Ep. 2 of OUTWEIGH: A Series Exposing the 'Grey Area' of Disordered Eating

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Maybe that's Lisa, and we're just two girls that want
to have a conversation with you. Dear sixteen year old Andrea,
Hey gorgeous, Dear younger Lauren. Each episode is stories from people.
I would deprive myself by myself obsessively because I was
eating healthy. I couldn't understand that I had a problem
with food. Losing my period scared me the most. My
story starts when I was around seven. That's when I

(00:24):
started to hate my body. Body image is like our
inner picture of our outer self. Healthy behaviors a much
bigger role at all health than the actual number on
the scales. Internal dialogue can be so powerful and often
it's super negative and critical in a way that we
wouldn't talk to other people that we care about. When
you start to share your story, that gives other people

(00:45):
the courage to share theirs. I know you would be
proud now of how far you have come in your
relationship to food, exercise, and to yourself. I felt freedom,
I've gained relationships. I've found my true sense of self worth.
There's one thing I need you to take away. You're
going to be okay. Life without disordered eating outweighs everything

(01:08):
you're listening to episode two of Outweigh. In this series,
we will be discussing eating disorders. People who have struggled
with eating disorders or disordered eating will be sharing their
story in detail. So please be advised that this content
may not be for everybody right now, especially if you're
currently in the throes of recovery. Our goal is to
make sure that you get the best help necessary for

(01:29):
you or a loved one. This podcast should not replace
therapy or treatment. To get help, support or more resources,
head to National Eating Disorders dot Org. Okay, so we're
gonna start today's episode off with a story that I
shared with Lisa from my life last weekend or so,
and you're like, oh, we should talk about that. So

(01:50):
I went to dinner with my husband and three other
couples and I was there talking to the other wives
that were there at the bar, got a drink and
we were all talking, and then we sat down and
I was still talking, never even looked at the menu.
And I guess some of the guys that had been
there before took it upon themselves to just order everything,

(02:11):
and maybe one of the other wives was involved in
it too, But I was so engaged in some conversation
that I didn't even realize menu ordering was happening. And
old me would have been so hyper focused of what's
on the menu because I need to know what I
can eat because what ingredients are in it? Is it
gluten free to have dairy all the things? But I

(02:31):
was so engaged in my conversation that I kind of
looked over and they're like, oh, yeah, we ordered for everybody.
We're just gonna get a bunch of stuff and share,
like we've been here before, we know what's good. Got
it handled, and I had no freak out moment about it.
In the past, that would have freaked me out because
I had no control of whatever was coming to the table,

(02:51):
and I probably would have done something awkward like oh,
I'm gonna need a menu and I'll just order something
like thanks but no thanks. And I would have been
the one person that ordered my own meal for me
to have. Of course, other people could have it if
they wanted, but it was so freeing to just be like, cool,
I have no idea what's coming, and the food would
just come out and I had no idea what it was,

(03:13):
and I would just eat it because I never saw
the menu so I never saw all the ingredients and
it was awesome and relied on your actual internal body
to dictate do I like this, not should I like this?
Or how good is this for me? Or anything like that,
Like just to get the feedback from your body and
I'll give it a voice, right, and but not at

(03:36):
the same time, because you were just enjoying conversation and
time spent with others. Right. Which is a huge takeaway
that we want people to get from this series is
that when we put a hyper focus on food in
our bodies, we miss out on joy that's all around us.
I call it disordered eating, but I'm usually replacing it

(03:56):
with disordered living. It's not even the food, it's everything
that it bleeds into and that can end up putting
you in a really sad, lonely place. And so that
was a I felt like a the moment for me
where it just kind of now it's I'm starting to
see it organically unfold and take place, just happening, and

(04:17):
you have to like look back and be like, wait,
what did I just do? No, I mean it was
and I was sharing it with you with excitement because
I even said something to my husband almost patting myself
on the back and we got in the car. I
was like, WHOA, did you see? How like cool and chill?
I was about all of that. And it's because I
have that open dialogue with him. I really wasn't. I
didn't need affirmation from him for it, even though that's

(04:40):
my love language. I was hoping he noticed because there
are times where I got so fixated on controlling every
single thing that I was going to eat and that
was in my body that I wasn't eating out at all.
And my husband and I went to the Beach thirty
a down in Florida, Rosemary Beach, cutest little restaurants, and

(05:00):
I was suddenly out and I was going to have
to eat out in a restaurant for the first time
in like a month or something. I think I was
at like that month mark of I controlled everything that
I was eating and it was terrifying. I stared at
the menu forever. It wasn't an enjoyable experience. We were
on a date and my husband was miserable, and I
put us in that place. I would share something to

(05:22):
give some people some peace of mind to One of
the most interesting things about restaurant going is this pretty
universal that people who experienced what you and I have
experienced disordered eating, have a fear of going out to restaurants,
And in my opinion, it's completely unfounded and comes from
the media always talking about how don't go to restaurants,

(05:42):
you lose your control, you don't know how much you
eat big portions, these ingredients, that ingredient, sugar, salt. But
are all the things that you know we were once
told we can't have. But I was talking to my
brother the other day, who is on his own journey
right now, and he started eating quote unquote clean, and
he's like, well, I can't go to restaurants, right And
I'm like, why can't you go to I was like,
first of all, I don't agree with some of the

(06:03):
things that he does, but I'm like, why wouldn't you
go to a restaurant. He's like, because it's a restaurant.
And I'm like, yeah, but why And I was like,
a restaurant just serves real food and he's like what.
And I'm like, a restaurant prepares food fresh, it's fresh ingredients.
Your body knows how to break that down and use
it properly. And he's like, I never thought of that,
because it's a restaurants typically not serving you a processed

(06:25):
food exactly processed. It's not fast food. It's food that's
made with love and fresh ingredients. Most of the time
they're taking time to chop up fresh basil, to do
all these things that actually pack nutrition oftentimes into it.
And when it comes to portions, just to keep that
in mind, like someone arbitrarily wants through into a magazine
like be be wary of restaurant portions. They're so big.
I've been in plenty of situations where the portion size

(06:47):
was too small for me, and so always take like
common during your own ability to dictate how much you
eat in a restaurant setting and not falling prey to
the lie of portions are too big, which doesn't make
any sense. We all have different needs, we all different bodies.
It changes day today. Know that you have the wisdom
and the ability to go out to dinner and use
your body as a tool to send feedback back and

(07:08):
know that the food is not necessarily dooming your efforts
or whatever, you know. Just to give people some freedom
to kind of double think or question the things that
they've been told that they shouldn't do for their health.
Thank you for doing that, because that was a lot
of why I struggled with eating out and why you know,
the other night, it was such a huge milestone for
me of now I'm like, oh, and it is. If

(07:30):
you feel trapped in where I once was, I just
I my prayer for you is that you have the
freedom soon. And that was the whole when I called
Lisa wanting to start this little series, I was like,
I just I want people to feel free. And even
I'm still on my journey, I'm still celebrating those milestones
of quote unquote freedom from these shackles I feel like

(07:52):
I've been in for years. I would say there's like
different shackles that are all relating kind of the same thing.
But I had a freedom the other night. And I
think for my husband that was really cool because he
has been to place with me, like when we were
at the beach, where I have not been that cool
to be around at all. I've brought a protein bar
to a restaurant before, I brought my own food to
a restaurant before, and then that's what you ate. Yeah,

(08:16):
I've taken my own juice like everybody else was eating
and I drank a juice because I was on a
cleanse or something. We knew we were going to talk
about this topic a little bit, so I just texted
my friend Mary last minute to see if she would
join us, because she said something the other day to
me that hit me and I wanted to say it again.

(08:37):
I want you all to hear it from her, so
you know I'm not like making it up or anything.
And also she wasn't meaning to call me out. She
wasn't like she was expressing like genuine excitement about where
I am with food now and how that was going
to be cool because we had a trip coming up
to Austin. And you'll hear what she's going to say
in a minute, but I'll just say the reason why
I wanted to come on and say it is because

(08:58):
it's something I sat with. She probably just said it
as like something fun and exciting, but it hit me.
It's like, oh my gosh, like I was that person
and Mary didn't mean any harm by it at all.
But I immediately knew that I was sucking the joy
from other people around me when they were hanging out
with me because and I was being selfish of like, well,

(09:19):
this is my favorite juice place. So this is where
we're gonna go, and this is all we're gonna have
to eat, and you're not going to get to experience
the town you're visiting, because they have the best green
juice here, and they have the best smoothie or salad here,
like this is what we're consuming. And you'll hear in
just a second when we get her on what she said,
and then I have some thoughts after that. So I

(09:39):
think she's on the phone right now. So Mary, Hey, okay,
so thank you for coming on. I want you to
just tell people exactly what you said to me the
other day when we realized that we were going to
be in Austin together with my newfound food freedom. Okay,
I was just excited to be able to go out
to fun restaurant and just try a bunch of the

(10:02):
awesome food in Austin that we haven't been able to
do in the past. I guess or we didn't do
in the past, right, because we've been in Austin together
multiple times and I typically did what well. I do
feel like maybe the last time it was a little better,
but yeah, especially like the first time, I think we're
there for a week, and I think we went to
the Juice Land place. I just remember I got home

(10:22):
and all my friends were like, oh, where'd you going
to eat? Whatever? And I was like, oh, like racking
my brain, and I'm like Juice Land, and I think
we went the Whole Food salad Our one. You were
like in your work mode a lot, and I didn't
like think that much of it. I don't know, but yeah,
I mean I'm definitely excited to go and even just
like going out to eat, like for the social like

(10:42):
the community of it and like conversations and all of that,
and like trying new things is what. I don't want
to make you feel bad. Oh and you didn't like
not something I like think about all the time. No,
and you didn't. But it just was like when you
said it if for me it was just something I'm
glad you said because it had me reflect on, Oh wow,
my actions are how I was trying to put myself

(11:06):
in a box meant that I was putting everybody else
around me in a box. I mean you were just
being a nice bread and be like okay, fine, yeah,
I guess we'll go to the Juice place or I
guess we'll go to whole foods or we'll just do
whatever so that Amy can eat inside her contains safe
space of this box I was putting myself in. And yeah,
it did cause me to miss out on social experiences

(11:28):
and connecting and you know, conversations that can end up
having around the table if you're just relaxed around food.
And for me it was just never a relaxing thing
until recently. Yeah, it was just more rigid I think before. Yeah,
well that's all. I just wanted you to come on
so that people knew it was a real like that
it was a real comment and that you said it

(11:49):
and that it's that Okay, I don't want to make
you feel bad because I feel like I'm proud of
you and like I think, and I'm excited to like
it's this new freedom. Yeah, I know, can't wait to
see you again. And so we can just go out
to eat and have community and I and Lisa can come. Yeah,
I'll have my I met Mary on Twitter and Lisa

(12:09):
on Instagram. And later on in the episode, we're actually
going to have a girl Brenna on. We're gonna get
into social media and body image and all of that,
so that will also be in today's episode speaking of
how I met Mary, and people are like, really, y'all
met on Twitter. I'm like, yeah, and you never know
who you're gonna meet. So okay, well, thank you for

(12:31):
coming on and I hope you have a good rest
of your day. Yeah you guys too. Okay, bye bye. Okay.
So yeah, after Mary told me that, and I was
telling you this, Lisa, like for days, I thought, how
was I that person? And that is just not cool?
And so again another freedom bell of like yes, when
I am taking trips with girlfriends or they're in my

(12:55):
city and they want to experience something, I now can
go do that with them. And and I think you've
taken time to say, like what brings Amy happiness? What
does Amy value? And you've begun that self work of
getting to know what you value. And it sounds like
you value your friendships or experiences or adventure even more

(13:19):
than you value having a green juice by yourself for
forcing them to go there. But for so long the
lie I had a false sense of my values or
you just never we we don't take time to assess
our values. Nobody says, hey, check in with yourself or
do your behaviors match up for the things that you value,
because it's only when we live in line aligned with

(13:41):
our values do we find some happiness. And oftentimes the
things that we think will bring us happiness, such as
being thin or even making money, are actually not the
things that we value the most, yet we're prioritizing them
because that's what society has either told us to do
or told us that we have to do to belong.
Will wrap today's episode. Towards the end, we'll touch on

(14:03):
values again, and then even the homework from today's episode
will be tied to values. Yours. You getting to know
your value? You not not me? Me and you everybody listening. Yeah,
I thought you pointed at me when you said it,
and I'm like, no, you your value. I'm pointing to
the microphone. You guys in there listening. Yeah, But I'm

(14:24):
really wanting to paint the picture for the type of
person I was like, and family is something that I
know that I value. On that note, I think it's
important to always be thinking about who you once were
versus who you are now, and our values often reflect
that because we might be told when we're younger that
we value one thing when we grow up and we

(14:45):
see the world and we learn that we value other things.
So taking time to actually assess allows us to reflect
who we once were versus who we are now, and
how we can choose behaviors that encourage us to be
our best selves. So I think now it actually be
the perfect time, Amy if you shared your personal story
and your letter to your younger self. Okay, I can

(15:07):
do that. I can't pinpoint an exact moment that I
started to not like my body, but at age sixteen,
that's when the binging and purging started and the constant
comparison of my body to other girls. I do know
that a few years before that, I was exposed to
dieting and learned what fat free foods were. It was
the nineties, so think snack wells and spray butter. I
became obsessed with fat free anything and everything, even marshmallows,

