October 20, 2025 • 43 mins
“If You Don’t Like This I Will Die” by Lee Tilghman is a raw, eye-opening look into the dark side of online validation and self-image. Once known for her perfectly curated wellness persona, Lee found herself consumed by her social media presence—obsessing over how she looked, what she posted, and how others perceived her, all while her mental and emotional health were quietly falling apart. In this powerful memoir, she pulls back the curtain on the burnout, anxiety, and identity crisis that came with chasing digital perfection, and shares how stepping away from the noise allowed her to rebuild her health, reconnect with herself, and create a grounded, authentic relationship with social media.
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Caryl Lone. She's a queen of talking and song.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
You know she's getting really not.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Afraid to feel the episode and so just.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Let it flow.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
No one can do we quite like Cary Leone. It
sounding carelne.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Well, I'm so excited to be here, bright and early
with Lee Tillman.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
You are an influencer. You are.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
You have left influencing now you've come back in a
healthier space. But you wrote a book. If you don't
like this, I will die about.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The life an influencer.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And I read this book and I have to say
I feel a lot of this because I feel the
pressure of social media, but I.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Have it's so much anxiety reading this book, Lee.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I mean the thought processing that you have to go
through when you are a full time influencer. Literally, it's
like you're documenting your life and it feels like, yes,
you're living it, but you're living it to present it,
and then you can't be fully honest and then everything
(01:23):
is just such a mind game and it's exhausting and
it's overwhelming and it creates anxiety. And I feel like
you did such an incredible job of sharing your story
in a book.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Thank you? I am really good today and all days.
This writing this book was very healing, and I'm actually
grateful for the experience for the lessons because it's the
first influencer memoir of its kind. No one had ever
(02:01):
talked about what it's like to be someone online in
this capacity.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And I love how you talked about how it started
at the Aim days, the aim the instant Messenger days,
because I remember that too, when it was like it
was so exciting to be able to.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Log on and go talk to people online.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
And I just like you put in a perspective when
you talked about this book, how literally I guess like
our generation, even though I thought we had kind of
skipped being plagued by social media as a child, as children,
but we did start with social media when we were young,
because you started at like twelve.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Right, yeah, yeah, and I yeah, I mean, I guess
kind of like we did. That was an aim wasn't
necessarily social media, but it was our main way of
communicating with people, and I just loved it. And then
as I write about my book, I got really into blogging.
I just always very I always just took to social
media pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, okay, so in the beginning of this book.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I kind of want to go through the parts of
this book because you talk about your childhood, and I
feel like your childhood was you felt. In my understanding
of this book, it feels like you didn't feel completely
understood by your family. But I feel like that's normal
for kids, because you had a lot of friction with
your parents, and how did you get to the place
(03:23):
where you were okay to write about that, because I
feel like later in the book you have a very
it seems like you have a very healed relationship with
them and very close relationship, but like you wrote about
some serious parts where your sister had a birthday and
there was a big incident and you ended up like
calling the police and like your parents were like grabbing
your arms and the police came over, and it was
(03:44):
just like very intense.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Like you had some intense moments.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And then you also had some intensity with the aim
situation at a young age. How you get sexualized on
these outlets and you ended up having a situation with
an older guy who kind of like completely took advantage
of you. And I don't know if you knew that
at that time, but you share all of that in
the beginning of those books. I kind of want to
go back to that part of your life and how
(04:07):
did that shape you?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
And just because that was.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Your beginning adolescence, like entering into kind of like understanding
the bigger picture of life, then there's a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, So how did I get to I'll try to
answer your first question, how do I get how did
I get to a place of healing? Well? I did
a lot of therapy and healing and inner work and
a lot of mending with my family. And I think
that in our culture we're way too quick to cut
(04:42):
people out and to just, you know, to just kind
of say, oh my gosh, I had, you know, just
this experience and it was bad, so it must have
been all bad. It wasn't all bad. I think that
what I wrote about is what a lot of people
will experience. A lot of people have said, oh I
had that similar experience too. It's it's much more gray
(05:04):
than so black and white. And also realizing that a
lot of family, a lot of families is there's good
and there's bad. It's not all good or all bad.
And that was the exact case in my family. I
know that my family loves me dearly and also use
(05:24):
the tools that they had at the time. That was
how they were treated as kids as well, and that
was just kind of what people did.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Not as much like deep diving into your emotions or
understanding the root cause. Is more just like addressing the
situation and the kind of putting some punishment on top
of it.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
I'm like, mm hmmm, yeah. And now it feels like
everybody's doing gentle parenting in twenty twenty five, so, you know,
as we could just see kind of like the way
that parenting shifts and changes.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Dental parenting was not a thing when we were growing.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Up now exactly, and now everyone's like anti cheche parenting again.
So I don't I think that we're all just always
it seems. I don't have told her, but it seems
like really hard to be a parent. It's something I
hope to be one day, but it's just you can't
be perfect all the time. And that's something that I
realize now. And I have both compassion for my younger
(06:23):
self and for my family, and forgiveness is so important.
So that's number one. And then.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
What was the second part of your How did j'all
get to the point of healing though, and how did
they take it when you wrote about them, because there
was that one scene at your sister's sixteenth birthday where
she got like a Tiffany's bracelet and a car keys
and you just I feel like in that moment, I
could feel your energy where you just felt like you
weren't seen and you weren't heard in your family and
it felt like your sister. But this is you know,
(06:53):
growing up as siblings too. There's always going to be
it never is equal, but then like one person gets
one thing, another person gets another. But you can't always
see that as a child. But I just felt like
that was a pivotal moment for you. And how did
your parents handle that part of the book, because you
kind of showcased how y'all's dynamic went down, because that
(07:15):
was that's kind of a you're kind of vulnerable and
you're you're kind of vulnerable with your family's experience as well.
So how did that all go down for your family
to like know that you're going to share about that
and then how has it been since you've shared?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Well, So it was always my intention to write with honesty.
I believe that any good memoir if it brushes past
the surface or tries to scrape things under the rug.
Writing a book is a huge, arduous, expensive process. So
if you're not going to be honest about your experience,
then why even bother. So that was always going to
be my experience. My family and I are in a
(07:49):
really good place now. They've been very supportive of me
and my many different aspects of my career and shifts
and changes, and we've just we've healed and are continuing
to you know, there's just it's a relationship is a living,
breathing thing. But we've just had a lot of open
(08:11):
discussions in our family and we're just close. And it
was I just I'm so I think like a writing
about a writing a book could have never like broken
the family. I think that that's really important to have
a I'm so grateful to have a family that is
(08:33):
strong enough to withhold that. And we've had some conversations
and it hasn't always been easy, but how else are
you supposed to move on as a family.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
You know, there was one part in your book though
that like crushed me, and it was your dad said,
what did he say?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Oh? Man?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Then I where is this in the book? He said
something like, my daughter is a luck when he caught you.
And this is what the downfall of social media though,
because like when you put this earth aim at the time,
when you put the whole story in context, like you're
not actually a slut. You were completely put in the
(09:16):
situation that so many young girls are put in where
they are taken advantage of and they don't know how
to handle a situation when this older hot guy comes
over to your house and you think he wants to
and you're communicating through aim and no one's at home,
but you don't really know what his intentions are because
at that age you have no idea.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I mean, I didn't know anything about sex when I
was twelve. Were you twelve at that point?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
No? I was fifteen, okay, fifteen, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Still it's like, man, the downfalls of social media or
connection through the internet, and then you go on to
talk about this in your later life, how like it
is sexual driven a lot of it, especially for women,
and it starts at such a young age. And just
like the misunderstanding of girls getting in situations they really
don't know they're getting in. I feel like seeing that
(10:04):
happen to you and then feeling misunderstood from your family,
did that kind of send you down the road of
wanting to be so accepted on social media? Because I
feel like that what this book is is kind of
explaining like how you really wanted and so many people
and influencers really want to be seen and valued through
(10:24):
the internet and through our social media. Did that kind
of start that process when you felt a little misunderstood
and then you kind of got taken advantage of.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I think that the need to be validated online is
a very wide one that many people feel, and it's
certainly a theme of my book. And I'm not quite
sure when it started. It's kind of up to the
reader to put those keys together, but I think it
had to do with the way that I perceived myself
(10:54):
and the way that I felt perceived by others, and
the messages that I was getting as a young girl.
