June 28, 2025 • 35 mins
What's God Got To Do With It? With Leanne Ellington:
In the second episode titled "God In the Good," we pick up as Mattie Jackson continues sharing her transformative journey after losing her 28-year-old husband to a traumatic brain injury three weeks shy of their first wedding anniversary. She shared an inside peek behind her own healing process, and how God helped her shift her focus from everything she lost to everything she still had. In the midst of unthinkable tragedy, Mattie shares how she faced the challenges of moving beyond survival, facing grief, sorrow, and trauma, and rebuilding life with hope.
But God showed her life beyond this tragedy -- one that she could have never imagined....until she was ready for it.
She eventually found purpose in her grief, and shared the power of turning "your mess into your message" and finding fulfillment in impacting others who are struggling in similar ways. Through her work with Nashville (the non-profit she co-founded to support widows and orphans) and writing a memoir, Mattie found purpose, honoring her late husband's legacy and demonstrating the transformative potential of choosing joy amid pain.
She also shares about her journey to finding love again after the death of her husband. As she delves into her own redemption story, Mattieie shares how God not only redeemed her personal life but also her purpose-filled professional life, and now she truly believes in the coexistence of pain and joy, sharing her belief that when one has the courage to delve into the depths of pain, joy's well gets deeper
GUEST: @mattiejackson
Mattie's Website: https://www.mattiejackson.net/
Mattie's Podcast: In Joy Life Podcast
Mattie's Book: Lemons on Friday
HOST: Leanne Ellington // StresslessEating.com // @leanneellington
To learn more about Leanne, head over to www.LeanneEllington.com, and to share your thoughts, questions, feedback, or guest suggestions instantly, head on over to www.WhatsGodGotToDoWithIt.com.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
If you want to go on a journey. If you're skeptical,
don't worry. Now you're a preach. I'm gonna keep it
clean and talk to me and recall where faith meet
stars of nature and get in touch with your creator
with a bacon, love and June.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
She even speaks Hebrew.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
What's that got to do?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, sadpoation? You should talking transformation?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Dont hey?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Hey? We are back on What's God got to do
with it? We're back with the amazing Maddie Jackson. Hello again.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Good to be back and finish the story. Follow a
lighter note if you.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Week, Yeah, maybe if.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
You had a box of tissues exactly, this will be
hopefully tears of joy. Yeah, if you missed the last episode,
Mattie shared her honestly, it's a it's a one of
a kind story, transformation from the inside out, circumstantially and
internally and spiritually.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Definitely go back and listen to that. But Maddie is
an author, a podcaster, a speaker.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
She's also co founder of Nashville, a woman's philanthropic organization
that serves orphans, widows, and victims of human trafficking. She
hosts her own podcast, the Enjoy Life Podcast, and Scho'll
tell us about that as well.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
But you know, really we want to pick up where
we left on the last episode.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
You know, she shared this experience, you know, three weeks
shy of their first wedding anniversary, Maddie lost her twenty
eight year old husband very suddenly to a traumatic brain injury.
And since then she's really used her work and her
platform to share her grief, her healing, and her unshakable
faith with women.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And men across the country.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
But really, you know, we dove into the spiritual side,
like what happened underneath and in between all of that
that you didn't see and a lot of people don't
know takes place.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So you know, for anyone who is going through.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Anything and anyone who will be going through anything, So
that means anyone listening to.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
This, yes, really, yes, go back and check that out.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
But really we talked about like what got you through
those tumultuous times, kind of the survive aspect of God
in the heart right and so now you know, there's
this part of it is like okay, well, what what
happens next when you're in the thick of grief? And
sorrow and tragedy and trauma. You you, it's hard for
you to picture life after that or like what is
you know, is God.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Going to redeem this? Obviously we talked about the struggles
that you had.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Of you know, all the gamut of emotions of being
mad at God or you know, feeling like you needed
to forgive him and all of these things that are
just so relevant and common and human of you. But
part of it too is like I want people to
know that there is a beautiful cherry on.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Top, so to speak.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
You know, we talked about the extra and the all
the added bonus that happens when you just become you know,
comfortable in the knowingness of who you are and who
you are in the midst of tragedy. And we talked
about there's nothing like tragedy to bring it to your
knees and surrender and ask for God to fill you
up and rebirth you and renew you and give you
a spirit in ways that you maybe didn't have or know.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You needed before.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
So, you know, coming from where we left off on
the last episode, talk to us. You know, what has
happened in the past few years as the you know,
obviously you started getting to know yourself again, and you
started meeting yourself as you were integrating with other people
in the work that you do and then in your
personal life, your social life, your professional life, all of that.
So just kind of start bridging the gap for us,
(03:33):
bring us into your world and that side of your story.
And again, hopefully this will be encouragement and hope for
anybody who's going through anything.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
If anybody had hopelessness.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
And grief and sorrow and wondering like what the heck God,
you know, definitely go back and listen to Maddie's story,
but share with us, catch us up.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think one of the biggest things
for me.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
And this will sound simple, and I'm so thankful that
I feel like one of our buzzwords just in life
on socials with people as gratitude. Yeah, because while I
will never be thankful for what happened, a big turning
point and sort of springboard into life again and joy
again and hope again was a shift from focusing on
(04:18):
everything that I lost and simply focusing on everything that
I had. And that sounds trite and simple, but it's
really hard. And I think part of what I try
to encourage people with now if they're in the heart,
if they're with God in the heart and in the survival,
is like, don't miss the treasure. Like nothing about what
(04:39):
happened to you is good. Nothing about what happened to
you or what you're going through are you thankful for.
But there's a scripture that says, in everything, give thanks.
And it's very specific because it's not for everything, give thanks,
but it's in everything, give thanks. And that that really
is Again, we talked about agency of choosing small things
to give yourself life and joy. And you have the
(05:00):
ability to choose one thing to be grateful for that day,
and you have the ability to say, listen, man, that
guy loved me like a two thousand's rom com for
three years and some people don't get that sort of
experience ever. And so for that, I'm grateful. And what
I've loved for it to last ten twenty fifty, heck yeah.
But I think the power in gratitude is even greater
(05:22):
than we realize, and.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So I'm so thankful.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
That's something that's talked about a lot, but that's part
of what helps you springboard into what's next. And I
think the other big thing that was a big struggle
for me in a conversation that I have a lot
with people, is okay, once I get through survival, once
I start to get back to they call it a
new normal, which is kind of an annoying term.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
But that's actually what it is.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Like there are parts of me that are, say, Mattie,
I've always been, but I'm a very different person than
I was five years ago. And honestly, no, this is
not like self aggrandizing. It's in mostly ways that I'm
really glad, like I've grown in ways that I've told people, Man,
I'm thankful for the ways that I have grown in
compassion and patience and trust. That could have taken me
(06:08):
till I was sixty to learn, and I learned a
lot of that at thirty and for that I am
grateful absolutely. And so I think, even once you get
to that place of okay, what is my life going
to look like again? Like how do I move forward
in hope? Then you get to the next mountain, which
is do I have the courage to hope? I think
that's a thing that people don't talk about, like it's
(06:30):
really scary to hope. It's really scary to pray for
the things that you really really want again, coming from
a place where you know good and well, that answer
may not be yes, and maybe yes.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
That's like the last time I here's what happened exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
And that's really that's the fear that when you go
through any hardship or loss or disappointment, you have to
learn how to hold that reality but also not let
that reality dictate what you think the future is gonna
look like, because that's just not a joyful way.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It lives, not a hopeful way to live, and it's
not faith and it's not faith.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
And I think that for me is we're focusing on
relationships because that's my story, but like I want to
be married, I want to be a mom. That's that
has always been the thing that I guess I've sort
of idolized and put on a pedestal, which is what
I had to also take down. Part of that identity
conversation is like if that doesn't happen, I still love
who I am and I love what God's done in
(07:30):
my life and I'm gonna have.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
A great life.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yeah, but it takes courage to pray for those things again.
