In Case You Missed It: #71 - Tom Douglas - Wrote "The House That Built Me" for Miranda Lambert and how it took Years To Write

Songwriter Tom Douglas stops by this week. He tells the story behind writing "The House That Built Me", multiple songs for Tim McGraw and his theories on how to approach writing a song.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's Bobby Bones. I wanted to share an episode
of the Bobby Cast that you may have missed. Back
in seventeen, songwriter Tom Douglas stopped by my house. Tom
wrote The House That Built Me, which by the way,
was the a c M winner for song in the decade,
and he came in and told me the story behind
that song. It's an amazing story about how it took
years to write that song and then finally found its

(00:20):
way to Miranda Lambert. He also talks about writing and
raised him up for Keith Urban and Eric Church and
I Run to You by Lady and Abelleum and a
whole lot more fascinating. Guy. I love this time I
spent with him, so I wanted to share this episode
with you. This is episode seventy one of the Bobby
Cast with Tom Douglas. And if you don't mind, tell
your friends about this podcast or this episode specifically, if
you enjoy it alright, Episode seventy one of the Bobby

(00:44):
Cast with the writer Tom Douglas. Tom, it's good to
see him in. So many people say so many great
things about you. It's finally nice to get you in here.
How long have you you been in Nashville. Well, I came,
uh the first time from nine to eighty four, and
then I left in eighty four never to return, and

(01:07):
moved back in ninete. So now I've been that much
of a gap. Huh. They're just give or take thirteen years.
But yeah, now I've been back twenty years. So it's
a uh it is. You know, for some people it
seems very direct, but for me, it was a very
circuitous route. So one of the things I like to

(01:27):
do is kind of let people know what they're what
they're getting here. I'm gonna play a few of your
songs and then we'll just kind of start back over.
So you wrote the House that Built Me, which is
just a game changer for anybody, And we'll come back
around to that one in a second. So the House
that Built Me Southern Voice, Tim, I run to you

(01:53):
from Lady A. I mean, I have a lot of them.
I'm just getting people a taste here. They know the
greatness that they're hearing. Raise them up, sailing. It's just
to Eska class of you in naking it too, some

(02:18):
good stuff and I'm gonna hit him with some some
other stuff in a minute. Anyway, So you come here
in nineteen to do what. Well, you know, I grew
so I grew up in Atlanta. Um, I grew up
in a household where uh, education and job security were
really there were a too pre eminent uh you know

(02:42):
parts of my life and my childhood. My that's kind
of what what was preached to me by my parents.
My father was very musical and love music, and really
he loved songs. I mean, kind of looking back, I
have some perspective, So music was a big part of
our household. But um, you know, I mean my mom worked,

(03:02):
my dad worked. I mean, they really did a lot
to try to get me educated. So it sounds like
they wouldn't want you to have a creative job where
there's not a lot of security. No, it would be
I mean for me, I've told my parents that I
was gonna like so I go to college and graduate school.
And I really did try to assimilate into the real world,

(03:23):
and I did for a while until I was twenty seven.
Then I just thought, you know, the call of Nashville
was so strong that I just I didn't really have
a great plan, but I talked a publisher in Atlanta
into letting me pitches songs in Nashville. It was Bill Lowry,
who was a kind of revered publisher in Atlanta. And

(03:43):
I came up here and you know, I just got
enough money to pitch songs and I started meeting people.
I just I just wanted to be in Nashville. It
was you know, it's the it's the it's almost like
the siren you know in the in Mythology where she's
hauling you, beckoning you. Why do you think that? Why
did you want to come to Nashville so that well,

(04:05):
I just I think it represented songs. It just uh,
were you writing the whole time you're working? No, Well,
I mean, you know, I've written since I was twelve,
so I've always you know, had a poetic band. I've
always loved stories. I've always loved songs. I never aspired
to be an artist, but I just, you know, I
just always wrote. It was just it was the way
that I looked at life, and uh, you know, uh,

(04:29):
it's it was just kind of the filter through which,
you know, I saw everything through songs and through stories.
So it was very just second nature to me. I
didn't realize that it was kind of unique. I thought
everybody looked at life like that. But um, you know,
I just was, like, you know, I was twenty seven.
I didn't really I just I just had to do it.

(04:51):
It was just kind of an unexplainable desire to to
be here, just to just to get here. So, you know,
I just kind of loaded up and I just came,
got an apartment and just that I just I just
wanted to soak up the sights and the sounds and
the people and what's it. What's what's Nashville in nineteen
eighty and who was here? Like, who were the big names?

(05:14):
Was Nashville? Like when you moved, Well, it was gosh,
I hadn't really thought that much about that in a
long time. It was like what was happening? Well, okay.
So the reason why I'm a little disconnected from that
is because, strangely enough, I did not grow up listening
to country music. So I grew up listening to you know,

(05:35):
the I mean, I think everybody thinks they grew up
in the Golden Era of music, but I grew up
with like literally in August of nineteen sixty four, the
first concert I went to was Atlanta Fulton County Stadium.
I saw the Beatles, Braves to play. So um. Then
I grew up with you know, the Beatles, and you

(05:57):
know and Elton John and Springsteen and Jackson Brown. I
mean that was really I grew up loving the songs
of Jimmy Webb and Chris Christofferson and Hank Williams. But
I didn't I didn't listen to country music. So I
came up here and I still, you know, it was
like a fish out of water. I didn't really know
what was going on in music row um, and looking back,

(06:18):
I don't know, I'd have to think about what was
going on. I wonder what kind of piqued my curiosity.
You saw the Beatles in a in a stadium? How
does that sound? Because the technology of one playing a
baseball stadium is not that good anyway, even today it's
it's not the greatest environment for music, and they do.

(06:38):
But then could you hear them over the screen? I mean, um,
I I still it's indelibly etched in my mind, maybe
a quarter mile. Like I got on a bus, a
yellow school bus with twenty other kids my age, and
a couple of mothers and a couple of teachers, and

(07:00):
we just went to see the Beatles. I mean it was.
I mean it was like, I mean, so this is like,
you know, this is Elvis, you know, creates a revolution
in nineteen fifty four, so this is like only ten
years later. And I mean literally, girls screaming, or was
a quarter mile before you got to the stadium. You
could hear the screen, You could hear the screams, and

(07:23):
it was I mean from the moment they started until
you know, until we got a quarter mile away. The
girls screamed and literally they had like four vox amps
and they were singing over the p a of the
of the Brave Stadium. That has to sound terrible now
again to today's standards, But do you remember hearing and

(07:46):
knowing the songs was the screen? It was, it was.
It was a transcendent experience. It was. It was just
it was just something that, um, I'll never forget. It was.
I mean, it was truly it was. It was miss
serious and magical and uh, I mean it was I
don't know, it's it's sounded amazing, you know, even though
you couldn't hear them, it was almost like they were miming.

