September 23, 2025 • 46 mins
Amy and Kat continue to unpack Dr. John Gottman’s famous ‘Four Horsemen of the apocalypse’ for relationships which has helped him be able to predict the failure or success of a relationship with a 90% accuracy rate. Week 2 is Defensiveness. It is that quick “it’s not me, it’s you” response that shows up when we think we are being criticized. Amy and Kat talk about how defensiveness sneaks in when we are stressed or protecting our ego (especially for Amy!!), and why it makes conflict worse instead of solving it. They share real-life examples, explain how even a hint of criticism can trigger us, and walk through the antidote of taking responsibility for your part. You will hear tips for pausing, owning your piece, and keeping conversations from turning into blame games. This episode will help you stay connected and turn tense moments into opportunities for understanding.
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Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy
Kat Van Buren // threecordstherapy.com // @KatVanburen
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
All right, break it down.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you ever have feelings that you just fons Amy
and Cat gotcha Covin locking a brother, Ladies and felts,
do you just follow an the spirit where it's all
the front and real stuff to the chill stuff and
him but Swayne, Sometimes the best thing you can do
it just stop you feel things.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
This is feeling things with Amy and Cat, Happy Tuesday,
feeling things. I'm Amy, I'm Cat. And this is week
two of the four horsemen. Last week we did Week one,
part one, however you want to put it, and we
tackled criticism one of the horsemen. The next horseman is defensiveness.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
You said that with a lot of umph. Are you
excited about this one?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Well, I think I'm more excited about it than I
was last week because whenever we were talking about criticism
last week and we decided that defensiveness was going to
be week two, I then had this realization thanks to
my boyfriend, and he didn't even know this is what
we were talking about. This just came up organically. He's like,
you get so defensive all the time, or you're always defensive,
(01:13):
and then that makes me think of criticism because he's
using the all or nothing type words, and I'm like, oh, really,
am I always defensive?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Were you being defensive about something? When he said that, Well,
he's not wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I don't know what it is. He thinks that I
jumped to that I'm being judged, so I have to
explain myself. And I don't know if it's defensive that
would fall into this category. But I also don't want
that to be me being defensive about it, like, well,
I get that we're doing this, but that's not me
because I don't want to make an excuse. And maybe
this is something that now I have awareness of and
(01:47):
I need to work on, or it's like some insecurity,
which I know that is an ego thing. So I'm
excited to learn more and also use this as a
very very very personal therapy session for myself. So thank
you for leading it, Kat. And I was thinking it
might be fun if I call him him and I say,
what is it you say that I always do? I'll
(02:08):
bet you one hundred dollars. He says, get defensive. Okay, okay, At.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I was gonna say, if he does say that, do
I pay you a hundred dollars? No?
Speaker 1 (02:18):
How about if he.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Doesn't say it. You have to pay an exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
No, I'm down for that.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
This is like this, Then you're really confident.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm pretty confident.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
There's no winning for you in this.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Okay, I know he's at the airport. Hold on, let
me see if he's gonna win, if he's gonna not
win the answer, if I'm gonna win. Hey, what is
it you say that I always do? Damn? Okay, thank you,
thank you by ye Wait no, no, I'm telling you.
(02:49):
It's only because this like just came up. So I
mean I I I led the witness with you say
I always do this last night at seven pm. It
wasn't last night, but it was in between our last
episode in this one.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Okay, so I'm gonna go ahead and say this. You
probably don't always do it, but maybe it pops up
a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Well, he gave me some examples, and I must say
he's not wrong. And then he was like, there also
is an example where he saw me do it to
my ex husband. So it's not that I'm just doing
it to him, not to my ex husband, but about
my ex husband. I guess. So we were at a
cross country race and my ex husband was there, and
then Alex was there because we're watching our son race,
(03:31):
and an interaction happened and we walked away and I
got defensive and he said, I don't think he meant
it that way, and I was like, oh, you don't.
He's like, no, I'm filtering things the wrong way to
where I feel like I need to respond with some
sort of defense. Let me ask you this. Another example
(03:53):
he gave was at the park. We had taken the
dog and it was a hot day and I didn't
have water for the dog, and I wanted to hurry
up and get back to the car because I realized
this was too warm. We shouldn't have done it, and
I was judging myself for it. So this person stopped
and was like, hey, would you like some water for
your dog? And I was like no, we're good. We
(04:14):
were almost to the car, but then they keep walking
and I instantly was like, oh my gosh, like they
were judging me. And he's like, no, I think they
were just offering a water and I was like, no,
they're judging me as a person and a dog mom
and I don't know what I'm doing and why would
I bring a dog out on this hot day and
(04:35):
not have water, But how do they know if I've
had water or not? Because we did have water. I
did give her some of my water, but then I
ran out, you.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Know, just nding yourself in the middle of Yeah, so
it sounds like you there's a projection there where like
you're assuming that they're thinking things that you maybe are
thinking of yourself. Sure, I'm trying to think if you
get like that with me, And I can't think of
specific examples, but I do know that you don't like
to be misunderstood.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, that is true. It might just be in my
romantic relationships and with my dog or with myself.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
There's a difference in being defensive in I mean, I
get with the dog thing. I get that, and like, yes,
maybe there are some defensiveness there that you can check
in with and what was going on with me, And
we'll talk about that as we get into this. But
what we're talking about is how it impacts communication and
vulnerability and getting needs met in relationships.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah. That's why when I read over some of your notes,
I was like, I don't think this is me. But
then I didn't know if that was me getting defensive
because it is me.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
It might be I get defensive, So like, okay, I'm
guilty of some of this. I should say this because
last week when we started, we talked about how like
these things are predictors of the demise of relationships, and
these things help predictive relationships able to be carried on
in a healthy way long term or not. You're going
to do these things everyone a while. It's not about
(06:01):
never doing this. It's not all or nothing. It's more
so looking at the whole of things. So if the
majority of the time it's progress not perfection kind of thing, like,
I can be consistently not defensive, but every now and
then I might get defensive. And the helpful part of
this is when I noticed that popping up, I can
(06:22):
clock it and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on
with me right now? What's happening? What judgments am I making?
So then I can create a repair. I'm glad you're
saying this because people that are listening might be like, oh,
I do that my relationship is going to end. We're
all going to do this.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Oh yeah, I think I still have hope for my relationship.
I think that it was just brought to my attention
by my partner that I do this.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, what a healthy response to, like check in with that,
versus you being defensive and saying no, I don't you
do it? You know, yeah, that would be bad.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I'm thankful that I was able to even when he
pointed out what I was doing with my ex husband,
I was like, huh, okay.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You're not that anging like taking feedback.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Oh thanks. I hope to be. I'm sure I'm not always,
but I really want to be. And I think that's
also a sign of even though he did use the
word always, and he likely shouldn't because I know I'm
not always defensive. He's a very stable person in my life.
He met my sister's husband recently for the first time,
(07:29):
and my niece that's the second time she met him.
And then our friend Chase, that was like the second
time he had hung out with him, and we were
all together, and my niece said to him, Hey, what's
your favorite thing about Amy? And then I said she
was like, okay, I mean, what's your favorite thing about him?
And we boiled it down to that he's steadfast, like
he's consistent and calm, and my nervous system really needs that.
(07:54):
And so now I am doing self reflection of like,
because I don't have the chaos that I've had in
previous relationships. Partly my fault for the chaos too. But
since there is no chaos, what part of me is
still on edge that has to like defend? So like
maybe that's my Like we're an onion and we're peeling
(08:14):
back the layers and I've worked on all these other things,
and maybe this is one of my lingering, my lingering layers.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah, yeah, linger layers. Oh okay, ll you're l well
before we get into it, we're already into it. Do
you want to share your feeling on the day?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Sure, don't judge me. I don't have to defend myself.
I'm feeling sneaky. Can you tell you?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
See? I can see you can't. Yeah, well, dang, I
but you are sneaky to everybody watching because I.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Did such a good job that I even forgot and
then I was scratching my face earlier and I was like, oh,
what's that I forgot? I have two pimple patches on.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Oh where's the other one?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Oh you thought I just had one? Yeah right here,
I see see I am sneaky.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
You are sneaky. So thought on this did you mean
to wear.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Did you wear them to work? Yeah? Yes, but it's
far enough away. I just forgot because I get ready
so early. And then I also had up close conversations
with people at work and I was like, well, dang, forgot,
and they definitely you meant to wear.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Them to work. Yeah, so did you know that specifically,
gen Z? I think where's like the pimple patches that
are in like the shapes of hearts and stars and
all that, like as style it is.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yes, my daughter does it. Yeah, she had a star
on her face at work the.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Other day and it just looks like they're wearing stickers
on their face, but it's pimple patch. Yeah. So my
reaction to that was like, I'm not going to do that,
but good for them for taking something that in my
age in high school, I would have mortified that I
had a pimple. So I definitely wantn't want to put
I mean it's like, what do you want to put
a pimple patch on it so people can't see your
pimple or they can see it, Like which is worse
(09:55):
or which is better? I'm like, good for gen Z
for taking something that we're taught is you should feel
insecure about and bad about. And they're like, I'm gonna
make it into fashion.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, well, good for the whatever company invented the stars
and the smiley faces, because they're like making bank. They're expensive.
The pimple patches, well, I haven't done the exact math
on per patch price the PPP, but it can't be
good because I keep buying them and I'm like, do
they work? Well, here's what my dermatologist said about them.
(10:28):
He's a fan of them, and yes they can work,
like they do have medicine and things happening to help
like pull it out. But he's like, the main thing
is it's going to keep you from picking at it
and keep you from infecting it or irritating it, and
then you have it for longer and then you're left
with a scar on your face. So he's like, that's
why I think they come in as like a total win.
