September 25, 2021 • 25 mins
Amy sits down with licensed therapist, @KatDeFatta, to discuss positive body image and what it REALLY means. They break down the difference between body positivity, positive body image, negative body image, & body neutrality. And what the heck we are supposed to strive for!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I won't let my body out out well everything that
I'm made dope, won't spend my life trying to change.
I'm learning to love who I am. I get I'm strong,
I feel free, I know who everybody me. It's beautiful
and then will always out way if you feel it
(00:24):
with your hands in the here, she's some love to
the boom. I get there. Let's say good day and
did you and die out Happy Saturday. Welcome to outweigh Hey.
Cat Defot is here with me. I Amy here and
we always say hey outweigh fam. So I'm gonna say
you can say it hey outweiy fam. So. Lisa is
(00:47):
not here today. She is at home with her sweet
new baby, and I gotta say, if you haven't listened
to her birthing story on her own podcast that she
has called The Truthiest Life, definitely go check out that episode.
It's very fascinating, interesting, shoot a great job with it.
And I'm glad that Cat can come and fill in
and be my co host for today as she is
(01:09):
a licensed therapist that is the specializes in and she's
an expert in body image and eating disorders and helping
navigate all of that which is perfect for today's episode
because I feel very confused in the space of body
positivity and the body liberation and how am I supposed
(01:30):
to feel on my body? And I see people things
doing online that seem like they're supposed to be helpful,
but then in a way they are now toxic. So Cat,
you're here to clear, uh, what all this is and
how we can just show up better for ourselves after
seeing all the things that we see on Instagram and TikTok,
and then how we can show up for others. So
(01:52):
why do you feel like this is an important conversation?
Well for many reasons, but one, there's so much information
out there, and I talked about this all the time.
I'm so grateful for the ability for us to get
information the way we can get it now. But there's
so much information, and it's coming from a lot of
different people. Some are experts, some are not, Some are
(02:12):
well meaning, some have done research, some haven't. But it's
some are trying to get likes and clicks, and they're
one of the things that I want to talk about
it because you're right, some people are capitalizing on something
that has become popular and accepted, and then they use
it and then becomes more of a revenue stream than
what it was in the beginning. So all that to say,
I think we need to talk about because I get
(02:34):
confused because even I where I have this knowledge and
this education in the back of my head, I get
on social media or the Internet or Google, and I'm like, wait,
it's like going to web MD. It's like good compared
too much information? And who do I trust? And and
oftentimes when I diagnose myself with something on web m D,
I not that web m D doesn't give me helpful information,
(02:56):
but often times I'm completely wrong. And when I seek
a professional for what's happening, I realized, like, oh, because
there's nuances to fect those things. And web MD wasn't
created to like hurt people and scare people, but it
just with put in the wrong hands, it can become
a scary thing. So I just think there's a lot
of information. The information changes often, and I know that
(03:19):
I get confused. I have so many clients that come
in and they're like, I want to be this, but
now should I be this? Or is it bad to
say this? I heard this person say this, and now
I feel shamed because I'm and so I just think
we need to talk about. Okay, well, let's start with
what is body positivity? Okay, So the question that I'm
going to answer, actually it's what is the body positivity movement? Okay? Yes,
(03:41):
so that is one thing. So that's that's one box
situation over here. So that is a movement that it's
focused on the acceptance of all bodies, regardless of your size,
your shape, your skin tone, your gender, your your physical abilities.
And it kind of fights against I guess the present
day beauty standards, which side I don't want to completely derail.
(04:02):
How Like a lot of people are following suit with this,
Like in two thousand and eighteen, Miss America got rid
of the swimsuit competition in an effort to be more
you know, accepted with what's happening and you know, this movement,
and then they recently announced that now they are no
longer judging contestants on beauty, but on mental health. I
(04:23):
don't know how they're going to gage that it's on
their mental health, well, mental well being, like they're I
don't know. Listen, I'm paraphrasing the headline that I well,
I read the whole article, but I just can't popped
into my head and I don't have it in front
of me. So if people are interested to read more,
you can go google those keywords and it will come
up and you can read about it. I mean, I
(04:45):
guess it just means they're going to be judging people
from the inside, like their their health. Do they take
their blood pressure by stage? And then do they see
how much sleep they're getting? Well? I just are they
in therapy like they like, I'm like it. Trust me,
I would not win Miss America right now. Just do
(05:06):
you do puzzles like yes, yes, what are your therapeutic activities?
Are you breathing? What's your breathing exercise? So anyway derailed
from that, but like, yes, society we're making a shift
and there's a lot of confusion in this shift, and
I feel like we'll get there. We need guidance. But
the question I would ask, and I don't know people
(05:28):
would be honest about, ask the people that are in
charge of Miss America what is the motivation behind changing that?
Because what has happened is so this body positivity movement
started and it started a long time ago, like it
came out of the fat acceptance movement, which I think
is from the nineteen sixties, so it came out of
that and it was created for one reason. Well, then
(05:51):
that time goes by and now people are capitalizing on
that and they're using it to like monetize their business.
So I would ask the people of Miss America, what
is your motivation? Is it because you're seeing the benefits
of looking at different parts of people's beauty whatever that
actually means, or is this going to actually help you
(06:15):
gain and and remain and keep I don't know, watchers
viewership watchers, well, which then and keep your advertising revenue?
