Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Carrie Lene, she's a queen and talking to you, so
she's getting not afraid to feel the texiso.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
So just let it flow.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
No one can do we quiet like cary Lene.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
It's sound for Caroline.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm so happy to be with the legend. Michelle mace Kuran,
you have a physical copy.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Look at you. You're so cool. I mean, wow, this is.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
When I was like reading this book and I was
reading all of your advice.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
This is really like, honestly, you're someone.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
That people should take advice from because you have you're
not doing figuratively who has overcome stuff? Like I feel
like every single person overcomes things. They overcome traumas, they
overcome fears, they like have.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Awakenings in themselves, myself included.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I've been on this journey and it's like everyone has
so much to share and so much knowledge and so
much wisdom, but like not everyone is almost dying every
day and like literally putting their life on the line
and having to face these fears in a real time.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Existence.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Like it's not like Okay, I just need to work
on this and overcome this. It's like if you don't
face your fears and figure this stuff out you're gonna
possibly die because your job is so intense, and so
your tips and your thoughts for life and your like plan.
It's so amazing to see how you transfer being a thunderbird,
(01:47):
which is like you're like one of the old five
five women in the world to have ever done this.
And I want you to tell me this story in
the back story, but you transfer your real life experience
of a imposter.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Shundom, feeling like you're not good enough to.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Be doing this, and then like the fear of having
to actually like it's like life and death, Like you
can't make mistakes when you're doing it, you know, because
like so much is writing on it, and so you've
processed all this, you've thought of it all, and you've
laid it out on how to like get on the
flip side of it.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
And it's really profound.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Thank you, And that means a lot, because you know,
I think military books, fighter jet books tend to appeal
to men more than women in general, and people who
like love reading that genre. But when I wrote my book,
and I sat down over the last three years and
like went through all these experiences in the decade and
(02:41):
a half that I was flying fighter jets, and I
was like, so many crazy things happened that are going
to be inherently interesting to people, but how do I
pull lessons from them? It was like a therapy session
for me, honestly, because it was a lot of stuff
that I was like, Oh, that sucked. Somehow I got
through it. But then to sit down with some years
of separate and be like, how did I really get
through it? When I thought about who I was talking to,
(03:05):
who I was writing to, it's other women, you know.
It's whether that's like the twenty year old who's about
to enter the workforce and it's just like, holy crap,
I'm a beginner. I don't know what I'm doing. I
don't belong here, or it's sending your kids off to school,
or it's like going back to work after having kids,
or it's going So many women who are facing retirement
have reached out to me and they're like, everything you
(03:28):
talk about, I feel like I'm experiencing it again. And
I'm sixty years old and I should know what I'm doing,
but I feel like I don't. And so I'm so
excited to be on a show like this because I
can't wait to get these stories and these lessons into
the right people's hands, and I think your audience are
those right people.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I appreciate you taking the time to dissect your experiences
because it's not just a memoir, like this is like,
this is not just a memoir. This is like, Okay,
this is how you do life, Like literally, this is
how you do it, and like I want to know
why did you start writing this, like and then how
did you get to these because each chapter I love
that you have each chapter and then like at the
(04:06):
end of it you talk about so let's talk about
like this.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
One, Like we'll just go with chapter which one is
this one?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
It's called chapter six, don't get stuck in the comfort
in the comfortable misery, And you go through stories and
you explain stuff that you went through and when you
were stuck in the comfortable misery, but then how you
flipped it. And so then at the very end you
kind of wrap it up, which I love a good
wrap up because it's like I can go back and
I can get these points quickly if I don't have
(04:34):
time to like sift through the book, Like you're giving
us the bullet points, and then you wrap up the
whole book again at the end with the key facts
that we need.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
To take away.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
So it's like a playbook that we can just like
refresh ourselves quickly, Like yes, you can get into the
full stories. But then it's like, okay, in the last
and the end of the chapter, you say, here's the
script side. Here's what we fall into naturally, is we
choose comfortable misery over change. Here's how you flip it.
You make the hard decision to choose growth. And it's like,
so we have to teach ourselves this stuff. You know,
(05:02):
we don't just know these things, and our natural default
is to do the scripted version of what feels comfortable.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
But you learn the flip side.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, for sure. I think the book, like it's most
fundamental is very obvious stuff, right, Like it's nothing that's
insanely profound that people have never heard before, but it's
stuff that we have to be told again and again
and again, and it has to be framed in different ways,
and sometimes the right wording or the right context or
the right story associated with it, we'll just land for
(05:33):
that one person in a different way than when they've
heard it before, and all of a sudden, it clicks
and they can lay that over their own life and
be like, oh, this is where I'm doing that getting
stuck in the script side what I call the stale scripts,
which is like just our playbook that we're running normally,
and we get used to it and it becomes our normal,
and it's so hard to step out of that because
(05:53):
we just shy away from uncertainty and change as humans.