(08:09):
But you you know, it's funny sometimes you can hear
the songs in your head, which is almost as good
as you know, somebody singing if you know the songs
that well. So, so you were about how old I was?
I think? I mean, so I was born in nineteen
fifty three, so I was eleven. Well, as an eleven
year old, your folks are cool with you going to
watch the PA I can't imagine that. I don't. I

(08:32):
have no idea how my parents let me do it.
I mean it was it was, it was be it was,
but you know, it's a different time. It was pretty
innocent and uh and as I say, you know, my
father loved it. I mean he kind of lived vicariously
through me. I think. So, I mean they were like,
didn't seem like that big of a deal. But now
looking back, like what I let my eleven year old

(08:54):
children go to bridge Stone and see Justin Bieber? Justin Bieber?
I mean I'd have to go with him, you know,
or my wife would. But anyway, yeah, so I mean
that was kind of my That was my start. And uh,
you know, and then I get to National nineteen eighty
from eighty four and I really I just kind of
wander around. I just meet people. I pitched songs. I'm

(09:17):
learning how to write songs. And you know, I uh,
I a tour managed a band that went to Europe,
and you went to Europe. Oh yeah, I mean I
was the worst tour manager in the history of concert
promotion in nineteen eight Sorry sorry, yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
Right in the early eighties, you flew on a airplane

(09:38):
across the ocean? Did that not scare the crap out
of you? But you could still smoke cigarettes? How about that?
So I would sit on the back of a plane
there was a curtain separating first class from economy, and
you know, people are just smoking cigarettes on a plane.
How crazy is that? I guess not that crazy because
it was always allowed and understood the way it was.
I get scared flying over water right now. But technology

(10:00):
I cannot I can't imagine. So you're going, you're you're
doing anything to eat. It sounds like you're just trying
to Eateah. So I'm just getting by. I'm giving blood
at a blood bank. Um, you know, you're just doing
whatever you're doing. But you know, it's thrilling and exciting
and uh but at the end of the time, so
you know, So now it's nineteen four and I'm thirty one.

(10:23):
So I've got all this education, all my friends are yeah,
you know, I've gotten married, They've got their first job
and their second promotion, and you know, and I just
feel like, goh, the now, I've wasted ten years of
my life. It was it was very depressing. Do you
have any songs at this point that I had done
anything at all? Um? And I mean it was really

(10:47):
it was. You know, I mean Nashville is hard today,
but you know, when you don't have anything going on
that look from the outside looking in, Nashville is a
very lonely place. So you know, at that time, I've
just said, I gotta I gotta do something else. So
I had met my wife to be, we got engaged,

(11:07):
and I moved to Texas and tried to put all
this behind me and I got in the real estate business.
You were never coming back. I was just that was
what broke you though? What was the final straw? Well,
I mean, honestly, I mean there you know, there's always
you know, parallel things going on in your life. My

(11:29):
father had gotten ill, and so I brought my father
up from Atlanta to live with me. And really the
combination of my father being ill caring for him, you know,
nothing going on in music, making no money. I was
thirty one, and you know, I've always I've always had
this vision of like a scoreboard clock, and I always

(11:53):
see this occasionally, you know, I'll see the scoreboard clock
and the numbers are just winding down and always feels
like I'm running out of time. And so it's like
the score bird clock. It doesn't always it's not always
as big as it is, but at that time, I
remember the thinking, man, I am, I've wasted time, and
now I'm running out of time. I've got my father.

(12:15):
So the truth is, I mean, the combination of you know,
the demoralization of being in Nashville and caring for my father,
I just said, I gotta do something different. So my
I went to Texas and moved in with my sister
and brother in law, who graciously allowed my father not
to move in with him. I was like, I gotta

(12:35):
start all over again. When that was and so well,
I got a commercial real estate so and as poorly
as I've done in music, I really the real estate
commercial real estate world was terrible. Because you're too young
to remember this, but interest rates went up to like
twenty one interest rates today or four and a half percent,

(12:58):
and there was a savings in lone cry Isis and
so everything really just stopped. So I was kind of
just spinning my wheels again being in Texas, UM. But
you know, I was getting married and you know, starting
to have children. I mean, you know, I was. I
was doing fine. It wasn't like I was, you know,

(13:19):
in some cataconic, catatonic depression, but I was just I
was just starting over now. I really, honestly, I really did.
I tried to put the whole music thing behind me.
I didn't really talk to people about it, and I
didn't write for uh, you know, a couple of years.

(13:39):
And then I mean, and the truth is, so this
is now probably nineteen ninety, and I was cold calling
a shopping center, and I was saying, I'm Tom Douglas
with Cornerstone real Estate, at least the shopping center down
the road. If you got any real estate needs, I'd
be delighted to help you. At the same time, I

(14:00):
was literally having this conversation with God and I was saying,
it just seems strange that now, UM, thirty eight or
thirty nine, and the passion for music was still there.
It was underlying, you know, the soundtrack was playing in
my mind. I thought it seems strange that I would
be cynical and jaded at thirty nine and cold calling

(14:24):
a shopping center in August and Texas, and and really,
and I had an epiphany and it was like, God, so, well,
you've worshiped the creation, which is the song, instead of me.
How's that working out? It was, I mean, it was startling.
I was like, well, you're right, I've taken this thing,
which is in and of itself is good. I've kind
of made it an idol. I really had to destroy

(14:46):
the idol of songs. So it's like about a wag
Walker for one second. One of the great things about
doing this podcast is I could do it from home
and my dog is here at the house, which is
different than the radio show. My dog doesn't get to
come to the radio show. But I do love my dog,
and if you listen to me at all, you know
he's fourteen years old. I mean, he's been with me
through forever, so I do like to make sure he's

