The Truth About ‘Let Them’: A Mel Robbins Deep Dive

Kat takes the lead as teacher in this episode, walking Amy through a deep dive on Mel Robbins, the controversy around her Let Them Theory, and the viral poem by Cassie Phillips that started it all. Together, Amy and Kat explore plagiarism claims, the idea of “cruel optimism,” and why so many self-help messages start to feel like sales pitches. They share what first drew them to Mel, what’s changed over time, and the 5 questions we can all ask before deciding who to trust in the self-help world.

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HOSTS:

Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy

Kat Van Buren // @KatVanburen

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
All right, break it down.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you ever have feelings that you just won't Amy
and Cat gotcha Covin locking No, brother, Ladies and folks,
do you just follow Ann the spirit where it's all
the front over real stuff to the chill stuff and
the m but Swayne, sometimes the best thing you can
do it just.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
You feel things.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
This is feeling things with.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Amy and Kat.

Speaker 4 (00:29):
Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling things. I'm Amy and I'm Kat.
And feeling of the day is annoyed because the question is,
I mean, is there anyone we can trust anymore? And
if so, how do we know we can trust them?
Because I already feel like I had to let go
of Jay Shetty and now Mel Robbins, so I need
to know who we can trust.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Yeah, and I'm glad you're asking that question because you
know what today.

Speaker 4 (00:54):
Is the Mel Robin's Deep Dive.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
It's our first official deep dive. So this is something
we'll do from time to time. I'll do it with
you and then you'll do it with me, and we'll
take turns teaching each other something. And it can be
about a person, a thing in pop culture, just a
random idea we want to learn about and we're starting
with Mel Robbins and her let them theory, and you

(01:19):
are the teacher and I'm the teacher. I am the student,
you are the student, and.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
I was the biggest Mel Robins fan. And not saying
that I'm not in general, I still follow I'll dabble.
I like guess that she has on. I just have
found myself increasingly bummed. I guess would be the feeling
of like or just kind of this weird feeling okay, disappointed,

(01:45):
could work or just confuse like it's it's more of
a feeling like I don't even know that I've got
the exact word other.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
Than like ick, yeah an eh, I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:57):
Getting it, just like sometimes I'm like eugh, I was
reading her book. I have followed her for years and
enjoyed a lot of her stuff. I have learned a
lot from her. I've learned a lot from her guests.
I have shared a lot of her information. I've regurgitated
it on my own podcasts and quoting her, of course

(02:18):
not as my own stuff, but it's someone that I
was like, oh, we need to be paying attention to
this person. And I do think that she is helping
in a certain way. But I know through your deep
dive research you wouldn't necessarily define her as a helper,
and I'm very curious as to why that is in

(02:39):
what category we actually should put her in. But back
to her latest book, I was trying to read it,
and that's when the just really started to seep in
because of the controversy around let them theory and where
it originally came from. Because as an avid follower of hers,
I know when I first saw her post about it,
I remember being in my.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Closet, well, you're getting to have yourself.

Speaker 4 (03:02):
Okay, I won't get ahead because I know you're the teacher,
but I'm just letting you know. That's when, yeah, the
and the unease started to set in. Yeah, because I
couldn't even finish the book because that was a controversy
that gained a lot of attention online. There's a lot
of podcasts about it, there's a lot of threads about
it all over the place, and so you can do

(03:23):
your own research into it, but it just gave me
the the ick and I couldn't finish it, which then
those articles and podcasts led me into more research, and
then now I'm just.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Disenchanted. Yeah, that's a good word. She's somebody you or
I know. This is how I felt. I want to
like her. I want to like her so bad, but
there's something also, yes, this disenchantment with that. You're like, oh,
the screen has been lifted, like we see behind the
curtain and we don't like what we see. And one

(03:57):
thing that I kind of relate it back to is
there was there was a job I had at one
point in my life and it was like my dream job,
Like I could not believe that I was chosen to
work there. And I started working there in this this
very evident, like unethical thing was just running around the workplace.

(04:22):
And this is in the mental health field. There's a
bunch of therapists, so it's it was pretty black and
white that it was unethical, but everybody knew about it.
And that's what led me to quit because I said
to my I loved my boss. I looked up to
him so much. I thought he was very wise, and
he wasn't like in charge of the thing that was unethical.
He was like stepped down. But I said to him,

(04:44):
I said, I can't stay here anymore because I know
about this, and you know about this, and we all
know about this, and I'm not privy to a lot
of the insider information, but you are. So if you're
showing us this and it's that bad, what are you
not showing us? And he didn't really say anything. He
just was like, all right, get your stuff out here,

(05:08):
and then a lot of people quit too. And that's
what kind of this feels like, is we know this
is So we'll get into the what you're talking about.
The controversy around her book. We all know about that.
It is so obvious, there's proof, it's all the timelines,
so that's there, and she's just acting like it doesn't exist.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
I don't know how it has not been addressed on
her end at all whatsoever. I am really that perplexes me.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
So what we're going to look at is where she comes,
where she comes from, like how did she get here?
Who is she? And then we'll look at the book
and I think there's some there's some criticism around just
the book in general, and then this controversy which is
also there at the same time, which since we're dancing
around it, I'll just say it. There's the main point

(06:02):
of her book seems to be seems to be taken
from a smaller, less known artist writer, and it's pretty
evident and there's a lot of proof in it, but
she's refusing to acknowledge.

Speaker 4 (06:15):
It, which a simple acknowledgment. That's what so blows my
mind crazy. She could still write the book totally and
then just like credit this person, which even that both
of them, even that girl which I'm sure you get
into it, and I have her name and everything. I
don't even remember her name, Cassie, Cassie, that's it. Okay,

(06:37):
so Cassie, I think also the idea of let them.
Who knows how many people before Cassie have even said okay,
let them, Okay, let them. I saw a funny video
from some girl in New York the other day. She's like,
you want me to give you the New York version
of mel Robins let them theory.

Speaker 3 (06:54):
She's like Ethelm, She's.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
Like, someone does this to you, Yeah, someone does that
to you.

Speaker 3 (07:01):
Ef it Well, it just was. It was really funny.
It made me laugh. But it's not revolutionary. Even Cassie.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
Her poem, even poem, I get in trouble for how
I say poem. I don't say it correctly.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
I get it. Oh go I'm so used to you
saying it like that, You're.

Speaker 4 (07:18):
Used to me saying poem. Cassie's poem about let them
it went viral, and I don't think Cassie would say
that she's even with that viral poem poem, that she's
the first person that's ever had this idea of let.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
Them, you know, And yeah, we'll get into that. Yeah,
it's wild, it's interesting. And I before we Cassie Phillips,
yes that's her name, before we go deeper into this,
I do want to say, I am just sharing you
with what I have found, and I'm sharing a couple

(07:54):
opinions I have made based on what I have found.
But I really not trying to just like bash her.
I think if I was honest, what I really wanted
to find is that she was what we want her
to be because we all want somebody to look up to,
we all want somebody to trust, We all are looking
for somebody to guide us. And I discovered her or

(08:14):
I first heard about her when she had her ted
talk how to get people to stop screening you over
or how there was something about screwing people over where
I'm like twenty eleven and have you heard it.

