August 22, 2024 • 35 mins
This is an episode Amy never thought she would relate to since divorce wasn’t ever going to happen to her, but it did, and now she’s thankful for conversations around the topic. Jon Slavet (founder of Halftime with Jon, a network dedicated to helping men successfully navigate separation & divorce) is Amy’s guest and the ‘4 things’ they touch on are: surviving separation/divorce, dating + turning your second half into your best half, co-parenting + kids, and gratitude (Jon shares 4 things he’s currently thankful for!)
HOST: Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy
GUEST: Jon Slavet // @halftimewithjon // Halftime with Jon Podcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Good cast up thing, little food for yourself life.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh it's pretty bad.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Hey, it's pretty beautiful than beautiful.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
For that for a little more than it's exciting, said
he your kick in with four Thing.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
With Amy Brown, Happy Thursday, four Things.
Speaker 5 (00:34):
Today's episode is one that well, I never thought I
would really relate to, since I never thought divorce would
happen to me, but it did. And I am thankful
for conversations around the topic for sure, and those that
are willing to share their experiences with us, like my
guest today, John Slavitt, who is founder of Halftime with John,
(00:55):
a network for men at midlife. And you have a
podcast to John called Have Time with John as well,
which is dedicated to helping men successfully navigate separation and divorce.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Hey John, Amy, Hello, good to see you.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Good to see you too.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
And I know your tagline is make your second half
your best half, which I love and it's a goal
that I have for myself as a woman, especially in
this season of my life now that I'm divorced and
entering in the second chapter of things. And I know
you work primarily with men, and my audiences mostly women,
but our conversation will serve any human going through this
(01:34):
type of season. Even someone happily married I was thinking
about it, could be listening to this right now and
they may have a sister or a best friend or
someone in their life that is navigating divorce, and after
hearing our conversation, they may know how to better come
alongside someone that is going through a divorce, a separation,
co parenting, and how.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
To best support them.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Now, the four things that John and I are going
to touch on are surviving separate and divorce, dating and
making that second half your best half, co parenting, connecting
with kids, and then we'll close with four things gratitude.
So John, I want to get into surviving the separation
and divorce, so we'll just go with that out of
the gate and hear some of your story. And you
(02:19):
are happily remarried, so I'm excited to hear how that
also came about. And you're the proud data four kids.
But let's take it back to when you first knew
that you were going to separate and what that process
looked like for you, and then I can share some
of my experience as well.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
This is all very fresh for me because I'm in
the villa of my first season, and we've been interviewing
all kinds of experts who have a perspective on separation divorce,
and many of them I worked with when I was
going through my own. So I'm interviewing these people and
having these emotions come back up years later because I
got separated, you know, seven years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
It's been a long time.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It's painful, and as you know, at some point you
reach a place in your marriage that you never thought
you'd reach going into it. No one gets married thinking
they're going to be.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Separated and divorced.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
No one does right when you walk down the aisle,
and at some point you reach that point. And it's
almost like being in a little boat in the middle
of the ocean alone, which is the way I would
analogize it, in the middle of a storm, and the
only way to go through it is straight into the
storm and through that pain. And I think that the
(03:32):
biggest lessons for me having gone through it are building
a support system. The support system might be a therapist,
it might be a confidant you're close to, having practices
that keep you healthy both mentally and physically, and understanding
when you're in it that you will get through it
because when you're in the middle of the pain of
(03:53):
separation divorce, it's consuming and it doesn't feel like it's
going to end, especially if it becomes litigious and you've
got lawyers involved. God forbid, go to trial, which is
a very small percentage, It's less than five percent. I
believe that the divorces go to trial most settle up court.
So I've got lots of lessons to share, and I
(04:15):
think on a personal level, what I learned amy is
fifty one percent of the battle is sustaining your own
mental and emotional health. It's at least fifty one percent.
Forty nine percent or less is the practical and tactical
pieces of how do I go through the separation, how
do we tell our kids, how do we tell our community?
(04:35):
When does a lawyer get introduced? What's the process? That's
the minority of it, but the majority of it is
betting up a support system. And the final thing I'll
tell you is women naturally create communities of support around themselves.
Women seem to be naturally good at this. A lot
of the men where my friends have gone through this,
or people listening to my podcast, they don't have that
(04:57):
support system. Somehow that came up as a kid to
a young adult to an adult man, thinking I've got
to suck it up and go it a month through
life's biggest challenges. Wrong, You've got to do the opposite.
So it's painful, you have to go through it directly
into it, and you've got to build a support system
and a framework for yourself to be successful.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
So in your experience with people that you've talked to
and other friends, or just even in your interviews, is
there a common suggestion of how long a separation should be.
I know that every circumstance might be different, Like if
you are at risk in some way, shape or form,
then you'd get out. I'm not talking about that. But
(05:40):
let's say there's a decision being made, and how do
you know you're making the right decision, and how long
do you make the separation, especially if there are kids involved?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Is there a sweet spot?
Speaker 5 (05:54):
Because we took about a year and we are very
private about it our inner circle, I know, but publicly
we didn't talk about it at all, And I would
say it was a year of couples therapy and complete separation.
We were not living together and that felt right for
me and I assume it's just different for everybody.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
But is there a number.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
That's a great question. I don't think there's one number.
I mean, I think it's very situational. There are examples
that go from years and years, which I think is
really tough and I don't think is good for anyone.
And they are examples that are three to twelve months.
And again I'm a lay expert here, meaning I've gone
through it myself, but I've interviewed lots of experts to
(06:38):
focus on this and my next episode, which hits tomorrow.
Susan Reagan is an expert therapist Marriage Families Couples works
with a lot of couples to separation divorce, and she
calls the first phase discernment, and what she means by
that is that sometimes couples come in and they're trying
to decide what are we doing and she talks about
(07:00):
three doors. Door number one is this is too painful.
We're separated, but we're doing nothing right now, like we're
just going to be separated. We're living separately or apart
or together. Door number two is we're working on the
relationship because we want to save it. Door number three
is we're definitely getting divorced, and the purpose of therapy
(07:21):
or the separation is to navigate to a divorce. So
the first thing I think any couple needs to do
is figure out which door you're walking through one, two,
or three if you know you're getting divorced, and if
one spouse says, you know what this is happening. And
in America, by the way, seventy percent of the time
that's the woman initiates.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Thirty percent it's the man.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
So if it's happening and you know you're going through it,
the biggest thing is taking care of the kids when
they're kids in the middle, and so it's taking time
to get on the same page about how you communicate
with the kids, with each other, with your community, with
their school, across the board. And that takes some time
to get on the same page because when you're mad
(08:02):
at each other and you're in a breakdown, you've got
to overcome that to figure out how to communicate on
the same page, even if you don't agree with that communication.