(15:30):
because they were well fat free, so they totally fit
my criteria for a meal. I had no knowledge of
actual nutrients or any other parts of a food label.
I would just check and see if it said zero
grams of fat and I was good to go. This
wasn't sustainable and caused a lot of restriction. Living that
way eventually led me to binging on foods that I
didn't allow myself to have and then feeling awful, so

(15:52):
I had to find a way to get rid of it. Also,
around the age of sixteen, I started working out a lot.
I was very obsessed with step class. I would run
in my neighborhood all the time, full on, carrying my
CD displayer. Again it was the nineties. I would do
my mom's Jane Fonda VHS tape if I couldn't make
it to the gym or it was raining, And for
some reason that blows my mind today. I was introduced

(16:14):
to energy pills at a particular gym that I went to.
I was a kid and an adult was selling me
pills that were basically uppers and curbed my appetite. Between
the restriction of foods and the binging and purging and
the diet pills, I started to lose weight temporarily and
it felt good. That is, if you think that fat
free yogurt with fat free cereal mixed in for lunch

(16:35):
every day at school sounds appetizing. Yep, That's what I
took for lunch. I'd sometimes have an apple with it.
That I would eat with the spoon so that it
took me longer to finish, and I'd always have a
diet coke. The temporary weight loss felt good. That is,
if I could resist the bad foods at my dad's house,
where all of my binges took place. Even with pills

(16:55):
that curbed my appetite, I literally could not resist all
the stuff he kept in his How that I didn't
allow my mom's house ice cream, sandwiches, chips, nutterbetters, to
name a few. The temporary weight loss felt good. That is,
if you think making yourself throw up this is awesome.
I mean, if it was an effortless purge, then yeah,
there was this high associated with that feeling that you

(17:16):
just got rid of all the food and your stomach
is so flat and life is good again. But the
majority of purges were exhausting, frustrating, and just flat out awful.
So many times I thought my eyeballs were going to
pop out of my head, and my brain was going
to explode, and my heart was going to stop, and
I was going to die right there by the toilet,
and this is how people would find me. Those thoughts
would literally go through my mind as I was doing it,

(17:39):
but that didn't stop me. I kept right on with it.
The temporary weight loss felt good, that is, if you
don't count the days that I was out of my
diet pills and my mom couldn't even drag me from
my bed to go to school because I didn't think
I could face the day without my magic capsules. I
would cry to my mom from bed, begging her not
to make me go to school that day. She of
course had no ideas because I was out of my

(18:00):
pills towards the end of high school. Into my college years,
I tried so many diets that shall remain nameless, continuing
my restrict binge and purge and work out way too
much behaviors into early adulthood. My super long gym sessions
in college always ended with me sitting in the sauna
with saran wrap on my stomach. I would drink slim
Fast for most meals, but those around my good days.

(18:21):
On a bad day, I couldn't resist stopping at multiple
fast food places, or if I got Girl Scout cookies,
I had to eat the whole box. But somehow, around
the age of twenty two or so, I decided no
more purging. While in the form of throwing up. I
was still purging by working out and not sure how
I stopped throwing up, but I did. I think I
was really convinced that it would kill me, and I

(18:43):
also didn't like how puffy it made my face. I
thought that eliminating that part from my routine would solve
all the problems, but my obsession with food and diets
and working out continued, always trying some new plan that
was finally going to be the thing to transform my body,
transform into what. I'm not quite sure, but that was
always my goal. Over the many, many years of this,

(19:03):
I would miss out on family meals or nights out
with friends because the foods didn't fit whatever plan I
was on at the time. If I did happen to
show up, I was zero fun because I would bring
my own food or just not eat at all and
sit in judgment of my family eating whatever my dad
or my mom made, like I can't believe they're eating that.
Looking back, I was just jealous. I can't get those

(19:23):
moments back. My mom passed away almost six years ago,
and my dad can no longer cook given his health conditions,
so literally it's too late for me to enjoy their
cooking and speaking of my mom's passing, it was literally
the day after she died that my throwing up returned
after almost a decade. Our brains are complex, so again,
not sure why that traumatic experience brought it back, but

(19:44):
it did, and we dive into more of that during
a segment that Lisa and I recorded with therapist Catherine
to Fata. I'm going to attach that at the end
of this episode in case you missed it. It's a
deeper look into my story, which a lot of our
stories are incredibly long battle that take much more than
the time in this podcast. So for the sake of
time and the story I'm sharing right now, I want

(20:06):
to tell you about a book that I read a
little over a year ago. It's called Brain over Binge.
And after I read it and put some of the
things into practice, like stopping any and all diets immediately
and rewiring my brain literally walking away from binges, telling
my brain that it will get food again, I was
able to stop binging and purging and my obsession with food,

(20:27):
an obsession that I created for myself way back when
my first fat free diet began as a kid, and
my brain wasn't fully developed. The theory in this book
won't help everyone, but it helped me, so I want
to share it. Lisa, and I believe that every person's
journey and recovery is different. But for me, Brain over
Binge resonated with me more than any therapist that I

(20:47):
went to form my teenage years into my thirties that
told me that my food issues stemmed from trauma surrounding
my dad leaving my mom when I was nine years old.
So here's what Brain over Binge taught me. I am
not diseased or wald. My brain is healthy. I don't
have an inability to cope. I have power over binge urges.

(21:07):
I can in bolimia and binge eating disorder without a
major personal transformation, and I'm happy to say that I
was able to do that. The bolimia and binging they've ended.
I'm still on a journey though, just like many of you,
but I'm thankful to know that I'm not alone. Dear
teenage Amie, you'll learn at age thirty nine during a

(21:27):
therapy session that everyone has screens that they filter things
through during their life. Each person's filter depends on their
experiences your childhood had some traumas that caused insecurities that
caused you to question your worth. Then you were fed
a lie that you're worth was in what you ate
and what size you were controlling. That was the key
to happiness. Again, another lie. Have compassion for yourself. You

(21:51):
didn't know better for years and years. You will put
everything through your screen that will cause priorities to be
all wrong and relationships to suffer. But there is hope,
a true desire for things to change for the better,
and they will if you put in the work, and
you'll be able to use your story for good so
that others don't feel alone. Now that we heard Amy's

(22:13):
amazing story and let her to herself, we thought the
perfect transition could be to hear from Karen Nunzig, who
is a registered dietitian that works specifically with eating disorders.
And we are going to learn a little bit more
about binging since that was such a theme in Amy's
life for a long time, and really learn what a

(22:34):
binge is and what we can do to better cope
with them or perhaps end them from happening. So here
is our talk with Karen. Today, we are welcoming a
special guest to the show. Her name is Karen Nunzig
and she has a registered dietitian who works with eating disorders. Welcome, Karen, Hi,
so happy to be here. We are so happy to
have you. So what makes you super unique is we

(22:56):
have all spoken to a therapist that works with eating
disorders and disordered eating, and you are a registered dietitian
who works with eating disorders and disordered eating as well. Right, Yeah,
that's right. So I feel like the best place to
start is if somebody thinks that they might have disordered
eating or eating disorder, should they seek a dietitian or
a therapist or is there something else they should do

(23:17):
as a first step they should seek out both. The
treatment process really takes. It takes a village, you know,
and I think people most often start with therapy and
then the therapist realizes, wow, we're talking about food a
whole lot, and maybe I don't know how to direct
some of these questions. And that's where the dietitian comes in.

(23:38):
And so if someone's struggling with an eating disorder, disordered eating,
they typically have a full team. So that would look
like a therapist and a dietitian, maybe a doctor, maybe
a psychiatrist kind of depending on what they need, and
then the dietitian and the therapist work together, right, so
the therapist will have information for the dietitian, the dietitian

(23:59):
will have the nation for the therapist, so kind of
work on it as a team. And it's really overlapping,
you know, So therapists will if you're working with someone
with eating issues, of course, food is going to come up.
And if you're a dietitian working with someone that has
eating disorder disordered eating, of course, emotions are going to

(24:19):
come up and feelings are going to come up. So
there's a lot of overlap, but it's really important to have,
you know, to kind of tackle it from both angles
because they're so intertwined, the emotions and then the actual
food and eating. When I think back to my days
with disordered eating orthorex, yeah, I would argue that I
knew too much about food. How does a registered dietitian

(24:40):
assist with somebody who knows too much about food? What
sort of tools can they bring to the table. So
that kind of reminds me of one of the hallmark
defining points of what disordered eating is, and it's when
you're looking at external cues versus internal ones. So external cues,

(25:01):
for example, would be avoiding gluten because you saw a
blog post claiming that it was poison right, versus like
avoiding gluten because you noticed that it's giving you stomach aches.
So you can have all the nutrition knowledge in the world,
but if you're not aware of what's going on in
your own body, none of it matters, like it doesn't

(25:23):
apply to you. So it makes it really hard when
you're like so obsessed with all the external cues. Because
I mean understandably, so this society live in it's all
you here. It gets really hard to go inward and
to listen to your body and to use your body's
wisdom rather than some wisdom that someone else is giving you,

(25:47):
or that you're getting from another place that isn't related
to you or what you're going through. Something literally just
popped into my head, and so I want to say it,
so I don't forget to ever say it in this
entire series. But I got so messed up with if
something was gluten free or had it on the package
or packaging like, or ingredients like, and I thought I

(26:07):
knew what ingredients were good for me or whatever. But
because I was trying to like be in such a box,
like I would opt for some sort of bar that
I saw that fit my criteria, and I would, But
I would never eat a banana because it was too
much sugar or because it didn't fit in my criteris
so I would eat some processed engineer product that just

(26:29):
because it fit into my box. I'm struggling for words too,
because Karen, I am. I'm in this right now. I'm
trying to get out of it, and I don't want
to use like the wrong language to like throw anybody
off that's listening. But nutritious, it's a nutritious food. I
was gonna say it's like a good food or a
healthy food, but like I'm really struggling with like me
separating or stopping the use of foods being good and

(26:50):
foods being bad. But I know that a banana is
freaking nutritious. But I wouldn't grab for something like a
banana or an apple or blueberries because of the sugar content.
But I would grab for something else on a shelf
just because it said it was gluten free. Like that's
how messed up my thinking was. And I get that
the banana and whatever is gluten free. I'm just giving

(27:11):
you like extreme examples of like I would stay away
from foods that are grown from the earth. I think
you bring up such a point that's going to resonate
with a lot of listeners. And part of your story
that you've mentioned is some macro counting. And one of
the things I found most fascinating about macro counting from
people that said, oh, this is freedom is the fact
that they would reach for food when they weren't hungry

(27:35):
to reach their macro nutrient markers. So, oh, I need
twenty more grams of protein, I'll go get this bar
that has twenty grams of protein and completely ignoring the
fact that the body could be wise even like that
general idea of it. So, Karen, a lot of people
will say, or I've heard people overuse or use the

(27:56):
word binge. What classifies a binge? I love this question.
One of it's from you asked that because one of
my pet peeves is when people say, like, oh, it
felt binge, that word binge. I'm like, you know, what
do you what does that mean? What do you really
trying to say when you say something felt binge? So
I guess we can start by defining, like what a

(28:17):
binge is. Binges look different for everyone, but a typical
binge would look like eating a very large quantity of food,
So like, objectively speaking, a very large quantity of food
in a short period of time. It is often done
at a very rapid pace, usually done in secret, and
usually done with feelings of guilt and shame and you know, no,

(28:42):
you know, no awareness of hunger and fullness, just kind
of it's a tool. It's usually a tool to numb
or cope with something. It can There's different types of binges,
you know, some can be emotional, some can be a
byproduct of restriction of just being really really hungry and
kind of losing control. By when people say it feel
something feels binging, what they're really saying is that they

(29:03):
feel a loss of control around food. And that again
can happen for a lot of reasons. So one of
the most typical reasons we see that is because people
try to be really restrictive and rigid with their food
and it doesn't work, and then they end up, you know,
kind of just giving up and losing all sense of

(29:25):
control with food. So swinging from like one end of
the spectrum to the other. And when you think about
disordered eating, I kind of or eating disorders, I kind
of envision it as a spectrum, right, So on one
end you have more of the symptoms of over controls,
so more that's on the very extreme end of that

(29:45):
spectrum would be anorexia, things like over exercise or dieting,
things like that would be on that end of the spectrum.
And then the other end of the spectrum is more
of the under control, so more of the binging, the
compulsive overeating, emotional eating, things like that, and then normal
eating kind of falls somewhere in the middle, right that
neutral ground, the healthy what kind of what everyone is

(30:07):
going for. The more often everyone exists along the spectrum,
you know, you'll have days no one's stagnant, kind of
all over the place. But the more often you push
yourself to one extreme, what we typically see is people
swing even farther into the other extreme. So kind of
like the band restrict cycle. And so yeah, we're kind

(30:30):
of trying ideally to look at you know, people are
really worried about binging, but not really looking at the
restriction that may be causing it. And sometimes it looks
like going on a diet and then having a cheat
day every weekend or whatever. It can look a lot
of different ways, but I'm so glad thinking of it
on the spectrum, I'm so glad that you said that
because I experienced. I never purged, but I had a season.