Speaker 4 (08:30):
Yeah, I've watched Okay, of course I had a big fan,
big fan, but it was it was old, so yeah,
I didn't know. If it's not how I discovered her, though,
I think I first heard of her with her five
second Rule and somewhere on Instagram she came up and
I immediately started following her, and then of course I
started high fiving myself in the Mirror.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
Which was one of her books.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
Yes, and then I would do the five four three
two one Get out of Bed. And I liked all
of her science back tips and tricks and hacks. I
was a sucker for it all, and I still think
that they could be helpful. I know that that's how
I was exposed her. And then I think I went

(09:11):
back and watched some of her viral YouTube stuff and
her TED talks and stuff that put her on the
map with a lot of people. And then I would
talk to you about her all the time. And I
think it's worth noting that if people didn't gather from
you working at that mental health place, that you're a
licensed therapist, in case anybody's listening, that is new.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yeah, and when I was on your fifth thing, you
talked about her a lot, and I could take quiet
because people probably are like, wait, you guys used to
always talk about her, like we used to have a
joke of like take a shot and once you were
a say Mel Robbins, like, oh gosh, I forgot about that.
So you talked about her all the time, and I
went along with it because I know that I'm somebody

(09:52):
who is very it's critical of the right word, it's
very skeptical. I'm very skeptical.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
Yeah, their standism, and I like in your blood yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Which I don't love. Then I do at the same time,
but I get sick of that part of me. So
I'm like, Catherine, let her, let her, let her, like
Mel Robbins, if she's helping her, let her help her,
And that is I still believe that if if she's
helping you, that's okay. We don't have to throw the
baby out with the bathwater. You can take parts of

(10:24):
this and also know when you need to like set
a boundary for yourself or know when to say, okay,
this makes sense, But I don't have to take all
of it at the same time. And so if you're listening,
you're like, you guys used to talk about her all
the time you are hypocrites kind of. But also we
have more information now well, and that's part of it.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
I think this is an example too of well critical thinking,
which we've discussed previously, and then evolving and figuring out
what works and what doesn't work. I mean, there are
things that I would get from Mel that I would
even try out myself and it just didn't sit right,
Like it didn't feel right, like I in the mirror or.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
You like, no, that worked. Now I kind of like that.
I don't mind that so much.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
And then you know, even the five second role, like
I get the stuff behind it, but sometimes it's just
like the simplest stuff that you need, sort of like
drink water.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
But how is she writing this is my question? How
did she write a whole book on counting to five
and let them like that could.

Speaker 4 (11:24):
Be read the five second role?

Speaker 3 (11:26):
So I'm not sure, Like that's an art that's near
here and more there. So okay, we could talk about
this forever. I could talk about this topic for five hours,
So for the sake of time, shall we all right?
So before we get into the juice, I did find
this idea on a very credible website.

Speaker 4 (11:46):
What's the website Reddit. Oh yeah, super credible.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
And I was reading threads just of people's opinions on Melan,
you know, leading me down a black hole, and somebody
said this. I just thought I'd never heard this before.
I thought it was interesting. The term is cruel optimism,
and that shows up. It shows up, I think in
a lot of her content, and specifically her book, but
it shows up with a lot of self help content.

(12:12):
And of course in the comment somebody was like, I'm
not familiar. What is cruel optimism? And this is what
the person said. It comes from the philosopher Lorne Berlant
and describes in a way, the sort of false hope
attachments people are given which redirect them from changing their
material reality. Most self help books provide a surface level

(12:32):
false sense of solution which actually distracts people from making
change in the material reality underlying their suffering. So essentially,
it's what it's saying is it makes people feel better
about their circumstances without actually addressing the underlying issues. So
it keeps them stuck, and it becomes a tool of

(12:53):
actually reinforcing what's actually happening, and it works against them.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
So would grow an actual work on yourself like deep
dinner work. Then that's what leads to us the veil
being lifted in us being like.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
What yeah, I am I well, and that's I think
following this person. Yeah. The criticism of the let them
theory and like the five four three two one and
all that stuff is when you're reading that stuff. I mean,
I've had this feeling too, and I've read self help books.
You're like, oh my gosh, highlighting it like this just
makes so much sense. I'm going to do this. And
then when you actually do those things, they don't change

(13:28):
anything about your life. They'll let them actually keeps you
further away from actually addressing the issues that you have,
creating boundaries for people in your life, having intentional conversation,
confronting people, Like confronting people is part of real relationships.
And so I just wanted to say that as we'll
get back into it, but I thought it was just

(13:49):
an interesting idea that it seems like and that's why
it's the cruel optimism. It seems like you're like, yes,
this is going to change my life, but it keeps
you exactly the same exactly.

Speaker 4 (14:00):
It's sort of like you're just you're hopping onto this
wheel and you don't ever get off unless you dig deeper. Yeah,
but the tips are designed to keep you surface.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
And I think that creates this the wheel. I like
that idea. That's like coming back to that person. Right,
So if I'm like I'm waiting for her next book,
that's going to solve the next problem. And that's a
marketing tactic like always leave, leave somebody needing the next thing.
So like this book sets you up, it creates, it
solves this problem, but it creates another problem. Somebody was

(14:34):
talking to me about this, Hannah Ellis, she's an esthetician.
She was like, the beauty industry does that, so they'll
create a product that solves this. Like back in the day,
grapefruit scrub. It cleaned out your pores. Well, guess what
it gave you dry skin? So then what was the
next thing, morturizer. Yes, so it's the same idea. Okay.

(14:55):
So I wanted to know when I started this, like
where does mel come from? What's her background? What gives
her the right to be saying these things? And I
have to say she's very credited, like she has degrees.
She went to Dartmouth, Dartmouth, Dartmouth Dartmouth Dartmouth poem.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
She went.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
She went to Dartmouth's right, and then she went to
Boston College for law school. So she is smart to
be able to get into both of those schools. And
she was a public defender. I think it was for
a while. And then she moved to Michigan for her
husband's schooling, I think business school or something. And when

(15:41):
she did that, she wanted to change careers, which I
would get that, like you want something different? Well, who
do you think she talked to about changing careers? Like,
if you wanted to change careers, who would you call
to help you figure out where you want to go?

Speaker 4 (15:56):
Well, I mean I would just call a friend, Okay,
I phone home. I don't know, like i'd call my sister.
Who did she call?

Speaker 3 (16:07):
She called a life coach.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Oh see, I don't.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
I don't have one of those. But which maybe she
started seeing a life coach and the life coach ended
up saying like, and this comes from an article, I
want to give credit where credit is due. This comes
from an article by Rachel Baker, and it was in
the Boston magazine in two thousand and seven, so this
was before she got super big. So she went to

(16:31):
a life coach. The life coach was like, you should
be doing what I'm doing, and Mel was like yeah,
And so how do you think she learned to become
a life coach.

Speaker 4 (16:41):
From her life coach? So she was trained like the
life coach saw something in her and was like, wow,
you'd be really good at this. So then she decided
show me your ways and like take me under your
wing and then I'll spread my own.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah. So she it says in that this article she
trained for two years under this person by phone, email
and an in person visits occasionally, like just training over email.
I guess it was twenty and seven. Things were different
back then. Probably wasn't Zoom, No, was their Skype? Maybe maybe? Okay,
So then she became a life coach. So by two

(17:18):
thousand and seven, so this is what eighteen years ago.
How much do you think she was charging in two
thousand and seven? How much do you think she was

(17:38):
charging in two thousand and seven for life coaching.

Speaker 4 (17:42):
I'm just gonna guess five hundred an hour?

Speaker 3 (17:44):
No, no, three fifty okay, but that's a lot like that,
don't even charge that's double my rate as a therapist.
So that's two thousand and seven. That's what blew my mind. Like, honestly,
life coaches their rates are cucko these days.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
And they're not they're not certified, Yeah, like I mean,
I guess they if you could be training under somebody,
but do I have to have training or a certificate?