So I think that the biggest factor is what are
we doing? And the second biggest factor is some of
their kids is getting on the same page. And so
I think Most separations are in your plus and some
(08:23):
much longer.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
Yeah, I think that after we had decided to get
a divorce, So that was the separation that was probably
us trying to figure out what door we were going
to go through. Was that first year, and then the
actual divorce process was another year. Some of that just
because of all the work that needs to be done
(08:44):
in you know, Okay, well, how are we dividing this up,
and where are we going to live? Like you said,
communicating with the proper people, communicating with our kids, all
of that takes time. And we did get married. I
was about two twenty five, so we've been married for
almost two decades. So when you have that much life
(09:04):
with someone, there is some stuff you certainly need to
divide up. But I kind of thought it was going
to go a lot faster because it's not like we
had this crazy life. But I found that all of
the different things that you have to do if you're
trying to do it in a thoughtful way, it took time.
And Ben and I Ben as my ex husband, and
(09:27):
we had two words that we focused on during our divorce,
and they were thoughtful and kind, and we treated it
like a mantra. When we were communicating good for you,
we also had to know when to walk away, and
it was like, Okay, this is where we press pause
and we'll pick back up when we can have a
better talk. But I just didn't realize how nasty the
(09:48):
majority of divorces can get. And so that would be
my encouragement is just even if staying on your side
of the street, you can control your emotions and stay
thoughtful and kind, because it I guess it's rare that
both will remain that way. But what was your experience.
Did you feel like you handled it well at the time,
or looking back you learned more after them and like, ooh,
(10:11):
I could have done that better.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I think from a respectfulness and kindness perspective, I have
it well. I think from a process perspective, I could
have done some things different because I think some of
my actions made the process longer than it needed to be.
But I think what you're saying is super important. And again,
when they're kids in the middle and you want to
(10:34):
get to the other side, you need to think about
the relationship you want with your partner with your ex
on the other side, and behave every step of the
way with the intention of realizing that ultimate relationship and
service of your kids.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
That's difficult. We're in the middle of it.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
Before we started recording, you said that divorce is the
gift that keeps on giving, especially when there's kids involved.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
If you don't have kids and you're getting.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
Divorced, it's still very difficult. But once you're done with
that relationship, you can be done with the kids. Though
there is that layer of like, yeah, you're never done,
and I feel I'm constantly facing new challenges and like, oh,
I haven't learned how to navigate this one yet. And
I always like to have the word yet is because
(11:19):
we will learn, we will get through.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
And I like that you.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
Said you've got to just go into the storm. That's
what buffaloes do. Buffalos go into the storm, and cows
turn away and they end up in the storm longer.
So sometimes you can try to turn away to avoid
what's coming, but you might as well go right in now.
For you, I don't know how personal you get with
your story, but in that season of deciding that it's
(11:45):
going to be divorced, because like you said, none of
us go into marriage thinking the divorce is going to
happen to us.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Do you feel like you were a buffalo or a cow?
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, maybe both. I think that I was a cow
for some number of years. I think my ex and
I both were because we were having a tough time.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But I think that most couples.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
That end up divorced to go through some period of
time where their instinct is that this is not working
and this is painful and there is something better for me,
and they stay in it for all.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
The obvious reasons, the kids being the number one. A
lot of people wait.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Until kids are out of the house or kids are
in college. And I'm not judging anyone for their actions,
but that's the cowpies. I think once I knew where
we were headed and what I wanted for the rest
of my life, I was a buffalo's buffalo, and I
think I helped us get through it through initiating and
being persistent and bringing experts to bear to help me
(12:45):
in my ex. So maybe a bit of both.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Well, So you've mentioned therapy experts. Those are some tools.
What are some other tools.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
That you used?
Speaker 5 (13:04):
So you've mentioned therapy experts, those are some tools. What
are some other tools that you used and that you
would encourage other men especially to use in that processing.
But obviously women can do it too. I think that,
like you said, we create our community and you know
we want that support. But some women are wired like
(13:25):
men in that way. So what other tools were helpful
for you? Like, did you journal, did you go on walks,
did you meet friends for coffee? What else was in
the mix besides just therapy?
Speaker 3 (13:37):
I did a bunch of things. I think guys need
to find other guys they can be themselves with. And
sometimes that's not the guy who went to high school with,
and sometimes it's not the guy you would say is
my best friend right now. Need to find men you
can be authentic with, and that may be emotions and
trauma from the past and experiences that you need to
(13:59):
actually get through or be able to communicate or feel.
And so there are amazing groups from men out there,
and I've interviewed some of these founders. One is called
MELD Men's Emotional Leadership Group. Can google it, amazing group
that helps guys grow emotionally. Another group is called every Man.
It's ev r y m AN, So if you google
(14:22):
ev r YMN. Similar group brings guys together to figure
out how to get in touch with their emotions, but
in a way that's very practical in service of their growth.
Another group's called Mankind Project been around forever and does
retreats for men around emotional growth. So I think it's
first five.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
To community of men.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
The second piece is very personal. You need to find
ways to experience joy and happiness, even if it's for
like thirty minutes a day.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
What do you love doing.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I grew up playing basketball, I used to shoot around.
I'm a big swimmer. When I'm in the pool, I
find I can disconnect and I do hot yoga. I
do the one hundred and five degree yoga, and when
you're in there, you cannot have toen think about anything.
So I think the second thing is find something that.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Brings you joy.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I think the third piece is structure. So when you're
going through major changes, you're going to anchor your calendar
and your life in things that are consistent. Put them
on your calendar. I'm taking a walk with this friend,
I am doing my workout, I am making time for myself.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Those things are structures really important in those difficult times.
So I think it's things like that community of men
where you can be authentic e've been emotional and work
on your growth personal habits that bring you joy in
that structure.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
What are you doing as a dad to make sure
that your children grow up differently?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Glad you asked that I have two girls and two boys,
So my kids range from nineteen seventeen, ten and five.
My stepson's five, so my youngest is ten. I think
the biggest things are talking about in an age appropriate
way your own emotions or you have felt sad or down,
And I'll tell you my second episode of the season.
(16:05):
My guest guy named bj Wasserman is a big Men's
surtreved men's personal growth leader. He tells an amazing story
about catching himself getting super angry at his son, like
wanting to be physical with him. His son had just
DoD something it really poed him, and he caught himself
enraged and he was able to kind of go a
(16:28):
level underneath the anger, because you know, anger is a
surface emotion. There's always something underneath sadness loss me connected
to that and in that moment with his son, and
they have this amazing bond in that moment.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So it's those two things.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
It's sharing personal emotions with your child, And it's looking
for opportunities when you are emotional to go a little
deeper and make that connection with a child, particularly when
there's some kind of conflict going on, because right if
you're raising kids and boys, there's plenty of opportunity for conflict.
They're going crazy, they're misbehaving, their physical they are hyper.