(30:50):
I don't mean like literally a season, but a season
of my life where binging was a big part of it.
But I was eating, I know, because I'm a nutritionist,
and I had calorical awareness that I was eating enough
or what I thought was enough. And I remember telling
my therapist, you know, I'm binging, and she said, could
it be related to restriction, And thinking back now to it,

(31:11):
it was. It wasn't total calories, which I often see
with my own clients results in a binge later in
the day. That's a very common theme. But for me,
it was actually I was eating enough calories, but I
was still restrictive with what I would eat and it's
still resulted in a binge, which brings me kind of
to my second question is, in your opinion, does it
have to be the typical Oreos Dorrito's cheetos to be

(31:35):
a binge? No, definitely not. What I see most often
is people will binge on the things that they restrict,
So oftentimes people will not allow themselves to eat those
foods that they label as bad. So, you know, whatever
they may be, and those are the exact foods that
they're binging on. So it doesn't really and everyone has

(31:56):
their different fear foods, right, Maybe for some people it's carbs,
maybe for some people oldstats. Maybe for some people it's banana's.
Like what, it doesn't really matter what it is. It's
the thing that you're restricting. Is a thing that's gonna
have that little glitter you know, in your eye when
you look at it. It's that thing that's going to
be up on the pedestal. It's that thing that's going
to have the power. So it can be it's typically

(32:17):
the thing that you're restricting is the thing that you're
binging on. And yeah, it doesn't have to be caloric,
like restricting can look like denying yourself foods that you
enjoy eating, even if you are getting enough calories of nutrition.
Like Lisa and I were having this conversation, I think,
just on maybe FaceTime the other day about if you're
outer wisdom and knowing like what foods are nutritious for you,

(32:41):
and I don't know when you're working with someone as
their dietitian, like are there ever times and Lisa, you
said this that a client might need to go eat
whatever they've been restricting from their life and just eat that,
like if it's for me donuts all day or Chick
fil A, Like I know that that's not going to
make me feel good, but because I've restricted it, Like

(33:03):
if I were to go through Chick fil A, which
I love Chick fil A, shout out waffle fries like
they're amazing, but there was a time where I couldn't
have that without my whole day being completely derailed. So
I would get Chick fil A and then that would mean, Okay,
that was my bad lunch, Like I need to plan
some bad snacks between now and my bad dinner because
this is my bad day because I've gone done and

(33:25):
blown it, instead of if I were to just let
myself eat the Chick fil A and they're like, yeahn
that was amazing, moving on with my day. Can't wait
till I'm hungry again. Don't know when that is, but
I'm just gonna roll with it, Like I would just
go into that and so sorry, I'm struggling with, like
how I want to say this, but I think Lisa
and I were saying it the other day, like I
know that vegetables and fruit and lean proteins or whatever,

(33:49):
that looks like it's gonna be something nutritious for my
body and that it needs. But I don't want to
restrict myself from having the Chick fil A if I
want to. But if you give yourself that freedom, radical permission,
your radical permission, like I can have Chick fil A
any day that I want to. Therefore, somehow I'm my
brain like I'm giving it that permission, and all of

(34:10):
a sudden it's less desirable. But sometimes to maybe teach
ourselves of how food makes us feel. If I need
to go have Chick fil A seven days in a row,
or donuts like for every meal five days a week,
like I'll kind of learn naturally. I don't know, is
that ever prescription to like tell someone give yourself that
permission to have it every single day, and then you'll

(34:32):
see like you have freedom from it absolutely, because when
you give yourself that permission, you free up a lot
of brain space. You have all of a sudden time
to go inward and to realize, oh, I actually don't
feel so great when I'm eating x y Z. But
if all you're thinking about is eating x y Z,

(34:52):
you can't go that next step. You can't you can't
go inward and feel what you're feeling. You're too clouded
by being xiety or the judgment or the guilt. And
so it makes it really hard to make food choices
that feel good, both mentally and physically, because it's really
hard to feel what's going on in your body if

(35:13):
you're so in your head. By dropping all of that,
which is again like the hard part, then then you're
finally able to really listen to your body and listen
to what it's asking for. And that's when the freedom
kind of starts, because most likely won't ask for a
doughnut every meal because that's not going to sustain us.

(35:36):
And so I think Lisa was even saying when I
was talking to about it, She's like, yeah, sometimes I
maybe have had to tell people, go ahead, eat donuts
every day, see how you feel, and then that might
help fix the problem. And I only learned this myself
by giving myself permission, you know, on the weekends, which
used to be you know this this time where it
was this constant guilt because I wanted things and didn't
and then I'd let myself have it, and then I'd

(35:58):
go into Monday with you know, a new set of rules.
When I started to listen to my body that I
found on Monday, I was craving. This body that I
thought was unruly was actually asking me for a salad.
I didn't have to have a salad, but I wanted
a salad. But I could also have a salad with
bread now because I recognized that bread is allowed at
all times, and by allowing myself to have a piece
of bread now, I didn't binge, you know, at other times.

(36:19):
But one thing I just want to say before I
ask you a second question that goes into both of
what Amy and I experienced this. I used to binge
on quote unquote healthy foods, foods that I were allowed.
I am not the girl that reached for Dorito's oreos
Chick fil A. I show I loved healthy food so
much that you know, I remember I used to laugh
because I'd by the party size container of hummus, which

(36:42):
was like a jar. I don't even know how to
explain that size big last most people weeks or months,
you know, and I'd come home and eat the entire
thing of hummus. So I know that Amy and I
we have a friend who had recently told us that
she've beene eats on carrots. So it's like, I just
want to say that any food could fall within Yeah,

(37:02):
I think I think right here. And you had said,
like a lot of times, it's what you restrict that
you end up binging on. And while I totally think
that's the case, but what about people too, that you know,
eat an entire sleeve of rice cakes. They're not doing
it because the like I personally do actually enjoy a
rice cake, but I gotta put some nut butter and
honey on it, like that's that's awesome to me. I
don't think that rice cakes are bad, but there's no way,

(37:25):
because I have been there, and I've had to tell myself,
there's no way that an entire sleeve of rice cakes
is amazing. And what my body was craving, I was
just in a binge and mindlessly just not to say
that that's too much food, but to say that that
might not that you needed sustenance. Maybe you needed a
full meal, not the entire sleeve of rice cakes. Well,
I mean, I don't even know how many you're in there,
but I can tell you that's like and that wasn't

(37:46):
all I was consuming, by the way, it was like,
that was that and until I went into the pantry
to reach for something else. What about when we're just binging,
but it's not the food we've been restricting, But it's
probably happening because we restricted. I just wanted to highlight
that there's many types of binges that but regardless, what
can someone do after a binge to cope in a

(38:07):
healthful manner? It depends on a lot, Right, Like, when
we talk about people's relationship with food, we're talking about
much more than what they're eating. We're talking about how
they're eating, the thoughts surrounding the food, exercise, the body image,
the intentions, and you know, taking a deeper look at
why the bench happened, why they're doing what they're doing,
Because at the end of the day, food is more

(38:28):
than just food, right, every behavior, these certain things that
we do with food, they it serves of function. You know,
it can be used as a tool for soothing or
a coping mechanism, or can you know, use food to
change your appearance in order to feel accepted, or can
be used as a form of communication of control, the

(38:48):
way to identify yourself. Like the list goes on as
like the different functions that these certain behaviors play, they
do something for someone. So yeah, it may just be
that you are starving yourself and so bench happened, but
it may also be a laundry list of other things.
So what I would say is, after a binge or

(39:09):
after any behavior used, right, take a minute to sit
back and ask yourself, like what the hell was that about?
Like why did that happen? And maybe go back, try
to put the pieces together, like what let up to
this moment? Where did it begin? Where? What where did
I get off track? So really going deeper and recognizing
that it's probably not about the food, to be honest,

(39:32):
there may be something else going on, and um, maybe
the place to do that is in your therapist office
or with a friend or a loan, in your journal,
like writing out whatever works for you. But I think
the first step would be to just kind of go
inward and ask yourself, like what happened? What happened there?
And like doing it without judgment, without shame, like you know,

(39:53):
not beating yourself up because you did whatever it was,
like just trying to look at it in a compassionate
way and understanding what led to it. So that way,
maybe next time you feel that trigger, you are able
to do something a little bit differently that is actually
helping you, you know, instead of masking whatever it is.
For people that are curious if they're eating patterns are

(40:16):
normal or maybe feel a bit disordered, no one can
tell you if something is disordered or not. Just by
looking at the behavior itself and judging by the behaviors
alone isn't enough. It really comes down to what's going
on inside. So the thoughts, the urges, beliefs, intentions, um
that lead to certain choices or behaviors, which it's really

(40:37):
hard to you know, I can't tell you that. It's
really only yourself that can tell you if something feels off.
So taking a deep dive inward versus reacting and grabbing
for more food rules would be a much more helpful
sustainable solution to make change. Yeah. Absolutely, So what about
the phrase food is medicine and what extent do you

(40:57):
do you believe that that's true? And like the right
way of eating versus like a wrong way. Can you
just touch on that, especially as a dietitian, It's a
really interesting combination. Yeah, food is medicine, absolutely, It depends
what it is that needs healing, is how you're going
to use it. If you're struggling with the chronic disease,

(41:22):
fruit can be a really powerful tool in mediating that
and taking care of your physical body. What I specialize
in is more people that are struggling with the mental
portion of health and using food as medicine in that
respect can be really powerful, just as powerful as it
can be in healing the physical body. And the ways
that we do that is by neutralizing food. So instead

(41:46):
of looking at foods is good versus bad, just kind
of making them all, you know, all foods equal, all
foods can fit, type of looking at it through that lens,
kind of taking the power away from food. Food is
not just food, but shouldn't be a source of anxiety
or distress, you know, it shouldn't be rigid or rule based,

(42:06):
or source of guilt. I love how you're codes saying
that food is medicine. Is this phrase that can kind
of take people down the road of orthorexia. But what
you're saying is not is all? Food is medicine as
long as you're using it in a way that protects
your mental health. So I'm just going to use a
typical food here. You know, an oreo food can be
medicine if that oreo is being shared with your grandmother

(42:29):
who you don't have much time with, or something, you know,
if you're if you're creating a special moment with somebody
to connect, that food can be medicine for the soul.
Food for the soul. It's refreshing to hear that. Actually, yeah, no,
and important, and I think an important thing for a
lot of people to hear. I can't think of how
many times I missed out on eating something special with
I mean, my dad has a feeding tube right now

(42:52):
and food was his love language and so I'll mentioned
that a million times during this series. But is how
he showed love and love to share new recipes and
cook things for us. And now the last almost two years,
ever since a cancer surgery, he's had a feeding tube
and he can't eat, and he had a stroke so
his hands don't really work, so he can't cook like

(43:13):
he used to. I'm just like, oh bummer, like I
hang out with him now, and I'm like, Dad, I've
even said to him as m in this process of healing,
like Dad, I'm so sorry. Like I was such a
party pooper. I mean, how did you even hang out
with me? Because I would show up with my own
stuff or I wouldn't eat it, or worse, I would
make him feel bad about what he was cooking for us,

(43:37):
and what a high horse I was on and just
how I literally call it my healthy eating high horse. Yes,
Like I want to go back and just kick myself
and be like, wake up, stupid, or I want to
go back and hug yourself because we're looking at it.
I'm gonna give myself grace because I didn't know any better.

(44:00):
But gosh, it's just I know there's probably a lot
of people in the same way. But you know, it's
not too late. We still have a lot ahead of us,
at least I do in life. I hope. And maybe
my dad will eat one day soon. That's the goal.
We're trying to get him healthy. And I'll be like, Debt,
what do you want to cook and I'm gonna eat
it all? Or what do you want me to cook
for us? And let's eat it together because that will

(44:20):
be nourishing it to my mental health. Right. Yeah, it
can be such a powerful healing tool if you're using
it the right way, and it can also it can
be such a form of distress. It has so there's
so much power that we put in food. It really
has potential to go so many different ways. It's really

(44:42):
up to us how we how we decide to use it. Okay, well,
thank you, Karen. We appreciate you coming on so much
and sharing your wisdom with us. You can go follow
Karen at Care for Yourself and that's Care with a
k OH. I like that. Thanks for having me so.
Part of this series is hearing personal stories from real people,

(45:02):
and I shared mine earlier in the episode. Lisa shared
her as in the first episode along with a few
other girls. So if you happen to be just now
listening and you're like, oh wait, there's another episode, Yeah,
go back to last week and check that out. But
for now, I want to get into Lauren's story and
her letter to herself. So here's Lauren. Dear younger Lauren,

(45:23):
I'm sorry for being so critical and judgmental of your thoughts, actions,
and physical attributes. I'm sorry for forcing you to chase
and cling to a one dimensional notion of perfection that
led you to missing out on experiencing joy. I'm sorry
you thought you didn't deserve happiness. If I could change
one thing about that time, it would be nicer to myself,

(45:43):
more forgiving and gentle. I can see clearly now that
you just needed to hug a friend and a little kindness.
I'm proud of you for excelling in school and being
there for your family during that time of internal chaos.
I know you would be proud now of how far
you have come in your relationship to food, exercise, and
to yourself. My name is Lauren. I started to become

(46:06):
aware and self conscious of weight in elementary school around puberty.
My first attempt at weight loss was in the fourth grade,
when I convinced my mom to send me to an
attritionist to lose weight lots of rice cakes, which by
the way, I do enjoy to this day. Things got
worse in high school when the only food groups I
would eat were vegetables, a lean protein, and diet coke.

