher called me when I was in New York and um,
he said, hey, do you have any songs for Dirk
Spentley And I'm and I just said no. Um. I
(15:47):
I mean literally everything that I've written has been in
falsetto and also about the afterlife. For some sort of
afterlife adventure. I mean it's too fantastical and whimsical for
Derek's I just don't thank you for calling me, um,
but he will just look me up if you've ever
in town. And then one thing led to another in
(16:08):
a few years went by and we met and um
for coffee and he's like, you need to come right
with me and at this company, and UM, you need
to be writing with Eric, and you don't need to
be doing what you think you should be doing. You
should be doing what you want to do and hits
will fall out of that, I promise you, And and
he was he was right, UM. And so between him
(16:36):
and getting in the right rooms and having just the
opportunity to show somebody like Eric Church song or an
idea for a song, UM, that led to a lot
of things. And Kip was a big proponent early on too.
It was like I didn't have any hits and he
was coming over because he liked the sounds coming out
of my studio and I would we would work on stuff,
and I think it was the Wild Ones record. I
(16:57):
got a couple of songs on there and we just worked. UM.
But then Eric and then Natalie him by and I
started writing together and it was like almost like we
fed off of each other's creativity, and so we were
like trying to not one up each other. It was
like us like pushing each other, like trying to make
each other like smile or get excited about a song.
(17:18):
And so we'd bring in an idea or a sound
or something like that, and that was a real joy.
And then she would also sing my praises. It was like,
I probably owe here a hundred grand and pr fees
you know around town. Brought Miranda into the room and
that became a relationship, um, and it's meant a lot
of joy and a lot of songs with her, But
(17:39):
it was that was kind of the beginning of it.
It was running into a publisher, um who believed in
what I did naturally, instead of trying to curb it
um to meet a market demand or something like that.
And that's not really where I shine anyway. And I
find that if I feel like my cat in a
corner when I'm writing a song, then it's usually not
gonna be all some It's going to be an average
(18:01):
kind of thing day or whatever. I've talked to Miranda
and Cassie Ashton, Natalie him Be, those that you mentioned there,
and they all say the same thing about you is
that you know, you're very out of the box and
with ideas. I mean, that's that's the easy way to
describe you to people who don't have to write songs
like Um, do you feel like you're known as the
out of the box guy? I mean yeah, I mean
(18:25):
I don't feel like I love Ashley Gourly, but I don't.
I don't think that I have that kind of potential.
Um in terms of commercial success is Ashley Gorely? Because
I feel like there's like five artists at any given
time that might be interested in what I'm doing because
it doesn't fit subject matter, The subject might not fit
(18:46):
into the way that they see the market. UM. But
I honestly, UM, I am just trying to get ideas
that make me excited to write the song. UM. And
also it's it's not so serious, you know. I mean,
there are plenty of songs that aren't don't necessarily have
to be serious. UM, I don't know, pink sunglasses or
(19:06):
something like that. Um, that's really fun, that's really joyous, right,
I think in the indie rock band I have Hey,
Steve is all about this sort of but digging in
weird to weird pop culture, but also having fun while
you're doing it and being, um, what's the word, um,
self deprecating a little bit. Um, I don't know. That's
(19:28):
to me. Country has a sweet spot for self deprecation
too that I really love me. It's it's been a
part of the history of country. Um. But anyway, that's
a long way around. Um Am, I the out of
the box guy. I feel like, just maybe objectively, yes, um,
it doesn't feel like it. It feels it's all in
my head, so it feels like it's mine. It's my
(19:48):
own box. So I'm just like, yeah, this is what
would be cool, and everybody else is like, why would
you do that? I mean I've pitched songs ideas before
that were hits that people were like, what does that mean?
Why you did you do that? Or something like that.
It's like that it goes on to be a number one.
Do you you seem like a guy that would need
an aesthetic in our room? There's your studio have an
(20:09):
aesthetic where people they're like, this is the look dick aesthetic? Yeah,
it's there. There's definitely. I mean I did a re
upt it a little bit over COVID, but you know,
I have objects that I love or that are close
to me. And the color scheme was just like asolutely
beautiful mustard wall. And then you know a painting that
(20:30):
this painting that I saw, it was just these like
birds in the midst you know. And it's like things
that aren't, things that aren't that are impressionistic. I guess
that are aren't particular things that are are art wise
in the studio, I don't like having awards up on
the wall. That's that's the past that seems I don't
(20:50):
always never made me. It never made me feel good
to walk in and see awards. And it felt like
something as he walked up fireplace out there with fourtive
creative to create a space. But but then just things
that you like, things that make you feel good. Do
you love it? Or is it beautiful? Isn't that a
question about the aesthetic of an interior? Does it do
you love it? Um? Is it beautiful? Is it functional?
(21:13):
Those kind of questions? Um? But then colors, I really
love colors. And so the one wall is this really
deep navy ish kind of Hugh and then the back
wall is this sort of mustard color and all this
greenery and stuff like that, great things that live and breathe,
you know. Um. But yeah, I always it's important to
(21:36):
me to feel good in a space, um, and a
songwriting space is pretty intimate, you know. I mean, you're
around somebody for six hours, and usually if you're in
this business, there's some sensitivity about you, and so you
never know what you're gonna end up talking about. And
I mean I remember one day it was me and
Laura Belts and Jesse Joe Dillon, and we sat down
(21:56):
and it seemed like, um to two thirds of the
people were having you know, um sort of turmoil at
the time, and so it was his outpour of you know,
the oh my God and this and this and this
and I can't believe it that that and this, and
it was really heartfelt. It was a safe space, you know.
And then and then we broke for lunch and came
(22:17):
back and wrote this song called Tattoo, which is this
super flippant song about about wishing that you were a
tattoo because you could be on somebody seven and so
it would be turned into this thing. But to have
a space that welcomes that kind of openness. Um, that's
what I hope for. I feel like that's some really
(22:37):
good stuff can happen, either either something with depth or
something you know, surface level. UM. Fun, it's um, it's all. Um,
it's all necessary to me. When you started writing with Eric,
(22:57):
was he already have success or was it early on?
It was the Mr M Mr Misunderstood record, So he'd
had him a serious amount of success by the time
I was writing with him. So you you start writing
with him, I mean to you as a creative, is
that intimidating to write with him? Or is it kind
of refreshing because he also, you know, win a different
(23:19):
angle at his success. Yeah. I was in New York
and when I was living there, they somebody showed me,
um smoke a little smoke and they said, have you
heard this? And I listened to him like like, is
this what they're doing in Nashville now? And UM, it
(23:39):
gave me how you know that that there could be um,
something creatively interesting, sonically interesting. UM. And I feel like people,
I feel like Jay Joey's kind of paved the way
sonically for somebody like me to be here. UM. I really,
UM have a lot of gratitude for what they with
(24:02):
those two have done together. Um, it's no small feat
to break in with a different sound. And but but
to more point at your question, a little bit better, UM,
there's always a bit of intimidation. It doesn't matter how
how successful or not commercially successful the artist is coming in.
(24:23):
So but that was, you know, the first chance at
and at an a list situation UM for me to
prove myself for whatever. Um. But I had sent him
this idea um to be my publisher that he loved,
and you know, there was it was already was killed
a word, and there was already an idea happening there.
(24:44):
And the in the first stands and refrained and he's like,
I love this, Let's finish it. And so he came
in and we finished that and then it was like
it took us like an hour to finish the song.
And then he it was me and him and Jeff
Hyde who plays in his band too, who's a great writer.
And then he had the idea for around here buzz,
and so he kind of had a hill around here,
(25:06):
buz buzz, and so then we just sort of took
off on that and it just felt natural. Once you
get into everybody's a human, you know, it's like there's
no I don't know, there's no there. There's different kinds
of magic, two different human beings, you know, UM and
different and and Eric is definitely somebody with UM a
(25:28):
special kind of charisma and a special kind of UM
creative UM capacity and and uh intellect to me, UM,
but as a human being or trying to impress another
human or something like that, it's like, look, you know,
we all woke up today, we all needed breakfast and
all that stuff. So let's just you try to put
(25:51):
stardom or something like that out of your head. UM.
I tried to UM and not be UM. I guess
motivated or or dissuaded or felt feel insecure around UM
that kind of a status. I'm trying to think if
there was somebody that I'd be so star struck that
it would be difficult to write with UM. Uh you
(26:15):
know Tom Waits, I don't know, UM kind of sound
like Tom Waits right now when you're talking. I'm Bob Dylan.
I guess you know, if you had to go write
a song with Bob Dylan, that would probably be one
of the most intimidating things situation. Um, I remember, this
is not an intimidating person. But this guy came over
(26:36):
and he was an Englishman and he had these hits
in the eighties, these pop rockets, and they were really good,
good ones. And I kept playing like guitar stuff and
he's like, uh, he'd look at me and go and
that's not very inspiring, is it. What do you do
to that? You know? I'm just like, what do you got?
(26:57):
And he's like, here's a list. I'm more of a rist.
Here's here's a list of titles. And the titles are
like all night long, all night, all of everything. And
I'm just like, I kidding me, what is this? Are you?
Are you a lyric or melody guy at heart? When
you start to write, I can't separate them, really, you know. Um,
(27:23):
when Natalie, it's different for different rooms. When I get
around Natalie and I have a medal at melody already
with something and with the phrasing, and she wants to
change the melody, I usually defer to her because I
really believe in her abilities to make a melody. Um.
There are a few other people like that that when
they say, man, I think this melody could be better.
(27:44):
I'm like, all right, let's check it, let's scrap it,
let's see what's up. Um, but it all I really
want to marry it all because you can't just send
somebody the lyrics to a song and expect it to
speak to them off of a page. I mean, there's
a whole thing happening there. It's like this. The beauty
of um music or songs in general, is that there's
(28:06):
a sound, there's a you know, there's a chord progression,
there's a lyric, and there's a melody on top of it.
So it's hard for me to say that I'd be
one thing. Um, when you write, are you writing based
on will you just chase lyrics or will you sometimes
just create a melody and then cert lyrics into it later?
Both Um both Um said, Laura Els does this to me.
