Brett James is a Grammy award-winning songwriter, has had more than 500 cuts, appearing on albums with combined sales of over 110 million copies, and 27 No. 1 hits. Brett had a fascinating journey to Nashville. He talks to Bobby about how he went from medical school to pursuing a career as a solo country artist in the 90’s. Brett shares how it all started with him writing one song that led to him getting major cuts for Carrie Underwood, Kenny Chesney, Rascal Flatts, Dierks Bentley and more!
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Episode three seventy is with Brett James. He has twenty
seven number one songs. It's wild it's twenty seven number
one songs. He also showed up on a motorcycle, so
it's way cooler than I will ever be. His name
is Brett James on Play for a year. You can
follow him at Brett James Songs. It's really cool you
want a Grammy And here he is episode three seventy.
(00:25):
Hey Brett. So when Mike reached out, he said, and
what he often does with folks and said, hey, what
are the number ones that you know? And you were like, well,
hold on a minute, because I looked at your listen
number one you have twenty seven and counting something like that.
I don't know. I mean, what a what a life
that you have so many massive songs that you get
to forget some of them? You know, it's you know,
(00:48):
I just leave the listing to somebody else, So I
don't I don't try to keep you know, I don't
keep scoring. What does encounting mean? Is there anything? Um
right now? That's I don't have anything climbing right now?
I go. My last number one was knowing You're loser
then I gotta get busies. We don't have anything going
for yet. All I do want to mention this before
we get going, and I'll come back to it again
at the end. Um, you're doing an event in November
(01:11):
at the Bell Tower in Nashville. So what is this event? Man,
it's so worth going to. Um, it's November ten. It's
it's for a thing called Aerial Recovery. And I didn't
know much about them. I just knew some of the
people involved, and then I ended up going to kind
of their board meeting or something and did some you know,
play some music form and stuff and got to know them.
And what they do is they take like X special
(01:32):
ops guys like these are all mostly almost all green Berets,
some seals, and they kind of repurposed them for good
and so literally like what they've been doing. Like last year,
for instance, they pulled four thousand people out of Ukraine,
including like a thousand orphans. You know, I know they
were in Pakistan for the floods like three weeks ago.
I'm sure they were, and I'm sure they're in Florida
(01:54):
right now. And they do them like just these guys,
you know, they come out of like they get all
this training and then they they kind of it's time
to move on. And you've got all this kind of
wasted talent and what this, what this organization is trying
to do is tap into that talent and and use
these you know, the expertise of these special ops guys.
So you're playing and singing, yeah, yeah, Christa Stephano, John
(02:16):
Knight and I are playing that night, and um, it's
the Bell Tower. It's a beautiful, beautiful venue and it's
just an amazing cause. If you if you're interested, Aerial
Recovery dot event I think is where you go to
kind of buy tickets and stuff. I did a charity
event once with Christina Stephano. And I don't get up
and play next to you good guys often because I
do comedy and I remember, and there's a reason I
(02:37):
think Chris reminded me why I don't. CHRISTI reminds me
why I don't like to play next to Christy just
like singing that at certain octaves, singing carry songs and
it's just like god, dang dude, I'm over here to
singing songs about working a hobby lobby poorly, and he's
crushing it. But both of you guys have that in common,
(02:59):
and that your boats such great singers. I think that
you're being very humble there, because I mean, you had
a solo deal way before you turned into the great writer.
I had miserably failed solo dealers. But was it a
miserably failed deal though, I mean, I would say otherwise,
I mean to get a deal first of all? Period
incredibly different. Sure, So was that deal in Nashville based deal?
(03:23):
It was? It was? It was Arista Nashville based back
in that's all was Arista and obviously Arista as an
imprint outside of his country music. So did you move
to town and then pursue a like a the career
to be a singer? It was that the idea, That
was the idea. You know, it's it's it's a really
long story, but we have all the time for it.
There you go. Well, I I was in medical school,
(03:44):
just like all good country songs, you're in medical school
to do what I was going to be in the
r doc. That was my kind of plan for life.
My dad and granddad were both docs, so that's kind
of grew up in that world. Yeah, I just you know,
they just seemed like the natural thing, and and up
my my freshman year of med school in Oklahoma, where
I'm from, I go and I see it. You know,
(04:05):
I went to college in Texas and I grew up
in Oklahoma, so you know, I loved country music anyway.
But I went and saw Steve Warner concert one night.
Who's getting into song with a whole fame in a month.
I'm so excited because he's awesome. I go see a
Steve Warner show and kind of watched him one night,
and he's an amazing player. And I was like, Okay,
I'll never play guitar like that, but I think the
rest of it I might be able to do. And
(04:27):
so I kind of when, you know, because everybody it
kind of has that moment. I'm sure you had your
moment where you're like, this is what I can do
and I can be pretty good at it, and and
you know, that was kind of my little moment where
maybe I should start writing songs in my free time.
And so that's what I did. I started writing songs
my free time. And did you sing though? In high school?
Like fifteen, were you singing? You know? In church? Yeah?
(04:47):
And I was in a group that even traveled from church,
we sing in other churches. So I grew up singing
in church, and that's how I learned to sing. So
I kind of knew I could sing. But were you
a celebrated singer at church? When when the group would
go in with it be like this is this is
a little bread a little brad can saying, yeah it
was a little bit. I was. I was. I was
a guy who got most of solos and stuff like that,
so yeah, a little bit, And I knew I could
sort of, you know, I was singing at high school
(05:08):
graduation and stuff like that, like like a lot of
kids in high school, but I never you know where
I'm from, you don't. It's not on the list of
things you think you can do for a job. It's
not really one of those things in high school they say,
yeah you should, you can do this, you know, right,
But your grandfather's a doctor, your dad's doctor. Those are
pretty practical jobs as far as jobs that if you
go to school and you study and you get the
right grades and you perform, you get the job. You
(05:30):
get the job. That's right. This this industry is not
that in any way whatsoever. And so what did they
say about when you finally expressed to your dad even, hey,
I think I want to not do medicine, right, you know.
He he was all about it, interestingly enough, because he
was kind of a frustrated singer himself, and and you know,
he'd been a doctor for a long time by that time,
(05:51):
and it kind of changed the job description to change.
He was kind of like one of these small town
doctors who just you know, takes care of the grandparents
and delivers the grand babies and everything in between. And
and he and it and just medicine had changed. So
he was a little like, go chase your dream. That's
what he was about. And that's what happened to me.
I came out here. I'd written, like, you know, ten songs,
and I put five of them. I literally took, you know,
(06:14):
my summer job money and paid for a little studio
in Oklahoma City and sent it to my one contact
in the music business, who was my friend Deb from college,
who was an intern in college radio promotion in ann Arbor.
So that was my you know, it was my big end.
But unfortunately she gave it to her boss. Her boss
had been a big deal and her boss as well.
(06:34):
I'd like to manage you. When can you come to Nashville?
So let me get this straight. So An Arbor, Michigan, right?
Is that where? Right? That's where she was based. Okay,
that's not really that close to Nashville. So who's her boss?
Her boss is I think still lives here. A lady
named Marine Nally and Rene had been a big A
and R person. She actually started the at CO record
label for Atlantic in New York. But live here, no,
(06:57):
and but she had she had some contacts here and
she'd done some really cool stuff with some bands from Nashville,
like she discovered in Excess and she she had had
some had a big career and then gone back home,
moved back home to ann Arbor, And so she was like,
can I meet you in Nashville? I want to introduce
you some people. And anyway, long story short, as I
came into a spring break in my sophomore year and
it was my third day. We we met with a
(07:18):
couple of labels and they kind of patted me on
the head and you know, sent me back and from
that demo, like they heard the demo they met with Yeah,
mainly they met with me because they knew her, you know,
she got the meetings. So we go in, we played
the music and they're like, nice to meet you. We
have lunch and and you know, see again some time.
And then randomly we're in another guy's office that she knows,
and I play some music for kind of Cliff Alder
(07:38):
and she might know Cliff or his son cliffy Um.
And we're in his office and I play some songs
for him and I'm this kid and the Cowboy have
from Oklahoma. And he's like, it's pretty good. And this
is the way Nashville kind of worked back then. He
literally got on his landline, called up Tim Dubois and said, Tim,
I think I got a guy over here. It's pretty
good and Tim said bring him over. So literally ten
(08:01):
minutes later, I'm in the you know, the president of
Arista's office, Tim Dubas at the time, and they were
they were crushing it, you know, Alan Jackson and Brooks
and Dunne and all these acts. And I'm sitting in
his office playing playing music for him. In twenty minutes later,
he's like, Mr, I've never told anybody this, but if
you moved to Nashville, I'll give you a record deal.
Did you know that how heavy it was the room.
Not really, I don't think I had a clue how
(08:23):
big a deal he was at the time. You know,
um I learned later. Did you guess, and I guess.
Do you think your performance when performing in that room
for Tim Duas? Do you feel like, because you didn't
really know, you were allowed to just perform as you
normally would. And if you did, actually knowing you were
educated on the process, maybe you would have you'd have
been a little tight, because like I'm with the president
(08:43):
of probably so exactly. It's probably nice that I didn't
kind of, you know, kind of gather how how important
he was. You gotta deal that quick. I mean, you
weren't even living here, right, it was nuts. It was
nus he and but what was you know? I I said,
you know, he offered me a deal, and I was like, well,
I'm in med school. I'm gonna have to think of
at it a little bit. And he said, well, you're
gonna have to move here if you want to do this,
(09:03):
you know, And he gave me his, you know, home
phone number because nobody even had cell phones back then.
So here's my number. Call me if you if you
want to do this. And what happened was I decided
to take a year off med school finished that year,
I took my medical board exams all that stuff, and uh,
the day after I took my board exams, I moved
to Nashville. But I knew, like instinctively, I wasn't ready,
(09:25):
you know, to do this too. I just, you know,
I've written ten songs, and I just knew I wasn't ready.
So I got a job waiting tables in midtown cafe.
And so you moved here, but you didn't take I
didn't call him for nine months. So you moved here.
I did. You went through with that part, the part
that kind of is hard, but the part that's kind
of cool he's started not to do yet. Yeah, I
(09:46):
just I just didn't think I was ready. You know.
I was like, I don't know who I am, I
don't know what I'm doing. I don't you know, have
a clue about this business. And so I just started
playing you know, open mic nights, just like everybody else.
And and I, you know, I got, like I said,
waited tables. And fortunately, you know, it was the early nineties.
It was a little different town back then. If you
(10:06):
could like play three chords and sing any at all,
somebody to give you a publishing deal. So I got
lucky that I got a publishing deal. About three months later,
Tim the Ball never walked into a restaurant like that.
He did not. He did not, And so I called him, like,
you know, finally I'd recorded some demos and kind of
felt like I was comfortable playing him some new music
and called him nine months later, said, you know, it'd
been a year since I met with him and had
(10:27):
that meeting, and he was I was like, I don't
even know if you remember who I am, but a
year ago you told me if I moved here, you
give me a deal. He said, I remember you. So
I came in and he signed me, and that's the
way that got started. So what happens then, So you
have a deal, you put out a couple of songs.
I'm gonna have them here. Failed miserably. Yes, everything fail,
because I can tell you from just a personal experience.