And so I think it can be a wake up call,
but also just give that game plan of like, hey,
this is hard, it's gonna suck, but that's okay. We
can do hard things. We can get through it, and
here's the rewards on the other side if you're willing
to do that.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
But I'm telling you, I listened to you because I
know you had to do it. You know.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
It's like, I know you had to do it. It's
not like you kind of decided you wanted to change
and better your life.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
It's like, no, you had to, like you had to
figure this out.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, there were for sure moments where it was like
you better just show up and do this, or like
the other option is failure or failure airborne, which as
you mentioned, can have really extreme conse consequences, or just
not meeting these standards that are upheld in this extreme
performance environment that I was part of, but also that
(06:43):
I created for myself. I've always been, you know, a perfectionist.
I was a straight A student. I'm like, I'm the
golden child. I got a full ride just to college
from the Air Force, and I got a fighter jet
out of training, which was super competitive, and that actually
created a lot of issues. Wow. I think a lot
of people identify with this if they've done well for
a while and they become like it goes back to
(07:05):
when you're a kid, right, you become the one in
your family that your parents are really proud of and
they're telling their friends about, and you're the easy kid
and you're independent and self sufficient. Great, that makes for
easy parenting. But when you carry that pressure on yourself
into adulthood and you are going to hit us a
point where you aren't perfect, right, Like, no one's going
(07:26):
to go through their whole life without having some sort
of failure. And I started to experiencing that as a
young fighter pilot because the standards are so high, the
job is so difficult, and it just takes years of
experience to start to feel comfortable and confident and to
get good at it.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Is that when you started really feeling.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Imposter syndrome, absolutely, because that was such a new thing
for me. I'd done all of these hard things where
I had to work really hard, I had to put
in a lot of time, a lot of effort to
make it happen. But I was always able to close
that gap.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
And you were able to do it, and then you
were able to get the praise too, the praise that
you were going for.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Do you think I think partially the two get mixed together.
Some of it's running towards these accolades.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Or validation, you know, because we're all looking to be validated,
especially when we're young, like oh okay, I did this,
I'm worthy.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And I think more and more as I got into
my early to mid twenties, it was running away from
failure and shame and embarrassment, like I don't have to
get a gold trophy. I actually would rather just fly
under the radar. I don't want to be highlighted by anyone.
I don't want to be put on the spot in
front of people. That makes me uncomfortable because I was
shy and introverted growing up, and I mean I still am.
(08:40):
I've just forced myself as a learned skill to be
a keynote speaker and do interviews like this and get
in front of people. But I was so afraid of
what failure would mean because I had wrapped my accomplishments
up in my identity in a way where I couldn't
separate the two to see that failures normal. We have
(09:01):
value as humans whether we fail or succeed, like inherently right.
And I just couldn't get my brain around that. And
so I was just running full speed ahead, yes, towards success,
but more so away from the shame that comes with failure.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
What did you think was going to happen if you failed?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
It's like one of those things where it's almost this
just ambiguous, bad, dark feeling, right, It's it's people would
be disappointed. I don't know why I put so much
emphasis on my parents, because they were so supportive. They
weren't like overly strict or super harsh or you know,
if I didn't get straight a's It's not like I
was going to get screamed at or something. They were
(09:42):
really supportive parents. But I think I just internalized that
as a lot of pressure to like make them proud.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
And maybe because you started at a young age accomplishing
and making them proud, you kind of thought that's just
who you were, Like you didn't know, like maybe in
the back of your head, even though you said your
parents are amazing as a kid, you don't know, like
what if they don't love you, if you're not as accomplished,
you know for sure.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And that's been you know, learning more about like human
psychology and just attachment theory and all the things of
how much that relationship impacts us as adults. I think
one thing is that I grew up in a very
blue collar family in rural Wisconsin, kind of a farming community,
and my parents both worked a ton. Like my dad
(10:26):
did like over the road trucking, was gone all day
or every day every night during the week. Was home
on the weekends, and then my mom was home at nights,
but she worked like fifty to sixty hours a week.
So there was a good portion of time where I
had a babysitter when I was younger, or would stay
with my grandparents. But once I was, you know, twelve
or older, I would come home and the house would
(10:48):
just be empty and I would be there by myself
until sometimes I went to bed and my mom would
get home after I was asleep, or she would get
home after dinner, and I felt like I was okay
with that, like I'm self sufficient, I can do this.
