# 371 - Caroline Jones on Becoming First Female Member of The Zac Brown Band + Her Solo Career and Touring with Tim and Faith, Jimmy Buffett, Kenny Chesney and Who Has the Best Food Backstage + Exploring New Zealand in a Campervan

Caroline Jones has recently joined the Zac Brown Band full-time as an official member, making her the only female in the 8-piece group. She talks to Bobby of what that entails and the conversation she had with Zac about also prioritizing her career as a solo artist. Caroline talks about some of the other amazing acts she has had the opportunity to open for and Bobby asks her the toughest question she’s ever been asked. Caroline talks about how her latest album Antipodes was inspired by an extended trip she took to New Zealand during lockdown. Caroline and Bobby also share their theories on traditionalists in country music and Caroline trusts to let her know if a song is good or not. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Episode three seventy one with Caroline Jones. Known about her
for a long time. She is the first female member
of the Zach Brown Band, so she's been a solo artist,
will remain a solo artist. But she's so proficient. And
she was opening for ZBB and they were like, hey,
won't you be a member? Zach was crazy, So I
want you to hear the story from her. Let me
she play so many instruments, she's basically a musical master.

(00:23):
And she lives in Nashville. Also in my car story
when she moved to New Zealand, that's pretty crazy for
quite a while during the pandemic, and she said they
didn't have pandemic there because they shut everything down so
they got to roam freely. It is a really good interview.
I really enjoyed the time and it all, and it
got to the point to where we started challenging each other,
which I enjoy the most. A lot of back and forth.

(00:43):
It's not favorite thing to do. When I don't know
that we weren't arguing, but it was just like, oh,
what about this point? Okay, I see your point. What
about That's my favorite kind of do. Honestly, it's so
enjoy follow her at Caroline Jones even if you want
to see what she looks like, because sometimes it's good
to have a face when you're listening to this. And
here we go. It is Caroline Jones, episode three seventy
one of the Bobby Cast. Right, we're here with Caroline Jones,

(01:07):
Caroline going to see again. Likewise, I think we saw
each other the opery recently, and it's one of those
weird things where you feel like you know somebody, but
maybe because you've only watched them on social media, I
guess I don't know you as well as I felt
like I did, because again, I think it's called like
a para social relationship, or you're watching somebody on social
media and you're like, oh, And then when we met,

(01:28):
I was like, I'm not sure if we've ever met
a person or not. Yeah, we hadn't, and I'm a
huge fan I've been for a long time, and the
same I feel like I know you, So I just
went up and introduced myself. That was a fun night.
I got to cover Copperhead Road at the Opera. Yeah yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah yeah. So I mean I just remember thinking
I can't believe I hadn't met her yet, because again,

(01:49):
I seeing so much of what you're doing or who
you're out with, or you're playing shows and stuff, so, um,
it was really cool to officially meet you. Um. And
then I'll just start with what was in my head
first when I heard you were coming to do this,
was that, So are you playing with Zach now? So
what what what's happening there? Okay, So I am now

(02:10):
an official member of the Zach Brown Band? So what
does that mean? Because I saw that too, What does
that mean? That means that I not only will tour
with them now, but I'll also make their records with
them and be involved in the studio process and any
and all things that they do. And that's very interesting
because you are such a strong artist yourself and you're

(02:32):
also going to play with Zach, Like, what does that
mean for your music world? Does that mean anything different?
Are you still going to be Caroline Jones front facing
artists that's writing songs and playing Are you really going
to be with Zach? No, I'll still be my own artist.
And actually, when I kind of had this official conversation

(02:53):
with Zach or this heart to heart if you will,
that was really my only hesitation because I love playing
with Zack Ground Band. It's an opportunity for me as
a musician that is like a once in a lifetime opportunity.
And um, I've never been a sideman before. It's great discipline,
it's great for my musicianship, it's great for me as

(03:14):
an artist, singer, songwriter, performer. But if anyone knows, like
the poll that you have towards the conviction of your
own dreams and your own artistry, it's Zach. You know.
He understands that he has been grinding away that since
he was a teenager. So that was really my only
stipulation is like, I just have to find a way
if I'm going to say yes full time and fully

(03:36):
commit because also they deserve that, because they're an incredible
group of musicians that are fully committed to Zack Broun Band.
And I said, I just have to find I have
to find the balance. Really, it's just time and scheduling. Um,
because I don't I feel that they're not mutually exclusive
in the least, like I feel that being Zack Brown
Band adds to my artistry, my musicianship and me being

(03:59):
a solo artist. The more tickets that I can pull,
the more that I can add to their band, hopefully,
and the better musician I am an artist I am,
the more I can add to their band, whether it's musically,
performance wise, songwriting, any of that. So for me, I
just feel like I hit the jackpie. What was the
response when you had that, A somewhat uncomfortable conversation of yeah,

(04:20):
this is awesome, but you know what does he say
to that? Well, Zack is a very straightforward person, very
honest person, and he really values that over anything like
he's a very loyal person. Um, So I think he
hopefully that's one of the reasons that I'm in the band.

(04:40):
You know, there's better musicians than me, better performers than me.
But just the combination of that and feeling like family
and someone that they can trust and that they trust
the intentions of is I think a big part of
it as well. Um And he just said that he
understands and that it's something that he knows it I'll
need to balance and that if in when I can't

(05:00):
do both, that everyone in the band will be really
happy for me and I. Again, it's like something that
you just can't you can't really script or try for
that kind of like genuine friendship. It's like really a
mutual um because he he really championed me as an

(05:21):
artist the first person. That's what my assumption was that
he saw you actually performing and you are a multi instrumentalist,
and you know, we'll get to all that, but that's
how he was exposed to you. Was so he was
the first person to ever take me under his wing.
I really owe the career that I have so far
to touring um. Zach was the first person to invite
me out on the road. I was supposed to open

(05:43):
two shows for him and ended up opening the whole
tour and opening for them on and off for three
years and just became a good friend of theirs, kind
of a part of their family musical family. And like
I said that, those are my first big tours, so
I felt like I had dined and gone to the
like and that opened the door for me to open

(06:04):
for Jimmy Buffett and Kenny Chesney and Faith Hill and
to mcgrawl and other tours that I was able to
get on because Zach had taken that chance on me.
But then the pandemic happened, and so when everyone started
announcing their tours again last year in twenty one. I
just kind of assumed I'll just do my own thing.
I was working on my second record and Zack just
called me out of the blue and said, can you

(06:26):
come out on the road with us and play some
guitar and play some banjo and play some B three?
And I was like, I don't play B three and
he's like, I don't Organs sorry, And I was like,
I don't play B three and he's like, but you
play keys, right, And I was like yeah, and he's like,
you'll play B three by August. So I had to
do like a B three crash course and Clay and

(06:48):
Coy who played B three and Zack Brown Band are
just amazing B three players. Um So that was extremely intimidating,
um as if all the other stuff wasn't. But I
was super surprised when asked me to come out and
tour with them. And so I came out and toured
with them last year, and I remember we got to
c m as and some stuff like that, and he
was kept asking me to come and like be in