We get so many messages as a young girl, you know,
it's important to be liked, to be likable. I grew
up with like Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton and Nicole
Richie and the tabloids. Possibly is they were kind of
(11:15):
like the crazy party girls, and then they were like
the Good Girls and then the Good Girls gone bad
like Britney Spears, and so just watching kind of all
you had to do to get those messages is just
be like kind of clued into pop culture and you're
gonna get those messages. So I thought the title was
pretty kitchy because it's like, if you don't like this,
if you don't like me, and that's just a common
(11:37):
such a common thing for women. We're told to be
likable and palatable, and this book was a little bit
of a pulling back the curtain on that.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
So then you get into your adulthood and you really
start finding Tell me about the journey to the wellness space,
because I feel like you kind of like got there
and around about way because it started with eating disorders, right,
and then yeah, ended up going to a rehab or
(12:07):
a place to help you with that. But then you
you kind of fell into this wellness space. But then
it felt like almost that was a whole beast of
itself to tackle because now you're trying to present as
fully well, but there's also this underlying life going on
that you're not sharing too. And that's I feel like
the dilemma of being an influencer can you kind of
talk about that part of your life? And is that
when you moved to LA, you're moving from New York
(12:30):
to LA.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah. I think that having an eating disorder as a
child forced me to live a life where I'm always
going to be connected to my body or disconnected from
my body. And getting treatment forced me to reconnect to
(12:53):
my body, which was great, but it forced me. When
most people can just kind of a lot of people
can just skirt through life and not think about those things.
I was forced to think about them and to how
to take care of about it, how to eat, how
to move, how to be balanced, and actually those I
believe those are really valuable lessons that a lot of
(13:17):
us could stand to learn. But there's it could be
a slippery slope into extremism of Okay, you know, I
want to watch what I eat, or I only want
to eat organic, or I only want to eat gluten free.
And that's kind of what happened, like where pretty soon
I got into wellness and I started posting about it online.
(13:38):
And the more I posted about it, the more I
learned about different wellness things, and pretty soon I was
like gluten free, dairy free, soy free, sugar free. You
know all these.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
How do you even keep up with it?
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Oh? I loved it. I was my it was my identity.
Like I loved it, like I I loved having this crazy,
weird diet. I don't know, it was like I mean,
I think that a lot of people. Really it becomes
your identity the healing.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Did you feel like that's who you were, like because
you could like lock into it.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, I have such crazy exactly, like this is easy,
Like I'm the girl at the party who doesn't have
the gluten I mean, and I was living in La
so like everybody was gluten free.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
But did it kind of makes you feel like you've
found your place, like this is who I am.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, I found a belonging. I found a community of
people on Instagram who I posted also who like who
were my followers who also were on this journey of
figuring out the best diet for their bodies. It was
self experimentation and that kind of thing. And I think
(14:52):
it started off very well meaning and it ended well meaning.
But I think that I realized that while doing it,
I had lost my way. And it's it's hard to say,
you know. I think my book can be used for studies,
because it's like, was I more extreme? Was I more
extreme because of social media? Or was it was the wellness?
(15:14):
You know? Was it what came first? The wellness or
the social media? But eventually, as you know, I step
back and find healing offline.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay, So you meet Everest? Are you still with Everest?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
No?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Okay? Because he's a pivotal player in your life and
you met him online.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Talk to me about how love entered your life and
how that started to change things and you went through
other big life experiences with lots of stuff with Everest.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Evert ooh, Evert.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
That's okay. It's it's Scotland, right, Sweden?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Oh okay, close, not really, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, he was a pivotal a very important relationship to
disclose in the book because he was the person that
I was with while influencing.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, and you met that online.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah. I think that it's important for people to read
about what it's like to date an influencer, and what
it's like as an influencer to date someone h and
the imbalance that comes from meeting somebody who started off
as a fan. You know, that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah, it is because he was a fan, and he
had been married. He and his ex wife followed your
blog and was is that Did that feel exciting?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Was that overwhelming that he was a fan? Like how
how does how do you?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
How do you get into a relationship with someone and
know they're not a total creep when they're your fan?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I mean, there's a level of trust there. But I
think ultimately it brought an imbalance of power and balance
because at first I felt like he was just a fan,
and then you know, it's just there was just that
weird like he had known me as leaf from America
before I knew him, and came to the relationship with
(17:14):
all these preconceived notions of how our life would be
or whatever. So it was a really interesting experience.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
And and dating overseas too.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yes, and living overseas, and I think that as Americans
we can totally romanticize, like, oh my god, I want
to live in Europe and listen, it's not easy. There's
a lot of reasons. There's a lot of reasons why
people say that and never go it's pretty good here
in America. I remember going over seas and trying a
(17:50):
macha and it was like a yellow They didn't really
they gave me like turmeric. They didn't even have Matcha yet,
and we're just lucky here. You know. Their health food
store was an aisle, not a store. And yeah, I
was like, oh, okay, Like maybe I was romanticizing this
a little bit. It's hard, It's really really hard. And
when you realize that, or I realized that in Sweden,
(18:12):
I'd always be a foreigner and I had to really realize, like,
I'm not okay with that. And Ebert obviously had to
stay there for his kids, and that plus just other
mismatches in our relationship ultimately ended up splitting us up.
But I learned a lot in that relationship, for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
What did you take away from that relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
That first of all, I wasn't ready. Second of all,
how I wanted to be treated. A third that if
if I want to make a relationship work, I have
to prioritize it. And I also wanted somebody that I
(19:03):
could fully trust, and I couldn't fully trust that person.
So it gave me. It gave me the feeling the
realizing how important trust is.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
When you talk about the power and balances, what is
the power and balance of someone who is a well
known influencer dating someone who is not an influencer.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
How does that shake out?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Well, I think that, like, like I'm engaged right now
to a non influencer, and I think that there's no
we're very equal in our power in that way. I
just meant before, when you're dating a fan, that's a
power imbalance. Like he wasn't just a regular he was
he was a fan like you know, so he had
seen my content for years and he came to the
(19:45):
table thinking he knew who I was. And and I
feel like, no matter what, like I was still just
like me from America to him. Whereas when you meet
somebody on the same equal playing field of like they
don't really necessarily know all of the things about you
before you go on first date. I think that's more
of a more equal playing field. And that's how it
(20:07):
is online now. Like that's if you're online dating and
you google someone and they have a public profile, like
you can read a lot about them, and that's just
how it is. But I think it's really really important
for all those single people listening to if you are
looking someone up there you're about to go on a date,
(20:28):
you can read about it, but don't go too deep,
just still. I think it's really important to like be
open and trying to come up with all these preconceived
notions of who somebody is that you just see online,
because that's just one side of someone.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
So you say, you kind of your description of this
book says, Hey, guys, my name is Lee Tillman. This
is my memoir. It's about my time as a professional influencer.
At one point, I had nearly four thousand and four
hundred thousand Instagram followers and was making three hundred thousand
dollars a year.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Through brand Dell's, which is amazing.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
But then I had a nervous breakdown from the stress
and toxicity of my social media use. I developed a
severe fixation on healthy eating, logged off winter treatment, and
got free. This book is about how influencing at its
worst can consume you and what it takes to come
back from that.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I hope a lot of young people will take inspiration
and motivation from my story.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
So kind of can you tell me about the point
when you had your nervous breakdown, like how that happened
and is it hard to share that?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Was it hard to be so vulnerable in this book?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
No? I think that the no I was well, for sure,
I wrote I wrote the book pretending that nobody was
ever going to read it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That's my advice, because then you could really share everything.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, but then you have people like
me come and.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Ask you about all of your most personal intimate moments.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, what's it called the breakdown? Well, I think that
it's really important to that part of my life was
what led me here. Like that's how I view my
life as like all of our lives is like every step,
(22:16):
even though as difficult or as painful as it is,
is always guiding us to the next step. So that
was when I when I looked around and my apartment flooded,
and I realized, like all I wanted to take with
me was my dog and my passport. It was a
big wake up call because before that day, influencing meant
everything to me. And then all of a sudden, I
(22:37):
was like, you know what, Like this is actually like
this is not what I thought it was going to be.