(10:48):
Like I had a show we were we had tried
to pilot for it, and the networks about to pick
it up. Then they changed all of the executives, so
they went, this wasn't our show, so we're not going
to go through with it. So I can go, well,
that felt miserably, or I can go, well, the reason
I never got a shot because it's not it's not
anybody's fault exactly. And you know, that whole thing just
(11:08):
wasn't meant to be Looking back, you know, Um, I
was trying. I mean, we're doing radio tours, We're going
to see all the stations and and they're all telling
me they're gonna play the records, and then they don't,
you know, and that's happened. Still. Lots of artists were
heartbroken when that deal didn't work out. You know, I
wasn't heartbroken. It was more like, uh, because it didn't
it kind of drug out. It was about a five
(11:28):
year period of it not working because put out a
couple of singles, they don't work. Then you go back
into make another album, you change producers. You're kind of
you know how that that game works with with artists.
You're just trying to figure it out. And when it
finally went away, it was literally five years later. And um,
I was not heartbroken, but I was, honestly I was.
I'd be embarrassed. It was sort of like, you know,
(11:51):
weren't you the guy that was supposed to you know,
have your had you had a had a seedy and
Walmart for a minute, you know. And I remember being
on music row and walking into my publishing coming just
being like embarrassed, like kind of feeling like he's that's
the guy that didn't work and he's washed up. Now,
you know, it was real, It was a real thing.
Was there ever a time that you purposefully said, well,
I'm gonna pivot because because you had to also decide
(12:12):
not to pursue it anymore, even if you don't have
a deal. Like I've had friends who have had deals
and they've gone away or they've lost it, or and
they go, Okay, well I can do it independent, I
can go sign somewhere else. I cannot do it. Some
of them have become wonderful songwriters. Sure, Like, what was
that moment for you and how did you make that decision? Well,
it was a little different. It was a little different
pivot for me. I was it was ninety nine. I've
(12:37):
been in Nashville for seven years and had lost my
record deal and my publishing deal had gotten cut by
like two thirds. You know, when I was early twenties,
I'm making great money, because everybody thought I was gonna
be Tim was still everyway's gonna be Garth Brooks. So
I had this, you know, some some good money and
all that stuff happening, and all of a sudden, it's
Ninete and I'm like, I think I'm almost thirty years
old and I have two little babies, and um. I
(12:59):
literally walked into Target one day and almost if I've
ever had a panic attack, this was it. I was
standing in Target and I'm in the like the kid's clothing,
and I see this little pair of, you know, one
year old tennis shoes, and I looked at him. I
was like, and I'd really like to buy this from
my kid, but I can't afford him. And I'm not
going to live like this. And so I decided then
(13:20):
and there, um that I was going to figure something out.
But all I've ever done was go to med school
and and be a songwriter. And so I literally snail
mailed to med school a letter and said, I know
you're only supposed to get one year off. I've been
out for seven. Is there any chance I can get
back in? You know? And the dean snail mailed me back,
and she said, well, you've been at a long time.
(13:42):
But yes, you can come back, but you gotta start.
You have to repeat your sophomore year. And so I
did that. I went back to med school after being
in town for for seven years in um and you know,
my ex wife now and kids stayed here in Nashville
to sell the house. So I just went back and
moved in with my parents who lived there, and UM,
(14:03):
I started back to med school, you know, at thirty
as a sophomore, you know, just and it was it
was a huge relief. I was like, man, you know,
I gave Nashville shot, um, but at least I know
I'm gonna be able to feed my kids. And that's
that's you know, at some point when you're dad, that's
all that matters in the world. And that's all that
mattered to me, you know. And but what happened was
God sort of had another plan. I went back to
(14:24):
med school in September one, still had a had a
year left on a publishing deal, and they were really cool.
I said, we'll just keep writing. Maybe something will happen.
I go back to med sical on September one, and
Faith Hill Cutch, one of my songs in September four
on a Breathe album and then ended up getting thirty
three cuts in the next nine months and had five
top ten singles. So thirty three cups of songs you'd
already written, mostly and somebody written. Somebody was writing. In
(14:47):
med school. I had a dear friend who's a huge
hit song writer named Troy Burgers, and he he was
a kid like twenty three or four at the time,
and he decided, you know, we started to get hot
as a as kind of a writing team, and uh
so he would come to Oklahoma and we write songs
out there. So a lot of those were new songs
that I was. I go to med school until two
and he'd he'd be waking up, you know, and then
(15:07):
we write until we write songs and I'd come, I'd
fly back into Nashville and we demo him up and
that kind of stuff. So you were hustling pretty hard, yeah, Prety,
So what was the faith Sale song? It was a
song called love the Sweet Thing. It was not a single,
but it was on that album that you know, her
Breathe record. But that's probably I mean, really, when you
think about the songs, I mean, I could list every
number one of the ten million you have. But that's probably,
when you look back, one of the most important songs
(15:28):
to your entire career. Oh. Absolutely. It kind of started
opening doors and I kind of found the right publishing situation.
I worked with a grilling Kelly King, who was my
song plow and Mark Bright who but Kelly was my
song pluggers. She's still around Nashville as well, and uh,
you know, it was just amazing because I was kind
of her only writer, and so I'd write songs and
she'd kind of get them out there, and you know,
I'd be and it was a it was a crazy
(15:49):
time because I'd be literally studying for a pathologies and
examined the library and I'd get up and a call
on my flip phone Brett, you know, Tim mcgrage, just
cut tell your rider that Martin hu provide, just cut
lust or whatever. And I was like, you know, there's
there's nobody around a high five with I just kind
of like do a little dance in the in the
library and call it. Because so my assumption that you
didn't finish medical school, I didn't you and quit again,
(16:12):
which was some years under your exactly, and took exams
and then I had an interesting conversation with that. Dean
was an interesting so because the legal rules, we can
only play five seconds of music at this point, but
we're gonna hit five seconds hard, Mike, Are you ready?
This was your first number one. This is Jessck Andrews
Who I Am. That's a song that's still today is
(16:37):
played as what they call a recurrent because it was
such a big song from those early two thousand years.
And that's your first number one. It was the first
number one. Yeah, it was, you know what a blessing
it was? It was. It was awesome when you wrote
the song. Was it just one in a mix? Or
did you go, Man, if somebody just gets That's always
my question because sometimes, like you know, it's just another one.
We just wrote it and thought what about? We thought
(16:59):
that one was special? Quite honestly, you know, I wrote
that back to med school. I wrote that in my
parents kitchen with Troy verges Um after I had gone
to class one day and and uh, we had heard
there was a new artist named Jessica Andrews who was
looking for a you know, a kind of a female anthem,
and and I remember I spit out, like what about
we write it just called who I am and like
(17:20):
I am and literally the first thing I said was
Rosemary granddaughter and and Troy said the spitting image of
my father. And we're like on our way and uh
and uh. Troy's girlfriend at the time, who's now a
Hall of Fame songwriter, Hillary lindsay, Um, she wasn't even writing,
but she uh, she was kind of enough to sing
the demo for us on that song. And um, so
(17:41):
after Hillary saying it, we knew there was something special
about it. And then Jessica did an amazing John did
you feel when you weren't focusing strictly on performance and
your vocal and you're just you your record deal, when
you just focused on writing that you became a better writer.
(18:04):
Did you always feel like you were a really good right? Like,
when did you start to feel like, Okay, I'm actually
competitive and if I focus this right, I'm great. I
don't think I don't think I still feel that way,
thank you. I'm still working on that one. But um,
you know what what Troy and I kind of what
what what going back to med school did for me
(18:24):
was free me up a lot um. You know, it
was sort of like a creative thing where it was Okay,
now my kids are gonna get fed. I'm not I'm
not just struggling trying to I'm not dying to try
to get the next George Straight Cut so that you know,
I can feed the family anymore. I have a job,
I have a plan, and so I'm gonna kind of say,
(18:46):
you know, screw it, you got to play, you got
to play loose. I said, screw it, and let's just
write what we love. And that's really what happened now year.
I mean that that's a bizarrely remarkable story that one
you go to med school, you quit med school, you come,
you get a jo, you go back to med school,
you quit med school after you and got another record.
By the way, I signed another record deal with Arista
(19:07):
again after after that year in med school, and just
like that one failed miserably too. So here we go.
This is a wild story. It's like you keep I know,
and not the same, but you keep marrying your ex
wife over and over in a different one. It's like
different different xt wives. Would you keep marrying Yeah yeah, um.
Just looking at some of the accolades, like the big accolades,
(19:29):
like you hit you have it's six number ones in
two thousand nine, And I had to look again three
times to make sure I'm not reading all the numbers
wrong because six and nines are upside down and us.
But I think you had six number ones in two
thousand nine. I think I did. That's I can't believe that,
and I can because I'm looking at it. But when
I read it, I was like, am I looking at
this right? Six? I turned the screen nine. I want
(19:49):
to roll through these quickly in this year, have two
thousand nine? All six these number ones? Rodney Atkins, It's America,
Kenny Chesney, out Last nine, Carry Underwood, Cowboy, Casanova, Chris Young,
the Man I want to Be, Jason Aldi and the Truth,
(20:16):
Rascal Flat, Summer Nights. I'm tired just reading them all
there like that in a row. So, whenever you have
this many number ones in a row, is it so
hard to write? Because everybody wants to write with you.
That's never that's never a bad thing. If everybody wants
to write what it's like. And I've had brief parts
of my career where you're the shiny toy for a second.
(20:36):
Everybody wants play with a shiny toy. When you start
to have this unparalleled success writing two thousand nine, two
thou eight, I'm making even go backward. I mean, is
it people constantly calling going, hey, I just love to
get on your calendar at some point, even if it's
six months from now. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's what happens.
And that's a fun place to be, you know, because
you kind of get to pick and choose who you
want to work with and get to you know, you know,
(20:57):
do do do the days you love and not not
do as many as of the days that you don't.
And it's it's a pretty cool, you know thing. But
you know, I always say that, you know, and in
the music business, it's like most businesses, it's you know,
it's it's who's Brett James. Get me Brett James. Give
you the next Brett James. Who's Brett James. Yeah, that's
kind of the that's the arc of most careers, you know,
And I think you have to kind of I always
(21:18):
tell the writers that I work with. I've had a
publishing company for like fifteen years, so I get to
be around young writers and I'm like, you're never as
as hot as you think you're When you're hot and
you're never is not when you're not, you know, And
and I think you kind of have to learn to
have some thick skin and not to not to think
you're so cool when things are working, so that when
things aren't working, you don't get in the dumps either,
you know that makes sense? Yeah, And I tell new
(21:39):
artists or just as an example, we had a group
that was in a couple of weeks when I was
talking to them and they had had some success on
on television, And it's like, when you get to be
shining for a second, make all the relationships that you
can make, all the relationships to you because it's not
going to change your life just to be cool for
a second. But the relationships that you make and that
(22:02):
you keep will actually help you through your career for
a long time. So just don't go like I'm cool now,
who wants to work with me? It's like dig in.
Find your spots that you're finally allowed to get. They're
very important. Make a few real strong connections, like I
was like with the operay, you're in with the operation now,
like really value that connection because maybe they wouldn't have
got to look, we don't ever get a look any
(22:22):
of us until we have some sort of success. But
it's like, what do you grab onto and really develop
out from this moment that you're successful, cool, whatever word
you want to use there, And it's that's exactly and
that's what I was telling them too. It's like, you know,
you're you feel everybody in social medialling you, they love you.