(07:09):
their pictures and I was like what is because I
just thought I was kind of a sideman in the
group on the road, and he kept asking me two
different opportunities and like dream scenarios like playing on c
m as with them, and I just couldn't believe it.
And then, um, just recently we kind of made it
official and we'll come back to that because definitely to me,
not your identity. That was just the newest thing that

(07:30):
I guess I read about you in the last couple
of days and I was like, dang, I'll ask her
about that as soon as we get started. But I do.
I think my audience who listens to this, they're they're
really curious about how people got here, you know, and
not just you know, what's the last three songs you wrote,
but like where did you grow up? You know, what's
the what was the family dynamic like for you? And

(07:52):
when did you start playing music and who kind of
pushed you in to do music or encourage you to
do music. Well, I don't really come from a musical family.
Grew up just outside of New York City in the northeast,
so not listening to country music at all. My dad
is from Memphis, He's a country boy, but I didn't
grow up listening to any country uh. And I grew

(08:13):
up really just with a love for writing, for poetry.
That's how it started for me. And as soon as
I learned to read, I would just write all day.
I've always been kind of an introverted person, and when
I was about like nine or ten, I started singing
in school, and then I begged my parents for saying
lessons and realized that I could put all those poems

(08:33):
and stories to music and never wanted to do anything
else after that. Were you playing anything at nine or ten?
Did any piano lessons? I took piano lessons as a kid,
but I wasn't super intuent. Can you imagine like a
four year old on the gospel Oregan? Um? No? But
I actually I had started writing songs and I started

(08:54):
demmling them. I had a manager around like sixteen seventeen,
and he said, you know your music kind of your
songs are kind of country, like the sensibilities are kind
of country pop. And I was like what, I couldn't.
I just didn't. I hadn't grown up listening that. The
extent of country that I knew was like Shannai Twain um.
And he was like, yeah, you should really go down
to Nashville. So I went down to Nashville and I

(09:17):
went to a show with the Bluebird, and that was
it for me. So organically, your writing style was like poetry,
it was authentic. It was country music, I think. So,
I mean I had some sensibilities there. I wouldn't really
say that I was country, and definitely not consciously, but
I think that when I came down here and I
went to a show with the Bluebird, and I saw

(09:39):
because I loved like Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Americana now yeah,
and I didn't realize that there was a whole genre
of music that was built around authenticity, that was built
around storytelling, a musicianship. And when I saw the people
at the Bluebird, the songwriters, I think I saw Leslie
Satcher like tell a story about how she wrote a song,
and I was like, this whole town own is full

(10:00):
of people like that. And I just could not get enough.
And so when I went back home after that trip,
I started at the Carter family and went all the
way forward and just listened to every country artist and
UM started with old country, and like I said, went
all the way to present day. I just fell in
love with it. And it's cool it's a cool age

(10:22):
to fall in love with it, like eight, because you're
so you know, that's the music that really makes an
impression on you. Um. And I just became a student
of it and fell in love with it. And I
wouldn't say I'm traditional country by any stretch, but I
love country music, especially love old country music, and I
feel like that was the missing piece of my songwriting artistry.

(10:44):
Discovered that most really good country artists aren't traditional country
because traditional country is always evolving, and when there is
any sort of evolution, there's new people coming in or
new styles that actually supplement a genre absolutely well. And

(11:04):
in this day and age, you know, purism is kind
of a lost art form. And I think that's why
these past few years you've seen the rise of traditional
country more, which is such a cool resurgence. I love
seeing that. Um. But in this day and age, none
of us in this generation grew up listening to one
kind of music or one genre music. I mean, that's true,
that's download and streaming. It's napster, you know. I say

(11:25):
that too about even my career, where I was very
fortunate that when I was a teenager, napster existed and
popped up and when I was in college, and because
I had all those influences at that exact time of
my life and what I wanted to do. I was
young for my job, but I knew all these different

(11:46):
types of music. I was kind of the first generation
and you were one of your audience. Yeah it was.
It was one of the first generation that was influenced
by everything, but still knew who I was and said, hey,
I'm this, but I also have all all these outside
things that are affecting me at this point. That's okay
because music and media used to be regional. So where
you grew up, that's what you heard or you need
tapes and CDs, right, they sent it to the Walmart

(12:08):
or the music store. And in the southeast, you're exactly right.
They mostly got country right, and what was on your
radio station was what was popular in your area. And
same with news. I mean, even the information, the amount
of information that we consume now is so unnatural compared
to what you would have known about your town, your
community fifty years ago. It is, and that's a great point.

(12:30):
I love it, and I often I won't say argue,
but I often have healthy debates about a similar type
subject and even when it comes to country music and
at the evolution of it in general, where the first
time that Bob Wills had an electric steel in his band,
people started screaming that's not country or drums with at

(12:51):
the opera. I mean, you're you're looking at all, and
you see it happened so many times over and over again.
You would think that people would go, oh, we should
stop doing that, but they don't. But you know, I
have a theory about this because I feel like country now,
there's lots of traditionalists in every industry and everything we need,

(13:12):
but I feel like country has a lot to protect,
even more than say a genre like pop, where lots
of trends come and go. Like, I feel like the
country has a family feel and a legacy that is
the cornerstone of the genre. And so I feel like
that's why old habits can sometimes die harder in this
genre because I feel like there is a lot of

(13:34):
integrity and a lot of values to protect. And I
don't know if a lot of other music genres have that,
but definitely not ones as commercial as country. I can
agree with you in that you need traditionalists because if not,
you'll see, you know, you're you have two sides constantly pulling,
and if you don't have traditionalists, you don't have an identity.

(13:58):
It's completely lost. But if the traditionist traditionalists hold on
so tight and it doesn't at all advance or progress,
it dies one it's it's a creative Yeah, It's like,
that's what it is. It's so funny that I'm arguing
for tradition. Like if anyone who knows me would be

(14:19):
like Carolines arguing for the traditionalists right now, they would
laugh because I'm I'm very creatively free and I'm so
grateful to live in a time where artists like me
can exist more. And what's funny again, on the opposite
side of that, as I grew up so traditional with
absolute traditional country music values because my grandmother raised me
on absolute traditional country music and gospel. But the more

(14:40):
I've been around it outside the industry and inside, and
then you just look at it over time and you
see that every generation. And I've been lucky enough to
to talk with a lot of artists who have been
affected in a negative way at the time and told
you're not country and made to feel less than I
can go through. I can go through guard any of them. Yeah,
we can go through the even newer ones with like

(15:02):
an al Dean when he's first here, a Sam most
recently Dan and Shay. But then you can go to Garth,
you can go to all of the Whalen and all
those guys to Bob when they put an electric steel
and they're like, you're not a country. So imagine if
the traditionalists want all those imagine that we'd have no
steel guitar. No, elect're still guitar. You don't be able