I'm not in a good place. My mental health comes first,
and I was ready to walk away. And I was
so ready to walk away. It kind of what's the
right word, It surprised me. Because I thought, oh, I'm
(22:58):
never going to walk away from this, but I was
really ready to.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Because your fans, your followers kind of turned on you.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It's not like mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And had that ever happened before?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
No, not to that extent.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
And they turned on.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
You because you're starting a You're going to do a workshop,
and they thought you were overcharging?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Is that what it was?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
So so many influencers charge for their services, and maybe
that was like was that more in the beginning?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Because how did that happen? You were setting up a workshop.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
I feel like you had done one before, and then
all of a sudden people were calling you racist. They
were calling you all sorts of names just for starting
a workshop.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
How did how did that happen?
Speaker 1 (23:38):
What was I mean you'd have to I mean you'd
have to. I mean they would say like, oh it
was she was overcharging, she was price prohibitive, she was
being greedy. But I think that I was just a
target of their anger.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I mean, had your following been supportive before that point?
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Mostly? Yeah? I really like fans are just like yeah,
like fans are just like some of them are like
really crazy and feel parasocial, feel owed like you owe
them something. All my content was free, and they felt
like I owed them everything. It was a huge wake
up call and I realized that eventually every kind of
(24:19):
big social media persona gets canceled or has some sort
of drama. I think it's a brighter passage at this point,
but at the moment it was very painful. But it
really taught me a lot, and it really made me
realize like, these female supportive spaces are not always what
they seem. And yeah, it was so entitled. It was
(24:47):
so entitled. It was wild. But it made me really
want to take a step away and be like, oh
my god, these people are so unhealthy. I this is unhealthy.
Maybe this Strava is unhealthy. Maybe my community is unhealthy.
I need to take a step back.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Well.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
And it's probably heartbreaking at the same time, because you've
been so focused on providing content, like you're so regimented
on posting and getting your stories up and starting your
daily routine and sharing your whole life, and everyone who's
following you is responding well to it, and then just
to have everyone, like so many people turn that has
(25:26):
to feel like being it's like such a backstab from
people you've been like really waking up to serve this
community with your life, and now in one.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Second they turn on you. I mean that has to
feel heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah, it was like it really Yeah, you've been like
showing up for them, like giving your life to them.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Right now it's like, really, okay, you can go that fast, right?
What did that teach you about this?
Speaker 3 (25:56):
What did that teach you about how you had been
showing up for your social media life versus your real life.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Oh? It taught me to always put real life before
social media. It taught me to invest less emotional energy
in the feelings of my followers, and it taught me
to be a better business woman and also support for
people who would face the same kind of backlash for
some silly, just thing that they did. It taught me
(26:26):
a lot about how women hold other women to impossible standards.
It taught me how people find joy and watching the
downfall of others. It taught me about online hate groups.
It taught me about mob mentality, taught me about cancel culture,
It taught me about feminism. It was just it changed
(26:47):
me fundamentally, and it was actually, I say, I always say,
it was like the best thing that ever happened to
me because I think a lot of people are fearful
of canceled, of cancel culture, and once it happens to you,
you realize that that fear is gone.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
So you kind of were canceled.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Well, it's up for people some people, Yeah, I mean
attempted cancelation. I mean what even is canceled?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Yeah, so they're gonna people learn to cancel you over
a workshop that you put up. Yeah, okay, So what
does that feel like when you're you're following? You said
it taught you so much, But what does that teach
you about cancel culture? Because to be in the eye
of wanting to be canceled by these people who had
been lifting you up, what did you learn about cancel culture.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
That? Like, I think a lot of people feel and
be when they watch someone rise and gain power and
they're just waiting for you to trip up, and they
actually don't even know what they're mad about. They'll just
take a go for the for the lowest step as
soon as and as soon as other people are doing
it too, they're like, okay, cool, let's go in together.
(28:02):
It's really frightening and low like low energy and too
easy for people to do and it makes them feel
really good, like they feel morally superior because they're like, well,
I would never post a workshop of that cost, and
it's like, well, nobody would buy your tickets, like mine
(28:22):
sold out, Like that's why I charge what I charge.
You could never sell out a workshop, like sorry, just
how it is.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
And so many influencers charged so much for workshops?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Was this just like one of the earlier ones where
people were just because I feel like now this is
very common for influencers to start a workshop, to start
a retreat, to charge tons of money.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And it's like you have to ask my audience.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
But it's like if you don't want to do it,
why don't they just not buy the ticket?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Who cares? Like you know, why does someone have to
make it a thing?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
It sounds like you have reason and rationale, but there
is none.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Yeah, so what did you do after that happened? So
that's when you decided You're kind of like having a
little bit of a nervous breakdown. You're realizing that this
(29:19):
is not everything that you thought it was. What did
you do in that moment when you took a step back?
How did you take a step back? And like, what
was that season of your life.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Like, oh, it was so good. I realized, like my
first morning not being on social media, I made a
match just for myself without posting about it, and I
was like, oh, this is really good. I really really
like this. Like I was, I wasn't sure how it
would be to be off social media, but I.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Was like, I like this because before you were making
it like your macha morning, It's like you were just
starting your day with the Internet.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
It's like here we go.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Here's the coffee, and then you'd walk them through your
whole day like you were always on it. Right, Okay,
so now you're off it, just do it for you
because you like matcha Yeah that's a new concept.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah yep.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
And so then what happened with your mental space after that?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I mean, I just I to say that I healed
is not even fully describing it. I just like, I mean,
I just came back to myself. I figured out who
I was without social media. I figured out who I
was without leaf from America, without my audience, and I
found that digital I found that identity outside of the
(30:36):
digital sphere. And I think that's really important and that's
why I was able to work on this book, What
did you do.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
To find that for someone who maybe is in your spot?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Because I feel like, especially even with this younger generation,
they have grown up on Instagram, they're on TikTok, they're
on YouTube. Like it's not even like a question. They
don't even know there's another option. They're just born with
a phone in their head and on social media. Like
this next generation. It kind of freaks me out because
they don't even know the difference. What would you tell
(31:07):
someone who is feeling consumed and at a breaking point,
who wants to detalk and get back to the core
of who they are? What did you do in that time? Like,
how did you get back to you? What were some
of the things you did?
Speaker 1 (31:22):
I found friends who were not in the industry, who
were private citizens. That's the difference I call between like
someone who might be like you, you're a non privatistem
because you have a podcast. Me, I'm not privatitisans because
I have a book. But then there's just people who
are private citizens who don't have They may have social media,
but they just like it's private, you know, they don't
(31:43):
really engage with that kind of stuff. So find them
because they're they're great people to root down in reality
of the real like go outside, talk to your neighbors,
talk to if you're dealing with mental health problems, to
a professional or someone you trust, and get support in
(32:04):
that way and explore yourself. Like I started taking improv classes,
I started going to stand up comedy shows. I just
figured out what I wanted to do. I just like
lived my life based off of what I wanted versus
what what everybody else was doing on social media. It
was really great.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Did you worry about income because you were fully making
your income on social media?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Right?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah? I went back to work.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I just started that to work.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, I went back to a nine to five.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
And how was that?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It was interesting? It was really interesting going off of
trying to kind of turn my resume into, you know,
a corporate thing and try to change my influencing experience
into a corporate into corporate friendly. But it was very enlightening.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Where did like, what feel do you work in? Where
do you go?