Speaker 3 (18:10):
No. You could to make yourself look credible, but there's
no actual like you don't have to. I think that
they're also I will say this, I think that there's
a place for life coaches. I'm not against them when
people stay in their lane and they do know like
what they're actually coaching on somebody on. I think there's
a time and a place for it. Do I think

(18:30):
sometimes they charge too much? Yes, but there's not like
a governing body of them.

Speaker 4 (18:35):
So I would say an average therapist though, just that
has schooling and all the credentials, which there is a
difference between a therapist and a life coach. Yeah, but
I would say most therapists are probably like what one
hundred and fifty an hour.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
Depends on where you live, Okay, I think in New
York five hundred dollars wouldn't surprise me. In Naturville, you're
gonna find between a licensed therapist, like one fifty to
two fifty, and there's reasons why they would be higher
and lower based on different trainings, certifications you have. And
you said, it's the same thing, like therapists can also
price gouge people. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
So it's like a bottle of water at the gas
station and the bottle of water at the airport. The
same bottle of water, you just charge more.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
Yeah, so okay, that was shocking to me. So she
became a life coach and then she had this syndicated
radio show called make It Happen with Mel?

Speaker 4 (19:30):
Was that on serious?

Speaker 3 (19:31):
I think so? And now I was looking for if
I could like listen to an old episode of or something,
So I typed in like make it Happen with Mel,
And now that just leads you to her website and
she has like a two part online coaching program called
make It Happen with Mel. I don't know how much
she's charging though, because I didn't want to sign up
for her email list.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
She still has that business.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
I mean, it's it was kind of hard if you
didn't actually type in make it Happen with Mel. It
was hard to find it on her website just by
going through it, so she still does it, but I
it looks like it's like a pre recorded coaching sessions,
so who knows how much she could be charging for that,
So she has that side business. So this also was
very interesting to me. And this gets me into like

(20:17):
my kind of thoughts and opinions on her. I think
she's a genius. I think she is so smart. I
do think she has helped people, but I also think
that again my opinion, she is a businesswoman, not a helper.
The helping is like almost by accident or it's like this,
like somehow this comes along sometimes to me. Her main

(20:40):
goal is business, which also is like we live in
a capitalist society, Like that makes sense. The way she
markets herself, the way she uses words in storytelling to
kind of rope you in and wrap you in is

(21:01):
incredible exhibit a her website. On her bio, she says,
at forty one, I was unemployed, drowning in debt, and
so overwhelmed that I could barely get out of bed.
Then everything changed with one simple tool, the five second rule.
It got me moving one small step at a time

(21:23):
and led me here. Now fifteen years later, I host
one of the world's biggest podcasts, and my books have
reached millions in over fifty languages. My work has changed
billions of lives and can empower you to Does anything
stick out to you?

Speaker 4 (21:37):
Well, right now, my brain immediately goes to it's reminding
me of how Rachel Hollis would market herself as someone
that didn't even go to college and was just coming
up with recipes in her like a stay at home mom.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Baking started from the bottom now or now.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
Yes, like leaving out the part of like, well, okay,
marrying a Disney executive, but that's a whole nother story
in itself, which okay, we're not going to derail. But
that's where my brain went of sometimes how you tell
a story and how you spin it can change everything.
And then your followers are like, oh, I didn't go
to college. I just make recipes at home. I could

(22:22):
be this person. I am in debt. I have failed
at this, but now look at mel All I have
to do is count down from five.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
And also there's this essence of look how hard she
works to get there too, and like if I just
put in some hard work too, I can be there.
And I did the math when she was forty one.
It was like tw ten, twenty eleven. By that time,
she was charging three hundred and fifty dollars for life coaching.
She had a radio show, and she was on the

(22:51):
brink of her ted talk, which really catapulted her.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
Say what is she referring to?

Speaker 3 (22:57):
She she wasn't unemployed. She was self employed. She self
funded a lot of her endeavors, and that's why she
says drowning in debt. But she would probably took out
business loans to start this venture for herself.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
Well, and then I think her husband had a restaurant
business that was failing, so that would invested a lot.
And so then there's that storyline of like all of
our money was poured into this restaurant and it was
going to fail. Okay, So she was employed, but by
herself she wasn't.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, she wasn't unemployed. She was a life coach charging
three hundred and fifty dollars an hour, and she was
working with very high I mean she worked with a
lot of big people and a lot she helped a
lot of big companies. I think as well, well, I would.

Speaker 4 (23:43):
Think charging that much back then you would have to
be working with successful.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
People and I wonder too, because you can only find
so much information. If she really didn't work for a
period of time, Let's say she stopped taking clients or something,
how long was that and was that by choice? Like this,
the way she wrote this, I just was like, you
act like you were on the brink of bankruptcy and
that you were living on the street. You probably were

(24:08):
living in a very nice house. You probably never really
changed your lifestyle that drastic. So that's where I'm like,
she is a genius.

Speaker 4 (24:16):
And because it's not a lie.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
It's not a lie, No, it's just the story is
told differently and she leaves certain parts out and nobody's
asking these questions to her. She's very calculated, calculated, very charismatic,
and I just didn't buy that. And one of her
big critiques that I read over and over was her arrogance. However,

(24:40):
there's part of that that I think I was attracted
to because she was so confident and she had the answer.
But then at the same time, it's it, there has
to be a crack somewhere. She hasn't let any of
that show, and when she does, I feel like even
that is calculated. Like we were talking earlier when she
shows that she's relatable, I'm like, is that story real

(25:02):
or did you just tell that story in.

Speaker 4 (25:03):
A way that would benefit you in the sense that
she always has a relatable story, even with her guests
that come on, which that's what I was drawn to
as well. And I'm sure her story may be true.

Speaker 3 (25:17):
Now I don't know. It might be.

Speaker 4 (25:19):
True but not true, sort of like the first line
of her bio on her website. I guess it just
makes you wonder, which the whole reason behind doing this
again is just so that you can decide if and
how you're going to trust people, because there's a lot
of people out there that are selling things and taking

(25:39):
up a lot of our time and taking up a
lot of our space. Yeah, and it's like, okay, then
with this information, then you can start to kind.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
Of who's taking that space up, take a.

Speaker 4 (25:50):
Peek behind the curtain a little bit, and see if
you want to keep going, and if you do, great,
Because I guess I'm just reiterating it's not I don't
want this to feel like a session at all. It's
just interesting to look at it in that way, because
I don't know I would read the first line of that,
and I would be like, oh, interesting, now this could
happen to me. But because I know we're doing the

(26:11):
steep dive and you're giving this information, my brain instantly
went to other people I know that have now been
exposed and have a reputation of presenting themselves as one
way when it really was another.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
Yeah, and I think we have to give it to
her that she puts herself out there. Like in one
of the articles I was reading, that was one of
the things she was talking about. She was worried how
people were going to perceive her. But that's the price
you pay. But the price you pay for what? For
fame or for money? For what was the goal? Was
that the price you pay for wanting to reach more

(26:44):
people and help more people, or to make more money.
I don't have the answer to that, but I do.
This was just an interesting quote from that article by
Rachel Baker. She said to her, for TV, you need
to be relatable. The truth is I probably will never
have a weight issue because I run, I'm a healthy eater,
and I'm disciplined. That's a liability. My challenge is will

(27:05):
they relate to me because I'm a mom and I'm
from the Midwest, or will they brush me off because
they think I'm too arrogant or too confident, or that
my life is too perfect?