Yeah a lot, Miss America Life, Yes, and and and
please yeah, please people that pay for ads for their
stuff and all that. And so that is one of
the issues that we're seeing that actually messes with the
(06:36):
whole point of the body positivity movement because any company
can attach to that. Let's say that I am like
a weight loss supplement. I can attach to that, and
I can create language that says like create a body
that you can love or something like that. And it's
talking about loving your body and all that, but it's
(06:58):
also talking about changing engine it. I love it. Yes,
And if you remember, like back in the day, this
is probably like I don't know, twelve to fifteen. I
could be wrong. But when all those Dove commercials came out, yes, yeah,
they actually got a lot of like criticism that probably
most people didn't see for those ads because they created
(07:18):
this whole campaign. But they created that campaign to self
soap okay, But it did start a conversation. Allows for
people to turn on the TV and see people that
didn't just look like this standard of what you know
it is typically out there. It did start a conversation,
and from my perspective back then, I didn't see anything
wrong with it. I would play some of those commercials.
(07:39):
I remember playing them in groups that I was doing
when I was working at a treatment center. So now
that we are, we are now what's well because and
it's all because of the motivation. So what we're looking
at is the people that are attaching to body positivity
and that movement. Are we attaching to that because that's
going to help us gain money or power or followers
(08:01):
or whatever. And is it coming from that place or
is it coming from a place of what this is
actually created for, which is to help empower human beings.
The other thing is the language, because so many people
are using it, and they're using it to benefit their
specific avenue. The language is getting shifted and changed and
messed with. So what once was something that is promoted
(08:23):
to help people, no matter what your physical ability is,
no matter what you look like, no matter any of
that is created to create like equality, it's shifted into this,
like you should love what you look like, and you
should love your cellulite, and you should love that you
have this disability maybe or you should love And the
point of it is it for it not to matter. Okay,
(08:44):
So when we bring attention to because I follow a
couple of people on Instagram that highlight their cellulite and
they do that, I assume so that other girls, I'll
just give an example, will be like, Oh, for so
many summers, I wore genes and I was sweating and
burning hot because it was too embarrassed to be in
shorts because I didn't want anybody to see my cellulite.
(09:05):
And now I'm all out there and I'm putting on
shorts and I want you to be brave, but then
it's being brave exactly. I know, it's a whole lot
of we have to talk about it. I know, well,
I'm just telling you what I see because and they're
defined yes, it is like, oh wow, if she can
do it, I can do it. So this is this
feeling of like being you know, quote unquote brave. So
(09:28):
then they show like even the lighting, how in certain
lighting they have no cellulight, and then today and the sunlight, bam,
there's the cellulight and hey, look look at me, I
have it too. And then hopefully that inspires other people
to put on shorts and love their cellulite, which is
awesome motivation. Okay, And I used to follow tons of
accounts like that, and that's what I'm saying. Everything shifting
(09:50):
and we're getting new knowledge and we're starting to think more.
Because my thought was if she can do it, I
can do it, and if she doesn't have a problem,
that I shouldn't have a wrong. But it's like, why
do I have to explain it? Right? And okay, so
I want to pause, and you said you have to
think for a bit, and I will challenge you if
because this has required a lot of my brain power
and it seems like something so simple because it's like
(10:10):
we're talking about okay, like posting the cellulne or maybe
we shouldn't be doing that and like oh, and then
it just may be like, well, I don't really get
what the big deal is, so I don't want to
take the time. It seems fine to me. But if
you really stop to think about it, then you'll understand
what Cat is saying. Because I'm still on that journey.
I'm with you if you're listening right now and you're like,
I don't see what the big deal is. But then
(10:32):
when you dive into others that are out there really
a part of the body positive movement, I would say, yes,
there's a section of people that are like, we have
to stop doing stuff like that because we have to
stop implying that something like that is ever bad. Let's
say that the body positivity movement is to help create
(10:52):
equality within all people in all bodies. Okay, what I'm
looking at with that, a lot of people might not
look at because the initial reaction to a post like
you're describing is like that's awesome, thank you, Yes, But
what I'm looking at it is what is the messaging
that's continued to be created and explain the message that
I am a I'm a woman that is not a
(11:14):
size too or zerr whatever that has cellulite, and I
need to show you that I can be okay with
my cellulite, rather than why do I have to explain that?
Why is that a conversation? Why if I posted a picture,
are you immediately looking at the cellulit? Why can't I
post a picture of myself and it just be a
picture of myself? Well, because for so long people air
(11:36):
brush cellulite and didn't show it and covered it up,
you know, and then you turn the corner and there's
this cellulite treatment and the cellulate cream, and so we're
normalizing it. But so we're that is not okay. So
you're saying that is part of normalizing it, not part
of the body positive movement. Yes it's it's not part
(11:56):
of the body positive movement, but a lot of people
are attaching themselves to it, because that's watering down the
actual movement, and the movement is so separate than positive
body image and negative body image, which which we'll get to.
What I wanna again say is that when we are
posting things and creating a conversation, that has to be
continued to have Okay, every time I post a picture
(12:17):
of myself, I don't have to explain that I am
accepting of my body. It just gets to be a thing.
But right now, the immediate ideas she probably doesn't accept
her body because it doesn't look like what we've been
pushing for years and years and years as a perfect
or good body. And what we're trying to do now
is dismantle the idea that there is a good body
(12:38):
or a bad body. So what does a body positive
movement posts look like like on TikTok or Instagram? If
it's not that, because people might see that and be like, oh,
body positive movement right there, showing me Celluli. So then
I mean, I know you sent me a TikTok video
of like Lizzo? Is she an example of doing it correctly?