(10:49):
I was going to try to figure out the PPP,
but if I do, I'm going to stop buying them
because I'm gonna be like, every time I pop one
of these stickers on my face, it's however much mine's
not the cute star first of all, I'm not gen z.
I don't know as a forty four year old woman,
I can walk around with a cute little star on
my face. But also I don't know that I should
be walking around with the clear obvious ones. Although today
I put a little makeup on top of one of them.
(11:11):
Obviously it's stuck around and did a good job because
you didn't notice it. But it just felt sneaky, well
good for you. And confident because I'm not going to
let a couple pimples stop me. Heck yeah, yeah, So
those are my feelings of the day.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Okay, wait, confident and sneaky. I like it all right, Well,
are you ready to jump in?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Ready?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
So we already obviously have told you guys were doing defensiveness.
The first horseman we did was criticism, and this again
comes from the things that John Gotman discovered help us
predict what is going to impact relationships in a negative way.
So second one, defensiveness. When you think of defensiveness, not
(11:50):
like the right definition. I just want you to tell
me what you think of when you think of somebody being.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Defensive, right, Well, just speak for myself here, like when
I know and I'm getting defensive. You're explaining an action,
but it might not be in the healthiest way for me.
I'm instantly going into like I need to protect mode,
or I'm a victim in this situation and I need
(12:17):
to clarify, like well, this is why this happened, or
like I'm being judged or attacked, like I thought the
dog people were automatically judging me when all they did
was offer me water. But then suddenly now I'm this
horrible person. Yeah, but I'm not. So I don't know.
Was that victim mode?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah? You I think obviously you've read some of my notes,
so you have some of these words in your brain.
And also that probably is what you would have thought originally.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Oh, that's you trying to allude that I'm just using
your note.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
No, you got it.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I mean I know, I know I already read it.
So I don't know how that.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Oh my gosh, you hit the nail on the head.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah. Well, I don't know how to answer it because
I have already read the notes.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
And then I have a trick question.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
But I know that my behavior is victimy.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Okay, so good self awareness. So the gotmans define this.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
But you're gonna sume I just got it from your notes.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
No, I I'm.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Doing role playing. Oh so that you know?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Okay, that's perfect. Yeah, okay. So the goblins defined defensiveness
as self protection in the form of righteousness or proclaiming
victimhood in an attempt to avoid a perceived attack. Okay,
so the important part here is to avoid a perceived attack.
We become defensive when we are criticized a lot of times,
(13:42):
and we talked about that last week of it kind
of sets you up to be defensive because it's an
attack on your character. But a lot of times too,
we become a defensive when we just perceive somebody is
criticizing us and maybe they're not. And that's where this
really gets dicey, because then we end up ignoring the
needs or the thoughts or the feelings of our partner
(14:03):
and we just immediately turn her around on them and
we don't end up hearing them. Then they can become
pretty frustrated because it's like, I mean, it's a what's
a domino effect? You say something to me, I just
hear the negative part, so then I put it back
on you. Then you feel not heard or listened to,
and then they put it back on me, and it
just goes nowhere good fast. So the first thing to
(14:26):
recognize is this might not be about what somebody is saying.
So the first thing to recognize is this might not
be about what somebody is saying. It might really be
(14:48):
about how I'm feeling. You were talking about that with
a dog, so you were already feeling.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Bad about having my dog out there and feeling like,
I'm why did I think the temperature was okay enough?
Like this is miserable for her, and then for me
because I'm feeling miserable for her and all I want
to do is get back to the car. Yeah, looks
like nobody noticing that I have my dog.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
So you're not. You're reacting to the words of this
person without listening to what they're saying. They're really just
offering you are right, but you're reacting to something going
on in your brain exactly. And then the other thing
that happens is you turn this around on people a
lot of times where it becomes it's not me me,
(15:32):
there's nothing wrong with me, it's you. This person is
being judgmental or you didn't do this, and that's why
you're trying to point the blame on me, and it
becomes a blame game. Now. There are times, because I'm
sure people will think, like, well, how do I know
when it's okay to defend myself? There are times when
it's like makes sense. If somebody's accusing you of something,
literally accusing you something of you that you didn't do,
(15:54):
you're allowed to stick up for yourself. But we're talking
about when somebody is really just sharing something that's mostly
about them, and then we're turning it around.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Okay, yeah, and that's where we get to also remind
ourselves and not everything is about us. I think most
of my defensiveness in my relationship is the the dog example.
It's the I'm making it into something that it's not,
you know, like I don't think I'm getting defensive back
on him, like, well, I wouldn't add to this way
(16:25):
if if you didn't do this, you know, like, I
don't think I have that behavior going on. As you
explain more, I'll cop up to it. If I do
have that behavior, I'll let you know. But I do
want to dig deeper, not here with y'all, but in
my own work of figuring out why. It's almost like
my it's just my go to it's my automatic response,
is like, and that's what he noticed. Even with my
(16:48):
ex husband, my excessan was just saying something to me
and we walked away, and I was like, oh, well,
he's implying that I'm da da da and he's like, no, I.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Don't say that.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
But then he becomes the bad guy because he's implying
this thing about and.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It's never anything that I'm getting mad at. But yeah,
it makes me wonder of how many times maybe I
built these false narratives that aren't really true when really
we'll keep using the dog thing an example, like someone
literally might just be offering me a cup of water
and I'm.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Like, huh, because maybe their dog was really thirsty they
were thinking about the other dogs there.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, the cup of water could be anything you insert
whatever situation it is for you, Like someone's literally just
being kind and you're it's a threat and it's not.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, So let's talk about more examples of what this
really looks like. So and you can insert any kind
of household situation or plans like something. This is what
we're going to use kind of the same kind of examples,
but we.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Love a good household chor example, yeah, we do.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Especially a chore that like I don't want to do.
But let's say that I needed my which we do.
We need our air filters switched out, right, And let's
say my husband has agreed to like switch them out
or something like that, and I say to him, hey,
have you had a chance to switch those air filters out?
I noticed last week that they were still the old
(18:12):
ones are still in there. Pretty normal request, right, Yeah,
And this is helpful for you to hear this because
because this isn't about you, you're not going to have
that You're not going to be thinking about all of
the extra noise, so you can kind of hear these
examples more clearly. So what defensiveness would sound like was
if I said that to my husband, hey have you
had a chance to change the air filters? If he
(18:34):
was getting defensive with me, he would say something like,
I was really busy today. I didn't have time to
do that. If you've had time to look at it,
why didn't you do it yourself? Okay, like why haven't
you done this?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Mean defensive?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Well, it can be mean like I've been really busy,
I've been working all day you've been doing X, Y Z.
If you had a chance to look at them, why
didn't you just change them yourself? Where he's one I'm
just checking in just but then he's flipping it back
on like you're the one that should have done it
if you've been thinking about it this much, you know,
And then it can be become even more like victimy
(19:09):
if somebody adds something like I've been so exhausted from
working so hard to support us. If you've had time
to look at it, you see how that turns into
like you're the victim that is worked, that is so
tired and exhausted, and like I'm the one that's just
like yeating around looking at the air filters. M. Yeah.
So when we do show up at defensive, what happens
(19:30):
is our excuses end up sharing I think I said
this already, showing our partners that we're not really hearing
them or not really listening to them. So rather than
hearing the request or hearing the thing that they're just
showing up with, we're thinking about how do I protect
myself because this is all about ego, which this might
help you, like if I have some kind of ego
(19:53):
block or I have some insecurity, I'm going to be
focusing on that. And this is a this is a
natural thing for us to do. So if I have
an insecurity, I'm going to focus on it more than
I probably want to. I'm going to be paying attention
to it. That's the filter. We've talked about filters a lot.
I'm filtering what somebody is saying, and it's going through
(20:13):
my filter, and then I'm hearing it, so I'm not
actually just hearing the words that somebody's saying. So another
example would be if I said something like, hey, I
noticed that you have a work dinner booked on Thursday.
That's actually when I have my book club and we're
going to need childcare. Pretty normal thing to say, right right.
(20:35):
Somebody who is defensive could respond and say something like,
I can't cancel a work meeting because you have a
social event. I can't just be looking at your social
calendar every time I have to do something for work.
I'm trying to support our family.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
When really all that's said is said, we should get
a babysitter.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Yes, where If you're really hearing somebody, what you might
say is like, oh, oh my gosh, thank you for
catching that that would have been a disaster if we
waited till Thursday and then saw that I can't cancel
that meeting, and I don't want you to miss your
book club. So let's see if we can find childcare.
If not, we'll find another solution. No big deal, right Yeah. So,
(21:15):
at its core, defensiveness is just a way for us
to protect ourselves. But what John Goutman does with all
of these four horsemen is he gives us a way
to solve this problem in our relationship, to solve the
issue with the communication, which we call the antidote. Do
you know what the antidote is not for this one?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I didn't read that part.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Oh, okay, okay, So for this the antidote would be
to just take responsibility, which you're gonna I think be
able to help describe this a lot, because it's the
same idea of like cleaning up your side of the street.
You know, like, usually it's not one person did something
wrong and they're the sole responsible person for whatever issue
(22:00):
there is a relationship. It's usually like, oh, there's something
that I can own up here, and like I don't
have to take responsiblity for all of it. But This
is the most simple, simple, simple thing ever. Take responsibility
for your part. So when you think about maybe the
dog example, what would.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
That look like, Well, I mean that's just where he
pointed out, like, I don't think that's what that person meant, like,
I don't think he's like I think you think that
people are looking at you and judging you, and they're not.