(15:07):
taken care of and for me, wag is awesome. Wags
an on demand app for getting an a dog walker
it's basically like Uber for dog walkers, the thoroughly vetted
walkers like I wouldn't trust someone with my dog if
I didn't trust them, you know what I mean, quality people,
experienced dogs. I can tell you my experience has been
fantastic with it. Like I mean, that's what I can

(15:28):
tell you. Live GPS tracks your dogs, walk notification when
your dog using the bathroom with your finel barkets you.
If you wanted to, you get a report card after it.
So Wag that's what you wanted to search Wag. The
best part you don't have to be home Wag since
you have a a free log box, you can leave alternate
home instructions of the app, and so it's right there
for you. So it's an on demand app. And again,

(15:49):
if you love your dog, you can be home and
they come, or you cannot be home. Wagons and must
have if you're a dog owner, you can get your
first WAG for free. To just take theWord take the
sword bones to to five three to four. Text the
word bones to two five three g four and you
get your first WAG. But just I searched wag wag
walker and bam, there you go. You got it. Okay,
so you come back and what year did you come

(16:10):
back to Nashville. I moved here in nine back in
n so so but you know, so but so, I
don't know if if you want to go chronologically, but
but so what happened was I kind of slowly regained
my love for music and started writing songs again and

(16:32):
feeling like I was always starting over. That's when I
went to SMU early one Saturday morning and probably and
you know, I started writing the song Little Rock, which
really was just autobiographical. I's just Colin Ray Colin. I
played a little bit of this I love this is
Apple Markets. We played this, yea, I got you this

(17:03):
one small problem here, so you're right this when you're
still living in Texas. And then I go to odd
joint songwriter associations everywhere I went. I went to Austin
in the summer of ninety three, reconnected with Paul Whorley,

(17:26):
whom I had known as a guitar player when I
lived in in Nashville, you know, nine years earlier, and
UM gave him a cassette the cocktail party, expecting him
never to listen to it. In about two weeks ago,
by any calls him one days says, I've been listened
to a couple of these songs. I think I like him.
Want you let me run with it and see if

(17:46):
I can get anything going. And so Paul signed me
to Sony Publishing and the first song I got recorded
was Little Rock. The first song recorded at years old
is this monster right here? Everybody knows the song. I
saw Adam Craig when he was on your show. Yeah,

(18:08):
I think you just asked him and I was like,
I was like, can you play call? Because he Adam
Craig has that Colin Ray to text your his voice.
I mean this song I hear it reminds in my childhood,
like that's how strong this song is. And in fact
that you wrote it handed off, I never thought you
get a call? When did it go? Hey? And how
far along was calling? In his career, Colin he had

(18:30):
had he'd had loved me and he had and he'd
had uh is it in this life? He'd had it,
He'd had a couple of hits. I mean he was
everybody loved his voice and Paul was producing him. And yeah,
I mean it was you know, so I mean after
you know, I mean Paul basically signed me. He just
based on that song, and uh, you know, miraculously Colin

(18:54):
Ray recorded it. So does that song end up being?
Is that what makes you move to Nashville? Well, but
then you know, I had such a mistrust for Nashville,
which is I think healthy that I commuted up here
one week a month for four years and then move
my family back in nine For four years, you commuted
back and forth to Nashville. I still stay in the

(19:16):
real estate business. I was sure it wasn't gonna work.
I just thought this was a one off. And uh uh,
I'm still not sure it's gonna work. But what a
one off? Like that's a monster? Okay, so you move
back thinking I can make a good running this again.
What makes you think, okay, I have to move back now? Well,

(19:37):
you know, it's forty five and I've been up here enough.
I've made a few relationships. Sony is the only publisher
I've ever had, and so they they made it possible.
I mean, so now I'm forty five, I have three children,
and uh, you know, kind of my second renewal was
coming up with something and they said, you know, we

(19:58):
really think you could do us, but it would be
better for you and for us if you were here,
and so they made it possible, and I was. My
father had had had just passed away, and it was
almost like I had a clean break just to started
start out all over again. So you moved to Nashville.
What's your first taste of success as a Nashville song right? Well?

(20:22):
And then Colin Ray recorded a song called Love Remains,
and uh, you know, and the gift. I mean, it
was still slow going because everything I've ever done has
been it's just it's it's it's it's really left of center.
I've never really been able to go right down the
middle of the fairway. I'm either on the far left

(20:43):
or the far right. But it seems like so far
at least with the Calling Ray stuff, And we'll get
to the rest of it. You actually make the fairway,
like what you do. When it becomes successful, it ships
everything else to it. Well sometimes, you know, I mean,
I've I've had to the hardest over all the years,
you know. I mean, now I've written like songs in

(21:04):
twenty four years, But the hardest thing is just convincing
myself to still do what I do. I still have
such a tendency to follow trends or try to be
something that I'm not, and I I really have tried.
But it's almost like, you know, a piano vocal with
a cello is like that. Really, that's that's almost all

(21:26):
I can do every song. It's kind of that. Tell
me about this one here, pretty pretty familiar voice. Yeah,
well that that was again, you know. I mean, I
wouldn't have a career without Paul Worley, So that was

(21:47):
again Paul. And I mean I've uh so, I do
love Springsteen. I love you too. I love Dylan and
the you know the device that they use a a
lot of songs or you know, the verses or vignettes,
three completely unrelated vignettes and it's tied together by like

(22:07):
a two line chorus. I mean, like grown men don't Cry.
Is I don't know why they say grown men don't cry.
I don't know why they say grownman don't cry. Loves
the only house big enough for all the pain of
the world, Loves the only House. I mean, it's like,
I love songs like that. That's that's kind of in
my my d n A because I've listened to so
many songs like that, so I but I start all

(22:28):
these songs on piano and then I have to find
somebody somehow to you know, to translate it, to make
it you know, you know, make it sound like a record. Um.
So that happens in the studio sometimes. But I mean
even the house that built me, as the demo was

(22:49):
a piano vocal, which I have here in the demo,
the sproke nest side and my son down here. It's
like I'm someone else, but don't it Maybe I can

(23:10):
find myself who's singing that's me? That's like, just come in,
what are you talking about? You're not a vocalist. That's
like some Bruce Springsteen meets Tom Wade kinda from the
House built me, my mom. I buy that version. The Uh. Well,

(23:36):
so all I can do is like if I do that,
and then I have to the success I've had. I mean,
now I've co written most of these songs, as you know,
like that was with the great Alan Chamblin. Uh, the
I have to I mean, if it's if it's if
it's what I do, which is the piano vocal, I

(23:59):
have to then find an artist that can take that
original but then translate it to you know, to what
they do and that that doesn't often happen. So when
you make this demo and you do you shop it
or does someone go this is perfect? Well we you know,
we were Allen and I worked on that for seven years.