Speaker 4 (27:13):
What even then, like I can't relate to that sentence
at all. What's a right or that statement?

Speaker 3 (27:21):
It just is the interesting thing to say to somebody
that's interviewing you for an article. You know that's going
to be an immagazine, Yes, that people around you are
going to read. And I think that is It's just
her personality is interesting. I would never say that about myself. Also,
like I run and I'm a healthy eater too, But
it doesn't mean that I'm never gonna have it. Was
just it doesn't mean I'm never gonna have a weight issue.
Like she just has this skewed sense of reality or

(27:44):
sense a view of self. She's very privileged, and I
think that as we move into some of the critique
about her theory, she is very privileged, and that I
don't think is ever really acknowledged that she is able
to do X because she can do this and when
we are privileged and then we like sell this idea

(28:04):
that I use the five four three two one and
change my life and now I'm a millionaire, and so
can you like, you have to acknowledge both because you're
setting people up to either always come back and depend
on you or to be manipulated. Okay, would you rather
go into the critiques of the actual theory itself or
do you want to go into the platiarism controversy.

Speaker 4 (28:27):
We can start with the critiques and then we'll get
into the Okay, platiarism.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
So Therapy for Women is an account on Instagram that
I really love. She has a podcast and we listen
to her podcast. Her podcast is called Need for Nuance
and it's two therapists and they talked about when this
first came out, what was some of the nuance that
was not mentioned in it? And so she put a
carousel on Instagram, and I'm going to read some of

(28:51):
the stuff that she talked about because I agree with most,
if not all, of it, and then we can add
our own thoughts as well. But the first one she
said why she disagreed with the let them theory, which
we haven't said what the let them theory is? Do
you want to explain it? Well?

Speaker 4 (29:06):
Is there a official definition for mel but in a nutshell, which,
of course, when it first came out. I was saying
it all the time. I'm pretty sure, like.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
Even on the Bobby Bomb Show.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
I mean we talked about on the podcast, but on
a national radio show, I was like, oh, you know, Bobby,
you need to do like Mel Robbins and just let them.
So when I first heard Mel talk about it, she
was just doing a selfie style video, and I think
the example she gave is, like you know, she goes,

(29:35):
I just heard about this, you know idea or theory
called let them and you know, if your friends are
gonna go to lunch without you and not invite you,
let them. Like it was sort of presented like that
as like this, don't let it take up space in
your brain and let it loop and run you ragged,

(29:55):
Like just let them and move on with your day
let them.

Speaker 3 (29:59):
Versus share with them that it hurt your feelings and
that you want to be included. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
That, No, I don't remember that. I just feel like
that was what stuck with me from when I saw it.
How she gave other examples, and I do see how
that could be beneficial if it is working you up
in a way where like if you don't have all
the facts, like similar to like not making up a
story that you don't know to be true, which I
guess you could ask your friends about, like, hey, did

(30:27):
something happen? I guess you all went to lunch. The
whole lunch thing. That probably stuck with me because I
think I've had moments where I've had friends doing something
and I felt left out, and so I felt like, oh, Okay,
I can just let them, And I do see how
that could come in handy if you if you're not
trying to be dramatic, you don't need to say anything
because like, what if there was a reason you weren't
invited that you don't need to know about, or it

(30:49):
really doesn't matter. You can just let them. But I
just know bigger situations and scenarios in life where let
them just isn't.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Going to work.

Speaker 4 (30:57):
Yeah, but I think Mel even addresses that some right Eventually.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
I didn't finish the book. So this also reminded me
of that other podcast that we listen to. It was
Are You Up? Was the dating dating one? So she
did her podcast tour for her book, and it was
interesting that she was even on that podcast because it
was about dating and so they were trying to get
her to relate it to the dating scenarios, and I

(31:25):
think that the hosts were being real realistic, like, Okay,
we get she's saying like if somebody doesn't, oh my gosh,
do you listen to that?

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Right?

Speaker 3 (31:35):
If you guys want to entertain yourself, listen to the
first five minutes because she is so aggressive, and she
was like, I'm going to tell you what's wrong with
your dating life, and the problem is you there's a way,
and there's a nuance, and there's just a finesse to
sharing information when somebody's getting in their own way that
most people are not going to listen to. They're going

(31:57):
to Okay, you're mean, I feel attacked now I'm defensive.
So that's just not a from a honestly from a
helping standpoint, that's not the way to help somebody.

Speaker 4 (32:07):
Was that more of her life coach vibes like do
you think thanks? People were paying three point fifty yeah,
plus a session like that that's the version she was
getting of, like, well, I don't.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Give a f what you think.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
Like there was somewhere in that episode they asked a
question about what a listener might be feeling, and she's not.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
My effing problem.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
Yeah, well they're not my effing problem. And I was like, oh, ouch,
Like yeah, it did not feel like a helper, yeah
at all.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
I think they asked like if if somebody who's listening
to this is having a hard time grasping this concept
that like if somebody doesn't want to date, you just
let them, or if somebody doesn't answer your text, just
let them. If somebody doesn't blah blah blah blah, let them.
They were like, we grasp the idea, but for somebody
who isn't able to just like grab that when they
really feelings are involved, when they like somebody, when they

(32:53):
want to know what they did wrong, like how do
you get them to like get there? They were like
valid question, like what's the route? And she was like
if they don't want to get there, that's not my
effing problem, or if they can't grasp this, it's they're
not my effing problem. And I just was like, well,
I mean, you're you're saying that you're trying to help them,
so you're making them your problem and that you have
the solution, and if they don't like your solution, then

(33:15):
you're like f off.

Speaker 4 (33:16):
It felt very aggressive and I remember my brain instantly
thinking like, oh, would she have talked this way on
Oprah's podcast?

Speaker 3 (33:25):
And maybe she did.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
I don't know, because I was already disenchanted with her
by the time she went on Oprah, so I didn't
even watch or listen to the full thing. I just
saw clips online. But I wondered if her demeanor was
the same with Oprah as it was with them, because
she was very, very, very aggressive. I was confused by yeah,

(33:48):
and you can side of her. You can be I think,
confident and strong. And again, one thing that drew me
to her in the beginning is she had this like
you just wanted to believe her. She just she believed
what she was saying, so you want to believe it.
And I, as a early therapist, was struggling with my
confidence and how to show up. One of my mentors
actually told me one time. They were like, you need

(34:09):
to harness your inner bitch, and I was like, I
can't do that.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
But then I saw mel Robinson, I was like, I
can be like her. It was like I got drawn in.
But then that feels very different, the confidence than what
she was showing on that podcast. It almost felt like
she didn't like that. People were kind of poking holes
of saying like, well, we need more because she didn't
have the answer to that, right, So the critique said

(34:37):
the women from Therapy for Women had We're going to
just talk about each one.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
There's five.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
The first one is it can be an excuse. The
first one is it can be an excuse. So so
to avoid hard conversations or learn how to compromise. There's

(35:03):
a difference between letting someone go versus using let them
to avoid necessary conversations in long term relationships. I would
have loved this five ten years ago, last year even
like to be able to just like let them. I'm
not gonna confront that. It's actually, i think, creating more

(35:24):
distance in your relationships than actually helping you. So number
two is it's marketed as a one size fits all solution.
When you try to apply a one size fits all
solution and it doesn't work, the message becomes if this
doesn't work for you, you're the problem.