Nobody's even they're walking by you and not thinking about
you again, whereas I'm like, oh, they're walking by me
like horrible dog, mom, she sucks, what a loser?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Would it makes sense if that happened again for you
to just say, oh, my gosh, yes, I wish I would
have brought a bottle of water, but that'd be great. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I think looking back, if I was in a healthier
place with it, I could say I already feel like
I would need to clarify that I did have water earlier,
which is already dress like it's like a partial little
defensive can.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I think the important part of this is nobody's saying
that you did any any like, nobody's out here being
thinking those things, And so when people aren't thinking those
negative things about you, it's easier to like own that like,
dang it, it's hotter than I thought it was, which
I would have brought forty ounces in of twenty four.
Like nobody's out here saying like she's so dumb and
(23:28):
she shouldn't be able to own a dog because she
can't predict how much water she's gonna nobody's saying that.
So if nobody is attacking my character who I am,
then it's so much easier to be like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yes, like thank you, we would love water. Were almost
of the car, but that would be great. Yeah, I
should have just accepted the water. That's my thing, Like
I should have accept the water we were close to
the car. But the right thing would be to do
to set my feelings aside and give my precious dog
the water. And I mean, thankfully she was fine, Everything
(24:02):
was gonna be okay. I think I built it up
more in my head that I was just this horrible
dog person. And I guess it's the easiest example to give.
I mean, I'm sure there's more like in my relationship,
but I feel like this just is a like a
plug and play. You could insert whatever your situation or
scenario is, and how easily we make it all about us,
(24:22):
or at least I do when it's not. And that
was really my boyfriend's point was you do this often,
and he wasn't. He said it in a loving way.
He wasn't like, oh I know, I said it like
criticism like always, like you always do this. He wasn't
being rude at all. He was just like, hey, like,
(24:43):
are you aware that this is something that you do
a lot? But again, I don't think I'm the type
that's like throwing it back in his face of like,
well I've been working all day. Maybe if you did
a little something around here you would remember or whatever. Well,
you know, I had to bring the dot like I wasn't.
It's my own stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Well, you defend yourself versus turn yourself. You don't.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm not against him. Yeah, you do become yeah, yeah,
I get defensive at times where defensiveness isn't necessary because nobody.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Was well that's most of the time what's happening. Yeah, okay,
unless you start out, because how we talked about, like
if you start with criticism, you're going to dive right
into defensiveness. It just sets you up for that. So
like that's where it's like usually you are responding to
somebody saying something in attacking you, So I need a
new filter. But this is Yeah, so you're assuming that
somebody is criticizing you, but nobody's criticizing you, and so
(25:39):
there's actually no need to defend yourself. But what is helpful,
I think because this is also a pattern probably, So
this is about pattern breaking. So anybody who's listening, give
yourself a break and give yourself some grace because for
you to unwind this, you're going to kind of how
we talked about my tongue thrust last week, Like I
have to pick something in my house to see to
remind myself this, say, hey, where's your tongue sitting? So
(26:01):
I can train my tongue to sit at the roof
of my mouth instead of pushing out my teeth.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
So maybe before I speak, when I know something's happening
before I'm about to respond, I can pause and be like, oh,
what's happening with my response here?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
So, yeah, I have a couple of tips that will
help you, kind of helping the antidotes. Yeah, well, so
the antidote is take responsibility, but just to help, but
to help you get there, I have some tips and
one question to ask because I notice that I get
defensive when I'm feeling overwhelmed or when I'm holding something
in and then kind of ends up being this like
(26:35):
big explosion is like this is not who I am.
I don't hold myself and normally walk around feeling defensivenessness
or defensive throughout the world. So when I do start
noticing that coming out, I can ask myself what is
going on outside of all of this? What is going on?
Because I'm feeling something about me and that's why this
is coming out. So little tips, you ready, so little tips.
(27:13):
Instead of looking at being right, prioritize understanding what your
partner is saying.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Simple.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
We say it simple.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
We say it simple, but like you know, tongue thrust.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Yeah, if you notice wanting to defend yourself, acknowledge that
and take a break. So you talked about pickle.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Oh yeah, well that's yeah. With my ex husband we
have our code word pickle.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
So I think that that's another one of the tips
in here too, is like have a cool down word.
So if you notice yourself like get revving up and
like defending yourself, maybe you have another word instead of
pickle that is like, oh I need to like go
take a little time out for myself because maybe the
other person isn't going back forth.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, just like I need a break, and we'll circle.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Back and then clarify what you hear the person saying.
So how I was talking about the filter. It's so
helpful in any type of conflict.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
That was picturing me to the water person, because yes,
in couples therapy we do this exercise a lot. You're like,
so what I'm hearing you say is and you repeat
it back and then they get to say if what
you repeated back was what they meant. And so I'm
picturing myself to the stranger at the park, like, oh,
you want some water for your dog. So what I'm
hearing you say is you're just offering me water for
(28:28):
my dog. There's no judgment attached to me being a
horrible dog mom. And then they say that is what
I'm saying. Then I say, okay, I could take the water.
So can we practice this with anybody we encounter. So
what I'm hearing you say is you need me to
pay this right now? Yes, ma'am, I just need your
(28:51):
credit card, so okay, So no, I'm just thinking of
like any scenario where you might have to be like, hmm.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Can't you be defensive when you're like checking out it?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're just thinking if you're I don't know, you can
depends on your filter, ma'am. That'll be two hundred and
fifty dollars do right now? Right you know, I don't
know now right now. So what I'm hearing you say
is you need to pay for this right now.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I'm just practicing saying it back.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
You could do that with anything, ye, Or if you're
at the.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Mall and they're like, hey, do you want to, you know,
try this new foundation. So what I'm hearing you say
is you literally just want me to try this foundation.
It has nothing to do with my pimple patches and
my complexion.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So maybe in some of those scenarios you play that
out in your head, but her conversation with your boyfriend,
maybe that's when you share that out.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Loud here at a restaurant and they're like, oh, you
have really good salads. So what I'm hearing you say
is you really just have good salads or you think
I need to eat a salad.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, I mean you could do that if that would
be helpful.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
I'm just saying like, this could get.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Dicey, so I don't recommend you do that. However, if
you do have a feeling that like that come up,
maybe if you're at a restaurant and somebody says that
and you're like, oh my gosh, I feel like they're
judging me, and like now I feel like I have
to get a salad. Process that with a loved one
or therapist.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Okay, yeah, because well that's the filter. Yeah, it's like
they're like, of course we're just selling you we have
good salads. But if you perceive it as they're saying
you can't order anything else off the menu because clearly
you need the salad, then yeah, that's that's your information,
that's your data. Okay, Okay, next, so clarify with your partner.
Clarify with your partner or stranger what they mean.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
And then the last two are just again, own your behavior.
I think that it's hard for us to comprehend that
it's okay to just like own that I did something
without having to give a justification. Sometimes in our brains
it's way more bigger than it is in somebody else's brain, Like, so.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
What does that look like just like okay, like if
you say I did that.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Like if somebody is here, if you're if you're going
to if you're owing somewhere and you're running late, and
your partner's like, hey, we're gonna be late, Like I
really don't want to be late to this event. Can
can we get the show on the road and you
start just listing off all of the things that you've
done that day that have made you late this far.
You can just say like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry
I didn't I didn't manage my time well today. But
(31:17):
like let's just go. I'll finished getting ready in the car.
You don't have to continue to like explain its plansplants,
so just like, oh, you're right, we're behind. Let's go yeah.
Because that person's not attacking your character. They don't need
a justification. They're not really mad at you. They just
want to go yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
And I'm like, you know I have time blindness.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
That you don't have to say that, because that's saying
you know this about me. Oh, that's the subtle shift
of like this is your fault, you know this? Okay.
So like if yeah, if we're running late for something
and somebody's like, hey, like we're running late, and like
we still have to get gas, so we got to go.
If I'm like, you know that I take longer than
I say that I need, this is your fault. You
(31:59):
should have done this. It's what happened me. Have I
been ready thirty minutes ago?
Speaker 1 (32:05):
So that's not the way to handle it. Okay, What
if you just say, oh, yeah, I'm sorry, I know
this is important too. My time blindness was just really
on one today.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah, you can say that, But sometimes I'm just saying
sometimes it's okay to just say like, my bad and
then move on, okay, because we're making a bigger deal
than it probably really is. Yeah, and then the last one,
it's just like it's okay to say sorry, ask for forgiveness,
and move forward. Like it is okay to mess up.
It's okay to have done something wrong. We are going
(32:34):
to do that in all relationships. We're going to disappoint people,
we're going to make mistakes, we're going to forget things,
and it's okay to say like, oh my gosh, I
didn't put that in my calendar. I'm so sorry. What
can we do to fix it?
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Do you feel like with our working relationship, we do
a good job. I guess I'm curious if you notice
me getting defensive with you.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Well, that's what I was trying to think earlier.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
When you're just it with men and strangers.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
I think that you like to explain yourself, probably too
much more than you need to, because I think that
I can. I'm like having memories of experience of being like,
I'm not mad at you, okay, Like this isn't that
big of a deal, but you're just like I just
I think that's why I said, like, you like to
be understood. You hate being misunderstood, which you're saying, so
(33:23):
I get that, but maybe it could be helpful for
us to even check in around like Okay, the story
I'm making up in my head is that you're saying
this so then we can get to a rhythm of
not being having to Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
That would be helpful. And the reason why is because
we obviously have a lot of interaction. Yeah, and if we,
if I have practice with you, it might help me
other places.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
And you have permission. This is like so now an activity,
so like you have permission to be like, Hey.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
What's a word we can say to each other when
we notice each other like sib, it's not IB but
different Like if I if you notice me, or I
notice you getting defensive, what's a word we can say
so we can be like.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Oh oh, we would be like DM defensive much DM
okay okay, SIV if we're acting bachi and then DM
the emphasis with a question mark defensive much defensive much
DM okay. So then we just do a DM check
(34:25):
in love it. Not to be confused with dms and Instagram.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Not to be confused with check your DM right.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Just DM check in and then that way that that
would be helpful because I think the more, like you said,
if it's just become a pattern, it's more difficult to break. Yeah,
and that's what's going on in my case. I honestly
didn't know. That's how I was responding enough to make
my boyfriend of a year finally say to me, you
(34:54):
do this a lot. Ah, most that's crazy. Yeah, let
me ask you this. Do you count the first date
you went on or the day you became boyfriend girlfriend?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
We count the first date? So yeah, you count?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
That's why?