(24:21):
Uh you know, we started it, uh and then we
demoed it, turned it into the publisher and they were like, yeah,
that's cool. Which you know, it's like codes biag for
this will never see the light of a day and
where it's maddening. You know, you think everybody's a raging
idiot and only the look in the mirror and realize

(24:43):
that you're the raging idiot. So yeah, um, but we
worked on it, we redemoed it, you know, and we
just kept We knew that there was something there. And
the truth is we had too much detail. And at
the very end, so you know, seven years later from
when we started, we just laid the lyrics down on

(25:04):
the coffee table and said, what is wrong. There's something
that's not connecting and we didn't have uh well, we
had to take out some detail and we didn't have
if I can just come in, I swear i'll leave,
won't take nothing but a memory. We didn't have that
which is the line that precedes the hook. And as
you know, the line that precedes the hook is often

(25:25):
more important or as important as the hook itself. Why
would you say to this song for seven years? Well,
you know, I mean I love songs, I really do,
you know, and it's well, it's it's a love hate relationship.
But songs that are unfinished, they just they kind of
drive me crazy. And um, I don't do that with

(25:47):
all songs, but there are certain songs that you're just
like loves the Only House took It took years. Um,
you know, multiple demos, and you know, you just you
just you just have to you know, you just have
a feeling about certain songs and you just gotta stay
with it. You know. Rewriting really does help with a lot,

(26:10):
you know, in songs. I mean, time does make some
songs better. I'm curious to know that's we're talking about
the House that built me? It took that long. How
did you know you were done? And then when do
you make that move to go okay, now really what
I'm done? Yeah? Can we get an artist? I don't
you know, it's almost like I think for the songwriter,
it's almost not up to us to even ask that question.

(26:32):
You know, we're so we have to be all process
and detach ourselves from the end result. So it's almost like, alright,
so we we wrote it, demoed it, turned it in.
Nothing wrote it, demo turned it in, nothing wrote it,
demoed it, turned it in. You know, the siren screamed
and the red lights flashed, and that's when we knew,

(26:56):
you know, it's I mean, everything we do is kind
of based on what four other people in the world think.
So it's if though, if if the bell rings of
those four of the people, then we're good. If not,
then we just have to keep going. So is Miranda
the first one to put it a hold? Well, I
mean it honestly, it was one of those like you know,
it was you know, it's like an atomic bomb. I mean,

(27:20):
it was one of those palpable reactions where everybody loved it.
Um you know, I went on hold for literally everybody
at the same time. And of course we were trying
to get the song to Blake Shelton and you know,
so the story goes, so Sony Terry Wakefield plays it
for Scott HENDRICKX, who's poll producing Blake Shelton Scott Hendrick

(27:43):
sends the uh you know, a tape or a CD
with ten songs on it to Blake Shelton every week
to listen to songs. He comes back from tour one
wind swept Oklahoma night, he puts the CD in his
truck and he's going down this highway and third song
in it's the House of Building Me. His girlfriend at

(28:04):
the time, starts weeping and he says, baby, what's wrong.
And she says, that's my story, and he said, well,
if that's your story, maybe that's your song. So if
you want to get a song to Miranda Lambert, you
work on it seven years, you pitch it to everybody,
get it on hold for Blake Shelton, and Miranda hears it.
So it's it's a it's a mysterious uh event. I

(28:29):
have no idea how to get a song to Miranda Lambert.
I really don't. So you get words. She's cutting the
song and at that point is that she's cutting it
and we think it could be a single for the
radio or is it Jess, she's cutting the song. She's
cutting a song. But I mean, you know, most songwriters
and I don't know, we really are fans I mean,
we are fans of music, and we're fans of country artists,

(28:51):
and we really we love country music. So everybody loves,
loved and loves Miranda, and so the fact that as
great a songwriter as she is, that she was cutting
a song that she didn't write was you know, an
equal honor. And so, you know, the producer Frankldell called me,

(29:12):
you know, after she recorded it, and he came, you know,
to his office and played it for him, and it
was so stark. It was like, I mean, it was
like it was like two guitars and a vocal. It
was like I was like, I literally said, you're not
gonna put any drums on it. I mean, it's like
it was just it was so like just bear that

(29:35):
I was. Honestly I was. I was. I probably probably
was discouraged. I was like, oh man, this is this
is I don't know what this is, but this is
it just doesn't sound like anything that I'd really heard
before and country music. But thank goodness, they were true
to their ideals and their art. And for both of you,

(29:55):
Miranda and for you, this this is a career changer. Yeah,
it's it's uh yeah, it's a career changer. It certainly is,
uh for Alan and me, And uh, yeah, I mean
it was, yeah, it was. I mean everything about it
was just phenomenal. I'm gonna play it and to hear
you talk about it, and to hear it like right here,

(30:18):
it's broken when you hear it right now, removed a bit,
removed from the process, removed from the awards, Like what
do you think right now when you hear it. I mean,

(30:40):
it's it's goose bumps. It's just it's something that you know,
It's just it's I think it's that's what music is
it it um you know her, she really has made
the song her own, which is the ultimate compliment to
a songwriter. That's miran a song and it's just that's

(31:02):
the greatest honor I think you can have as a writer.
And it's you know, it's just it does what art
is supposed to do, which is it It reduces our defenses.
It opens us up and helps us not feel numb
and feel something again. And so much of life is

(31:24):
all about numbing us, you know, in the chaos of life.
The headlines, Uh, it's it's it's a numbing you know. Uh,
that's a numbing process. And that's I think art. That's
what art does. It It reminds us to feel something
again when you have a song like that and it's
that big of a hit and you've already had hits.