But I think that does impact kids, right, it forces
them to be super hyper independent. And it wasn't about
my ability to make myself dinner, but it was more about,
(11:10):
you know, coming home to an empty house after you've
been bullied at school that day, or like you like
you need an emotional outlet.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And you just had internalize it all.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Right, You're just like, Okay, I will just have the
fortitude alone to deal with this. And one that really
sticks out in my memory. That's something everyone will remember,
but so specific. So I'm I think a freshman in
high school when September eleventh happens, right like, I'm in
my art class. We put it on the TV. I'm
(11:39):
what like fourteen years old. I don't really have a
great understanding of how big of a deal this is,
but I know it's bad and I know it's sad
and it's scary. And I go home to this empty
house that day and I'm like, surely one of my
parents is going to call right, like they know this
is happening. Obviously everyone knows it's happening. Surely they're going
to call it and be like, hey, we just want
(12:01):
to check in. We know this is a big deal,
and no one did. And I just remember sitting at
home and being like, I feel like this is a
huge deal and I don't know what it means, but
I'm just alone here dealing with it. And I always
hate to like call them out because they were so
supportive and we all know no one's a perfect parent,
but I think little things like that they shape how
(12:24):
you show up when you become an adult. And the
more I've thought about that, I'm like, I really just
had this idea that I had to make it on
my own, right, Like I intrinsically as like I just
internally like to do well at stuff. I'm you know,
really driven, and I always if there's a goal that's
very tangible, like getting an A on a test, I'm like, Okay,
(12:45):
that's what I'm going to do, or getting the F
sixteen out of pilot training, or trying to get my
book on the bestseller lists. I'm just super goal driven.
But then you add on this kind of like lone
wolf mentality that I should be to do it on
my own without asking for help, And that really started
to become a problem when I was a young fighter pilot.
(13:07):
Tell me why I'm failing all the time in that
environment and so is everyone else? That's new.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Was it hard for you to be failing all the time?
Did you feel like you were the only one?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Exactly exactly how I felt. I you know, I have
a few other young pilots in the squadron that came
in around the same time as me, and I objectively,
I know they must be failing. To write, like if
someone was to pull me aside and be like, hey,
how do you think they're doing it? Okay, they're probably
not having a perfect flight either, that's just impossible. But
(13:36):
when it came to emotions, I would be like, oh,
I messed up this thing. I got this harsh feedback
in the debrief after a flight, and I would feel
so ashamed about it, and I would want to make
sure it stayed a secret. And rather than going to
those other peers who were in the same boat and
be like, man, I had a rough flight, how's it
going for you? Inventing and finding support or even going
(13:57):
to a mentor who was more experienced in asking for help.
I was just like some silently, Yeah, it's a sign
of weakness. I can't show weakness here.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But that's what you did as a kid too.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, yeah, so I see it now, But at the
time I had no perspective on that at all.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Wow, So when did it start changing?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
When you're really when you started to realize I need
to flip some of my beliefs here, like, because like,
when did you start realizing I can't operate the same
way I have been from my adolescence now into like
a young adulthood in this career path, because like, tell
us about what it's like to be a thunderbird, Like
what do you do? Like and it is like hard,
You're you're flying inverted. Like you talk about Top Gun
(14:38):
in the movie. You give us this great reference because
we've all like relate to top Gun and Maverick and
like one of the big things is when he flips
upside down and you even quote that in there, and
he's like, how did you know that plane was a
bubby or something? He's like, I was inverted or something
like lying upside down, Like you're doing that and you're also.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
The the solo. Is that what it is?
Speaker 3 (14:59):
So tell about this so people just know the depth
and magnitude of this career path you have chosen.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, so that's about like seven eight years into my
time flying that jet, So there's some massive growing and
experience that happens over that time. But to get to
the Thunderbirds, you know, there's six pilots on the team
that fly in the demonstration any given years, so you
are one of six. We don't have any backups. Anytime
people see those jets fly at an air show, the
(15:26):
same pilots are flying. A lot of people think we
must have like spares that rotating kind of like a
football team, you know, the same people aren't on the
field constantly. We do not have any backups.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
So why is that? Why is there no backup?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
It's just a big demand on the Air Force to
train someone for that position and to pull them out
of the operational combat squadrons to go to this special
assignment to do air shows for two to three years.
There's a fighter pilot shortage, so it's already a big
ask to pull you know, six pilots, and then there's
two more on the team that do some background stuff
(16:00):
with moving jets and narration for the show and flying
the celebrities and all that kind of stuff. But the
amount of training you have to have to be really
good at your specific role in the demonstration. It's such
a full time job, like you have to train for
it constantly. We would fly ten times a week during
training season, so twice a day, five days a week
(16:21):
to get the reps in to get good, and there's
just no one like you just can't have an extra
person doing that as a backup. So it's a very
rigorous schedule. You know, for about nine months of the
year March to November's airshow season, we were on the road,
going to a different city every week, kind of like
a sports team or a band on tour on the road.