It takes courage to picture those things again, you know,
and knowing that it may not happen, and then even
let's double down once you get them, once you meet
you know, your Connor, who is my new husband, who
is a precious angel. I'd be lying if there's not
regular fear of like, please don't let this happen to
me again. So I think what I want to have
(07:54):
people here is, like, I get it scary to hope,
especially after you've lost something, and especially just knowing the.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Way that the world is. It's broken, like everything ends.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
At some point, you know, And my encouragement would be
honored the reality that that can happen. But don't let
that reality taint your future, because even if it does happen,
I mean, let's like, let's go in on it. Even
if I do lose Connor at some point in this life,
before you know, I go, you know, I pray we
(08:24):
go together.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
That's the dream. Like, sorry, future kids, I'll suck for you,
but like that's the prayer.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Right anyway, even if he does, I'm not gonna waste
however many hopefully decades and decades we have together worrying
about what could happen and letting it taint what's here, Like,
don't let fear rob the joy. The joy only exists
in the presence. And yeah, you're gonna go through more
hard stuff. I'm gonna go through more hard stuff. But like,
(08:50):
you're not doing yourselves any favors by letting it rob
the goodness that you're in right now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Absolutely, yeah, you said so many important things.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
You know, first and foremost, it's not like, oh, paint
roses and butterflies over a tragic situation.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
It's not like, oh, I'm so glad this happened.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
But you can choose how you decide to show up
in the face of it and really, you know, glean
the lessons of it, like what is now possible for
who am I going to become in the face of this?
And that's really what happened to you. You You created
an entire new identity in the face of that. And
if that's not something to praise God for, I don't
know what is now. Did it have to take tragedy
(09:24):
and loss and grief to do that?
Speaker 4 (09:26):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
That's not for us to you know, psychoanalyze, right, but
it did happen. You accepted the reality even though the
reality sucked. You know, you accepted it, and you decided
this is who going to be in the face of it.
I'm going to grieve it. I'm going to go through
my process. I'm going to spiritually, you know, wander the
wilderness and figure out who I want to be and
what I want to do. And you completely recreated your identity.
You you chose to give it the meaning. It was
(09:49):
more of a reframe rather than like paint roses and
butterflies on the air quotes negative. But the other really,
you know, powerful thing that you shared I want to
highlight is really we can positively anticipate our future or
we can negatively anticipate our future. It's really that black
and white and binary, like we are doing one or
the other, you know, And so part of it is
(10:09):
like you made a choice. You're like, I'm not going
to rob myself of my future by taking myself down
this rabbit hole of the what ifs and what if
this happens again, and all of the you know again,
the anxiety, the fear based thoughts, and you're human, they
slip in your mind, they come into your consciousness, but
you've chosen to focus on the good and allow your
(10:30):
mental real estate to be taken up by that hope
and that positive anticipation.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And again faith, like a.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Big thing for faith is like believing in what you
can't yet see your taste or smell or touch with
your human eyes, and just this knowingness also that whatever happens,
you know who and whose you are. Yeah, you know,
and that wasn't really a part of this for you
before Ben died. And so if we, you know, can
give God thanks for that, you know. And again it
(10:57):
sucks that Ben died, like there's nothing about that that
was good, and we're not going to try and reframe that,
you know, But who you became in the face of
it is this beautiful gift from God. And again it's
a testament to what's possible when you choose the reality
that you're going to live in, even in the midst
of unexplicable griefs.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So there's a scripture that I write in every book
that I sign.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
It's Roman Day twenty eight, and it says God works
all things together for good for those who love Him,
who are called according to His purpose. And the reason
I write that is not to tritely say everything's gonna
work out.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Good, like that's not the message. It's what I said
at the beginning.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
The message is that if you walk faithfully, and as
we talked about in last episode, you ask God like
he can't fix. He could not fix what was broken
for me. I mean he could if he wanted to, like,
but yeah, he wasn't going to bring Ben back to life.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
That couldn't be fixed.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
And so if my prayer changed from God, fix my
circumstance to Okay, I've got to do this, like I
can't not deal with this. God work the good in
me even though the situation can't be good, and like
that prayer is always yes. I could be a walking
testament to that. I mean when I said, like, don't
miss the treasure through the trial, that's the thing, Like
(12:20):
you are the treasure and maybe you will have these
other purposeful treasures and I pray you do like a
book and getting able to serve other widows like amazing,
so thankful, But you are the treasure and like you
are the.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Good and that is always yes.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
So that's what I would say, And that's part of
where my mind shift kind of really changed for the good. Yeah,
because it was less like make my life okay and
it was Okay, make my heart better, like, make me
a richer person, And that's the biggest treasure of all.
And that is also what enabled me to have the
(12:56):
courage to hope again, right, and and to have the
stability emotionally and mentally to start dating again and not
be doing it from a place of fear.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
So coming on this theme of like what was made
possible because of who you became in the face of
Ben's death, Like, just share with us some of the
ways that you found purpose in that grief and and
part of it is I picture you even having conversations
with Ben and being like Okay, Ben, like I'm gonna
go make you you know time, So can you share
a little bit about that, and like what happened off
the back of this and how did you turn that
(13:33):
pain into purpose?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
I mean you mentioned Nashville. So we function a little
bit more kind of as a foundation. We help channel
proceeds and profits to nonprofits that serve our orphans, widows
and trafking survivors. So through that there's two specific widow
groups we get to work with, which obviously is a
large portion of what I do. And I think I
heard somebody once say like, make your mess your message,
(13:57):
and I think that's a lot of what we all
have the opportunity to do. Maybe not on that scale,
but it's when you go through something all those women
I talked about at the beginning that I had to
look to their story to see hope because I didn't
see hope in my story.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
When you become that person.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Man, that's one of the most joyful, like fulfilling, grounding,
humbling experiences you can have, because, man, you know how
much your life matters because you're seeing your life impact
an individual who doesn't see hope.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So you know, and again that does have to be
an organization.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
That may be somebody that you know lives in your
neighborhood or you work with, or someone reaches out to
you to be like, hey, my friend just got divorced,
can you counsel?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Can you just like go get coffee with her?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Like, you have no idea how powerful that is to
bring purpose and joy and energy into your own life.
So I would say, if you have an opportunity like that, man,
lean into it. You don't have to have answers like
you don't have to no scripture, you don't have to
be a counselor. You just need to tell them your
story so they can have hope for their story. And
(15:01):
then you know, for me, I've always loved writing, and
that was how I processed everything that we've been talking about,
and that ended up, you know, being a book and
being a memoir. And again, I think it just goes
back to purpose. That made me feel like our marriage mattered.
It made me feel like my pain mattered, and it
made me feel like there was a legacy for our
(15:23):
marriage that was really short and in a way to
honor Ben. And I think that's really powerful and it
doesn't have to be super profound things like a book, like,
to be honest with you, Ben was a really, really
good golfer, and I've always loved sports, like I've always
played sports, but I never played golf. And so after
he passed a couple of years later, my brother in
(15:44):
law and then my other sister's boyfriend were going to
play and I was like, hey, like, I don't know
how to play, but can I come with y'all? Like
super annoying, like having no idea the etiquette of golf,
and I'm like sure, I'm just gonna go play nine
oers of golf look ridiculous, but you scored a touchdown.
I scored a time and a three pointer and I
learned to play golf and now I love it. And
(16:04):
it really just started as a way to feel close
to Ben. But then it turned into this thing where,
oh my gosh, I love being outdoors, I love nature,
I love being active like and really learned to play.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
And Connor's a big golfer.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
So now it's a thing that God totally like, hey,
just do this to make yourself feel close to Ben.