You're probably not that cool right now, but when you were,
when you're not cool again, you're probably not that not
(22:42):
cool again because there are a lot of people that
still think you're awesome. It's never too high, never too low,
you know what. I try to My therapist though, tells
me that I am on a straight line, regardless of
all the time I've never hired, all never loved, I
never really yeah, yeah, something I'm going to get to
interview you about that. I don't go up or down,
and I think it's I always want because you can't
(23:02):
really experience like true happiness if you can't feel some sadness, right,
it's almost it's almost an equal scale, like if you
can let yourself feel, you get to feel way down
or way up. And so I have trouble feeling the
sad I think probably from childhood trauma. So I don't
ever feel good about that same way. I think I'm
very much the same way. I think you just kind
(23:23):
of find your I think, and I think men are
more likely to be that way and set. Yeah, I'm
kind of that same way, and I do think that
in maybe especially on the songwriting side of things and
the artist side of things, you have to be that
way because you know, there's always another single that you're
either it's either winning or it's losing, or there's always
another you know, cut that you're either getting or you're
(23:44):
not getting, and you know you you you have to
come and in the song I decide it most of
the time, it's not most of the time it's disappointment,
you know. And so you have to kind of just
just learn to to to love what you do and
and not not feel too high too low, I don't think,
because if I if I felt at all, I'd go crazy.
I mean, in a creative world, if you let the
(24:04):
lows dominate you, because it's it's low eighty five to
ninety percent of the time. If you're if you're succeeding,
if you're if you're crushing it exactly if you're sixty
if you know, and I think you'll understand this probably
better than even I do. But it's like at times
people will be like, man, you're really killing it. But
I'm like, if you guys had any idea how much
how many knows I get, or or what I wanted
(24:26):
and didn't get, or what how glamorous it looks and
it ain't. You know, that's a lot of what we do. Absolutely,
it's getting beat up most of the time, and it's
getting back up when you get beat up, and staying
up just long enough to finally get a bite the worms.
Finally you get a bit the worms? What was in
your mind? What was the more well, I can't believe
(24:46):
this just happened moment? Was it that year two thousand nine?
Or wasn't one of the Grammy with carry back a
few years before that? Man? You know, all of those
are great. You know, I don't think we knew when
Jesus take the it was happening. How you know what
a big deal it was. You know, quite honestly, I
don't think it kind of hit me that well, this
is I'm gonna be talking about that song. You know,
(25:08):
seventeen years later you still play that one. If you
play usually almost I'm almost always. I feel like if
I don't, it's somebody's gonna throw something at me. But yeah,
I think both of both those moments were great, and
both these usual great. Yeah, but if you had if
we had to eliminate one, somebody shows up, but the
old men in black thing that goes, all right, letna
make you forget one of them, which you know, I
(25:29):
got to be Songwater of the Year twice, and and
though that's that's a really fun cool thing because it's
kind of based on more body of work than just
one song, you know, and I think that was those
those are pretty special trophies to me. Where do you
have the Graham at your house? It's in my office. Actually, yeah,
it's in my office. Do you pettit? I do not?
(25:49):
Maybe not. I wish I had more than one, let's
put it that way. But you know there's people that
have lots. I got to work at Allison Cross's house
the other day with her son, and you know Alison,
you know, she's so which she just brings his coffee.
You know, I'm just like someone with twenty eight Grammys
just gave me coffee and that's that's just a cool thing.
(26:12):
What is it for you? I think you go, wow,
this is cool. Where most people maybe wouldn't think that.
You think it's the coolest thing. And I give an
example as you think about answer, because it's a tough one. Um.
I got an airplane once and Barry Switzer was on
and I'm from Arkansas and he was played at Arkansas,
you know, coach the Cowboys, coached Oklahoma, and I was like,
just the freaking coolest thing ever. And I would tell
(26:34):
my friends of it, like I don't I don't really
fall sports. I don't care that kind of thing, but
I'm like, this is so cool and that's not even
something that I like earned or deserve. I interviewed Dan
Patrick on my sports show the other day, and I'm like,
this is the coolest thing. And I tell people like, yeah,
I don't know, but to me, that's that's like legit,
Like that's the coolest thing. What for you? Who is
it or what happened where You're like, this is like
(26:55):
different world and never thought i'd be here. But most
people probably won't even think it's as cool as I do. Well, Well,
it's it's funny because the one that pops into my
head is not about a superstar, you know, it's a
because you know, like you said, I've gotten to be
around Garth and Staying and some pretty you know Taylor
and people like that. He's just like, that's just insane,
you know, you to even think about it. And like, literally,
(27:16):
I'm at the n s A. I think two weeks ago,
and I hadn't. I was Taylor's you know, producer when
she was like thirteen, you know, you know, before she
came back and had all her success. And then I'm
walking down the back hall and Taylor just steps out
of her saying season. She's like, you know, it's like
old home with you know, Taylor Swift, which is pretty
crazy because I have a daughter who worships everything everything
(27:38):
Taylor Swift. But for me, the moment that strikes me
is like, you know, I'm convinced that whoever your superstar
superhero was when you're like in fourth or fifth grade,
is that person whatever? And for me, it's a Christian
singer named rust Half, and um, you probably never heard
of him, but he was a big deal around like
in Christian music, and I'll never forget the only time
I ever suit got superstar struck. I was. I was
(27:59):
writing a song with Marcus Hummond at his house and
like the nineties, and I didn't know Rust Half was
his next door neighbor. I would have stalked him. And
so I'm sitting there with Marcus when we're writing a
song and Russ Taff walks and they're best friends. He goes, hey,
your dogs in the yard again. He's like, you got
any coffee made? You know, kind of kind of like that,
and Mark said yeah, He's like, there's coffee in the kitchen,
(28:19):
and Rust this is but and I literally just cried.
He didn't know what I'm doing. It's like a Tuesday afternoon.
Who was And I literally tears just came to my eyes.
And all I could say was like, you're my hero,
you know. And I think that it's those moments that
kind of, you know, catch you off guard and to
make me go, wow, I can't believe I've gotten to
(28:40):
do this. Yeah, that stuff to me, it's like, what,
like that's for example, I get to go and I'm
big Arkansas guy. Grew up in Arkansas. We didn't have
a lot of money and so maybe would get to
go to one game a year. But now it's like
when I get to go back and even just get
to go in the locker room, I'm just like, I
cannot believe this. But my friends like, but you get
to like it doesn't matter all that other stuff I
do all the time. Like this to me is like,
(29:02):
there's a lot of value in this because when I
was nine, this is what I dreamed of, was being
here at this place looking at these lockers and for
you was rust haft Well and Barry Switzer would be
it from me too. I mean, I grew up in
the in the seventies in Oklahoma. Man, there's nothing nothing,
there was nothing bigger than Barry Swits sports guy. Huh
what what what's your sport and team? And I'm a
(29:23):
college football you know. That's really what I come back
to is always college football. Baylor and I went to
Baylor undergrad. And want toell you two. And I grew
up in Oklahoma, so Baylor, no, you were my two
two main teams. But I've adopted a few mothers. Might
got a son at Auburn now, so I'm rooting for Auburn.
And and but yeah, Baylor, know you, yeah, I see
you drove up on a motorcycle, and I'm scared of
death of a lot of things, including motorcycles. You have
(29:45):
to watch out for so many things when riding a motorcycle. Yes,
and there and so many of those things are idiots. Oh,
and there's an unlimited amount of idiots. Yeah, it's it's
I just pretend like every car is gonna kill me.
That's the way. Literally, I just as I'm driving, I'm
playing this game like like that one's gonna swerve into me,
and this one's gonna swear, and and the person behind
(30:06):
is not gonna know that I'm turning. So I just
need to expect that all the time. I mean, I think,
and I think, you know, and I ride it around
town at forty miles an hour. I don't I don't
do anything crazy on a motorcycle, but I like to
put around town. But you know, that could be the
most dangerous time, because you're right, there's so many stupid people.
It's it's all the time. Everybody's on their phones now too,
which is worse. You know, you know what, the phones.
(30:27):
That's a that's a whole new last five year wrinkle,
isn't it. Right? When did you start riding a motorcycle
about ten or twelve years ago something like that. Yeah,
I bet the phones made it a lot more dangerous.
Yeah they have, for sure, for sure. For sure you
have the radio ke you trying to do? You turn
the radio up real out. I don't turn up, and
you gotta have that light to hear it while you're riding.
But it's also like when you're slowing down, there should
(30:48):
almost be a the volume turns itself down automatically. Wouldn't
that be nice? Because I don't know because you pull
up next to motor I don't turn my radio on
everyone I ride because I like to hear the other
car that's about to swerve into me and kill me,
but because they all will and are planning on it
right um, But yeah, I don't. I don't turn it
up at all. I want to play. I was looking
through your entire catalog here and I was trying to
(31:10):
find the song because you have again so many. The
one that I love, I think the most is one
of your more recent number ones. Is that Kenny Chesney
Knowing you because I love Emo Kenny. I'm not really
big into Beach Kenny, because I don't like to beach
that much. I grew up in Arkansas, so I know
I don't have this affinity for the beach and we
never want on vacations, so I never went to the beach.
I never thought I've never heard it called emo Kenny,
(31:31):
but I get it. My favorite Kenny is Emo Kenny
when he singing sad songs or slow songs, and so
knowing you might could be a place of this all,
damn it was good. How do you get a song
to Kenny? Well, I'm lucky because I know Kenny pretty well.
I just texted to him, and I just texted to
(31:52):
his phone and he just says yes or no. If
you send Kenny ten songs, how many yes his nose
or and no responses? Oh wow? Well, and he never
says no. It's always in no response like like he
he never says I don't like that one, And I
kind of I love that about him. He's just don't
get anything back. You know, you never go you never
hear that. That totally sucks. Would you leave me alone?
That's good that he doesn't do that. Um, it's usually
(32:14):
no response and out of you know, I would say
it's one out of twenty really that you get Yeah,
I'm into that or I'm not at that. But Kenny
has He's such a song guy. He texted me the
day before yesterday about a song that I played for
him seven or eight years ago, and he's like, do
you still have that version that the duet and blah
(32:34):
blah blah blah blah. He never forgets a song. It's incredible,
And did you still have the version? I did and
had anyone cut it? Nobody's cut it, so I'm hoping
he will. Yeah, Caitlyn Smith thing doet on it. It's
amazing on the fence, that's sell it pretty good. Um,
oldest song that was ever cut? Meaning you mentioned that
six or seven years you wrote a song X amount
(32:56):
of years later it finally gets cut and becomes a hit.
What comes to your mind? There? The truth pops in
in my head. Um, we had written I wrote that
with Ashi Monroe, who I just love too. We're actually
getting ready to go to Brazil together trip saw her
there or four days ago. Yeah, we had it. I
love her. She's the best. Yeah, and I've known her
since she was fifteen. Somehow. I started working her when
she was really young, and I think we wrote that
song when she was about sixteen or seventeen in my
(33:18):
living room. Um and uh, but you know, the truth
is kind of a weird song. You don't really really
know what it's about until the very end of the song,
the last two lines, which is, you know, breaks every
songwriting rule there is. And so we wrote it and
just sat on shelves and we just thought it was
never gonna pop up, you know, And all of a sudden,
you know, like six or seven years later, I don't
(33:39):
even know how I was gonna ask, how does it?
I don't know long enough to get around no clue.
I have no idea how. Jason never heard that song,
but I'm glad he did, and he sure he sure
crushed it. And there was another one called You Saved Me.
There was a Kenny song that just got happened in
the same kind of deal. It was probably ten years old.
What's in Brazil? We're going to a riding camp to
write Brazilian music and Portuguese. Of course we are. Why
(34:00):
wouldn't we be doing you know, I thought you would
go to Brazil or right country music song for the
country music people who wanted to fly to Brazil. But
I'm way wrong on that so what, how and what
and why. It's a really long story, but um, we
both right work with a coming called Warner Chapel here
in town, big publisher, and they have offices all over
the world. And um, you know, I get this email
one day, Hey, do you want to go to sell
(34:21):
Apollo to write this new kind of Brazilian music that
is apparently huge? Apparently this new genre of Brazilian music
is taking over the world or something. And it's gonna
be a little camp with like five Nashville Riders and
and studios, and you're gonna it's all gonna be in
Portuguese and you're gonna have translators. I have no idea
we're going into But so you haven't done this yet.