(46:27):
In high school, I also exercised and counted calories obsessively
and experimented with laxatives, diet pills, and diuretics. I was
depressed and lonely in high school. My parents fought a
lot at home, and my obsession with food and exercise
gave me a purpose and sense of control. It gave
me an identity and schedule. I missed out on social events,
eating my Grandma's delicious food on holidays, and a whole

(46:50):
lot more. I also lost my hair and my period.
Losing my period scared me the most, and that's when
I knew something had to change. I wasn't sure what
or how it had to. If I had to describe
my life in one word during this time, at my
most restrictive and consumed, it would be small. Deep down,
I knew I didn't want to live my life small.

(47:10):
I wanted to take up space and soak up experiences,
both food related and non food related. My relationship to
food and exercise started to shift a bit in college.
In the beginning of college, I would say went to
the opposite end of the spectrum and ate all of
the food I had missed out on for years to
the point of uncomfortable fullness, and renounced exercise altogether. Once

(47:32):
the novelty wore off, of eating all these foods I
hadn't eaten for years, my relationship to food became a
little bit less dramatic, and I started to exercise once
in a while. I stopped counting calories, but still viewed
certain foods and food groups as good or bad. Post college,
I still hopped on fad diets and counted calories when
I fell out of control, but not to the extreme

(47:54):
that I did in high school. It is only within
the last few years, well into my thirties, that my
relationship of food and exercise has become the healthiest it's
ever been my whole life. I spent so much energy,
time and missed out on relationships and social events because
of my preoccupation with food, exercise and looking a certain way.
What it really comes down to is I don't want

(48:14):
to miss out anymore. Life is too short. And when
I really break down that thought process, if someone were
to judge me based on how I look, I don't
need or want them in my life anyway. I don't
judge other people that way. Why would I judge myself
so harshly. That's not to say that old thought patterns
do not creep up. Regarding restriction or the morality of food,

(48:35):
for example. But I use tools to self soothe and
bring me back to the perspective I ultimately want, which
is to not miss out on all that life has
to offer. So many of the tools Lisa and the
Well Necessities provide have been helpful with this, and I
go back to them often. I had this desire before
to not miss out on life, but since taking the
leap to truly nurture and honor this desire, I am

(48:58):
able to let it guide my decision and the way
I live my life, and food choices and exercise become secondary.
They're important, but they're not the most important part of me.
They don't define me. It can be hard to maintain
this perspective in the culture and world we live in,
so I always try to be aware of the noise
and navigate the best I can. When Mary was on

(49:19):
a minute ago, we talked about how we were going
to have Brenna on and she is someone that I
found on Instagram, but only because of Lisa. And I
found Lisa on Instagram because somebody had reposted her. So,
whoever you all are, thing I know whoever reposted at
the Well Necessities, thank you and Brenna is at the
Wellful and we'll get into that with our talk with her,

(49:40):
but we thought it was an important conversation that we
had because she is in that platform, that social media world,
and I mean, Lisa, you are too. Any social media,
whether anything, can be toxic for anybody struggling with body dysmorphia,
body image, food issues, because I mean every return you

(50:02):
could encounter a food page or a swimsuit page. You
think that you have a problem and you go looking
for that quote unquote solution on Instagram, you will find
it and you will get stuck there, meaning that could
be good or bad. So if you think you need
fitness motivation because you don't like your body, and you
start only following fits Bow account, you will start to

(50:24):
feel like the world looks like just fits Bow models,
and that reflects negatively on how you feel about yourself.
If you see your problem is I have a poor
relationship with food in my body and you seek out
body positive or body neutral accounts or people that are
promoting a more positive self acceptance message, you will find that.

(50:44):
So I think that it's really easy to feel like
what you see on your feet or on your stories
is reality. But know that there's so many different pockets
to look into and we could always find a more
positive environment. I guess as long as we're will to
search for it. Okay, So now we've got Brenna O'Malley
on and on Instagram. Brenna, you are at the wealful

(51:07):
w E L L f U L and I have
so enjoyed following you, and you're a newer follow for me,
and I wish I would have been following you for like,
I don't know my whole life, because I feel like
you just put so much out there that's just exactly
what I need to hear at that moment. Or you know,
I had a friend that was struggling with something the

(51:29):
other day, and quite honestly, it was a friend who
I thought, you know, life was going pretty great. I
had no idea that she was dealing with some food
issues and body stuff at all. And she just sent
me a note saying, Hey, this is what's going on.
And I thought, oh my gosh, you need to see
this post and are you following? And I immediately sent
her Lisa's Instagram. I was like, you gotta follow the

(51:51):
well necessities. Then you got to follow the wellful. I
mean those are like my go toos because I was
able to send her some post posts and then also
give y'all's instagrams as a resource for someone. And social
media gets a bad rapid times for being so negative
and toxic, but for me, if you use it correctly,

(52:12):
it can actually be a pretty amazing place that can
connect you with really cool people that are doing really
powerful things. And so how do you see your Instagram
and what do you want to use it for? And
how did you start it? Yeah, well, first of all,
thank you. That's such a sweet story, and I think
you're right, Like it's so awesome to be able to
connect in such an interesting way over social media. So

(52:35):
I started my social media like it is just an Instagram,
you know, handle at the wealthel in after a few
other like iterations of just you know, kind of health
or nutrition sort of instagrams. But I had been working
with a lot of other dieticians to help their social
media's grow and I was about to start my dietetic internships,

(52:55):
so I was feeling a little bit more confident in
I guess having a message out there. And my actually
started it when there was the coconut oil articles that
came out in that summer, and I know Lisa did
like a whole live on that on her Facebook and
Instagram too, But I just felt like there was like
this peak for me of so much confusion and misinformation
online and all of these kind of conflicting messages over

(53:18):
you know, what is quote healthy and what is not,
and just felt like I wanted to be able to
start of like have some you know, mediating input there
and have like a source was kind of helping to
navigate those messages. But so just get everyone up to speed.
Brenna is a registered dietitian. Now I guess he started
the Wellful right before. And the coconut oil debate was

(53:40):
basically everybody was using coconut oil prior to two thousand
seventeen for like a year or two, and then a
big study came out that said don't use coconut oil,
and everybody started to panic because their favorite oil, they
now learned, was something that they were confused. So the
news left the consumer very confused, like that's every few years.

(54:02):
Were left very confused, like or eggs, okay, should you
have the yolk? Because you only have egg whites? Should
we eat this or that, should we be putting butter
in our coffee? Like it just there's all the fads
out there, and then obviously a lot of the fads
become news. I mean, I was watching a legit news
program the other day and the whole thing on Keto
and that this is whatever he's doing, and they're just

(54:23):
preparing these recipes and they're just throwing that out there
because they know it's a buzz topic and that's what's
going to get them views. But then I'm like, what
are you even saying right now? Because this fried chicken
you just made is considered quote unquote keto Now that
it's okay, you can eat as much as you want.
It's Keto, And I'm like, please stop. Right. So, yeah,
there's always different buzz things I think in the media

(54:44):
and online, and it does get confusing. But Brennan and
your experience, like, how does Instagram We'll just talk about
that in particular, how do you how does it contribute
to disordered eating or orthorexkia in your mind. I think
a lot of what we can see is I think
Instagram really interesting because it's an image based platform, right,
So what we're getting is like these images and then

(55:05):
tax underneath and I think kind of also contributing is
that everybody has access to it, which is great in
a lot of ways. You know, everyone kind of can
have this platform that can make their business or you know,
share different information, but it also equalizes us and like
who is sharing this information, so we don't always know,
you know, what's the source, where is this coming from?
And so that combined with this being an image based platform,

(55:26):
we often can see things like, you know, someone posting
a photo because it has to come with a photo, right,
so it's either of like their own body or someone
else's body, or a plate of food, and then we
have this message attached to it, and it kind of
ends up us associating this message maybe around health or
you know what is quote like a good food or
these different kind of black and white messages with these images,

(55:48):
and that can really play really easily into you know,
our own associations with body image and what health looks
like and really just putting all of this into that
image focus. And so there's been a lot of research
too around you know, our associations and how social media
is affecting us all especially um, you know, everybody, but

(56:09):
especially there's you know, a focus on like young females too,
and you know, there's a study out of Royal Society
for Public Health saying that like nine and ten teenage
girls are unhappy with their bodies, and then also looking
at like things like Facebook and Instagram for a short
period of time was increasing those body image concerns compared
to people who weren't using those platforms or feeling like

(56:32):
they wanted to change things about their appearance after spending
time on those social media platforms. So those images and
messages that we're getting are you know, impacting how we're
feeling about our bodies too, So our bodies and our
entire lives, like right with the filters and the time
spent that goes into curation that most people spend, especially

(56:53):
like pro content creators, that doesn't translate to the consumer
or the Instagram user that sees, oh, they're perfect life.
I wish that message was better told because a lot
of people use it for like art, and they create
an image that's just so unattainable, whether it's a plate
of pancakes or them on vacation, but there's no understanding

(57:13):
of the time that went into creating that and so
when they compare it to their plate of pancakes or
their vacation, you know, where the colors aren't as bright
or the details aren't so whatever, they're left with something
a bit more drab because it's real life, right, Yeah.
And even thinking about like all of these, like even
if you just take one photo of yourself and then
you take two more steps and take another photo of yourself,

(57:34):
like your photos, that photo looks totally different. And so
if we think of that, like in terms of Instagram,
like you're only getting these like tiny, tiny little snapshots
into whether it's someone's like way of eating or life,
or what they look like, or what anyone looks like.
You know, those are just such a tiny fraction of reality. Yeah,
we're just not seeing ourselves. And I'll admit, like I

(57:55):
if I'm doing a story and I pull it up
and I'm like, oh whoa, Like I can see every
image on my face, all the wrinkles coming through, all
the imperfection on my skin. I'm like, Okay, I just
swiped to a different filter, and it's like, oh, okay,
I can speak to the camera now because I feel
more comfortable with people seeing me in that. But that
is my own way of photoshopping my face. And you

(58:18):
know I don't. I don't have face tune or whatever
it's called on my phone, and but I know that's
a thing where people alter brush away cellulite on their
legs if they're on the beach or And we just
got this thing that like anybody on Instagram, their body
is perfect, they don't have cellulite, they don't have this,
And it's this false image that I am guilty of
participating in because I use a filter, like do I

(58:41):
face tune my body? No? I know that it's different.
I know it's not the same. It's a complicated topic
and that's not what we're going to totally dive into
right now because I know it's so different. But it's
it's almost like a gateway, like Okay, well I change
this about myself and then you see yourself in that
real light. Sometimes you're like, oh, shoot, like is that
I was forgot what I looked like because I kept
myself in the day filter. But when it comes to

(59:04):
our bodies, we don't even have a healthy sometimes perception
anyway in our head of what we're even seeing. And
I did see a post that you put up Brenna
that said, I once had a therapist tell me that
our bodies don't physically change very much every day, and
me thinking I looked completely different one day to the
next was more about my perception of how I see
myself than what I actually look like. And that's how

(59:25):
I learned about body image. That is how I really
learned about like body image as a term, was what
is body image? Body image is like our inner picture
of our outer self. I mean, I still am very
fascinated by it, but I think it's so interesting because
it's not about what we look on like on the outside. Right.
So a lot of the times, I think when we
talk about like body positive or positive body image, we

(59:49):
kind of get into this like thought about accepting or
loving all of ourselves all the time. But really body
image is about how we see ourselves and people of
all the for in shapes and sizes and abilities and
like looking all different sorts of ways, can have all
different degrees of positive body image, neutral body image, how
they see themselves. So it's not influenced by our external appearance,

(01:00:13):
but it does influence how we see ourselves. And then
how do you think social media plays a role, because again,
social media can be so amazing, but at the same
time it can be toxic if we're looking to it
for some sort of approval and we're putting too much
weight in that on how we see ourselves of like
how many comments do we get about our body that

(01:00:34):
then turns back into our brains of like, well, shoot,
nobody commented that my body look good, So now now
it's one of those days where my perception is that
my body is not good, whereas the next day or
the day before you might be feeling like your rock
in your body and you're so confident and you're owning it.
Like it can be something as quick as that focusing
on that we didn't get any comments, and then boom,
our brain shifts to that our body must not be

(01:00:56):
good or whatever it is. Right, Yeah, and I and
a big piece about also comes from like you know who,
Like we're talking about these curated images on social media,
So a lot of the times we're seeing you know,
maybe one body type often right, Like there's definitely like
the thin ideal in our society and like kind of
seeing very similar types of bodies on magazines and you know,

(01:01:17):
in social media and also those people feeling like that
same pressure to like we're talking about kind of like
filter yourself to or kind of attain that same image.
So it impacts all of us, um but then as
like the end consumer, when you're seeing these different posts
about you know, whether it's intentional or not, but someone
who maybe is talking about, you know, eating a certain

(01:01:39):
way to look a certain way, or seeing these same
types of bodies that can kind of make us feel like,
even in our conversation just now talking about kind of
how we feel that pressure to edit ourselves or look
a certain way, whether it's with a filter or with
like our eating habits, because a lot of the times
those things can manifest into how we have such a

(01:02:00):
association with what we look like and what we eat,
and like with weight and with what we're eating and
health even and like all of those different things kind
of compound into us trying to look this way through
disordered eating patterns or through feeling really negatively about our
bodies if they're not matching up to these you know,
ideals that we're seeing that we also know are really

(01:02:21):
you know, edited and like not necessarily attainable, but can
kind of send that message when we're following a lot
of the same people online. This is something I think
you reposted from Ditty, or at least you gave Ditty
credit because you put up. Don't ever compare your living, breathing,
beautifully imperfect, real human self to someone else's controlled online content.