(17:06):
There's so many kids now we're also add who or
just running around like crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So I'd say it's those two things.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
How did you tell your kids or would have experts
said that are coming on your podcast? And again it
could be case by case, but I don't even know
if my excident I did it properly, but we kind
of divided. I took my daughter out and we sat
one on one and he took our son out, and
that's how we initiated. Of course, they knew we had
(17:33):
been separated, and even in our separation, the kids didn't
go back and forth. And even in the beginning of
our divorce, we had an apartment in a house, and
we would go back and forth as the adults and
the kids stayed put. But when it came time for
the conversation, I initiated with our daughter and he initiated
(17:54):
with the son and then we followed up with the
others later. But we had the one on one initial
talk like I don't even know if we sought advice
on that, but it worked for us, so I didn't
know if there was a way to do it.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You know what, it sounds like you did it great.
And I think the key principle is humans and of
course little kids are just little humans. It's more about
the feel of what you're saying than the exact words.
Is it delivered with love, with authenticity, And that's the
number one thing because you can say a lot of words,
and if it's disconnected from your heart, then the kid's
(18:31):
gonna you know, read that kids are just feeling right
machines right. I think beyond that, I think the themes
in general from talking to experts are, you know, letting
them know that you still love your partner even though
this is happening, that you and your partner have had
a great relationship, and that sometimes relationships change and they
were entering a new phase in the relationship. I think
(18:53):
another is consistency, like, hey, this is happening, but your
life is going to be the same. Your life is
going to be as consistent as possible. Where you live,
where you go to school, you know, the time you
have with your parents, it's going to change, but you've
got both your parents involved. It's those kinds of themes
and I think fewer words and you know, more hugs
(19:13):
and authenticity.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Just make sure that it's not too f you, right,
I guess you just it's case by case.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
You have to judge, like what your kids are able
to handle.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
You raise a good point.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I think it's important that again age appropriate words, but
that the kids do understand what's happening. So if you're
getting divorced and you don't say the word divorced, or
if you're actually getting separated and you're going to live
separately and you don't explain that, that would be a miss.
Then I would ask them, do you have questions and
what are they?
Speaker 5 (19:42):
And they may not have them right away, but also
saying this door is always opened when you are ready
to talk about it, if you want to talk about it,
if you want to write anything down, I'm here for that.
So let's jump into the dating side of divorce. And
I'm sort of new to them at layer. My ex
(20:02):
started dating almost immediately, which I guess is pretty common,
and I have been slow to join the dating party.
But what are your thoughts on how do you start
that process and when do you know that you're ready.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Well, let me covey at this by saying that I
think most people aren't ready when they get separated to
date again in a serious way or look for a
serious relationship. I think that it takes some time, an
introspection to look and say, Okay, I've just failed at
a marriage, which I didn't think would happen. Whether you're
in it for a few years or twenty years, that's
a major event, and I think you have to take
(20:39):
a responsible perspective, meaning what was my part.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
You can't point the finger right.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
At your spouse and say it was their fault and
therefore I'm ready to date again. It takes two to
tango right. You're in a relationship with someone. There are cases,
obviously where there's abuse and there's something unusual. Well, obviously
that's different, but I'm talking in a decently normal relationship.
So I think you need to take some time and
understand who am I at this point in my life,
(21:06):
what do I really want? What have I learned from
the relationship that I'm getting out of, because if you
take all your hurt, roll that up and go forward
into the apps, into a new relationship uncertain of what
you want, You're just going to bring all that crap
to someone else, hurt someone else, confuse someone else. Now
I'm not judging, okay, because there are people who rebound
(21:29):
immediately and start dating, go and createze on the apps,
and it's an individual choice. But I think personally, from
what I see in my experience, you need some time.
Trust your intuition. You will know when you are ready,
but it may take some time. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
I think that my fear around realizing that I was
going to get divorce was knowing, Okay, I don't want
to end up like my dad who was married four
times and going from one relationship to the next.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
I know guys who have been married four times, and
I mean, that's it's tough.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
Are apps like the way to go when you're thinking
about dating? I know you mentioned apps like a couple
of times when you threw that out there, and I
guess for me, apps seemed a little bit weird because
they came about when I was married, and so I
never used them, And so now being single in my
forties and thinking about getting on an app.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
It's very weird.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Oh yeah, totally weird. I'm ad fifties. So when I
was dating my ex and got married, no one used apps,
and now it's it's just par.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
For the course.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
And I think there's a usefulness to them. They are
apps that are more selective than you know, but you've
got to pay a bit more for and I think
that it's a part of the game.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
But it's also a bit of a drug.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
And I think most people who had been on them
for a while or completely sick of them. But my
wife and I connected on an app. So when I
met my wife for the first time in the spring
of twenty twenty, this was like a COVID date amy
that COVID had hit March of twenty twenty. We took
a walk in April of twenty twenty. And I'll give
credit to Bumble, which you know bumbles, the app where
(23:03):
women get to decide if they want to connect with you.
For all of the negatives that you would hear out there,
I would thank that app for my marriage and for
my relationship. But I think that you've got to know
who you are and what you want and be overt
about it and kind of hold to some standards as
opposed to just going crazy and you know, kind of
(23:24):
meeting three people a day and.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
You know, or worse, that sounds exhausting.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Oh yeah, I mean I think they're exhausting. And I
think the in doses very healthy and important part of
getting back out there because the personal networks that got
disrupted during COVID. Many people live in smaller towns. Even
a big city becomes a small town on the APPS.
Maybe not New York City, maybe not LA But I've
(23:51):
got friends, for instance, in Knoxville or Cincinnati or that
are you know, a small to mid sized city, those
become small. I mean I live in the San Francisco
Bay Area, south of San Francisco, in a suburb, and
I remember when I was on the apps, Jamy. I
was running a fairly large company at the time, and
I didn't think about this, but I put myself on
(24:11):
the APPS. I got out there and I started seeing
people in my company all the APPS, and I thought, oh,
they're seeing me, of course, because I'm seeing them, What
the heck. So it's not what you think in some respects,
but I think an important part of the mix.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
The thing is too, like you said, you're seeing them,
they're seeing you, and it's like, okay, we're all trying
to figure this thing out. I've only done hinge and
let me tell you something that makes me cringe. And
maybe you're into this. I don't know, but you know
the little how you have the option to like say
something and you can hit the voice yes.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
To me, it's like.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
Less is more like I'd rather just know sort of
the facts about you, what you're looking for. You can
be direct in certain things, but then those options that
allow you to get a little bit more personal, Like
anytime I hit play, like sometimes for entertainment, we would
just hit play and like listen to what they would say,
and the voice recordings always made me cringe. Like on
(25:11):
the profile, it wasn't a message like to me, it
was just on their main page like they'd tell some
story or say a joke. And any thoughts on profiles.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
My biggest thing for a profile would be be real
in terms of who you are. If you have kids,
celebrate that you have kids, if you have certain religious faith,
put it out there who you are in terms of
what you really like to do and how you spend
your time, let people know who you are. Do I
want to have more kids, so I not want to
have more kids anything that helps select out the wrong
people and select them the right people. And in terms
(25:43):
of that voice piece, I mean, you're a you're a personality.