(28:29):
I hope she's listening right now, because when we write,
I'll be I'll turn around and I'll start try to
get the track going. You know, it's like, okay, we
got the first first, let me just put a little
bass part in here. I'll turn around. The Laura is
such a prolific lyricist that she'll be done with the second. First,
I'm like, wait a minute, I like this song. Can
I participate? Please? You hold on to you know, have
(28:50):
a have a story, eat some chips or something, and
let me do this bass part contribute UM. But there
have been times UM, that the melody has come first.
You know. It's like, you know, you start playing UM
and something will just spill out of you, and then
you just work around the vowels. The vowels might lead
(29:13):
you to a phrase or something like that, you know, UM.
I read the Keith Richard's book and he talked about
the way that they did that, and it's I don't
think it's uncommon to do that, UM life. That's the
book from Keith Richards, And he said, I think I
can't he had a name for it, you know, the
way that they do it. But it's you know, you're
just playing a chord and you're oww had and so
(29:35):
then whatever value sing that feels the most natural, you
might lean toward a word with that vowel sound UM,
and then it and then you have to work the
concept around the vowel sound or something like that. You know,
it's a really songwriting's really weird. But um, I do
find that when I listened to songs and I feel
(29:57):
like that's a good melody, those are the wrong vowel
sounds or something. You know. I'm like, I can't understand
the lyric. It's not the lyrics not sticking out to
me because the it's all mushed in there in a way,
and the vowels aren't popping in the there's too many
words or too many, too not enough words, so there's
like an economy, and that's all subjective to right. It's
just like, is that sounds too like too many words
(30:19):
to me? Um, it doesn't sound like too many words
to that artist or that person singing it. I'm gonna
compare you as a lyrict system a songwriter to Eminem,
which you may have never been compared to. But WHOA.
When I listened to Eminem, he bends rhymes. Sometimes he
doesn't rhyme, but still rhymes. And a lot of or
(30:40):
at least some of your writing you don't even chase
a rhyme. There just aren't rhymes where there should be
where traditionally rhymes are. I shouldn't say should be right, Yeah,
there aren't rhymes were traditionally rhymes are yeah. Yeah. Is
that purposeful on your part to not put rhymes there
or is it just purposeful to put those words there
(31:00):
and they just don't happen to rhyme. I feel like, Um,
when you get down to it, it's like, especially if
you're chasing a lyric, and it's like, is this lyric working?
Is this idea working? You just run with it, um,
And then it's I don't want to say it's not intentional. UM.
(31:22):
Like the way to say it's not it's not my
intention to say every song needs to rhyme like this,
or let's try some rhymes in the middle of this
of this phrase is rather than at the end of
the phrases, which is typical. UM. I feel like you
just all you're left with in any creative endeavor is
(31:43):
your own esthetic intuition and you have to go with
what moves you. And when any time, I mean, there's
been a countless artist that come in and we end
up with a song that I don't care about, um,
And that's okay because they're saying, no, I don't want
to do this because I want to do that, And
I'm like, well, that does nothing in my head, you know,
or heart or whatever. I'm like, that doesn't do anything
(32:04):
for me. But it's your career, you know, it's your
artistic impulse that you're chasing. So chase it then, um,
And I hope that. I hope it works if I
like you and the demo to kill a word? Yeah,
which is you singing? Which we have it right here? Well,
like play a little bit out it here, I put
(32:26):
up sit down in its place. I squeezed the laugh
out of disgrace, lay over under six cold Yeah, yeah,
so steal that. We were at your house last night,
(32:48):
so much about your studio broken last night. So change
the code? Is it a How prevalent is it that
if you're writing with or for, like an Eric, that
that person doesn't sing the demo? And is that purposeful?
So the demo doesn't get out with his voice on it?
(33:10):
It wasn't purposeful. He just said, put your put your
vocal on. I like what you're doing. I'm out, Um,
do do your thing. I want to hear what you do. Um.
And then there's sometimes where, especially if it's a female artist,
where where I'm less inclined to go do a vocal
on it. Um. And for a couple of reasons. One
(33:34):
is a shrewd. You know. It's like, if they just
hear a dude on there, then it sounds like a
dude song, you know. But if you write it with
the artist who's female, and then another female artist the
other the other excuse me, the other female writer, if
the other female writer sings it, it makes more sense
to me. But I don't like, really if I feel
like it shoots you in the foot a little bit,
(33:56):
unless it's somebody like Miranda that we know each other
well enough to where it's not like she's like, oh,
this sounds like she can hear through that stuff. I
trust her to hear through that stuff. But generally, if
an artist is there, um, and especially if it's an
artist that I don't work with that often, I'm gonna
try to get them to sing it because I want
to hear what they sound like on it too. If
I and also see if you face if you did
(34:18):
okay or you didn't. What I mean by that is,
sometimes you write all these melodies. You write this song
and somebody sings on it just doesn't sound good, you know.
And so if you're off the mark in terms of
a melodic structure or something like that you'll be able
to hear it when they get on the microphone. It's
like they're not really capable of singing that, or they
are really great at it, or it's kind of in
the middle. Maybe we shouldn't have gone that high and
(34:39):
you change the key, those kind of technical decisions like that.
So it's if it's a if they're if we're the
only writers in the room. Oftentimes I get tasked with
singing the singing the demo on it, and I'm generally
I'm happy to do that. It's fun to me. It's
a creative endeavor, especially if I love the song. Well,
(35:00):
Bluebird comes out and it's a massive radio success, and
I think it was the first massive radio song from
Randon a long time. I remember saying that, like, you know,
she'd just had a record that that double album I
had done so wonderful, but it didn't translate into singles.
But Bluebird comes and just crushes. It's the number one
and was one two Grammys. Um no, we nominated for
(35:23):
two Grammys. Did you go? That was when the COVID
was happening, So you still know. I bought a suit
in my closet. It sits so you didn't even put
it on for the night of that we're doing it
on on the internet on no. So is that cool
to you to be nominated for a Grammy or is
it to you? Is that just a piece of metal
that represents and what disrepresentation? Even me, I would I
(35:46):
would really be lying if I didn't say that I
would not want to win a Grammy. I mean I
would love to say that I want a Grammy. Um.
Sometimes I catch myself, you know, when you win something,
and it's like, I'm always thankful to win something. Um,
there is a truth for me to the the fact
(36:06):
that when you write a song like that that was
really meaningful to you, that nothing compares to the day
that you wrote it with your friends and then you
heard the and then you played it back and you
heard and you sang on it and you listen to
demo and you get excited about it. Nothing compares to
that joy. Winning awards is Um, it's another like just
(36:27):
kind of hurrah. At the end, you know that you're
the hard work and the beauty, the beautiful work is
already done. And Amy Taylor calls it the pudding. You
know you've already eaten the meat. And all that stuff,
and pudding is nice, you know, but you don't need it.
You're already full kind of um of everything that said.
If the Grammy, any Grammy voters are out there, if
(36:49):
I'm out for anything next year, please vote for me.
One of my favorite songs from you as Velvet Elvis,
Oh yeah, from Casey. Do you ever have an idea
(37:12):
for a song or a title like Velvet Elvis and
have to google and see if it's been done because
it just sounds so perfect and you're like, surelie, somebody's
done this before. Um, that will happen sometimes. And if
it's like something obscure somewhere, it's like the titles aren't
um copy written. So and also it's like again, um uh,
(37:34):
lionel richis you know, all Night Long? And then Beyonce
had a song called all Night It was great, um so,
but something like Velvet Elvis. To me, that's a little
trickier one. Now. And I have wrote a song called
Taxidermy and it's it's like from Casey, yeah, And I
was like, yeah, you know, you can't. You know. It's
(37:56):
like we've had a few artists that come in and
it's just like, do you want to. I got this
title called, um, I Can't Make You Love Me? And
I was just like, you know, or a blackbird. You know,
it's like you can't there's something about those I don't
know that you can do again. Um I would I
(38:18):
would scratch my head if somebody came out with Bluebird
again in the next couple of years, you know, at
least in the genre of country for sure. Um, So
people don't normally do that. I have got I've caught myself.
I had a title one time called don't Don't It?
(38:39):
And I wrote it, and then a week later, Billy
Currington comes out with a song called Don't and and
so I was like, there's a waste of twelve hours.
Did you go back and try to find another angle?
Rename it? It's called do it Now. Anybody is out
(39:00):
there listening and wants to cut it, you can email
my publisher and will send it right up. You've got
two or three singles so far from Miranda's newest record.
Do you kind of know where she's leaning when a
project is done? Like I really feel like these that
we wrote could be singles? Or do you just sit
and guests with everybody else? I kind of guess with
(39:20):
everybody else. You know, I feel I feel it in
my heart, you know, and I feel like that could
be something big. But then there's so many people who
make those decisions because I don't know, because what because whatever?
But um, you know, there are people at the label
who have an idea, and the promo people at the
radios and all this. You know, it's just like it's
(39:43):
that's another game. It's it's real difficult for me to
get wrapped up in unless I want even more anguished
than the than the music business deals out, you know,
So I try to chill out, um on not It's
not that I don't hope that I have singles because
I want, you know, songs that I believe in to
(40:03):
be heard. Um, but I do, um try to maintain
some kind of mindfulness res in around what's happening behind
the scenes, because I don't think I've changed anything one time.
You know, it's like, oh if I just told them this,
or you know, sort of some kind of various right
(40:24):
from Game of Thround, some kind of whisper you know,
the scene it's making things happen. It's like, that's not
my game. What about if you cut a song like
you like Derek's cut the Mountain, what you guys wrote
and so you right the mountain, he cuts the mountain
and then it becomes the title track. Now, to some
people that's great because the whole project, maybe the tour
(40:45):
is named after it could be a single. But to
some people it's I'll know it's the title track that
will never be a single. Well, you know, I don't know.
That's a great that's a great um set of facts
to figure out. Are there is there any title of
a wreck that's ever been a hit? Like recently it
was well, okay, I'm just thinking I'm going right now,
(41:08):
brothers Osborne have a single now because this is the
record called um it's like it's like you're not like
us and it's also their single. Yeah, yeah, not everyone.