And now it's this whole like life and world. We
just Connor, I just wre on a golf trip like
to Montana.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I mean, it's just amazing. So I say that to
say it doesn't have to be profound.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
It can be something like that that you know, you
you pursue to feel close or to honor someone's legacy,
that makes you feel purposeful, absolutely and joyful.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah I don't even remember the question. Yeah, no, we're track.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
But also you just mentioned Connor, so can you fill
in those gaps for our listeners, because you know, obviously
you were grieving the death of Ben, and then of
course it's one of those things of like, you know, hey,
I still I want this life after after death so
to speak, and I want to be a wife and
I want to be a mom and all of these
roles that you still had desires to and you were
asking God to fill. But there was probably a point
(17:04):
when you knew you were already to start dating and
how did that and you obviously met this amazing man Connor,
So just share a little bit about that and how
your growth and your newfound identity came into play as
you stepped into you know, wife in a new light.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah. Well, the actual like meat cute story.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Connor's sister in law is one of my very best
friends from college, so I knew him, like we knew
each other and had been around it, you know, her
kid's birthday party is and stuff like that. But when
I started feeling like I wanted to date again, kind
of started like joking with Emily, his sister in law,
my friend about like, well, you know, if you know,
(17:44):
if you want to just like keep it in the family,
like you, I'd love for you to be my sister
in law. Like just kind of joking because I didn't
know that much about it, Like I knew he was
really handsome, and I knew he had the personality that
I'm always attracted to, the big grown up kid, joyful, playful,
just lighthearted like.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And I knew he was a great uncle.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Like I knew he loved their kids and took care
of their kids and had sleepovers with their kids.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And that's so important to me. So I knew it.
I knew him on that level, and like he was
attracted so it.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
At some point this became a real conversation and she said,
is this real or we just like joking around? And
I said, I mean, I don't really know that much
about him. I said, I think we'd have fun, Like
we might as well, like go to dinner or something.
So they ended up sort of fixing that up. He
had no idea what was going on. He was like,
this is weird, but like sure, yeah, So anyway, it
was obviously like a media we started dating, and so
(18:35):
it's kind of a funny storycause I'm like, oh, you
got served to me on a platter.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
You had no idea anyway to answer your question.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I think the difference the difference that I felt going
into that dating relationship versus all the ones in my twenties,
including Ben and I's is night and day because of
that identity thing. Like I went into this being like
and I told him this straight up, which was probably
a little aggressive. I was like, here's the thing, like
(19:04):
if we move forward, like if this is something you
need to know that, I don't need you, I just
want you and like to go into a relationship with
that sort of stability is so freeing, Like like I said,
like huge extra, Like he is the extra of my life.
But if if I lose him, I'll be me. I'll
(19:26):
still be me, you know. And so I think that's
what I would want people, you know, to hear, is
as you enter into anything a dating relationship especially, or
a new opportunity or a new city or a new season,
like to have that stability of who you are, just
make space for such an honest and free and like
(19:48):
fun interaction with another person or interaction with a new season.
I don't know, it just feels like I've been released
of the burden to white knuckle stuff. Yeah, because you
ca white knuckle anything into you know, staying and.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
The identity that you carved out that again you didn't
even maybe know that you needed or that you didn't have.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Or because when we're in it, we're in it, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
But that is what paved the way for you to
show up in the way that you needed to step
into this new relationship. And so also for anyone who
is coming off the back of any loss of a relationship,
whether it's death, whether it's divorce, whether it's just a
really heartbreak up, whatever it is, whether it's your decision
or somebody else's decision, it's still hard. I mean, if
you have the thought of like, oh, I don't know
if I'll ever love again, or I don't know if
(20:32):
i'll and there's that fear again, like you said, of hoping.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
What would you say to that?
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I would say what one of my mentors. What a
mentor said to me. She said, I don't know how
to explain this, but your heart just enlarges. Like that
sounds silly. She's like, you don't have kids, but if
you have kids, you're listening, It's like, okay, maybe you
do have a favorite child, but like you love them equally, right,
like you have another kid, and it just expands and
there is a way, and that's scary. Like, especially my situation,
(21:01):
the one thing I was scared of was how do
I be honest with a person that I'm gonna choose,
that i'm gonna love, that I'm gonna spend my life with,
and say, hey, look like I'm always gonna love him,
I'm always gonna miss him, Like I'm always gonna be
in touch with his family because they're always gonna, you know,
be my family. And in my case, it was even bigger,
(21:22):
Like Connor and I started dating a month before my
book came out. For the first six months of our relationship,
I was doing this. I was promoting our marriage and
my grief and my love for him. And to carry
anything you carry into a new relationship is scary, and
I think because mine was so big and so public,
I had no choice but to just lay it on
(21:43):
the table. And I think that's what I would want
people to hear, is like, obviously, don't lay it all
on the table at the first date. Like there's time
you need to have safety in connection with a person. Yeah,
but there is such grace and such deep connection and
relationship when you're secure enough in who you are to
(22:04):
bring the scary things that you're carrying with you to
a person that feels safe and like when you do
that just man, Like the intimacy and I don't mean
physical intimacy, but like, the intimacy is so crazy. And
I tell people all the times, like I don't love
him anymore than I loved Ben, but there is a
richness in me and a transparency in me and in us,
(22:26):
partly because we're older, but partly because of what I've
gone through and hard stuff that he's gone through. That
like is mind blowing totally, and it's scary. But if
that person, whether it's whatever person, someone in your immediate family,
someone you're dating, a spouse, a friend, whatever, if they
are safe, and that is the big asterisk caveat when
you can bring those.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Things, man, it's just beyond. It's beyond.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Like it's the next level intimacy because you found that
intimacy within yourself and that safety within yourself and the
identity with you. And I do want to kind of
highlight the order of opera, you know what I mean,
Like you've found a calmness and a peace and a
worthiness and the identity in who you are and who
you are, and then you brought that with you into
every air of your life. And dating was just one
(23:12):
of those areas you know, and it's not a coincidence.
Air quotes coincidence, right, that you attracted somebody who can
meet you in that level of safety and intimacy and
actually embrace it really and honor it and meet you
there and bring theirs to the table and the level
of connection and intimacy.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
That's available there.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
It's not possible without doing that first, you know, so
so beautiful and so happy for you. And I know
you know obviously every area of your life has been
impacted by that shift for you, so and that's like
really your redemption story when it comes to you know,
finding love and marriage again after Ben's death. How has
God redeemed your story professionally and with your purpose and
(23:51):
impact that you're making on others?
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Share with us a bit about your books, your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
How has God.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Redeemed your story professionally and with your purpose and impact
that you're making on others.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Share with us a bit about your books, your podcast Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, I'm so thankful. I just feel floored that it happens.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
And one thing that I feel like I hope my
life is a testament to people is being a writer
has been my dream since I was nineteen years old.
Like that's what I studied in college. I knew in
my soul, you know, you have those weights that you
just know this is what's going to happen. And I
felt a lot like I was wasting that and like
veering from the purpose and a lot of my twenties.
Although I wouldn't change anything about it. Right, everything builds,
(24:38):
It all paved the way everything builds to tomorrow, right
in a good way. But the fact that not only
did God redeem this nightmare that happened to me, he
used the nightmare to give me the dream that I
always wanted.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And just like, that's how good he is.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
That's like his middle name is capital R redemption everything.