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Correct, everybody, Okay, when do you count? I didn't know
that's why I'm asking. I haven't been in a year
long relationship since I don't know ever. I mean I
was married now I know I was, but we got married,
so then all that changes.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
In college, I had two boyfriends on and off for
a couple of years, but we were on and off,
like we would break up, probably because I oh doin it,
and then we would get back together. Yeah, and then okay,
we would you know what I mean. So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
I think a lot of people count their first date.
I mean when they become boyfriend girlfriend, But I'm like,
uh uh, we communicated and did things and we're like
not dating other people during that time, so I want
to count it.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, I'll count. So coming up October eleventh, that will
be yere or something like that, and then that's the
exact day and.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Then something like that. I haven't really I didn't look
at the calendar. It was a Friday, not like I've
been counting down the days.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
So do be Saturday this year. He was wearing a
blue shirt and I wore pink dress. But something like that.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
But like, I barely remember it.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I don't even remember what I ordered corn bread, well,
I mean order more than that, but no, no, no
pimine cheese.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
We ordered.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
It was a lot of like side plates. I remember
my sister messaging me like, she's like, you have to
order this because she was looking at the corn bread
at the Tapa's menu and she was like telling me
things that she really wanted me to order.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Wait, you know how when you went to Red Pony
and they gave you the free stuff. So then I
went to Red Pony and they gave us something free
because I was her first time there, and I was
telling my friend about it, and she was like, they
gave us that same thing for free too.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
So they used to be their thing.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I think it's their thing that they say that like, oh,
what's your first time in? Like the chef wanted to
do this, but like, honestly, good for them, because unless
we were all sharing that, we would have never known.
And it did make me feel really special.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Oh, we felt really special. And my niece was in
town and we walked past that restaurant and she was like, wait,
is that where y'all went on vacage on vacage And
she's like, I think I listened to that whole episode,
and I was like, the whole one. Why do you
only sometimes listen to half? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
What does she mean by that? I don't know she's
gonna get bored in that one, so listen.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah, hey, if you keep a twenty one, twenty two
year old's attention, that's true for more than thirty minutes.
I think we're thirty seconds. Yeah, eight seconds.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
I derailed you anyway, Your year anniversary's coming up.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, well, I just was curious what y'all thought, because,
like my marriage, we got engaged after three months and
then married three months later, so we weren't even dating
a year before we were married, and then we were
married for seventeen years. So I don't know, you know
what I mean? Yeah, I don't know what. I don't
know what people count, and not that it really matters,
but it's just coming up. So we need to make
a decision what we're going to do to celebrate a year,
(38:03):
and then I need to notify him. Hey, FYI sorry,
According to my girlfriends, we celebrate date one. Not I
think it was like November two that he was like,
let's be exclusive, or he sent me to like check
yes or no or something, so it was like three weeks.
I mean, I think he knew after the first date.
He wanted to say that, but I told him I
(38:24):
was adult dating. So I was still dating other people, right,
But I didn't. I just was going to in case
it popped up. But then that's exhausting to me. I
knew I wasn't an adult dater. I was just going
to try. I just more talked on the phone to
that other guy for a little bit. Still, that was
exchange voice memo. It's probably more so than talked on
the phone.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
But well that's sweet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
So I don't know if it's a universal world, but
if anybody else is in my shoes, you go go
by the first date because it's more fun.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
I would be curious at what other people think, because
some people really do feel strongly about it.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Oh yeah, I wonder if on that date, should we
put on our same clothes and go to that same restaurant.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
You're acting like this is your fifteen year, like you've
been married for fifty years.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Well what if every year on October eleventh we put
on that out go eat at that same restaurant or
that same Remember.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
What we did for our year anniversary? And I have
no idea.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Well, see if we make it a tradition. Then we'll know. Yeah, oh,
I know, and it's only lame until it's not Like
the first year, it might be lame, and then later
it might be like when we're eighty and we're like
walking into the restaurant like they've been doing this every day.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
That actually, okay, I know.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
It's a tradition, lame until it's cute.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, tradition. Now I'm remembering, we went to the same
we went to the same place we went for our
first date. We went because we just got drinks on
our first date. We went to dinner there for our
year university anniversary.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Oh cute. Okay, Well, so maybe we could wear whatever
we want to be honest, but we could go to
that place and just.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Get Honestly, I want you to be seventy five and
wearing the same pink dress. Okay, you can't ever get
rid of that dress. Okay, I won't.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
I can't guarantee to always fit, but I do have
to already wear spinks with it.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Okay, then we'll cut it up and make it into
something else.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah. Ooh, I saw someone that I follow on Instagram
take their mom's wedding dress and cut it up into
a two piece and like they altered it enough to
where it looked similar, but they made it way more
of the time, so it looked very twenty twenty five,
even though it was from early nineties or something. And
(40:32):
they wore it to their rehearsal dinner.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
It was so cute. I mean, she went a two
piece with it.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
She cut it up and made it like a top
and a skirt, like a long skirt with a white top.
I mean, it didn't show her stomach or anything, but
she and then she attached a picture of her mom
wearing the wedding dress. You could see what it looked
like then, and you could tell it still had a
lot of its character and that it was the exact dress.
But she just made it more her style. And it
probably didn't take much work. She took it to an alteration.
(40:59):
I mean she had to dream it up a little bit.
But what a way to repurpose something special.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Do you have your mom's bddy dress?
Speaker 1 (41:06):
No?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
No, I wanted to do that with my mom's but
then I my mom.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Oh it was her second and she only got married.
She was pregnant with my sister.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Okay, the dress, it could still be cool.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
I think, is that why she wore blue? Though? She like,
h I'm not that pure something blue.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Maybe that was her something blue?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, I don't know. That was the whole thing. I
remember when I put that math together and I was like,
wait a second. Christy was born in October and y'all
were married in May.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Did you say that to her? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Was she like?
Speaker 3 (41:40):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Oh? We ended up learning the whole story, like it
was not great, Like my dad was married to somebody else,
my mom was married to somebody else. Then they got
my they got pregnant, but they were going to try
to be together anyway, and then they got together. Yeah.
And then later when my dad left my mom for
somebody else, which classic story, right, what do you expect?
But no, I'm not. I'm just saying that's what society
(42:05):
would say. And my mom, I think, even said, oh, well,
but my mom hadn't done that to him. And then
she that's when we started going to church, and she
really strengthened her relationship with the Lord and she just
felt on her heart like she really wanted to call
her ex husband and ask for forgiveness. And so that's
how I learned about it, and that was modeled to
me of like, this is part of my past and
(42:27):
I own it and I did this and look.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
At your mom a side of the street.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yeah. And so she called her first husband and he's
remarried and moved on. She was like, I have there's
nothing more to this phone call other than what I
did to you wasn't right and I want I wanted
to ask for forgiveness. And so that was really.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Good for her, cool, good example for you to see.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, and now my mom and dad are not here
to defend themselves.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
They don't need to, yeah, because we're not saying anything that.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
About We're not if anything. It's like for me, it's
just like, oh, you know their their lives are just
as messy as a lot of our lives. And as
kids growing up, you can't really imagine that. And then
when you grow up and you learn the details of
how it all happen, you're.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Like, wait, what you weren't perfect? What?
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And I'm rewatching Scandal right now and I'm like, do
you watch that at all? I've never seen Okay, well
this is going to be lost. I did finish the
Better Sister and one out of five stars. What I
really liked that.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
I did not like it, okay, and I don't really
understand it was too much.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, it was a lot. And Scandal is starting to
be a lot like watching it Olivia Hope.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Yes, Okay, she's like the secretary of State or something. No, no, no,
she's she's having she's having an affair with with the president.
She's a pr person, she's a fixer, and she's having
the affair.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Yeah okay, I mean, but it's way messier than that.
But it's almost like she is doing all these things.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Were recapping to show from like, but it's.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Back on Netflix, so a lot of people are rewatching it.
My point in bringing her up in all this, though,
is like she's really likable. Now we're getting into a
season where I'm like not finding her as likable, but
she's doing all this stuff and you're sort of rooting
for their relationship and you're like, wait a second, I
don't feel like I should be rooting for this, but
then you know how awful his marriages and his situation,
(44:23):
so then you're sort of rooting. It's like this love
story is like I don't know, Seanrames, It's like this
really confusing thing where you're like, wait, I don't feel
like I'm supposed to be rooting for this, but I am.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah. I mean I kind of like those kinds of
shows because it shows you that things aren't as black
and white as yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Well, and I think that also some of the stuff
with my mom and dad taught me that of like, oh,
it's not as I don't under I'm never going to
understand someone's full picture, and it's easy to sit on
the sidelines and like judge something. Yeah, without So what
I'm hearing you say is you just want to give
my dog water.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
And that's how we'll wrap it up. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And what we are saying, and we hope you hear
us clearly, is we hope you have the day you.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Need to have. Yeah. I was gonna say, that's not
how we do it. I hope you have. I couldn't
think of the.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Words after saying I said it wrong. What I'm hearing
you say is did I mess it up? No?
Speaker 3 (45:17):
No, no, let me restart. I got confused because I
forgot what I was supposed to say. It was about me.