(15:22):
to hear it for you have no drums. But see
great art winds and great art. Absolutely I agree with that.
I just think sometimes it takes a while. Sometimes it
shouldn't be like you're trying to escape prison to get
a chance. I also think great yes, And when you
say great art wins, I don't think great art succeeds

(15:44):
without it being good. Meaning I don't think you can
throw a bunch of synth and electronic and hip hop
on country music and just be like, well that's gonna
do good. No, it's gotta be good. Come from his genuine,
absolutely creative place, which is like what's happened in the
past ten fift years. I mean You can argue that
there's lower quality music made with that, but there's lower

(16:06):
quality music made with real instruments, So it's not about that.
There's amazing, creative, innovative music that has come out with
program drums and synthpads and snacked vocals, and it's just
par for the course when you look at where pop
music is. I would also say the same argument. I really,
I'm already really enjoying this conversation. This is like next, Well,

(16:28):
this is like the stuff I like talking about. I
could talk about this stuff all day. I would also
say that when with the advent of the electric guitar,
the same conversation was at just the advent of it,
where they're like, well, that's not the same. You can
hit one note and it holds. Well, this is not
the same. This is cheating. The same thing that's being
said about computers, the same thing that will be said
about it is so cyclical, and it repeats itself over

(16:51):
and over again. I guess sometimes I just go, how
are people not seeing that? It's the same argument over
and over and over and it's not wrong. It's the
I mean, it's right, but it's not wrong. Well, and
just because it's your taste or not your taste or
not what you grew up with or not conventional doesn't
mean it's wrong. And I think especially as I I'm
in my thirties now, and I feel like I'm vowing

(17:13):
to myself to just try to stay open minded the
older that I get because young people always get it
because they're living it. They're the ones innovating. And not
that I'm not young, but I think you being an
innovator in your field it allows you to see that
in another field and art in a way that a
lot of people who maybe don't allow themselves to think

(17:34):
innovatively or creatively can Yeah. I just want to be
allowed to be wrong, honestly, that's what it is, because
if we're allowed to try things and be wrong, it
makes the rights so much better, stronger, pure more. If
that's a hard lesson to learn sometimes, but it's so
especially in creativity, if you have the opportunity to stretch

(17:55):
yourself out and you're not going to die if you fail,
you try things, and with efforts and a new creative
comes really fantastic things, but also really big turds too, honestly,
and you need people around you who are creatively open
that way, because it's really hard if you have that
kind of spirit and that kind of mind, that kind

(18:17):
of heart, and everyone around you saying no, play, it's safe,
do this, this works, this, you know, this is commercial this,
And as an artist, that's a constant struggle that you
have to And then you find a tribe of people
who support you want to try things, but it's supposed
to be fun and creative and exciting. Yeah, I like that.
Do you have anyone because that the last five years

(18:38):
or so, I have really open to my I've been
secure enough in the last five years to open myself
up to go, hey, what am I doing? That sucks?
Not not to the world, because they'll tell me all
the time. Every day. I get that that's fed to
me with a spoon every five minutes, and you can't
discern what's true in that, and it is opinion. So
it's nothing is true, nothing is false. But it's mostly

(19:02):
from people who are going to spend their time doing that.
Those aren't necessarily people you want to give validity. So
let me ask you who tells you and who do
you believe when you're like, this is what I'm doing,
This is what this is my aim, this is what
it did? Where am I there? Who do you trust?
Because you can't have fifty people you trust? Who do
you trust? And are you good at listening to people's

(19:23):
idea and ideas? And that's different one. UM, I would
truly say, the first person I trust is myself. Like,
even if someone says it's really good, and I know
that I can do better, I know it's not. UM.
I really trust myself there creatively, and I trust myself
on what feels true and authentic. UM. But I can

(19:44):
also go down a real rabbit hole of being my
own echo chamber and being super self critical. So I trust,
I would say to people I trust um my manager
and business partner Rick wake Uh creatively. Yeah, And I
trust my husband my husband. I'm a newly wet I
got married, gosh, I guess almost a year ago now,

(20:08):
thank you so much, UM. And I had never thought
I would get married, and never thought I'd settle down
or any of those things. But I've come to trust
him creatively as much as I trust him in any
other area of life, because not only will he tell
me if he doesn't like something, like, he'll always tell
me the truth. I there's lots of people who will
tell me that their truth, their opinion. But he'll also

(20:29):
really push me outside of my comfort zone. And that's
something that I've with everyone else in my life. I've
always been able to guard around or like avoid um,
and he just knows all the back hallways of my
mind and will actually like go straight at it and say, no,
you need to push yourself here, or challenge yourself this way,

(20:50):
or get out of your comfort zone here, Like your
opinion isn't the be all and end all of everything,
Like maybe there's more to you that you don't know
about yet. And so I really appreciated that. And I
will listen to him in a way that I won't
listen to anyone else. That's great. I bet it's difficult.
I know it's difficult because I deal with that too.
And I can tell you I had a show on
Saturday night, and so I do this like hour long

(21:12):
show that I kind of wrote, and it's comedy, but
it's also inspiration. It's called commedically Inspirational, and I wrote it.
It's kind of a different type show. It's got I've
never seen a show like it, which meant it could
have been a disaster could have been amazing, and it
kind of started off slightly more on the disaster side,
but now we've pushing towards Yeah, it's now it's getting
pretty good. But um, I have a couple of jokes

(21:33):
that I do during the set because it's a mixture
of stand up and kind of motivational speaking. And my
wife's like, you shouldn't do this joke anymore and it
kills every time, and I was like, you know, but
everybody always laughed because you're just better than that joke now.
And I'm like, I like, yeah, but everybody laughed, like
that's a big, big laugh m And she's like, you're right,
it is a big laugh, shes But you could slip

(21:55):
on a banana pill out there too, and people would
laugh at that. And she's like, you're like, it's low fruit.
She means, that's exactly what she said. She's like, they laugh,
but you are far better than that. So I would say,
please don't and I'm like, I'm doing the joke. I
told us I'm doing the joke. I'm doing the joke,
you know what I'm talking about doing the joke. And
then I get out and now it's in the back
of your mind. Well, then I'm like, if I have once,
I have five minutes not being what I feel um

(22:19):
being defensive or threatened, which I'm not being threatened at all.
She's just we have this relationship where I asked her
to say stuff and then she says it, and I'm like, oh,
there are my feelings, and then I get over it
real quick and go, wow, that's great. She said that
to me. I didn't do the joke. So I remember,
I didn't do the joke, didn't say the joke, got
off stage, everything was good, and I said I didn't
do the joke, and she goes, I noticed a good job,
and I was like, thank she never does a good

(22:40):
job and so and she does. But you know, it's
kind of a similar thing where I trusted her to say,
you know what, I think you're a little better than that,
even though everybody else think that's pretty good, because I
think you're I think you're better than It's really nice
when someone challenges you and is honest with you. It
just I mean, even in business, in creative relationships, all
kinds of relationships, um, sometimes it's hard to be honest