We're not for everyone? Is that the name I wrote that? Yeah,
it's not for everyone? Okay, never mind, never mind, But
you wrote that, you wrote that Rose Osbourne song with
(41:30):
the yeah, maybe it's the tour. Okay, that's what it is.
That is called that We're not for everyone to tours
Tours are a plus name and getting it. There was
a burning Man tour. For a minute, I get that
was good when um, I'm trying to figure out. Yeah,
(41:53):
And that's something we should look at too, because most
people act like they don't like it if the record
is named after the song they wrote. But I don't
know if it's just some fallacy that has now happening.
I'm ready to break it now. I'm just like, I
don't even care about that rules, like that's surely there's
a way around that. You want to call Dirk's right
now and the mountain, Yeah, put out the mountain. I
(42:14):
know you're two two singles past that record, but let's
go back. You did why, I mean, what's who's to
say you can't? There are no there are rules, no more.
You know Lizzo did that. It was like I was
loving on Lizzo. Know, Maddie and Tay turned me on too. Lizzo. Um,
this was in the two thousand and sixteen or something
like that, and I got so into it and then
(42:36):
I was like, man, these are bangers. And then she
I don't know what happens, but she has a song
is big, and she gets has a moment and then
they just start releasing everything as singles. Is everything starts
going as radio that we're four or five years old.
Because they're so awesome. I was like, see, there's no rules,
there's no rules, you can do anything. Yeah, and Dirk
put out the Mountain, Yeah, hurt Yeah, Dark put out
(42:57):
the Mountain. When you're listening, Uh yeah, hest that's a
wild story because even why get great? What I mean
that was an old song? Yeah? Yeah yeah yeah and
Teman now feel good. Yeah we're pure melody. Right, we're
both melody guys. Right now, Derk's Britlan Hardy beers on Me,
(43:18):
which is the single right now, Swing bold Ever, spend
on your mad bottles, all that don't feel good, Standard
Time Card's on the car. You've got nowhere to be
if you don't come through, Buddy, that song you because
(43:38):
the pears all me. So you haven't. You have a
song that's out today Friday, because this will be heard
on Friday. Uh, something's happened. And so this is not
from your documentary. It's a whole new thing. So is this?
I'm so over that documentary? Are you? I'm kidding? You
(44:01):
just gotta keep making stuff, you know what, I don't know?
You just keep making stuff, keep creating and feeling good
and hopefully something else and if it doesn't keep going.
But what you're now You put out Something's Happened, which
is not Hey Steve, which is not the documentary. This
is a you. It feels like a country Okay, so
(44:22):
what's the why? Why now? Why this? I just honestly, Um,
I'd put out Polyester, which was part of the track,
and um, people gravitated toward it and and they're like, um,
why don't you putting out more songwriter of your stuff
(44:43):
from Nashville songwriting? And I said, that's a great question.
I mean I have a lot of songs that I love.
And so then I was like, I'm just gonna put
together a record. I don't care how long it takes.
I'll just put together a record. And um, I mean
this will be a part of the record. And when
will the record come out? I don't know. March. How
(45:05):
about March? That sounds good for now? Yeah, you have
me back in in March. I want to talk about it.
Do you want to tour? Yeah? I want a tour.
Well you said earlier you know you couldn't because of
the kid. Yeah, but now can't you know, well, you
know things are different. You know you can the way
that the country tours, you can go out and play, Um,
(45:27):
Steve will do thirty or forty shows a year. Um,
if we were rocked through this festival season, um and
play a few festivals, it's it's um, hey Steve playsty
shows a year. Yeah. Wow, yeah, I mean that's a
touring schedule itself. Yeah kind of Well why do you
say that? I mean even if you just going out
(45:48):
for three days, you know here there ten times listen,
I get it. That the country tour and you know,
alternative pop tour all different animals. Yeah, thirty forty days.
Will being a professional right or doing it as much
as you do it, that's a significant amount of work.
It is a significant amount of work. Um. But the okay,
this is always this has been the recurring theme of
(46:10):
my career. Um. Do you do you want to play
for people? Yes? And then there then then life gives
you all these caveats, um, logistical caveats. Do you want
to also go right with Derek's for three or four days? Yes?
Do you need you want to go um to your
kids spelling b Yes? And so I've luckily found a
(46:34):
management team who understand um the fluid um concept of
my schedule and UM it it works. You know. It's
like I put together a living Um, I'm able to
go play and if you know there's a good opening
(46:55):
gig or like Steve's doing some hard tickets, we could
do hard if hard ticket dates and play a few
festivals and UM have a good time. It's like, UM,
and I don't know, life is that's what I want
to do, you know, it's it brings me joy and
so you go do it. And also when you see people,
(47:15):
when you're playing for people and the songs do something
for you and you see them in the environment of
a live show, which is really kind of where music.
UM is the benchmark to me for what music is.
Um it's a communal thing, you know, it's not just
headphones for people. UM. There was it was a switch
(47:37):
flipped in me a few years ago. Was just playing
with a guitar and being able to tell stories and
and have a moment with with people. UM. And then
Steve is a whole different piece where it's just a
sort of crazy UM rock a slave live show. UM.
And and like Catact three had, we opened the Rhymean
for them last week and it was, UM so such
(47:59):
a ratic experience. I've never played the rhymeman before, and
to do it opening for a country band with an
indie rock band, Um, this sort of absurdist twist. You know,
it's really fun. I appreciate your ability to try to
save breaths by not saying hey in front of Hey
Steve like your I mean, you keep calling Steve, Yeah Steve,
I mean, I like, I like that you guys have
(48:20):
really abbreviated. It's a it's a big difference. I mean, breath.
We called it Steve for a while, and my manage
that said we can't do this anymore because every time
Steve Aoki really it really was Steve. I was just like, uh, um,
(48:41):
all right, I get it. Fine, practicalities. Here is a
clip of Run through the City because it read our
guy shooting video over there. He went to read where
(49:04):
did you go to his show? It was at the
Basement East And when you went, how were you put
on to Steve? Hey, Steve, Actually, somebody's a mine. We're
opening for you, Joey Broaden out. Oh yeah they were awesome.
Yeah yeah, the ladder out there, Yeah, they're they're crazy, man.
So I went to go see them and then Steve
(49:25):
threw it down. It was amazing, and he said he
came back and was like, I had to google it.
It was like, wait, it's the same guy. It's like
you live in two different lives. Though. Yeah, um it's
you know, haste is pretty cathartic sort of situation where um,
it sounds like you wake up from It's like if
you had like an Internet bender or something like that,
(49:48):
and you wake up from it and like you just
sort of these are the lyrics, you know, sort of
stream of conscious streaming consciousness lyrics, but you're also having
a really good time while you're doing it. It's kind
of the the vibe I wrote to a couple of
the songs he were settling down, which I thought it
should have been a number one. I mean it was,
(50:09):
it was ready, it was right there. What happened? Don't
hey listen. I don't know if people blame me for STEF,
I have nothing to do with the programming. Ready, and
they throw some songs around me and that's the day
what happened. But I was I really felt like that
song will be one of hers though, that it doesn't
matter what number it was, it will hang out and
be a people don't know was number one or not? Right? Yeah, yeah,
(50:32):
let's see pink sunglasses. What you mentioned earlier, which she did,
this is maybe the c M May Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
One of my favorite moments was looking out and Jada
Pinkett was rocking out. She had the glasses on. She
was just like stoically nodding. You mentioned Dirks and he
did Bernie Man Tour, which is you wrote Burnie Man.
(50:54):
And then he did The Mountain, which you had. The
album was called The Mountain. You had both he had
the tour ended. Yeah, yeah, I wish I made money
from that. Like if you're if you put your title
on the side of a freighter, you can't trade market
title and it's tour now is beers on me? Yeah? Yeah, anytime,
I don't know, somebody, there's some lawyers listening out there.
(51:14):
If you guys would just figure out how to make
people pay like a quarter every time they see the
side of a truck. I I'm such a Cassie Ashton fan. Yeah,
she's great, Like I think she is kind of the
undiscovered like she may have been. And I hate to
just use this term, but we were just saying in
a few minutes ago, slightly ahead of her time because
she was very progressive and she's already gonna be sitting
(51:36):
there ready when it gets to her. Yeah, she's she's
such an artist and just a creator music. Obviously, she
could sing, she makes clothes like crazy. I feel like
there's such a spirit to her, and so she's like
the untapped that one day it's going to just be
massive from her totally. I feel that Taxidermy you mentioned
(51:57):
that one. Here's the clip of that. I mean, what
a jam? What a jam? Violence? I mean, you have
so many we're not we can't do them all. But
you know you have a song that's out today that
when people to check out and the record come I
any day. Let's just say that the whole album good,
come I any day. So check this song and just
(52:20):
and every day look back. Yeah, and then and then
let's make it awesome. And then if Kenny Chesney wants
to cut it two, he can go cut it. Would
any of the songs that you put on your album
be available if someone wants to also cut it and
put it out. Yes, nice to see that's one word. Yes,
would you cut for this album any of the songs
(52:40):
you've written for other people that you love so much.
I feel um, maybe not that have been released not
I feel like, you know, people have heard that enough.
I feel like there could be more. So you take
us so is extremely different. I know you say that,
and you've been involved in the intricacies of writing the
(53:02):
early stages. Maybe not in the studio and all of
them or any of them, but I feel like you
have such a different style on vibe to it. Yeah,
you mean the record if you were to. I'll give
you an example. Nico Moon, who wrote a lot with
Zach Brown. Yeah, he wrote, um, I got some home homegrown, Yeah,
and we wrote it with Zach. But Zach put it
on He's like, that's not how he wrote it. He's like, well,
(53:24):
I wrote it like this, and he enjoys Zack's version,
but he puts it out and it's kind of oh,
who wh whoa Okay, do you picture any of those
songs like that? Are you just? You know, it's funny
because a lot of the songs that end up on
people's records are are either like maybe I produced it
or partly produced it, or played some stuff on it
and it came from my demo or something. So It's like,
(53:44):
I don't know what I would do differently, you know,
in terms of because it was I feel like the
creative the Sonic creative stamp was already on there. So
it's kind of tricky to me to go in there.