That's how he uses the brokenness when we give it
to him. But obviously the book is it's really just
my heart on paper. It's like a memoir through the
first couple of years of my grief and healing. And
as you, I think so nicely put earlier, I hope
(25:16):
it gives everybody permission to be human.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I didn't do this as well as it's probably coming
off on this podcast.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
I made mistakes and I grieved poorly and got angry,
and things come out sideways and I include that in
my story because I want people to know, like you
need to live honestly, and living honestly means feeling the
depths of the hurt, forgiving yourself when you don't hurt well,
(25:44):
and also never letting go of hope in the other hand,
and like that's what you do. So that's Lemons. And
then you know, after sort of that coming out in
the last couple of years, I realized, Okay, I don't
want this to be the end of my story. I
don't want to always be the grief girl, and I
(26:04):
want my life to move forward. And so I thought,
what is the feeling, what is the message? What is
the impression I hope people walk away from with me
in the book on a podcast, you know, at coffee
or overwine for thirty minutes, like and I really felt like, man,
you can choose joy.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And then I go back through the book and it's
just like.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
All through there is like what I learned is pain
and joy don't only coexist, but like when you have
the courage to go into the depths of the pain,
like you're well for, joy gets deeper with it, like
they rise and fall together. And so because I have
hurt in such profound ways. I feel like my joy
(26:47):
basket is just it's it's overflowing, because that's just the
reward for human being hard.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
I mean, really, if you choose it.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
And so that's what my podcast is is a lot
of stories not necessarily just like my but people who
are in a season where that joy wouldn't maybe be
the immediate, you know, reaction, and so how are they
navigating human being honestly and also making those little choices
or big choices like we talked about, to choose joy,
(27:17):
because the truth is we don't have a lot of
control over what happens to us or around us, but
we do have the opportunity to choose things that will
bring joy, that will set our mind on things that
are are good, noble, worthy, happy, And so that's that's
what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, you said so many powerful things, but two big
nuggets that I'm so glad that you shared it on
here is you know, first, that distinction of human being hard,
and you said, you know, your mess is your message
and like humaning hard can be messy, you know, but
there's so much beauty in the mess and in the chaos,
you know, and when you seek it and when you
give it the meaning again.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Don't don't skip over the sock like you've got to feel.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
You've got to grieve, You've got to be and there's
no and it doesn't have to be logical or reasonable
or you know, any perfect way of doing it.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
You know, it's just it just is but giving yourself
permission to be in the mess, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
But also how you talk about this idea that when
you experience so much sorrow and grief, it actually expands
your capacity to receive love and joy wild you know,
and just like you said, your heart gets bigger with
each kid or with each you know, it really does
expand it, and then you become open to you know, pain.
But the flip side of pain is that joy and
that love and the receiving of that. So I'm so
(28:29):
glad that you touched on those things. And thank you
for just being so vulnerable and sharing your heart and
sharing your message and sharing your purpose because it really God.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
I keep saying God has redeemed this, but.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
He first and foremost, he like redeemed your spirit in
a way, like you went home and completely recreated yourself in.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
His eyes, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
And stripped yourself of those those identities, and then because
of that and who you became in the face of that,
everything else was possible in what you're doing now. So
we'll definitely link everything that you shared in the show notes.
Before we wrap up, we do kind of like an
end of show hot seat. Okay, so you game, yeah, okay,
all right, cool. So the first one is this, I'll
let you pick one.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
The first one is you can pick between a spiritual
soundtrack or a spiritual bookshelf. So spiritual soundtrack would be,
you know, a song or a piece of music that
has you know, special significance to you and maybe why.
Or a spiritual bookshelf so you know, maybe there's a
book or scripture or spiritual text that has had a
profound impact on your journey.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So spiritual soundtrack or spiritual bookshelf.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
I mean I have to obviously shameless plug Lemons on Friday.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Okay, there you go, please please, I have to, but
I'll do.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
The soundtrack there.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
I was thinking about this and I actually saved a
playlist from the first couple of months after it been
passed and listened to it sometimes. And there's a song
by Mercy me called the Hurt and the Healer, and
that was my anthem for sure for a long time.
It's a beautiful, beautiful song, and it's the chorus is
I'm alive even though a part of me has died.
(29:59):
You take my heart, breathe it back to life. I'll
fall into your arms open wide when the hurt and
the healer collide. So it's like basically that wow, sacred,
really sucky, but sacred place where your hurt and God
the healer collide and he restores and redeemed and brings
you back to life, and there's just no greater again
(30:22):
intimacy or connection or depth with God. I hate that
that's what happens, but it really is like any other relationship,
like when you go through the fire with a person
and you survive, like your connection and your trust and
your intimacy is so much richer, and like that's true
with God.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And of
course plug in your book as well. Yeah, we got
we got both, they got the soundtrack and the bookshelf.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Awesome.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
This next question in our hot seat, I call it
failures redeemed and obviously a part of it you've already shared,
but maybe there's something else that comes to mind too,
but like share about a time when your faith was tested,
or when you found yourself in a situation that felt
like a failure or a setback or a regression, but
God used that and redeemed it and turned it into
a massive blessing or lesson.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
Yeah, I mean I mentioned closing my business at the beginning,
which really felt like a huge failure, even though I
felt God being like, yeah, this is the right move.
But I look back in the number of times that
I just was almost tearfully thankful that that happened, because
if anybody's in like the hospitality industry, you know, and
(31:29):
it was new, and it was my business like I was,
you know, twelve to fifteen hours a day, and that's
what you do, that's what you put into it.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
And I knew in my heart if I had not
had those.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Two months or two and a half months of that
summer where I was just with him, we traveled with
both our families, like got a puppy, like we did
the whole thing, And if I hadn't had that, I
knew I would be living with a lot of regret.
And so I think in that failure quote unquote, which
it was kind of a financial failure. God gave me
that summer, which I think in turn spared me from
(32:01):
a lot of regret.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Wow, And I'm so thankful for that.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
And I think if you want to double down on
a spiritual level, there are well one time specifically, but
a couple of times, you know, I talked about not
always human.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Being hard well or grieving well.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
And there were a handful of times where I really
went to the wrong place and the wrong person to
try to just I think, feel safety and love and
like we all do. And and I remember a specific
moment just feeling one morning so ashamed, you know, of
the way that I had tried to kind of comfort
(32:38):
myself and like going to knowing as a crit like
knowing that what you do is you confess to the
Lord and like, dude, your covert, like you're forgiven, there's
nothing but just feeling so much shame that I literally
like physically had my head down and like my shoulders hunched,
as if there was a physical person that I was
confessing to.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Couldn't even like pray about it.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
And it was again that's a like kind of in
my head voice, like the job story, and it was
it was Jesus being like, don't hang your head, this
is what I died for.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Wow, And like I mean just I've chills again saying it.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
It's like obviously, like that's the gospel, that's what I've said,
I've believed since I was twelve years old. But to
be in that failure, that like moral failure, emotional hangover failure,
and to just hear again like from God like don't
not only are you forgiven, but like don't hang your head,
like look at my face, like run in my arms,
(33:33):
like this is what I died for is And that's
and then so I carry that with me like any
any time that I feel shame, it's like I re
experience that moment and it's like I'm not just tolerating you,
like I came so that you never have.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
To feel this way again. Yeah, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
It's like and this is why we need him, Yeah,
this is why we can't do it on our own.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, because we would hang our head and slump our
shoulders and carry that around in a rabbit hole for days, weeks, months,
who knows the whole lives.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, And that grace is so much bigger in the
failure moment.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Absolutely, and it's that repetitive reward so to speak from
that moment that you and you got the lesson. Yeah,
oh well, thank you so much for sharing that. Thank
you for sharing everything, Thank you for having grateful Yes,
where can people find you and follow you?
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:15):
So, I'm just Mattie Jackson on Instagram Mattie Jackson dot net.