Speaker 4 (35:40):
Hmmm, which is sort of her was her demeanor on
that podcast, Yes okay.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
Which she probably would double down on, like you don't
want it bad enough, or you're stuck and you're not
listening or something like that number three. It can create
shame if saying let them doesn't work or feels unhelpful.
Change is messy, it's nonlinear, and it takes time. It's
not something you can fix with a simple catchphrase. And

(36:06):
I think that's something that I have feelings about, where
like I love catchphrases like that, like the waight to worry,
Like I like the idea of let them. I have
some of those slow equals fast is one that I
use in my office a lot, but those I'm not writing.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
And it's about yeah, no, like we didn't, we didn't
just and.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
We're not applying that to every situation, right.

Speaker 4 (36:31):
We think they can come in handy. They're a tool
to keep in your back pocket.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
But that wouldn't sell if she was like, I have
a tool that sometimes could work for you in certain
situations and sometimes might not make any sense. Who's behind
that like that? I think that's the problem with That's
what I run into issues with a lot of like
the self help gurus, a lot of the Jay Shetties

(36:58):
of the world, a lot of the mel Robin of
the world, is that to sell something, you have to
create this like mph about it, and most of the
reality of therapy. I mean we say this all the time.
Remember when we did that little game when you asked
me about the different anxiety tools and now was like,
sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
Well, I asked you to rate them on a scale
of one to ten because a lot of therapists were
doing it online and it was super cute, and they
would just give a direct number. They'd be like waited
blankets five, coal plunges seven, journaling nine, therapy tit like
you were like, every time you try to answer, you're like, well,
it depends, which is so true. It does depend, Like

(37:40):
there is no blanketing number that will work for everybody.
For some people, journaling is absolutely going to be a
nine or a ten, and then for somebody else it's
going to be a one.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Well, guess what that reel that we made with that
didn't go viral and that's probably want it's not that interesting,
Like that's the reality of you'll help and real therapy
is it's like not that interesting. Sometimes it's like not
that sexy. Yes, which the let them theory, Oh my gosh,

(38:09):
if the way she actually well, actually I'm gonna read
chain and just gave us her website definition of let
them theory. The let them theory is a step by
step guide on how to stop letting other people's opinions, drama,
and judgment impact your life. Two simple words, let them
will set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying
to manage everything and everyone around you. It's time to

(38:32):
build a life where you come first, your dreams, your goals,
your happiness.

Speaker 4 (38:38):
Like, okay, I want that, but okay, and it says
I'm going to reiterate two simple words, let them will
set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying to
manage everything and everyone around you.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
Versus come to therapy and maybe we might be able
to find some help for you to feel better sometimes.

Speaker 4 (38:55):
But that is a bold claim. Yeah, two words that
are going to set you free.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yeah. And I think the other thing is like, you can't.
She gotta be sued for false advertising, because again, if
it doesn't work, it's your fault. It's not because there's
something wrong with my theory. It's that you're not doing
the things that you're supposed to do. You're not buying
into it, or you're whatever. Anyway, next one number four.
It doesn't address the root cause of issues, which I

(39:23):
think we've kind of talked about. Shouting let them at
someone who is in an abusive relationship or has trauma
is unhelpful. That is a big one.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
Yeah, I do feel like in fairness though, I believe
mel again, you didn't finish the book, but this can't
apply to if you're in an abusive relationship. There's no
way she would be like, well, let them.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
I haven't read the book either. And there is a
second part where it's like let me.

Speaker 4 (39:51):
Which also is plagiarized from from the same person, Cassie Fast. Okay, well,
I'm excited to get to the plagiarized part because then
don't want to talk about the prom part, because there
was no problem in the original video. Yeah, there was
only like the example of like your friends going to
lunch without.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
You, the receipts don't match up. That's right, There is receipts. Right,
there are receipts. The last critique of this, which is
what we're getting into, is it was plagiarized. The original
concept came from a poem called let Them by Cassie
Phillips about setting boundaries with people who don't value you
while remaining open to those who do so shall we

(40:28):
we shall. I will also say, on top of all that,
which is a thing with a lot of self help
stuff too is and a lot of the stuff with
Jay Shetty is like these repackaging things that already exist.
She's repackaging one, this poem that already exists. But the
let them theory is somewhat like radical acceptance to which
we've talked about on here, which is part of DBT,

(40:49):
which is a part of a therapy that's already been created.

Speaker 4 (40:52):
I wonder if she addresses that, I don't know in
the book. Probably not, she'd be giving credit to something else.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
I don't think she probably does, because one and then
it's she also says that she discovered this. She doesn't
say she created it. She says over and over, I discovered.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
This theory from her daughter, right, So, but that's not true.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
Well, you know, we're gonna get into that.

Speaker 4 (41:13):
Yeah, But that's the part where I'm like, well, it's
my mind.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
And a lot of the way she's talking about it,
and a lot of her press she says, I discovered it.
I discovered I discovered it, like I came upon this thing,
not I created it, And I think that's her way
of gatting around it. So I want you to tell
your story, because you heard about this before me, and
then you started kind of putting the dots together. And
then I found some of this on the internet and

(41:36):
I was like, look, it's true, so you tell me.

Speaker 4 (41:39):
So back to my closet. I'm just scrolling Instagram or
I do it.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Oh we were locked in your closet.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
No, I was just it's just where I was in
my house. Like you'd never hang out in your closet.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
A clause is not that big. I wasn't locked in it.

Speaker 4 (41:54):
No, I guess I would just sit in there sometimes
when my bathroom was like all connected. But I remember
that's exactly where I was. And the video hadn't even
gone viral yet. It just was a video that popped up.
And then later I kept seeing it. I was like, oh,
this really popped off, like this is now blown up.
And I think even for mel she saw that and
she was like, oh there's something here, there's something to this.

(42:17):
People are loving this. Let them theory. And I'm sure
with her genius brain, she's like, I better take this
momentum and let's go. Let's create a whole movement, a book,
all the things. So I do know that I saw
her kind of she was just she made a selfie
style video. It seemed like she was maybe out on
her porch or something, and she was like, Hey, I
gotta tell y'all, I just learned about this idea of

(42:41):
let them. And I don't remember all the examples that
she gave, but I do remember she did not talk
about prom with her daughter, mentioning it to her, which
in the book when the little parts that I did
read in the things that I know about her promotion
around it is that it came to her through her daughter.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
When they were sending her son off to prom.

Speaker 4 (43:07):
He hadn't put a lot of thought into it, kind
of decided to go last minute, and she, as the mom,
was really frustrated, like the weather was bad. They were
just going to go to some taco truck and she's like,
we should really be making reservations and it's going to
write and like she was just as a mom, Like
I'm paraphrasing obviously, and that at one point during it all,
her daughter it was like, Mom, let them, it's his

(43:30):
prom Let them if they want.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
To go to a taco truck.

Speaker 4 (43:33):
Let them if they want to do this, let them
and that at that moment, Mel was like, you're right,
and then the story went from there. But that's not
where it started because I remember when she first posted
about it and she didn't say anything about her daughter
or prom. And then since then too, the sluthor's online
or whatever you call them, tons of people have collected

(43:56):
the receipts and done the research and.

Speaker 3 (43:58):
The timeline they had.