(31:46):
We'll play some of the other other ones too, But
do people start knocking on the door a lot more?
You know what you would think? So, I mean we,
you know, were Alan and up both we thought, all right,
we're gonna try to leverage this to write with John
Legend or Beyonce or Adele or you know, kind of
we had visions of grandeur and honestly none of that

(32:08):
materialist I mean like nothing. It was like and I
still don't I don't know why now. Oddly enough, over
over time, you know, Allen and I thought, you know,
within the first year, we're gonna get all these very
fascinating co writes, and it just it really didn't happen.
I mean, we had, you know, we were able to

(32:29):
write songs. But I don't know. I think we I
think Allen and I got a little lost in the
in the in the in the tidal wave of the song.
One of the problems my wife and I have is
always what are we gonna cook for dinner because we
cook the same things over and over and over again,

(32:51):
spaghetti last week, spaghetti this week, spaghetti next week, spaghetti
wei the week out of that, and we're like, we
need something new. We're always getting a rut of cooking
the same things. And then we found it, Hello Fresh,
different items each week delivered right to our front door.
Cooking made simple. We were like, oh, we were so excited.

(33:13):
So you go to Hello Fresh dot com and let's
say you're a vegetarian. They have different vegetarian meals that
choose from, and when you open up that box in
your front door, all the ingredients are measured out to
the tea spoon and they have step by step instructions.
Thirty minutes later around you have the meal sitting on
your table. And right now you can get nine free

(33:34):
meals with Hello Fresh by going to Hello Fresh dot
com slash Bobby cast nine and using the code Bobby
cast nine. That's nine free meals with Hello Fresh dot com.
Go to Hello Fresh dot com slash Bobby cast nine
and using the code Bobby cast nine. Tell me about
this one here, because they got a lot of them.

(33:55):
That one what you talk about I run to you
from lady see right this with them? Yeah, all three
of them, all three of them. So you know, as
the publisher sets you up with the next big thing,

(34:15):
you know, weekly, the next big thing in Nashville, there's
a buzz. All of a sudden, there's this fresh faced
trio with kind of a crazy name and um so
that you know, Lady Antebellum is coming to your house
in two weeks. So I mean, and I loved what
they had done. I've heard their demos and I think

(34:35):
I've seen them around playing and so you know, I'm
as a professional songwriter, I'm supposed to have great ideas.
That's why they're coming to you. So they show up
and it's like, you know, with the successive day, I'm like,
the more time I have to prepare for something more paralyzed,
I've become. So I had I couldn't. I couldn't rhyme

(34:57):
Blue with you. So I'm running in the nat From Marathon.
Oddly enough, the weekend before I followed this guy for
five miles. He's got to run this town on the
back of his T shirt. So I'm thinking metaphorically, symbolically,
I run this town like the mayor like a mafia boss,
like you know, from point A to point being, I'm
I'm delirious following this guy. I developed an intense hatred

(35:20):
for the guy. Monday morning they show up and they're
gonna come at ten. I'm sick to my stomach. I'm
thinking this, how is this possible? I've got and I
have no ideas, and so literally they came, you know, eager, expectant,
you know, for me to have a you know, at
least a decent idea, and uh, I literally I put

(35:41):
my hands down on the piano and up saying, you know,
I run from haye and I run from prejudice. And
as I was even singing that, I was thinking, I
don't even know what it means, and I'm I wrote it.
I wrote these words, and I opened up my eyes
to think. They're packing their briefcases and leaving and they're like, man,

(36:04):
that is that is brilliant. Of course, I said, I've
been saving that for you that week. So unfortunately they
hung in there and that was but you know, it's
very poetic. It's odd words. You know, it's prejudice, pessimist,
I mean, it's it's I love poetry I'm really, I'm

(36:24):
I'm crazy about words, and uh you know, I mean
words are important, They're important to me. But I really
think people come to songs. I think I think people
think the first I mean you would. I'd be curious
to see what you say about this. So let me
make a gross, sweeping generalization. Rhythm is the foundation of songs.

(36:50):
What do you say to that. I think there are
a lot of songs that I love and I have
no idea what the words are. But but I think
more importantly than melody or chords or production, it's rhythm.
Rhythm really is what rhythm is what draws us in
um and I really I haven't really paid attention to

(37:13):
that through the last twenty four years. But the longer
I'm doing this, the more and more I'm I'm at
least paying attention to rhythm. There's this song now, yeah,
if you're desposito Desposito, it's like the new most dream
song ever, YouTube song ever. It's all Spanish. I don't
know why I love it. It's got a rhythm though
this oh yeah, I have I heard about it because

(37:37):
it's the most stream song. Yeah, and again you say
that I don't know a single word of it. That's fascinating.
But I listen to the whole thing and I'm like, yes,
you get it, Like this is this my jam? I
feel it like I know what. I don't know what
they're saying, but I know what they're trying to say. Right, Well,
you're you're you know how it makes you feel, which
is you know that. That's what they often say is
that I'm not really I don't really remember what he said,

(37:57):
but I know I remember how he made me feel.
That a lot of times that's what music. Does you
teach songwriting? Well, yes, how do you teach songwright? Like
if I want to take your class, right, well, I
really specifically it's lyric writing, so you know, we do
get into the whole thing of songwriting. But I still

(38:20):
am affiliated with Belmont. Um, I love Belmont, but I
taught lyric writing with my co talk with a friend
of mine for five years and um, you know, really,
I mean lyric writing is uh, you know, it's just
trying to get people to not edit what they do
and just you have to kind of start free form. Um.

(38:45):
I mean like literally, if we were going through an exercise,
would be like let's you and I go to the
Frist Museum and let's see whatever exhibit is there, and
let's walk around those rooms. Let's just let's just find
a painting or a sculpture that means something to you
that you just you just like, and then let's come

(39:05):
back and maybe take a picture of it, and let's
write a short story that you know, that illuminates whatever
this picture happens to be. And you know, so you
write two hun or fifty words and then you say, okay,
so you know, if like, what's the main point from

(39:26):
that two or in fifty word essay? Uh, you know,
it's you know, it's you know, it's fear of flying.
Uh and you know, and so you just kind of start, uh.
You know. Lyric writing particularly is just it's just getting
in touch with who you are, giving yourself permission to feel.