Lizzo is always an example of doing things. She's my
(13:03):
winning song on the Bobby Bones Show. What does that mean? Yes?
I gotta blame it? Okay? So yes, Lizzo had put
out this. I don't know how long ago this was,
but she had a TikTok that obviously went viral because
it's Lizzo. But can we play it? Oh? Yeah, here,
(13:23):
let's play a hook of it? Right? Well, it's not
a song or can actually just play the clip from TikTok.
Actually we should give credit to the person that did it,
because she I don't know if it's called duet or stitch.
She voiced over a video that Lizzo put out. So
Lizzo put out, I'll set it up. Lizo put out
this video. Do you guys remember there's this, like, if
(13:43):
you are on TikTok, there's a trend where people would say,
bodies that look like this, I also look like this.
Bodies that look like this also look like this, and
they would show a person that probably has thin privilege
to some extent contorting their body to make them either
have like roles or whatever her and then an image
of them also looking like they have the quotes perfect body.
(14:05):
So this girl. Okay, so it's the Lizzo TikTok and
then it's it's a duet and it's with Jordan x
in dot simone. So it's like signon with an E
on the end. So if you're wanting to find it,
but that is we're giving credit. Work credit is due.
And here is what she had to say. Okay, so
I figured out how to phrase why I don't think
skinny people should be leading the body positivity movement, and
(14:27):
I'll be using this trend as an example, except I'll
be using Lizzo's video because I think she's doing everything right.
But if you watch this trend, you'll see bunch of
people who are showing off their body when it's posed
and quote unquote perfect, and then when it's unposed in
it's imperfect relaxed date with the back rolls and the
arm fat stuff like that. And the message is that
to love your body how it comes, whether it's deemed
as perfect or imperfect, which is definitely a super important message,
except it still subscribes to the idea that there's such
thing as a perfect or an imperfect body. But what
(14:49):
Lizzo does when she shows her body in a natural
state the entire time is that she challenges the idea
that there's an imperfect or an imperfect body at all.
Because skinny people can more or less fluctuate between the
imperfect and perfect editions of beauty, we have a harder
time accepting our body and it's quote unquote imperfect way.
But because fat people are deemed imperfect all the time,
they're having a conversation about dismantling the idea of a
perfect body at all. Long story, short's canny. People are
talking about acceptance. Fat people are talking about liberation. It's
(15:11):
perfectly normal to be insecure. I'm insecure about my body
all the time. But skinny people don't confront the fact
that we're afraid of being fat or why, And until
we're ready to have that conversation, we shouldn't be in charge. Okay,
So what she is talking about is the difference between
maintaining that there is a good and bad, which is
what a lot of good, good meaning people are. These
people are not bad meaning people. I do not think
they're there for doing this is I want to help people.
(15:33):
They're so nice, And we have to remember what is what?
What is my behavior perpetuating? What is the what is
this creating? What pattern of thinking? And that's that there's
a good and there as there's a bad, there's a
perfect and there's an imperfect body, and what we are
trying to identify is that there is none. And that's
the difference between liberation and acceptance. The body positivity movement
(15:55):
is really more centered towards liberation, where we're creating equality
for any type of body versus you should accept and
love your body because I can have freedom from my
body and not like what my body looks like. And
those all get tied in to the same thing. And
that's when we mix positive body image and negative body
image in with the body positivity movement. Those are two
(16:19):
separate things. Okay, are you confused or you know, betracking people?
I'm tracking because we've been talking about it for a while.
But I know some people are not talking because it's
hard to grasp. It's hard. It seems simple. That's why
I was saying, you have to really think. I know,
but I mean just on the surface, you might be like, Okay,
I get it, I understand the difference between this and
this and this. But then we really think about it,
(16:40):
you don't or I didn't, and so I would yes
like for you to break it down. Okay, that's you
once did this, I think on your on your in
on TikTok. Well, I have a weird relationship with TikTok.
I just remember you did a long time ago, and
you're like, I'm gonna try to break this down in
thirty seconds or less. Here we go, and so that's
what body, that's what I want you to do. There,
(17:00):
So yeah, that was a real on my um instagram,
which what is your instagram by the way, at cat
dot defata. There you go, d e A just kidding.
I know how to spell it, d e f A
t t a cat with a k k at dot
de fata. Thank you. Okay, So then we have body
(17:21):
image work Okay, So then we have positive body image
negative body image. Those are again separate from body positivity movements.
So we're moving. Okay, So we're gonna talk now about
negative and positive body image separate from body positivity movement.
So positive body image A lot of people think that's
(17:43):
liking what we look like, right, right, which makes sense,
it's actually not. So positive body image is separating our
worth and our value from what we look like. I
can have positive body image and still not like like
my thighs, but then I know that my worth does
not come from my thighs. So negative body image is
(18:06):
one not liking what your body looks like or thinking
that there's something wrong with it, but then thinking that
that is then directly related your worth or your value. Right,
people don't like me because of my thighs or I
am not going to have this happened to me because
of my thighs. If only my thighs were smaller, my
life would be better. Or I don't look like her,
(18:27):
so I don't deserve that. I'm giving you examples that
have literally gone through my head at some point in
my life that my body has the power to allow
me to have or not have something that every human
being inherently should have, love, belonging, acceptance. It's really that simple.