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Where is your Oh I'm not doing it anymore?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
What were you working in?
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I was working in social media? So I stayed in
that industry because it's kind of it was like an
obvious kind of path and I helped brands do their
social media.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Okay, that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Well is going to use your skills and turn it
into something It's very useful. Yeah, So how did you
decide that you're ready to resurface on social media because
now you're back?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
How how how do you? How do you have boundaries
with it now?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I decided it was time to resurface because I had
taken so much time off that I was full of
ideas and inspiration and found the joy and in creating again,
which is what I think I'm really good at. And
then how do I how do I handle boundaries? Now?
I just have a pretty good inner like clock and
like an inner kind of alarm system where if I'm
on a too much, I just don't feel good and
(33:57):
I feel really justs regulated and really monkey brain and
very distracted and emotional. And so I will just like
put my phone down or turn it on, do not disturb,
or just not go on the app for a few
days and go outside, talk to friends, get lunch with someone,
call my aunt, call my grandmother, like just reconnect. And
(34:18):
I have those practices that help me do that.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
So do you feel pressure to post now or do
you just post because you want to share what you know.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I just I just post what I want to post.
I don't really feel pressure to anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Isn't it wild, though, that this is a whole lifestyle
and a whole conversation and a point where you wrote
a book about it because I feel this, and I like, honestly,
a few years ago, I'm forty two now, and when
I was thirty eight years old, I had my no
I was thirty six, I had my daughter, and I
realized like I had an unhealthy relationship just with myself
and with social media, and I kind of quit posting
(34:52):
personal things because it made me feel very violated that like,
people that I don't know are just watching my life
and watching my daughter, and just like, wh.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
We're just watching people.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And it's not that you can't learn wonderful things and
have incredible shared knowledge through these resources, but like it
really it didn't toll on my mental health, and I
ended up hiring like a life coach, and I scaled
back on social media extremely and I just kind of
like try. I mean, I still did my podcast, but
(35:24):
besides that, just sort of stopped sharing my personal life
and it felt very hard to unplug from that, it
felt very difficult that I to take that turn where
I don't have to just share everything, because I remember
like I would like just be traveling and going to
see my family or sister or whatever, and I just
(35:44):
would always have to post little snippets of everything I'm doing.
And finally I got to the point where I'm like, why,
why Why am I sharing my whole life for people
that I don't know, And you're always having to think
about a post. You're always having to think about what's
going to get the most in engagement, and it's literally
like you can't just be a human anymore. You have
(36:04):
to have this. It's almost like your sixth sense has
to be social media, Like it's this part of you
that's almost required. Like you said, you're either a private
citizen or if you're not, you feel like you have
to share on social media and to find a balance.
I feel like so many of us struggle with, Yes,
you wrote this book about it, and you've done an
incredible soul journey, but like this is a very common
(36:26):
feeling that a lot of us are going through right now.
I'm just like feeling like we don't want to share
a whole life and we don't want to have to live.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Well, you don't have to, that's the thing, like, like
you really don't. There's there's a lot of jobs outside
of social media, like like I did social media for
a job after but then I actually realized I was like, okay,
I really need a break break from social media fully,
so I became I worked at a local bookstore during
(36:54):
the holidays and helped sell books, Like I worked as
a caterer at a restaurant, like like, there's other ways
to I totally understand what you mean. And the choice
that we have is either to do it or not
to do it, and people find joy in both.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
To not to just as hard though, because everyone's doing.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
It, I disagree. I mean, I feel like I know
so many people who are not doing it. But maybe
that's because I just wrote a book and those people
are talking to me. But there's a lot of people
who are just like not on social media, at least
here up here in New York. It feels like everyone is,
but they're not. There's a whole world out there, and
(37:38):
it takes a couple of years to realize like oh yeah,
like it's okay, but you know, I understand what you're saying.
It can be isolating, Like if you work in media
and you're not on social media, you are going to
be It's kind of like working in news and not
reading the news, like you're expected to know what's going on,
and that world loves fast and there's always the next trend,
the next real the next pop cull a moment. But
(38:04):
there's other industries that don't require that. But it's becoming
more and more common to be on social media, but
I think that you can still find people who are
not on it.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
So why did you want to write this book?
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Well, I woke up one day working in one of
my non social media jobs and I was like, this
is a This needs to become a book because I've
always turned to books and memoir to tell me how
to be and tell me tell me like like reading
other people a good memoir, even if you haven't been
to the experience give makes you feel like, oh, I
(38:41):
felt that I relate to that feeling. And I was
really shocked when I walked away from Influencing that nobody
had written a book like this before. So I was like,
I'm going to write this book. I'm going to write
this book. This is going to be. I'm going to
do it, so I don't care if no one reads it.
So I just like set out to write this book,
and here we are.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
What do you want people to get when they read this?
How do you want them to walk away?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
I want them to feel less alone. I want them
to relate to the feelings of social media, whether or
not they post, or they're an influencer or an ex influencer,
or just maybe their child wants to become an influencer.
I want them to feel less alone and also have
an inside feeling of what the job is really Like.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
What do you have to say about influencing?
Speaker 3 (39:24):
If someone wants to get into influencing, what are your
tips and advice about that?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, that's a really good question. Read the book first,
like I mean, like listen, Like this was my experience.
The way that I was doing it wasn't good. I'm
obviously back on social media now and I'm doing it
doing it much differently. So only the person can be
the barometer for how healthy or unhealthy it is. But
I think that it's important to just stay aware and
(39:52):
go slowly and play the long game.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Yeah, do you have a different do you have like
a way that you go about it now that's different.
How would you say you're doing it differently now versus then?
Because now you're back, you've gone through all this healing.
What would you say is the difference of your social
media use now versus then?
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Well, back then, I was willing to do whatever it
took to beat the algorithm and stay on top of
people's feeds and you know, get the most likes. And
I don't worry about that anymore. I just post what
I want to post, because that kind of outlook of
always trying to beat the last post is exhausting. And
what I've realized actually from being in this industry for
(40:36):
sixteen years, is that the people who come out on
top are actually the ones who just stay consistent and
not burn out. So that's important to realize that is
actually consistency is more important than metrics and whatever your
consistency is. So if that's posting once a month, then
do that. If that's posting once every three months, I
know a girl on substacker posts like four times a year,
(40:58):
and that works for her. She does other things, obviously,
but that's the consistency that works for her. I know
people who post every day, so it just really depends
on what you can do.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Do you How do you feel about social media in general?
Speaker 1 (41:12):
I think that it's a tool that we need to
be discerning of. So if it's again making us feel
bad about ourselves, then we need to reevaluate what kind
of content we're taking in or take a break from
it altogether. But I do think that it can be
a neutral thing.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I think it's awesome. I think it's great you wrote
this book.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I think it's great you're sharing the story of influencing and.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
All the sides to it. It's definitely a big situation.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
That we're all learning how to navigate in our society
these days, because I feel like now we're kind of
starting to see the effects of it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
It kind of came out.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
I remember when it came out, like in two thousand
and seven, was when I got my Instagram.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Page and did not know what it was.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
And now we're kind of seeing how it's played out
over the years, all the different ways it can play out,
how can affect mental health. And I just think it's
great that you're writing this inside perspective and thank.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
You for sharing. Lee.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
I always wrap up with lead your Light, and it's
just a super open ended question.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
What do you want people to know?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Drop some inspiration, lead your light, do what you want
to do, no matter what you worry. People might say,
it's your life and it's really important to just follow
your bliss and not worry about what other people are
going to think.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Love it? Okay, So where can everyone keep up with you?
Find the book all the things?
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yeah? So my book is called If you don't like this,
I Will Die. My name is Lee Tilman, my instagram
is at Lee from America, and my substack is called
hand wash Only.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Hey well, Lee, thank you so much for sharing your
journey and sharing the inside of social media and just
good luck with everything.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
This is awesome. Is this officially out?