So what people are going to do is they're going
to try to backwards engineer googling you and finding you right,
which is not that hard to do. It's pretty easy
to find people in terms of who they are and
match them up with their profile.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
It's the other thing I think you.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Should expect, but do what you feel comfortable with. You know,
a lot of pictures are you know, quadruple filtered and
don't really look like the person, which is another thing
that I recommend against.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Oh, putting up filtered photos.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Well, I mean filtered, there's filtered, then there's like altered.
That's another big aspect that I think is a negative.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
When it comes to dating and kids. At what point
is it recommended to have that conversation when it comes
to dating and kids, at what point is it recommended
(26:43):
to have that conversation?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
This is super important.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
I don't think you should introduce anyone to your kids
that you are not super serious with, and that includes
introducing them. That includes explaining to your ex there's this person,
and I want you to know because I'm going to
introduce the kids to them. Because I think giving your
ex heads up or your partner you're separated from, I'm
going to introduce the kids to this person. I think
(27:08):
even offering to your spouse if you want to meet
this person because they're going to be around our kids.
I want to give you that opportunity. That's also super
adult to do that. But I would say you've got
to be in a fairly serious relationship like this is
an important person in my life. Otherwise you're putting the
kids through a rent and repeat cycle and it's not healthy.
(27:32):
I'm not judging that. When you know, you know, there
are loved first sight stories. I don't know how many
are real. I hope all of them are. But you've
got to take it case by case. But I think
there's no rule on time, but there should be a
rule on this is serious.
Speaker 5 (27:50):
What are some key things that help make our second
half our best half?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
So another quote from Susan Reagan, who's my guest this week.
I introduced her as a separation divorce expert, and she said, John, actually,
let me correct you. She said, what I'd really do
is help people reconnect to themselves. I was like, wow,
that's counterintuitive. So people come to you and they say, Susan,
help us get divorced or separated, and you say to them,
(28:17):
I'm going to help you improve your relationship with yourself.
But if you dig a layer deeper, that is what
the opportunity is at midlife, and it it's the opportunity
in separation divorce because you have all of this experience
that led you up to this point in your life.
You have your wisdom, you have your lived experience, you
have your relationships, all that you've been through, and now
(28:39):
you're in this cauldron of separation and divorce if you're
going through that, so this is the ultimate time to
step back and to take stock and say who am
I at this point in my life and what do
I want for the second half by life? And so
I think making your second half your best half is being.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Happy with yourself.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
So if you're looking and saying I'm going to find
the ideal person who's going to make me happy, you're
starting way behind because you need to show up happy
and that partner is a bonus in your life. I
think that's really what it's about. And if you show
up grounded, positive, happy, with your two feet on the ground,
(29:20):
you're going to attract the right person and you're going
to make clear headed, positive decisions that are creative coming
out of love and creativity for your future. And that's
going to chart a great course. And it may be
you also change your career, which.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
A lot of people do at midlife.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
It may be that you become a better friend to
people in your circle. It may be that you become
the present connected parent you never were before. See, this
is another thing that's really important. You know, when your
marriage fails. Marriage has multiple components. Right, there's the economic relationship.
I call it Slavit incorporated or brown incorporated. Right, it's
(29:57):
like an economic piece. There is the kids. There's the
intimate relationship. When all those other pieces fall apart, it's
just about being a parent and a co parent. So
maybe part of the second half is being the amazing
parent to your kids you haven't been yet. So to me,
it's about putting yourself in the center and discovering what
matters for you and letting that chart positive second half.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
You know what I love so much about the tagline
of making your second half your best half is it's
just this beautiful reminder that it's never too late and
just because you've been stuck in some old patterns, finally
the veil has been lifted, then run with it. And
I love that tagline is just such a beautiful reminder
(30:40):
that you can have the life you deserve, you are
worthy of it, and it's possible.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Very well said Emmy.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
It's like, Okay, this is my second half and I
want to make the best of it. So, yeah, how
can I go into this next relationship happy, healed, healthy?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Amen?
Speaker 5 (30:57):
Yeah, Because at twenty five when I first got married,
I don't know that I had that perspective. In my
young twenties, I just wanted to get married.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
I got married a decade later that you had more
like thirty five. But who are we at that age?
We're young. Twenty five is like college.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Thirty five is just.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Getting a sense of yourself. And so I think that
when we're at that age and we're getting married, we
have a mindset who we are at that time, and
we make decisions based on who we are at that time.
Fast forward to midlife. We have more experience, more learning,
hopefully more emotional growth. We have a wider range of
decisions available to us.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
Yeah, I'm still thankful for it. And I'm thankful for
the life that we had and that we created, and
the two beautiful kids we were able to adopt, And
there are good memories mixed in there. I think sometimes
when you're in the process, you get stuck on all
the negative and the bad. But it's important to reflect
on the good things. And I'm grateful to Ben and
I were able to be amicable. Gratitude just been a
(31:57):
huge part of my life, especially the hard things. So
in that vein, I would love to know if you
currently have four things today that you are thankful for.
They can be big or small. I mean, it could
be something real deep that you want to offer up,
or it could be some TV show that you're enjoying
at the moment.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
That's a great way to end, and I would say
my wife, who's the love of my life. Thank God
most still when I say it, my kids and my
relationship with my kids, the opportunity I have in this
world to lend my voice to build the next thing
that I'm doing in terms of have time with John,
(32:38):
I mean little things beautiful sunny day in northern California.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Today we live in America.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
The greatest country on Earth and the history of the world,
and we have blessings here that few do that I
think it's important to be grateful for.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
I think sometimes that's what we can do, is if
you can look outside and see the sun is out,
or you can see a bird chirping, or go feel
the grass on your feet.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I know that sometimes in.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
The lows of the lows, the hard days of separation
and divorce, it's like, oh, how can I even think
of something to be thankful for? But that's often when
you just need to look outside and start picking things
the air that you're breathing.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
A podcast you.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
Get to listen to, I'm sure people listening to Halftime
with John that's something that's now on their gratitude list
of there's somebody out there that's sharing their personal experience,
having experts on dedicating their second half to service.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
In this way of.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Taking what you've been through and now using it for good,
it's you know, what does this make possible? And you're
using your gift in such an amazing way that I
think it's helping a lot of men and women. But
I love that you have a heart for men and
making sure that they feel safe and seen and supported.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
And I'm very grateful for this chat. John.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
I'll link your Instagram in the show notes, which is
just at halftime with John and links to the podcast
and your website and everything and little behind the scenes.
We're chatting on Monday, but this is going to go
up on Thursday. And you said your guest this week,
what days do your episodes go up?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Usually Tuesday, So our next episode goes live on twentieth
of August.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
Well, when people are listening to this, that'll have been
two days ago.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
It will be two days ago.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Yes, so they can go up and catch that chat.