(23:03):
with other people. But whenever anyone's honest with me, I
really appreciated it, and you appreciate it immediately, because sometimes
I get defensive because I feel like I'm being threatened
or they think I'm not worthy or less than, and
then I appreciate you well. I think that's part of
being an artist, is like you immediately take everything personally
like the worst. And also you just assume the worst,

(23:26):
you know, like if someone gives you constructive criticism, I
always like you almost take it, like you read too
far into it, like they're trying to say all these
bad things about you or how you have all these weeks,
like I'll go way down the route hole there. But
if I can get over that, like you said, and

(23:46):
if I can look past that um to the actual
suggesting that they're trying to give or the truth that
they're trying to tell, then you can take that. And
you don't have to take that as you know, holy grail.
But when you find people who really really get you
and are truly in your corner and get your mission
and then are giving you advice and telling you their opinion,

(24:07):
like my husband or Rick, that that's the best. I
don't think I'll ever mature to the point where I'm
just like, give me all the bad stuff. But I
do feel myself growing in that even though it hurts
the same I can also have a little conversation going,

(24:29):
you know, in like twenty minutes you're gonna really value Yes, yeah,
I have that. I just have to go away with
a little bruise ego then come back and talk about
it more. I guess it's it's easier to fight back
from the bruise because the bruisie goes a great thing.
You have a you have a bruisie go. It's easier
to fight back from the bruise if you know that,
and if you're smart, like I'm not in an arrogant way,
but I'm smart, and you're smart like you can you

(24:49):
can defend yourself really well, and you can justify yourself
really well and say why you're right. But in the end,
you don't grow that like that. And you know what,
usually even though presenter of the excellent argument, I'm not
right right, Like I'll present the argument that I'm right.
No walk away going day he was right, but I'm
walking away going god, yeah I'm so wrong. Yeah, Or
you're just feeling and secure, yeah, Yeah, that's that's Uh,

(25:11):
that's cool that you have that with your husband. It's
so cool. Is he creative? Does he have a job,
that's it all creative? No, he loves music. I mean
he's a huge music fan. He has a great ear,
and he always says it's great because he has no
idea what he's talking about. So he's like from a
lay person's perspective, which means he's also not jaded by exactly. Um,
he's a professional sailor, so he sails boats around the world,

(25:34):
which is really cool. That means he's probably cultured then
in an interesting way, very much. So he's lived literally
everywhere like Middle East, Australia, Africa, Asia. I want to
ask you a question about one of your songs. I listened.
We could do this for two hours, just talking about
theory of I'm down. Yeah, Like I feel like we

(25:55):
could just dial in, but I just have so many
questions that when I know you were coming that I
made note to ask first. This maybe a weird question you. Um,
I want to go Mike, play play come in. And
then I have a question about the clearing the throat clearing. Yeah, okay,
can you play that? Come in? That's all I need

(26:17):
for there, So one more time place coming. Okay, there's
always a conversation about this after it's recorded, because my
assumption just let me assume for a second and you
can correct me or not my correct My assumption is
you're just doing the thing where all right, and then
you start, well, now you have it on tape, and
do you hear it back and go, you know what?
Somebody to say, who goes that could be cool to

(26:38):
leave in or the whole time was up the plan
the ladder. That was actually with that particular song. Sometimes
you get cool accidentals that end up making it. But
with that song, I had actually written it like that,
Like I started like, and I don't know, it's a
very sassy song. Hello, hello, yeah, I kind of like,
excuse me, yeah, yeah, um, that's a very sassy song.

(27:01):
And I kind of wrote it as a joke, like
very tongue in cheek. It's a very old country lyrical
trope to like take a colloquialism like come in and
make yourself comfortable and flip it like that's the oldest
country lyric trick in the book. I love that, and
so um, when I knew I was writing a song
with that, I just I wanted to make it sassy,
So that's why I started with the throat clearing. It's

(27:23):
so funny now because in sound checks, if I ever
go like or whatever, like my whole band going come
in beause we're just so used to it. What do
you play if I were to put it in from
I'm not saying play at the level that you deem play,
because there's a difference, But what can I put in
front of you and you could play a couple of songs?

(27:43):
What instruments? Um, banjo, guitar, dough bro, harmonica and piano,
the harmonica? What point did you learn to play that?
I'd say. In my early twenties, I was doing solo
acoustic shows at high schools and colleges all over the Northeast,

(28:04):
and so I started picking up different instruments to try
to make my show more interesting, because nothing is more
humbling than playing in front of a bunch of like
six year olds and they're like nodding their nose and
like falling asleep. So I just tried to pick up
like I picked up the six string banjo first, and
I um got really into like old blues for a
while in my early twenties, and UM started playing in

(28:26):
the open tunings UM and realized that that's the same
way a banjo's tuned or a doll bro And then
so it just organically happened. But initially I started picking
up those instruments to try to make my solo show
more interesting. And then when I got really into production
and came here and did a session with mac mcinally
and some of the A list players here and saw

(28:46):
the level of musicianship that they have, and I just
got fascinated by knowing everything about production because I used
to hear records when I was a teenager and be like,
how the hell did they make it sound like that?
Like it just sounds huge? Like how do they make
a chorus explode like that? Like what instruments are in there?
It's like eating food and being like what ingredients make

(29:07):
it taste like this? And and so when I got
really into production and into the natural studio scene, that's
when I took improving my instrumental abilities more seriously, because
I wanted to know how the layers fit together and
how to produce. If America was going to say, Okay,
we're all getting together at seven o'clock all of America.
We're all get together a seven o'clock. We're gonna watch

(29:29):
Caroline playing instrument, and we're gonna critique her. What instrument
do we correct? Um, probably guitar or piano. Probably guitar.
Probably guitar. Yeah, because I tall that's what I spend
the most time on. Do you feel strongly that? Where
would you rate your guitar? Noists? Let's say I'm giving
your report card overall A through F. What what kind
of Are you an? Not a roll student? Are you
an A minus student A plus? Do you mean in

(29:50):
terms of my work ethic or in terms of my ability?
I have No, I'm not assigning it in any way.
I'm just saying we had not a person. Um, are
you in a No? I wouldn't say not in this town. No. No,
I wouldn't say I'm an a student. Um gosh. If
I'm comparing myself to my heroes, I'd say I'm a

(30:13):
solid C plus. So she's probably a B plus bordering
a minus because she's also smart enough to know that
you've got to play down just a little. Well, yeah,
you definitely don't want to, especially in this town. You
don't want to oversell yourself, that's for sure. I've seen
you play I think your holiday even even in this town.
I was just gonna see what you would say. That's

(30:33):
very nice. Um, there's so many incredible musicians in this town.
But other musicians and able say that about you too,
Like they say that you are a great player. Wow,
well that means a lot to me. And and being
in the background band to me, like that's such a
huge seal of validation musically, because I have nothing but
more to learn from each and every single one of