Speaker 4 (44:00):
They put the original Mel video before prom so like that,
you have the timeline, Okay.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
Yeah, and I have the video too. It's still there,
so you guys can go fact check this. So what's
I have the timeline that a woman named Sage Justice.
She has a substat called Sage Words. She created a
whole timeline on this in a couple articles. I think
really to give help give Cassie a voice and help

(44:28):
get her the credit where credit was due. And I
want to say before I go into this, that's the problem,
not that she took somebody else's poem and then created
a book about it, because she could have done that
in the right way. And what is that Picasso quote?
That's like good artists borrow great artist steel like we're

(44:49):
all taking information from other people and creating new things.
That's fine. She could have done that and put Cassie's
poem in the beginning of the book as like a prologue.
That would have been so cool for Cassie and for Mel.
So my issue is it would have been so easy
to lift this woman up, versus she's acting like it

(45:10):
never happened.

Speaker 4 (45:11):
This entire scenario was the downfall of my relationship with Mel.
I was still on board and very much a fan.
This situation with Cassie is what lifted the veil the
tiniest bit, and then the veil got fully lifted and
I could not even finish the book. Yeah, and my
sister knew I wanted that book, and before my sister

(45:33):
pre ordered it, I think she pre ordered like six
of them.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
And my sister and I would call and we would
talk about mel roblems.

Speaker 4 (45:38):
We'd exchange like instagrams, like I'd text her this or
texted that, Oh, we'll go see what Mel said here. Yes,
like I was a fan, like this just really bums
me out, Like I'm like, it yucked your yum it,
this really yucks my youm because dang it, I was
excited to read the book, and then I wasn't, and
then I sent it. I donated it to goodwill, so

(45:59):
somebody else canna have it. Somebody else could have it
if they want it, and maybe they need it and
it'd be perfect for them at whatever season of life
that they're in. But the season I'm in, it just
seemed very if and it was not cool.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
And then it was not cool, mel, this is not cool.
I just felt bummed like I'd been duped because you
were duped. That's the feeling, and that feeling is so maddening.
Oh that's why I'm so skeptical. So let me read
you the timeline. Also, we got the quote it's good
artist copy, great artists steel, so it's okay to take

(46:33):
Also like she could have because they're really is if
we think about it, there's nobody has original thoughts. However,
this could have been a really cool opportunity to help somebody.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
And we're all inspired by so many people, like yeah,
bring her alongside, like I don't know why it had
to be the prom story versus a poem, right, and
then also even with her daughter, what really me? Okay, sorry,
I had a pre ordered copy, so I have the
og which you can say that sorry, you're the teacher.
You're the teacher. I didn't know what all you had prepared.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
Well, I'm just going to read this thing and then
you tell I know you're about to say. Okay, else
we'll never get to the timeline. Okay, time, Okay, the timeline.
So in twenty nineteen, Cassie Phillips writes the poem let Them.
September twenty twenty two, the poem let Them by Cassie
Phillips goes viral. October twenty twenty two, the poem let

(47:26):
You by Cassie Phillips goes viral. Oh well, so in
Mel's book, though, the other part is let me, good
job mail. That one's on you. Okay, I think I didn't.
I think that's right. I didn't get to that part
of the book. But in May thirteenth, twenty twenty three,
Mel Robbins makes viral TikTok sharing the discovery of let Them.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
That's kind of cool to know that on May thirteenth,
twenty twenty three, I was in my closet based on
that information that I know.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
That nowhere was yeah, May twentieth, May twentieth, which comes
after the thirteenth, twenty twenty three, the prom where Mel
claims the origin story of her discovery.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
Happened so seven days later.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Yeah, it's weird how time works that way. Also, I
feel like I saw somewhere and somebody can fact check
me on this, because I don't have it written down
right now. I think she interacted with Cassie's poem at
some point.

Speaker 4 (48:22):
Well, all I know is earlier this year, when I
was trying to read the book and I was starting
to get perturbed because of this Cassie business. I did
see that Cassie had posted somewhere some interactions with her, and.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
Mel can't say she doesn't know this person exists. May
twenty twenty four. This is interesting. Mel Robins files to
trademark the phrase let Them September. October twenty twenty four,
Meil Robins announced she wrote a let Them book. December
twenty twenty four, she publishes the book that let Them there,

(49:00):
and she was not able to get the trademark for
whatever she was trademarking it for, because you can't just
trademark a random thing that you don't have, No, like,
I can't trademark. What's up, guys? I have no like
content or anything that comes around that.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
Well, she is it because she filed for the trademark
before she had the books, because if she had the book,
then she could file for the trademark and say that
that's like because I don't know the only thing I've
ever filed for is under like the podcast and then
clothing apparel, and you have to have a created product
and be using it and selling it.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Well, so she tried to trademark for because if you
look on like Etsy and stuff, there's tons of stuff
that creators and artists and stuff make that says let them.

Speaker 4 (49:45):
Maybe it was too generic.

Speaker 3 (49:46):
I think it was too that was it was like
too generic. She can probably trademark the let them theory now,
but you can't just trademark that because then all also
doing that puts all those people that already that are
already creating that content out of business, Like that hurts
these little people.

Speaker 4 (50:02):
Well, if she were to obtain the trademark and she
chose to take action on the little people, then it
would impact them if she let them, she let them
just do it. She could be like, let them, let
them keep using it, yes, because that's really when you're
only gonna get impacted is if someone decides to pursue
legal action. Getch you like, the government's not gonna say anything,
But she could. She found that.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
This is sort of what I was trying to say.

Speaker 4 (50:25):
Yes, it is possible to trademark a phrase or a slogan,
but it must be used to identify goods or services
and be distinctive enough to function as a trademark. To
trademark a phrase, it needs to be more than just
a common saying. It should be used to distinguish your
brand and its offerings in the marketplace.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
But if she had.

Speaker 4 (50:41):
Clothing with it on there, or the book or different
things where she's using it and it's tied to her,
then she could.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
She could. Before you say the other thing that I
was like, don't say that yet, I found that Cassie,
the original girl that wrote this poem, she credited the
idea or their inspiration from her poem to the Medea video.
Do you know who media is like the Tyler Tyler Perry?

Speaker 4 (51:06):
Of course I know Medea Hallelujah.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
She has a viral YouTube video which we can post
the link because it's interesting and it's called let Them Go,
and in it she says, if somebody wants to walk
out of your life, let them go. So that inspired
her poem and I'm like that right, there is all
you had to do. Like, just like Cassie was like,
oh this thing inspired this. It doesn't take away from

(51:31):
her poem. It was like, Oh, that's cool to know
the story of where that came from, the same thing
Mel could have done.

Speaker 4 (51:38):
But I guess she felt like crediting her daughter. Oh yes,
which I feel like if I was her daughter, I
might be like, Mom, I saw you post a video
seven days ago talking about let them and then yeah,
I said that to you for the problem. Like me,
her daughter did say that.

Speaker 3 (51:52):
But then her daughter doesn't have as much power as
her mom.

Speaker 4 (51:55):
Well obviously not, because that was what I was trying
to say earlier, was that her daughter worked with her
mom on this book side by side. They posted about
it multiple times. I don't even know, like.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
A year of research.

Speaker 4 (52:06):
They acted like they were sitting at the kitchen table
just day and night, working on this project together. And
then her name was not on the book. Yeah, that
really crazy through me. But then you told me on
later editions because I had a pre order copy that
when it was reprinted or the new books were printed

(52:28):
that her daughter was added in smaller, smaller font font.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
On International Women's Day and this is my thing about
Like she's like, oh, what a gift. Yes, she made
this announcement, like I'm doing this thing for my daughter,
And I'm like, no, you're just putting the other author's
name on the book that should have already been there.
You should have put her a long time ago.