And the confusing part for a lot of people who
(18:48):
come to me for body image work is they come
and they have this expectation that Cat is going to
teach me how to look in the mirror and like
what I see as like my different body parts or
my hair and my eyes or my whatever. I have
no idea how to teach somebody to do that. I
don't think it's possible, and I don't do that, And
people at first don't like that and they're like, what
do you mean? Like what's what do you do? Then
(19:11):
we teach you how to see you versus what you
look like. So I can help somebody learn how to
love themselves because they're actually starting to get to know
themselves and see themselves when they look in the mirror
versus just seeing all of these end quote imperfections that
really aren't imperfections, because what is imperfect and perfect about
(19:34):
a body? We've been conditioned to believe. What's that conditioned?
Conditioned literally, and that is why different cultures find different
things beautiful by their standards, its conditioned. And when you
think about that, you're like, oh, okay, yeah, even our country,
like our you know, you see different cultures. There can
be different cultures within the United States, but you have
(19:55):
to see how we've evolved over time. In every decade
there's been a different maybe not every ten years, but
there's definitely since like the twenties, and then like there's
the fifties, the sixties and seventies, the nineties, like there's
different and now here we are with the look it up.
They'll show you a little graph that shows you how
bodies and the desired quote unquote is that we're using
(20:17):
a lot of quote. You can't see us quoting, but
what the desired body looks like and it changes all
the and you can't keep time, you can't keep up. Okay.
A really good example that I can give of how
this has shifted in my own life, very simple is
when I had negative body image. I thought to work
(20:38):
out wearing a certain kind of outfit, I had to
have a certain body and if I didn't, and I
didn't deserve to wear that, like being able to work
out in just like a sports bra or like biker
shorts or something like that, showing your stomach if you
didn't have abs. I thought that my ability to do
that depended on what my body looked like. Now that
I have this idea, I have positive body. And I
(21:00):
doesn't mean I like what my stomach looks like. But
I think, and I know and I believe that if
I'm hot and want to wear this outfit because I
think it's cute, I get to and it doesn't mean anything.
People don't get to have certain privileges in my head
and my belief system based on what they look like. Now.
The problem is also society is not totally caught up
(21:21):
with them. They're not there yet because certain certain the
way you look or this size or whatever definitely gives
you different privileges that other people do not have. Okay,
I want to go to this because I know we
wanted to talk about it earlier, but body neutrality. So
before we wrap up, let's touch on that okay. So
(21:43):
body neutrality is really something that has been debated alongside
body positivity. And I don't think I said this super clear,
but body positivity is different than the body positivity movement.
Body positivity is something that has been extracted from the movement,
and that's where you're getting the people who are capitalizing
on the movement to gain cloud followers, money, whatever it is.
(22:07):
So body positivity says, love your body, no matter what
it looks like. Body neutrality says, why are we talking
about it? Stop talking about our bodies. So that's part
of the whole. I feel like that puts the bow
on what we're saying. But here's the thing. I say
this with hair and like empathy, and you can choose
whatever you want to choose. If you want to be
body positive and that works for you, go for it.
(22:30):
If you want to be body neutrality, If you want
to be on that road and it works for you,
go for it. I just want you guys to be
really honest about what do I feel when I'm doing this,
and what is the messaging that this is sending me
and the people around me. I mean, I think that's
a fair challenge. So I'm in the realm that body
neutrality works better for me because I don't really find
(22:54):
it easier possible for me to look at my body
and love it no matter what it looks like. Sometimes
I get really ang with it, but then I can
come back to why does it matter? That says nothing
about you? You don't have to love it. You can
still be a really great person and go live your
life no matter what your stomach looks like today, no
matter what your hair looks like, no matter what color
your eyes are or the shape of your eyebrows like
(23:16):
it doesn't matter how fast you can run if you
really want to go to ability And that feels more
in line to me with the positive body image being
body neutral But I think what is confusing is people
think that I have to pick positive body image or
body neutrality, and they're actually they're similar. It's body positivity
that is not the same as body neutrality. Okay, so
(23:40):
confusing it is because they're like the same word. I mean,
we can maybe, yeah, I know, we need to come
with the new words for I'm trying to quite honestly,
that would be better. I'm trying to create like um
with Kate Kennedy did this ven diagram for like you
need a vendit. I'm trying to create a ven diagram,
but even I sit down and I'm like pulling my
hair out and I'm like, oh my gosh, and then
there's like new information and I'm like, my gosh. So
(24:00):
I'll try to do it and maybe we can get
that out to the world. Yeah. Ven Diagram coming soon
from Cat to Fata, which I highly encourage you all
to check out Cat's podcast. It's called You Need Therapy.
You should definitely subscribe so that way, when her episodes
load up, boom, they pop up on your phone and
there's always something amazing on there that you need to hear.
You never know that episode that you might just really
(24:23):
bring you comfort for a day. She has different guests
on all the time, just kidding. I've only been a
guest twice. Yeah, but I've only had like two returning
guests and you're one. Oh yeah. But she has other
guests that are, like you will in to experts and
stuff and written books and all that. And then Cat herself.
She she does episodes you know, sometimes just her, but
she is the expert and she has a lot of
(24:44):
amazing topics and puts therapy in away. Now. It's not
a replacement for therapy by any means, but you're just
so good at normalizing therapy but also putting it in
digestible because sometimes the jargon that people use. In my opinion,
I'll listen and I have to go listen again because
(25:04):
I don't know, but I feel like you do a
good job of explaining things. So check her out. Kat,
thank you so much for joining us, and actually Kat
will be on with us again next weekend as Lisa
continues her new journey as being a mom. But Lisa,
we'll be back very very soon, So check her out.