It's like, oh yeah, they just took you know, Eric's
voice off and just put Luke's voice on it. It's like,
I don't you know, I want to do that, do something.
It's there's plenty more songs to write, plenty more songs, right,
(54:06):
You guys can also check out Red Dog, which is
your documentary. Oh yeah, yeah, do you make any money
off that? I I think I've broken even on it.
That's a win. Yeah, it is a win. It was
a labor of love. And so it's like when you
really do the balance sheet on everything, Well, I drove
here and I drove there, and I you know, chicken
(54:27):
tenders here, whatever. You know, you start racking it up
and um, and it's expensive to make movies and it
was just me and a couple of other people making it. Um.
But yeah, we finally, I think we finally broke even.
And it's but more than that, to me, it's like
(54:48):
the email boxes are kind of flooded with stories and
stuff from people who watched the film. And I had
a similar childhood, or I had a child that was
kind of like this and it was just like this,
and then my dad was in the biker gang and
blah blah blah blah ba and UM. And all that
to say is that I people found it meaningful. I
found it meaningful doing it. I knew. I didn't ever
think I was gonna get rich off making that. UM.
(55:11):
I always just found that it was an interesting place
to be creative. UM. And once I started doing it,
it was really exciting to me. And also it was
really fun to make music around that. UM, to make
music to create an experience that UM with an intention. UM.
So that was UM where it really kind of was
a concept record that the the concept was the film,
(55:33):
you know, and that was Polyester and Blazer. We're both
off of that. That's right here we go. It's almost
like we're prepared. There. We it's going over there singing alright,
new song. Now today, something's happened. We've spent an hour here. Uh,
(55:54):
you're just you're a really entertaining guy. Hey man, thanks
for having me on here. I'm um glad to be
entertaining people. Everything about you when you drove up to
the gate, Huh, what did I do? Your shirt, your sunglasses,
your presence. I'm looking at you all angles like and
(56:16):
like that was what was entertaining, because I tell you why.
When he pulled up, liked on the camera boot, push
the button, look at it. And I didn'tay anything back
because I did hit the button and it goes you're
come on in whatever it says, right, But I said,
this is a very successful guy and most people to
come over here and chop in the big trucks or
their their fancy cars. And he pulls up in a
minivan and I was like, read, I don't know if
(56:36):
that's him or not. That's awesome. He showed up in
a minivan. I can't remember pulled up to her right
one time in the mini van and or maybe nobody
nobody saw it. I pulled up in and then in
the right it's like, hey man, you know my truck
and fair my wife ever made me by many van
and we'll remember. And I was like, um, WHOA. I
(56:57):
didn't realize there was so much identity, I said, tied
to a vehicle. And also you don't even have cows
or anything. And then I was like, also, have you
seen many evans. It's like they are geared. It's like
they're for a band person, or they're so practical, like
the levels at which you put children or cram children
(57:18):
into seats and stuff. It's like perfect and you can
push the button and all this stuff comes up. I
mean I might get a testa one day or something
like that, but then it's not coming anytime soon. Well,
that being said, you were entertaining in every way, and
your arrival you had a British lady. She access granted. Yes,
that's what she said. That's what it is. Access granted. Yes, Look,
(57:42):
Dick follow her at Luke Dick. You guys check out
something's happened. Um. And then also you can still go
and see Red Dog, which you can get on Amazon.
It's Hulu, Hulu, Amazon, but Hulu may be the way
because Hulu you already have the service. Yeah, there you go. Um,
and am it was part of Amazon Prime but anyway,
but you buy it on Amazon Primer, don't you know.
(58:03):
I don't know. Those are like somebody, some mountain in
the sky that make those decisions. That's it. At Luke,
Dick Luke, Thanks Man, thank you,
We'll go to episode three. We'll talk to Luke Dick.
He wrote a bunch of songs for a bunch of people.
He's just a really interesting guy. What was awkward was
when we finished the interview, I walked him out and
as I came in, because I always trying to walk
him out and have a little personal talk with the microphones,
I was like, hey, man, uh, have a good day.
Good luck. And I was like, I don't know why
I said good luck. I'm awkward. I don't know why
(00:23):
I was like good luck. But he wrote, you know,
Eric Church, Randa Lambert, I mean, just such a great songwriter.
Did a documentary, so he was a philosophy professor. Very
interesting guy. Yeah, that's coming up in a minute. All right,
let's go top five songs of the week. Cole Swindell
put out a new song called some Habits. He actually
performed this on the radio show a couple of months
(00:44):
before it was released. Here is that version, because good Berboon,
it's hard to put down that high road, it's hard
to stay And here is the version that is out today,
because good I'm sorry to put down that high road,
sorry to stay on that good look get sorry to
(01:07):
pick up. Mitchell Tinpenny has a new EP out called
Midtown Diaries. Here's a new song called to Us It
did to That's my Town. We ran around He's supposed
to feel. The singer songwriter in this week's guest, Luke
Dick has a new song called Something's Happened That Won't
(01:30):
Do closes, and then another one at number two, Sam Hunt.
He put out a new song called twenty three No
Matter where I Go, no matter what I do, I
don't liverything. Plantic three moving any one but you. And finally,
Casey Musgraves has a new album out called star Crossed.
(01:53):
Here's a new song called Justified just and the one
new story I'll mention. Walker Hayes Fancy Like lands in
the top ten on the Billboard Hot One. I mean
I watched any SEC game, every commercials and Appleby's commercial
(02:15):
and it's him. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. It's wild to
watch how that went from being a viral TikTok to
a massive hit. Like hopefully he gets like pop play
out of this. You know, there you go, enjoy Luke
Dick in just a second. And with Luke Dick, you know,
I've seen many photos of you have friends who have
worked with you. It's just random for me to have
(02:37):
not have met someone until this point because you're a
very established, you know, super well thought up guy. And
our pets haven't crossed, have they? Um? I don't think so.
I'm pretty forgettable, though you are not a forgettable guy.
I'm pretty forgettable hide out, you know. I just got
my little studio and come out, I get eat, I
(03:00):
eat now and again, and then I pick up my
kids and then I get back to doing whatever it
is I'm doing. What is your studio like? Um? You know,
I bought this house right when I moved to Nashville, um,
six or seven years seven years ago, and there was
a garage in the back, and uh, it was unfinished,
(03:21):
and I thought that'd be a great place for just
have something close to the house away from the house.
And so then I put these opaque glass doors so
I could have some light, and put as much of
skylights in and really dressed it up and made it
into a thing. And so that's where I am all
the time. I'm currently looking for another spot of too
many kids. They're beating on the door all the time.
So are you? When you are riding in the shoot.
(03:43):
I assume you do a lot of writing the yeah, yeah,
and you're producing. Are you doing more than just demos? Like,
will you do any like anything for a record in
your spot? Yeah? Um, I I'm working on the next
Miranda Laveryt record right now. We're almost done, and UM,
a lot of this stuff were was UM. When I
(04:05):
do demos, I don't think of them as demos. I
just I'm trying to make something that I love, and
so I put more time and effort into it. And
so maybe some of that stuff makes it onto the record.
It may be the pre production um that we just
drum to. UM. There was a single for Kip More
called the Bowl a few years ago that was just
straight up out of my studio. So I'll do whatever.
(04:27):
How do there? UM? Right now I'm doing a UM
soundtrack for a documentary for it secually the sound bed
composition for the band guir you know, the crazy they're
crazy looking guys sort of. They're actually alien monsters UM,
(04:48):
who populated the human race and then got disgusted with
human beings and so they were really adamant that they
that they get out of here. So anyway, it's the
really their backs. Well, that's the a fictional bad story mythology. Yeah,
the true story is that it was a bunch of
punk kids in Virginia who um, they had a punk
(05:10):
band when him had a punk band. And then this
other guy he was making movies and he had all
these costumes, and the guy said, went on, I just
put on these costumes and will open for our punk
band with this sort of fake metal band. And so
that was how Gore came to be, and then that
band became more popular than their regular band. You mentioned
kipt song The Bull, which which was probably my favorite
(05:33):
song off that project, and I remember talking to Kip
about it because I played it on the radio show
a few times and it may have even went for
a single for a second. He was talking about it
and he called me and he goes, you know, what's
wrong with this song? He said, nothing with what we
did with He said, there are radio This is how
sometimes dumb radio is, because there are radio stations that
are up against stations that are named the Bull and
(05:54):
don't want to play it because it's going to bowl yep,
Like if there's a wolf and I'm just make up
cities and no one in Tucson. There's a there's a
Wolf Country station in a Bull Country station. The Wolf
wouldn't play the song the Bull because they felt like
it was a commercial for the Bull Country station. Yea,
if I wish I had that to do over again,
I would have named it something else. I would never
have thought of that. That booked me off, me off.
(06:17):
Did that story get back to you? Yeah? It did.
It was really um um, so frustrating and a surreal
look at the kind of things that you're up against
to try to make a living as a creative person.
You know, I'm just like, Wow, that is so ridiculous.
But um, okay, I guess I won't eat this year.
(06:41):
I was reading some about kind of your background, more
so than the songwriting, becau. I'm very familiar with the
stuff you've wrote and who you've written with, and we'll
get into that in a bit. But for me, one
of the I would say that coming from a small
town in Arkansas, I'm from a town called Mountaine, Arkansas.
You're from Oklahoma, so we kind of similar sensibilities for
we sure, And when I went to college and I
(07:02):
studied philosophy, it just kind of wrecked me in the
best way. And I grew up in a really small town,
had extreme values. And then I started to learn while
there's more, uh, there are deeper thoughts available for me
than I've ever tried to think about. And again it
(07:22):
scared me, It wrecked me. I grew. But then when
I read that you went off and we're an adjunct
philosophy professor, how does that happen? And and when did
that happen in your life when you were just so
moved by philosophy. That's a funny coincidence, um, that you
studied philosophy. But um, I in high school, my teachings
(07:46):
would feed me stuff that they thought that I would
be interested in, and it wasn't philosophy. It was just
weren't thoughtful literatures. UM. I had to do some stuff
on the Transcendentalist Henry David throw and Emerson I had
in the ninth grade and tenth grade, and teachers would
sort of funnel me toward that. Um. But then when
I got into college, UM, I was studying music business
(08:08):
for a hot minute, and then like after I half
a semester, this teachers like, well, in order to tour
with Roy Clark in Russia, you have to dot dot dot,
and I'm just like, I'm so out on this, you
know how, touring in Russia with Roy Clark that just
sounds so like this is our starting point, you know,
for whatever. And I'm in Oklahoma and I'm like this.