(30:55):
those guys. There not only amazing musicians, but they fit
so well together. They really know how to fit into
a mix. And actually I've learned so much just this
year just playing shows with them because I kind of
got thrown in, Like we never rehearsed or anything. They
were just like the first time I played like of
the set with them, they rehearsed a couple of songs

(31:18):
from their new album, but like of songs they play
on stage. The first time I ever played it with
them was in front of so what do they say,
just learn it and ride along? Yeah? Yeah, And and
they and I also have like a database of songs
that they might play because they change their set list
every night, so I kind of had to prioritize, like
They're like, we'll definitely play these songs and then we

(31:38):
might play these other thirty so I'd be like, okay, Well,
I remember the first night that they because I knew
it was coming at some point. They've covered about Heemian Rhapsody,
which is like not a chike. It's awesome, but it's
a freaking hard song to play and sing. There's lots
of not only tempo changes but key changes. And I

(31:58):
remember the first night and I was like you you
got this one? Like are you okay? And I was
like yes, but I um. I was like I knew
that day was coming at some point, but I kind
of learned it kind of because I knew that they
played that rarely. They used to play it a lot more,
but it was kind of out of the rotation. But yeah,
so a lot of that. The point that I was

(32:19):
trying to make is that just learning the last year
because there's eight people on stage, it's full, it's a
full band, like it's a full sound, it's a full mix,
so learning how to fit in, like what part do
I play that I can even be heard, you know,
or that adds a little bit to the song because
they don't really need much if anything. Um, they definitely
don't need me, so um that's been a great lesson

(32:42):
in production too, and an instrumentation. I was talking to
John Mayer once and he had just started playing with
The Grateful Dead, and he said it was the most
nervous he had been because one he had to go
and learn all these songs. So he took his guitar
and he went to Montana hold Up and just learned
all these songs. Him was nervous. His practice was nervous
as he played with him the first time because it

(33:04):
wasn't his different type of nerve by him screwing up
somebody else's baby instead of his own. Yeah. Well, and
especially because he's filling in for an iconic player with
a very iconic voice, like a very particular voice, and
and that fan base is is um, very very dedicated.
But I'm comparing this a little bit to you. You're

(33:25):
not filling in for an iconic player, but you are
with a band who I think is the greatest country
group of all time. And I also think that they
have fans in a similar fashion that are so dedicated
that if you weren't just up to the elite standard
that ZBB presents, they would let you know and it

(33:47):
probably wouldn't be fun. Yeah, gosh, that's terrible to think about. Well, I,
if anything, I'm just overly like I like to over prepare.
I like to um be really respectful and and um pressure.
Is there pressure that you don't normally have when you're
by yourself when you're playing with them? Is my point?

(34:08):
Did you feel a different kind of pressure now that
you are taking care of somebody else's kid not your own?
Definitely feel a different kind of pressure, But in some
ways I feel like I'm more suited to that. It
pushes me harder. I have to get out of my
comfort zone more as my own artist. Like one thing
I know how to do is if someone assigns me

(34:29):
something says learn this, be ready for this, Like I
can do that. I'm really really have a strong work
ethic that way. Um, In terms of the responsibility that
I feel to them and to their fans and to
the music, I don't know that. I don't want to
say it just comes naturally to me, Like I I
will work my butt off to make sure that I

(34:49):
do a good job for that, um like I would
for my own music, like I do for my own music. UM.
So the pressure there isn't as strong as if I'm
ever out front and set are with them, like where
they're really counting on me for a specific part or
specific performance or something like that. Then I definitely feel
more nervous, But mostly I would just feel lucky to

(35:09):
be on stage with them, like trying to fit in.
And it's really actually quite a creative endeavor because like
I'm trying to figure out how to fit into their
mix and what I add, like what I can bring
and contribute. You moved during the pandemic to the other country,
New Zealand. Ok yeah, okay it was New Zealand. I
knew was somewhere, but New Zealand had the crazy strict lot.

(35:31):
So why New Zealand And how did you get in
and give me that contact? Yeah? This is a great story. Actually,
So I met my husband during the pandemic. I was
always super career focused, liked percent music like I wasn't
that social, didn't have that many like relationships, never really
dated around and like I said, never thought I would
get married just into my career and I met my

(35:55):
husband at the beginning of the pandemic, and um, we'd
known each other about six weeks before. He's like, I
have to move to New Zealand for a year to
be in the America's Cup, which is kind of like
the super Bowl of sailing, and they get down there
a year before to train in the place, and um,

(36:15):
all my tours are being canceled. I was supposed to
tour that ear with various artists and it was all
canceled and I'm just sitting at home, and so I
ended up going with him. We were he went like
three or four months, and then I moved and met him.
I didn't know I was moving at the time. I
thought I was going to visit him, but then I
just never came home for like eight months. And it

(36:35):
was so cool, Bobby, because it was like having a
gap year when you're thirty, Like it was like being
suspended in time, Like we didn't have job. I mean,
he had a job. I was where I was over
in New Zealand like a tourist, like a kid, like
just having and so in love. I mean, I'm sure
you can relate, but when you meet your person. It's
the best feeling in the world. And um, and so

(36:57):
I went over there. I was able to get a
visa through his team like espousal visa U Yeah, for
his girlfriend of two months. And um, so I went
over to New Zealand, and as you said, they had
a really strict lockdown. I had to quarantine in a
hotel for two weeks. And that's when my family and
everyone was like, Okay, Caroline is in love, Like she's
sitting She's sitting in a hotel room in New Zealand

(37:20):
for two weeks for this guy. Um. And then but
once you got out, there was no COVID, there was
no masks, there was no lockdown, there was no cases.
If they had like two cases in the whole country,
they just shut the whole place down for like a week.
They shut the whole place down. Um. And you know,
you can argue now in retrospect that maybe that wasn't

(37:40):
that smart, but at the time it was amazing. It
was so cool. And New Zealand is Yeah, I've only
landed there to go to Australia, so I haven't actually
got to spend time. I mean, it's it's the most
beautiful place in the world where you guys like, yeah,
so once so Um, they actually got eliminated quite early.

(38:02):
He's gonna laugh at this conversation. But they got eliminated,
um from the America's Cup. And so we had two
months in New Zealand when now he didn't wasn't working.
So he got a camper and we went around North
Island and then we went around the South. Did he
have to stay, Um, No, but nobody wanted to go home.
Pandemic in America and completely understanding what're done, the same thing.

(38:23):
But if there was like a rule like he kicked
off survivor they don't let you go home yet some
people know, No, they got they had their visas through
April through the end of the cup. If they had one,
it was sad, but it was also good that they
lost because we got to explore and what he said,
it was good they lost, Umbre. That's a good question.