(39:47):
And um, I think there are two types of songs
and two kinds of songwriters. I'm always trying to remember something,
and I think most people are trying to forget something.
So every song I write is really about remembrance. But

(40:07):
I mean the majority of songs that you play on
your radio show I think are about forgetting example of
each place. Well, um, like what's the what's the number
one song? And take um uh, take Thomas Rhett and
Mary Morris a song. Okay, So that's that's about. I

(40:29):
think that's that's the whole thing. Makes you forget something,
it's your uh. I mean, if I were to put myself,
you know, in the mind of the writers, they're just
they're they're just it's it's just about one small, unique experience,
which is it's a moment in time. It's a relationship,

(40:50):
it's a thing, and it's it's you're not it's there's
no there's no past and there's no future. It's just
all right now. So it's to me, it's a connect
from you know, from the before and a disconnect from
the after. Um, I mean any of those songs. I
mean the House of Built Me is you know, I'm

(41:11):
trying to I've gotten lost and I can't remember where
I'm from or to whom I belong, and it's just
about coming back home and remembering who you are. We
played this one here Keith and Church when you rode
this was it written for two people? No? No, And

(41:34):
I mean honestly, Jeffrey Steele and I walked in on
Jaren Johnston, who's an amazing songwriter in the being Cadillac
three and Jared kind of had this thing started and
he had he had the title. So Jeffrey and I
just were like kids in a candy store. All all
we started do is we just we just started every

(41:54):
I mean you like literally we just sat there and thought,
let's connect everything that could possibly connected with the words
raise them up, and let's just fill the verses full
with that. So raise up a glass, raise up a sale,
raise up a you know, raise a toast, you know,
raise up a flag, you know, raise up a child.

(42:17):
It's just I mean, that's that is just kind of
a free form association of of of one of three
words raise them up. Did that would feel good? And
completely finished it? Yeah? That was that was That was quick.
It was one day. Jaran does these amazing little demos,
and um, I mean I think we played it for

(42:38):
a few people. But then when we heard Keith loved it,
that was amazing. And but then, I mean, then we
have heard this through the you know, through the years.
I don't I mean Keith didn't say this, but I've
heard people say that he got a little bit uncomfortable
with the fact that he's Australian and there's that patriotic
verse and he was like, I don't know if I

(42:59):
can pull this off. Can an Australian gassing about, you know,
fist black and blue, fight for the truth? Can you can?
He sing? And I think it's the producer, like Nathan
Chapman said, well, what if we got, you know, somebody
to come in and sing it with you? And I
think he just said that's brilliantly. So I don't know
if that was Keith's idea or Nathan's, but somebody had

(43:21):
a great idea to get the Eric Church involved and
that was that was that was amazing. Nobody boy American
and Eric Church. That's right, it's about as American as he's. Wow,
what a story. I love this George Straight song. And
to get George the song, well, George Straight loves Keith Gadius.

(43:45):
Keith Gaddis is a real he's a real cowboy Yatt.
So that's I wrote that with Keith. And I mean,
I'm not saying this to be disingenuous, Honestly, I sat
there while Keith kind of wrote that song and I
just was like, that's great, that's great. Can I get
you more coffee. That's amazing. Um, and he does you know,

(44:06):
I mean Keith gaddis he you know, he still is
an artist, but I mean he's he just he you know,
he just bleeds that West Texas you know, cattle rancher,
which is George Straight. So you say that that you
sat there, But if you're writing, you know, and you're
a longtime a thousands of sounds of songs, does it

(44:28):
kind of balance out where they're also songs that you
wrote and somebody else has sat there? Well yeah, and
and yes, yes, I mean there are days where you're
the editor in their days where you're the artist in
the room. Um, so you just you just kind of
there can't be I think you can't. There can't be
two artists they compete, and there can't be two editors.
Somebody's got to take the lead. So I have done

(44:50):
this long enough that I really I do want to
facilitate whatever's that. We just want to honor the song.
What does the song need? That's what I want to
you know, that's what I want to do. That's really
interesting that you you say it like that, because no
one said it before, where you're kind of filling roles,
and the role is gonna be feeled differently each time

(45:11):
you write a song. Right, But somebody's driving and somebody's
got the map out right. That's that's and I haven't
been able to articulate like that, but that's exactly like
we've got a destination. The destination is a song. The
journey is the process. Yeah, so you you can't be
two drivers and it can't be two navigators. Man, you

(45:33):
should really write songs because it's it's fantastic. Yeah, that's fantastic.
How about this on here? Mean back with Mamma's the
Porchla song, come on in Suffers on the store and
Beers and the bridge, every when the song came out.
And for me, I grew up listening to him on
the radio like I grew up and it was Garth

(45:54):
and Tim and you know even you play calling right
like that to me was when I was listening to
Kissing ninety six and the rock are u s ninety
seven and Hot Springs, those are the artists on and
I remember, you know, Tim growing up listening to it
just to start with obviously any out long and don't
take the girl like his first couple of singles and
then following him all the way up. And when this
song came out, I was actually on the radio getting

(46:15):
to play it. I was like, man, this is so
traditionally progressive. It was almost like a rewind song that
still sounded like today. When you write a song like that,
do you feel like you're doing that, like you're trying
to take a step back. I don't know, I don't.
I don't think it's as I don't think it's as
conscious as that. You know, we're all the everything we

(46:39):
do is the you know, summation of everything that that
you know, that's come before us. So we're all we're
borrowing from ourselves, we're borrowing from I mean that is
very similar to you know, just to see you smile,
just to see you smile. But the trend, though, was
not that when that song came out. I know. I
mean that's the magic of Tim McGraw who continues to

(47:02):
reinvent himself and kind of defy tradition. When it gets
real you know, real progressive, he'll do that. And then
when it gets real country, he'll do you know, you know,
live like you're dying. I mean, he is a you know,
he's a he's a metamorphosis. You have a lot of
Tim cuts, and I mean I have five up here,

(47:23):
and you may have more than that. But so are
you in the what they call Tim camp where he
hears I love Tim mcgrawl. And again, I mean he
has recording more of my songs anybody. So, so Tim's
recorded more of you than anybody else. So I mean,
you know, I mean if Tim and I are friends,

(47:44):
but you know, I mean, as artists, they have to
be like, what's the best for this record at this
particular moment. So at the same time, though, they have
a voice, and if someone has a voice like your
inner voice, hey, you're like, man, they actually speak, They
speak like I speak. Do you feel like that? Well,