(08:31):
This was like okay, I'm heading my bed. So I
let him in a band and I'll just do this
music business. Maybe I'll be an executive or whatever. I'm like,
this is trash. I'm not doing this. And so then
I had this history professor I loved in the philosophy
professor that I loved, and I just started. There was
a double major, and in philosophy it was just interesting
questions that I thought of, um a little bit, very
(08:55):
very cursory manners as a high schooler and sort of
in your brain comes online, and just a philosophy to
me became. At first it was like this magical thing
that could give me all the answers. And then it
was like very clearly not that. It was just this
framework for thinking about the questions of freedom, does freedom exist?
(09:15):
Is there such a thing as good? How do you
measure good? Um? How do we have thoughts at all? Um?
Sort of even before psychology and sort of the history
of all that and the history of intellectual thought and
at all, and I became really interested in it. It
was really difficult to um and I was given all
but given up on music. And I moved to New
(09:37):
York and I had a master's. Then I was like, well,
I'll get a PhD. And uh, that'll be my job.
You know, it's good, you get a pension whatever. I
had a kid, and I couldn't you know, I was
had artistic aspirations, but my kid, it's like I can't
really tour, you know. And so anyway, about the time
that I said I'm gonna get a PhD, I started
(09:58):
making money, you know, uh, doing spec music for ads
and all this, and I was still making my own music,
making my own songs, and kind of that was that, Um,
I found a way to be a middle class citizen
with music. And that was always the goal, even as
a ten year old. You know, you never had dreams
of being a college professor when a massive university. It
(10:22):
was never a massive university when I was at you know,
when when the kind of the dream, the first little
rock and roll band he had died, I was like,
I really like it was this little liberal arts school
in Oklahoma City, and I loved it. And I was like, well,
I could come back here and I'd be one of
the two philosophy professors here. And it seemed like such
a sweet life. You know. You get up and you
go to school and you teach, and then you go
(10:44):
have a lunch and then you come back and have
a meeting or whatever. Um, and that seemed like a
a dream to me, you know. I mean I was
the first kid in my family to get an education
at all, So um, that seemed, um like almost a
Disney story to me. But then, um, I mean, because
(11:06):
there's nobody I don't know Mountain what did you say,
Mountain time population? Yeah, yeah, the the town that I
grew up in once my mom moved us out of
the country. Um, it was the closest town was fifteen people,
but we were twenty miles away from that, so it
was just like just a community of houses, you know,
(11:27):
the closest neighbors like a mile away or something. And
so I don't think. I think maybe the only person
in Cobra, Oklahoma to ever have a philosophy degree, I
don't know the two things that and we can get
off this in a second. But I really get to
talk philosophy because I know nothing. I mean now sound
like soccertse but I literally know nothing. And so but
(11:47):
the things that just rattled me was I remember reading
Mark Twain's That Damn Human Race about morality and if
that morals are bad, if we didn't know, if we
didn't have bad, who didn't have good, wouldn't have bad?
Like if there was no such thing as good, we've
created good, there wouldn't be bad if there wasn't good.
And animals don't have morals, and they're not good or
(12:08):
bad or evil, they're living. And I remember being like,
I'm not supposed to think about this, but feeling guilty.
And then I read The Cave, which I don't know
if you taught the Cave at all, the allegory of
the cave, yes, And I remember thinking, because it's, you know,
two people trapped in the bottom of cave. All they
can sees fire on a wall, and the whole world
is what they can see. And I remember, and one
of them is freed and is able to go outside
and come back in, and he's able to tell the
(12:28):
other guy I saw that, But the other guy his
only known existence is looking at that fire on the wall,
and he's like, there's no way that's true. And I'm
and I'm like, who else has left the cave? I'm
the guy. I'm the guy that's only seen the fire.
And that's a very brief interpretation of that. But I
just remember thinking, I am never going to like look
at earth or the world or more than the earth
the same After that, Well, it's kind of an utter objectivity,
(12:51):
you know, and you have to shake your own cultural
notions of reality and stuff like that. Um. I a
lot of people really um an idea that there are
no such things as morals or something like this, and
that we've created it all. That's scary to a lot
of people. UM. To me, it's like this weird thing
where um or fate, for instance, you know that you
(13:14):
were I was destined to be this. I always try
not to say things like that, because if I was
destined to be this, then it could be no other way,
and that means that I'm not free, and to be
not free sounds like the most scary thing to me.
Destiny is the opposite of freedom. Destiny is kind of
the opposite of freedom to me, or if there is
such a thing as uh, you know, predestination or something
(13:35):
like that, that all the decisions are made or known somewhere.
It's like, oh no, you know, Um, that doesn't sound
that doesn't sound fun. That sounds like a schedule. I
was doing a little more research on because my my
vision and version of you has been the last ten
years or so. Um. But it seemed like for a
(13:57):
while you weren't writing music for a while. Now you're back,
Like why why why did you quit? I wouldn't say quit.
Why did you take a break? And what brought you back? Yeah? Um,
i'm um, I'm I came to Nashville for a minute
and I just didn't have any luck. You know. I
was trying I was made a record, I was trying
(14:19):
to get in a deal. There are things stacked against me,
just logistically in terms of being a single dad and
stuff like this, and so I didn't And also people
weren't responding in a way. There were outliers, you know
that had some clouds or something that I really love
what you do, blah blah blah blah. But I was like,
this never amounted to anything, and it wasn't like people
(14:42):
were picking up my songs, and I'm like, I cle
either don't know how to do this, I'm not savvy enough,
or or it's just not good enough or something like that.
Did you never think you're ahead of your time? Uh?
That's um, I think that like looking back and list
thing to the record that I made, that's what it
sounds like to me. But I also don't want to
(15:04):
be um, um have delusions of grandeur or something like that.
It's just like music is important to me, but it's
also just a snippet of life and reality and it's
a big part. You know, it's a big part. It
gives me a lot of joy. Um, But I also
don't want to think in terms like I have a
hard time think thinking in terms of that that you're
(15:25):
ahead of your time and that's why it didn't work
or whatever. And but then whatever whatever is and it
didn't work, and so I left. And then my current
publisher called me when I was in New York and um,
he said, hey, do you have any songs for Dirk
Spentley And I'm and I just said no. Um. I
(15:47):
I mean literally everything that I've written has been in
falsetto and also about the afterlife. For some sort of
afterlife adventure. I mean it's too fantastical and whimsical for
Derek's I just don't thank you for calling me, um,
but he will just look me up if you've ever
in town. And then one thing led to another in
(16:08):
a few years went by and we met and um
for coffee and he's like, you need to come right
with me and at this company, and UM, you need
to be writing with Eric, and you don't need to
be doing what you think you should be doing. You
should be doing what you want to do and hits
will fall out of that, I promise you, And and
he was he was right, UM. And so between him
(16:36):
and getting in the right rooms and having just the
opportunity to show somebody like Eric Church song or an
idea for a song, UM, that led to a lot
of things. And Kip was a big proponent early on too.
It was like I didn't have any hits and he
was coming over because he liked the sounds coming out
of my studio and I would we would work on stuff,
and I think it was the Wild Ones record. I
(16:57):
got a couple of songs on there and we just worked. UM.
But then Eric and then Natalie him by and I
started writing together and it was like almost like we
fed off of each other's creativity, and so we were
like trying to not one up each other. It was
like us like pushing each other, like trying to make
each other like smile or get excited about a song.
(17:18):
And so we'd bring in an idea or a sound
or something like that, and that was a real joy.
And then she would also sing my praises. It was like,
I probably owe here a hundred grand and pr fees
you know around town. Brought Miranda into the room and
that became a relationship, um, and it's meant a lot
of joy and a lot of songs with her, But
(17:39):
it was that was kind of the beginning of it.
It was running into a publisher, um who believed in
what I did naturally, instead of trying to curb it
um to meet a market demand or something like that.
And that's not really where I shine anyway. And I
find that if I feel like my cat in a
corner when I'm writing a song, then it's usually not
gonna be all some It's going to be an average
(18:01):
kind of thing day or whatever. I've talked to Miranda
and Cassie Ashton, Natalie him Be, those that you mentioned there,
and they all say the same thing about you is
that you know, you're very out of the box and
with ideas. I mean, that's that's the easy way to
describe you to people who don't have to write songs
like Um, do you feel like you're known as the
out of the box guy? I mean yeah, I mean
(18:25):
I don't feel like I love Ashley Gourly, but I don't.
I don't think that I have that kind of potential.
Um in terms of commercial success is Ashley Gorely? Because
I feel like there's like five artists at any given
time that might be interested in what I'm doing because
it doesn't fit subject matter, The subject might not fit
(18:46):
into the way that they see the market. UM. But
I honestly, UM, I am just trying to get ideas
that make me excited to write the song. UM. And
also it's it's not so serious, you know. I mean,
there are plenty of songs that aren't don't necessarily have
to be serious. UM, I don't know, pink sunglasses or
(19:06):
something like that. Um, that's really fun, that's really joyous, right,
I think in the indie rock band I have Hey,
Steve is all about this sort of but digging in
weird to weird pop culture, but also having fun while
you're doing it and being, um, what's the word, um,
self deprecating a little bit. Um, I don't know. That's
(19:28):
to me. Country has a sweet spot for self deprecation
too that I really love me. It's it's been a
part of the history of country. Um. But anyway, that's
a long way around. Um Am, I the out of
the box guy. I feel like, just maybe objectively, yes, um,
it doesn't feel like it. It feels it's all in
my head, so it feels like it's mine. It's my
(19:48):
own box. So I'm just like, yeah, this is what
would be cool, and everybody else is like, why would
you do that? I mean I've pitched songs ideas before
that were hits that people were like, what does that mean?
Why you did you do that? Or something like that.