I haven't done it yet. We're leaving. We're leaving Sunday,
(34:44):
actually asked you. Monroe, Liz Rose, me and a couple
other people are gonna go down and because that see
what happens, does it excite you a lot? You like,
it's just it's just, you know, I look at it
like it's a cultural experience. I've never been to Brazil,
and I, you know, don't know a thing about the music.
But I'm gonna do a lot of I'm gonna educate
myself before Sunday, hopefully. Are you doing Rosetta Stone and Portuguese?
I am not at all. No, I'm not. I'm doing
(35:06):
d lingo friends right now. I'm trying to learn friends.
We had Dan Huff, and we've talked to Dan a
couple of times, and you know, he would talk about
how he'd be at an airport and did hear a song?
I guess I really like that guitar part, and he'd
later realized I was him who played it. So you've
had five hundred plus songs cut. You ever hear a
song and not realized that it was yours? I have?
(35:27):
I did it recently. Um, I was with Drew Green
and artists that I love and worked with. We read
he was actually playing a wedding and and we're at
this wedding somewhere and nowhere they'd won they'd won the
you know, they won, they'd won a contest, and so
Drew's up there singing and and I heard this song, like, man,
I kind of like that, I kind of you know,
I think it's pretty cool. And somehow it was familiar
(35:48):
and ended up being a Larry Fleet song that I
had written just just a few months ago, and I
was like, wow, that's what you spent a bunch of
years on the board for the c m as. I
have a heart hitting question here is why have I
been black balled so long to be the host of
the c M as. You know, we've had discussions about
(36:08):
and it just never goes the right way. I have
no idea, and I'm not on that board anymore now. Yeah,
I don't know they have they talked to you about it,
because all I hear like there's certain channels you've been
black balled, and I can't get down to the bottom.
I don't can't believe that. Listen. I've had some pretty
prominent folks in here tell me off. He said, like,
(36:29):
you know, there's the systems holding you down, and they
won't exactly tell me who the system is? Is it you? Yeah? No,
you know It's funny, man. The c MA is like
I have been on that board for a long time,
and I hear so many things about that board, and
yet they're all you know them all, they're all the
sweetest people. Exactly who do I not? Somebody? Right, I
(36:52):
don't know. I don't know, I'm sure that's going to happen.
Something just to happen somewhere. You just send me a
little carrier pigeon and you let me know. I'm to
get to the bottom. I'm gonna get to the bottom
of this. When you're at the Grammys, did you get
to sit by anybody cool? Yes? Um, well, the one
time I ever got nominated for the big like to
get in the big room was just amazing. That was
for Jesus take will We We? One country song? But
(37:13):
we were up for a real song, and you know,
we got to sit like on the fifth row and
I was like in front of John Mayor and behind
John Legend, and you know, it was pretty heavy stuff,
you know, And I would literally, like in breaks, I
would just get up and act like I was just
stretching my legs and just just to walk around my
section just to like just to see people. You know
what I'm saying that you're you're everyone right now, every one.
(37:34):
I literally like, I'm you know, you're not staring at him,
but you're getting to walk past you know. I mean
I remember justin Timberlake played twice that nine. Stuff like that.
You're just like, Okay, I just gotta I just gotta
walk around a little bit just to just to see
these people. Did you prepare a speech? No, you didn't,
even just in case I didn't. I'm not a preparer,
and I knew, honestly. I wrote that song with Hilly
(37:55):
Lindsay and Gordy Sampson, and I knew I'd have to
let Hillary do the talk and anyway, so it was
all good. You say you're not a preparer, then let
me put this into your everyday practical life. When your
professional practical life, do you prepare notes for songs and
ideas that you have at this point? Absolutely not as
much as I should. And I think that's what I think.
That's that's a lesson for all songwriters that I need
(38:15):
to do better at because you get old and you
get lazy. You know, I always I keep titles and
and concepts, and you know, I'm always putting them on
my phone. But the really great writers, the ones that
everybody wants to write with, are the ones that write
walk in with something that's great and it's you know,
got a verse or of got it's got, it's got,
it's got some real form to it. And I can
(38:38):
just say that that the young writers that I know
that are being super successful in Nashville right now, they
walk into rooms really prepared, and I think that's I
think that's half the battle. You ever accidentally rewrite or
have the same melody of a previous song of yours,
(38:58):
because it is your brain that had initially Does it
ever come up again? Like, oh did I already do?
Because you have some it's five that's been cut, but
I've written over for That's what I'm saying, that's it's
been cut. It's kind of impossible not to um, to
be honest with you, especially because it's you know, but
what what what you try to do, having done it
as long as I've been doing, is try to find
new lanes. You know, new lanes make your brain go
(39:20):
different places, so you're not falling into the same you know,
melodies that that you have written before, and you know,
so I think that's the sort of the challenge have,
you know, after you've written a lot, so you're this
event we're talking about specifically, but just when you go
when you play a show with great songwriters and you're
showcasing the songs that that have become hits for you,
(39:42):
and you get four. What four do you play more
than not? What are your what are your mount rushmore
of songs that you play when you play I almost
always do that last night because it's got a fun
story to it. And that's you know, you know those shows,
those stories are you know, those songs are just as
much about the stories. Uh what's the story? Uh? The
(40:02):
store is out? Last night was you know, it started
in my kitchen. I was standing in my kitchen on
Christmas Eve and my cell phone rang and um, you
know the voice on the other the line, which was Kenny.
I was like, hey man, you know what are you
doing day after tomorrow? You know? And so I had,
you know, four children under the age of twelve at
the time, you know, when it's Christmas Eve, you know,
(40:23):
so the joke is well, of course, I said, well nothing, man,
you know what you gotta mind because and he said,
why don't we got to the islands and to write
some songs. And so we did, you know, because those
four children know what pays for Christmas presence around my house.
I ended up in you know, the islands on December
and Kenny and I have, you know, we have we
always have a good time together. In this particular night.
(40:43):
We we made a night of it, you know, And
so I woke up the next morning and I was,
I was, I woke up way before he did. I
remember I was playing guitar and sipping coffee, and a
couple of hours later, the sliding glass door to his bedroom,
you know, he kind of sticks his head out and
he's like, at we went out last night, and I said, dah,
(41:04):
we did. And that's the song we had a right today.
So that's how kind of out we We kind of
wrote it about the night before a little bit, and
we actually wrote two number one that day. We wrote
a song called Reality that afternoon. Same day. The same day,
it was you guys should go out more greatest. I know, Kenny,
if you're listening, actually we need to go out more
and do this again. Okay, that's song number one? What
song number two? Um? I almost always play Mr know
(41:26):
at all like Kelly Clarkson, just because it's fun to
sing and you know, and maybe people don't expect you
to sing. If expect me to sing, you wrote, I mean,
I guess that's it. People don't expect you two have
written Kelly Clarkson songs because you're a massive country music songwriter.
I guess so that's probably part of the reason I
played it, because you you never know there's there may
be somebody in that audience. It's not a country music fan,
(41:46):
but they might have listened to Kelly Clarkson on pop
radio and so and it's just a fun really, you know,
it's such a weird song to sing because you know,
you write these songs as a middle aged dude and
then you're singing I Am Rosemary's Grand in front of
strangers or you know, Mr Nolodle in front of strangers.
But um, it's still fun, you know. And it's fun
to kind of being character for that one, and and
(42:07):
and play that. I almost always play the Truth just
because I do love that song. It's one of my
one of I'm most proud of. And um, then I
almost always and would Jesus take the Wheel? If those
are the four? That's probably about about the four? Can
you hit that when you're singing Jesus not in her key?
I can't? You gotta change the key. That's it's fun. Yeah,
Carrie songs are wow. You know, you know, they're they're
(42:31):
hard to they're hard to do live. You know, but
they're they're also really fun and challenging. Stephane and I
were at one with her together called um something in
the water that's always really fun. I heard him, you know,
he played that next to me once and then I
just went, I'm gonna tap out of this round and
he had like a drum under his phone. Yeah, And
it came to me there and I had a little
(42:53):
funny comedy song I was and I was like, all right,
let's just go ahead and skip me and go over
and I was just like, do you expect anyone to
play after that? No one likes and what's the juxta position?
But Chris and me, I'm the worst. I'm I'm just
there to make a different kind of entertainment, my friends.
Which song came back to you so different sonically than
(43:14):
you expected that we would know, like you write it,
you know, so just John Smith has cut the song
and it's really cool. John's a great artist. They're probably
gonna and you get it back and you're like, wow,
that is not my interpretation, but it's amazing. What is that?
You know? It's it's funny you mentioned that when when
the first time I heard Jessica Andrews version of of
(43:36):
Who I Am. It was so different, and I had
such demo love for Hillary Lindsay's demo that the first
time I heard it, I heard it on the radio
and I was like, I don't know, I don't know
if that's I don't know if they did that right.
Of course it's Byron Gallimore. He's a freaking genius, so
of course they did it right, you know. But the
first time I heard that song, I was I was
(43:57):
kind of like just disappointed or just confused. I was like,
I don't know if this is gonna work now, And
sure enough it did. Sure enough it did. Yeah. Uh
spoiler alert, that was very wrong about it. Yeah, yeah,
that did. Um. Okay, look let me promo the event again.
It's a nonprofit aerial recovery, which is a really that's great,
that's you know, there's so much there that these men
(44:19):
and women invest so much of their time in life
to have the skill set that it's like they come
out of the military and then what how do they
use it now? You know? And they also do a
lot of other things. They have they have a center. Um,
it's it's there. The two people that are ahead of
it one girl's named Brittany Murphy. She's from Nashville and
she's an amazingly successful real estate developer. So she also
(44:40):
has an island in the b v Iyes that has
turned into like a therapy center and they take you know,
the one. That's just one of the things they do
is do all these rescue missions. The other thing they
do is a lot of recovery for uh, you know,
guys who are getting out of the military not knowing
what to do next, or they're depressed or suicidal or whatever,
and they go down to this island and have counselors
and all of stuff and kind of you know, lots
(45:01):
of training for these guys. And it's just amazing what
they're doing. I'm I'm I'm all in on this one.
It's cool. November ten, six pm at the Bell Tower
in Nashville and there's a cocktail reception. This is heavy
or darks. I don't know the difference the trades, just
the Yeah, they got some put lead balls. Yeah, I think, uh, listen,
I hope people go check it out, But mostly I
hope people can appreciate just your story. I mean, it's
(45:25):
if this isn't the story of Hey, you never really know,
and you have the liberty to pivot and change and
figure it out. I don't know what is because I
mean that's what you did. We're all learning, still still
trying to pivot and change, you know, And I think
that's an ongoing, ongoing thing for all of us, isn't it.
At Brett James songs, well, I only change because people
tell me I suck a one thing. I don't never
change on purpose. I only change because it's like you
(45:46):
ain't good at this anymore, and I'm like God, usually
that I think the ticket from me has been finding
out that I suck at something soon enough, you know,
not wasting so much more time. I waste a lot
of time talking. I'll be honest with you. At Brett
James song, it's Brett. It's been a pleasure man, you Bobby.