I have like my book and the podcast link. My
podcast is called enjoy Life. It's I n joy Life
and that's basically arian.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, thank you so much for being here, and this
is us signing out for now.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Ay, thanks bye.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
We'll be back with more What's God Got to Do
with It?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
But in the meantime, I would definitely love to hear
from you, So just tell me where you are in
your story or maybe what questions you have, like where
do you feel you need clarity or support or wisdom
in your own journey. I definitely want to hear from you,
So head on over to What's God Got to Do
with It dot com and scroll down to the form
(34:59):
to share your your thoughts, your questions, your feedback and
you can do that instantly. So, What's God Got to
Do with It dot com. You'll find all the ways
to do that. And if you like this podcast and
want to hear more, go ahead and follow, like, and
subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts to get your weekly
dose of What's God Got to Do With It? New
(35:19):
episodes drop every single Tuesday, and while you're there, be sure.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
To rate and review to show your support. It really
means so much.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
What's God Got to Do With It is an iHeartRadio
podcast on the Amy Brown Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
It's written and hosted by
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Me Leanne Ellington, executive produced by Elizabeth Fozzio, post production
and editing by Houston Tilley, and original music written by
Cheryl Stark and produced by Adam Stark
If you want to go on a journey. If you're skeptical,
don't worry. Now you're a preach. I'm gonna keep it
clean and talk to me and recall where faith meet
stars of nature and get in touch with your creator
with a bacon, love and June.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
She even speaks Hebrew.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
What's that got to do?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, sadpoation? You should talking transformation?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Dont hey?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Hey? We are back on What's God got to do
with it? We're back with the amazing Maddie Jackson. Hello again.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Good to be back and finish the story. Follow a
lighter note if you.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Week, Yeah, maybe if.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
You had a box of tissues exactly, this will be
hopefully tears of joy. Yeah, if you missed the last episode,
Mattie shared her honestly, it's a it's a one of
a kind story, transformation from the inside out, circumstantially and
internally and spiritually.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Definitely go back and listen to that. But Maddie is
an author, a podcaster, a speaker.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
She's also co founder of Nashville, a woman's philanthropic organization
that serves orphans, widows, and victims of human trafficking. She
hosts her own podcast, the Enjoy Life Podcast, and Scho'll
tell us about that as well.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
But you know, really we want to pick up where
we left on the last episode.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
You know, she shared this experience, you know, three weeks
shy of their first wedding anniversary, Maddie lost her twenty
eight year old husband very suddenly to a traumatic brain injury.
And since then she's really used her work and her
platform to share her grief, her healing, and her unshakable
faith with women.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And men across the country.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
But really, you know, we dove into the spiritual side,
like what happened underneath and in between all of that
that you didn't see and a lot of people don't
know takes place.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So you know, for anyone who is going through.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Anything and anyone who will be going through anything, So
that means anyone listening to.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
This, yes, really, yes, go back and check that out.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
But really we talked about like what got you through
those tumultuous times, kind of the survive aspect of God
in the heart right and so now you know, there's
this part of it is like okay, well, what what
happens next when you're in the thick of grief? And
sorrow and tragedy and trauma. You you, it's hard for
you to picture life after that or like what is
you know, is God.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Going to redeem this? Obviously we talked about the struggles
that you had.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Of you know, all the gamut of emotions of being
mad at God or you know, feeling like you needed
to forgive him and all of these things that are
just so relevant and common and human of you. But
part of it too is like I want people to
know that there is a beautiful cherry on.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Top, so to speak.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
You know, we talked about the extra and the all
the added bonus that happens when you just become you know,
comfortable in the knowingness of who you are and who
you are in the midst of tragedy. And we talked
about there's nothing like tragedy to bring it to your
knees and surrender and ask for God to fill you
up and rebirth you and renew you and give you
a spirit in ways that you maybe didn't have or know.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You needed before.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
So, you know, coming from where we left off on
the last episode, talk to us. You know, what has
happened in the past few years as the you know,
obviously you started getting to know yourself again, and you
started meeting yourself as you were integrating with other people
in the work that you do and then in your
personal life, your social life, your professional life, all of that.
So just kind of start bridging the gap for us,
(03:33):
bring us into your world and that side of your story.
And again, hopefully this will be encouragement and hope for
anybody who's going through anything.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
If anybody had hopelessness.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
And grief and sorrow and wondering like what the heck God,
you know, definitely go back and listen to Maddie's story,
but share with us, catch us up.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think one of the biggest things
for me.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
And this will sound simple, and I'm so thankful that
I feel like one of our buzzwords just in life
on socials with people as gratitude. Yeah, because while I
will never be thankful for what happened, a big turning
point and sort of springboard into life again and joy
again and hope again was a shift from focusing on
(04:18):
everything that I lost and simply focusing on everything that
I had. And that sounds trite and simple, but it's
really hard. And I think part of what I try
to encourage people with now if they're in the heart,
if they're with God in the heart and in the survival,
is like, don't miss the treasure. Like nothing about what
(04:39):
happened to you is good. Nothing about what happened to
you or what you're going through are you thankful for.
But there's a scripture that says, in everything, give thanks.
And it's very specific because it's not for everything, give thanks,
but it's in everything, give thanks. And that that really
is Again, we talked about agency of choosing small things
to give yourself life and joy. And you have the
(05:00):
ability to choose one thing to be grateful for that day,
and you have the ability to say, listen, man, that
guy loved me like a two thousand's rom com for
three years and some people don't get that sort of
experience ever. And so for that, I'm grateful. And what
I've loved for it to last ten twenty fifty, heck yeah.
But I think the power in gratitude is even greater
(05:22):
than we realize, and.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So I'm so thankful.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
That's something that's talked about a lot, but that's part
of what helps you springboard into what's next. And I
think the other big thing that was a big struggle
for me in a conversation that I have a lot
with people, is okay, once I get through survival, once
I start to get back to they call it a
new normal, which is kind of an annoying term.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
But that's actually what it is.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Like there are parts of me that are, say, Mattie,
I've always been, but I'm a very different person than
I was five years ago. And honestly, no, this is
not like self aggrandizing. It's in mostly ways that I'm
really glad, like I've grown in ways that I've told people, Man,
I'm thankful for the ways that I have grown in
compassion and patience and trust. That could have taken me
(06:08):
till I was sixty to learn, and I learned a
lot of that at thirty and for that I am
grateful absolutely. And so I think, even once you get
to that place of okay, what is my life going
to look like again? Like how do I move forward
in hope? Then you get to the next mountain, which
is do I have the courage to hope? I think
that's a thing that people don't talk about, like it's
(06:30):
really scary to hope. It's really scary to pray for
the things that you really really want again, coming from
a place where you know good and well, that answer
may not be yes, and maybe yes.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
That's like the last time I here's what happened exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
And that's really that's the fear that when you go
through any hardship or loss or disappointment, you have to
learn how to hold that reality but also not let
that reality dictate what you think the future is gonna
look like, because that's just not a joyful way.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It lives, not a hopeful way to live, and it's
not faith and it's not faith.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
And I think that for me is we're focusing on
relationships because that's my story, but like I want to
be married, I want to be a mom. That's that
has always been the thing that I guess I've sort
of idolized and put on a pedestal, which is what
I had to also take down. Part of that identity
conversation is like if that doesn't happen, I still love
who I am and I love what God's done in
(07:30):
my life and I'm gonna have.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
A great life.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yeah, but it takes courage to pray for those things again.