Since you referenced it a couple of times, I'm sure
people will want to go here and listen. It sounds
like it's going to be a good one. And congrats
on the second half. And if you don't mind me asking,
I'm going to close this very personal question. Since you
have mentioned your age a couple of times, how old
were you when you got married the second time?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Fifty five?
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Okay, so I can at least find someone in the
next twelve years.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
No doubts.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Thank you John, thank you Emmy,
Good cast up thing, little food for yourself life.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh it's pretty bad.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Hey, it's pretty beautiful than beautiful.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
For that for a little more than it's exciting, said
he your kick in with four Thing.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
With Amy Brown, Happy Thursday, four Things.
Speaker 5 (00:34):
Today's episode is one that well, I never thought I
would really relate to, since I never thought divorce would
happen to me, but it did. And I am thankful
for conversations around the topic for sure, and those that
are willing to share their experiences with us, like my
guest today, John Slavitt, who is founder of Halftime with John,
(00:55):
a network for men at midlife. And you have a
podcast to John called Have Time with John as well,
which is dedicated to helping men successfully navigate separation and divorce.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Hey John, Amy, Hello, good to see you.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Good to see you too.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
And I know your tagline is make your second half
your best half, which I love and it's a goal
that I have for myself as a woman, especially in
this season of my life now that I'm divorced and
entering in the second chapter of things. And I know
you work primarily with men, and my audiences mostly women,
but our conversation will serve any human going through this
(01:34):
type of season. Even someone happily married I was thinking
about it, could be listening to this right now and
they may have a sister or a best friend or
someone in their life that is navigating divorce, and after
hearing our conversation, they may know how to better come
alongside someone that is going through a divorce, a separation,
co parenting, and how.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
To best support them.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Now, the four things that John and I are going
to touch on are surviving separate and divorce, dating and
making that second half your best half, co parenting, connecting
with kids, and then we'll close with four things gratitude.
So John, I want to get into surviving the separation
and divorce, so we'll just go with that out of
the gate and hear some of your story. And you
(02:19):
are happily remarried, so I'm excited to hear how that
also came about. And you're the proud data four kids.
But let's take it back to when you first knew
that you were going to separate and what that process
looked like for you, and then I can share some
of my experience as well.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
This is all very fresh for me because I'm in
the villa of my first season, and we've been interviewing
all kinds of experts who have a perspective on separation divorce,
and many of them I worked with when I was
going through my own. So I'm interviewing these people and
having these emotions come back up years later because I
got separated, you know, seven years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
It's been a long time.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It's painful, and as you know, at some point you
reach a place in your marriage that you never thought
you'd reach going into it. No one gets married thinking
they're going to be.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Separated and divorced.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
No one does right when you walk down the aisle,
and at some point you reach that point. And it's
almost like being in a little boat in the middle
of the ocean alone, which is the way I would
analogize it, in the middle of a storm, and the
only way to go through it is straight into the
storm and through that pain. And I think that the
(03:32):
biggest lessons for me having gone through it are building
a support system. The support system might be a therapist,
it might be a confidant you're close to, having practices
that keep you healthy both mentally and physically, and understanding
when you're in it that you will get through it
because when you're in the middle of the pain of
(03:53):
separation divorce, it's consuming and it doesn't feel like it's
going to end, especially if it becomes litigious and you've
got lawyers involved. God forbid, go to trial, which is
a very small percentage, It's less than five percent. I
believe that the divorces go to trial most settle up court.
So I've got lots of lessons to share, and I
(04:15):
think on a personal level, what I learned amy is
fifty one percent of the battle is sustaining your own
mental and emotional health. It's at least fifty one percent.
Forty nine percent or less is the practical and tactical
pieces of how do I go through the separation, how
do we tell our kids, how do we tell our community?
(04:35):
When does a lawyer get introduced? What's the process? That's
the minority of it, but the majority of it is
betting up a support system. And the final thing I'll
tell you is women naturally create communities of support around themselves.
Women seem to be naturally good at this. A lot
of the men where my friends have gone through this,
or people listening to my podcast, they don't have that
(04:57):
support system. Somehow that came up as a kid to
a young adult to an adult man, thinking I've got
to suck it up and go it a month through
life's biggest challenges. Wrong, You've got to do the opposite.
So it's painful, you have to go through it directly
into it, and you've got to build a support system
and a framework for yourself to be successful.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
So in your experience with people that you've talked to
and other friends, or just even in your interviews, is
there a common suggestion of how long a separation should be.
I know that every circumstance might be different, Like if
you are at risk in some way, shape or form,
then you'd get out. I'm not talking about that. But
(05:40):
let's say there's a decision being made, and how do
you know you're making the right decision, and how long
do you make the separation, especially if there are kids involved?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Is there a sweet spot?
Speaker 5 (05:54):
Because we took about a year and we are very
private about it our inner circle, I know, but publicly
we didn't talk about it at all, And I would
say it was a year of couples therapy and complete separation.
We were not living together and that felt right for
me and I assume it's just different for everybody.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
But is there a number.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
That's a great question. I don't think there's one number.
I mean, I think it's very situational. There are examples
that go from years and years, which I think is
really tough and I don't think is good for anyone.
And they are examples that are three to twelve months.
And again I'm a lay expert here, meaning I've gone
through it myself, but I've interviewed lots of experts to
(06:38):
focus on this and my next episode, which hits tomorrow.
Susan Reagan is an expert therapist Marriage Families Couples works
with a lot of couples to separation divorce, and she
calls the first phase discernment, and what she means by
that is that sometimes couples come in and they're trying
to decide what are we doing and she talks about
(07:00):
three doors. Door number one is this is too painful.
We're separated, but we're doing nothing right now, like we're
just going to be separated. We're living separately or apart
or together. Door number two is we're working on the
relationship because we want to save it. Door number three
is we're definitely getting divorced, and the purpose of therapy
(07:21):
or the separation is to navigate to a divorce. So
the first thing I think any couple needs to do
is figure out which door you're walking through one, two,
or three if you know you're getting divorced, and if
one spouse says, you know what this is happening. And
in America, by the way, seventy percent of the time
that's the woman initiates.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Thirty percent it's the man.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
So if it's happening and you know you're going through it,
the biggest thing is taking care of the kids when
they're kids in the middle, and so it's taking time
to get on the same page about how you communicate
with the kids, with each other, with your community, with
their school, across the board. And that takes some time
to get on the same page because when you're mad
(08:02):
at each other and you're in a breakdown, you've got
to overcome that to figure out how to communicate on
the same page, even if you don't agree with that communication.
So I think that the biggest factor is what are
we doing? And the second biggest factor is some of
their kids is getting on the same page. And so
I think Most separations are in your plus and some
(08:23):
much longer.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
Yeah, I think that after we had decided to get
a divorce, So that was the separation that was probably
us trying to figure out what door we were going
to go through. Was that first year, and then the
actual divorce process was another year. Some of that just
because of all the work that needs to be done
(08:44):
in you know, Okay, well, how are we dividing this up,
and where are we going to live? Like you said,
communicating with the proper people, communicating with our kids, all
of that takes time. And we did get married. I
was about two twenty five, so we've been married for
almost two decades. So when you have that much life
(09:04):
with someone, there is some stuff you certainly need to
divide up. But I kind of thought it was going
to go a lot faster because it's not like we
had this crazy life. But I found that all of
the different things that you have to do if you're
trying to do it in a thoughtful way, it took time.