I really appreciate the time, and congrats on everything. I mean,
your career is just insane. I want to flip the
switch sometime and do this interview with you. Do you
(46:08):
do you do a podcast? Do you have a podcast? Okay,
all right, well we're just gonna interview and at your
house with no microphone. That's it. I just really just
going to have a um Brett. Good to see you
and thank you for the time. And I hope this
event goes wonderfully. And I don't know. If I see
on the on the street, I'll block for you. If
I'm a car and I see you driving, I'm gonn
(46:28):
give a sidebody please, thank you. Yeah, I need it
all right, Thanks Matt, thank you
Episode three seventy is with Brett James. He has twenty
seven number one songs. It's wild it's twenty seven number
one songs. He also showed up on a motorcycle, so
it's way cooler than I will ever be. His name
is Brett James on Play for a year. You can
follow him at Brett James Songs. It's really cool you
want a Grammy And here he is episode three seventy.
(00:25):
Hey Brett. So when Mike reached out, he said, and
what he often does with folks and said, hey, what
are the number ones that you know? And you were like, well,
hold on a minute, because I looked at your listen
number one you have twenty seven and counting something like that.
I don't know. I mean, what a what a life
that you have so many massive songs that you get
to forget some of them? You know, it's you know,
(00:48):
I just leave the listing to somebody else, So I
don't I don't try to keep you know, I don't
keep scoring. What does encounting mean? Is there anything? Um
right now? That's I don't have anything climbing right now?
I go. My last number one was knowing You're loser
then I gotta get busies. We don't have anything going
for yet. All I do want to mention this before
we get going, and I'll come back to it again
at the end. Um, you're doing an event in November
(01:11):
at the Bell Tower in Nashville. So what is this event? Man,
it's so worth going to. Um, it's November ten. It's
it's for a thing called Aerial Recovery. And I didn't
know much about them. I just knew some of the
people involved, and then I ended up going to kind
of their board meeting or something and did some you know,
play some music form and stuff and got to know them.
And what they do is they take like X special
(01:32):
ops guys like these are all mostly almost all green Berets,
some seals, and they kind of repurposed them for good
and so literally like what they've been doing. Like last year,
for instance, they pulled four thousand people out of Ukraine,
including like a thousand orphans. You know, I know they
were in Pakistan for the floods like three weeks ago.
I'm sure they were, and I'm sure they're in Florida
(01:54):
right now. And they do them like just these guys,
you know, they come out of like they get all
this training and then they they kind of it's time
to move on. And you've got all this kind of
wasted talent and what this, what this organization is trying
to do is tap into that talent and and use
these you know, the expertise of these special ops guys.
So you're playing and singing, yeah, yeah, Christa Stephano, John
(02:16):
Knight and I are playing that night, and um, it's
the Bell Tower. It's a beautiful, beautiful venue and it's
just an amazing cause. If you if you're interested, Aerial
Recovery dot event I think is where you go to
kind of buy tickets and stuff. I did a charity
event once with Christina Stephano. And I don't get up
and play next to you good guys often because I
do comedy and I remember, and there's a reason I
(02:37):
think Chris reminded me why I don't. CHRISTI reminds me
why I don't like to play next to Christy just
like singing that at certain octaves, singing carry songs and
it's just like god, dang dude, I'm over here to
singing songs about working a hobby lobby poorly, and he's
crushing it. But both of you guys have that in common,
(02:59):
and that your boats such great singers. I think that
you're being very humble there, because I mean, you had
a solo deal way before you turned into the great writer.
I had miserably failed solo dealers. But was it a
miserably failed deal though, I mean, I would say otherwise,
I mean to get a deal first of all? Period
incredibly different. Sure, So was that deal in Nashville based deal?
(03:23):
It was? It was? It was Arista Nashville based back
in that's all was Arista and obviously Arista as an
imprint outside of his country music. So did you move
to town and then pursue a like a the career
to be a singer? It was that the idea, That
was the idea. You know, it's it's it's a really
long story, but we have all the time for it.
There you go. Well, I I was in medical school,
(03:44):
just like all good country songs, you're in medical school
to do what I was going to be in the
r doc. That was my kind of plan for life.
My dad and granddad were both docs, so that's kind
of grew up in that world. Yeah, I just you know,
they just seemed like the natural thing, and and up
my my freshman year of med school in Oklahoma, where
I'm from, I go and I see it. You know,
(04:05):
I went to college in Texas and I grew up
in Oklahoma, so you know, I loved country music anyway.
But I went and saw Steve Warner concert one night.
Who's getting into song with a whole fame in a month.
I'm so excited because he's awesome. I go see a
Steve Warner show and kind of watched him one night,
and he's an amazing player. And I was like, Okay,
I'll never play guitar like that, but I think the
rest of it I might be able to do. And
(04:27):
so I kind of when, you know, because everybody it
kind of has that moment. I'm sure you had your
moment where you're like, this is what I can do
and I can be pretty good at it, and and
you know, that was kind of my little moment where
maybe I should start writing songs in my free time.
And so that's what I did. I started writing songs
my free time. And did you sing though? In high school?
Like fifteen, were you singing? You know? In church? Yeah?
(04:47):
And I was in a group that even traveled from church,
we sing in other churches. So I grew up singing
in church, and that's how I learned to sing. So
I kind of knew I could sing. But were you
a celebrated singer at church? When when the group would
go in with it be like this is this is
a little bread a little brad can saying, yeah it
was a little bit. I was. I was. I was
a guy who got most of solos and stuff like that,
so yeah, a little bit, And I knew I could
sort of, you know, I was singing at high school
(05:08):
graduation and stuff like that, like like a lot of
kids in high school, but I never you know where
I'm from, you don't. It's not on the list of
things you think you can do for a job. It's
not really one of those things in high school they say,
yeah you should, you can do this, you know, right,
But your grandfather's a doctor, your dad's doctor. Those are
pretty practical jobs as far as jobs that if you
go to school and you study and you get the
right grades and you perform, you get the job. You
(05:30):
get the job. That's right. This this industry is not
that in any way whatsoever. And so what did they
say about when you finally expressed to your dad even, hey,
I think I want to not do medicine, right, you know.
He he was all about it, interestingly enough, because he
was kind of a frustrated singer himself, and and you know,
he'd been a doctor for a long time by that time,
(05:51):
and it kind of changed the job description to change.
He was kind of like one of these small town
doctors who just you know, takes care of the grandparents
and delivers the grand babies and everything in between. And
and he and it and just medicine had changed. So
he was a little like, go chase your dream. That's
what he was about. And that's what happened to me.
I came out here. I'd written, like, you know, ten songs,
and I put five of them. I literally took, you know,
(06:14):
my summer job money and paid for a little studio
in Oklahoma City and sent it to my one contact
in the music business, who was my friend Deb from college,
who was an intern in college radio promotion in ann Arbor.
So that was my you know, it was my big end.
But unfortunately she gave it to her boss. Her boss
had been a big deal and her boss as well.
(06:34):
I'd like to manage you. When can you come to Nashville?
So let me get this straight. So An Arbor, Michigan, right?
Is that where? Right? That's where she was based. Okay,
that's not really that close to Nashville. So who's her boss?
Her boss is I think still lives here. A lady
named Marine Nally and Rene had been a big A
and R person. She actually started the at CO record
label for Atlantic in New York. But live here, no,
(06:57):
and but she had she had some contacts here and
she'd done some really cool stuff with some bands from Nashville,
like she discovered in Excess and she she had had
some had a big career and then gone back home,
moved back home to ann Arbor, And so she was like,
can I meet you in Nashville? I want to introduce
you some people. And anyway, long story short, as I
came into a spring break in my sophomore year and
it was my third day. We we met with a
(07:18):
couple of labels and they kind of patted me on
the head and you know, sent me back and from
that demo, like they heard the demo they met with Yeah,
mainly they met with me because they knew her, you know,
she got the meetings. So we go in, we played
the music and they're like, nice to meet you. We
have lunch and and you know, see again some time.
And then randomly we're in another guy's office that she knows,
and I play some music for kind of Cliff Alder
(07:38):
and she might know Cliff or his son cliffy Um.
And we're in his office and I play some songs
for him and I'm this kid and the Cowboy have
from Oklahoma. And he's like, it's pretty good. And this
is the way Nashville kind of worked back then. He
literally got on his landline, called up Tim Dubois and said, Tim,
I think I got a guy over here. It's pretty
good and Tim said bring him over. So literally ten
(08:01):
minutes later, I'm in the you know, the president of
Arista's office, Tim Dubas at the time, and they were
they were crushing it, you know, Alan Jackson and Brooks
and Dunne and all these acts. And I'm sitting in
his office playing playing music for him. In twenty minutes later,
he's like, Mr, I've never told anybody this, but if
you moved to Nashville, I'll give you a record deal.
Did you know that how heavy it was the room.
Not really, I don't think I had a clue how
(08:23):
big a deal he was at the time. You know,
um I learned later. Did you guess, and I guess.
Do you think your performance when performing in that room
for Tim Duas? Do you feel like, because you didn't
really know, you were allowed to just perform as you
normally would. And if you did, actually knowing you were
educated on the process, maybe you would have you'd have
been a little tight, because like I'm with the president
(08:43):
of probably so exactly. It's probably nice that I didn't
kind of, you know, kind of gather how how important
he was. You gotta deal that quick. I mean, you
weren't even living here, right, it was nuts. It was
nus he and but what was you know? I I said,
you know, he offered me a deal, and I was like, well,
I'm in med school. I'm gonna have to think of
at it a little bit. And he said, well, you're
gonna have to move here if you want to do this,
(09:03):
you know, And he gave me his, you know, home
phone number because nobody even had cell phones back then.
So here's my number. Call me if you if you
want to do this. And what happened was I decided
to take a year off med school finished that year,
I took my medical board exams all that stuff, and uh,
the day after I took my board exams, I moved
to Nashville. But I knew, like instinctively, I wasn't ready,
(09:25):
you know, to do this too. I just, you know,
I've written ten songs, and I just knew I wasn't ready.
So I got a job waiting tables in midtown cafe.
And so you moved here, but you didn't take I
didn't call him for nine months. So you moved here.
I did. You went through with that part, the part
that kind of is hard, but the part that's kind
of cool he's started not to do yet. Yeah, I
(09:46):
just I just didn't think I was ready. You know.
I was like, I don't know who I am, I
don't know what I'm doing. I don't you know, have
a clue about this business. And so I just started
playing you know, open mic nights, just like everybody else.
And and I, you know, I got, like I said,
waited tables. And fortunately, you know, it was the early nineties.
It was a little different town back then. If you
(10:06):
could like play three chords and sing any at all,
somebody to give you a publishing deal. So I got
lucky that I got a publishing deal. About three months later,
Tim the Ball never walked into a restaurant like that.
He did not. He did not, And so I called him, like,
you know, finally I'd recorded some demos and kind of
felt like I was comfortable playing him some new music
and called him nine months later, said, you know, it'd
been a year since I met with him and had
(10:27):
that meeting, and he was I was like, I don't
even know if you remember who I am, but a
year ago you told me if I moved here, you
give me a deal. He said, I remember you. So
I came in and he signed me, and that's the
way that got started. So what happens then, So you
have a deal, you put out a couple of songs.
I'm gonna have them here. Failed miserably. Yes, everything fail,
because I can tell you from just a personal experience.
(10:48):
Like I had a show we were we had tried
to pilot for it, and the networks about to pick
it up. Then they changed all of the executives, so
they went, this wasn't our show, so we're not going
to go through with it. So I can go, well,
that felt miserably, or I can go, well, the reason
I never got a shot because it's not it's not
anybody's fault exactly. And you know, that whole thing just
(11:08):
wasn't meant to be Looking back, you know, Um, I
was trying. I mean, we're doing radio tours, We're going
to see all the stations and and they're all telling
me they're gonna play the records, and then they don't,
you know, and that's happened. Still. Lots of artists were
heartbroken when that deal didn't work out. You know, I
wasn't heartbroken. It was more like, uh, because it didn't
it kind of drug out. It was about a five
(11:28):
year period of it not working because put out a
couple of singles, they don't work. Then you go back
into make another album, you change producers. You're kind of
you know how that that game works with with artists.