Give her a follow on Instagram Lisa if you have not,
because you need to send her a message to tell
(25:26):
her congrats on being a mom. And she's at Lisa
hame h a y I am all right. Bye,
I won't let my body out out well everything that
I'm made dope, won't spend my life trying to change.
I'm learning to love who I am. I get I'm strong,
I feel free, I know who everybody me. It's beautiful
and then will always out way if you feel it
(00:24):
with your hands in the here, she's some love to
the boom. I get there. Let's say good day and
did you and die out Happy Saturday. Welcome to outweigh Hey.
Cat Defot is here with me. I Amy here and
we always say hey outweigh fam. So I'm gonna say
you can say it hey outweiy fam. So. Lisa is
(00:47):
not here today. She is at home with her sweet
new baby, and I gotta say, if you haven't listened
to her birthing story on her own podcast that she
has called The Truthiest Life, definitely go check out that episode.
It's very fascinating, interesting, shoot a great job with it.
And I'm glad that Cat can come and fill in
and be my co host for today as she is
(01:09):
a licensed therapist that is the specializes in and she's
an expert in body image and eating disorders and helping
navigate all of that which is perfect for today's episode
because I feel very confused in the space of body
positivity and the body liberation and how am I supposed
(01:30):
to feel on my body? And I see people things
doing online that seem like they're supposed to be helpful,
but then in a way they are now toxic. So Cat,
you're here to clear, uh, what all this is and
how we can just show up better for ourselves after
seeing all the things that we see on Instagram and TikTok,
and then how we can show up for others. So
(01:52):
why do you feel like this is an important conversation?
Well for many reasons, but one, there's so much information
out there, and I talked about this all the time.
I'm so grateful for the ability for us to get
information the way we can get it now. But there's
so much information, and it's coming from a lot of
different people. Some are experts, some are not, Some are
(02:12):
well meaning, some have done research, some haven't. But it's
some are trying to get likes and clicks, and they're
one of the things that I want to talk about
it because you're right, some people are capitalizing on something
that has become popular and accepted, and then they use
it and then becomes more of a revenue stream than
what it was in the beginning. So all that to say,
I think we need to talk about because I get
(02:34):
confused because even I where I have this knowledge and
this education in the back of my head, I get
on social media or the Internet or Google, and I'm like, wait,
it's like going to web MD. It's like good compared
too much information? And who do I trust? And and
oftentimes when I diagnose myself with something on web m D,
I not that web m D doesn't give me helpful information,
(02:56):
but often times I'm completely wrong. And when I seek
a professional for what's happening, I realized, like, oh, because
there's nuances to fect those things. And web MD wasn't
created to like hurt people and scare people, but it
just with put in the wrong hands, it can become
a scary thing. So I just think there's a lot
of information. The information changes often, and I know that
(03:19):
I get confused. I have so many clients that come
in and they're like, I want to be this, but
now should I be this? Or is it bad to
say this? I heard this person say this, and now
I feel shamed because I'm and so I just think
we need to talk about. Okay, well, let's start with
what is body positivity? Okay, So the question that I'm
going to answer, actually it's what is the body positivity movement? Okay? Yes,
(03:41):
so that is one thing. So that's that's one box
situation over here. So that is a movement that it's
focused on the acceptance of all bodies, regardless of your size,
your shape, your skin tone, your gender, your your physical abilities.
And it kind of fights against I guess the present
day beauty standards, which side I don't want to completely derail.
(04:02):
How Like a lot of people are following suit with this,
Like in two thousand and eighteen, Miss America got rid
of the swimsuit competition in an effort to be more
you know, accepted with what's happening and you know, this movement,
and then they recently announced that now they are no
longer judging contestants on beauty, but on mental health. I
(04:23):
don't know how they're going to gage that it's on
their mental health, well, mental well being, like they're I
don't know. Listen, I'm paraphrasing the headline that I well,
I read the whole article, but I just can't popped
into my head and I don't have it in front
of me. So if people are interested to read more,
you can go google those keywords and it will come
up and you can read about it. I mean, I
(04:45):
guess it just means they're going to be judging people
from the inside, like their their health. Do they take
their blood pressure by stage? And then do they see
how much sleep they're getting? Well? I just are they
in therapy like they like, I'm like it. Trust me,
I would not win Miss America right now. Just do
(05:06):
you do puzzles like yes, yes, what are your therapeutic activities?
Are you breathing? What's your breathing exercise? So anyway derailed
from that, but like, yes, society we're making a shift
and there's a lot of confusion in this shift, and
I feel like we'll get there. We need guidance. But
the question I would ask, and I don't know people
(05:28):
would be honest about, ask the people that are in
charge of Miss America what is the motivation behind changing that?
Because what has happened is so this body positivity movement
started and it started a long time ago, like it
came out of the fat acceptance movement, which I think
is from the nineteen sixties, so it came out of
that and it was created for one reason. Well, then
(05:51):
that time goes by and now people are capitalizing on
that and they're using it to like monetize their business.
So I would ask the people of Miss America, what
is your motivation? Is it because you're seeing the benefits
of looking at different parts of people's beauty whatever that
actually means, or is this going to actually help you
(06:15):
gain and and remain and keep I don't know, watchers
viewership watchers, well, which then and keep your advertising revenue?