It's like that it goes on to be a number one.
Do you you seem like a guy that would need
an aesthetic in our room? There's your studio have an
(20:09):
aesthetic where people they're like, this is the look dick aesthetic? Yeah,
it's there. There's definitely. I mean I did a re
upt it a little bit over COVID, but you know,
I have objects that I love or that are close
to me. And the color scheme was just like asolutely
beautiful mustard wall. And then you know a painting that
(20:30):
this painting that I saw, it was just these like
birds in the midst you know. And it's like things
that aren't, things that aren't that are impressionistic. I guess
that are aren't particular things that are are art wise
in the studio, I don't like having awards up on
the wall. That's that's the past that seems I don't
(20:50):
always never made me. It never made me feel good
to walk in and see awards. And it felt like
something as he walked up fireplace out there with fourtive
creative to create a space. But but then just things
that you like, things that make you feel good. Do
you love it? Or is it beautiful? Isn't that a
question about the aesthetic of an interior? Does it do
you love it? Um? Is it beautiful? Is it functional?
(21:13):
Those kind of questions? Um? But then colors, I really
love colors. And so the one wall is this really
deep navy ish kind of Hugh and then the back
wall is this sort of mustard color and all this
greenery and stuff like that, great things that live and breathe,
you know. Um. But yeah, I always it's important to
(21:36):
me to feel good in a space, um, and a
songwriting space is pretty intimate, you know. I mean, you're
around somebody for six hours, and usually if you're in
this business, there's some sensitivity about you, and so you
never know what you're gonna end up talking about. And
I mean I remember one day it was me and
Laura Belts and Jesse Joe Dillon, and we sat down
(21:56):
and it seemed like, um to two thirds of the
people were having you know, um sort of turmoil at
the time, and so it was his outpour of you know,
the oh my God and this and this and this
and I can't believe it that that and this, and
it was really heartfelt. It was a safe space, you know.
And then and then we broke for lunch and came
(22:17):
back and wrote this song called Tattoo, which is this
super flippant song about about wishing that you were a
tattoo because you could be on somebody seven and so
it would be turned into this thing. But to have
a space that welcomes that kind of openness. Um, that's
what I hope for. I feel like that's some really
(22:37):
good stuff can happen, either either something with depth or
something you know, surface level. UM. Fun, it's um, it's all. Um,
it's all necessary to me. When you started writing with Eric,
(22:57):
was he already have success or was it early on?
It was the Mr M Mr Misunderstood record, So he'd
had him a serious amount of success by the time
I was writing with him. So you you start writing
with him, I mean to you as a creative, is
that intimidating to write with him? Or is it kind
of refreshing because he also, you know, win a different
(23:19):
angle at his success. Yeah. I was in New York
and when I was living there, they somebody showed me,
um smoke a little smoke and they said, have you
heard this? And I listened to him like like, is
this what they're doing in Nashville now? And UM, it
(23:39):
gave me how you know that that there could be um,
something creatively interesting, sonically interesting. UM. And I feel like people,
I feel like Jay Joey's kind of paved the way
sonically for somebody like me to be here. UM. I really,
UM have a lot of gratitude for what they with
(24:02):
those two have done together. Um, it's no small feat
to break in with a different sound. And but but
to more point at your question, a little bit better, UM,
there's always a bit of intimidation. It doesn't matter how
how successful or not commercially successful the artist is coming in.
(24:23):
So but that was, you know, the first chance at
and at an a list situation UM for me to
prove myself for whatever. Um. But I had sent him
this idea um to be my publisher that he loved,
and you know, there was it was already was killed
a word, and there was already an idea happening there.
(24:44):
And the in the first stands and refrained and he's like,
I love this, Let's finish it. And so he came
in and we finished that and then it was like
it took us like an hour to finish the song.
And then he it was me and him and Jeff
Hyde who plays in his band too, who's a great writer.
And then he had the idea for around here buzz,
and so he kind of had a hill around here,
(25:06):
buz buzz, and so then we just sort of took
off on that and it just felt natural. Once you
get into everybody's a human, you know, it's like there's
no I don't know, there's no there. There's different kinds
of magic, two different human beings, you know, UM and
different and and Eric is definitely somebody with UM a
(25:28):
special kind of charisma and a special kind of UM
creative UM capacity and and uh intellect to me, UM,
but as a human being or trying to impress another
human or something like that, it's like, look, you know,
we all woke up today, we all needed breakfast and
all that stuff. So let's just you try to put
(25:51):
stardom or something like that out of your head. UM.
I tried to UM and not be UM. I guess
motivated or or dissuaded or felt feel insecure around UM
that kind of a status. I'm trying to think if
there was somebody that I'd be so star struck that
it would be difficult to write with UM. Uh you
(26:15):
know Tom Waits, I don't know, UM kind of sound
like Tom Waits right now when you're talking. I'm Bob Dylan.
I guess you know, if you had to go write
a song with Bob Dylan, that would probably be one
of the most intimidating things situation. Um, I remember, this
is not an intimidating person. But this guy came over
(26:36):
and he was an Englishman and he had these hits
in the eighties, these pop rockets, and they were really good,
good ones. And I kept playing like guitar stuff and
he's like, uh, he'd look at me and go and
that's not very inspiring, is it. What do you do
to that? You know? I'm just like, what do you got?
(26:57):
And he's like, here's a list. I'm more of a rist.
Here's here's a list of titles. And the titles are
like all night long, all night, all of everything. And
I'm just like, I kidding me, what is this? Are you?
Are you a lyric or melody guy at heart? When
you start to write, I can't separate them, really, you know. Um,
(27:23):
when Natalie, it's different for different rooms. When I get
around Natalie and I have a medal at melody already
with something and with the phrasing, and she wants to
change the melody, I usually defer to her because I
really believe in her abilities to make a melody. Um.
There are a few other people like that that when
they say, man, I think this melody could be better.
(27:44):
I'm like, all right, let's check it, let's scrap it,
let's see what's up. Um, but it all I really
want to marry it all because you can't just send
somebody the lyrics to a song and expect it to
speak to them off of a page. I mean, there's
a whole thing happening there. It's like this. The beauty
of um music or songs in general, is that there's
(28:06):
a sound, there's a you know, there's a chord progression,
there's a lyric, and there's a melody on top of it.
So it's hard for me to say that I'd be
one thing. Um, when you write, are you writing based
on will you just chase lyrics or will you sometimes
just create a melody and then cert lyrics into it later?
Both Um both Um said, Laura Els does this to me.
(28:29):
I hope she's listening right now, because when we write,
I'll be I'll turn around and I'll start try to
get the track going. You know, it's like, okay, we
got the first first, let me just put a little
bass part in here. I'll turn around. The Laura is
such a prolific lyricist that she'll be done with the second. First,
I'm like, wait a minute, I like this song. Can
I participate? Please? You hold on to you know, have
(28:50):
a have a story, eat some chips or something, and
let me do this bass part contribute UM. But there
have been times UM, that the melody has come first.
You know. It's like, you know, you start playing UM
and something will just spill out of you, and then
you just work around the vowels. The vowels might lead
(29:13):
you to a phrase or something like that, you know, UM.
I read the Keith Richard's book and he talked about
the way that they did that, and it's I don't
think it's uncommon to do that, UM life. That's the
book from Keith Richards, And he said, I think I
can't he had a name for it, you know, the
way that they do it. But it's you know, you're
just playing a chord and you're oww had and so
(29:35):
then whatever value sing that feels the most natural, you
might lean toward a word with that vowel sound UM,
and then it and then you have to work the
concept around the vowel sound or something like that. You know,
it's a really songwriting's really weird. But um, I do
find that when I listened to songs and I feel
(29:57):
like that's a good melody, those are the wrong vowel
sounds or something. You know. I'm like, I can't understand
the lyric. It's not the lyrics not sticking out to
me because the it's all mushed in there in a way,
and the vowels aren't popping in the there's too many
words or too many, too not enough words, so there's
like an economy, and that's all subjective to right. It's
just like, is that sounds too like too many words
(30:19):
to me? Um, it doesn't sound like too many words
to that artist or that person singing it. I'm gonna
compare you as a lyrict system a songwriter to Eminem,
which you may have never been compared to. But WHOA.
When I listened to Eminem, he bends rhymes. Sometimes he
doesn't rhyme, but still rhymes. And a lot of or
(30:40):
at least some of your writing you don't even chase
a rhyme. There just aren't rhymes where there should be
where traditionally rhymes are. I shouldn't say should be right, Yeah,
there aren't rhymes were traditionally rhymes are yeah. Yeah. Is
that purposeful on your part to not put rhymes there
or is it just purposeful to put those words there
(31:00):
and they just don't happen to rhyme. I feel like, Um,
when you get down to it, it's like, especially if
you're chasing a lyric, and it's like, is this lyric working?
Is this idea working? You just run with it, um,
And then it's I don't want to say it's not intentional. UM.
(31:22):
Like the way to say it's not it's not my
intention to say every song needs to rhyme like this,
or let's try some rhymes in the middle of this
of this phrase is rather than at the end of
the phrases, which is typical. UM. I feel like you
just all you're left with in any creative endeavor is
(31:43):
your own esthetic intuition and you have to go with
what moves you. And when any time, I mean, there's
been a countless artist that come in and we end
up with a song that I don't care about, um,
And that's okay because they're saying, no, I don't want
to do this because I want to do that, And
I'm like, well, that does nothing in my head, you know,
or heart or whatever. I'm like, that doesn't do anything
(32:04):
for me. But it's your career, you know, it's your
artistic impulse that you're chasing. So chase it then, um,
And I hope that. I hope it works if I
like you and the demo to kill a word? Yeah,
which is you singing? Which we have it right here? Well,
like play a little bit out it here, I put
(32:26):
up sit down in its place. I squeezed the laugh
out of disgrace, lay over under six cold Yeah, yeah,
so steal that. We were at your house last night,
(32:48):
so much about your studio broken last night. So change
the code? Is it a How prevalent is it that
if you're writing with or for, like an Eric, that
that person doesn't sing the demo? And is that purposeful?
So the demo doesn't get out with his voice on it?