(01:02:43):
And whenever you see their content, if it's giving you
some sort of like making you feel a certain way,
that is not moving you in the right direction, Like
what is your advice to people? And I guess we'll
call it like a social media cleanse or something. Right
is the best way to respond because they're going to
exist in real life. There's going to be you know,
triggering people, right. And I heard Demmilvado. She was talking

(01:03:04):
about how there's people she's really close to in her
world that have these well what's defined what people would
consider what she's supposed to have as a pop star,
this body and so. But then these are her friends
or their models or whatever they are. But they're her friends,
but she can't follow them on Instagram and that's hard

(01:03:24):
for her. But but it's a trigger. So I mean,
it might literally be that it's your close friend and
it's not that they're doing anything wrong, but it could
be a trigger for you, And so what is it
What is a red flag to look out for to
know if you might need to mute somebody or just
know that you're not seeing their content because it's not

(01:03:46):
good for you, right, So I would say that if
someone is well, first of all, if you're scrolling and
you're kind of noticing yourself comparing your body or what
you're eating, or what someone else's work out or just
day or even like something that has nothing to do
with how you know, if you're kind of comparing yourself
to them and kind of getting that ikey feeling like
on following them or at least muting them and muting

(01:04:08):
you know, they won't know that you muted them. If
it's maybe someone who you feel like, you know for
whatever reason, you don't want to actually unfollow them, Um,
you won't see their stories and you won't see their posts.
So that's a good option to have, like in your
back pocket. If someone is talking about, you know, cutting
out like whole food groups or making you know, maybe
making comments about their own body that aren't making you

(01:04:29):
feel good about yours. If they're doing a lot of
like before and after photos, even can put a lot
of emphasis on what a body type, and you know,
kind of in whatever context can kind of end up
making one feel better or worse than the other. And
so that's kind of a good sign sometimes to unfollow
that if that's not helpful for you. If someone's labeling
foods as good, bad, or guilty, because guilt is not

(01:04:52):
an ingredient, so all foods are really guilt free. That
one always gets me. Or even if it's someone who's
just posting a lot of photos about like their bodies
or their place and it's just not making you feel good,
like Instagram, and you know, social media, just like your
real life, you can kind of curate it to be
people and accounts and messages that fill you up and

(01:05:12):
make you feel good. And you have a lot of
control over your social media and whereas maybe like if
your coworkers are having a lot of diet talk, that
can be harder to navigate because you know you're going
into the office. But even though there are ways to
navigate that too, But like your social media can really
be like if you don't want if it's not someone
who you would want to be like getting coffee with
and hearing about their morning, you know you don't need

(01:05:33):
to be hearing about their morning every day or like
what their workout was like or what they ate this morning,
and you can kind of just do that like self
auditum most of you know, is this person making me
feel really great? Or is it? Is it not? And
there was actually an article that came out today and
I've seen similar things about it, but it was actually
about how there was decreased self esteem and worsened mood

(01:05:55):
after looking at fitspiration photos. So that's kind of like
hashtag fits though photos that you might think would be
like promoting exercise or like inspiring people to like go
to the gym and get active in that kind of
a thing. But it was a study in Australia of
like a hundred and eight undergraduate women, so seventeen to
twenty five, you're sold, And it showed that viewing Instagram

(01:06:17):
images of like fit spiration like actually increased body dissatisfaction
and mood and didn't necessarily motivate them to exercise either.
So I think that sometimes like these things can maybe
be coming from a place of like, you know, thinking
that this will be really inspiring to me, but kind
of giving yourself that permission, like if it's not sitting
well with you. You know that you know your body

(01:06:38):
best and you know yourself best, and having that permission
to unfollow or mute that too. So Brennan, you didn't
know I had this article literally pulled um that you mentioned.
We didn't talk about it before, and it's something that
Lisa and I are going to touch on, so we'll
do it here. And a quote to from a doctor
in the article said, despite their positive intentions and popularity,
hashtag fit spiration images are yet another way to make

(01:07:00):
women feel worse about themselves and their bodies. So I
feel like so many times it's like I'm posting this
as motivation, whether it's for yourself, as accountability to keep going,
or maybe motivate somebody else, And it can be inspiring.
We just have to be very very careful. I've been
on Instagram for a long time, and when I started,

(01:07:22):
I was in the thick of my disordered eating before
I was a dietitian, and I was definitely using those
hashtags and finding accounts like that. And the scariest part
of it is you don't know while you're in it,
and you just chalk it up as motivation and you
think you should be doing this comparative analysis of you
versus them to stay accountable, to be motivated, but it

(01:07:45):
ends up being completely horrible for at least me, I
think for most people. I mean a few years ago,
I don't know if you remember Brenda, but like BBG
do you don't remember that BBG was all the rage.
There was not a girl on Instagram that was not
doing BBG. And I was already far past my journey
that I knew that that was not something that I
needed to be doing. And now so many people have

(01:08:06):
come out where it's the same thing. It's like you
fall into a community where you find people, and that's
what I think social media does. You find a community
of like minded people and you engage in these activities,
and because everybody's doing it, it gets normalized, and then
when you start to notice things are kind of not right.
I'm not saying BBG is a problem. Sure, there's plenty
of people that use it and don't have disordered eating

(01:08:27):
or disordered relationship to exercise. People have come out to
say that they had a disordered relationship to it. Anyway,
it becomes very difficult to leave the community to say, oh,
this isn't serving me anymore because you're afraid to not belong,
which is what so much of this comes down to,
the fear of not belonging. Yeah, I think that's such
a good point. I think that comes up a lot,
especially with a lot of you know, programs that really

(01:08:49):
focus highly on like you know, dieting or weight loss
and those kind of things offer like this community piece.
But I know for a lot of like at least
people who I've worked with, has been you know, one
of the things that people miss often about those those
things too. So I think also you know, being sure
to follow as you're unfollowing these people, like follow more
people who are promoting messages that you do agree with

(01:09:12):
or that do make you feel really good. And if
you don't know where to start with that, you can
even find some accounts that you do like and that
do resonate with you and then either ask them or
like see who they are following too, to kind of
like give yourself permission to like explore and find those
other people to be like that new community for you
that's going to be more supportive and and you know,
health promoting for you. I think I found that by

(01:09:35):
following you Brenna and Lisa, y'all. It's a community where
you start to notice who are they reposting, what are
they sharing? And then through clicking on that, I find
more people and it's almost like I'm like, what this
whole world of people again? Y'all? Are You're a new
followed to me, Brenna and Lisa just found you last year.
But still I'm like, I think on Instagram, somebody somebody

(01:09:57):
reposted you and then I started following, and I was like, Okay,
this is this is finally someone speaking to what I
need to hear. And before that I wasn't in that
realm of following, so I wasn't seeing y'all and that
there's this community out there that is already ten steps
ahead of where I want to be. And I just

(01:10:19):
feel like it's it's empowering because there's this movement happening
and it's like, Okay, I'm on board, Like what do
we need to do to make this happen? And for me,
like I work in radio and I have endorsements that
that I once would have said yes to that I'm
now having to backtrack how I say, and I'm already
kind of in a deal and once it's up, like
I'm sorry, I'm not going to resign just because it

(01:10:40):
sends a message that I don't I don't want to
put out there. And I didn't know I did because
I didn't know any better. I thought because it was
quote unquote good in my mind, or I was labeling
it as that. But then I just realized, oh my gosh,
for me personally, this is what has been a root
of my problem for years, but I never knew it
because of the restriction that it was causing, and then

(01:11:02):
it ended me in this restriction binge cycle. But I
honestly thought that's just how I thought that was life.
I thought that's how we lived. And even in yes,
I'm in radio, but we go to award shows, were
there on the red carpet, we do things, or we're
interviewing radio musicians, and it's not We're not behind a

(01:11:23):
microphone all the time. Everything's especially with Facebook and Instagram,
it's YouTube, it's visual, and there's this pressure that I
see even in our culture. And maybe because I do
work with a lot of musicians and follow them of
like okay, you know, just posting real quick and as
innocent as it may seem they're like, okay, just started. Basically,
I'm gonna drink water for three days before the awards show.

(01:11:44):
And then after the awards show, you see them at
a burger place getting that burger and fries that they wanted.
And for me, that was so normal because that was me.
And then now I can't even imagine living life that way,
Like I just wanted to be a Tuesday and it's like, okay,
I've got a red carpet tomorrow. Okay, fine, Like my
day doesn't change, Like it's I put on my dress
and I go do my thing and I'm just the same.

(01:12:06):
There's this now I was in a constant gosh, ask
my husband because he's been marrying me for thirteen years
and I'm finally just now finding this freedom. And he's like, hallelujah,
praise God because before any work thing, I was cleansing, detoxing.
But you don't even have to be famous to experience that,
because I experienced it and I was no m nobody

(01:12:26):
here and I'm not. I'm not famous, I'm not, but
you don't have to be going to reward shows you're
thinking about it's like whatever your microcosmic version of that is,
whether it's going to a wedding or an event, or
Friday Night or Valentine's or yeah, social um break, oh
my gosh. In college, for me, it was Halloween like
it was like, you know, it's like, put whatever we're saying,
put it on your level to what what it is,

(01:12:48):
and you can be free of it regardless of where
you are. I think what you do is is so great,
and by following you, I think you'll naturally start to
curate eight, You'll enter a new social media bubble and
we create one of your own. Oh I agree, Like
that's what I think that Brenda does and that you do,
and so I would highly recommend if people are trying

(01:13:08):
to sort through their Instagram and what they want their
follows to look like, that you can't go wrong with
these two. Something I do want to un scrolling through
the wellful since I'm on here and I saw this,
I saw this p s A you put out Brenna
that says P s A. It is not your obligation
to be as small as possible, take up less space,

(01:13:29):
look or eat any specific way, And that's super powerful
to me. I feel like we don't need to be small.
I feel like this idea of like taking up space
is so powerful too, because I think it's it's kind
of interesting when you think of it in that contact
to write of like you know, like you're allowed to,
like all of us are allowed to take up space.

(01:13:50):
And I think that's something that diet culture really and
so many other messages that we get, you know, messages
as like women or you know, all of these different
things kind of combine in and that message of kind
of like being small or being quiet and polite, or
you know, like not making like waves or all of
these other things. Taking up space means like so many

(01:14:12):
different things. Yeah. Well, I would like to thank YouTube
for making waves in in my life and in this community,
because I feel like there probably is push back at times.
I mean, even Lisa and I wanted to have a
disclaimer at the beginning of this little series because we
knew sometimes people were gonna have on or things we're
gonna say may not be um something people are used

(01:14:34):
to hearing, but I'm here for it. Just quick question
while we have you. I know that you've talked about
this a bunch before. How can people best respond to
comment about weight or about food while they're on their
journey to healing. So how can they deal with people
in their lives that are maybe not on the journey
yet or not looking to go on the journey. How

(01:14:54):
can they best navigate that in person? It's hard, but
I think I think kind of continuing to give yourself
permission to set those boundaries and knowing that like I
kind of repeat this, but like you like are the
expert of your body, right, and I think that can
be kind of powerful to remember, like nobody else knows
it better than you, no matter you know, no matter what.