(48:07):
excuse me, yeah, I think so. I mean, I mean
he has three children. I have three children. Um. The
way I really got connected to him was was through
grownm Indo't Cry. That was the first song he had.
And then uh, he invited me to come out to
California when he was doing the movie Flicker because they
needed an entitled for the movie. And so I went

(48:30):
out there and I spent a couple of nights on
the set with him and met Billy Bob Thornton, and
it was an amazing experience, but just trying to soak
up the sights and sounds of that movie and uh so,
you know, yeah, there's certainly commonalities to his life. I
think we probably, you know, in some ways the way
we look at life and think are similar. This one here, well,

(48:59):
I love I love the South, I love my daughters
and my wife. I went to Old miss so I
spent a lot of time in Oxford and Oxford, Mississippi.
Oxford has this amazing bookstore called Square Books. And you
walk in Square Books and it's got um a great
poster that says, you know, uh, Southerners, we may not

(49:20):
know how to uh talk, but we sure know how
to write. And they had pictures of Udora Welty and
you know, Robert pin Warren, William Faulkner, and Flannery O'Connor,
and I just I just started thinking about the distinctive
way that Southerners think, talk, and the way that we
look at the world. It really is is very different
than other parts of the country and just kind of

(49:42):
what a Southern voice is. And so my friend Bob
de Piro, who's from you know, he's not he's from Ohio,
but he Uh, you know that that really was so
fun to write because we just kind of name checked
every famous Southerner that there was, from Michael Jordan's to
you know, Bear Bryant to Billy Graham to Dale earn Hart.

(50:03):
It was just that was that was a fun one
to write. Did you write today? I did right today?
How do you feel about today's right? Well, today it
was with my least favorite co writer, which is myself.
So I was I was working on a song by myself.
Uh so it's it's you know, it's it is. The
songs I write by myself are different. Um, but you

(50:29):
know it's I don't know, it's it's kind of a beautiful,
torturous relationship, you know, when you're right by yourself. I
really do like it. It's uh, I love co writing,
but I do. I really like writing by myself as well.
How hard is it to remember all the writers that
you write with, because you throughout a number that you've written,
how many songs you don't know every co writer you've

(50:53):
been with them, and people are like, hey, you wrote
this song? Is it hard you have to let go
back and cramp sometimes? Well, yeah, I mean, I was like, up.
You know, in the last year, I was at a restaurant.
I was eating dinner with some friends and it was
a coat. It was a songwriter and his wife and
this girl comes up to the table and they're talking
and because my friend Barry Dean, and he says, this

(51:15):
is Stephanie, and uh, I said, Stephanie, so nice to
meet you. And she said, well, actually we've written together.
And I was like, that's embarrassing, and I trickly tried
to quickly try to recover. Oh yes, yeah, I remember
that it was. But anyway, yeah, it's uh. But you know,
we're all kind of about the songwriters are about all

(51:36):
the next thing, like whatever has happened in the past,
it's just it just doesn't matter. Songs in a sense,
even the catalog, all these songs, I mean, they sound amazing.
It almost like it shocks me to hear the songs,
because I songs in a sense become poison and that
they will try to destroy you. So and what I

(52:00):
mean by that is is what they do is they
try to keep you in the past, and they try
to prevent you from going on to the next thing.
And as a writer, we have to be all about
the next, the next thing. You know, the best song,
it's the best song I've written, it's the next one.

(52:21):
So you come to Nashville and eight you move away.
A few years later, you move back in two thousand
nine or so, you win the triple. You have a
triple play three number ones in the same year. That's
like movie type style. Well, you know it should give
everybody that's you know, that's still I mean, we're all aspiring,

(52:42):
but someone that's you know that hadn't quite figured it
out yet. I mean, I didn't get my first country
song record until Lost forty one. And you know, if
you love it, you just you just stay with it.
And it's it's a gift, and you know, you just
try to enjoy the God given gift of creativity and
be about it, share your music with anybody and everybody

(53:04):
that will listen. And I'm just looking at some notes
here even it's just wild that you've been relevant so long,
from calling Ray to Brett Elder something I'm good at
and with I say relevant, Like on the progressive side,
you've been progressive for so long, Like that's quite the
span of time to be progressive, because progression always eventually

(53:27):
it's caught. Well, I do think about that, you know,
I think one of the keys to you know, I mean,
of course, I'm I'm now you know, it used to
be I was like the father in the room, and
now I'm the grandfather in the room. So that I
think one of the ways to do that is is
just to embrace that. But you know, it's continuing to
I mean, I collaborate with a lot of very young people,

(53:50):
you know, people that are like, you know, like you know,
I asked, I'll, you know, come up like how old
are your like how how old are your parents? Forty five?
You know. I was like, so you just you have
to keep working younger, writing younger. And you know, I mean,
I'm I'm trying to write the perfect song. I mean,

(54:11):
I'm like, I'm just I'm driven to, you know, try
to get better. Like that Brett Elder song. It's nuts.
But you talk about rhythm, there's a lot of rhythm.
I mean, that's a perfect case of what I'm talking about.
But I mean that's again, I was. I had tortured
Brett for about three hours trying to write like we'd
written a song that we both love called one Mississippi.

(54:33):
That was on his first album, song by the Way,
and we were trying to write that part two and
just couldn't do it, and so Brett said, finally, he
was like, hey, what if we just and he just
started banging out some rhythm and I just got my
notebook and I just started jotting stuff down, voice memoving
him doing it, and you know, probably within an hour

(54:54):
we kind of had it and just thought, well, at
least that was like a cathartic experience. Uh, it was
a cleanse and uh, you know, I mean, but that's
I was just I was Brett Eldridge's lightning in a
bottle and I was just trying to capture it. He's
he's magic. This is Gwyneth patro song Coming Home Again.