Speaker 4 (52:47):
It doesn't make sense you didn't include her, especially if
she's the entire inspiration for the thing.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
But what a way to spin that of like oh,
I just was waiting to do this as a International
Women's Day to support women, like versus being like, yeah,
I was kind of narcissistic and I didn't put my
daughter's name on it. That was a mistake. I should
change it. So this is all leads me to like
the kind of wrap up of mine.

Speaker 4 (53:09):
Like how does that conversation go, Like I'm honestly trying
to picture it, Like does she like I know you've
been by my side and you're the one that told
me about this let them theory? Like remember remember when
when your brother was going to prom and you were like, mom,
let them let them go to the taco truck. And
then we were like, oh, let's write a book. And
then you sat by my side and we did all

(53:30):
the research and we worked on it together. You know
how we've done that. But I just been letting you
know that only my name is going to be on
the book. So thank you for everything inspiring this entire thing,
but only my name. Like how does she even say that?
Like how do you say that? And you know what,
if you, if you have any thoughts or feelings about this,

(53:50):
I need you to just you know, go high five yourself.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
In the mirror and kind down.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Let them.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
Mom, just give yourself a five, four three two one
some water. High five yourself in the mirror and then
say let them.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
Like is that what you tell your daughter? But that's
the crazy thing is like the theory would say that
the daughter should say.

Speaker 4 (54:14):
Let them, Yeah, let them.

Speaker 3 (54:16):
Can't do anything about it. She doesn't want to give
you credit for these hours and hours and hours and
hours of work that you put into this project that's
gonna make her millions of dollars.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
Let them, let them. If someone's gonna take your idea,
I mean, because really this is the mom. Okay, she
took it from Cassie or whatever. She was inspired and
Cassie got it from Medea.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
A fictional character. I love Medea.

Speaker 4 (54:40):
My mom loved media movies. Every time there was an
Adia movie, my mom was watching it. Yes, like always
have a special place in my heart, which Tyler Perry
is speaking of, like who can we trust anymore? He
was in the news recently of stuff, and I'm like,
please don't let that be true. Please don't let that
be true. Maybe it is, and if it is, to
the victim, like I will now have to be like, ugh,

(55:02):
Tyler Perry, you suck. I don't know, because claims can
be made and I don't know. I haven't followed up
the details there, but I'm like, dang it, I don't
like reports like that, but thankfully truth should come out.
So I do like reports like that, But you get
what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
Yeah, And I think that these situations, whether it's Tyler Perry,
Mel Robbins, Rachel Hollis, whatever, when we find the cracks
in the like too good to be true stories of
these people that we're looking up to or that we're
gaining insight from where we're learning from, we're not able
to like get the what's the cart before the horse, Like,
we're not able to know the information until we know it.

(55:40):
So I think the glimmer in this whole conversation is
that you are allowed to change your mind at any point,
like when you find more information about somebody that leads
you to say like, oh, I don't think they had
my best interest at heart. You're allowed to change your
mind about how you feel about them. And I think
you're a perfect We both are perfect examples because I
once loved her too, and the more we learned, the

(56:02):
more we were like, oh, I don't know that I'm
going to take everything with the same weight as I
once took from her. I'm going to think more. So
we came up with some things to look for or
ask yourself when you are looking to somebody, whether it's
a boss, a friend, a mentor, a famous person, a
self help person, a therapist, a teacher, there are some

(56:26):
things to ask yourself that might help you not get
too far in before you see kind.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Of the light.

Speaker 4 (56:43):
But these are the questions that we came up with
whenever I was paying money to a face fitness person.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
They're not the same, they're similar that's not exactly the same,
but those are all that's how to spot a scammer.
Oh so they're similar, They're very similar. Yeah, well, and.

Speaker 4 (56:58):
It makes me think of even Tony Robbins backstory, which
I know this isn't a deep dive on him, and
I don't know the full thing, but in Mel's first
line of her bio sentence, like, Tony's story is this
whole you know, grew up very poor, single mom. Like
he feeds a lot of people now, like millions, maybe

(57:20):
even dare I say billions. I feel like he's put
out an astronomical number of like meals that he has
provided for people. And you know, it goes back to
this story of how he was helped as a child,
And then I'm like, I hope he was. I'm sure
he was, but it seems like a lot of people
follow him. I once thought about going to one of
his conferences. Well, but I would have to pay a

(57:42):
lot of money to go and then have him yell
at me to walk on coal. But I think that'd
be cool.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
I feel like I just went so many places with you.
I feel like, also though the Rags to Riches is
so like I'm drawn to that, like, again, if they
can do it, we can do it, So we can
add that to it.

Speaker 4 (58:01):
Oprah.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
Oh yeah, Oprah. There's some cracks an Oprah story too.
Don't tell me.

Speaker 4 (58:06):
I don't want to know.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
Crowdcat's like mm hmmm.

Speaker 4 (58:09):
Maybe later we could do it. We could do an
Oprah deep dive. But she's someone that definitely did not
have privilege, that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
Yes, yeah, I think Mel had a lot more privilege
than Oprah. Did You can say that, well, yeah, I
mean Mel is never going to get fat. She runs
and she eats healthy. I can't believe she said that.

Speaker 4 (58:27):
And I know I derailed us with the whole Tony
Robbins thing, but it just made me think of people
that I am drawn to at times because of their
story and then their charismatic behavior, and that I would
pay money to go to one of their events because
I think it would be cool and the energy there

(58:48):
would be awesome, Like.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
A Rachel Hollis's conference before her downfall.

Speaker 4 (58:53):
Yeah, I'm sure that those were really exciting and fun
and fun and like you felt like this community and connection.
So that's why I think it's important that I particularly
pay attention to these signs or these poverment.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
What do you have? Questions? Questions that we need to ask. Yeah, okay,
so five questions. Keep it short and simple. One is
it too good to be true? If it's all encompassing,
you might want to do a little bit more digging.
Two do their actions match their words? I mean, are

(59:27):
they practicing what they're preaching?

Speaker 4 (59:29):
And this is how we can know if we can
trust somebody. These are the questions we're going to ask ourselves. Okay,
is it too good to be true? Do their actions
match their words?

Speaker 3 (59:39):
Three? How do they handle critique and accountability?

Speaker 4 (59:44):
So you have to really like dive deep into that
if you don't have a relationship with this person, because like,
even for seeing how Mel handled some critique, we had
to go listen to all these other yeah, but the podcasts,
but maybe it would maybe once you see it, you
may even notice sit in her own everywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
Okay. I think that's the other thing is I think
you're experiencing once the veil is lifted, you see it
everywhere because those are now the lenses that you're looking
through versus the rose colored glasses that like, she can
do no wrong and she's so nice and she wants
to help, BUTZ like, no, she's a businesswoman and she
wants you to buy.

Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
Her book and she's a genius.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Yeah, she's pretty smart. Number four, do they show humility
or just authority? This one is tricky because I think
mel shows her humility in a an authentic way, but
really she wants to she wants she wants to feel
like she's just like us, but in other areas she
wants us to not be able to relate to her.

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
Yeah, it's manufactured humility, it's am.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
And then the last one, number five, what do they
gain from your trust? Are they guiding, helping, or just selling?
So are they guiding you or are they helping you
or they just selling a product? And I think that's
one that you can go back to what we talked
about in the beginning, is in with marketing, Like they're
always supposed to leave you wanting one more thing, and

(01:01:05):
if they're solving this problem, to create this problem, to
then solve this other problem for you, if you continue
to need, need, need, There's a difference in wanting, like
I want to listen to certain podcasts, I want to
read certain authors books. They're fun, they're entertaining, I gained
something from them, but I don't feel tied to them,
Like if they stopped their podcast, I would die. If

(01:01:26):
they never wrote another book, I don't know what I
would do, Like I can't go to anybody else for
that type of help, guidance or entertainment. That's I think
where you're like, well, and.