(01:15:16):
So yeah, I think having some comments, like if someone
is commenting on what you're eating, like saying something like,
you know, I can I can make choices about what
I'm eating, or you know, it really doesn't make me
feel great when you say that about my plate, or
you know, sometimes you can, depending on the situation, you
could even like, you know, use humor. I think that's

(01:15:37):
something I always turned to, and I know that kind
of varies on what people are comfortable with, but like
could be something like I'm pretty sure I can make
decisions about what I eat, like I'm an adult, that
kind of a thing, Or you can kind of share
different resources with somebody. I think that Smash the Wellness
Industry article came out I think last year in New
York Times. That's a great piece to It's kind of

(01:15:58):
like an equalizer p that is really kind of like
an introduction So for a lot of people who maybe
aren't aware of the impact of these different conversations or
of these topics, it can be kind of a good
introduction piece for someone who may not realize the impact
of their words or sharing an article like that, Like
Taylor Swift, there was an article that came out about

(01:16:20):
her and her Americana piece recently, and I know for
a lot of people that really resonated because it kind
of was you know, someone who you've seen and really admire.
So having those articles or resources can be kind of
helpful welcoming pieces, but then also setting the boundary and
knowing that, like you can always walk away from a
situation or a conversation if people are talking about dieting,

(01:16:41):
you know, at the dinner table or coworkers, and knowing
that you can always opt out and walk away, or
saying something like you know that those I don't really
appreciate that comment, or or even something like if someone
comments on your body side, like when you in like
a greeting, So I know that's really common to kind
of somebody and be like, oh you look x y Z,

(01:17:02):
whether it's like so great or like your weight has changed,
saying like I'm sure we have something better to talk
about then, are we right now? Or you know, I'm
so happy to see you kind of commenting and focusing
more on those other attributes that you really like and
enjoy about people too, besides their weight. If I'm not
looking to get into it with somebody, which a lot

(01:17:22):
of times it's not appropriate given the context of our
relationship to I'll either change the conversation completely, or if
somebody's having a conversation next to me and I know
it's not appropriate for me to interject, I'm kind of
just like repeating positive self talk to myself and it's
not made up talk. It's just like you know what
you need right now? You know what you need right now,

(01:17:43):
isn't that right? You know, just kind of circling that. Yeah. Yeah,
like having like a couple sometimes, especially before like an
event or something like a holiday or like somewhere where
you are kind of anticipating that coming up, you can
like write down a couple of different reminders or screenshots
and Instagram posts or something, and just keep ready on
your phone for like reminders, Like you know, I can

(01:18:04):
afew diets and have never worked for me. So just
being like, oh that, thanks for sharing, but diets have
never worked for me can be pretty powerful, because he
was going to refute that to throw that out there. Well, Brennett,
thank you so much for coming on with us. We
so appreciate your wisdom. So the theme of this episode
is really about learning to clarify your values and check

(01:18:25):
in with yourself, which is the work that most of
us failed to do. And therefore I get really lost
in the mix and the shuffle of dieting and bad
body image and prioritizing those thoughts and those behaviors without
the things that we truly believe in. So that's something
that happened to me for sure. I lost a lot
of friends along the way. And how is your family
do you think affected by your lifestyle? I think that

(01:18:48):
even for the most part to this day, you know,
they actually don't even know that I suffered when I
was suffering, because it was always brushed under the rug
with like, oh, she's a dietician. She likes healthy food. Oh,
she just likes weird food that we don't like. One
thing about me is my weight never changed. So I
never lost weight, and I never gained weight despite binging,

(01:19:09):
despite um restricting. Even so both end of the spectrum,
and therefore nobody ever questioned it as a problem. I
know that my sister in law will say now she
laughs and says, oh, I'm glad we don't have to
pretend to like your food anymore. But the deep struggle
and the pain and the worthiness and attention that I
was seeking, I know they certainly enjoy me more now. Yeah,

(01:19:30):
And I think that my family might say the same.
I mean, there's times I was just a real debbie
down and I would judge what they were eating. And so, Lisa,
when you asked me to think about what I value,
family is at the top of the list. And so
knowing that I made my family uncomfortable or missed out

(01:19:50):
on certain social aspects of my family, or certain recipes
or food or just sitting around the table and having
good time because I was preoccupied being stressed out about
the food is it's such a bummer. But I'm not
going to live in that that is behind me and
we're going to move forward. And now I know that
I value that and I need to put emphasis on
that right exactly, and I know that you have value

(01:20:14):
homework for us. Yeah, so taking time to clarify your
values is easy to say, but I wanted to take
it a step further and provide you with a worksheet
that's actually in for the Noise Fundamentals. That is my
online course for learning to listen to your body. But
kind of step one to all of this is learning
about who you are so that your behaviors aligne. And
it's easier to say, okay, am I not going to

(01:20:34):
a family dinner to get a workout in when really
my family is what I should be prioritizing. When you
see it's spelled out more oftentimes than not, we see
that the things we value we're not giving any attention to.
So you can go to fork the Noise dot Com
forward slash Values and you will get a value clarification,
work through and take time as much as you need
to work through this, and always know that you can

(01:20:57):
print a couple of these and use them throughout the
year making sure that your behaviors continue to reflect who
you want to be in this world. I love that. Okay,
so that's your homework for this episode. Again. If you
miss the first episode, go back and listen to that.
There's some homework at the end of that one. If
you're in this and you're following us along every episode,
then we'll see you next Saturday here for episode three

(01:21:19):
with more stories, more experts, and more talk. Okay, just kidding,
that's not the real ending. If you listen to last
week's episode, then you know at the end of each episode,
I'm going to be doing an additional ending that didn't
get recorded when we did this together at Lisa and
I recorded this series in early March and coronavirus was

(01:21:42):
not crazy like it is right now, and so I
felt like I need to go back on to the
end of each episode each week before it loads and
do a new little ending to address what's going on
in the world, because it would just be weird, not
too and I feel like there's a lot of stuff
online right now regarding weight and diet culture is totally

(01:22:05):
taking over. So Lisa and I chatted a little bit
before I came on to record, and these are some
things that we thought could be helpful to mention for
you to keep in mind right now. So the jokes
about the COVID nineteen and reference to the Freshman fifteen,
while it comes off jokingly for some, which for me,

(01:22:27):
they're not offensive, and I will admit I have laughed
at some and thought about reposting. And I'm so glad
that I'm in this and I'm learning and I'm continuing
to grow and look out for people and not wanting
to offend anybody or trigger anybody Unknowingly, thankfully, I know
not to repost that, but I think if I wasn't

(01:22:47):
in this and being so aware of diet culture, and
I'm lucky to be surrounded by the wisdom of a
lot of the guests that we've had on and Lisa,
I know better now. And so don't feel bad if
you have posted any of that stuff or reposted it.
This is not a shame place. This is just to
help educate and inform how that might be hurtful and
offensive and triggering to other people. And this podcast is

(01:23:13):
specifically for people that are in the struggle. So I'm
talking to you, and we need to be mindful of
other people that might be going through it like us.
So again, while it comes off jokingly for summits and
stealing fear for many, and again it's allowing diet culture
to become the focus when in fact, our bodies and
minds they need love and attention right now more than ever,

(01:23:35):
not any of that junk. So I'm choosing not to
participate in these jokes. I know Lisa's choosing not to participate.
A lot of our guests I've seen them online saying
they're not going to because again we don't want to
unknowingly offend anybody or contribute to fat phobia. So just
something to think about when it comes to the content

(01:23:55):
that you repost or that you put on your page. Uh.
Some other things to know is that you know right now,
those with disordered eating history, it can be normal to
return to restrictive eating in some way when anxiety peaks.
And if you're noticing that diet culture has a handle
on you right now and it's making your anxiety peak

(01:24:17):
more than the COVID nineteen or the coronavirus, whatever you
call it, well that can be a red flag to
look out for for sure. So try to evaluate where
your anxiety is really coming from and remember that we're
we're living organisms, skies where people, we're humans. We're alive.
We need food. Even when you're not working out or

(01:24:40):
moving as much. We burn calories by reading, watching Netflix,
laying in bed doing nothing. Our body is burning calories
and needs food. So during this uncertainty, it might be
helpful to have some sort of a schedule, and that
might mean scheduling out meal times to make sure that
you're eating enough, waking up and going to bed at

(01:25:02):
the same time, because you definitely should be getting some
good sleep right now if you can, and then penciling
out some time for self care. That's super important and
I'll leave that up to you every day that might
look different for you, but make sure you're getting some
self care in there as well. So that is officially
the end of today's episode, but I guess not really

(01:25:26):
because as you heard in my story that I shared
earlier in the episode, I wanted to tack on Lisa
and I chat with Catherine Defata. It's something we recorded
for this series but ended up using in my four
Things podcast as a teaser for what was to come
in this series because it was a longer chat than
we anticipated and we didn't want to cut it down

(01:25:51):
in any way, so we thought, well, let's just throw
it up as in a different episode and make it
a teaser of what's to come. And so now we're
putting it back in the series. Is here an episode two? Uh,
and we're I'm gonna play it for you now because
I feel like it just helps round out some of
my story and it could be helpful for some of

(01:26:11):
you to hear that weren't listening to my podcast a
few weeks ago, or you weren't subscribed and you know
nothing about it. I would hate for you to miss
out on our chat with her. She's a therapist again.
Her name is Katherine Defata and her instagram at three
Chords Therapy and she's awesome. So here is our little
chat with Katherine. So we've got Katherine de Fata in

(01:26:33):
the studio with us. So you're a guest that's actually
here in person. A lot of our interviews have been
over the phone just because of where people are in
the country. But you're right here in Nashville with us,
which is super cool. And you're a therapist here in town.
But you specialize in eating disorders, and so I talked
about it on the podcast and you listen to Four
Things with Amy Brown, and you sent me a note

(01:26:55):
and said that if you could be a part of it,
just let you know. And we started alling back and forth,
and I was like, yes, can you come to the
studio and and let's record some stuff. So just before
we hit record, we were having an off air conversation
about eating disorder being an addiction and when I'm trying
to talk to my husband about it, or when I

(01:27:16):
was eating a lot and I just felt like I
couldn't stop, and he didn't understand. I would say, and
I don't know if I was right and how I
was saying it at all, but to me it felt
like I was like, I don't know, it's like an
alcoholic can't stop drinking. I was like, but you can
take alcohol out of your life and survive, like with food.
I can't eliminate food from my life because you need
food to survive. I just remember that being like some

(01:27:39):
language out thrown out. I'm sure I heard it somewhere,
but that's I mean, that's comparing alcoholism is seen as
as an addiction. So one of the things that you
asked me was what's difference between self work and therapy
with an actual therapist. And I thought about it and
I actually like I had a different answer, and then
I was like, that's not right. The difference is the relationship,

(01:27:59):
and the relationship between a therapist and a client is
like the number one predictor of if it's going to
be successful, Like if you hate your therapist, you probably
won't get a lot done. So that goes into just
attachment theory and what that means, and do you guys
know what that is? No. Attachment theory comes from this guy.
His name is John Bowlby, and he was doing research

(01:28:20):
in orphanages and he was noticing that like these babies
that were getting everything that they needed like shelter, food, water,
they were dying where they're getting really really sick. But
there's no reason for it except they weren't being touched.
So there's no touch at all, which is crazy. And
what he came up was that a relationship is necessary

(01:28:40):
to survive. He did a lot of research and there's
a lot of stuff that I won't go into because
it might be a little bit boring, but he came
up with these three attachment styles secure, anxious, avoidant, and
we get those attachment styles based on the relationships we
usually have with our primary caregiver. So if I have
a really great, loving environment and all my needs are
met all the time, I'm going to have a secure attachment.

(01:29:02):
But and that's the majority of people. But also I
see it on a spectrum to the majority of people
do have a sect relationship. Yeah, that's what they say
in the research, but doing a quotes and they can't
see that's what they say. However, I think really people
are on a spectrum with this. So and then anxious
attachment would be when sometimes there needs are being met,

(01:29:22):
sometimes they're not, and so you don't know whether to
trust or not to trust. And then avoidant is when
your needs aren't really being met. And so you kind
of developed this idea of like I gotta go do
everything on my own, Like I gotta go figure everything
on my own. Okay, I'm gonna interject just a second,
because I do have two adopted children from Haiti, and
some people may know that, some people may not depending

(01:29:42):
on what they've listened to. And I had not heard
and described as attachment theory, but I know that my
kids and I've witnessed it. They have attachment disorder, yes, okay,
and the lack of stimulation that my son had. I
now see how it comes out in certain times, like
how he response and reacts, and then even my daughter,

(01:30:03):
this is just is this even the same thing? Okay?
So I'm just making sure on the same page because
I also want to be aware of, like now that
i'm their primary caregiver, that I'm focused on whatever they're
going to need from me. But there's already walls built,
there's already My daughter came here at ten, she's twelve now,
but day one from her arrival was resistance. I can

(01:30:26):
handle this on my own. I don't need you should
basically give us the heisman anytime. I mean, it's been
two years of breaking it down and we're finally getting there,
but they're still testing, like I don't really trust you.
Are you going to really love me? What about if
I do this, You're still gonna love me? What if
I Okay, I'm gonna try this out. And so my

(01:30:48):
husband and I just have to remain consistent and so yes,
at first when you talked about attachment theory, was like, no,
I don't know what you're talking about, but they're like
way does. Second, I do know this, but I'm also
trying to think of my childhood and how it was
with my So think about this. You've talked about your
own like issues with food and disordered eating, all of that.