(55:21):
That's a that's a veer. Yeah right, she's playing a singer.
Yes she can sing. Yes, yeah, it was that was yeah,
I mean it was that was Was it written for
this yes? No. So you know, Sony kind of had
an inside track when This Country Strong was being made,
and so everybody in town, you know, started writing songs

(55:43):
for it, but you literally got a script. And to
be like, I love writing songs for movies. So you
write a script. I mean in the script is like,
you know, it describes the scene and you know, song
needed here, and so I got with you know, Hillary
Lindsay and Troy Vergis about Arrow and we you know,
we wrote that together. But yeah, we were writing that

(56:04):
for the movie. And honestly, Hillary Lindsay is like, have
you ever have you ever heard her singing? Oh? Yeah,
we play a lot of it. I mean, so she's
just so she was singing, and it was just we
were just all transported to another realm. But yeah, that
that was we we That was n weird to see
your song in a movie. It is, yeah, of course

(56:25):
it wasn't really in the movie that long, but you know,
it's not Chicago, but even for a second. Yeah, yeah,
but that was we got to go to the Golden
Globes and the Oscar So that was that was That
was crazy. What impresses your your family? Your kids now,
because you've done a lot like what oppresses it? You know,

(56:45):
I mean I think they've been around it so long.
Now I do have a twenty six year old daughter
and she's writing songs with my encouragement, and so you know,
we kind of we talked shop and um, I mean
I'm encouraging her and she's encouraging me. I mean, my
wife is honestly read. She's co written every song I've

(57:06):
ever written, you know. I mean, I've made her listen
to almost every song, and she's great. She is not
impressed with me, she's not impressed in music, but she
she's got a great ear. So occasionally, you know, I mean,
she'll she'll often, you know, have a suggestion here there,
and I'll begrudgingly have to have to follow it. I
want to hear this demo one more time in the

(57:27):
house to build me. It's so good. You had to
be like this could be a thing when you cut this,
yet like this could I be the song? Well, honestly,
we think that every song we write, but even you
sing it like this here, even with every song, we're right,
and there's a point in the process where you think
this is the best song we've written, only to be

(57:48):
you know, disappointed about thirty minutes later. But I think
you have to Jimmy would have to scret song where
he talks about suspending disbelief. You have to suspend the
disbelief while you're writing to be able to write it
and you have to kind of think, God, this is
you just get caught up in the magic and mystery
of collaboration when you finish that thing. Because I have

(58:09):
a problem with when I write, like a book or
whatever I'm doing creatively, I hate it for a while. Yeah,
do you ever reach that point where you've been inside
of it so much that you just don't even know?
Like where was I? What was I? I don't even
understand what I'm trying to do here? Yeah, I mean
I feel like that constantly. But again, I think the

(58:29):
thing that we have to tell ourselves is, look, that's
somebody else's responsibility to make those value judgments. You're that's
not your job. You're that's the job of a publisher,
of of somebody else. I think when we get too
much in the headset of a critic or a somebody
on the business end of it, it's somehow thwarts the

(58:49):
creative process. So you know, it's like the critic in
our head is you know, that's the arch enemy that
we have to we just have to constantly try to silence.
It's the critic who's trying to get you not the
right or to be too critical or you know, just
to be inside your head instead of you know, being
on the paper, being present. It's it takes great mental

(59:12):
discipline to do this, don't you think I don't have it?
Like and again, all right, in a lot of different ways,
you know, constand up comedy books, you know. But my
discipline is just continuing to do it. But there's nothing
that I do and I come away from it going
that was good ever, because I get inside of it
and I'm like, this is not funny anymore. This is

(59:32):
not good anymore. This is not compelling, and I just
want to run away from it. Every time I want
to run away. But well, I know, I mean I
feel like that too. I am so I get so dissatisfied.
I just you know, you could. It's it's just it's
up and down the last couple of weeks. All I
can think about it all the time I've wasted and
all the all the opportunities I've missed. I really am,

(59:57):
I've just been And then i' start singing the scoreboard
clocks shows up again. I'm like, wow, am I am?
I take am? I am? I using the time that
I have, you know, to its greatest asset. And you know,
that those are. That's okay to do that for a while,

(01:00:19):
but you've gotta get rescued from that otherwise you just
again that's start. When I do that, I'm like, all right,
I'm worrying about the end result, which is is Tim
mcgawl or Blake Shelter, is anybody gonna care about this?
And then when when when you get there, then you're
you're kind of sunk. You have to quickly get off

(01:00:39):
that and be like, oh wait a minute, that doesn't matter.
What matters is the next song I gotta write. So
how much? I oh you if this our class? I
just took like that, these kids coming, this has been
like therapy. I should pay you about four just to
listen to the well I've enjoyed. It hasn't been. This
has been a fun hour for me. I appreciate you
coming by. Can people take your class? Well? I I honestly,

(01:01:04):
I got so busy. I don't have time. I didn't
I've had to temporarily halt teaching at Belmont. But I mean,
I'm very involved with the n s a I, which
is a great organization, and uh, I I love talking.
Is I'm not really teaching. I'm I'm co learning with somebody.
So it's like I love talking about it, I love

(01:01:25):
working through it. Um we really, you know, creative people,
we we need community, We need each other, We need
people to remind us of, you know, of of all
that we've got and um, you know, all that we're
doing and all that we're doing well, you know, because
I think the default, the normal default position in my

(01:01:45):
mind is just to think of all that I haven't
done well and the you know, all the time that
I've wasted. But uh, it's been very encouraging for me today.
But I'm telling you, I mean, you may not see
it like that, but you're you're you're incredibly creative and
you're it's not contrived, and it's fluid and it's fun,

(01:02:05):
and it's it's transparent. It takes, you know, and you
you do risk a lot, but I mean, that's that's
part of that's part of what we love about what
you do is that it's it's somehow you know, when
you're when you're willing to risk transparency, it allows other
people to kind of overlay their life onto onto what

(01:02:27):
you're doing and kind of live vicariously through it. So
that's all we're trying to do is just continue to
you know, kind of create art that other people can can.
You know, when we see the Mona Lisa, we're like,
there's something about her smile that allows us to overlay
our life on that, or Harry Potter or you know,

(01:02:51):
to kill a mocking bird or you know, it's like,
that's what art. That's what I think. That's why God
gave us art is it allows us to, um, you know,
find out something about ourselves, you know, but the key
to it has got to be transparent and vulnerable, and
that's awfume, not easy to do. I've enjoyed the hour.

(01:03:11):
I've really enjoyed the hour. Oh man, I felt like
I just went back to school episode seventy one with
Tom Douglas and I'm gonna go revalue. I'm gonna look
the scoreboard in my bedroom reevaluate a lotta and do it.
And thanks Tom, stop buying enjoying it. I'll see you
next time. Thank you everybody,