Yeah a lot, Miss America Life, Yes, and and and
please yeah, please people that pay for ads for their
stuff and all that. And so that is one of
the issues that we're seeing that actually messes with the
(06:36):
whole point of the body positivity movement because any company
can attach to that. Let's say that I am like
a weight loss supplement. I can attach to that, and
I can create language that says like create a body
that you can love or something like that. And it's
talking about loving your body and all that, but it's
(06:58):
also talking about changing engine it. I love it. Yes,
And if you remember, like back in the day, this
is probably like I don't know, twelve to fifteen. I
could be wrong. But when all those Dove commercials came out, yes, yeah,
they actually got a lot of like criticism that probably
most people didn't see for those ads because they created
(07:18):
this whole campaign. But they created that campaign to self
soap okay, But it did start a conversation. Allows for
people to turn on the TV and see people that
didn't just look like this standard of what you know
it is typically out there. It did start a conversation,
and from my perspective back then, I didn't see anything
wrong with it. I would play some of those commercials.
(07:39):
I remember playing them in groups that I was doing
when I was working at a treatment center. So now
that we are, we are now what's well because and
it's all because of the motivation. So what we're looking
at is the people that are attaching to body positivity
and that movement. Are we attaching to that because that's
going to help us gain money or power or followers
(08:01):
or whatever. And is it coming from that place or
is it coming from a place of what this is
actually created for, which is to help empower human beings.
The other thing is the language, because so many people
are using it, and they're using it to benefit their
specific avenue. The language is getting shifted and changed and
messed with. So what once was something that is promoted
(08:23):
to help people, no matter what your physical ability is,
no matter what you look like, no matter any of
that is created to create like equality, it's shifted into this,
like you should love what you look like, and you
should love your cellulite, and you should love that you
have this disability maybe or you should love And the
point of it is it for it not to matter. Okay,
(08:44):
So when we bring attention to because I follow a
couple of people on Instagram that highlight their cellulite and
they do that, I assume so that other girls, I'll
just give an example, will be like, Oh, for so
many summers, I wore genes and I was sweating and
burning hot because it was too embarrassed to be in
shorts because I didn't want anybody to see my cellulite.
(09:05):
And now I'm all out there and I'm putting on
shorts and I want you to be brave, but then
it's being brave exactly. I know, it's a whole lot
of we have to talk about it. I know, well,
I'm just telling you what I see because and they're
defined yes, it is like, oh wow, if she can
do it, I can do it. So this is this
feeling of like being you know, quote unquote brave. So
(09:28):
then they show like even the lighting, how in certain
lighting they have no cellulight, and then today and the sunlight, bam,
there's the cellulight and hey, look look at me, I
have it too. And then hopefully that inspires other people
to put on shorts and love their cellulite, which is
awesome motivation. Okay, And I used to follow tons of
accounts like that, and that's what I'm saying. Everything shifting
(09:50):
and we're getting new knowledge and we're starting to think more.
Because my thought was if she can do it, I
can do it, and if she doesn't have a problem,
that I shouldn't have a wrong. But it's like, why
do I have to explain it? Right? And okay, so
I want to pause, and you said you have to
think for a bit, and I will challenge you if
because this has required a lot of my brain power
and it seems like something so simple because it's like
(10:10):
we're talking about okay, like posting the cellulne or maybe
we shouldn't be doing that and like oh, and then
it just may be like, well, I don't really get
what the big deal is, so I don't want to
take the time. It seems fine to me. But if
you really stop to think about it, then you'll understand
what Cat is saying. Because I'm still on that journey.
I'm with you if you're listening right now and you're like,
I don't see what the big deal is. But then
(10:32):
when you dive into others that are out there really
a part of the body positive movement, I would say, yes,
there's a section of people that are like, we have
to stop doing stuff like that because we have to
stop implying that something like that is ever bad. Let's
say that the body positivity movement is to help create
(10:52):
equality within all people in all bodies. Okay, what I'm
looking at with that, a lot of people might not
look at because the initial reaction to a post like
you're describing is like that's awesome, thank you, Yes, But
what I'm looking at it is what is the messaging
that's continued to be created and explain the message that
I am a I'm a woman that is not a
(11:14):
size too or zerr whatever that has cellulite, and I
need to show you that I can be okay with
my cellulite, rather than why do I have to explain that?
Why is that a conversation? Why if I posted a picture,
are you immediately looking at the cellulit? Why can't I
post a picture of myself and it just be a
picture of myself? Well, because for so long people air
(11:36):
brush cellulite and didn't show it and covered it up,
you know, and then you turn the corner and there's
this cellulite treatment and the cellulate cream, and so we're
normalizing it. But so we're that is not okay. So
you're saying that is part of normalizing it, not part
of the body positive movement. Yes it's it's not part
(11:56):
of the body positive movement, but a lot of people
are attaching themselves to it, because that's watering down the
actual movement, and the movement is so separate than positive
body image and negative body image, which which we'll get to.
What I wanna again say is that when we are
posting things and creating a conversation, that has to be
continued to have Okay, every time I post a picture
(12:17):
of myself, I don't have to explain that I am
accepting of my body. It just gets to be a thing.
But right now, the immediate ideas she probably doesn't accept
her body because it doesn't look like what we've been
pushing for years and years and years as a perfect
or good body. And what we're trying to do now
is dismantle the idea that there is a good body
(12:38):
or a bad body. So what does a body positive
movement posts look like like on TikTok or Instagram? If
it's not that, because people might see that and be like, oh,
body positive movement right there, showing me Celluli. So then
I mean, I know you sent me a TikTok video
of like Lizzo? Is she an example of doing it correctly?
Lizzo is always an example of doing things. She's my
(13:03):
winning song on the Bobby Bones Show. What does that mean? Yes?