And Ben and I Ben as my ex husband, and
(09:27):
we had two words that we focused on during our divorce,
and they were thoughtful and kind, and we treated it
like a mantra. When we were communicating good for you,
we also had to know when to walk away, and
it was like, Okay, this is where we press pause
and we'll pick back up when we can have a
better talk. But I just didn't realize how nasty the
(09:48):
majority of divorces can get. And so that would be
my encouragement is just even if staying on your side
of the street, you can control your emotions and stay
thoughtful and kind, because it I guess it's rare that
both will remain that way. But what was your experience.
Did you feel like you handled it well at the time,
or looking back you learned more after them and like, ooh,
(10:11):
I could have done that better.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I think from a respectfulness and kindness perspective, I have
it well. I think from a process perspective, I could
have done some things different because I think some of
my actions made the process longer than it needed to be.
But I think what you're saying is super important. And again,
when they're kids in the middle and you want to
(10:34):
get to the other side, you need to think about
the relationship you want with your partner with your ex
on the other side, and behave every step of the
way with the intention of realizing that ultimate relationship and
service of your kids.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
That's difficult. We're in the middle of it.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
Before we started recording, you said that divorce is the
gift that keeps on giving, especially when there's kids involved.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
If you don't have kids and you're getting.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
Divorced, it's still very difficult. But once you're done with
that relationship, you can be done with the kids. Though
there is that layer of like, yeah, you're never done,
and I feel I'm constantly facing new challenges and like, oh,
I haven't learned how to navigate this one yet. And
I always like to have the word yet is because
(11:19):
we will learn, we will get through.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
And I like that you.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
Said you've got to just go into the storm. That's
what buffaloes do. Buffalos go into the storm, and cows
turn away and they end up in the storm longer.
So sometimes you can try to turn away to avoid
what's coming, but you might as well go right in now.
For you, I don't know how personal you get with
your story, but in that season of deciding that it's
(11:45):
going to be divorced, because like you said, none of
us go into marriage thinking the divorce is going to
happen to us.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Do you feel like you were a buffalo or a cow?
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, maybe both. I think that I was a cow
for some number of years. I think my ex and
I both were because we were having a tough time.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But I think that most couples.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
That end up divorced to go through some period of
time where their instinct is that this is not working
and this is painful and there is something better for me,
and they stay in it for all.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
The obvious reasons, the kids being the number one. A
lot of people wait.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Until kids are out of the house or kids are
in college. And I'm not judging anyone for their actions,
but that's the cowpies. I think once I knew where
we were headed and what I wanted for the rest
of my life, I was a buffalo's buffalo, and I
think I helped us get through it through initiating and
being persistent and bringing experts to bear to help me
(12:45):
in my ex. So maybe a bit of both.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Well, So you've mentioned therapy experts. Those are some tools.
What are some other tools.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
That you used?
Speaker 5 (13:04):
So you've mentioned therapy experts, those are some tools. What
are some other tools that you used and that you
would encourage other men especially to use in that processing.
But obviously women can do it too. I think that,
like you said, we create our community and you know
we want that support. But some women are wired like
(13:25):
men in that way. So what other tools were helpful
for you? Like, did you journal, did you go on walks,
did you meet friends for coffee? What else was in
the mix besides just therapy?
Speaker 3 (13:37):
I did a bunch of things. I think guys need
to find other guys they can be themselves with. And
sometimes that's not the guy who went to high school with,
and sometimes it's not the guy you would say is
my best friend right now. Need to find men you
can be authentic with, and that may be emotions and
trauma from the past and experiences that you need to
(13:59):
actually get through or be able to communicate or feel.
And so there are amazing groups from men out there,
and I've interviewed some of these founders. One is called
MELD Men's Emotional Leadership Group. Can google it, amazing group
that helps guys grow emotionally. Another group is called every Man.
It's ev r y m AN, So if you google
(14:22):
ev r YMN. Similar group brings guys together to figure
out how to get in touch with their emotions, but
in a way that's very practical in service of their growth.
Another group's called Mankind Project been around forever and does
retreats for men around emotional growth. So I think it's
first five.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
To community of men.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
The second piece is very personal. You need to find
ways to experience joy and happiness, even if it's for
like thirty minutes a day.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
What do you love doing.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I grew up playing basketball, I used to shoot around.
I'm a big swimmer. When I'm in the pool, I
find I can disconnect and I do hot yoga. I
do the one hundred and five degree yoga, and when
you're in there, you cannot have toen think about anything.
So I think the second thing is find something that.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Brings you joy.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I think the third piece is structure. So when you're
going through major changes, you're going to anchor your calendar
and your life in things that are consistent. Put them
on your calendar. I'm taking a walk with this friend,
I am doing my workout, I am making time for myself.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Those things are structures really important in those difficult times.
So I think it's things like that community of men
where you can be authentic e've been emotional and work
on your growth personal habits that bring you joy in
that structure.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
What are you doing as a dad to make sure
that your children grow up differently?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Glad you asked that I have two girls and two boys,
So my kids range from nineteen seventeen, ten and five.
My stepson's five, so my youngest is ten. I think
the biggest things are talking about in an age appropriate
way your own emotions or you have felt sad or down,
And I'll tell you my second episode of the season.
(16:05):
My guest guy named bj Wasserman is a big Men's
surtreved men's personal growth leader. He tells an amazing story
about catching himself getting super angry at his son, like
wanting to be physical with him. His son had just
DoD something it really poed him, and he caught himself
enraged and he was able to kind of go a
(16:28):
level underneath the anger, because you know, anger is a
surface emotion. There's always something underneath sadness loss me connected
to that and in that moment with his son, and
they have this amazing bond in that moment.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So it's those two things.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
It's sharing personal emotions with your child, And it's looking
for opportunities when you are emotional to go a little
deeper and make that connection with a child, particularly when
there's some kind of conflict going on, because right if
you're raising kids and boys, there's plenty of opportunity for conflict.
They're going crazy, they're misbehaving, their physical they are hyper.
(17:06):
There's so many kids now we're also add who or
just running around like crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So I'd say it's those two things.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
How did you tell your kids or would have experts
said that are coming on your podcast? And again it
could be case by case, but I don't even know
if my excident I did it properly, but we kind
of divided. I took my daughter out and we sat
one on one and he took our son out, and
that's how we initiated. Of course, they knew we had
(17:33):
been separated, and even in our separation, the kids didn't
go back and forth. And even in the beginning of
our divorce, we had an apartment in a house, and
we would go back and forth as the adults and
the kids stayed put. But when it came time for
the conversation, I initiated with our daughter and he initiated
(17:54):
with the son and then we followed up with the
others later. But we had the one on one initial
talk like I don't even know if we sought advice
on that, but it worked for us, so I didn't
know if there was a way to do it.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You know what, it sounds like you did it great.