It takes courage to picture those things again, you know,
and knowing that it may not happen, and then even
let's double down once you get them, once you meet
you know, your Connor, who is my new husband, who
is a precious angel. I'd be lying if there's not
regular fear of like, please don't let this happen to
me again. So I think what I want to have
(07:54):
people here is, like, I get it scary to hope,
especially after you've lost something, and especially just knowing the.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Way that the world is. It's broken, like everything ends.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
At some point, you know, And my encouragement would be
honored the reality that that can happen. But don't let
that reality taint your future, because even if it does happen,
I mean, let's like, let's go in on it. Even
if I do lose Connor at some point in this life,
before you know, I go, you know, I pray we
(08:24):
go together.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
That's the dream. Like, sorry, future kids, I'll suck for you,
but like that's the prayer.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Right anyway, even if he does, I'm not gonna waste
however many hopefully decades and decades we have together worrying
about what could happen and letting it taint what's here, Like,
don't let fear rob the joy. The joy only exists
in the presence. And yeah, you're gonna go through more
hard stuff. I'm gonna go through more hard stuff. But like,
(08:50):
you're not doing yourselves any favors by letting it rob
the goodness that you're in right now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Absolutely, yeah, you said so many important things.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
You know, first and foremost, it's not like, oh, paint
roses and butterflies over a tragic situation.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
It's not like, oh, I'm so glad this happened.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
But you can choose how you decide to show up
in the face of it and really, you know, glean
the lessons of it, like what is now possible for
who am I going to become in the face of this?
And that's really what happened to you. You You created
an entire new identity in the face of that. And
if that's not something to praise God for, I don't
know what is now. Did it have to take tragedy
(09:24):
and loss and grief to do that?
Speaker 4 (09:26):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
That's not for us to you know, psychoanalyze, right, but
it did happen. You accepted the reality even though the
reality sucked. You know, you accepted it, and you decided
this is who going to be in the face of it.
I'm going to grieve it. I'm going to go through
my process. I'm going to spiritually, you know, wander the
wilderness and figure out who I want to be and
what I want to do. And you completely recreated your identity.
You you chose to give it the meaning. It was
(09:49):
more of a reframe rather than like paint roses and
butterflies on the air quotes negative. But the other really,
you know, powerful thing that you shared I want to
highlight is really we can positively anticipate our future or
we can negatively anticipate our future. It's really that black
and white and binary, like we are doing one or
the other, you know, And so part of it is
(10:09):
like you made a choice. You're like, I'm not going
to rob myself of my future by taking myself down
this rabbit hole of the what ifs and what if
this happens again, and all of the you know again,
the anxiety, the fear based thoughts, and you're human, they
slip in your mind, they come into your consciousness, but
you've chosen to focus on the good and allow your
(10:30):
mental real estate to be taken up by that hope
and that positive anticipation.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And again faith, like a.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Big thing for faith is like believing in what you
can't yet see your taste or smell or touch with
your human eyes, and just this knowingness also that whatever happens,
you know who and whose you are. Yeah, you know,
and that wasn't really a part of this for you
before Ben died. And so if we, you know, can
give God thanks for that, you know. And again it
(10:57):
sucks that Ben died, like there's nothing about that that
was good, and we're not going to try and reframe that,
you know, But who you became in the face of
it is this beautiful gift from God. And again it's
a testament to what's possible when you choose the reality
that you're going to live in, even in the midst
of unexplicable griefs.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So there's a scripture that I write in every book
that I sign.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
It's Roman Day twenty eight, and it says God works
all things together for good for those who love Him,
who are called according to His purpose. And the reason
I write that is not to tritely say everything's gonna
work out.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Good, like that's not the message. It's what I said
at the beginning.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
The message is that if you walk faithfully, and as
we talked about in last episode, you ask God like
he can't fix. He could not fix what was broken
for me. I mean he could if he wanted to, like,
but yeah, he wasn't going to bring Ben back to life.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
That couldn't be fixed.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
And so if my prayer changed from God, fix my
circumstance to Okay, I've got to do this, like I
can't not deal with this. God work the good in
me even though the situation can't be good, and like
that prayer is always yes. I could be a walking
testament to that. I mean when I said, like, don't
miss the treasure through the trial, that's the thing, Like
(12:20):
you are the treasure and maybe you will have these
other purposeful treasures and I pray you do like a
book and getting able to serve other widows like amazing,
so thankful, But you are the treasure and like you
are the.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Good and that is always yes.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
So that's what I would say, And that's part of
where my mind shift kind of really changed for the good. Yeah,
because it was less like make my life okay and
it was Okay, make my heart better, like, make me
a richer person, And that's the biggest treasure of all.
And that is also what enabled me to have the
(12:56):
courage to hope again, right, and and to have the
stability emotionally and mentally to start dating again and not
be doing it from a place of fear.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
So coming on this theme of like what was made
possible because of who you became in the face of
Ben's death, Like, just share with us some of the
ways that you found purpose in that grief and and
part of it is I picture you even having conversations
with Ben and being like Okay, Ben, like I'm gonna
go make you you know time, So can you share
a little bit about that, and like what happened off
the back of this and how did you turn that
(13:33):
pain into purpose?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
I mean you mentioned Nashville. So we function a little
bit more kind of as a foundation. We help channel
proceeds and profits to nonprofits that serve our orphans, widows
and trafking survivors. So through that there's two specific widow
groups we get to work with, which obviously is a
large portion of what I do. And I think I
heard somebody once say like, make your mess your message,
(13:57):
and I think that's a lot of what we all
have the opportunity to do. Maybe not on that scale,
but it's when you go through something all those women
I talked about at the beginning that I had to
look to their story to see hope because I didn't
see hope in my story.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
When you become that person.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Man, that's one of the most joyful, like fulfilling, grounding,
humbling experiences you can have, because, man, you know how
much your life matters because you're seeing your life impact
an individual who doesn't see hope.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So you know, and again that does have to be
an organization.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
That may be somebody that you know lives in your
neighborhood or you work with, or someone reaches out to
you to be like, hey, my friend just got divorced,
can you counsel?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Can you just like go get coffee with her?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Like, you have no idea how powerful that is to
bring purpose and joy and energy into your own life.
So I would say, if you have an opportunity like that, man,
lean into it. You don't have to have answers like
you don't have to no scripture, you don't have to
be a counselor. You just need to tell them your
story so they can have hope for their story. And
(15:01):
then you know, for me, I've always loved writing, and
that was how I processed everything that we've been talking about,
and that ended up, you know, being a book and
being a memoir. And again, I think it just goes
back to purpose. That made me feel like our marriage mattered.
It made me feel like my pain mattered, and it
made me feel like there was a legacy for our
(15:23):
marriage that was really short and in a way to
honor Ben. And I think that's really powerful and it
doesn't have to be super profound things like a book, like,
to be honest with you, Ben was a really, really
good golfer, and I've always loved sports, like I've always
played sports, but I never played golf. And so after
he passed a couple of years later, my brother in
(15:44):
law and then my other sister's boyfriend were going to
play and I was like, hey, like, I don't know
how to play, but can I come with y'all? Like
super annoying, like having no idea the etiquette of golf,
and I'm like sure, I'm just gonna go play nine
oers of golf look ridiculous, but you scored a touchdown.
I scored a time and a three pointer and I
learned to play golf and now I love it. And
(16:04):
it really just started as a way to feel close
to Ben. But then it turned into this thing where,
oh my gosh, I love being outdoors, I love nature,
I love being active like and really learned to play.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
And Connor's a big golfer.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
So now it's a thing that God totally like, hey,
just do this to make yourself feel close to Ben.