(38:44):
I don't know, because in some ways he would say
it was because we got to go He loves surfing
and he got to go surfing for two months. But
in other ways, obviously he wishes they didn't lose. Um.
It's a you know, it's an amazing race and amazing.
Sailing is a really cool, like small niche world that's
pretty intense, pretty cool. I'm gonna ask you a tough question,

(39:06):
probably the toughest question you've ever been asked. Oh good lord,
and I would like an answer, and not at one
big pivot because that happens occasionally, But of all the
tours you've been on, who has the best catering? That's right,
the food, the dinner? Okay, well I have to answer
Zack Brown Band, but that's also the truth. M let's

(39:26):
remove the band you're in now, like Kenny, Tim and
Faith uh Juice of the Eagles. Okay, can you believe
that Buffett who had the best when you went? You're like, wow,
come on this one. I'm talking about right here, all
this food, all the options. I would say Faith and Tim.
I only did a couple of shows with them, but

(39:48):
that was pretty amazing. Honestly, their whole setup was really
top notch, like it was beautiful. Um, but everyone has
I'm very grateful for everyone's options, but honestly, Zack Brown
Band has the best. Like they're known for their catering
even after now that they don't do their eating greats
anymore but they still have really good food. Yeah, part

(40:09):
of the brand. Yeah it is, Yeah, that's part of
the brand. We opened for Garth and he had like
eleven types of cake and I was like, this is it. Yeah,
they have They regularly have like three or four or
five dessert options on zackground. Nothing like when they have
that many types of cake, you know everything else is
gonna be Yeah. Exactly did you write your own valves?

(40:34):
I'm always curious about that as an artist and a writer.
Did you write your own vows when you getting ready? Yeah?
We wrote them the morning of we He did too,
he wrote, UM, we kind of eloped. I guess you
could call it. We had like a wedding window. We
never want to have a big wedding, um, and we
had what we called our wedding window. We're like, we know,
I have this time off. We know we're traveling and

(40:57):
we'll just feel the fields and get married when its right.
And um, because of the was it the delta I
can't remember the last variant, but last year, Um, we're
supposed to go out of the country and we ended
up not being able to because we had a New
Year's Eve show? Was that Brown band? I didn't want
to get stuck. Um. And so we ended up going

(41:18):
to Colorado, to our friend's house in Colorado, and we
got married like on the top of a cliff in
the snow. So cool. Very last minute, yeah, very last minute.
And but it was. It's so funny. People see the
pictures and it looks like it was like planned by
like a wedding. It looks so beautiful. Um. But we
planned it in like two or three days because we

(41:39):
just said, I if I already had a ring from engaged,
being engaged, and so I just said, if I get
him a ring and I got a dress and we
just travel with that, we can get married anywhere. Um.
And so yeah, the morning of he trecked. He and
a couple of our friends trecked all this stuff up
the mountain and um, we wrote our valves in the
morning and I was freezing. We had like a like

(42:03):
a stand up tent where because we had to um,
not snowshoe, it's called skin. We had to skin up
the mountain to get there. There's like no road. Um,
it's not like a long It was like fifteen minutes,
but in all our snow gear. And then I had
to change into my wedding dress in like this stand
up tent the talentan mountain, and then because we knew
once I put that on, like the clock was taking

(42:23):
because it was like twelve degrees and so I just
was so cold, just shivering and crying and shaking and
sobbing my way through my vows. But it was really beautiful.
It was really special, and it was just it was
me and him and three other people. And that really
does sound great. You're like, oh, it's called it sounds great,
it sounds like a Really it was beautiful. It was

(42:45):
so beautiful. I wouldn't have done it any other way.
And he's a real like he has a real heart
for adventure. So having it be very last minute and
we didn't it was very d I y, and so
it's very special to us. You do a show similar
to this where you talk about music and song writing,
who do you like? Who have you spoken with? And
you leave and you go, why, I really am not

(43:05):
that I didn't expect, you know, just not enjoying it,
but I like, wow, look at this, this is actually
a lot of fun. Like who was the most unexpected
positive I wouldn't say she was unexpected, but At the
time that I spoke to her an interviewed her, I
didn't know about her as much as I know now.
M Amanda Shires. She's so talented and she's a really

(43:27):
really deep, smart person. Um. I love talking to her.
But I love like I could talk about this stuff forever.
I love talking to artists and musicians and intellectuals about
this stuff. Um. I love podcasts, like long form podcast
I'm so glad that that's a that's a commercial art
form now because I just I can listen to those

(43:47):
all day. Yeah. Same, It's almost like I need it
in two ways, ten seconds for an hour and twenty minutes,
and I don't want anything anymore. Don't want a seven
minute thing. I need it quick like a TikTok or
I want a long form podcast that I can just
spend time and invest Isn't it fun? Like I'll go
for like a hike or something to just turn on
like a two or three hour podcast with someone that
I really respect or I'm interested in, and I'm just

(44:08):
on the edge of my seat the whole time. I
just so I love that stuff in the same way too.
You feel like you have a relationship with these people
because you spend so much time with them. I mentioned
social media, and what's that called that? Para social relationship.
The same thing with listening to a podcast, Like I
have a podcast that I listened to. I've never met people,
but I feel like I know them and they're my friends. Yes,
well that's how I feel about you. That's how I

(44:29):
feel about lots Zane Low or folks I listened to
I think are just amazing interviewers. And the same with artists,
Like when artists really open up their chest and are
human on these podcasts, it's so refreshing. Say the name
of your last record antipoties, See you're smart. Most people
try to say and they're like antipoets. I wasn't gonna try,

(44:52):
but I knew no one would say it right, and
I knew no one would know what it meant. I mean,
that was kind of part of the appeal for me.
Antipoity is is a term for basically New Zealand, Australia
for the opposite side of the world. My mom's Australian,
so I'm half Australian and um, obviously New Zealand is
really special to me and my husband, especially with that record.

(45:12):
I wrote and recorded a lot of it there. How
did you record it there? Did you do like a
little track situation or did you go into us? We
did both, UM, and we were zooming with my engineering
producer here. Um you can, yeah, I mean it's pretty
high tech, like the way that we ended up working

(45:33):
it out. UM. My engineer UM is kind of a ninja,
and he worked it so we had like zero latency.
He could hear everything latency from that far and play
PlayStations on Buddy down the Road. Well, we had to
use like three PlayStation We had to use like three
or four different Um. Obviously we were recording through proachels,
but we were recording there, so the approach like the

(45:55):
DW was there, and then through zoom you could talk
like in a HIM. But then we had this other
thing going called audio movers where you could listen in
real time with little to no latency. There were there
were there was a lot lay. Yeah, it sounds like
I'm trying to think of. You know, what would be
cool is if you because again, if you can record,
Let's say we'd record here and sometimes I do the

(46:15):
show from here and some of the other guys are
in their studio or I'm in another state, right, I
travel a lot the do the show at the radio show,
and you know, even though there's a little bit of latency,
but we can work from two different places and hear
each other. But it would be cool if musically there
was some sort of translator. And maybe there is where
you can play a note and it understands it and
it doesn't have to actually send the note again, send

(46:36):
the data from the note and the the tone through
you know, ones and nose to the other. And maybe
that's a thing where you can translate music from far away.
I'm not I'm not a tech head to the degree
that you're discussing now. I have endies and engineers who
are who could answer that question much better than I can.