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yep, officially out?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (43:01):
If you're looking for the insider to what it is
like to be a professional influencer, this is awesome.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Thank you so much, Lee, I appreciate your time.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Thanks Caroline, Bye bye
Caryl Lone. She's a queen of talking and song.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
You know she's getting really not.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Afraid to feel the episode and so just.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Let it flow.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
No one can do we quite like Cary Leone. It
sounding carelne.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Well, I'm so excited to be here, bright and early
with Lee Tillman.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
You are an influencer. You are.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
You have left influencing now you've come back in a
healthier space. But you wrote a book. If you don't
like this, I will die about.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The life an influencer.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And I read this book and I have to say
I feel a lot of this because I feel the
pressure of social media, but I.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Have it's so much anxiety reading this book, Lee.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I mean the thought processing that you have to go
through when you are a full time influencer. Literally, it's
like you're documenting your life and it feels like, yes,
you're living it, but you're living it to present it,
and then you can't be fully honest and then everything
(01:23):
is just such a mind game and it's exhausting and
it's overwhelming and it creates anxiety. And I feel like
you did such an incredible job of sharing your story
in a book.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Thank you? I am really good today and all days.
This writing this book was very healing, and I'm actually
grateful for the experience for the lessons because it's the
first influencer memoir of its kind. No one had ever
(02:01):
talked about what it's like to be someone online in
this capacity.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And I love how you talked about how it started
at the Aim days, the aim the instant Messenger days,
because I remember that too, when it was like it
was so exciting to be able to.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Log on and go talk to people online.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
And I just like you put in a perspective when
you talked about this book, how literally I guess like
our generation, even though I thought we had kind of
skipped being plagued by social media as a child, as children,
but we did start with social media when we were young,
because you started at like twelve.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Right, yeah, yeah, and I yeah, I mean, I guess
kind of like we did. That was an aim wasn't
necessarily social media, but it was our main way of
communicating with people, and I just loved it. And then
as I write about my book, I got really into blogging.
I just always very I always just took to social
media pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, okay, so in the beginning of this book.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I kind of want to go through the parts of
this book because you talk about your childhood, and I
feel like your childhood was you felt. In my understanding
of this book, it feels like you didn't feel completely
understood by your family. But I feel like that's normal
for kids, because you had a lot of friction with
your parents, and how did you get to the place
(03:23):
where you were okay to write about that, because I
feel like later in the book you have a very
it seems like you have a very healed relationship with
them and very close relationship, but like you wrote about
some serious parts where your sister had a birthday and
there was a big incident and you ended up like
calling the police and like your parents were like grabbing
your arms and the police came over, and it was
(03:44):
just like very intense.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Like you had some intense moments.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And then you also had some intensity with the aim
situation at a young age. How you get sexualized on
these outlets and you ended up having a situation with
an older guy who kind of like completely took advantage
of you. And I don't know if you knew that
at that time, but you share all of that in
the beginning of those books. I kind of want to
go back to that part of your life and how
(04:07):
did that shape you?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
And just because that was.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Your beginning adolescence, like entering into kind of like understanding
the bigger picture of life, then there's a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, So how did I get to I'll try to
answer your first question, how do I get how did
I get to a place of healing? Well? I did
a lot of therapy and healing and inner work and
a lot of mending with my family. And I think
that in our culture we're way too quick to cut
(04:42):
people out and to just, you know, to just kind
of say, oh my gosh, I had, you know, just
this experience and it was bad, so it must have
been all bad. It wasn't all bad. I think that
what I wrote about is what a lot of people
will experience. A lot of people have said, oh I
had that similar experience too. It's it's much more gray
(05:04):
than so black and white. And also realizing that a
lot of family, a lot of families is there's good
and there's bad. It's not all good or all bad.
And that was the exact case in my family. I
know that my family loves me dearly and also use
(05:24):
the tools that they had at the time. That was
how they were treated as kids as well, and that
was just kind of what people did.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Not as much like deep diving into your emotions or
understanding the root cause. Is more just like addressing the
situation and the kind of putting some punishment on top
of it.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
I'm like, mm hmmm, yeah. And now it feels like
everybody's doing gentle parenting in twenty twenty five, so, you know,
as we could just see kind of like the way
that parenting shifts and changes.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Dental parenting was not a thing when we were growing.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Up now exactly, and now everyone's like anti cheche parenting again.
So I don't I think that we're all just always
it seems. I don't have told her, but it seems
like really hard to be a parent. It's something I
hope to be one day, but it's just you can't
be perfect all the time. And that's something that I
realize now. And I have both compassion for my younger
(06:23):
self and for my family, and forgiveness is so important.
So that's number one. And then.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
What was the second part of your How did j'all
get to the point of healing though, and how did
they take it when you wrote about them, because there
was that one scene at your sister's sixteenth birthday where
she got like a Tiffany's bracelet and a car keys
and you just I feel like in that moment, I
could feel your energy where you just felt like you
weren't seen and you weren't heard in your family and
it felt like your sister. But this is you know,
(06:53):
growing up as siblings too. There's always going to be
it never is equal, but then like one person gets
one thing, another person gets another. But you can't always
see that as a child. But I just felt like
that was a pivotal moment for you. And how did
your parents handle that part of the book, because you
kind of showcased how y'all's dynamic went down, because that
(07:15):
was that's kind of a you're kind of vulnerable and
you're you're kind of vulnerable with your family's experience as well.
So how did that all go down for your family
to like know that you're going to share about that
and then how has it been since you've shared?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Well, So it was always my intention to write with honesty.
I believe that any good memoir if it brushes past
the surface or tries to scrape things under the rug.
Writing a book is a huge, arduous, expensive process. So
if you're not going to be honest about your experience,
then why even bother. So that was always going to
be my experience. My family and I are in a
(07:49):
really good place now. They've been very supportive of me
and my many different aspects of my career and shifts
and changes, and we've just we've healed and are continuing
to you know, there's just it's a relationship is a living,
breathing thing. But we've just had a lot of open
(08:11):
discussions in our family and we're just close. And it
was I just I'm so I think like a writing
about a writing a book could have never like broken
the family. I think that that's really important to have
a I'm so grateful to have a family that is
(08:33):
strong enough to withhold that. And we've had some conversations
and it hasn't always been easy, but how else are
you supposed to move on as a family.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
You know, there was one part in your book though
that like crushed me, and it was your dad said,
what did he say?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Oh? Man?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Then I where is this in the book? He said
something like, my daughter is a luck when he caught you.
And this is what the downfall of social media though,
because like when you put this earth aim at the time,
when you put the whole story in context, like you're
not actually a slut. You were completely put in the
(09:16):
situation that so many young girls are put in where
they are taken advantage of and they don't know how
to handle a situation when this older hot guy comes
over to your house and you think he wants to
and you're communicating through aim and no one's at home,
but you don't really know what his intentions are because
at that age you have no idea.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I mean, I didn't know anything about sex when I
was twelve. Were you twelve at that point?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
No? I was fifteen, okay, fifteen, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Still it's like, man, the downfalls of social media or
connection through the internet, and then you go on to
talk about this in your later life, how like it
is sexual driven a lot of it, especially for women,
and it starts at such a young age. And just
like the misunderstanding of girls getting in situations they really
don't know they're getting in. I feel like seeing that
(10:04):
happen to you and then feeling misunderstood from your family,
did that kind of send you down the road of
wanting to be so accepted on social media? Because I
feel like that what this book is is kind of
explaining like how you really wanted and so many people
and influencers really want to be seen and valued through
(10:24):
the internet and through our social media. Did that kind
of start that process when you felt a little misunderstood
and then you kind of got taken advantage of.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I think that the need to be validated online is
a very wide one that many people feel, and it's
certainly a theme of my book. And I'm not quite
sure when it started. It's kind of up to the
reader to put those keys together, but I think it
had to do with the way that I perceived myself
(10:54):
and the way that I felt perceived by others, and
the messages that I was getting as a young girl.