(33:10):
It wasn't purposeful. He just said, put your put your
vocal on. I like what you're doing. I'm out, Um,
do do your thing. I want to hear what you do. Um.
And then there's sometimes where, especially if it's a female artist,
where where I'm less inclined to go do a vocal
on it. Um. And for a couple of reasons. One
(33:34):
is a shrewd. You know. It's like, if they just
hear a dude on there, then it sounds like a
dude song, you know. But if you write it with
the artist who's female, and then another female artist the
other the other excuse me, the other female writer, if
the other female writer sings it, it makes more sense
to me. But I don't like, really if I feel
like it shoots you in the foot a little bit,
(33:56):
unless it's somebody like Miranda that we know each other
well enough to where it's not like she's like, oh,
this sounds like she can hear through that stuff. I
trust her to hear through that stuff. But generally, if
an artist is there, um, and especially if it's an
artist that I don't work with that often, I'm gonna
try to get them to sing it because I want
to hear what they sound like on it too. If
I and also see if you face if you did
(34:18):
okay or you didn't. What I mean by that is,
sometimes you write all these melodies. You write this song
and somebody sings on it just doesn't sound good, you know.
And so if you're off the mark in terms of
a melodic structure or something like that you'll be able
to hear it when they get on the microphone. It's
like they're not really capable of singing that, or they
are really great at it, or it's kind of in
the middle. Maybe we shouldn't have gone that high and
(34:39):
you change the key, those kind of technical decisions like that.
So it's if it's a if they're if we're the
only writers in the room. Oftentimes I get tasked with
singing the singing the demo on it, and I'm generally
I'm happy to do that. It's fun to me. It's
a creative endeavor, especially if I love the song. Well,
(35:00):
Bluebird comes out and it's a massive radio success, and
I think it was the first massive radio song from
Randon a long time. I remember saying that, like, you know,
she'd just had a record that that double album I
had done so wonderful, but it didn't translate into singles.
But Bluebird comes and just crushes. It's the number one
and was one two Grammys. Um no, we nominated for
(35:23):
two Grammys. Did you go? That was when the COVID
was happening, So you still know. I bought a suit
in my closet. It sits so you didn't even put
it on for the night of that we're doing it
on on the internet on no. So is that cool
to you to be nominated for a Grammy or is
it to you? Is that just a piece of metal
that represents and what disrepresentation? Even me, I would I
(35:46):
would really be lying if I didn't say that I
would not want to win a Grammy. I mean I
would love to say that I want a Grammy. Um.
Sometimes I catch myself, you know, when you win something,
and it's like, I'm always thankful to win something. Um,
there is a truth for me to the the fact
(36:06):
that when you write a song like that that was
really meaningful to you, that nothing compares to the day
that you wrote it with your friends and then you
heard the and then you played it back and you
heard and you sang on it and you listen to
demo and you get excited about it. Nothing compares to
that joy. Winning awards is Um, it's another like just
(36:27):
kind of hurrah. At the end, you know that you're
the hard work and the beauty, the beautiful work is
already done. And Amy Taylor calls it the pudding. You
know you've already eaten the meat. And all that stuff,
and pudding is nice, you know, but you don't need it.
You're already full kind of um of everything that said.
If the Grammy, any Grammy voters are out there, if
(36:49):
I'm out for anything next year, please vote for me.
One of my favorite songs from you as Velvet Elvis,
Oh yeah, from Casey. Do you ever have an idea
(37:12):
for a song or a title like Velvet Elvis and
have to google and see if it's been done because
it just sounds so perfect and you're like, surelie, somebody's
done this before. Um, that will happen sometimes. And if
it's like something obscure somewhere, it's like the titles aren't
um copy written. So and also it's like again, um uh,
(37:34):
lionel richis you know, all Night Long? And then Beyonce
had a song called all Night It was great, um so,
but something like Velvet Elvis. To me, that's a little
trickier one. Now. And I have wrote a song called
Taxidermy and it's it's like from Casey, yeah, And I
was like, yeah, you know, you can't. You know. It's
(37:56):
like we've had a few artists that come in and
it's just like, do you want to. I got this
title called, um, I Can't Make You Love Me? And
I was just like, you know, or a blackbird. You know,
it's like you can't there's something about those I don't
know that you can do again. Um I would I
(38:18):
would scratch my head if somebody came out with Bluebird
again in the next couple of years, you know, at
least in the genre of country for sure. Um, So
people don't normally do that. I have got I've caught myself.
I had a title one time called don't Don't It?
(38:39):
And I wrote it, and then a week later, Billy
Currington comes out with a song called Don't and and
so I was like, there's a waste of twelve hours.
Did you go back and try to find another angle?
Rename it? It's called do it Now. Anybody is out
(39:00):
there listening and wants to cut it, you can email
my publisher and will send it right up. You've got
two or three singles so far from Miranda's newest record.
Do you kind of know where she's leaning when a
project is done? Like I really feel like these that
we wrote could be singles? Or do you just sit
and guests with everybody else? I kind of guess with
(39:20):
everybody else. You know, I feel I feel it in
my heart, you know, and I feel like that could
be something big. But then there's so many people who
make those decisions because I don't know, because what because whatever?
But um, you know, there are people at the label
who have an idea, and the promo people at the
radios and all this. You know, it's just like it's
(39:43):
that's another game. It's it's real difficult for me to
get wrapped up in unless I want even more anguished
than the than the music business deals out, you know,
So I try to chill out, um on not It's
not that I don't hope that I have singles because
I want, you know, songs that I believe in to
(40:03):
be heard. Um, but I do, um try to maintain
some kind of mindfulness res in around what's happening behind
the scenes, because I don't think I've changed anything one time.
You know, it's like, oh if I just told them this,
or you know, sort of some kind of various right
(40:24):
from Game of Thround, some kind of whisper you know,
the scene it's making things happen. It's like, that's not
my game. What about if you cut a song like
you like Derek's cut the Mountain, what you guys wrote
and so you right the mountain, he cuts the mountain
and then it becomes the title track. Now, to some
people that's great because the whole project, maybe the tour
(40:45):
is named after it could be a single. But to
some people it's I'll know it's the title track that
will never be a single. Well, you know, I don't know.
That's a great that's a great um set of facts
to figure out. Are there is there any title of
a wreck that's ever been a hit? Like recently it
was well, okay, I'm just thinking I'm going right now,
(41:08):
brothers Osborne have a single now because this is the
record called um it's like it's like you're not like
us and it's also their single. Yeah, yeah, not everyone.
We're not for everyone? Is that the name I wrote that? Yeah,
it's not for everyone? Okay, never mind, never mind, But
you wrote that, you wrote that Rose Osbourne song with
(41:30):
the yeah, maybe it's the tour. Okay, that's what it is.
That is called that We're not for everyone to tours
Tours are a plus name and getting it. There was
a burning Man tour. For a minute, I get that
was good when um, I'm trying to figure out. Yeah,
(41:53):
And that's something we should look at too, because most
people act like they don't like it if the record
is named after the song they wrote. But I don't
know if it's just some fallacy that has now happening.
I'm ready to break it now. I'm just like, I
don't even care about that rules, like that's surely there's
a way around that. You want to call Dirk's right
now and the mountain, Yeah, put out the mountain. I
(42:14):
know you're two two singles past that record, but let's
go back. You did why, I mean, what's who's to
say you can't? There are no there are rules, no more.
You know Lizzo did that. It was like I was
loving on Lizzo. Know, Maddie and Tay turned me on too. Lizzo. Um,
this was in the two thousand and sixteen or something
like that, and I got so into it and then
(42:36):
I was like, man, these are bangers. And then she
I don't know what happens, but she has a song
is big, and she gets has a moment and then
they just start releasing everything as singles. Is everything starts
going as radio that we're four or five years old.
Because they're so awesome. I was like, see, there's no rules,
there's no rules, you can do anything. Yeah, and Dirk
put out the Mountain, Yeah, hurt Yeah, Dark put out
(42:57):
the Mountain. When you're listening, Uh yeah, hest that's a
wild story because even why get great? What I mean
that was an old song? Yeah? Yeah yeah yeah and
Teman now feel good. Yeah we're pure melody. Right, we're
both melody guys. Right now, Derk's Britlan Hardy beers on Me,
(43:18):
which is the single right now, Swing bold Ever, spend
on your mad bottles, all that don't feel good, Standard
Time Card's on the car. You've got nowhere to be
if you don't come through, Buddy, that song you because
(43:38):
the pears all me. So you haven't. You have a
song that's out today Friday, because this will be heard
on Friday. Uh, something's happened. And so this is not
from your documentary. It's a whole new thing. So is this?
I'm so over that documentary? Are you? I'm kidding? You
(44:01):
just gotta keep making stuff, you know what, I don't know?
You just keep making stuff, keep creating and feeling good
and hopefully something else and if it doesn't keep going.
But what you're now You put out Something's Happened, which
is not Hey Steve, which is not the documentary. This
is a you. It feels like a country Okay, so
(44:22):
what's the why? Why now? Why this? I just honestly, Um,
I'd put out Polyester, which was part of the track,
and um, people gravitated toward it and and they're like, um,
why don't you putting out more songwriter of your stuff
(44:43):
from Nashville songwriting? And I said, that's a great question.
I mean I have a lot of songs that I love.
And so then I was like, I'm just gonna put
together a record. I don't care how long it takes.
I'll just put together a record. And um, I mean
this will be a part of the record. And when
will the record come out? I don't know. March. How
(45:05):
about March? That sounds good for now? Yeah, you have
me back in in March. I want to talk about it.
Do you want to tour? Yeah? I want a tour.
Well you said earlier you know you couldn't because of
the kid. Yeah, but now can't you know, well, you
know things are different. You know you can the way
that the country tours, you can go out and play, Um,
(45:27):
Steve will do thirty or forty shows a year. Um,
if we were rocked through this festival season, um and
play a few festivals, it's it's um, hey Steve playsty
shows a year. Yeah. Wow, yeah, I mean that's a
touring schedule itself. Yeah kind of Well why do you
say that? I mean even if you just going out
(45:48):
for three days, you know here there ten times listen,
I get it. That the country tour and you know,
alternative pop tour all different animals. Yeah, thirty forty days.