Speaker 4 (01:01:36):
I'm thinking about you as a therapist, and I would
think that your goal would be eventually for your client
to spread their wings and do whatever. I mean, therapy
can be on and off. Doesn't mean like if you
have a client that's coming in and just constantly needing
you all the time, you may wonder I'm not doing
my job.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Yeah, And I think there's again a difference in therapy
where there's yeah, the goal.

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):
Because you have a living to make too, and I
think helpers need to make money. So I guess I'm
trying to also have some discernment around how can you
tell if a helper who also is trying to make
a living is just selling, because like you could maybe
I'm sure there are some therapists actually that do it
or guides in whatever way that just keep what they

(01:02:23):
don't care if their client gets any help. Date as
long as they're coming and writing a check.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Yeah, that definitely exists. I think there's also in therapy
a difference in because a lot of times I'll see
clients and I might see in them every week for
two years, and then they'll go to every other week,
and then they'll go to once a month, and then
randomly they'll come back and they're like, I have this issue?
Can I come back for weekly sessions? And it shifts.
There's also clients that just like going to weekly therapy,

(01:02:48):
but they know that they don't need to come. It's
they're actively making that choice. And I think that's the
difference of like that feeling of well, if you go
on vacation, what will I do? Versus Okay, I'll see
you next week, but I'll be looking forward to it,
you know, like our job, yes, is to work ourselves
out of a job, if that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (01:03:10):
Yeah, But lucky for you, there's always going to be
messed up, broken people because.

Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
We have to pick up the pieces of Mel Robbins.
So I love that was both entertaining and fun, and
I hope it helps people again have their own discernment
and so then they can be in charge. Like I
like having agency over what I pay, like what I buy,
what I pay attention to, what I listen to, and
know what I give my time to. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
Yeah, because if I'm going to be watching somebody's videos
or reading their books, yeah, and then trusting your gut
and listening to it. Like when I knew it was like, wait,
why am I reading this? I have to put this down?
And I have zero interest in picking back up, which
was shocking to me because I was really excited to
read it. But anyway, let them let us. If people

(01:03:58):
didn't like this episode, let them.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
If people don't like us them, let them. If you
want to feedback here just kidding, we actually love If
you want to leave a bad review, don't just email us.
I think you and I both we've said this before.
We're open to feedback and critique whatever you want to
send our way. I think it would be helpful if

(01:04:23):
you just send it to us so we can work
through it. Like, does it have to be on a
public platform? No, I don't think I say that. I
don't know. I think no.

Speaker 4 (01:04:36):
Mel would be like, send this episode to everybody in
your family that needs to hear good lives. It's going
to change their lives, which I've admitted to even in
some of our titles at times like oh and it's
not just mel there's tons of podcasters that do it
that kind of just hook you with the title of
like you need to do this every day or you're
going to die. And I'm like, Okay, yeah, we're going

(01:04:57):
to give that a go. And we've tried that, and
we have not tried that, not that exact same is
there's a little hyperbole there, but I just wanted to
put emphasis on that we've given that a go, and
it didn't feel authentic to us, like even we were
just starting the rebrand, which has only been a few

(01:05:19):
months now, like there are some titles in there where
we were playing around with that and then I was like, eh, well,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
That's the cool marketing I think is what you have
to think about, Like there's you have to be able
to market yourself. Again, we live in a capitalist society,
so we do need to like make money and we're
self employed or I am, so like.

Speaker 4 (01:05:36):
Oh no, I don't know about you. I'm I'm unemployed
and on the brink of big brank crafcy, but I'm
working on something. I'll let you know, and I have
it all figured put together and I'll sell it to you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):
But I think that that is something that you can do.
But as you see with other creators and other helpers,
you come to a point. I've had this in my
own business. If like, you come to a point where
you can choose making money or you can choose the
ethics of what you're doing. And sometimes that decision is
really hard, and sometimes you make the wrong one, and
sometimes you make the right one. People like Brene Brown.

(01:06:13):
We've talked about her a lot, not today but in conversations.
Not already likes her. I love her, but there's a
way that she does what she does that keeps her
from reaching the masses that some other people have reached.
And I think part of that is her tie to
what she really believes and what she really wants, and
that doesn't sell as well. So I think that's worth sacrificing. Yeah,

(01:06:35):
if we do these things, we might get viral faster
and more people will listen to our podcast and we'll
make more money. Sure, but is that worth having to
do it that way? Or do we rather have the
slow burn? But then we feel okay about it? Yeah,
slow burning we're slow burning. So no, I love our community.

(01:06:56):
I mean, I know you do too, but I'm just
saying I don't think either one of us all so
it's chasing. I also like, don't I don't think we
wake up every day of like I think we want
people to download or listen, but that's not my number
one goal in life, Like I think there are other things.
I don't want to be that big. That's terrifying to me.
I don't like I like. I like walking down the

(01:07:19):
street nobody knowing who I am. And maybe for other
people would be the same way.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:07:22):
I can't speak for them, but I think for you
and I, if our careers would change or we win
a totally different trajectory like we would be okay. And
some people it's like, no, this is exactly what I
want to do. And don't get me wrong, I would
love for us to do some live shows again, because
when I do those and I get on stage, I'm
like I was born for this. That's how I feel

(01:07:44):
when I walk out on stage, like I love it.
I think it's just connecting with people and like seeing
them there. But it doesn't have to be you know,
thousands people. It could be three hundred people in a room,
and we've done that before, six hundred people in a room,
and it still feels intimate. And I think it's just
connecting with our people. So anyway, I do have that

(01:08:05):
feeling of like I was born for this. And I
also could move to Montana and make protein bars out
of my kitchen, you know, and not never get on
social media again, and never be in front of a
microphone again, and I would be Okay, we just need
to do the occasional live show so I could get
on stage.

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
Feel the brush. Okay. Well, if you guys have feedback
or questions or thoughts that you had while you listened
to this episode, you can send them to us. Hey,
they're at Feeling Things podcast dot com. You can also
send us questions for couch Talks, where we answer your
questions on Wednesdays. You can Thursdays. It is Thursdays. Thank you.

(01:08:46):
You can rate and review us and watch us on YouTube.
Yeah five stars only thanks, it's kidding. Only rate us
if you're gonna give us five starts. If not, just
keep going.

Speaker 4 (01:08:55):
No, just email us. That was my whole point. It's like,
give us your criticism, but have to be public. But
I think some people thrive off of like three stars,
four and a half.

Speaker 3 (01:09:06):
They thrive off of giving that they get a N star. Yeah,
A sucks, but hey, you know what, let them let them.
And with that being said, have the Day you.

Speaker 4 (01:09:17):
Need to have?

Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
Should we do a book? Have the Day you need
to have? A whole book on it? That sounds like
a children's book. No? No, don't you think I think
we could market it? If we market it?

Speaker 4 (01:09:26):
Right, Have the Day you need to have?

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
It'll save your It'll change your life. And in seven words?

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
Where was her?

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
Better than two words?

Speaker 4 (01:09:36):
I was trying to scroll back to wherever the definition
of okay? How many words was it?

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
Seven?

Speaker 4 (01:09:42):
Seven simple words? Have the day you need to have
will set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying
to manage everything and everyone around you.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
That actually sounds pretty good.

Speaker 4 (01:09:53):
Okay, Bye bye

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
Z