We get so many messages as a young girl, you know,
it's important to be liked, to be likable. I grew
up with like Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton and Nicole
Richie and the tabloids. Possibly is they were kind of
(11:15):
like the crazy party girls, and then they were like
the Good Girls and then the Good Girls gone bad
like Britney Spears, and so just watching kind of all
you had to do to get those messages is just
be like kind of clued into pop culture and you're
gonna get those messages. So I thought the title was
pretty kitchy because it's like, if you don't like this,
if you don't like me, and that's just a common
(11:37):
such a common thing for women. We're told to be
likable and palatable, and this book was a little bit
of a pulling back the curtain on that.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
So then you get into your adulthood and you really
start finding Tell me about the journey to the wellness space,
because I feel like you kind of like got there
and around about way because it started with eating disorders, right,
and then yeah, ended up going to a rehab or
(12:07):
a place to help you with that. But then you
you kind of fell into this wellness space. But then
it felt like almost that was a whole beast of
itself to tackle because now you're trying to present as
fully well, but there's also this underlying life going on
that you're not sharing too. And that's I feel like
the dilemma of being an influencer can you kind of
talk about that part of your life? And is that
when you moved to LA, you're moving from New York
(12:30):
to LA.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah. I think that having an eating disorder as a
child forced me to live a life where I'm always
going to be connected to my body or disconnected from
my body. And getting treatment forced me to reconnect to
(12:53):
my body, which was great, but it forced me. When
most people can just kind of a lot of people
can just skirt through life and not think about those things.
I was forced to think about them and to how
to take care of about it, how to eat, how
to move, how to be balanced, and actually those I
believe those are really valuable lessons that a lot of
(13:17):
us could stand to learn. But there's it could be
a slippery slope into extremism of Okay, you know, I
want to watch what I eat, or I only want
to eat organic, or I only want to eat gluten free.
And that's kind of what happened, like where pretty soon
I got into wellness and I started posting about it online.
(13:38):
And the more I posted about it, the more I
learned about different wellness things, and pretty soon I was
like gluten free, dairy free, soy free, sugar free. You
know all these.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
How do you even keep up with it?
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Oh? I loved it. I was my it was my identity.
Like I loved it, like I I loved having this crazy,
weird diet. I don't know, it was like I mean,
I think that a lot of people. Really it becomes
your identity the healing.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Did you feel like that's who you were, like because
you could like lock into it.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, I have such crazy exactly, like this is easy,
Like I'm the girl at the party who doesn't have
the gluten I mean, and I was living in La
so like everybody was gluten free.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
But did it kind of makes you feel like you've
found your place, like this is who I am.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, I found a belonging. I found a community of
people on Instagram who I posted also who like who
were my followers who also were on this journey of
figuring out the best diet for their bodies. It was
self experimentation and that kind of thing. And I think
(14:52):
it started off very well meaning and it ended well meaning.
But I think that I realized that while doing it,
I had lost my way. And it's it's hard to say,
you know. I think my book can be used for studies,
because it's like, was I more extreme? Was I more
extreme because of social media? Or was it was the wellness?
(15:14):
You know? Was it what came first? The wellness or
the social media? But eventually, as you know, I step
back and find healing offline.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay, So you meet Everest? Are you still with Everest?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
No?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Okay? Because he's a pivotal player in your life and
you met him online.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Talk to me about how love entered your life and
how that started to change things and you went through
other big life experiences with lots of stuff with Everest.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Evert ooh, Evert.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
That's okay. It's it's Scotland, right, Sweden?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Oh okay, close, not really, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, he was a pivotal a very important relationship to
disclose in the book because he was the person that
I was with while influencing.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, and you met that online.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah. I think that it's important for people to read
about what it's like to date an influencer, and what
it's like as an influencer to date someone h and
the imbalance that comes from meeting somebody who started off
as a fan. You know, that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah, it is because he was a fan, and he
had been married. He and his ex wife followed your
blog and was is that Did that feel exciting?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Was that overwhelming that he was a fan? Like how
how does how do you?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
How do you get into a relationship with someone and
know they're not a total creep when they're your fan?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I mean, there's a level of trust there. But I
think ultimately it brought an imbalance of power and balance
because at first I felt like he was just a fan,
and then you know, it's just there was just that
weird like he had known me as leaf from America
before I knew him, and came to the relationship with
(17:14):
all these preconceived notions of how our life would be
or whatever. So it was a really interesting experience.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
And and dating overseas too.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yes, and living overseas, and I think that as Americans
we can totally romanticize, like, oh my god, I want
to live in Europe and listen, it's not easy. There's
a lot of reasons. There's a lot of reasons why
people say that and never go it's pretty good here
in America. I remember going over seas and trying a
(17:50):
macha and it was like a yellow They didn't really
they gave me like turmeric. They didn't even have Matcha yet,
and we're just lucky here. You know. Their health food
store was an aisle, not a store. And yeah, I
was like, oh, okay, Like maybe I was romanticizing this
a little bit. It's hard, It's really really hard. And
when you realize that, or I realized that in Sweden,
(18:12):
I'd always be a foreigner and I had to really realize, like,
I'm not okay with that. And Ebert obviously had to
stay there for his kids, and that plus just other
mismatches in our relationship ultimately ended up splitting us up.
But I learned a lot in that relationship, for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
What did you take away from that relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
That first of all, I wasn't ready. Second of all,
how I wanted to be treated. A third that if
if I want to make a relationship work, I have
to prioritize it. And I also wanted somebody that I
(19:03):
could fully trust, and I couldn't fully trust that person.
So it gave me. It gave me the feeling the
realizing how important trust is.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
When you talk about the power and balances, what is
the power and balance of someone who is a well
known influencer dating someone who is not an influencer.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
How does that shake out?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Well, I think that, like, like I'm engaged right now
to a non influencer, and I think that there's no
we're very equal in our power in that way. I
just meant before, when you're dating a fan, that's a
power imbalance. Like he wasn't just a regular he was
he was a fan like you know, so he had
seen my content for years and he came to the
(19:45):
table thinking he knew who I was. And and I
feel like, no matter what, like I was still just
like me from America to him. Whereas when you meet
somebody on the same equal playing field of like they
don't really necessarily know all of the things about you
before you go on first date. I think that's more
of a more equal playing field. And that's how it
(20:07):
is online now. Like that's if you're online dating and
you google someone and they have a public profile, like
you can read a lot about them, and that's just
how it is. But I think it's really really important
for all those single people listening to if you are
looking someone up there you're about to go on a date,
(20:28):
you can read about it, but don't go too deep,
just still. I think it's really important to like be
open and trying to come up with all these preconceived
notions of who somebody is that you just see online,
because that's just one side of someone.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
So you say, you kind of your description of this
book says, Hey, guys, my name is Lee Tillman. This
is my memoir. It's about my time as a professional influencer.
At one point, I had nearly four thousand and four
hundred thousand Instagram followers and was making three hundred thousand
dollars a year.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Through brand Dell's, which is amazing.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
But then I had a nervous breakdown from the stress
and toxicity of my social media use. I developed a
severe fixation on healthy eating, logged off winter treatment, and
got free. This book is about how influencing at its
worst can consume you and what it takes to come
back from that.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I hope a lot of young people will take inspiration
and motivation from my story.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
So kind of can you tell me about the point
when you had your nervous breakdown, like how that happened
and is it hard to share that?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Was it hard to be so vulnerable in this book?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
No? I think that the no I was well, for sure,
I wrote I wrote the book pretending that nobody was
ever going to read it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That's my advice, because then you could really share everything.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, but then you have people like
me come and.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Ask you about all of your most personal intimate moments.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, what's it called the breakdown? Well, I think that
it's really important to that part of my life was
what led me here. Like that's how I view my
life as like all of our lives is like every step,
(22:16):
even though as difficult or as painful as it is,
is always guiding us to the next step. So that
was when I when I looked around and my apartment flooded,
and I realized, like all I wanted to take with
me was my dog and my passport. It was a
big wake up call because before that day, influencing meant
everything to me. And then all of a sudden, I
(22:37):
was like, you know what, Like this is actually like
this is not what I thought it was going to be.