Let's try it again.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Good on your side of the street, DM, I know
it's just practicing ARC. I'm like also reminding people of
our acronyms DM, defensive much question DM. We need the
tone to be right because like sib.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
DM DM, but you're doing it kind of.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Because it's like if you were to say defensive.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
Much no, but you want it to be kind DM.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
But playful. Oh DM carpai DM. Okay, gotta go getting
delirious by
All right, break it down.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you ever have feelings that you just fons Amy
and Cat gotcha Covin locking a brother, Ladies and felts,
do you just follow an the spirit where it's all
the front and real stuff to the chill stuff and
him but Swayne, Sometimes the best thing you can do
it just stop you feel things.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
This is feeling things with Amy and Cat, Happy Tuesday,
feeling things. I'm Amy, I'm Cat. And this is week
two of the four horsemen. Last week we did Week one,
part one, however you want to put it, and we
tackled criticism one of the horsemen. The next horseman is defensiveness.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
You said that with a lot of umph. Are you
excited about this one?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Well, I think I'm more excited about it than I
was last week because whenever we were talking about criticism
last week and we decided that defensiveness was going to
be week two, I then had this realization thanks to
my boyfriend, and he didn't even know this is what
we were talking about. This just came up organically. He's like,
you get so defensive all the time, or you're always defensive,
(01:13):
and then that makes me think of criticism because he's
using the all or nothing type words, and I'm like, oh, really,
am I always defensive?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Were you being defensive about something? When he said that, Well,
he's not wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I don't know what it is. He thinks that I
jumped to that I'm being judged, so I have to
explain myself. And I don't know if it's defensive that
would fall into this category. But I also don't want
that to be me being defensive about it, like, well,
I get that we're doing this, but that's not me
because I don't want to make an excuse. And maybe
this is something that now I have awareness of and
(01:47):
I need to work on, or it's like some insecurity,
which I know that is an ego thing. So I'm
excited to learn more and also use this as a
very very very personal therapy session for myself. So thank
you for leading it, Kat. And I was thinking it
might be fun if I call him him and I say,
what is it you say that I always do? I'll
(02:08):
bet you one hundred dollars. He says, get defensive. Okay, okay, At.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I was gonna say, if he does say that, do
I pay you a hundred dollars? No?
Speaker 1 (02:18):
How about if he.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Doesn't say it. You have to pay an exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
No, I'm down for that.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
This is like this, Then you're really confident.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm pretty confident.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
There's no winning for you in this.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Okay, I know he's at the airport. Hold on, let
me see if he's gonna win, if he's gonna not
win the answer, if I'm gonna win. Hey, what is
it you say that I always do? Damn? Okay, thank you,
thank you by ye Wait no, no, I'm telling you.
(02:49):
It's only because this like just came up. So I
mean I I I led the witness with you say
I always do this last night at seven pm. It
wasn't last night, but it was in between our last
episode in this one.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Okay, so I'm gonna go ahead and say this. You
probably don't always do it, but maybe it pops up
a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Well, he gave me some examples, and I must say
he's not wrong. And then he was like, there also
is an example where he saw me do it to
my ex husband. So it's not that I'm just doing
it to him, not to my ex husband, but about
my ex husband. I guess. So we were at a
cross country race and my ex husband was there, and
then Alex was there because we're watching our son race,
(03:31):
and an interaction happened and we walked away and I
got defensive and he said, I don't think he meant
it that way, and I was like, oh, you don't.
He's like, no, I'm filtering things the wrong way to
where I feel like I need to respond with some
sort of defense. Let me ask you this. Another example
(03:53):
he gave was at the park. We had taken the
dog and it was a hot day and I didn't
have water for the dog, and I wanted to hurry
up and get back to the car because I realized
this was too warm. We shouldn't have done it, and
I was judging myself for it. So this person stopped
and was like, hey, would you like some water for
your dog? And I was like no, we're good. We
(04:14):
were almost to the car, but then they keep walking
and I instantly was like, oh my gosh, like they
were judging me. And he's like, no, I think they
were just offering a water and I was like, no,
they're judging me as a person and a dog mom
and I don't know what I'm doing and why would
I bring a dog out on this hot day and
(04:35):
not have water, But how do they know if I've
had water or not? Because we did have water. I
did give her some of my water, but then I
ran out, you.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Know, just nding yourself in the middle of Yeah, so
it sounds like you there's a projection there where like
you're assuming that they're thinking things that you maybe are
thinking of yourself. Sure, I'm trying to think if you
get like that with me, And I can't think of
specific examples, but I do know that you don't like
to be misunderstood.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, that is true. It might just be in my
romantic relationships and with my dog or with myself.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
There's a difference in being defensive in I mean, I
get with the dog thing. I get that, and like, yes,
maybe there are some defensiveness there that you can check
in with and what was going on with me, And
we'll talk about that as we get into this. But
what we're talking about is how it impacts communication and
vulnerability and getting needs met in relationships.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah. That's why when I read over some of your notes,
I was like, I don't think this is me. But
then I didn't know if that was me getting defensive
because it is me.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
It might be I get defensive, So like, okay, I'm
guilty of some of this. I should say this because
last week when we started, we talked about how like
these things are predictors of the demise of relationships, and
these things help predictive relationships able to be carried on
in a healthy way long term or not. You're going
to do these things everyone a while. It's not about
(06:01):
never doing this. It's not all or nothing. It's more
so looking at the whole of things. So if the
majority of the time it's progress not perfection kind of thing, like,
I can be consistently not defensive, but every now and
then I might get defensive. And the helpful part of
this is when I noticed that popping up, I can
(06:22):
clock it and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on
with me right now? What's happening? What judgments am I making?
So then I can create a repair. I'm glad you're
saying this because people that are listening might be like, oh,
I do that my relationship is going to end. We're
all going to do this.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Oh yeah, I think I still have hope for my relationship.
I think that it was just brought to my attention
by my partner that I do this.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, what a healthy response to, like check in with that,
versus you being defensive and saying no, I don't you
do it? You know, yeah, that would be bad.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I'm thankful that I was able to even when he
pointed out what I was doing with my ex husband,
I was like, huh, okay.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You're not that anging like taking feedback.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Oh thanks. I hope to be. I'm sure I'm not always,
but I really want to be. And I think that's
also a sign of even though he did use the
word always, and he likely shouldn't because I know I'm
not always defensive. He's a very stable person in my life.
He met my sister's husband recently for the first time,
(07:29):
and my niece that's the second time she met him.
And then our friend Chase, that was like the second
time he had hung out with him, and we were
all together, and my niece said to him, Hey, what's
your favorite thing about Amy? And then I said she
was like, okay, I mean, what's your favorite thing about him?
And we boiled it down to that he's steadfast, like
he's consistent and calm, and my nervous system really needs that.
(07:54):
And so now I am doing self reflection of like,
because I don't have the chaos that I've had in
previous relationships. Partly my fault for the chaos too. But
since there is no chaos, what part of me is
still on edge that has to like defend? So like
maybe that's my Like we're an onion and we're peeling
(08:14):
back the layers and I've worked on all these other things,
and maybe this is one of my lingering, my lingering layers.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah, yeah, linger layers. Oh okay, ll you're l well
before we get into it, we're already into it. Do
you want to share your feeling on the day?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Sure, don't judge me. I don't have to defend myself.
I'm feeling sneaky. Can you tell you?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
See? I can see you can't. Yeah, well, dang, I
but you are sneaky to everybody watching because I.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Did such a good job that I even forgot and
then I was scratching my face earlier and I was like, oh,
what's that I forgot? I have two pimple patches on.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Oh where's the other one?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Oh you thought I just had one? Yeah right here,
I see see I am sneaky.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
You are sneaky. So thought on this did you mean
to wear.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Did you wear them to work? Yeah? Yes, but it's
far enough away. I just forgot because I get ready
so early. And then I also had up close conversations
with people at work and I was like, well, dang, forgot,
and they definitely you meant to wear.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Them to work. Yeah, so did you know that specifically,
gen Z? I think where's like the pimple patches that
are in like the shapes of hearts and stars and
all that, like as style it is.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yes, my daughter does it. Yeah, she had a star
on her face at work the.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Other day and it just looks like they're wearing stickers
on their face, but it's pimple patch. Yeah. So my
reaction to that was like, I'm not going to do that,
but good for them for taking something that in my
age in high school, I would have mortified that I
had a pimple. So I definitely wantn't want to put
I mean it's like, what do you want to put
a pimple patch on it so people can't see your
pimple or they can see it, Like which is worse
(09:55):
or which is better? I'm like, good for gen Z
for taking something that we're taught is you should feel
insecure about and bad about. And they're like, I'm gonna
make it into fashion.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, well, good for the whatever company invented the stars
and the smiley faces, because they're like making bank. They're expensive.
The pimple patches, well, I haven't done the exact math
on per patch price the PPP, but it can't be
good because I keep buying them and I'm like, do
they work? Well, here's what my dermatologist said about them.
(10:28):
He's a fan of them, and yes they can work,
like they do have medicine and things happening to help
like pull it out. But he's like, the main thing
is it's going to keep you from picking at it
and keep you from infecting it or irritating it, and
then you have it for longer and then you're left
with a scar on your face. So he's like, that's
why I think they come in as like a total win.
(10:49):
I was going to try to figure out the PPP,
but if I do, I'm going to stop buying them
because I'm gonna be like, every time I pop one
of these stickers on my face, it's however much mine's
not the cute star first of all, I'm not gen z.
I don't know as a forty four year old woman,
I can walk around with a cute little star on
my face. But also I don't know that I should
be walking around with the clear obvious ones. Although today
I put a little makeup on top of one of them.