I gotta blame it? Okay? So yes, Lizzo had put
out this. I don't know how long ago this was,
but she had a TikTok that obviously went viral because
it's Lizzo. But can we play it? Oh? Yeah, here,
(13:23):
let's play a hook of it? Right? Well, it's not
a song or can actually just play the clip from TikTok.
Actually we should give credit to the person that did it,
because she I don't know if it's called duet or stitch.
She voiced over a video that Lizzo put out. So
Lizzo put out, I'll set it up. Lizo put out
this video. Do you guys remember there's this, like, if
(13:43):
you are on TikTok, there's a trend where people would say,
bodies that look like this, I also look like this.
Bodies that look like this also look like this, and
they would show a person that probably has thin privilege
to some extent contorting their body to make them either
have like roles or whatever her and then an image
of them also looking like they have the quotes perfect body.
(14:05):
So this girl. Okay, so it's the Lizzo TikTok and
then it's it's a duet and it's with Jordan x
in dot simone. So it's like signon with an E
on the end. So if you're wanting to find it,
but that is we're giving credit. Work credit is due.
And here is what she had to say. Okay, so
I figured out how to phrase why I don't think
skinny people should be leading the body positivity movement, and
(14:27):
I'll be using this trend as an example, except I'll
be using Lizzo's video because I think she's doing everything right.
But if you watch this trend, you'll see bunch of
people who are showing off their body when it's posed
and quote unquote perfect, and then when it's unposed in
it's imperfect relaxed date with the back rolls and the
arm fat stuff like that. And the message is that
to love your body how it comes, whether it's deemed
as perfect or imperfect, which is definitely a super important message,
except it still subscribes to the idea that there's such
thing as a perfect or an imperfect body. But what
(14:49):
Lizzo does when she shows her body in a natural
state the entire time is that she challenges the idea
that there's an imperfect or an imperfect body at all.
Because skinny people can more or less fluctuate between the
imperfect and perfect editions of beauty, we have a harder
time accepting our body and it's quote unquote imperfect way.
But because fat people are deemed imperfect all the time,
they're having a conversation about dismantling the idea of a
perfect body at all. Long story, short's canny. People are
talking about acceptance. Fat people are talking about liberation. It's
(15:11):
perfectly normal to be insecure. I'm insecure about my body
all the time. But skinny people don't confront the fact
that we're afraid of being fat or why, And until
we're ready to have that conversation, we shouldn't be in charge. Okay,
So what she is talking about is the difference between
maintaining that there is a good and bad, which is
what a lot of good, good meaning people are. These
people are not bad meaning people. I do not think
they're there for doing this is I want to help people.
(15:33):
They're so nice, And we have to remember what is what?
What is my behavior perpetuating? What is the what is
this creating? What pattern of thinking? And that's that there's
a good and there as there's a bad, there's a
perfect and there's an imperfect body, and what we are
trying to identify is that there is none. And that's
the difference between liberation and acceptance. The body positivity movement
(15:55):
is really more centered towards liberation, where we're creating equality
for any type of body versus you should accept and
love your body because I can have freedom from my
body and not like what my body looks like. And
those all get tied in to the same thing. And
that's when we mix positive body image and negative body
image in with the body positivity movement. Those are two
(16:19):
separate things. Okay, are you confused or you know, betracking people?
I'm tracking because we've been talking about it for a while.
But I know some people are not talking because it's
hard to grasp. It's hard. It seems simple. That's why
I was saying, you have to really think. I know,
but I mean just on the surface, you might be like, Okay,
I get it, I understand the difference between this and
this and this. But then we really think about it,
(16:40):
you don't or I didn't, and so I would yes
like for you to break it down. Okay, that's you
once did this, I think on your on your in
on TikTok. Well, I have a weird relationship with TikTok.
I just remember you did a long time ago, and
you're like, I'm gonna try to break this down in
thirty seconds or less. Here we go, and so that's
what body, that's what I want you to do. There,
(17:00):
So yeah, that was a real on my um instagram,
which what is your instagram by the way, at cat
dot defata. There you go, d e A just kidding.
I know how to spell it, d e f A
t t a cat with a k k at dot
de fata. Thank you. Okay, So then we have body
(17:21):
image work Okay, So then we have positive body image
negative body image. Those are again separate from body positivity movements.
So we're moving. Okay, So we're gonna talk now about
negative and positive body image separate from body positivity movement.
So positive body image A lot of people think that's
(17:43):
liking what we look like, right, right, which makes sense,
it's actually not. So positive body image is separating our
worth and our value from what we look like. I
can have positive body image and still not like like
my thighs, but then I know that my worth does
not come from my thighs. So negative body image is
(18:06):
one not liking what your body looks like or thinking
that there's something wrong with it, but then thinking that
that is then directly related your worth or your value. Right,
people don't like me because of my thighs or I
am not going to have this happened to me because
of my thighs. If only my thighs were smaller, my
life would be better. Or I don't look like her,
(18:27):
so I don't deserve that. I'm giving you examples that
have literally gone through my head at some point in
my life that my body has the power to allow
me to have or not have something that every human
being inherently should have, love, belonging, acceptance. It's really that simple.
And the confusing part for a lot of people who
(18:48):
come to me for body image work is they come
and they have this expectation that Cat is going to
teach me how to look in the mirror and like
what I see as like my different body parts or
my hair and my eyes or my whatever. I have
no idea how to teach somebody to do that. I
don't think it's possible, and I don't do that, And
people at first don't like that and they're like, what
do you mean? Like what's what do you do? Then
(19:11):
we teach you how to see you versus what you
look like. So I can help somebody learn how to
love themselves because they're actually starting to get to know
themselves and see themselves when they look in the mirror
versus just seeing all of these end quote imperfections that
really aren't imperfections, because what is imperfect and perfect about
(19:34):
a body? We've been conditioned to believe. What's that conditioned?