I'm not in a good place. My mental health comes first,
and I was ready to walk away. And I was
so ready to walk away. It kind of what's the
right word, It surprised me. Because I thought, oh, I'm
(22:58):
never going to walk away from this, but I was
really ready to.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Because your fans, your followers kind of turned on you.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It's not like mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And had that ever happened before?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
No, not to that extent.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
And they turned on.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
You because you're starting a You're going to do a workshop,
and they thought you were overcharging?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Is that what it was?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
So so many influencers charge for their services, and maybe
that was like was that more in the beginning?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Because how did that happen? You were setting up a workshop.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
I feel like you had done one before, and then
all of a sudden people were calling you racist. They
were calling you all sorts of names just for starting
a workshop.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
How did how did that happen?
Speaker 1 (23:38):
What was I mean you'd have to I mean you'd
have to. I mean they would say like, oh it
was she was overcharging, she was price prohibitive, she was
being greedy. But I think that I was just a
target of their anger.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I mean, had your following been supportive before that point?
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Mostly? Yeah? I really like fans are just like yeah,
like fans are just like some of them are like
really crazy and feel parasocial, feel owed like you owe
them something. All my content was free, and they felt
like I owed them everything. It was a huge wake
up call and I realized that eventually every kind of
(24:19):
big social media persona gets canceled or has some sort
of drama. I think it's a brighter passage at this point,
but at the moment it was very painful. But it
really taught me a lot, and it really made me
realize like, these female supportive spaces are not always what
they seem. And yeah, it was so entitled. It was
(24:47):
so entitled. It was wild. But it made me really
want to take a step away and be like, oh
my god, these people are so unhealthy. I this is unhealthy.
Maybe this Strava is unhealthy. Maybe my community is unhealthy.
I need to take a step back.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Well.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
And it's probably heartbreaking at the same time, because you've
been so focused on providing content, like you're so regimented
on posting and getting your stories up and starting your
daily routine and sharing your whole life, and everyone who's
following you is responding well to it, and then just
to have everyone, like so many people turn that has
(25:26):
to feel like being it's like such a backstab from
people you've been like really waking up to serve this
community with your life, and now in one.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Second they turn on you. I mean that has to
feel heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah, it was like it really Yeah, you've been like
showing up for them, like giving your life to them.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Right now it's like, really, okay, you can go that fast, right?
What did that teach you about this?
Speaker 3 (25:56):
What did that teach you about how you had been
showing up for your social media life versus your real life.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Oh? It taught me to always put real life before
social media. It taught me to invest less emotional energy
in the feelings of my followers, and it taught me
to be a better business woman and also support for
people who would face the same kind of backlash for
some silly, just thing that they did. It taught me
(26:26):
a lot about how women hold other women to impossible standards.
It taught me how people find joy and watching the
downfall of others. It taught me about online hate groups.
It taught me about mob mentality, taught me about cancel culture,
It taught me about feminism. It was just it changed
(26:47):
me fundamentally, and it was actually, I say, I always say,
it was like the best thing that ever happened to
me because I think a lot of people are fearful
of canceled, of cancel culture, and once it happens to you,
you realize that that fear is gone.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
So you kind of were canceled.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Well, it's up for people some people, Yeah, I mean
attempted cancelation. I mean what even is canceled?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Yeah, so they're gonna people learn to cancel you over
a workshop that you put up. Yeah, okay, So what
does that feel like when you're you're following? You said
it taught you so much, But what does that teach
you about cancel culture? Because to be in the eye
of wanting to be canceled by these people who had
been lifting you up, what did you learn about cancel culture.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
That? Like, I think a lot of people feel and
be when they watch someone rise and gain power and
they're just waiting for you to trip up, and they
actually don't even know what they're mad about. They'll just
take a go for the for the lowest step as
soon as and as soon as other people are doing
it too, they're like, okay, cool, let's go in together.
(28:02):
It's really frightening and low like low energy and too
easy for people to do and it makes them feel
really good, like they feel morally superior because they're like, well,
I would never post a workshop of that cost, and
it's like, well, nobody would buy your tickets, like mine
(28:22):
sold out, Like that's why I charge what I charge.
You could never sell out a workshop, like sorry, just
how it is.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
And so many influencers charged so much for workshops?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Was this just like one of the earlier ones where
people were just because I feel like now this is
very common for influencers to start a workshop, to start
a retreat, to charge tons of money.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And it's like you have to ask my audience.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
But it's like if you don't want to do it,
why don't they just not buy the ticket?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Who cares? Like you know, why does someone have to
make it a thing?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
It sounds like you have reason and rationale, but there
is none.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Yeah, so what did you do after that happened? So
that's when you decided You're kind of like having a
little bit of a nervous breakdown. You're realizing that this
(29:19):
is not everything that you thought it was. What did
you do in that moment when you took a step back?
How did you take a step back? And like, what
was that season of your life.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Like, oh, it was so good. I realized, like my
first morning not being on social media, I made a
match just for myself without posting about it, and I
was like, oh, this is really good. I really really
like this. Like I was, I wasn't sure how it
would be to be off social media, but I.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Was like, I like this because before you were making
it like your macha morning, It's like you were just
starting your day with the Internet.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
It's like here we go.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Here's the coffee, and then you'd walk them through your
whole day like you were always on it. Right, Okay,
so now you're off it, just do it for you
because you like matcha Yeah that's a new concept.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah yep.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
And so then what happened with your mental space after that?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I mean, I just I to say that I healed
is not even fully describing it. I just like, I mean,
I just came back to myself. I figured out who
I was without social media. I figured out who I
was without leaf from America, without my audience, and I
found that digital I found that identity outside of the
(30:36):
digital sphere. And I think that's really important and that's
why I was able to work on this book, What
did you do.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
To find that for someone who maybe is in your spot?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Because I feel like, especially even with this younger generation,
they have grown up on Instagram, they're on TikTok, they're
on YouTube. Like it's not even like a question. They
don't even know there's another option. They're just born with
a phone in their head and on social media. Like
this next generation. It kind of freaks me out because
they don't even know the difference. What would you tell
(31:07):
someone who is feeling consumed and at a breaking point,
who wants to detalk and get back to the core
of who they are? What did you do in that time? Like,
how did you get back to you? What were some
of the things you did?
Speaker 1 (31:22):
I found friends who were not in the industry, who
were private citizens. That's the difference I call between like
someone who might be like you, you're a non privatistem
because you have a podcast. Me, I'm not privatitisans because
I have a book. But then there's just people who
are private citizens who don't have They may have social media,
but they just like it's private, you know, they don't
(31:43):
really engage with that kind of stuff. So find them
because they're they're great people to root down in reality
of the real like go outside, talk to your neighbors,
talk to if you're dealing with mental health problems, to
a professional or someone you trust, and get support in
(32:04):
that way and explore yourself. Like I started taking improv classes,
I started going to stand up comedy shows. I just
figured out what I wanted to do. I just like
lived my life based off of what I wanted versus
what what everybody else was doing on social media. It
was really great.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Did you worry about income because you were fully making
your income on social media?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Right?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah? I went back to work.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I just started that to work.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, I went back to a nine to five.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
And how was that?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It was interesting? It was really interesting going off of
trying to kind of turn my resume into, you know,
a corporate thing and try to change my influencing experience
into a corporate into corporate friendly. But it was very enlightening.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Where did like, what feel do you work in? Where
do you go?
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Where is your Oh I'm not doing it anymore?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
What were you working in?