(11:11):
Obviously it's stuck around and did a good job because
you didn't notice it. But it just felt sneaky, well
good for you. And confident because I'm not going to
let a couple pimples stop me. Heck yeah, yeah, So
those are my feelings of the day.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Okay, wait, confident and sneaky. I like it all right, Well,
are you ready to jump in?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Ready?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
So we already obviously have told you guys were doing defensiveness.
The first horseman we did was criticism, and this again
comes from the things that John Gotman discovered help us
predict what is going to impact relationships in a negative way.
So second one, defensiveness. When you think of defensiveness, not
(11:50):
like the right definition. I just want you to tell
me what you think of when you think of somebody being.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Defensive, right, Well, just speak for myself here, like when
I know and I'm getting defensive. You're explaining an action,
but it might not be in the healthiest way for me.
I'm instantly going into like I need to protect mode,
or I'm a victim in this situation and I need
(12:17):
to clarify, like well, this is why this happened, or
like I'm being judged or attacked, like I thought the
dog people were automatically judging me when all they did
was offer me water. But then suddenly now I'm this
horrible person. Yeah, but I'm not. So I don't know.
Was that victim mode?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah? You I think obviously you've read some of my notes,
so you have some of these words in your brain.
And also that probably is what you would have thought originally.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Oh, that's you trying to allude that I'm just using
your note.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
No, you got it.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I mean I know, I know I already read it.
So I don't know how that.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Oh my gosh, you hit the nail on the head.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah. Well, I don't know how to answer it because
I have already read the notes.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
And then I have a trick question.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
But I know that my behavior is victimy.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Okay, so good self awareness. So the gotmans define this.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
But you're gonna sume I just got it from your notes.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
No, I I'm.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Doing role playing. Oh so that you know?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Okay, that's perfect. Yeah, okay. So the goblins defined defensiveness
as self protection in the form of righteousness or proclaiming
victimhood in an attempt to avoid a perceived attack. Okay,
so the important part here is to avoid a perceived attack.
We become defensive when we are criticized a lot of times,
(13:42):
and we talked about that last week of it kind
of sets you up to be defensive because it's an
attack on your character. But a lot of times too,
we become a defensive when we just perceive somebody is
criticizing us and maybe they're not. And that's where this
really gets dicey, because then we end up ignoring the
needs or the thoughts or the feelings of our partner
(14:03):
and we just immediately turn her around on them and
we don't end up hearing them. Then they can become
pretty frustrated because it's like, I mean, it's a what's
a domino effect? You say something to me, I just
hear the negative part, so then I put it back
on you. Then you feel not heard or listened to,
and then they put it back on me, and it
just goes nowhere good fast. So the first thing to
(14:26):
recognize is this might not be about what somebody is saying.
So the first thing to recognize is this might not
be about what somebody is saying. It might really be
(14:48):
about how I'm feeling. You were talking about that with
a dog, so you were already feeling.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Bad about having my dog out there and feeling like,
I'm why did I think the temperature was okay enough?
Like this is miserable for her, and then for me
because I'm feeling miserable for her and all I want
to do is get back to the car. Yeah, looks
like nobody noticing that I have my dog.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
So you're not. You're reacting to the words of this
person without listening to what they're saying. They're really just
offering you are right, but you're reacting to something going
on in your brain exactly. And then the other thing
that happens is you turn this around on people a
lot of times where it becomes it's not me me,
(15:32):
there's nothing wrong with me, it's you. This person is
being judgmental or you didn't do this, and that's why
you're trying to point the blame on me, and it
becomes a blame game. Now. There are times, because I'm
sure people will think, like, well, how do I know
when it's okay to defend myself? There are times when
it's like makes sense. If somebody's accusing you of something,
literally accusing you something of you that you didn't do,
(15:54):
you're allowed to stick up for yourself. But we're talking
about when somebody is really just sharing something that's mostly
about them, and then we're turning it around.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Okay, yeah, and that's where we get to also remind
ourselves and not everything is about us. I think most
of my defensiveness in my relationship is the the dog example.
It's the I'm making it into something that it's not,
you know, like I don't think I'm getting defensive back
on him, like, well, I wouldn't add to this way
(16:25):
if if you didn't do this, you know, like, I
don't think I have that behavior going on. As you
explain more, I'll cop up to it. If I do
have that behavior, I'll let you know. But I do
want to dig deeper, not here with y'all, but in
my own work of figuring out why. It's almost like
my it's just my go to it's my automatic response,
is like, and that's what he noticed. Even with my
(16:48):
ex husband, my excessan was just saying something to me
and we walked away, and I was like, oh, well,
he's implying that I'm da da da and he's like, no, I.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Don't say that.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
But then he becomes the bad guy because he's implying
this thing about and.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It's never anything that I'm getting mad at. But yeah,
it makes me wonder of how many times maybe I
built these false narratives that aren't really true when really
we'll keep using the dog thing an example, like someone
literally might just be offering me a cup of water
and I'm.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Like, huh, because maybe their dog was really thirsty they
were thinking about the other dogs there.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, the cup of water could be anything you insert
whatever situation it is for you, Like someone's literally just
being kind and you're it's a threat and it's not.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, So let's talk about more examples of what this
really looks like. So and you can insert any kind
of household situation or plans like something. This is what
we're going to use kind of the same kind of examples,
but we.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Love a good household chor example, yeah, we do.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Especially a chore that like I don't want to do.
But let's say that I needed my which we do.
We need our air filters switched out, right, And let's
say my husband has agreed to like switch them out
or something like that, and I say to him, hey,
have you had a chance to switch those air filters out?
I noticed last week that they were still the old
(18:12):
ones are still in there. Pretty normal request, right, Yeah,
And this is helpful for you to hear this because
because this isn't about you, you're not going to have
that You're not going to be thinking about all of
the extra noise, so you can kind of hear these
examples more clearly. So what defensiveness would sound like was
if I said that to my husband, hey have you
had a chance to change the air filters? If he
(18:34):
was getting defensive with me, he would say something like,
I was really busy today. I didn't have time to
do that. If you've had time to look at it,
why didn't you do it yourself? Okay, like why haven't
you done this?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Mean defensive?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Well, it can be mean like I've been really busy,
I've been working all day you've been doing X, Y Z.
If you had a chance to look at them, why
didn't you just change them yourself? Where he's one I'm
just checking in just but then he's flipping it back
on like you're the one that should have done it
if you've been thinking about it this much, you know,
And then it can be become even more like victimy
(19:09):
if somebody adds something like I've been so exhausted from
working so hard to support us. If you've had time
to look at it, you see how that turns into
like you're the victim that is worked, that is so
tired and exhausted, and like I'm the one that's just
like yeating around looking at the air filters. M. Yeah.
So when we do show up at defensive, what happens
(19:30):
is our excuses end up sharing I think I said
this already, showing our partners that we're not really hearing
them or not really listening to them. So rather than
hearing the request or hearing the thing that they're just
showing up with, we're thinking about how do I protect
myself because this is all about ego, which this might
help you, like if I have some kind of ego
(19:53):
block or I have some insecurity, I'm going to be
focusing on that. And this is a this is a
natural thing for us to do. So if I have
an insecurity, I'm going to focus on it more than
I probably want to. I'm going to be paying attention
to it. That's the filter. We've talked about filters a lot.
I'm filtering what somebody is saying, and it's going through
(20:13):
my filter, and then I'm hearing it, so I'm not
actually just hearing the words that somebody's saying. So another
example would be if I said something like, hey, I
noticed that you have a work dinner booked on Thursday.
That's actually when I have my book club and we're
going to need childcare. Pretty normal thing to say, right right.
(20:35):
Somebody who is defensive could respond and say something like,
I can't cancel a work meeting because you have a
social event. I can't just be looking at your social
calendar every time I have to do something for work.
I'm trying to support our family.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
When really all that's said is said, we should get
a babysitter.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Yes, where If you're really hearing somebody, what you might
say is like, oh, oh my gosh, thank you for
catching that that would have been a disaster if we
waited till Thursday and then saw that I can't cancel
that meeting, and I don't want you to miss your
book club. So let's see if we can find childcare.
If not, we'll find another solution. No big deal, right Yeah. So,
(21:15):
at its core, defensiveness is just a way for us
to protect ourselves. But what John Goutman does with all
of these four horsemen is he gives us a way
to solve this problem in our relationship, to solve the
issue with the communication, which we call the antidote. Do
you know what the antidote is not for this one?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I didn't read that part.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Oh, okay, okay, So for this the antidote would be
to just take responsibility, which you're gonna I think be
able to help describe this a lot, because it's the
same idea of like cleaning up your side of the street.
You know, like, usually it's not one person did something
wrong and they're the sole responsible person for whatever issue
(22:00):
there is a relationship. It's usually like, oh, there's something
that I can own up here, and like I don't
have to take responsiblity for all of it. But This
is the most simple, simple, simple thing ever. Take responsibility
for your part. So when you think about maybe the
dog example, what would.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
That look like, Well, I mean that's just where he
pointed out, like, I don't think that's what that person meant, like,
I don't think he's like I think you think that
people are looking at you and judging you, and they're not.
Nobody's even they're walking by you and not thinking about
you again, whereas I'm like, oh, they're walking by me
like horrible dog, mom, she sucks, what a loser?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Would it makes sense if that happened again for you
to just say, oh, my gosh, yes, I wish I would
have brought a bottle of water, but that'd be great. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I think looking back, if I was in a healthier
place with it, I could say I already feel like
I would need to clarify that I did have water earlier,
which is already dress like it's like a partial little
defensive can.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I think the important part of this is nobody's saying
that you did any any like, nobody's out here being
thinking those things, And so when people aren't thinking those
negative things about you, it's easier to like own that like,
dang it, it's hotter than I thought it was, which
I would have brought forty ounces in of twenty four.