You're just trying to figure it out. And when it
finally went away, it was literally five years later. And um,
I was not heartbroken, but I was, honestly I was.
I'd be embarrassed. It was sort of like, you know,
(11:51):
weren't you the guy that was supposed to you know,
have your had you had a had a seedy and
Walmart for a minute, you know. And I remember being
on music row and walking into my publishing coming just
being like embarrassed, like kind of feeling like he's that's
the guy that didn't work and he's washed up. Now,
you know, it was real, It was a real thing.
Was there ever a time that you purposefully said, well,
I'm gonna pivot because because you had to also decide
(12:12):
not to pursue it anymore, even if you don't have
a deal. Like I've had friends who have had deals
and they've gone away or they've lost it, or and
they go, Okay, well I can do it independent, I
can go sign somewhere else. I cannot do it. Some
of them have become wonderful songwriters. Sure, Like, what was
that moment for you and how did you make that decision? Well,
it was a little different. It was a little different
pivot for me. I was it was ninety nine. I've
(12:37):
been in Nashville for seven years and had lost my
record deal and my publishing deal had gotten cut by
like two thirds. You know, when I was early twenties,
I'm making great money, because everybody thought I was gonna
be Tim was still everyway's gonna be Garth Brooks. So
I had this, you know, some some good money and
all that stuff happening, and all of a sudden, it's
Ninete and I'm like, I think I'm almost thirty years
old and I have two little babies, and um. I
(12:59):
literally walked into Target one day and almost if I've
ever had a panic attack, this was it. I was
standing in Target and I'm in the like the kid's clothing,
and I see this little pair of, you know, one
year old tennis shoes, and I looked at him. I
was like, and I'd really like to buy this from
my kid, but I can't afford him. And I'm not
going to live like this. And so I decided then
(13:20):
and there, um that I was going to figure something out.
But all I've ever done was go to med school
and and be a songwriter. And so I literally snail
mailed to med school a letter and said, I know
you're only supposed to get one year off. I've been
out for seven. Is there any chance I can get
back in? You know? And the dean snail mailed me back,
and she said, well, you've been at a long time.
(13:42):
But yes, you can come back, but you gotta start.
You have to repeat your sophomore year. And so I
did that. I went back to med school after being
in town for for seven years in um and you know,
my ex wife now and kids stayed here in Nashville
to sell the house. So I just went back and
moved in with my parents who lived there, and UM,
(14:03):
I started back to med school, you know, at thirty
as a sophomore, you know, just and it was it
was a huge relief. I was like, man, you know,
I gave Nashville shot, um, but at least I know
I'm gonna be able to feed my kids. And that's
that's you know, at some point when you're dad, that's
all that matters in the world. And that's all that
mattered to me, you know. And but what happened was
God sort of had another plan. I went back to
(14:24):
med school in September one, still had a had a
year left on a publishing deal, and they were really cool.
I said, we'll just keep writing. Maybe something will happen.
I go back to med sical on September one, and
Faith Hill Cutch, one of my songs in September four
on a Breathe album and then ended up getting thirty
three cuts in the next nine months and had five
top ten singles. So thirty three cups of songs you'd
already written, mostly and somebody written. Somebody was writing. In
(14:47):
med school. I had a dear friend who's a huge
hit song writer named Troy Burgers, and he he was
a kid like twenty three or four at the time,
and he decided, you know, we started to get hot
as a as kind of a writing team, and uh
so he would come to Oklahoma and we write songs
out there. So a lot of those were new songs
that I was. I go to med school until two
and he'd he'd be waking up, you know, and then
(15:07):
we write until we write songs and I'd come, I'd
fly back into Nashville and we demo him up and
that kind of stuff. So you were hustling pretty hard, yeah, Prety,
So what was the faith Sale song? It was a
song called love the Sweet Thing. It was not a single,
but it was on that album that you know, her
Breathe record. But that's probably I mean, really, when you
think about the songs, I mean, I could list every
number one of the ten million you have. But that's probably,
when you look back, one of the most important songs
(15:28):
to your entire career. Oh. Absolutely. It kind of started
opening doors and I kind of found the right publishing situation.
I worked with a grilling Kelly King, who was my
song plow and Mark Bright who but Kelly was my
song pluggers. She's still around Nashville as well, and uh,
you know, it was just amazing because I was kind
of her only writer, and so I'd write songs and
she'd kind of get them out there, and you know,
I'd be and it was a it was a crazy
(15:49):
time because I'd be literally studying for a pathologies and
examined the library and I'd get up and a call
on my flip phone Brett, you know, Tim mcgrage, just
cut tell your rider that Martin hu provide, just cut
lust or whatever. And I was like, you know, there's
there's nobody around a high five with I just kind
of like do a little dance in the in the
library and call it. Because so my assumption that you
didn't finish medical school, I didn't you and quit again,
(16:12):
which was some years under your exactly, and took exams
and then I had an interesting conversation with that. Dean
was an interesting so because the legal rules, we can
only play five seconds of music at this point, but
we're gonna hit five seconds hard, Mike, Are you ready?
This was your first number one. This is Jessck Andrews
Who I Am. That's a song that's still today is
(16:37):
played as what they call a recurrent because it was
such a big song from those early two thousand years.
And that's your first number one. It was the first
number one. Yeah, it was, you know what a blessing
it was? It was. It was awesome when you wrote
the song. Was it just one in a mix? Or
did you go, Man, if somebody just gets That's always
my question because sometimes, like you know, it's just another one.
We just wrote it and thought what about? We thought
(16:59):
that one was special? Quite honestly, you know, I wrote
that back to med school. I wrote that in my
parents kitchen with Troy verges Um after I had gone
to class one day and and uh, we had heard
there was a new artist named Jessica Andrews who was
looking for a you know, a kind of a female anthem,
and and I remember I spit out, like what about
we write it just called who I am and like
(17:20):
I am and literally the first thing I said was
Rosemary granddaughter and and Troy said the spitting image of
my father. And we're like on our way and uh
and uh. Troy's girlfriend at the time, who's now a
Hall of Fame songwriter, Hillary lindsay, Um, she wasn't even writing,
but she uh, she was kind of enough to sing
the demo for us on that song. And um, so
(17:41):
after Hillary saying it, we knew there was something special
about it. And then Jessica did an amazing John did
you feel when you weren't focusing strictly on performance and
your vocal and you're just you your record deal, when
you just focused on writing that you became a better writer.
(18:04):
Did you always feel like you were a really good right? Like,
when did you start to feel like, Okay, I'm actually
competitive and if I focus this right, I'm great. I
don't think I don't think I still feel that way,
thank you. I'm still working on that one. But um,
you know what what Troy and I kind of what
what what going back to med school did for me
(18:24):
was free me up a lot um. You know, it
was sort of like a creative thing where it was Okay,
now my kids are gonna get fed. I'm not I'm
not just struggling trying to I'm not dying to try
to get the next George Straight Cut so that you know,
I can feed the family anymore. I have a job,
I have a plan, and so I'm gonna kind of say,
(18:46):
you know, screw it, you got to play, you got
to play loose. I said, screw it, and let's just
write what we love. And that's really what happened now year.
I mean that that's a bizarrely remarkable story that one
you go to med school, you quit med school, you come,
you get a jo, you go back to med school,
you quit med school after you and got another record.
By the way, I signed another record deal with Arista
(19:07):
again after after that year in med school, and just
like that one failed miserably too. So here we go.
This is a wild story. It's like you keep I know,
and not the same, but you keep marrying your ex
wife over and over in a different one. It's like
different different xt wives. Would you keep marrying Yeah yeah, um.
Just looking at some of the accolades, like the big accolades,
(19:29):
like you hit you have it's six number ones in
two thousand nine, And I had to look again three
times to make sure I'm not reading all the numbers
wrong because six and nines are upside down and us.
But I think you had six number ones in two
thousand nine. I think I did. That's I can't believe that,
and I can because I'm looking at it. But when
I read it, I was like, am I looking at
this right? Six? I turned the screen nine. I want
(19:49):
to roll through these quickly in this year, have two
thousand nine? All six these number ones? Rodney Atkins, It's America,
Kenny Chesney, out Last nine, Carry Underwood, Cowboy, Casanova, Chris Young,
the Man I want to Be, Jason Aldi and the Truth,
(20:16):
Rascal Flat, Summer Nights. I'm tired just reading them all
there like that in a row. So, whenever you have
this many number ones in a row, is it so
hard to write? Because everybody wants to write with you.
That's never that's never a bad thing. If everybody wants
to write what it's like. And I've had brief parts
of my career where you're the shiny toy for a second.
(20:36):
Everybody wants play with a shiny toy. When you start
to have this unparalleled success writing two thousand nine, two
thou eight, I'm making even go backward. I mean, is
it people constantly calling going, hey, I just love to
get on your calendar at some point, even if it's
six months from now. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's what happens.
And that's a fun place to be, you know, because
you kind of get to pick and choose who you
want to work with and get to you know, you know,
(20:57):
do do do the days you love and not not
do as many as of the days that you don't.
And it's it's a pretty cool, you know thing. But
you know, I always say that, you know, and in
the music business, it's like most businesses, it's you know,
it's it's who's Brett James. Get me Brett James. Give
you the next Brett James. Who's Brett James. Yeah, that's
kind of the that's the arc of most careers, you know,
And I think you have to kind of I always
(21:18):
tell the writers that I work with. I've had a
publishing company for like fifteen years, so I get to
be around young writers and I'm like, you're never as
as hot as you think you're When you're hot and
you're never is not when you're not, you know, And
and I think you kind of have to learn to
have some thick skin and not to not to think
you're so cool when things are working, so that when
things aren't working, you don't get in the dumps either,
you know that makes sense? Yeah, And I tell new
(21:39):
artists or just as an example, we had a group
that was in a couple of weeks when I was
talking to them and they had had some success on
on television, And it's like, when you get to be
shining for a second, make all the relationships that you
can make, all the relationships to you because it's not
going to change your life just to be cool for
a second. But the relationships that you make and that
(22:02):
you keep will actually help you through your career for
a long time. So just don't go like I'm cool now,
who wants to work with me? It's like dig in.
Find your spots that you're finally allowed to get. They're
very important. Make a few real strong connections, like I
was like with the operay, you're in with the operation now,
like really value that connection because maybe they wouldn't have
got to look, we don't ever get a look any
(22:22):
of us until we have some sort of success. But
it's like, what do you grab onto and really develop
out from this moment that you're successful, cool, whatever word
you want to use there, And it's that's exactly and
that's what I was telling them too. It's like, you know,
you're you feel everybody in social medialling you, they love you.
You're probably not that cool right now, but when you were,
when you're not cool again, you're probably not that not
(22:42):
cool again because there are a lot of people that
still think you're awesome. It's never too high, never too low,
you know what. I try to My therapist though, tells
me that I am on a straight line, regardless of
all the time I've never hired, all never loved, I
never really yeah, yeah, something I'm going to get to
interview you about that. I don't go up or down,
and I think it's I always want because you can't
(23:02):
really experience like true happiness if you can't feel some sadness, right,
it's almost it's almost an equal scale, like if you
can let yourself feel, you get to feel way down
or way up. And so I have trouble feeling the
sad I think probably from childhood trauma. So I don't
ever feel good about that same way. I think I'm
very much the same way. I think you just kind
(23:23):
of find your I think, and I think men are
more likely to be that way and set. Yeah, I'm
kind of that same way, and I do think that
in maybe especially on the songwriting side of things and
the artist side of things, you have to be that
way because you know, there's always another single that you're
either it's either winning or it's losing, or there's always
another you know, cut that you're either getting or you're
(23:44):
not getting, and you know you you you have to
come and in the song I decide it most of
the time, it's not most of the time it's disappointment,
you know. And so you have to kind of just
just learn to to to love what you do and
and not not feel too high too low, I don't think,
because if I if I felt at all, I'd go crazy.