And now it's this whole like life and world. We
just Connor, I just wre on a golf trip like
to Montana.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I mean, it's just amazing. So I say that to
say it doesn't have to be profound.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
It can be something like that that you know, you
you pursue to feel close or to honor someone's legacy,
that makes you feel purposeful, absolutely and joyful.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah I don't even remember the question. Yeah, no, we're track.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
But also you just mentioned Connor, so can you fill
in those gaps for our listeners, because you know, obviously
you were grieving the death of Ben, and then of
course it's one of those things of like, you know, hey,
I still I want this life after after death so
to speak, and I want to be a wife and
I want to be a mom and all of these
roles that you still had desires to and you were
asking God to fill. But there was probably a point
(17:04):
when you knew you were already to start dating and
how did that and you obviously met this amazing man Connor,
So just share a little bit about that and how
your growth and your newfound identity came into play as
you stepped into you know, wife in a new light.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah. Well, the actual like meat cute story.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Connor's sister in law is one of my very best
friends from college, so I knew him, like we knew
each other and had been around it, you know, her
kid's birthday party is and stuff like that. But when
I started feeling like I wanted to date again, kind
of started like joking with Emily, his sister in law,
my friend about like, well, you know, if you know,
(17:44):
if you want to just like keep it in the family,
like you, I'd love for you to be my sister
in law. Like just kind of joking because I didn't
know that much about it, Like I knew he was
really handsome, and I knew he had the personality that
I'm always attracted to, the big grown up kid, joyful, playful,
just lighthearted like.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And I knew he was a great uncle.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Like I knew he loved their kids and took care
of their kids and had sleepovers with their kids.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And that's so important to me. So I knew it.
I knew him on that level, and like he was
attracted so it.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
At some point this became a real conversation and she said,
is this real or we just like joking around? And
I said, I mean, I don't really know that much
about him. I said, I think we'd have fun, Like
we might as well, like go to dinner or something.
So they ended up sort of fixing that up. He
had no idea what was going on. He was like,
this is weird, but like sure, yeah, So anyway, it
was obviously like a media we started dating, and so
(18:35):
it's kind of a funny storycause I'm like, oh, you
got served to me on a platter.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
You had no idea anyway to answer your question.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I think the difference the difference that I felt going
into that dating relationship versus all the ones in my twenties,
including Ben and I's is night and day because of
that identity thing. Like I went into this being like
and I told him this straight up, which was probably
a little aggressive. I was like, here's the thing, like
(19:04):
if we move forward, like if this is something you
need to know that, I don't need you, I just
want you and like to go into a relationship with
that sort of stability is so freeing, Like like I said,
like huge extra, Like he is the extra of my life.
But if if I lose him, I'll be me. I'll
(19:26):
still be me, you know. And so I think that's
what I would want people, you know, to hear, is
as you enter into anything a dating relationship especially, or
a new opportunity or a new city or a new season,
like to have that stability of who you are, just
make space for such an honest and free and like
(19:48):
fun interaction with another person or interaction with a new season.
I don't know, it just feels like I've been released
of the burden to white knuckle stuff. Yeah, because you
ca white knuckle anything into you know, staying and.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
The identity that you carved out that again you didn't
even maybe know that you needed or that you didn't have.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Or because when we're in it, we're in it, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
But that is what paved the way for you to
show up in the way that you needed to step
into this new relationship. And so also for anyone who
is coming off the back of any loss of a relationship,
whether it's death, whether it's divorce, whether it's just a
really heartbreak up, whatever it is, whether it's your decision
or somebody else's decision, it's still hard. I mean, if
you have the thought of like, oh, I don't know
if I'll ever love again, or I don't know if
(20:32):
i'll and there's that fear again, like you said, of hoping.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
What would you say to that?
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I would say what one of my mentors. What a
mentor said to me. She said, I don't know how
to explain this, but your heart just enlarges. Like that
sounds silly. She's like, you don't have kids, but if
you have kids, you're listening, It's like, okay, maybe you
do have a favorite child, but like you love them equally, right,
like you have another kid, and it just expands and
there is a way, and that's scary. Like, especially my situation,
(21:01):
the one thing I was scared of was how do
I be honest with a person that I'm gonna choose,
that i'm gonna love, that I'm gonna spend my life with,
and say, hey, look like I'm always gonna love him,
I'm always gonna miss him, Like I'm always gonna be
in touch with his family because they're always gonna, you know,
be my family. And in my case, it was even bigger,
(21:22):
Like Connor and I started dating a month before my
book came out. For the first six months of our relationship,
I was doing this. I was promoting our marriage and
my grief and my love for him. And to carry
anything you carry into a new relationship is scary, and
I think because mine was so big and so public,
I had no choice but to just lay it on
(21:43):
the table. And I think that's what I would want
people to hear, is like, obviously, don't lay it all
on the table at the first date. Like there's time
you need to have safety in connection with a person. Yeah,
but there is such grace and such deep connection and
relationship when you're secure enough in who you are to
(22:04):
bring the scary things that you're carrying with you to
a person that feels safe and like when you do
that just man, Like the intimacy and I don't mean
physical intimacy, but like, the intimacy is so crazy. And
I tell people all the times, like I don't love
him anymore than I loved Ben, but there is a
richness in me and a transparency in me and in us,
(22:26):
partly because we're older, but partly because of what I've
gone through and hard stuff that he's gone through. That
like is mind blowing totally, and it's scary. But if
that person, whether it's whatever person, someone in your immediate family,
someone you're dating, a spouse, a friend, whatever, if they
are safe, and that is the big asterisk caveat when
you can bring those.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Things, man, it's just beyond. It's beyond.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Like it's the next level intimacy because you found that
intimacy within yourself and that safety within yourself and the
identity with you. And I do want to kind of
highlight the order of opera, you know what I mean,
Like you've found a calmness and a peace and a
worthiness and the identity in who you are and who
you are, and then you brought that with you into
every air of your life. And dating was just one
(23:12):
of those areas you know, and it's not a coincidence.
Air quotes coincidence, right, that you attracted somebody who can
meet you in that level of safety and intimacy and
actually embrace it really and honor it and meet you
there and bring theirs to the table and the level
of connection and intimacy.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
That's available there.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
It's not possible without doing that first, you know, so
so beautiful and so happy for you. And I know
you know obviously every area of your life has been
impacted by that shift for you, so and that's like
really your redemption story when it comes to you know,
finding love and marriage again after Ben's death. How has
God redeemed your story professionally and with your purpose and
(23:51):
impact that you're making on others?
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Share with us a bit about your books, your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
How has God.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Redeemed your story professionally and with your purpose and impact
that you're making on others.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Share with us a bit about your books, your podcast Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, I'm so thankful. I just feel floored that it happens.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
And one thing that I feel like I hope my
life is a testament to people is being a writer
has been my dream since I was nineteen years old.
Like that's what I studied in college. I knew in
my soul, you know, you have those weights that you
just know this is what's going to happen. And I
felt a lot like I was wasting that and like
veering from the purpose and a lot of my twenties.
Although I wouldn't change anything about it. Right, everything builds,
(24:38):
It all paved the way everything builds to tomorrow, right
in a good way. But the fact that not only
did God redeem this nightmare that happened to me, he
used the nightmare to give me the dream that I
always wanted.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And just like, that's how good he is.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
That's like his middle name is capital R redemption everything.