Like nobody's out here saying like she's so dumb and
(23:28):
she shouldn't be able to own a dog because she
can't predict how much water she's gonna nobody's saying that.
So if nobody is attacking my character who I am,
then it's so much easier to be like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yes, like thank you, we would love water. Were almost
of the car, but that would be great. Yeah, I
should have just accepted the water. That's my thing, Like
I should have accept the water we were close to
the car. But the right thing would be to do
to set my feelings aside and give my precious dog
the water. And I mean, thankfully she was fine, Everything
(24:02):
was gonna be okay. I think I built it up
more in my head that I was just this horrible
dog person. And I guess it's the easiest example to give.
I mean, I'm sure there's more like in my relationship,
but I feel like this just is a like a
plug and play. You could insert whatever your situation or
scenario is, and how easily we make it all about us,
(24:22):
or at least I do when it's not. And that
was really my boyfriend's point was you do this often,
and he wasn't. He said it in a loving way.
He wasn't like, oh I know, I said it like
criticism like always, like you always do this. He wasn't
being rude at all. He was just like, hey, like,
(24:43):
are you aware that this is something that you do
a lot? But again, I don't think I'm the type
that's like throwing it back in his face of like,
well I've been working all day. Maybe if you did
a little something around here you would remember or whatever. Well,
you know, I had to bring the dot like I wasn't.
It's my own stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Well, you defend yourself versus turn yourself. You don't.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm not against him. Yeah, you do become yeah, yeah,
I get defensive at times where defensiveness isn't necessary because nobody.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Was well that's most of the time what's happening. Yeah, okay,
unless you start out, because how we talked about, like
if you start with criticism, you're going to dive right
into defensiveness. It just sets you up for that. So
like that's where it's like usually you are responding to
somebody saying something in attacking you, So I need a
new filter. But this is Yeah, so you're assuming that
somebody is criticizing you, but nobody's criticizing you, and so
(25:39):
there's actually no need to defend yourself. But what is helpful,
I think because this is also a pattern probably, So
this is about pattern breaking. So anybody who's listening, give
yourself a break and give yourself some grace because for
you to unwind this, you're going to kind of how
we talked about my tongue thrust last week, Like I
have to pick something in my house to see to
remind myself this, say, hey, where's your tongue sitting? So
(26:01):
I can train my tongue to sit at the roof
of my mouth instead of pushing out my teeth.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
So maybe before I speak, when I know something's happening
before I'm about to respond, I can pause and be like, oh,
what's happening with my response here?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
So, yeah, I have a couple of tips that will
help you, kind of helping the antidotes. Yeah, well, so
the antidote is take responsibility, but just to help, but
to help you get there, I have some tips and
one question to ask because I notice that I get
defensive when I'm feeling overwhelmed or when I'm holding something
in and then kind of ends up being this like
(26:35):
big explosion is like this is not who I am.
I don't hold myself and normally walk around feeling defensivenessness
or defensive throughout the world. So when I do start
noticing that coming out, I can ask myself what is
going on outside of all of this? What is going on?
Because I'm feeling something about me and that's why this
is coming out. So little tips, you ready, so little tips.
(27:13):
Instead of looking at being right, prioritize understanding what your
partner is saying.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Simple.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
We say it simple.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
We say it simple, but like you know, tongue thrust.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Yeah, if you notice wanting to defend yourself, acknowledge that
and take a break. So you talked about pickle.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Oh yeah, well that's yeah. With my ex husband we
have our code word pickle.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
So I think that that's another one of the tips
in here too, is like have a cool down word.
So if you notice yourself like get revving up and
like defending yourself, maybe you have another word instead of
pickle that is like, oh I need to like go
take a little time out for myself because maybe the
other person isn't going back forth.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, just like I need a break, and we'll circle.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Back and then clarify what you hear the person saying.
So how I was talking about the filter. It's so
helpful in any type of conflict.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
That was picturing me to the water person, because yes,
in couples therapy we do this exercise a lot. You're like,
so what I'm hearing you say is and you repeat
it back and then they get to say if what
you repeated back was what they meant. And so I'm
picturing myself to the stranger at the park, like, oh,
you want some water for your dog. So what I'm
hearing you say is you're just offering me water for
(28:28):
my dog. There's no judgment attached to me being a
horrible dog mom. And then they say that is what
I'm saying. Then I say, okay, I could take the water.
So can we practice this with anybody we encounter. So
what I'm hearing you say is you need me to
pay this right now? Yes, ma'am, I just need your
(28:51):
credit card, so okay, So no, I'm just thinking of
like any scenario where you might have to be like, hmm.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Can't you be defensive when you're like checking out it?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're just thinking if you're I don't know, you can
depends on your filter, ma'am. That'll be two hundred and
fifty dollars do right now? Right you know, I don't
know now right now. So what I'm hearing you say
is you need to pay for this right now.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I'm just practicing saying it back.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
You could do that with anything, ye, Or if you're
at the.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Mall and they're like, hey, do you want to, you know,
try this new foundation. So what I'm hearing you say
is you literally just want me to try this foundation.
It has nothing to do with my pimple patches and
my complexion.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So maybe in some of those scenarios you play that
out in your head, but her conversation with your boyfriend,
maybe that's when you share that out.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Loud here at a restaurant and they're like, oh, you
have really good salads. So what I'm hearing you say
is you really just have good salads or you think
I need to eat a salad.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, I mean you could do that if that would
be helpful.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
I'm just saying like, this could get.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Dicey, so I don't recommend you do that. However, if
you do have a feeling that like that come up,
maybe if you're at a restaurant and somebody says that
and you're like, oh my gosh, I feel like they're
judging me, and like now I feel like I have
to get a salad. Process that with a loved one
or therapist.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Okay, yeah, because well that's the filter. Yeah, it's like
they're like, of course we're just selling you we have
good salads. But if you perceive it as they're saying
you can't order anything else off the menu because clearly
you need the salad, then yeah, that's that's your information,
that's your data. Okay, Okay, next, so clarify with your partner.
Clarify with your partner or stranger what they mean.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
And then the last two are just again, own your behavior.
I think that it's hard for us to comprehend that
it's okay to just like own that I did something
without having to give a justification. Sometimes in our brains
it's way more bigger than it is in somebody else's brain, Like, so.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
What does that look like just like okay, like if
you say I did that.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Like if somebody is here, if you're if you're going
to if you're owing somewhere and you're running late, and
your partner's like, hey, we're gonna be late, Like I
really don't want to be late to this event. Can
can we get the show on the road and you
start just listing off all of the things that you've
done that day that have made you late this far.
You can just say like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry
I didn't I didn't manage my time well today. But
(31:17):
like let's just go. I'll finished getting ready in the car.
You don't have to continue to like explain its plansplants,
so just like, oh, you're right, we're behind. Let's go yeah.
Because that person's not attacking your character. They don't need
a justification. They're not really mad at you. They just
want to go yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
And I'm like, you know I have time blindness.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
That you don't have to say that, because that's saying
you know this about me. Oh, that's the subtle shift
of like this is your fault, you know this? Okay.
So like if yeah, if we're running late for something
and somebody's like, hey, like we're running late, and like
we still have to get gas, so we got to go.
If I'm like, you know that I take longer than
I say that I need, this is your fault. You
(31:59):
should have done this. It's what happened me. Have I
been ready thirty minutes ago?
Speaker 1 (32:05):
So that's not the way to handle it. Okay, What
if you just say, oh, yeah, I'm sorry, I know
this is important too. My time blindness was just really
on one today.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah, you can say that, But sometimes I'm just saying
sometimes it's okay to just say like, my bad and
then move on, okay, because we're making a bigger deal
than it probably really is. Yeah, and then the last one,
it's just like it's okay to say sorry, ask for forgiveness,
and move forward. Like it is okay to mess up.
It's okay to have done something wrong. We are going
(32:34):
to do that in all relationships. We're going to disappoint people,
we're going to make mistakes, we're going to forget things,
and it's okay to say like, oh my gosh, I
didn't put that in my calendar. I'm so sorry. What
can we do to fix it?
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Do you feel like with our working relationship, we do
a good job. I guess I'm curious if you notice
me getting defensive with you.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Well, that's what I was trying to think earlier.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
When you're just it with men and strangers.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
I think that you like to explain yourself, probably too
much more than you need to, because I think that
I can. I'm like having memories of experience of being like,
I'm not mad at you, okay, Like this isn't that
big of a deal, but you're just like I just
I think that's why I said, like, you like to
be understood. You hate being misunderstood, which you're saying, so
(33:23):
I get that, but maybe it could be helpful for
us to even check in around like Okay, the story
I'm making up in my head is that you're saying
this so then we can get to a rhythm of
not being having to Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
That would be helpful. And the reason why is because
we obviously have a lot of interaction. Yeah, and if we,
if I have practice with you, it might help me
other places.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
And you have permission. This is like so now an activity,
so like you have permission to be like, Hey.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
What's a word we can say to each other when
we notice each other like sib, it's not IB but
different Like if I if you notice me, or I
notice you getting defensive, what's a word we can say
so we can be like.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Oh oh, we would be like DM defensive much DM
okay okay, SIV if we're acting bachi and then DM
the emphasis with a question mark defensive much defensive much
DM okay. So then we just do a DM check
(34:25):
in love it. Not to be confused with dms and Instagram.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Not to be confused with check your DM right.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Just DM check in and then that way that that
would be helpful because I think the more, like you said,
if it's just become a pattern, it's more difficult to break. Yeah,
and that's what's going on in my case. I honestly
didn't know. That's how I was responding enough to make
my boyfriend of a year finally say to me, you
(34:54):
do this a lot. Ah, most that's crazy. Yeah, let
me ask you this. Do you count the first date
you went on or the day you became boyfriend girlfriend?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
We count the first date? So yeah, you count?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
That's why?