Conditioned literally, and that is why different cultures find different
things beautiful by their standards, its conditioned. And when you
think about that, you're like, oh, okay, yeah, even our country,
like our you know, you see different cultures. There can
be different cultures within the United States, but you have
(19:55):
to see how we've evolved over time. In every decade
there's been a different maybe not every ten years, but
there's definitely since like the twenties, and then like there's
the fifties, the sixties and seventies, the nineties, like there's
different and now here we are with the look it up.
They'll show you a little graph that shows you how
bodies and the desired quote unquote is that we're using
(20:17):
a lot of quote. You can't see us quoting, but
what the desired body looks like and it changes all
the and you can't keep time, you can't keep up. Okay.
A really good example that I can give of how
this has shifted in my own life, very simple is
when I had negative body image. I thought to work
(20:38):
out wearing a certain kind of outfit, I had to
have a certain body and if I didn't, and I
didn't deserve to wear that, like being able to work
out in just like a sports bra or like biker
shorts or something like that, showing your stomach if you
didn't have abs. I thought that my ability to do
that depended on what my body looked like. Now that
I have this idea, I have positive body. And I
(21:00):
doesn't mean I like what my stomach looks like. But
I think, and I know and I believe that if
I'm hot and want to wear this outfit because I
think it's cute, I get to and it doesn't mean anything.
People don't get to have certain privileges in my head
and my belief system based on what they look like. Now.
The problem is also society is not totally caught up
(21:21):
with them. They're not there yet because certain certain the
way you look or this size or whatever definitely gives
you different privileges that other people do not have. Okay,
I want to go to this because I know we
wanted to talk about it earlier, but body neutrality. So
before we wrap up, let's touch on that okay. So
(21:43):
body neutrality is really something that has been debated alongside
body positivity. And I don't think I said this super clear,
but body positivity is different than the body positivity movement.
Body positivity is something that has been extracted from the movement,
and that's where you're getting the people who are capitalizing
on the movement to gain cloud followers, money, whatever it is.
(22:07):
So body positivity says, love your body, no matter what
it looks like. Body neutrality says, why are we talking
about it? Stop talking about our bodies. So that's part
of the whole. I feel like that puts the bow
on what we're saying. But here's the thing. I say
this with hair and like empathy, and you can choose
whatever you want to choose. If you want to be
body positive and that works for you, go for it.
(22:30):
If you want to be body neutrality, If you want
to be on that road and it works for you,
go for it. I just want you guys to be
really honest about what do I feel when I'm doing this,
and what is the messaging that this is sending me
and the people around me. I mean, I think that's
a fair challenge. So I'm in the realm that body
neutrality works better for me because I don't really find
(22:54):
it easier possible for me to look at my body
and love it no matter what it looks like. Sometimes
I get really ang with it, but then I can
come back to why does it matter? That says nothing
about you? You don't have to love it. You can
still be a really great person and go live your
life no matter what your stomach looks like today, no
matter what your hair looks like, no matter what color
your eyes are or the shape of your eyebrows like
(23:16):
it doesn't matter how fast you can run if you
really want to go to ability And that feels more
in line to me with the positive body image being
body neutral But I think what is confusing is people
think that I have to pick positive body image or
body neutrality, and they're actually they're similar. It's body positivity
that is not the same as body neutrality. Okay, so
(23:40):
confusing it is because they're like the same word. I mean,
we can maybe, yeah, I know, we need to come
with the new words for I'm trying to quite honestly,
that would be better. I'm trying to create like um
with Kate Kennedy did this ven diagram for like you
need a vendit. I'm trying to create a ven diagram,
but even I sit down and I'm like pulling my
hair out and I'm like, oh my gosh, and then
there's like new information and I'm like, my gosh. So
(24:00):
I'll try to do it and maybe we can get
that out to the world. Yeah. Ven Diagram coming soon
from Cat to Fata, which I highly encourage you all
to check out Cat's podcast. It's called You Need Therapy.
You should definitely subscribe so that way, when her episodes
load up, boom, they pop up on your phone and
there's always something amazing on there that you need to hear.
You never know that episode that you might just really
(24:23):
bring you comfort for a day. She has different guests
on all the time, just kidding. I've only been a
guest twice. Yeah, but I've only had like two returning
guests and you're one. Oh yeah. But she has other
guests that are, like you will in to experts and
stuff and written books and all that. And then Cat herself.
She she does episodes you know, sometimes just her, but
she is the expert and she has a lot of
(24:44):
amazing topics and puts therapy in away. Now. It's not
a replacement for therapy by any means, but you're just
so good at normalizing therapy but also putting it in
digestible because sometimes the jargon that people use. In my opinion,
I'll listen and I have to go listen again because
(25:04):
I don't know, but I feel like you do a
good job of explaining things. So check her out. Kat,
thank you so much for joining us, and actually Kat
will be on with us again next weekend as Lisa
continues her new journey as being a mom. But Lisa,
we'll be back very very soon, So check her out.
Give her a follow on Instagram Lisa if you have not,
because you need to send her a message to tell
(25:26):
her congrats on being a mom. And she's at Lisa
hame h a y I am all right. Bye,
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
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