I mean, in a creative world, if you let the
(24:04):
lows dominate you, because it's it's low eighty five to
ninety percent of the time. If you're if you're succeeding,
if you're if you're crushing it exactly if you're sixty
if you know, and I think you'll understand this probably
better than even I do. But it's like at times
people will be like, man, you're really killing it. But
I'm like, if you guys had any idea how much
how many knows I get, or or what I wanted
(24:26):
and didn't get, or what how glamorous it looks and
it ain't. You know, that's a lot of what we do. Absolutely,
it's getting beat up most of the time, and it's
getting back up when you get beat up, and staying
up just long enough to finally get a bite the worms.
Finally you get a bit the worms? What was in
your mind? What was the more well, I can't believe
(24:46):
this just happened moment? Was it that year two thousand nine?
Or wasn't one of the Grammy with carry back a
few years before that? Man? You know, all of those
are great. You know, I don't think we knew when
Jesus take the it was happening. How you know what
a big deal it was. You know, quite honestly, I
don't think it kind of hit me that well, this
is I'm gonna be talking about that song. You know,
(25:08):
seventeen years later you still play that one. If you
play usually almost I'm almost always. I feel like if
I don't, it's somebody's gonna throw something at me. But yeah,
I think both of both those moments were great, and
both these usual great. Yeah, but if you had if
we had to eliminate one, somebody shows up, but the
old men in black thing that goes, all right, letna
make you forget one of them, which you know, I
(25:29):
got to be Songwater of the Year twice, and and
though that's that's a really fun cool thing because it's
kind of based on more body of work than just
one song, you know, and I think that was those
those are pretty special trophies to me. Where do you
have the Graham at your house? It's in my office. Actually, yeah,
it's in my office. Do you pettit? I do not?
(25:49):
Maybe not. I wish I had more than one, let's
put it that way. But you know there's people that
have lots. I got to work at Allison Cross's house
the other day with her son, and you know Alison,
you know, she's so which she just brings his coffee.
You know, I'm just like someone with twenty eight Grammys
just gave me coffee and that's that's just a cool thing.
(26:12):
What is it for you? I think you go, wow,
this is cool. Where most people maybe wouldn't think that.
You think it's the coolest thing. And I give an
example as you think about answer, because it's a tough one. Um.
I got an airplane once and Barry Switzer was on
and I'm from Arkansas and he was played at Arkansas,
you know, coach the Cowboys, coached Oklahoma, and I was like,
just the freaking coolest thing ever. And I would tell
(26:34):
my friends of it, like I don't I don't really
fall sports. I don't care that kind of thing, but
I'm like, this is so cool and that's not even
something that I like earned or deserve. I interviewed Dan
Patrick on my sports show the other day, and I'm like,
this is the coolest thing. And I tell people like, yeah,
I don't know, but to me, that's that's like legit,
Like that's the coolest thing. What for you? Who is
it or what happened where You're like, this is like
(26:55):
different world and never thought i'd be here. But most
people probably won't even think it's as cool as I do. Well, Well,
it's it's funny because the one that pops into my
head is not about a superstar, you know, it's a
because you know, like you said, I've gotten to be
around Garth and Staying and some pretty you know Taylor
and people like that. He's just like, that's just insane,
you know, you to even think about it. And like, literally,
(27:16):
I'm at the n s A. I think two weeks ago,
and I hadn't. I was Taylor's you know, producer when
she was like thirteen, you know, you know, before she
came back and had all her success. And then I'm
walking down the back hall and Taylor just steps out
of her saying season. She's like, you know, it's like
old home with you know, Taylor Swift, which is pretty
crazy because I have a daughter who worships everything everything
(27:38):
Taylor Swift. But for me, the moment that strikes me
is like, you know, I'm convinced that whoever your superstar
superhero was when you're like in fourth or fifth grade,
is that person whatever? And for me, it's a Christian
singer named rust Half, and um, you probably never heard
of him, but he was a big deal around like
in Christian music, and I'll never forget the only time
I ever suit got superstar struck. I was. I was
(27:59):
writing a song with Marcus Hummond at his house and
like the nineties, and I didn't know Rust Half was
his next door neighbor. I would have stalked him. And
so I'm sitting there with Marcus when we're writing a
song and Russ Taff walks and they're best friends. He goes, hey,
your dogs in the yard again. He's like, you got
any coffee made? You know, kind of kind of like that,
and Mark said yeah, He's like, there's coffee in the kitchen,
(28:19):
and Rust this is but and I literally just cried.
He didn't know what I'm doing. It's like a Tuesday afternoon.
Who was And I literally tears just came to my eyes.
And all I could say was like, you're my hero,
you know. And I think that it's those moments that
kind of, you know, catch you off guard and to
make me go, wow, I can't believe I've gotten to
(28:40):
do this. Yeah, that stuff to me, it's like, what,
like that's for example, I get to go and I'm
big Arkansas guy. Grew up in Arkansas. We didn't have
a lot of money and so maybe would get to
go to one game a year. But now it's like
when I get to go back and even just get
to go in the locker room, I'm just like, I
cannot believe this. But my friends like, but you get
to like it doesn't matter all that other stuff I
do all the time. Like this to me is like,
(29:02):
there's a lot of value in this because when I
was nine, this is what I dreamed of, was being
here at this place looking at these lockers and for
you was rust haft Well and Barry Switzer would be
it from me too. I mean, I grew up in
the in the seventies in Oklahoma. Man, there's nothing nothing,
there was nothing bigger than Barry Swits sports guy. Huh
what what what's your sport and team? And I'm a
(29:23):
college football you know. That's really what I come back
to is always college football. Baylor and I went to
Baylor undergrad. And want toell you two. And I grew
up in Oklahoma, so Baylor, no, you were my two
two main teams. But I've adopted a few mothers. Might
got a son at Auburn now, so I'm rooting for Auburn.
And and but yeah, Baylor, know you, yeah, I see
you drove up on a motorcycle, and I'm scared of
death of a lot of things, including motorcycles. You have
(29:45):
to watch out for so many things when riding a motorcycle. Yes,
and there and so many of those things are idiots. Oh,
and there's an unlimited amount of idiots. Yeah, it's it's
I just pretend like every car is gonna kill me.
That's the way. Literally, I just as I'm driving, I'm
playing this game like like that one's gonna swerve into me,
and this one's gonna swear, and and the person behind
(30:06):
is not gonna know that I'm turning. So I just
need to expect that all the time. I mean, I think,
and I think, you know, and I ride it around
town at forty miles an hour. I don't I don't
do anything crazy on a motorcycle, but I like to
put around town. But you know, that could be the
most dangerous time, because you're right, there's so many stupid people.
It's it's all the time. Everybody's on their phones now too,
which is worse. You know, you know what, the phones.
(30:27):
That's a that's a whole new last five year wrinkle,
isn't it. Right? When did you start riding a motorcycle
about ten or twelve years ago something like that. Yeah,
I bet the phones made it a lot more dangerous.
Yeah they have, for sure, for sure. For sure you
have the radio ke you trying to do? You turn
the radio up real out. I don't turn up, and
you gotta have that light to hear it while you're riding.
But it's also like when you're slowing down, there should
(30:48):
almost be a the volume turns itself down automatically. Wouldn't
that be nice? Because I don't know because you pull
up next to motor I don't turn my radio on
everyone I ride because I like to hear the other
car that's about to swerve into me and kill me,
but because they all will and are planning on it
right um, But yeah, I don't. I don't turn it
up at all. I want to play. I was looking
through your entire catalog here and I was trying to
(31:10):
find the song because you have again so many. The
one that I love, I think the most is one
of your more recent number ones. Is that Kenny Chesney
Knowing you because I love Emo Kenny. I'm not really
big into Beach Kenny, because I don't like to beach
that much. I grew up in Arkansas, so I know
I don't have this affinity for the beach and we
never want on vacations, so I never went to the beach.
I never thought I've never heard it called emo Kenny,
(31:31):
but I get it. My favorite Kenny is Emo Kenny
when he singing sad songs or slow songs, and so
knowing you might could be a place of this all,
damn it was good. How do you get a song
to Kenny? Well, I'm lucky because I know Kenny pretty well.
I just texted to him, and I just texted to
(31:52):
his phone and he just says yes or no. If
you send Kenny ten songs, how many yes his nose
or and no responses? Oh wow? Well, and he never
says no. It's always in no response like like he
he never says I don't like that one, And I
kind of I love that about him. He's just don't
get anything back. You know, you never go you never
hear that. That totally sucks. Would you leave me alone?
That's good that he doesn't do that. Um, it's usually
(32:14):
no response and out of you know, I would say
it's one out of twenty really that you get Yeah,
I'm into that or I'm not at that. But Kenny
has He's such a song guy. He texted me the
day before yesterday about a song that I played for
him seven or eight years ago, and he's like, do
you still have that version that the duet and blah
(32:34):
blah blah blah blah. He never forgets a song. It's incredible,
And did you still have the version? I did and
had anyone cut it? Nobody's cut it, so I'm hoping
he will. Yeah, Caitlyn Smith thing doet on it. It's
amazing on the fence, that's sell it pretty good. Um,
oldest song that was ever cut? Meaning you mentioned that
six or seven years you wrote a song X amount
(32:56):
of years later it finally gets cut and becomes a hit.
What comes to your mind? There? The truth pops in
in my head. Um, we had written I wrote that
with Ashi Monroe, who I just love too. We're actually
getting ready to go to Brazil together trip saw her
there or four days ago. Yeah, we had it. I
love her. She's the best. Yeah, and I've known her
since she was fifteen. Somehow. I started working her when
she was really young, and I think we wrote that
song when she was about sixteen or seventeen in my
(33:18):
living room. Um and uh, but you know, the truth
is kind of a weird song. You don't really really
know what it's about until the very end of the song,
the last two lines, which is, you know, breaks every
songwriting rule there is. And so we wrote it and
just sat on shelves and we just thought it was
never gonna pop up, you know, And all of a sudden,
you know, like six or seven years later, I don't
(33:39):
even know how I was gonna ask, how does it?
I don't know long enough to get around no clue.
I have no idea how. Jason never heard that song,
but I'm glad he did, and he sure he sure
crushed it. And there was another one called You Saved Me.
There was a Kenny song that just got happened in
the same kind of deal. It was probably ten years old.
What's in Brazil? We're going to a riding camp to
write Brazilian music and Portuguese. Of course we are. Why
(34:00):
wouldn't we be doing you know, I thought you would
go to Brazil or right country music song for the
country music people who wanted to fly to Brazil. But
I'm way wrong on that so what, how and what
and why. It's a really long story, but um, we
both right work with a coming called Warner Chapel here
in town, big publisher, and they have offices all over
the world. And um, you know, I get this email
one day, Hey, do you want to go to sell
(34:21):
Apollo to write this new kind of Brazilian music that
is apparently huge? Apparently this new genre of Brazilian music
is taking over the world or something. And it's gonna
be a little camp with like five Nashville Riders and
and studios, and you're gonna it's all gonna be in
Portuguese and you're gonna have translators. I have no idea
we're going into But so you haven't done this yet.