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Correct, everybody, Okay, when do you count? I didn't know
that's why I'm asking. I haven't been in a year
long relationship since I don't know ever. I mean I
was married now I know I was, but we got married,
so then all that changes.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
In college, I had two boyfriends on and off for
a couple of years, but we were on and off,
like we would break up, probably because I oh doin it,
and then we would get back together. Yeah, and then okay,
we would you know what I mean. So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
I think a lot of people count their first date.
I mean when they become boyfriend girlfriend, But I'm like,
uh uh, we communicated and did things and we're like
not dating other people during that time, so I want
to count it.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, I'll count. So coming up October eleventh, that will
be yere or something like that, and then that's the
exact day and.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Then something like that. I haven't really I didn't look
at the calendar. It was a Friday, not like I've
been counting down the days.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
So do be Saturday this year. He was wearing a
blue shirt and I wore pink dress. But something like that.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
But like, I barely remember it.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I don't even remember what I ordered corn bread, well,
I mean order more than that, but no, no, no
pimine cheese.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
We ordered.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
It was a lot of like side plates. I remember
my sister messaging me like, she's like, you have to
order this because she was looking at the corn bread
at the Tapa's menu and she was like telling me
things that she really wanted me to order.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Wait, you know how when you went to Red Pony
and they gave you the free stuff. So then I
went to Red Pony and they gave us something free
because I was her first time there, and I was
telling my friend about it, and she was like, they
gave us that same thing for free too.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
So they used to be their thing.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I think it's their thing that they say that like, oh,
what's your first time in? Like the chef wanted to
do this, but like, honestly, good for them, because unless
we were all sharing that, we would have never known.
And it did make me feel really special.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Oh, we felt really special. And my niece was in
town and we walked past that restaurant and she was like, wait,
is that where y'all went on vacage on vacage And
she's like, I think I listened to that whole episode,
and I was like, the whole one. Why do you
only sometimes listen to half? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
What does she mean by that? I don't know she's
gonna get bored in that one, so listen.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah, hey, if you keep a twenty one, twenty two
year old's attention, that's true for more than thirty minutes.
I think we're thirty seconds. Yeah, eight seconds.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
I derailed you anyway, Your year anniversary's coming up.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, well, I just was curious what y'all thought, because,
like my marriage, we got engaged after three months and
then married three months later, so we weren't even dating
a year before we were married, and then we were
married for seventeen years. So I don't know, you know
what I mean? Yeah, I don't know what. I don't
know what people count, and not that it really matters,
but it's just coming up. So we need to make
a decision what we're going to do to celebrate a year,
(38:03):
and then I need to notify him. Hey, FYI sorry,
According to my girlfriends, we celebrate date one. Not I
think it was like November two that he was like,
let's be exclusive, or he sent me to like check
yes or no or something, so it was like three weeks.
I mean, I think he knew after the first date.
He wanted to say that, but I told him I
(38:24):
was adult dating. So I was still dating other people, right,
But I didn't. I just was going to in case
it popped up. But then that's exhausting to me. I
knew I wasn't an adult dater. I was just going
to try. I just more talked on the phone to
that other guy for a little bit. Still, that was
exchange voice memo. It's probably more so than talked on
the phone.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
But well that's sweet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
So I don't know if it's a universal world, but
if anybody else is in my shoes, you go go
by the first date because it's more fun.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
I would be curious at what other people think, because
some people really do feel strongly about it.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Oh yeah, I wonder if on that date, should we
put on our same clothes and go to that same restaurant.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
You're acting like this is your fifteen year, like you've
been married for fifty years.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Well what if every year on October eleventh we put
on that out go eat at that same restaurant or
that same Remember.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
What we did for our year anniversary? And I have
no idea.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Well, see if we make it a tradition. Then we'll know. Yeah, oh,
I know, and it's only lame until it's not Like
the first year, it might be lame, and then later
it might be like when we're eighty and we're like
walking into the restaurant like they've been doing this every day.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
That actually, okay, I know.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
It's a tradition, lame until it's cute.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, tradition. Now I'm remembering, we went to the same
we went to the same place we went for our
first date. We went because we just got drinks on
our first date. We went to dinner there for our
year university anniversary.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Oh cute. Okay, Well, so maybe we could wear whatever
we want to be honest, but we could go to
that place and just.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Get Honestly, I want you to be seventy five and
wearing the same pink dress. Okay, you can't ever get
rid of that dress. Okay, I won't.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
I can't guarantee to always fit, but I do have
to already wear spinks with it.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Okay, then we'll cut it up and make it into
something else.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah. Ooh, I saw someone that I follow on Instagram
take their mom's wedding dress and cut it up into
a two piece and like they altered it enough to
where it looked similar, but they made it way more
of the time, so it looked very twenty twenty five,
even though it was from early nineties or something. And
(40:32):
they wore it to their rehearsal dinner.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
It was so cute. I mean, she went a two
piece with it.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
She cut it up and made it like a top
and a skirt, like a long skirt with a white top.
I mean, it didn't show her stomach or anything, but
she and then she attached a picture of her mom
wearing the wedding dress. You could see what it looked
like then, and you could tell it still had a
lot of its character and that it was the exact dress.
But she just made it more her style. And it
probably didn't take much work. She took it to an alteration.
(40:59):
I mean she had to dream it up a little bit.
But what a way to repurpose something special.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Do you have your mom's bddy dress?
Speaker 1 (41:06):
No?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
No, I wanted to do that with my mom's but
then I my mom.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Oh it was her second and she only got married.
She was pregnant with my sister.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Okay, the dress, it could still be cool.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
I think, is that why she wore blue? Though? She like,
h I'm not that pure something blue.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Maybe that was her something blue?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, I don't know. That was the whole thing. I
remember when I put that math together and I was like,
wait a second. Christy was born in October and y'all
were married in May.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Did you say that to her? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Was she like?
Speaker 3 (41:40):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Oh? We ended up learning the whole story, like it
was not great, Like my dad was married to somebody else,
my mom was married to somebody else. Then they got
my they got pregnant, but they were going to try
to be together anyway, and then they got together. Yeah.
And then later when my dad left my mom for
somebody else, which classic story, right, what do you expect?
But no, I'm not. I'm just saying that's what society
(42:05):
would say. And my mom, I think, even said, oh, well,
but my mom hadn't done that to him. And then
she that's when we started going to church, and she
really strengthened her relationship with the Lord and she just
felt on her heart like she really wanted to call
her ex husband and ask for forgiveness. And so that's
how I learned about it, and that was modeled to
me of like, this is part of my past and
(42:27):
I own it and I did this and look.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
At your mom a side of the street.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yeah. And so she called her first husband and he's
remarried and moved on. She was like, I have there's
nothing more to this phone call other than what I
did to you wasn't right and I want I wanted
to ask for forgiveness. And so that was really.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Good for her, cool, good example for you to see.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, and now my mom and dad are not here
to defend themselves.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
They don't need to, yeah, because we're not saying anything that.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
About We're not if anything. It's like for me, it's
just like, oh, you know their their lives are just
as messy as a lot of our lives. And as
kids growing up, you can't really imagine that. And then
when you grow up and you learn the details of
how it all happen, you're.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Like, wait, what you weren't perfect? What?
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And I'm rewatching Scandal right now and I'm like, do
you watch that at all? I've never seen Okay, well
this is going to be lost. I did finish the
Better Sister and one out of five stars. What I
really liked that.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
I did not like it, okay, and I don't really
understand it was too much.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, it was a lot. And Scandal is starting to
be a lot like watching it Olivia Hope.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Yes, Okay, she's like the secretary of State or something. No, no, no,
she's she's having she's having an affair with with the president.
She's a pr person, she's a fixer, and she's having
the affair.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Yeah okay, I mean, but it's way messier than that.
But it's almost like she is doing all these things.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Were recapping to show from like, but it's.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Back on Netflix, so a lot of people are rewatching it.
My point in bringing her up in all this, though,
is like she's really likable. Now we're getting into a
season where I'm like not finding her as likable, but
she's doing all this stuff and you're sort of rooting
for their relationship and you're like, wait a second, I
don't feel like I should be rooting for this, but
then you know how awful his marriages and his situation,
(44:23):
so then you're sort of rooting. It's like this love
story is like I don't know, Seanrames, It's like this
really confusing thing where you're like, wait, I don't feel
like I'm supposed to be rooting for this, but I am.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah. I mean I kind of like those kinds of
shows because it shows you that things aren't as black
and white as yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Well, and I think that also some of the stuff
with my mom and dad taught me that of like, oh,
it's not as I don't under I'm never going to
understand someone's full picture, and it's easy to sit on
the sidelines and like judge something. Yeah, without So what
I'm hearing you say is you just want to give
my dog water.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
And that's how we'll wrap it up. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And what we are saying, and we hope you hear
us clearly, is we hope you have the day you.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Need to have. Yeah. I was gonna say, that's not
how we do it. I hope you have. I couldn't
think of the.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Words after saying I said it wrong. What I'm hearing
you say is did I mess it up? No?
Speaker 3 (45:17):
No, no, let me restart. I got confused because I
forgot what I was supposed to say. It was about me.
Let's try it again.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Good on your side of the street, DM, I know
it's just practicing ARC. I'm like also reminding people of
our acronyms DM, defensive much question DM. We need the
tone to be right because like sib.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
DM DM, but you're doing it kind of.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Because it's like if you were to say defensive.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
Much no, but you want it to be kind DM.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
But playful. Oh DM carpai DM. Okay, gotta go getting
delirious by
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
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Amy Brown
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