That's how he uses the brokenness when we give it
to him. But obviously the book is it's really just
my heart on paper. It's like a memoir through the
first couple of years of my grief and healing. And
as you, I think so nicely put earlier, I hope
(25:16):
it gives everybody permission to be human.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I didn't do this as well as it's probably coming
off on this podcast.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
I made mistakes and I grieved poorly and got angry,
and things come out sideways and I include that in
my story because I want people to know, like you
need to live honestly, and living honestly means feeling the
depths of the hurt, forgiving yourself when you don't hurt well,
(25:44):
and also never letting go of hope in the other hand,
and like that's what you do. So that's Lemons. And
then you know, after sort of that coming out in
the last couple of years, I realized, Okay, I don't
want this to be the end of my story. I
don't want to always be the grief girl, and I
(26:04):
want my life to move forward. And so I thought,
what is the feeling, what is the message? What is
the impression I hope people walk away from with me
in the book on a podcast, you know, at coffee
or overwine for thirty minutes, like and I really felt like, man,
you can choose joy.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And then I go back through the book and it's
just like.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
All through there is like what I learned is pain
and joy don't only coexist, but like when you have
the courage to go into the depths of the pain,
like you're well for, joy gets deeper with it, like
they rise and fall together. And so because I have
hurt in such profound ways. I feel like my joy
(26:47):
basket is just it's it's overflowing, because that's just the
reward for human being hard.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
I mean, really, if you choose it.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
And so that's what my podcast is is a lot
of stories not necessarily just like my but people who
are in a season where that joy wouldn't maybe be
the immediate, you know, reaction, and so how are they
navigating human being honestly and also making those little choices
or big choices like we talked about, to choose joy,
(27:17):
because the truth is we don't have a lot of
control over what happens to us or around us, but
we do have the opportunity to choose things that will
bring joy, that will set our mind on things that
are are good, noble, worthy, happy, And so that's that's
what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, you said so many powerful things, but two big
nuggets that I'm so glad that you shared it on
here is you know, first, that distinction of human being hard,
and you said, you know, your mess is your message
and like humaning hard can be messy, you know, but
there's so much beauty in the mess and in the chaos,
you know, and when you seek it and when you
give it the meaning again.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Don't don't skip over the sock like you've got to feel.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
You've got to grieve, You've got to be and there's
no and it doesn't have to be logical or reasonable
or you know, any perfect way of doing it.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
You know, it's just it just is but giving yourself
permission to be in the mess, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
But also how you talk about this idea that when
you experience so much sorrow and grief, it actually expands
your capacity to receive love and joy wild you know,
and just like you said, your heart gets bigger with
each kid or with each you know, it really does
expand it, and then you become open to you know, pain.
But the flip side of pain is that joy and
that love and the receiving of that. So I'm so
(28:29):
glad that you touched on those things. And thank you
for just being so vulnerable and sharing your heart and
sharing your message and sharing your purpose because it really God.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
I keep saying God has redeemed this, but.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
He first and foremost, he like redeemed your spirit in
a way, like you went home and completely recreated yourself in.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
His eyes, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
And stripped yourself of those those identities, and then because
of that and who you became in the face of that,
everything else was possible in what you're doing now. So
we'll definitely link everything that you shared in the show notes.
Before we wrap up, we do kind of like an
end of show hot seat. Okay, so you game, yeah, okay,
all right, cool. So the first one is this, I'll
let you pick one.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
The first one is you can pick between a spiritual
soundtrack or a spiritual bookshelf. So spiritual soundtrack would be,
you know, a song or a piece of music that
has you know, special significance to you and maybe why.
Or a spiritual bookshelf so you know, maybe there's a
book or scripture or spiritual text that has had a
profound impact on your journey.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So spiritual soundtrack or spiritual bookshelf.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
I mean I have to obviously shameless plug Lemons on Friday.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Okay, there you go, please please, I have to, but
I'll do.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
The soundtrack there.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
I was thinking about this and I actually saved a
playlist from the first couple of months after it been
passed and listened to it sometimes. And there's a song
by Mercy me called the Hurt and the Healer, and
that was my anthem for sure for a long time.
It's a beautiful, beautiful song, and it's the chorus is
I'm alive even though a part of me has died.
(29:59):
You take my heart, breathe it back to life. I'll
fall into your arms open wide when the hurt and
the healer collide. So it's like basically that wow, sacred,
really sucky, but sacred place where your hurt and God
the healer collide and he restores and redeemed and brings
you back to life, and there's just no greater again
(30:22):
intimacy or connection or depth with God. I hate that
that's what happens, but it really is like any other relationship,
like when you go through the fire with a person
and you survive, like your connection and your trust and
your intimacy is so much richer, and like that's true
with God.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And of
course plug in your book as well. Yeah, we got
we got both, they got the soundtrack and the bookshelf.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Awesome.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
This next question in our hot seat, I call it
failures redeemed and obviously a part of it you've already shared,
but maybe there's something else that comes to mind too,
but like share about a time when your faith was tested,
or when you found yourself in a situation that felt
like a failure or a setback or a regression, but
God used that and redeemed it and turned it into
a massive blessing or lesson.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
Yeah, I mean I mentioned closing my business at the beginning,
which really felt like a huge failure, even though I
felt God being like, yeah, this is the right move.
But I look back in the number of times that
I just was almost tearfully thankful that that happened, because
if anybody's in like the hospitality industry, you know, and
(31:29):
it was new, and it was my business like I was,
you know, twelve to fifteen hours a day, and that's
what you do, that's what you put into it.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
And I knew in my heart if I had not
had those.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Two months or two and a half months of that
summer where I was just with him, we traveled with
both our families, like got a puppy, like we did
the whole thing, And if I hadn't had that, I
knew I would be living with a lot of regret.
And so I think in that failure quote unquote, which
it was kind of a financial failure. God gave me
that summer, which I think in turn spared me from
(32:01):
a lot of regret.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Wow, And I'm so thankful for that.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
And I think if you want to double down on
a spiritual level, there are well one time specifically, but
a couple of times, you know, I talked about not
always human.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Being hard well or grieving well.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
And there were a handful of times where I really
went to the wrong place and the wrong person to
try to just I think, feel safety and love and
like we all do. And and I remember a specific
moment just feeling one morning so ashamed, you know, of
the way that I had tried to kind of comfort
(32:38):
myself and like going to knowing as a crit like
knowing that what you do is you confess to the
Lord and like, dude, your covert, like you're forgiven, there's
nothing but just feeling so much shame that I literally
like physically had my head down and like my shoulders hunched,
as if there was a physical person that I was
confessing to.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Couldn't even like pray about it.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
And it was again that's a like kind of in
my head voice, like the job story, and it was
it was Jesus being like, don't hang your head, this
is what I died for.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Wow, And like I mean just I've chills again saying it.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
It's like obviously, like that's the gospel, that's what I've said,
I've believed since I was twelve years old. But to
be in that failure, that like moral failure, emotional hangover failure,
and to just hear again like from God like don't
not only are you forgiven, but like don't hang your head,
like look at my face, like run in my arms,
(33:33):
like this is what I died for is And that's
and then so I carry that with me like any
any time that I feel shame, it's like I re
experience that moment and it's like I'm not just tolerating you,
like I came so that you never have.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
To feel this way again. Yeah, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
It's like and this is why we need him, Yeah,
this is why we can't do it on our own.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, because we would hang our head and slump our
shoulders and carry that around in a rabbit hole for days, weeks, months,
who knows the whole lives.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, And that grace is so much bigger in the
failure moment.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Absolutely, and it's that repetitive reward so to speak from
that moment that you and you got the lesson. Yeah,
oh well, thank you so much for sharing that. Thank
you for sharing everything, Thank you for having grateful Yes,
where can people find you and follow you?
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:15):
So, I'm just Mattie Jackson on Instagram Mattie Jackson dot net.
I have like my book and the podcast link. My
podcast is called enjoy Life. It's I n joy Life
and that's basically arian.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, thank you so much for being here, and this
is us signing out for now.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Ay, thanks bye.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
We'll be back with more What's God Got to Do
with It?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
But in the meantime, I would definitely love to hear
from you, So just tell me where you are in
your story or maybe what questions you have, like where
do you feel you need clarity or support or wisdom
in your own journey. I definitely want to hear from you,
So head on over to What's God Got to Do
with It dot com and scroll down to the form
(34:59):
to share your your thoughts, your questions, your feedback and
you can do that instantly. So, What's God Got to
Do with It dot com. You'll find all the ways
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(35:19):
episodes drop every single Tuesday, and while you're there, be sure.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
To rate and review to show your support. It really
means so much.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
What's God Got to Do With It is an iHeartRadio
podcast on the Amy Brown Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
It's written and hosted by
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Me Leanne Ellington, executive produced by Elizabeth Fozzio, post production
and editing by Houston Tilley, and original music written by
Cheryl Stark and produced by Adam Stark
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
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