I haven't done it yet. We're leaving. We're leaving Sunday,
(34:44):
actually asked you. Monroe, Liz Rose, me and a couple
other people are gonna go down and because that see
what happens, does it excite you a lot? You like,
it's just it's just, you know, I look at it
like it's a cultural experience. I've never been to Brazil,
and I, you know, don't know a thing about the music.
But I'm gonna do a lot of I'm gonna educate
myself before Sunday, hopefully. Are you doing Rosetta Stone and Portuguese?
I am not at all. No, I'm not. I'm doing
(35:06):
d lingo friends right now. I'm trying to learn friends.
We had Dan Huff, and we've talked to Dan a
couple of times, and you know, he would talk about
how he'd be at an airport and did hear a song?
I guess I really like that guitar part, and he'd
later realized I was him who played it. So you've
had five hundred plus songs cut. You ever hear a
song and not realized that it was yours? I have?
(35:27):
I did it recently. Um, I was with Drew Green
and artists that I love and worked with. We read
he was actually playing a wedding and and we're at
this wedding somewhere and nowhere they'd won they'd won the
you know, they won, they'd won a contest, and so
Drew's up there singing and and I heard this song, like, man,
I kind of like that, I kind of you know,
I think it's pretty cool. And somehow it was familiar
(35:48):
and ended up being a Larry Fleet song that I
had written just just a few months ago, and I
was like, wow, that's what you spent a bunch of
years on the board for the c m as. I
have a heart hitting question here is why have I
been black balled so long to be the host of
the c M as. You know, we've had discussions about
(36:08):
and it just never goes the right way. I have
no idea, and I'm not on that board anymore now. Yeah,
I don't know they have they talked to you about it,
because all I hear like there's certain channels you've been
black balled, and I can't get down to the bottom.
I don't can't believe that. Listen. I've had some pretty
prominent folks in here tell me off. He said, like,
(36:29):
you know, there's the systems holding you down, and they
won't exactly tell me who the system is? Is it you? Yeah? No,
you know It's funny, man. The c MA is like
I have been on that board for a long time,
and I hear so many things about that board, and
yet they're all you know them all, they're all the
sweetest people. Exactly who do I not? Somebody? Right, I
(36:52):
don't know. I don't know, I'm sure that's going to happen.
Something just to happen somewhere. You just send me a
little carrier pigeon and you let me know. I'm to
get to the bottom. I'm gonna get to the bottom
of this. When you're at the Grammys, did you get
to sit by anybody cool? Yes? Um, well, the one
time I ever got nominated for the big like to
get in the big room was just amazing. That was
for Jesus take will We We? One country song? But
(37:13):
we were up for a real song, and you know,
we got to sit like on the fifth row and
I was like in front of John Mayor and behind
John Legend, and you know, it was pretty heavy stuff,
you know, And I would literally, like in breaks, I
would just get up and act like I was just
stretching my legs and just just to walk around my
section just to like just to see people. You know
what I'm saying that you're you're everyone right now, every one.
(37:34):
I literally like, I'm you know, you're not staring at him,
but you're getting to walk past you know. I mean
I remember justin Timberlake played twice that nine. Stuff like that.
You're just like, Okay, I just gotta I just gotta
walk around a little bit just to just to see
these people. Did you prepare a speech? No, you didn't,
even just in case I didn't. I'm not a preparer,
and I knew, honestly. I wrote that song with Hilly
(37:55):
Lindsay and Gordy Sampson, and I knew I'd have to
let Hillary do the talk and anyway, so it was
all good. You say you're not a preparer, then let
me put this into your everyday practical life. When your
professional practical life, do you prepare notes for songs and
ideas that you have at this point? Absolutely not as
much as I should. And I think that's what I think.
That's that's a lesson for all songwriters that I need
(38:15):
to do better at because you get old and you
get lazy. You know, I always I keep titles and
and concepts, and you know, I'm always putting them on
my phone. But the really great writers, the ones that
everybody wants to write with, are the ones that write
walk in with something that's great and it's you know,
got a verse or of got it's got, it's got,
it's got some real form to it. And I can
(38:38):
just say that that the young writers that I know
that are being super successful in Nashville right now, they
walk into rooms really prepared, and I think that's I
think that's half the battle. You ever accidentally rewrite or
have the same melody of a previous song of yours,
(38:58):
because it is your brain that had initially Does it
ever come up again? Like, oh did I already do?
Because you have some it's five that's been cut, but
I've written over for That's what I'm saying, that's it's
been cut. It's kind of impossible not to um, to
be honest with you, especially because it's you know, but
what what what you try to do, having done it
as long as I've been doing, is try to find
new lanes. You know, new lanes make your brain go
(39:20):
different places, so you're not falling into the same you know,
melodies that that you have written before, and you know,
so I think that's the sort of the challenge have,
you know, after you've written a lot, so you're this
event we're talking about specifically, but just when you go
when you play a show with great songwriters and you're
showcasing the songs that that have become hits for you,
(39:42):
and you get four. What four do you play more
than not? What are your what are your mount rushmore
of songs that you play when you play I almost
always do that last night because it's got a fun
story to it. And that's you know, you know those shows,
those stories are you know, those songs are just as
much about the stories. Uh what's the story? Uh? The
(40:02):
store is out? Last night was you know, it started
in my kitchen. I was standing in my kitchen on
Christmas Eve and my cell phone rang and um, you
know the voice on the other the line, which was Kenny.
I was like, hey man, you know what are you
doing day after tomorrow? You know? And so I had,
you know, four children under the age of twelve at
the time, you know, when it's Christmas Eve, you know,
(40:23):
so the joke is well, of course, I said, well nothing, man,
you know what you gotta mind because and he said,
why don't we got to the islands and to write
some songs. And so we did, you know, because those
four children know what pays for Christmas presence around my house.
I ended up in you know, the islands on December
and Kenny and I have, you know, we have we
always have a good time together. In this particular night.
(40:43):
We we made a night of it, you know, And
so I woke up the next morning and I was,
I was, I woke up way before he did. I
remember I was playing guitar and sipping coffee, and a
couple of hours later, the sliding glass door to his bedroom,
you know, he kind of sticks his head out and
he's like, at we went out last night, and I said, dah,
(41:04):
we did. And that's the song we had a right today.
So that's how kind of out we We kind of
wrote it about the night before a little bit, and
we actually wrote two number one that day. We wrote
a song called Reality that afternoon. Same day. The same day,
it was you guys should go out more greatest. I know, Kenny,
if you're listening, actually we need to go out more
and do this again. Okay, that's song number one? What
song number two? Um? I almost always play Mr know
(41:26):
at all like Kelly Clarkson, just because it's fun to
sing and you know, and maybe people don't expect you
to sing. If expect me to sing, you wrote, I mean,
I guess that's it. People don't expect you two have
written Kelly Clarkson songs because you're a massive country music songwriter.
I guess so that's probably part of the reason I
played it, because you you never know there's there may
be somebody in that audience. It's not a country music fan,
(41:46):
but they might have listened to Kelly Clarkson on pop
radio and so and it's just a fun really, you know,
it's such a weird song to sing because you know,
you write these songs as a middle aged dude and
then you're singing I Am Rosemary's Grand in front of
strangers or you know, Mr Nolodle in front of strangers.
But um, it's still fun, you know. And it's fun
to kind of being character for that one, and and
(42:07):
and play that. I almost always play the Truth just
because I do love that song. It's one of my
one of I'm most proud of. And um, then I
almost always and would Jesus take the Wheel? If those
are the four? That's probably about about the four? Can
you hit that when you're singing Jesus not in her key?
I can't? You gotta change the key. That's it's fun. Yeah,
Carrie songs are wow. You know, you know, they're they're
(42:31):
hard to they're hard to do live. You know, but
they're they're also really fun and challenging. Stephane and I
were at one with her together called um something in
the water that's always really fun. I heard him, you know,
he played that next to me once and then I
just went, I'm gonna tap out of this round and
he had like a drum under his phone. Yeah, And
it came to me there and I had a little
(42:53):
funny comedy song I was and I was like, all right,
let's just go ahead and skip me and go over
and I was just like, do you expect anyone to
play after that? No one likes and what's the juxta position?
But Chris and me, I'm the worst. I'm I'm just
there to make a different kind of entertainment, my friends.
Which song came back to you so different sonically than
(43:14):
you expected that we would know, like you write it,
you know, so just John Smith has cut the song
and it's really cool. John's a great artist. They're probably
gonna and you get it back and you're like, wow,
that is not my interpretation, but it's amazing. What is that?
You know? It's it's funny you mentioned that when when
the first time I heard Jessica Andrews version of of
(43:36):
Who I Am. It was so different, and I had
such demo love for Hillary Lindsay's demo that the first
time I heard it, I heard it on the radio
and I was like, I don't know, I don't know
if that's I don't know if they did that right.
Of course it's Byron Gallimore. He's a freaking genius, so
of course they did it right, you know. But the
first time I heard that song, I was I was
(43:57):
kind of like just disappointed or just confused. I was like,
I don't know if this is gonna work now, And
sure enough it did. Sure enough it did. Yeah. Uh
spoiler alert, that was very wrong about it. Yeah, yeah,
that did. Um. Okay, look let me promo the event again.
It's a nonprofit aerial recovery, which is a really that's great,
that's you know, there's so much there that these men
(44:19):
and women invest so much of their time in life
to have the skill set that it's like they come
out of the military and then what how do they
use it now? You know? And they also do a
lot of other things. They have they have a center. Um,
it's it's there. The two people that are ahead of
it one girl's named Brittany Murphy. She's from Nashville and
she's an amazingly successful real estate developer. So she also
(44:40):
has an island in the b v Iyes that has
turned into like a therapy center and they take you know,
the one. That's just one of the things they do
is do all these rescue missions. The other thing they
do is a lot of recovery for uh, you know,
guys who are getting out of the military not knowing
what to do next, or they're depressed or suicidal or whatever,
and they go down to this island and have counselors
and all of stuff and kind of you know, lots
(45:01):
of training for these guys. And it's just amazing what
they're doing. I'm I'm I'm all in on this one.
It's cool. November ten, six pm at the Bell Tower
in Nashville and there's a cocktail reception. This is heavy
or darks. I don't know the difference the trades, just
the Yeah, they got some put lead balls. Yeah, I think, uh, listen,
I hope people go check it out, But mostly I
hope people can appreciate just your story. I mean, it's
(45:25):
if this isn't the story of Hey, you never really know,
and you have the liberty to pivot and change and
figure it out. I don't know what is because I
mean that's what you did. We're all learning, still still
trying to pivot and change, you know, And I think
that's an ongoing, ongoing thing for all of us, isn't it.
At Brett James songs, well, I only change because people
tell me I suck a one thing. I don't never
change on purpose. I only change because it's like you
(45:46):
ain't good at this anymore, and I'm like God, usually
that I think the ticket from me has been finding
out that I suck at something soon enough, you know,
not wasting so much more time. I waste a lot
of time talking. I'll be honest with you. At Brett
James song, it's Brett. It's been a pleasure man, you Bobby.
I really appreciate the time, and congrats on everything. I mean,
your career is just insane. I want to flip the
switch sometime and do this interview with you. Do you
(46:08):
do you do a podcast? Do you have a podcast? Okay,
all right, well we're just gonna interview and at your
house with no microphone. That's it. I just really just
going to have a um Brett. Good to see you
and thank you for the time. And I hope this
event goes wonderfully. And I don't know. If I see
on the on the street, I'll block for you. If
I'm a car and I see you driving, I'm gonn
(46:28):
give a sidebody please, thank you. Yeah, I need it
all right, Thanks Matt, thank you
Host
Bobby Bones
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