(46:57):
I know you can't physically play with no latency with
someone else in another state or country yet, as far
as I know, And someone correct me if I'm wrong. Um,
but what you're talking about is basically like what Middy is.
You know, where you play a note and it recognizes
it um and interprets it in a computer. So I'm

(47:19):
sure that we're getting to where you're getting to the
place that you're talking about. I just don't think we're
there yet. Like, you definitely can't play with no latency
with someone else or sing with someone else with no
latency yet. That would be because though you're actually send yes, right,
you can't. But that would be because you're actually sending
that tone data translation that is almost instantaneous. That would

(47:42):
eliminate that. I have no idea to invent that, but
I we've got to be close to that. I don't either,
Like I'm trying to think if middy is the way
to do that, or if MIDDI creates latency. What if
we invented like the ultimate recording technique people all around
the world in real time right now? Well, I'm sure
some of your listeners can answer some of these questions
better than none of them. None of them can. There's

(48:05):
at least two people I know I'll call after this
and see what's possible. I do want to play a
couple of tracks here, and I know your record came
out last November. Yeah, yeah, so it's been a year
or so before I play a couple of tracks here. Um,
what are you doing new Caroline Jones music? Yeah, that's
that's what I was going to lead up to. What
what's the deal. Well, I've been writing a lot. We

(48:26):
have two songs done, and I've just been in the
last few months I got into another like super creative phase.
It's so funny how it comes and goes. Um. But
I've been really really inspired. I've been writing a lot
by myself. I've been co writing a lot in town
um and Yeah, I'm gonna hopefully finish out at least
an ap, hopefully a record um December January when we're

(48:50):
off the road, and definitely come out with a new
song by January February and new music by hopefully spring.
Let me play a couple of little Because of legal rules,
we only play five seconds. Now we get I know,
what would you do? Make a speed it way up
like a whole song track? Eight is what have you

(49:11):
wanted to play a little bit of this one? Look
at you and then give me number twelve. Everybody's rebble
till they fall in love. Okay, so I went super
Tom Petty. It does not to Tom Petty. It does

(49:32):
feel kind of like we play that again. The drums.
The drums sound very Tom Petty. Yeah, they you know
near Zy who played on it in Gus my engineer
they really nailed that, like seventies eighties breezy drums sound, Um,
everybody's reble till they fall in love? That's you. Yeah. Yeah,

(49:54):
did you write that with anyone else? So you write
that about you? In your perspective? And did you feel
like you were that rebel and you were never going
to fall in love? Yeah? I still feel like that sometimes.
I still can't believe I'm married. Um. Yeah, that song
is just poking fun at myself because, like I've told

(50:15):
you several times during this interview, I never thought I
would get married, never thought I would settle down. I
just thought it'd be a musical gypsy my whole life.
And I truly thought that my career and my job
and how dedicated and committed I am to it just
didn't allow for a partnership. And I'm so glad I
was wrong. I mean, I just had no idea what
a partnership could be. Um. But that song basically just
pokes fun at myself for all the things I said

(50:36):
I would never do that I came around. I relate
to that on so many levels. Same. Yeah, it was like,
you know what, because I didn't ge married tells forty
never had a really serious relationship, and I was like,
you know, I've had a sacrifice a lot, and I'm
cool with that. I'm just gonna keep sacrificing because I
want to be the greatest at what I do. And
I thought, I don't know if I have the capacity
for it because I'm so dedicated to this. And also,
I don't know if you felt like this, but I

(50:56):
was terrified that I would promise someone something more than I,
like in my heart, could really give. Like I really
thought that I had to give so much to my
music and my artistry that I would disappoint someone else
and and that they would have all these kind of
unmet needs and expectations. And I'm really scared of I

(51:16):
was scared of that. Um. But like I said, I
was just dead wrong. I just didn't know what partnership was.
You know, I've been pretty good about that part. I
thought the same thing. Pretty I just disappointed her in
other ways now that I never disappointer you know, so
many other ways. Who knew? Who knew? Okay, so the
rest of the year, are you out? Was that, yeah,

(51:37):
we're out. We're kind of wrapping up now, and I
have a few of my own shows left, um, and
I'm going out for a little bit with Home Free,
which will be fun. But yeah, it's kind of wrapping
up now. We've been touring since April, so it's been
a long tour. Retired or do you get home enough
to catch up in the middle more the ladder, Like
I get home a good amount, but I would say

(52:00):
their pockets where I get really Like the last ten days,
the what crushed us was a couple of privates that
we booked that like, I just kept having to fly
across the country that kind of crushed me. I mean
we were in um Arizona, Atlanta, Colorado, Seattle, Montana. Like
it was just crazy. So I would say this week

(52:22):
has been really tiring because then you come home and
all the rights and all the meetings and all the
good stuff here in Nashville that I want to do
that I've scheduled for the one week I'm home, then
you're like straight into it. Um. But as I tell
tell my manager, like I've only ever dreamed of being
this busy, So I feel really lucky. That's so funny

(52:42):
you say that. I talked about how lucky and to
be this tired all the time. It's like I've always
wanted to be this tired. Yeah, I just want to
make sure. I just want to make sure I'm able
that if a schedule like I always want to be
able to give my best. I don't want to ever
be at a place where I'm so strung out that
I feel like I can't give what I need to
give To hit the brakes. I had to hit the
brakes because of that same thing. I'm lucky I haven't

(53:02):
had to do that yet. But I'm sure you're way
busier than I am. You're way more talented than I am.
I mean, that's what it is. There's a difference here.
We actually have skills. You guys, follow Caroline at Caroline Jones. UM,
I encourage you to go check out a record which
I wouldn't say because I knew I wouldn't say it
right and I want to cool enough antivities I hear you.