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I was working in social media? So I stayed in
that industry because it's kind of it was like an
obvious kind of path and I helped brands do their
social media.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Okay, that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Well is going to use your skills and turn it
into something It's very useful. Yeah, So how did you
decide that you're ready to resurface on social media because
now you're back?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
How how how do you? How do you have boundaries
with it now?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I decided it was time to resurface because I had
taken so much time off that I was full of
ideas and inspiration and found the joy and in creating again,
which is what I think I'm really good at. And
then how do I how do I handle boundaries? Now?
I just have a pretty good inner like clock and
like an inner kind of alarm system where if I'm
on a too much, I just don't feel good and
(33:57):
I feel really justs regulated and really monkey brain and
very distracted and emotional. And so I will just like
put my phone down or turn it on, do not disturb,
or just not go on the app for a few
days and go outside, talk to friends, get lunch with someone,
call my aunt, call my grandmother, like just reconnect. And
(34:18):
I have those practices that help me do that.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
So do you feel pressure to post now or do
you just post because you want to share what you know.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I just I just post what I want to post.
I don't really feel pressure to anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Isn't it wild, though, that this is a whole lifestyle
and a whole conversation and a point where you wrote
a book about it because I feel this, and I like, honestly,
a few years ago, I'm forty two now, and when
I was thirty eight years old, I had my no
I was thirty six, I had my daughter, and I
realized like I had an unhealthy relationship just with myself
and with social media, and I kind of quit posting
(34:52):
personal things because it made me feel very violated that like,
people that I don't know are just watching my life
and watching my daughter, and just like, wh.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
We're just watching people.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And it's not that you can't learn wonderful things and
have incredible shared knowledge through these resources, but like it
really it didn't toll on my mental health, and I
ended up hiring like a life coach, and I scaled
back on social media extremely and I just kind of
like try. I mean, I still did my podcast, but
(35:24):
besides that, just sort of stopped sharing my personal life
and it felt very hard to unplug from that, it
felt very difficult that I to take that turn where
I don't have to just share everything, because I remember
like I would like just be traveling and going to
see my family or sister or whatever, and I just
(35:44):
would always have to post little snippets of everything I'm doing.
And finally I got to the point where I'm like, why,
why Why am I sharing my whole life for people
that I don't know, And you're always having to think
about a post. You're always having to think about what's
going to get the most in engagement, and it's literally
like you can't just be a human anymore. You have
(36:04):
to have this. It's almost like your sixth sense has
to be social media, Like it's this part of you
that's almost required. Like you said, you're either a private
citizen or if you're not, you feel like you have
to share on social media and to find a balance.
I feel like so many of us struggle with, Yes,
you wrote this book about it, and you've done an
incredible soul journey, but like this is a very common
(36:26):
feeling that a lot of us are going through right now.
I'm just like feeling like we don't want to share
a whole life and we don't want to have to live.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Well, you don't have to, that's the thing, like, like
you really don't. There's there's a lot of jobs outside
of social media, like like I did social media for
a job after but then I actually realized I was like, okay,
I really need a break break from social media fully,
so I became I worked at a local bookstore during
(36:54):
the holidays and helped sell books, Like I worked as
a caterer at a restaurant, like like, there's other ways
to I totally understand what you mean. And the choice
that we have is either to do it or not
to do it, and people find joy in both.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
To not to just as hard though, because everyone's doing.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
It, I disagree. I mean, I feel like I know
so many people who are not doing it. But maybe
that's because I just wrote a book and those people
are talking to me. But there's a lot of people
who are just like not on social media, at least
here up here in New York. It feels like everyone is,
but they're not. There's a whole world out there, and
(37:38):
it takes a couple of years to realize like oh yeah,
like it's okay, but you know, I understand what you're saying.
It can be isolating, Like if you work in media
and you're not on social media, you are going to
be It's kind of like working in news and not
reading the news, like you're expected to know what's going on,
and that world loves fast and there's always the next trend,
the next real the next pop cull a moment. But
(38:04):
there's other industries that don't require that. But it's becoming
more and more common to be on social media, but
I think that you can still find people who are
not on it.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
So why did you want to write this book?
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Well, I woke up one day working in one of
my non social media jobs and I was like, this
is a This needs to become a book because I've
always turned to books and memoir to tell me how
to be and tell me tell me like like reading
other people a good memoir, even if you haven't been
to the experience give makes you feel like, oh, I
(38:41):
felt that I relate to that feeling. And I was
really shocked when I walked away from Influencing that nobody
had written a book like this before. So I was like,
I'm going to write this book. I'm going to write
this book. This is going to be. I'm going to
do it, so I don't care if no one reads it.
So I just like set out to write this book,
and here we are.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
What do you want people to get when they read this?
How do you want them to walk away?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
I want them to feel less alone. I want them
to relate to the feelings of social media, whether or
not they post, or they're an influencer or an ex influencer,
or just maybe their child wants to become an influencer.
I want them to feel less alone and also have
an inside feeling of what the job is really Like.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
What do you have to say about influencing?
Speaker 3 (39:24):
If someone wants to get into influencing, what are your
tips and advice about that?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, that's a really good question. Read the book first,
like I mean, like listen, Like this was my experience.
The way that I was doing it wasn't good. I'm
obviously back on social media now and I'm doing it
doing it much differently. So only the person can be
the barometer for how healthy or unhealthy it is. But
I think that it's important to just stay aware and
(39:52):
go slowly and play the long game.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Yeah, do you have a different do you have like
a way that you go about it now that's different.
How would you say you're doing it differently now versus then?
Because now you're back, you've gone through all this healing.
What would you say is the difference of your social
media use now versus then?
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Well, back then, I was willing to do whatever it
took to beat the algorithm and stay on top of
people's feeds and you know, get the most likes. And
I don't worry about that anymore. I just post what
I want to post, because that kind of outlook of
always trying to beat the last post is exhausting. And
what I've realized actually from being in this industry for
(40:36):
sixteen years, is that the people who come out on
top are actually the ones who just stay consistent and
not burn out. So that's important to realize that is
actually consistency is more important than metrics and whatever your
consistency is. So if that's posting once a month, then
do that. If that's posting once every three months, I
know a girl on substacker posts like four times a year,
(40:58):
and that works for her. She does other things, obviously,
but that's the consistency that works for her. I know
people who post every day, so it just really depends
on what you can do.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Do you How do you feel about social media in general?
Speaker 1 (41:12):
I think that it's a tool that we need to
be discerning of. So if it's again making us feel
bad about ourselves, then we need to reevaluate what kind
of content we're taking in or take a break from
it altogether. But I do think that it can be
a neutral thing.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I think it's awesome. I think it's great you wrote
this book.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I think it's great you're sharing the story of influencing and.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
All the sides to it. It's definitely a big situation.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
That we're all learning how to navigate in our society
these days, because I feel like now we're kind of
starting to see the effects of it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
It kind of came out.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
I remember when it came out, like in two thousand
and seven, was when I got my Instagram.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Page and did not know what it was.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
And now we're kind of seeing how it's played out
over the years, all the different ways it can play out,
how can affect mental health. And I just think it's
great that you're writing this inside perspective and thank.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
You for sharing. Lee.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
I always wrap up with lead your Light, and it's
just a super open ended question.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
What do you want people to know?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Drop some inspiration, lead your light, do what you want
to do, no matter what you worry. People might say,
it's your life and it's really important to just follow
your bliss and not worry about what other people are
going to think.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Love it? Okay, So where can everyone keep up with you?
Find the book all the things?
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yeah? So my book is called If you don't like this,
I Will Die. My name is Lee Tilman, my instagram
is at Lee from America, and my substack is called
hand wash Only.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Hey well, Lee, thank you so much for sharing your
journey and sharing the inside of social media and just
good luck with everything.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
This is awesome. Is this officially out?
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yep, officially out?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (43:01):
If you're looking for the insider to what it is
like to be a professional influencer, this is awesome.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Thank you so much, Lee, I appreciate your time.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Thanks Caroline, Bye bye
Host
Caroline Hobby
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