And I think the key principle is humans and of
course little kids are just little humans. It's more about
the feel of what you're saying than the exact words.
Is it delivered with love, with authenticity, And that's the
number one thing because you can say a lot of words,
and if it's disconnected from your heart, then the kid's
(18:31):
gonna you know, read that kids are just feeling right
machines right. I think beyond that, I think the themes
in general from talking to experts are, you know, letting
them know that you still love your partner even though
this is happening, that you and your partner have had
a great relationship, and that sometimes relationships change and they
were entering a new phase in the relationship. I think
(18:53):
another is consistency, like, hey, this is happening, but your
life is going to be the same. Your life is
going to be as consistent as possible. Where you live,
where you go to school, you know, the time you
have with your parents, it's going to change, but you've
got both your parents involved. It's those kinds of themes
and I think fewer words and you know, more hugs
(19:13):
and authenticity.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Just make sure that it's not too f you, right,
I guess you just it's case by case.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
You have to judge, like what your kids are able
to handle.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
You raise a good point.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I think it's important that again age appropriate words, but
that the kids do understand what's happening. So if you're
getting divorced and you don't say the word divorced, or
if you're actually getting separated and you're going to live
separately and you don't explain that, that would be a miss.
Then I would ask them, do you have questions and
what are they?
Speaker 5 (19:42):
And they may not have them right away, but also
saying this door is always opened when you are ready
to talk about it, if you want to talk about it,
if you want to write anything down, I'm here for that.
So let's jump into the dating side of divorce. And
I'm sort of new to them at layer. My ex
(20:02):
started dating almost immediately, which I guess is pretty common,
and I have been slow to join the dating party.
But what are your thoughts on how do you start
that process and when do you know that you're ready.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Well, let me covey at this by saying that I
think most people aren't ready when they get separated to
date again in a serious way or look for a
serious relationship. I think that it takes some time, an
introspection to look and say, Okay, I've just failed at
a marriage, which I didn't think would happen. Whether you're
in it for a few years or twenty years, that's
a major event, and I think you have to take
(20:39):
a responsible perspective, meaning what was my part.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
You can't point the finger right.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
At your spouse and say it was their fault and
therefore I'm ready to date again. It takes two to
tango right. You're in a relationship with someone. There are cases,
obviously where there's abuse and there's something unusual. Well, obviously
that's different, but I'm talking in a decently normal relationship.
So I think you need to take some time and
understand who am I at this point in my life,
(21:06):
what do I really want? What have I learned from
the relationship that I'm getting out of, because if you
take all your hurt, roll that up and go forward
into the apps, into a new relationship uncertain of what
you want, You're just going to bring all that crap
to someone else, hurt someone else, confuse someone else. Now
I'm not judging, okay, because there are people who rebound
(21:29):
immediately and start dating, go and createze on the apps,
and it's an individual choice. But I think personally, from
what I see in my experience, you need some time.
Trust your intuition. You will know when you are ready,
but it may take some time. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
I think that my fear around realizing that I was
going to get divorce was knowing, Okay, I don't want
to end up like my dad who was married four
times and going from one relationship to the next.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
I know guys who have been married four times, and
I mean, that's it's tough.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
Are apps like the way to go when you're thinking
about dating? I know you mentioned apps like a couple
of times when you threw that out there, and I
guess for me, apps seemed a little bit weird because
they came about when I was married, and so I
never used them, And so now being single in my
forties and thinking about getting on an app.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
It's very weird.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Oh yeah, totally weird. I'm ad fifties. So when I
was dating my ex and got married, no one used apps,
and now it's it's just par.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
For the course.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
And I think there's a usefulness to them. They are
apps that are more selective than you know, but you've
got to pay a bit more for and I think
that it's a part of the game.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
But it's also a bit of a drug.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
And I think most people who had been on them
for a while or completely sick of them. But my
wife and I connected on an app. So when I
met my wife for the first time in the spring
of twenty twenty, this was like a COVID date amy
that COVID had hit March of twenty twenty. We took
a walk in April of twenty twenty. And I'll give
credit to Bumble, which you know bumbles, the app where
(23:03):
women get to decide if they want to connect with you.
For all of the negatives that you would hear out there,
I would thank that app for my marriage and for
my relationship. But I think that you've got to know
who you are and what you want and be overt
about it and kind of hold to some standards as
opposed to just going crazy and you know, kind of
(23:24):
meeting three people a day and.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
You know, or worse, that sounds exhausting.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Oh yeah, I mean I think they're exhausting. And I
think the in doses very healthy and important part of
getting back out there because the personal networks that got
disrupted during COVID. Many people live in smaller towns. Even
a big city becomes a small town on the APPS.
Maybe not New York City, maybe not LA But I've
(23:51):
got friends, for instance, in Knoxville or Cincinnati or that
are you know, a small to mid sized city, those
become small. I mean I live in the San Francisco
Bay Area, south of San Francisco, in a suburb, and
I remember when I was on the apps, Jamy. I
was running a fairly large company at the time, and
I didn't think about this, but I put myself on
(24:11):
the APPS. I got out there and I started seeing
people in my company all the APPS, and I thought, oh,
they're seeing me, of course, because I'm seeing them, What
the heck. So it's not what you think in some respects,
but I think an important part of the mix.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
The thing is too, like you said, you're seeing them,
they're seeing you, and it's like, okay, we're all trying
to figure this thing out. I've only done hinge and
let me tell you something that makes me cringe. And
maybe you're into this. I don't know, but you know
the little how you have the option to like say
something and you can hit the voice yes.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
To me, it's like.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
Less is more like I'd rather just know sort of
the facts about you, what you're looking for. You can
be direct in certain things, but then those options that
allow you to get a little bit more personal, Like
anytime I hit play, like sometimes for entertainment, we would
just hit play and like listen to what they would say,
and the voice recordings always made me cringe. Like on
(25:11):
the profile, it wasn't a message like to me, it
was just on their main page like they'd tell some
story or say a joke. And any thoughts on profiles.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
My biggest thing for a profile would be be real
in terms of who you are. If you have kids,
celebrate that you have kids, if you have certain religious faith,
put it out there who you are in terms of
what you really like to do and how you spend
your time, let people know who you are. Do I
want to have more kids, so I not want to
have more kids anything that helps select out the wrong
people and select them the right people. And in terms
(25:43):
of that voice piece, I mean, you're a you're a personality.
So what people are going to do is they're going
to try to backwards engineer googling you and finding you right,
which is not that hard to do. It's pretty easy
to find people in terms of who they are and
match them up with their profile.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
It's the other thing I think you.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Should expect, but do what you feel comfortable with. You know,
a lot of pictures are you know, quadruple filtered and
don't really look like the person, which is another thing
that I recommend against.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Oh, putting up filtered photos.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Well, I mean filtered, there's filtered, then there's like altered.