Will being a professional right or doing it as much
as you do it, that's a significant amount of work.
It is a significant amount of work. Um. But the okay,
this is always this has been the recurring theme of
(46:10):
my career. Um. Do you do you want to play
for people? Yes? And then there then then life gives
you all these caveats, um, logistical caveats. Do you want
to also go right with Derek's for three or four days? Yes?
Do you need you want to go um to your
kids spelling b Yes? And so I've luckily found a
(46:34):
management team who understand um the fluid um concept of
my schedule and UM it it works. You know. It's
like I put together a living Um, I'm able to
go play and if you know there's a good opening
(46:55):
gig or like Steve's doing some hard tickets, we could
do hard if hard ticket dates and play a few
festivals and UM have a good time. It's like, UM,
and I don't know, life is that's what I want
to do, you know, it's it brings me joy and
so you go do it. And also when you see people,
(47:15):
when you're playing for people and the songs do something
for you and you see them in the environment of
a live show, which is really kind of where music.
UM is the benchmark to me for what music is.
Um it's a communal thing, you know, it's not just
headphones for people. UM. There was it was a switch
(47:37):
flipped in me a few years ago. Was just playing
with a guitar and being able to tell stories and
and have a moment with with people. UM. And then
Steve is a whole different piece where it's just a
sort of crazy UM rock a slave live show. UM.
And and like Catact three had, we opened the Rhymean
for them last week and it was, UM so such
(47:59):
a ratic experience. I've never played the rhymeman before, and
to do it opening for a country band with an
indie rock band, Um, this sort of absurdist twist. You know,
it's really fun. I appreciate your ability to try to
save breaths by not saying hey in front of Hey
Steve like your I mean, you keep calling Steve, Yeah Steve,
I mean, I like, I like that you guys have
(48:20):
really abbreviated. It's a it's a big difference. I mean, breath.
We called it Steve for a while, and my manage
that said we can't do this anymore because every time
Steve Aoki really it really was Steve. I was just like, uh, um,
(48:41):
all right, I get it. Fine, practicalities. Here is a
clip of Run through the City because it read our
guy shooting video over there. He went to read where
(49:04):
did you go to his show? It was at the
Basement East And when you went, how were you put
on to Steve? Hey, Steve, Actually, somebody's a mine. We're
opening for you, Joey Broaden out. Oh yeah they were awesome.
Yeah yeah, the ladder out there, Yeah, they're they're crazy, man.
So I went to go see them and then Steve
(49:25):
threw it down. It was amazing, and he said he
came back and was like, I had to google it.
It was like, wait, it's the same guy. It's like
you live in two different lives. Though. Yeah, um it's
you know, haste is pretty cathartic sort of situation where um,
it sounds like you wake up from It's like if
you had like an Internet bender or something like that,
(49:48):
and you wake up from it and like you just
sort of these are the lyrics, you know, sort of
stream of conscious streaming consciousness lyrics, but you're also having
a really good time while you're doing it. It's kind
of the the vibe I wrote to a couple of
the songs he were settling down, which I thought it
should have been a number one. I mean it was,
(50:09):
it was ready, it was right there. What happened? Don't
hey listen. I don't know if people blame me for STEF,
I have nothing to do with the programming. Ready, and
they throw some songs around me and that's the day
what happened. But I was I really felt like that
song will be one of hers though, that it doesn't
matter what number it was, it will hang out and
be a people don't know was number one or not? Right? Yeah, yeah,
(50:32):
let's see pink sunglasses. What you mentioned earlier, which she did,
this is maybe the c M May Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
One of my favorite moments was looking out and Jada
Pinkett was rocking out. She had the glasses on. She
was just like stoically nodding. You mentioned Dirks and he
did Bernie Man Tour, which is you wrote Burnie Man.
(50:54):
And then he did The Mountain, which you had. The
album was called The Mountain. You had both he had
the tour ended. Yeah, yeah, I wish I made money
from that. Like if you're if you put your title
on the side of a freighter, you can't trade market
title and it's tour now is beers on me? Yeah? Yeah, anytime,
I don't know, somebody, there's some lawyers listening out there.
(51:14):
If you guys would just figure out how to make
people pay like a quarter every time they see the
side of a truck. I I'm such a Cassie Ashton fan. Yeah,
she's great, Like I think she is kind of the
undiscovered like she may have been. And I hate to
just use this term, but we were just saying in
a few minutes ago, slightly ahead of her time because
she was very progressive and she's already gonna be sitting
(51:36):
there ready when it gets to her. Yeah, she's she's
such an artist and just a creator music. Obviously, she
could sing, she makes clothes like crazy. I feel like
there's such a spirit to her, and so she's like
the untapped that one day it's going to just be
massive from her totally. I feel that Taxidermy you mentioned
(51:57):
that one. Here's the clip of that. I mean, what
a jam? What a jam? Violence? I mean, you have
so many we're not we can't do them all. But
you know you have a song that's out today that
when people to check out and the record come I
any day. Let's just say that the whole album good,
come I any day. So check this song and just
(52:20):
and every day look back. Yeah, and then and then
let's make it awesome. And then if Kenny Chesney wants
to cut it two, he can go cut it. Would
any of the songs that you put on your album
be available if someone wants to also cut it and
put it out. Yes, nice to see that's one word. Yes,
would you cut for this album any of the songs
(52:40):
you've written for other people that you love so much.
I feel um, maybe not that have been released not
I feel like, you know, people have heard that enough.
I feel like there could be more. So you take
us so is extremely different. I know you say that,
and you've been involved in the intricacies of writing the
(53:02):
early stages. Maybe not in the studio and all of
them or any of them, but I feel like you
have such a different style on vibe to it. Yeah,
you mean the record if you were to. I'll give
you an example. Nico Moon, who wrote a lot with
Zach Brown. Yeah, he wrote, um, I got some home homegrown, Yeah,
and we wrote it with Zach. But Zach put it
on He's like, that's not how he wrote it. He's like, well,
(53:24):
I wrote it like this, and he enjoys Zack's version,
but he puts it out and it's kind of oh,
who wh whoa Okay, do you picture any of those
songs like that? Are you just? You know, it's funny
because a lot of the songs that end up on
people's records are are either like maybe I produced it
or partly produced it, or played some stuff on it
and it came from my demo or something. So It's like,
(53:44):
I don't know what I would do differently, you know,
in terms of because it was I feel like the
creative the Sonic creative stamp was already on there. So
it's kind of tricky to me to go in there.
It's like, oh yeah, they just took you know, Eric's
voice off and just put Luke's voice on it. It's like,
I don't you know, I want to do that, do something.
It's there's plenty more songs to write, plenty more songs, right,
(54:06):
You guys can also check out Red Dog, which is
your documentary. Oh yeah, yeah, do you make any money
off that? I I think I've broken even on it.
That's a win. Yeah, it is a win. It was
a labor of love. And so it's like when you
really do the balance sheet on everything, Well, I drove
here and I drove there, and I you know, chicken
(54:27):
tenders here, whatever. You know, you start racking it up
and um, and it's expensive to make movies and it
was just me and a couple of other people making it. Um.
But yeah, we finally, I think we finally broke even.
And it's but more than that, to me, it's like
(54:48):
the email boxes are kind of flooded with stories and
stuff from people who watched the film. And I had
a similar childhood, or I had a child that was
kind of like this and it was just like this,
and then my dad was in the biker gang and
blah blah blah blah ba and UM. And all that
to say is that I people found it meaningful. I
found it meaningful doing it. I knew. I didn't ever
think I was gonna get rich off making that. UM.
(55:11):
I always just found that it was an interesting place
to be creative. UM. And once I started doing it,
it was really exciting to me. And also it was
really fun to make music around that. UM, to make
music to create an experience that UM with an intention. UM.
So that was UM where it really kind of was
a concept record that the the concept was the film,
(55:33):
you know, and that was Polyester and Blazer. We're both
off of that. That's right here we go. It's almost
like we're prepared. There. We it's going over there singing alright,
new song. Now today, something's happened. We've spent an hour here. Uh,
(55:54):
you're just you're a really entertaining guy. Hey man, thanks
for having me on here. I'm um glad to be
entertaining people. Everything about you when you drove up to
the gate, Huh, what did I do? Your shirt, your sunglasses,
your presence. I'm looking at you all angles like and
(56:16):
like that was what was entertaining, because I tell you why.
When he pulled up, liked on the camera boot, push
the button, look at it. And I didn'tay anything back
because I did hit the button and it goes you're
come on in whatever it says, right, But I said,
this is a very successful guy and most people to
come over here and chop in the big trucks or
their their fancy cars. And he pulls up in a
minivan and I was like, read, I don't know if
(56:36):
that's him or not. That's awesome. He showed up in
a minivan. I can't remember pulled up to her right
one time in the mini van and or maybe nobody
nobody saw it. I pulled up in and then in
the right it's like, hey man, you know my truck
and fair my wife ever made me by many van
and we'll remember. And I was like, um, WHOA. I
(56:57):
didn't realize there was so much identity, I said, tied
to a vehicle. And also you don't even have cows
or anything. And then I was like, also, have you
seen many evans. It's like they are geared. It's like
they're for a band person, or they're so practical, like
the levels at which you put children or cram children
(57:18):
into seats and stuff. It's like perfect and you can
push the button and all this stuff comes up. I
mean I might get a testa one day or something
like that, but then it's not coming anytime soon. Well,
that being said, you were entertaining in every way, and
your arrival you had a British lady. She access granted. Yes,
that's what she said. That's what it is. Access granted. Yes, Look,
(57:42):
Dick follow her at Luke Dick. You guys check out
something's happened. Um. And then also you can still go
and see Red Dog, which you can get on Amazon.
It's Hulu, Hulu, Amazon, but Hulu may be the way
because Hulu you already have the service. Yeah, there you go. Um,
and am it was part of Amazon Prime but anyway,
but you buy it on Amazon Primer, don't you know.
(58:03):
I don't know. Those are like somebody, some mountain in
the sky that make those decisions. That's it. At Luke,
Dick Luke, Thanks Man, thank you,
Host
Bobby Bones
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