(53:25):
I'm still not gonna walk down it, but it's spelled
antipodes in case you guys, and we'll put it up
in the notes here for this. UM, I really like
to sell Matt from Old Dominion. Thank you so much.
That's a really special that's my nixt story so many. Yeah,
so I hope you guys are going to check check
it out. And you know, back in the old days,

(53:46):
three months ago, we could play a lot more music
on this can we might until the music cops came
and said, really, what was the process for that? Well,
it's been a slow like illegal. So it's been a
slow change over the last two or three years because,
as you know, the digital spaces a while west until
it's not and all the laws, the sheriff's come into
town and all these areas of in the digital world,

(54:08):
and so you can't put on demand music in a
place like if I wanted to listen to your music,
I have to go somewhere I have to subscribe to
it being on demand. But if I put it on
this where you get it for free and you just
skip for it and you can cut it out. So
mostly it's that you can't put things up that people
have to pay for. But is that the idea because
this podcast is monetized or is it because like on

(54:29):
social media, that's all it is. It's just they they
pay music royalty rights for those songs. And the difference
for this used to be that we could say we
were what was the teritorial editorial because we're news and
that doesn't even work anymore. Got it. Well, that's actually

(54:50):
my biggest I don't want to say fear, but my
biggest concern about the future of country music and for
this town is like how the Hecker songwriters gonna get
paid in five ten years, like and because as other
types of media take precedence over radio or are as
influential as radio, because that's how songwriters make money. And

(55:12):
even now it's like so competitive to get a single
for a songwriter. Um, I just wonder, like songwriters are
the entire backbone of this whole industry that is country music,
and I just wonder. I just I know there's people
out in the front lines trying to make it happen.
But like the fact that songwriters don't get paid properly
for streaming and like is mind blowing to me. That's

(55:35):
a big one. I have friends that go and testify
and they go to d C, and I mean, it's
going to happen. It's just you think you think it
already would have m right. I think it has to
happen because honestly, how to all these there's thousands, there's
one thing. There's hundreds of artists whatever, maybe thousands, but
there's thousands of songwriters here that all have publishing deals

(55:56):
and all rely on this industry to make a living,
to like put food on the table and are the
backbone of this industry. And yeah, that might downsize a
little like labels have or other things have, but they're
not really going anywhere. You know, people are always going
to write songs here. And I think, yeah, I think
they're going to have to monetize streaming. I don't see

(56:18):
what argument they even have to not. I think pay songwriters,
that the payment comes if the lobbyists are getting paid
enough to do the lobbying. You know, I don't think
there's ever anybody in Congress it goes Let's just do
it because it's right. That's not, that's not that's not

(56:40):
how really it works. And it's just so it seems
like such an I mean, this is like a bigger
political philosophical conversation, but like it just seems like such
an easy win for a politician to be like this
is right, and it's no skin off my teeth, by
the way, Like what is it do for me either way?
You know, yes, I'm on your team completely. But then

(57:00):
I also understand where there's a lot of money and
I won't even mention any streaming services because it's all
the same where they're like, wait, we don't want to
pay any more money than we have to write. And
if they can fund wonderful lobbyists or wonderful folks to
actually fight the other, that's all it, it's all, it's
it's all bottom lines. I think I'm just too and

(57:24):
to listen that way, like, I can't imagine profiting us
something that I know other people who are creating it
aren't getting paid, Like, I just can't. It's not in me,
And I agree with you. It's just how do we
find the way because I've been asked to speak on
some of these things too, how do we find the
way to incentivize them to change it, not because of
what the right thing to do is, but how it's
going to benefit them? Right, the people making the laws

(57:46):
need to know that they're benefiting in some way. That's it.
That's it people getting elected or just getting elected because
they're only running too, and they're only running, they're only
staying in office to get elected again. So it's how
do we incentivize them to make it probor and right now,
and also incentivizes streaming services to understand that if there's

(58:06):
no songwriters, there's no songs, you know. I mean, I
know that they feel like they have a hold over everything.
But actually this brings me to one more question. And
I know we're probably out of time, but um, do
you are you still interested in getting into politics because
that it's samps to wade into. But we need more
people who are good, honest people, but it seems like

(58:28):
it corrupts so many people. Yes, it's you need people
that are good, honest people that don't need the political
system to want to be in politics, which is it's rare. Yeah,
and so and it is so gross right now that
I really felt like I had a chance to do
it this coming up November when the election was last year.

(58:50):
But it's it's so disgusting and I don't claim to
you mean, like just by like dipping your toe in
the water, you kind of saw things that you really awful.
And it's all just money too, It's always it's just
raising well that's what's so tough, all of it. And
then once you get enough money, it is it's vile.
So um, you're right because by definition, even to get

(59:11):
to a place where someone where you're on a ballot,
like you have to raise and spend and kiss, but
to get so much money and even that is corrupt,
that's all it is. And then all the people you
got money from, okay, well they expect something because they're
not just giving you money to to go be a
good guy. Some might. So you need someone that doesn't

(59:32):
need to run for office, to actually run for office,
and who wants to run for office but they don't
need to run exactly. It's like Bloomberg, like he he
was a really smart guy, like he's pretty centrist, like
great head on his shoulders, and he just couldn't get
and he just wasn't polarizing enough, like he wasn't extreme
enough for everyone. It's and that's also how you cut through, right.

(59:53):
It's like if you want to be on c An Inner,
Fox News or pick any they don't care about moderates
because moderates don't get clicks. And these are actual news organizations.
But when I say actual news organizations, they have to
make money. They have to profit off of ads, and
how do you and they're competing with social media, and
to make money off ads is by getting a number,

(01:00:14):
by getting a rating point. And how do you get
ready point? You put on polarizing figures. And when when
we have these conversations, I just feel like sometimes I
just feel like, oh my god, we're screwed, Like our
culture is so screwed up. Because it is, it's so
messed up, and everybody knows it, but it's it's very
entrenched in a lot of systems. It's oh yeah, you

(01:00:34):
know everywhere. Um My only hope is that as I
and it is funny how we'll go back to this
and will end on this, is that as I talked
about the cyclical nature of country music and people going,
well that it's not country, that's not country. That happens
over and over again. The same thing happens in politics.
I mean, you can look at you a norm war.
You could look at where there were times like now
where people are like, this is the worst ever been

(01:00:54):
and it s proably the end of it is the
end of the world. And it's been so many times.
You could go through there four or five things in
America has been around that long. It seems like to
us it has been. But no it hasn't not compared
to others. We'll call them civilizations, um empires. However you
want to define the link that we've been here seven
you know, not very long, a couple years. We've had

(01:01:17):
four or five of these that come back around. But
we're like, this is it, this is the end um.
You can go the wars, you can go Vietnam, you
can go with all of this. But what happens is
every so often, somebody or something a very for the
use of this conversation, a centric force seems to rise.

(01:01:41):
It could be something positive or negative and brings people together.
Negative will nine eleven. We were all on the same
team for a little bit positive the Rock. But I'm
just saying it could be it's that it's going to
take something unexpected. It's gonna be some someone that is
kind of unsuspecting that's going to happen to them, and
they've got a responsibility or something, and that's a metiaor

(01:02:04):
coming down falling at Earth. I do feel like this
young generation is more aware in some way. I agree
environment and you're right about the cyclical nature. Like my dad,
that's what he basically does for a living, is like
look at big systems and long arcs of things, and
and he always says that he always gives me the
forty ft few because it's true. Things just come and

(01:02:26):
go and come around again. And human nature and country music. Yeah,
nature and country Caroline. I've enjoyed this, Thank you very much,
Thank you so much. I could have done another hour
me too. I would love to at Caroline Jones. You
guys follow her on Instagram and TikTok and see her
out with ZBB. But really, when you get we get
your new music, let us know, well, do you get it.

(01:02:48):
I can't wait to hear it. And it's been a
real treat to spend this time with you. Thank you
so much. You guys, go follow Caroline at Caroline Jones