That's another big aspect that I think is a negative.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
When it comes to dating and kids. At what point
is it recommended to have that conversation when it comes
to dating and kids, at what point is it recommended
(26:43):
to have that conversation?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
This is super important.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
I don't think you should introduce anyone to your kids
that you are not super serious with, and that includes
introducing them. That includes explaining to your ex there's this person,
and I want you to know because I'm going to
introduce the kids to them. Because I think giving your
ex heads up or your partner you're separated from, I'm
going to introduce the kids to this person. I think
(27:08):
even offering to your spouse if you want to meet
this person because they're going to be around our kids.
I want to give you that opportunity. That's also super
adult to do that. But I would say you've got
to be in a fairly serious relationship like this is
an important person in my life. Otherwise you're putting the
kids through a rent and repeat cycle and it's not healthy.
(27:32):
I'm not judging that. When you know, you know, there
are loved first sight stories. I don't know how many
are real. I hope all of them are. But you've
got to take it case by case. But I think
there's no rule on time, but there should be a
rule on this is serious.
Speaker 5 (27:50):
What are some key things that help make our second
half our best half?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
So another quote from Susan Reagan, who's my guest this week.
I introduced her as a separation divorce expert, and she said, John, actually,
let me correct you. She said, what I'd really do
is help people reconnect to themselves. I was like, wow,
that's counterintuitive. So people come to you and they say, Susan,
help us get divorced or separated, and you say to them,
(28:17):
I'm going to help you improve your relationship with yourself.
But if you dig a layer deeper, that is what
the opportunity is at midlife, and it it's the opportunity
in separation divorce because you have all of this experience
that led you up to this point in your life.
You have your wisdom, you have your lived experience, you
have your relationships, all that you've been through, and now
(28:39):
you're in this cauldron of separation and divorce if you're
going through that, so this is the ultimate time to
step back and to take stock and say who am
I at this point in my life and what do
I want for the second half by life? And so
I think making your second half your best half is being.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Happy with yourself.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
So if you're looking and saying I'm going to find
the ideal person who's going to make me happy, you're
starting way behind because you need to show up happy
and that partner is a bonus in your life. I
think that's really what it's about. And if you show
up grounded, positive, happy, with your two feet on the ground,
(29:20):
you're going to attract the right person and you're going
to make clear headed, positive decisions that are creative coming
out of love and creativity for your future. And that's
going to chart a great course. And it may be
you also change your career, which.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
A lot of people do at midlife.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
It may be that you become a better friend to
people in your circle. It may be that you become
the present connected parent you never were before. See, this
is another thing that's really important. You know, when your
marriage fails. Marriage has multiple components. Right, there's the economic relationship.
I call it Slavit incorporated or brown incorporated. Right, it's
(29:57):
like an economic piece. There is the kids. There's the
intimate relationship. When all those other pieces fall apart, it's
just about being a parent and a co parent. So
maybe part of the second half is being the amazing
parent to your kids you haven't been yet. So to me,
it's about putting yourself in the center and discovering what
matters for you and letting that chart positive second half.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
You know what I love so much about the tagline
of making your second half your best half is it's
just this beautiful reminder that it's never too late and
just because you've been stuck in some old patterns, finally
the veil has been lifted, then run with it. And
I love that tagline is just such a beautiful reminder
(30:40):
that you can have the life you deserve, you are
worthy of it, and it's possible.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Very well said Emmy.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
It's like, Okay, this is my second half and I
want to make the best of it. So, yeah, how
can I go into this next relationship happy, healed, healthy?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Amen?
Speaker 5 (30:57):
Yeah, Because at twenty five when I first got married,
I don't know that I had that perspective. In my
young twenties, I just wanted to get married.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
I got married a decade later that you had more
like thirty five. But who are we at that age?
We're young. Twenty five is like college.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Thirty five is just.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Getting a sense of yourself. And so I think that
when we're at that age and we're getting married, we
have a mindset who we are at that time, and
we make decisions based on who we are at that time.
Fast forward to midlife. We have more experience, more learning,
hopefully more emotional growth. We have a wider range of
decisions available to us.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
Yeah, I'm still thankful for it. And I'm thankful for
the life that we had and that we created, and
the two beautiful kids we were able to adopt, And
there are good memories mixed in there. I think sometimes
when you're in the process, you get stuck on all
the negative and the bad. But it's important to reflect
on the good things. And I'm grateful to Ben and
I were able to be amicable. Gratitude just been a
(31:57):
huge part of my life, especially the hard things. So
in that vein, I would love to know if you
currently have four things today that you are thankful for.
They can be big or small. I mean, it could
be something real deep that you want to offer up,
or it could be some TV show that you're enjoying
at the moment.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
That's a great way to end, and I would say
my wife, who's the love of my life. Thank God
most still when I say it, my kids and my
relationship with my kids, the opportunity I have in this
world to lend my voice to build the next thing
that I'm doing in terms of have time with John,
(32:38):
I mean little things beautiful sunny day in northern California.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Today we live in America.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
The greatest country on Earth and the history of the world,
and we have blessings here that few do that I
think it's important to be grateful for.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
I think sometimes that's what we can do, is if
you can look outside and see the sun is out,
or you can see a bird chirping, or go feel
the grass on your feet.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I know that sometimes in.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
The lows of the lows, the hard days of separation
and divorce, it's like, oh, how can I even think
of something to be thankful for? But that's often when
you just need to look outside and start picking things
the air that you're breathing.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
A podcast you.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
Get to listen to, I'm sure people listening to Halftime
with John that's something that's now on their gratitude list
of there's somebody out there that's sharing their personal experience,
having experts on dedicating their second half to service.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
In this way of.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Taking what you've been through and now using it for good,
it's you know, what does this make possible? And you're
using your gift in such an amazing way that I
think it's helping a lot of men and women. But
I love that you have a heart for men and
making sure that they feel safe and seen and supported.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
And I'm very grateful for this chat. John.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
I'll link your Instagram in the show notes, which is
just at halftime with John and links to the podcast
and your website and everything and little behind the scenes.
We're chatting on Monday, but this is going to go
up on Thursday. And you said your guest this week,
what days do your episodes go up?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Usually Tuesday, So our next episode goes live on twentieth
of August.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
Well, when people are listening to this, that'll have been
two days ago.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
It will be two days ago.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Yes, so they can go up and catch that chat.
Since you referenced it a couple of times, I'm sure
people will want to go here and listen. It sounds
like it's going to be a good one. And congrats
on the second half. And if you don't mind me asking,
I'm going to close this very personal question. Since you
have mentioned your age a couple of times, how old
were you when you got married the second time?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Fifty five?
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Okay, so I can at least find someone in the
next twelve years.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
No doubts.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Thank you John, thank you Emmy,
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
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