(01:31:08):
I have that to think about as I explain this
kind of where your story pops up. Also, this is
going to be helpful because you're probably doing the things
you need to do with your children without even knowing
that you're doing them, just because you're a good caring person.
So you can develop a certain attachment style. Good news
is it's not static. It's fluid. So going back to
just describing this and how it relates to what we

(01:31:30):
were talking about in the beginning, is people develop these
attachments and they're all based on feeling like loved, like
you belong. And so I have developed my own theory
that we all are born with these two desires to
be ourselves and then to have love and belonging, and
throughout our lives the desire for love and belonging becomes
very very, very very strong, and so we drop parts

(01:31:52):
of ourselves, or pick parts of ourselves, or pick things
up that aren't really parts of ourselves to get that
love and belonging, and so acts when the addiction comes in.
I'll use an example from my life to explain this.
So I never felt like I, like really really really
fit into or had like a thing, or were special

(01:32:12):
in certain parts of my friend groups, in certain areas
in my family, and so I started to do things
to get me attention. I attributed that attention to love, right.
I always say like, any attention is good attention. So,
going back to what you said, what's the difference between
therapy and self work is a therapist is what we
call a secure base, which helps somebody develop a secure

(01:32:35):
attachment style. So somebody's going to come into my office,
probably not knowing that they have any of this or
any kind of drama. I'm going to be that person
like you're explaining with your daughter, what if I do this,
you still love me? What if I yell at you?
Can I still come back? What if I miss a session?
What if I tell you that you're wrong? What if
I disagree with you? Um? What if I act out?
What if I relapse in what you told me not

(01:32:57):
to do? Are you still going to let me come
back in? And the answer is always yes, Yes, Yes,
with safe boundaries and it helps them learn that, like, hey,
I don't have to be a certain way. I can
show up as I am, and like I can find love.
So when you say you were doing things to get attention,
what were those things? So it depends on which part
of my life. Well, let's go ahead and talk about

(01:33:17):
the eaty. So in college, Yeah, it's easy for me
to talk about this. Now I didn't know that this
was happening, no clue, which most people don't. But I
started with a diet, counting calories. And again in my family,
all my siblings went and played dan one sports and
I just like went to college, and so I felt
like I was missing something because didn't have anything that

(01:33:38):
my parents would really brag that much about. No fault
to them, My parents are great. And so I went
on this diet, started losing all this weight. I was
getting tons of attention, like tons, you look so good
this this whatever. Guys like started talking to me more.
And so I attribute that to that of like, Okay,
now I fit and now I belong belonging as love,

(01:33:58):
I'm good. And then in the shell of a human
tap into that a little bit more. What were you
feeling at that time, like what I mean, first, you're
on the high. What does it mean to be a
shell because you're certainly not a shell today with vibrants
and your radiant. Yeah, So just so that people, because
really we're doing this so people don't feel alone. And
I feel like with each person that's sharing part of

(01:34:20):
their real story, which you just did, somebody's relating and
they're like, wait, tell me more. I would say. People
would always describe me as like loud and bubbly and
like fun. I'm a seven on the Instagram, so that
which I didn't know what the Instagram was back then.
So that's who I always was. So when I started
restricting my food, I ended up restricting every single part

(01:34:41):
of my life because I couldn't go to that party
because what if I drank alcohol and there's scalaris and alcohol,
and then what if I got drunk and then I
wanted to eat something that I ate something I shouldn't
eat that crippled me. Or I can't go to that
that restaurant because I can't eat anything there. Then people
are going to ask me like why aren't you eating?
And I don't have to come up with some excuse,
or I can't go to that thing at night because

(01:35:02):
I have to get up and work out at six am,
and I need my energy, and so I started cutting
things out of my life. I remember so the start
of my junior year of college. That summer junior to
senior year, I like never left my parents house when
I came home, and I never saw any of my
friends from high school, which we were always very close.
I remember I did one thing. I went to my

(01:35:23):
best friend from high school's birthday party and then started
at her house and they all went out. I think
it might have been her twenty first birthday, and I
went home after her house that everybody else went out,
and I went home because I was like, I can't
do that. So the thing that got me all this attention,
and all of a sudden, then I was like, what's
the point of the attention, because I'm not letting myself
engage with anybody. And then I came back that next year,

(01:35:44):
my senior year, and I didn't do anything. I didn't
I was in a stority. I like would skip some
of our date parties or I would go. I remember
one time I also was really into school. I like
I went to a party. It was a swap, so
which one that you would like dress up like in
wear a costume, And I like loved doing that, and
I like took my note cards to the bar and

(01:36:04):
like study for my test. You just like withdrew and
lost interest in all the things that you love to do.
My friends did not love that. So that's a part
where that's just part of your story of what you
did to get attention to feel belonging. But then you realize,
like it's kind of like it goes up up up,
and it's like this is where I'm getting belonging love.
And then all of a sudden, you just it's like
we just I think it happened all of us, and

(01:36:25):
you crash and burn because you realize you have nothing
around you and what is this for? So then what
do you do well? And I love looking back at
this because I don't know y'all's experiences, but from my experience,
I had no clue that I was struggling, So like
not a clue. I thought I was like on top
of the world, like this actually makes you want to cry.
But my senior year, I thought that I was killing it,

(01:36:49):
like I had gotten into all these graduate programs. I
was like gonna go do all these things and looking back,
like another thing I did that I have so much
grief over it is I skipped my last date part
pready ever to come back to Nashville and run the
half marathon. I can run that marathon whenever I want.
I can never go back and have my last party
with my best friends. I did not know that. I

(01:37:10):
still was like, yeah, I'd rather go run this marathon.
This is my lifestyle. I'm healthy. I don't like to drink.
Almost like this grandiose sense of self healthy so us
and I probably I was a brat, yes, like because yeah,
because I wouldn't judge what people are eating. You're going

(01:37:30):
to eat that, And I'm like, in my head, I
wish I could eat that, Like I wish I could
eat that, but I have eating the stor as. We
talk a lot about how you have so much control.
I had no control, right well, it was like not
like I could eat that, Like, wow, look at me,
I have so much willpower for not eating. But I
don't really think I did have willpower. Because I had willpower,
I would eat a doughnut. But that's what people would

(01:37:51):
say to me. I'm like I wish I could be
like Catherine and like, you don't want to be like me. Yeah,
I know, because they don't really know the struggle. That's
why it's important. And we'll reiterate it now since it's
kind of coming up. That's why it's important. You never
know what's going on inside someone's body. You might think
it's all they've got it all figured out and their
life is together, and then you can reinforce their behavior
by complimenting something about their body, and then that keeps

(01:38:12):
them on that hamster wheel and really, you have no
idea you contributed to the problem just by giving the compliment.
We've been trying to just get it into people and
even myself over and over, to stop complimenting on people's bodies.
There's so many other things that we could probably compliment that, like,
that's not necessary. It's kind of story real quick. So
this is why I started to look at before I

(01:38:35):
really got into being like a eating disorder therapist. This
is like, I have a shame about this now, but
again I'm trying to not have that. I went to
grad school, I went to Vanderbilt in Nashville, and thinking
I was going to be eating disorder therapists, and guess
what I wanted to specialize in. I wanted to work
with specifically binge eating disorder and help them lose weight,
which is not how you do That's not okay. I

(01:38:56):
could understand, not understand, not understanding. Yes, now I'm like,
oh my gosh, maybe explain why though that that wouldn't
be Yeah, that may hand it. Yeah, because I know
more of that because I've been doing I've been working
alongside people like he said, where y'all understand why that
would be bad, but someone else might not get why.
That's probably not like the best thing. So it's not
about the weight. And so with binge eating disorder, there's

(01:39:19):
something else going on, and if I help them lose weight,
their issues aren't going away, like the reason that they're binging,
which would be the reason why any of us do
behavior that we would classify as an addiction. It's not
about the alcohol, it's not about the food, it's not
about any of that. It's about what's underneath of it.
And so yeah, it might be a side effect that
if these people do the work and I help them

(01:39:42):
through whatever it is that they're trying to work through,
they might lose weight, but that's not the goal because
if I just take the weight away, everything else still
And most people that are in it don't see it
as a underlying problem, like they see it as either
a binge problem I can't stop when I eat, or
they see it as a weight problem I'm overweight because
I eat. Not going any deeper into why do you

(01:40:06):
think that there's anything to the binging and it being
like in the brain. We've touched on brain over binge,
but there's there's obviously with what you're saying with the
addiction at all coming back to attachment and love, right,
So it's like all goes back to some of that
in a way. But for me, I mean, I know
that I had issues with my dad leaving when I

(01:40:28):
was younger, um, but I know that I also was
introduced to dieting at an extremely young age. And I
know when I started dieting and then that led to
restriction and binging, But I didn't really realize I was
binging at the time because I didn't know really. I
was in high school. Then I knew I would over
eat so that I would perge, but it wasn't all
of the time. But I knew that it was wrong,

(01:40:48):
even so that I went to my mom and said,
I need help. I'm throwing up and I don't know
where this came from or why, but I I need
help with this. So then she got me into therapy,
and then that led to therapy all through high school
and college. But it was always just focused on my
dad having left. Nothing ever resonated with me. And then

(01:41:09):
I quit throwing up for years. But what I realized
in there is I was still binging the whole time.
But again I knew that it was not right because
I was like I just went to literally like four
different fast food restaurants in like one stop, Like that's
not normal. So or if I was on a road
trip somewhere, I'd stop at like multiple gas stations and

(01:41:30):
like just eat the entire two hours. That was my
drive from Austin to College Station, which is where I
went to Texas a m. So I remember a lot
of those road trips. Was I ate the entire time,
whether it was a gas station, sonic, Like I had
different stops and I would go through and be like okay,
and then next day I would just do slim fast
or something. But it never I was still in therapy

(01:41:52):
at that point, but it never was getting anywhere other
than somehow I just stopped the throwing up and it
was gone, but I kept the binging. And then when
I read brain over Binge, I've been telling Lisa like,
it just made sense to me. She talks about rewiring
your brain and that you just go to a binge
and you have to start denying the binges. Because I

(01:42:14):
started restricting at such a young age, it trained my
brain that I didn't know when I was going to
get food again, so it kept forcing me to over
eat and then I would binge. And so I started
implementing that over a year ago and that worked for me,
and that was the first thing where it really made
Since now, I'm sure there's underlying issues with what's going on,
but I do want to talk to you about how

(01:42:35):
that worked for me. But about five years ago, when
my mom died, even though I had not purged in
twelve years, I had binge but not purged. The day
after my mom died, I ate dinner and then I
had to go throw it up, and I literally and
it was not an easy thing. It was my sister's
birthday the day after my mom died. And her in

(01:42:56):
laws decided to get a food truck, and we have
I mean otherwise, I mean there's food at the house everywhere,
but we just were not eating. But then it was
like my sister's birthday, so I felt like I had
to eat from the food truck and I had to
eat the cake. So I ate it, and then something
about me literally and there were so many people at
my sister's house. I went over to a neighbor's guesthouse
and I threw up in their bathroom. Like it wasn't

(01:43:18):
easy for me to like make this happen. That somehow
I was desperate to get that food out of my
body and I hadn't even over eaten. But and that
started it again. Just like that, it was back, and
I probably it was a daily thing. Then it was
like every other day, and then it was like and
now sound now that you know you brought up that

(01:43:38):
it's eating disorders can be addictions. It sounds like an
alcoholic returning to alcohol. Yes, where all of a sudden
you need that whatever and you go and find it
and then okay, I'll just do it this one time,
and then you slowly kind of trickle back into the
same thing, okay, but I don't even know that. I
was like, I felt like it was an out of
body experience what I was doing. I don't think I
had the rational rational to be like, Okay, it's just

(01:43:59):
gonna be this one time. I was just like I
did it, and then I was like, what was that?
And I was so freaked out by it that just
like I went to my mom in high school, I
went to my husband almost immediately, and I'm like, here's
the deal. You've been married to me and if I
haven't thrown up our entire marriage, so you don't know
this side of me. But now I'm terrified and it's
here and I feel like an alcoholic that has just
lost their chip. That's exactly what I said to him,

(01:44:21):
and he was like, Okay, well we can do this,
like whatever you need. And I would say. There's a
lot of times where after I mean, he would come
home and he'd be like, how is your day? And
I would be like, even a year after my mom
died or two years, where would still be discussions how
is your day? I'd say my day was fine except
for I threw up, you know, and I would be able.
I'm thankful for a relationship where I could be honest

(01:44:43):
with him about that. But I still was so perplexed
why it was happening. And now I've been over a
year without anything binges or purges, so I feel that.
But I have to share with you a revel a
and I had with Lisa, but I don't even know
if it makes sense. And since you're a therapist, I'm
gonna take advantage. I need to pay you for the

(01:45:05):
hour I told Lisa, I said it, just did it.
I went to therapy. Obviously, I did M d R
at my mom died because it's very traumatic for me.
She did not die. It was not easy. She had cancer.
I saw a lot that I shouldn't see and laid
with her in her final breath, me and my sister
both and then it is healthy or not. We probably

(01:45:27):
laid with her for about an hour. After that, the
corner of people were like, we're here and to load
her up, and we're like, we're not done yet, so
you know, whatever that looks like for you, that's what
we needed. But we definitely might and I both saw
a lot and it was traumatic, and then you know,
here I am the next day throwing up the food

(01:45:48):
and I'm not knowing why. And I'm telling this to
my therapist and she's like, well, that's trauma, and the
last trauma you had in your life was when your
dad left, and that was when you're younger, eating disorder
kind of started. I'm like, well, not exactly, but I
just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that like
that would just make me do it. But then I

(01:46:08):
had this thought because I think something Lisa talked about
or somebody talked about that like I really felt because
I was grieving, and this also could be related to
attention since you said then, And this is just me
having to get completely honest and almost like embarrassed that,
like what, because it's not like it was a very
conscious thought out decision like oh I need attention, so

(01:46:29):
this is what I'm gonna do. This is almost like
five years later and just having to look back and
be like, oh, yuck, was that really what this was?
Because what makes sense to me now is that I
felt like I was grieving, and if you're grieving, you're
supposed to lose weight. If you're grieving, you're not supposed

(01:46:49):
to have food because you're sad, and sad people don't
eat and sad people get skinny, and if I get skinny,
I get attention, which is exactly what happened. I mean,
there was not a single person in my I that
did not comment on my body. Like about a month
after my mom died, because I did get very thin,
and I would weigh myself every single day. I would
drink juice in the morning, urge whatever. I would do

(01:47:11):
yoga twice a day. Also, I was trying to keep
busy to not think about my mom. I would do
wine and zan X for bed so would knock me
out and I wouldn't think about food and I but
nobody knew this was happening to me. But I would
still come to work the next day and someone from
would be visiting from you know, another city that hadn't
seen me in awhile and be like, oh my gosh, Amy,
it looks so good. And then I'd be like thank you.

(01:47:33):
And then but I'd be like, yes, I'm grieving. I'm
doing a good job grieving. I'm doing a good job
grieving because I lost my mom and I needed to
recognize that I'm sad. My skinny represents my sadness, and
that gives me attention. Yeah, it sounds very twisted and
messed up to say out loud. I undervel that makes
more sense to me than when the therapist told me

(01:47:54):
she thought like a trauma capsule opened in my head.
And because that's how I dealt with my dad leaving,
that immediately the route my my brain was going to
go to deal with losing my mom. And I just
don't know that that makes sense to me. Thank you
for sharing that. I think your therapist could be right there.
Part of it could be this is the thing with therapy,
and like me, there's no just like one way. So

(01:48:18):
that's why I mean eating disorders and addiction in general
is hard because I can't just say it's every time
because of this. A lot of times it's because of this.
There could have been the trauma part, But I think
what you're talking about, it's probably attached to your trauma
of not getting the attention, to the love and the
belonging from your dad. And then now this is like
your mom, like your secure base right person, and then

(01:48:41):
she's gone, and then like who's my person? And who's
gonna recognize or who's gonna know what I need? Or
who's gonna all of that comes up of like you
lost your secure base, So what do I do? You're sad? Right?
Part of it is I hear you saying like I
want people to see my sadness. I think part of
it also is I don't want to feel sad either,

(01:49:02):
and so what can I do to shove down all
these feelings? Because it feels good when I'm doing this.
It's twisted as it is, like it feels good to perch,
it feels good to go on a run for two hours,
it feels for a period of time it feels pure.
It doesn't yeah, yeah, until it doesn't. And at the beginning, yes,

(01:49:23):
it was like this high and this ride, and until
it got messy and it was just exhausting and it
was like I can't keep up or if I would
try to throw up and it didn't work, and I
was like, oh my gosh, I just ate all that food,
like and it's not coming up like it was. Just
tell me about like the embarrassment of like this is
so messed up. I feel embarrassed that this is what
I did. I think because I could be wrong in this,

(01:49:46):
but if we're for the sake of our conversation of
viewing eating disorder as an addiction, and alcoholis addiction. I
feel like, for lack of a better word, being addicted
to cocaine or alcohol is a little more sexy. I
don't know the right word for sake of this. I'm
just gonna say, binging a bunch of food and then
throwing it up for whatever the reason is is disgusting

(01:50:10):
to me. I'm never I don't look at and it
could just be me thinking that about myself. I'm not
saying that about anybody else and saying it literally about myself.
I'm sure there's shame associated with anything that you're addicted to,
but I feel like, gosh, if I was addicted to cocaine,
nobody would be like, oh, you're disgusting. They'd be like,
oh wow, she that's crazy. She needs to get some help.

(01:50:30):
But I'm like, if they knew what I was addicted
to and that I was doing this, they'd be like,
she's so disgusting. So that's my own thought processes. It's
not as you putting it out here right now. On
this is breaking down that factor of shame. And I
think like even on Instagram, like anxiety became so popular
to talk about but like depression was in the cloud

(01:50:51):
of like this ship thing you can't talk about. And
I recently talked about something that I never said either,
which was laxative abuse, and flooded with messages, not comments
on my private on my public Instagram page, private messages
of me too. So there is something super secretive still
about the purging, whether it is up or down, that

(01:51:15):
people are still not acknowledging. But you right here saying
it is showing that there is no disgust to it.
There is no shame, especially you as Amy back right,
because I wouldn't want anybody else sharing to I would
say that same thing to them. We're breaking it down.
We're just broke it down for so many people. I'm
becoming more vocal about my story. I think that on

(01:51:36):
the radio years ago it maybe come up that I
had dealt with a needing disorder in high school and college.
It was kind of like I could relate on that level.
Never would talk about the issues with food or binging
or obsession food obsession for all these years. That just
doesn't come up organically. Then after the stuff with my mom,

(01:51:59):
oh my god, I kept I mean, I told my
husband about it, but I was very private about it,
like very until now recently, I feel like I'm in
a better place and I don't want people to feel alone,
and I need to start sharing that part of my story.
So a lot of things I haven't said out loud yet,
like what I just shared, I haven't fully said out

(01:52:23):
loud in the whole, in its entirety, and so and
as I don't even I'm still probably not all giving
it all. I feel good. I mean, I feel like
I've been like there's a couple of times where I'm like, okay,
smiling inside because it does feel good. There's a little
bit of a high from it. But also I was
at a low where I was taken back to it
and I was very sad for myself and I was

(01:52:43):
about to cry but trying to keep it together for
the sake of the being one of the hosts here.
But in crying is okay. I have no issue crying
on air, done that plenty of times. So I'm sad
for that's that part of me. I want to tell
you a story, Okay, one I have to say this
because this is huge. This is a side note, but
when people talk about this stuff, I mean, what you

(01:53:04):
were saying it is huge because yeah, people will talk
about in rexia and restricting and my exercise addiction. They
won't talk about the other stuff, and it's not any
better at all. And what you're talking about is shame.
I feel ashamed for what I did, And what shame
feeds off of is your silence and secrets. And so

(01:53:25):
when we talk about it more, the shame kind of gets.
You starve the shame, so the shame dies. And so
that's a big deal because I'm sure there's one million,
jillion trillion people that are going to hear that and
be like, oh my gosh, I felt that way too.
Is it okay for me to talk about this? I
think I'm gonna try it. The other part is this
is the story I was gonna tell fifteen minutes ago,
but I'm glad I'm telling it now because there's this doctor.

(01:53:47):
His name is Dr Gabor Mate, and he does a
lot of research and stuff around addiction. He was working
with heroin addicts and he was trying to figure out
He's working in a center where harm reduction. So it's like,
we're not gonna you're not gonna get sober, We're gonna
teacher how to responsibly use. But he was going around
and interviewing these men and women are like, why do

(01:54:08):
you why do you use heroin? We know that's bad,
we know that can kill you. And he went to
this one guy and he described him the way I
remember him describing him as this like almost like he
would look like a big bouncer at like a club
with like bald head, big guy tattoos, like tough. And
he said, can you tell me what heroin does for you?
Like why do you use it? And he said, I

(01:54:30):
don't really know how to describe it, but have you
ever been sick and your mom puts you on her
lap and she wraps you up in a blanket and
she starts feeding you chicken noodle soup. He was like,
that's what heroin feels like. So this guy concluded, oh, love,
Like that's what heroin feels like. Love. It feels like
a warm hug. And so I tell that story because

(01:54:51):
like there is so much shame and like why do
I do these things that are so bad? And I'm like,
what's wrong with me? Is why to hear all the
time like Katherine, what is wrong with me? And I'm like,
nothing's wrong. With you, there's actually something right with you,
Like Amy, there is something right with you. The fact
that you were like, there's something wrong with me. I
want to feel better. I need to go do this
thing that I know that used to help me feel better.
That means that there's something right with you that you

(01:55:13):
are trying to find. Like we all need attention, we
all need love, we all need belonging. We are born
attached to our mothers like we need attachment. We're born
that way. And so I just say that because I
think a lot of people think to themselves, like what
is wrong with me? Like why can't I stop? It's
like because you're a healthy human that wants to get better,

(01:55:34):
and thank God that you did that, rather than like
just being like take me away life, Like can you
turn to your husband too, which is like telling I
think I'm like, that's your secure attachment. Now can you
take you? And it can be any it can be
anybody that's your secure attachments, like help me. Well, thank
you for letting me talk through that. That's like we

(01:55:55):
just made a lot of clarity that we needed. Yeah,
I didn't know where where we would go with that
for sure, But I think that this is how do
you feel at lia to do anything you want to
add from your think that the audience will feel like
I did, where we might not have your exact story,
or maybe you do. There's plenty of people who have
purged for that exact reason. But I feel like I've

(01:56:18):
made headway in my understanding of myself far beyond my
even years in therapy, just by understanding the importance of
secure attachment and personally not having that growing up either
despite what it looked like. UM and how we go
about seeking attention because we're scared not we don't feel safe,
and there's a million ways to do that. But for

(01:56:39):
a large majority of us, with the addition of the
emphasis on thin equals loved equals health equals applause, it's
an easy one kind of right next to it. So
what do you do with your clients? What is something
we can can leave is like, is there like an
activity or like affirmations or something you encourage them to

(01:57:03):
do that those that are listening that might be some
of the stuff we've talked about today is resonating with them, Like,
is there like some stuff they can like a piece
of homework or something my gut says, if this is
really resonating with somebody, I want them to reach out
and go to therapy. That could be great. That might
be because some people see that there's shame and therapy

(01:57:24):
and we should make sure that we're here to say
that there's not there's nothing wrong with that at all whatsoever.
And something that you say on your Instagram all the
time that I am not a therapist, but I've been
in therapy my whole life is there doesn't have to
be something wrong with you to go to therapy. So
even if you don't identify with the purging or even
an eating disorder and you're just listening to this, I
mean I have found that my most profoundly huge steps

(01:57:46):
forward in therapy have been on days where I didn't
come discussing a trauma or anything relevant to my life.
Think it's just a tool to better get to know
your total being and that is profoundly huge in how
it will affect everything in your life. What about a
piece of homework for people, um that you had said earlier,
is you know which so second nature for us to

(01:58:07):
comment on somebody's body. What are some things that people
can maybe for the next week work on I believe
in like human connection. I think the more we talk
to people and out loud, the more connected we feel.
Like being in an uber even and it's so easy
to just be on your phone the whole time, but
even interacting with an uber driver or taxi driver I
live in the city. What are ways that people can
complement people this week that are non appearance based? Can

(01:58:31):
we push them to talk to people and say things
that they What are some some things we can say
to start conversation with strangers or loved ones? You know what?
I want to come back? This actually comes from your
last week's episode. Um, what did Kelsey say about if
you think and it's nice, say it? Oh, if it's kind,
it's kind, say so. Just to clarify since this is
a completely this is a different series but and it's

(01:58:52):
airing in April, but I do have I had an
interview back in March with Kelsey Ballerini on the Four
Things podcasts that you're referencings something that's you said it
just so that we're talking about empowering women, And Kelsey
was just saying, you know, one thing I've learned is
if it's kind, say it, Like who cares? If you
know the person, or if you don't know him, if
it's kind, if you think it, if you think it

(01:59:12):
and it's kind, say it. That's exactly what she said,
So I would say that with a caveat if it's
about the shape of their body. So because again you
never know if that is a point of contention for somebody.
But one of the things that I've worked on because
I actually am like a introverted extrovert, which it doesn't
make a lot of sense. I think I am too okay,

(01:59:33):
So okay, we all are, but like I sometimes don't
I like go into a place and I like think
all these things about that I won't ever say anything
because I just kind of keep to myself and white
for somebody to approach me. But I think something that
we can work on is like when we see somebody
and if we're just happy to see somebody, say it's
good to see you, like I've missed you means a
lot to me, or rather than being like, oh my god, girl,

(01:59:56):
you look so good, you look so happy. I think
that a lot of the time when we do complement
somebody's weight or body change, it's because we've become so
that's this is an okay thing to say to somebody
that you might not even know, and so you might
actually be thinking, this person looks happy. But it's a
weird thing to say, hey girl, you look happy. So

(02:00:17):
let me say, did you lose weight? Like I think
that we actually are seeing again going back to the
radiance in people, but it might feel strange to say
you look radiant because it's not a normal exchange, like
you look good? Right, Like, so I think diving into
your psyche of okay, maybe you think this person looks good.
That's the first thing. Why do they look good? What

(02:00:39):
are they giving their fitting the standards of what society
tells us looks good? Because if society didn't say that, like,
what would we think? Like I always say, we are
the decider of our own opinions, so we get to
actually decide that, like which a lot of people would
be like yeah, dub. But then I'm like, well, do
you think that because the person next to you thinks that?
Or do you think that because you really think that
about yourself for about other people. And I use the

(02:01:02):
example of if I pulled out a peanut butter sandwich
and started eating it and you're like you, peanut Butter,
but I like I don't like it anymore either. The
same thing as like, if somebody is like, I don't
like your shirt, like, well, I you're allowed to still
like it. If somebody thinks that you look whatever, you
can still think you look good if society says that
you are not. But we need to stop questioning ourselves

(02:01:24):
based off of others opinions, whether it's as profound as
your body or insignificant as your shirt. Peanut Butter, Peanut Butter, Catherine,
thank you for coming to tell if you think it,
and it's kind to say it, which comes from both
doesn't cover me. I can't take said it, but I
don't know if she said it. She got it from

(02:01:44):
somewhere where I always say, make it easy to be
kind to yourself, So going along with that, it's like,
make it easy to be kind to other people too,
Like all you have to do is go up to
somebody and say, hi, how are you, and you can
start a conversation that could make somebody's day, exchanging a
smile every now and then. People may not remember what
you say, but they remember how you make them feel,
and then good one okay, Catherine, let's throw out your

(02:02:07):
Instagram so people can follow you. Can you say it
real quick, It's at three Chords Therapy, so three is
spelled like the word r E. Yeah. And then my
website is three chords Therapy dot com. Too perfect. All right, Well,
thank you so much for taking time to talk. Thank you.
It's fun.

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Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News

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Amy Brown

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 2 of OUTWEIGH: A Series Exposing the 'Grey Area' of Disordered Eating