Two hundred and forty days a year. We get there,
(16:44):
fly practice, fly a show on Saturday, fly show on Sunday,
and then Monday we'd move to our next location or
come home for a couple of days before leaving again
on Thursday. So definitely an intense schedule you work every weekend.
But then the flying itself, it's just so different than
the flying that you would do in an operational F
sixteen unit where you're flying a gray colored jet. Right,
(17:08):
Thunderbirds red white, and blue, very similar to the Blue
Angels if people are familiar with the Navy's version. The
Thunderbirds are just the Air Force's version of the demonstration team.
So the mission of the team is really recruit, retain,
and inspire. So it's this tool to bring the military
to the American public.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Okay, So like when you're just a fighter pilot, you're
like in.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
War zone, right, you can be, Yet when you're a Thunderbird,
you're not right, right.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So the Thunderbirds focus are these air shows. Yeah, they
all almost all of us had combat experience previously. We
all had several hundred hours and several years of experience
already flying a fighter jet in an operational or combat
squadron before we apply to the team. It went onto
that special duty, but that flying. You know, I was
(18:00):
pretty experienced by the time I got hired, and I
get to the team, and it's like being a brand
new beginner again because it's just so different. You would
never fly as close as we fly in an operational setting.
There's just no reason to do it, and it's really uncomfortable.
And the margin for air is really small. You would
never fly head on at another jet at five hundred
(18:22):
miles an hour to have like the solo opposing pass
where the two jets look like they're playing a game
of chicken, Like, you would never do that in operational squadron.
So it was scary at first. We always joke that
you have to kill your survival instinct. Why because you
just like you, you don't want to be that close
(18:42):
to another airplane. You don't want to be one hundred
feet off the ground upside down, Like every primitive thing
in your body is just like I should not do this.
It's the feeling you get when you're about to skydive
or you know, go bungee jumping. You're standing on the
platform and you're like, I know I'm safe, Like this
thing is attached to me, I'll be fine, but I
just can't do it, like I'm frozen. This is so terrifying.
(19:05):
It's that natural instinct of fear, and we had to
overcome that to get into the positions that we flew
for the air show, And the way we did that
was just little by little exposure over time, getting closer
and closer each day until it became normal.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Why did you want to do this? This sounds so scary.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I've always liked kind of thrill seeking type things to
some extent. My threshold for that, I would say, has
gone down as I've gotten older, as it does for
many people. But I thought the flying did sound fun
and exciting. But the mission of the team, that inspiration
part really spoke to me. And I knew, you know
(19:56):
that Sophie women had flown. I mean, there's not a
lot of female fighter Pelatine General, but so few women
had flown for the Thunderbirds and there hadn't been one
on the team in about five years when I applied,
And I was like, there's a whole generation of little
girls going to air shows and not seeing someone that
looks like them. And you know, in any other squadron,
(20:18):
I don't like, gender doesn't matter with your ability to
do your job. The jet is what it is, right like,
the mission is what it is. But when it comes
to a mission like that, which is connecting with other humans,
there's all sorts of research that supports that we get
more inspiration from people that we can relate to, you know,
(20:39):
like people that push back on this because I do
get some pushback on the whole, like see it to
be a concept which I very much believe in. People
be like, my daughter is going to go be a
fighter pilot. She's never met a female fighter pilot. Like,
we don't need those role models. It's not a thing.
I'm like, No, it is. Think if you're an American abroad,
you know, you're you're traveling in France, for example, ample
(21:00):
and you run into another American in line at a cafe,
You're immediately going to be like, oh, this is awesome.
It's so great to connect to us. Some like where
are you from? Oh, my cousin went to college. Where
you went to college? And you just have this impact
on that person because you find your similarities. For a
little kid, when they are just looking at something and
(21:22):
they see one guy after another that you might look
like their dad or whatever, they're like, this is still
really cool, but there's this switch that flips when they
all of a sudden see someone that looks like them
and they're like, wait a minute, not only is this cool,
but people like me can go do this cool thing.
And I got to see little girls have that experience
(21:43):
in front of my eyes again and again and again,
and it was by far the coolest part of the job.
It was so rewarding.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
That's awesome, that's really powerful.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I want to kind of go through some of your
chapters because I I feel like I just was reading
this and I was like, this is so this is
the book people need just for like the guide. This
is just a great guide. Can I kind of just
summarize what you said about all of them and then
(22:15):
we go through a few of them, because I want
to talk about some of these in particular that really
hit me. I thought were so interesting. You kind of
summarize the key points here, which is like you go
to war with your inner critic.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Everyone has a call sign, and I.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Want to talk about how you got your call sign
because that's an amazing story. Stop playing dress up. Remember
to wiggle your toes. And that was such a great
point too. That whole chapter was so interesting. Take one minute,
one hour, one month for change. Don't get stuck in
the comfortable misery, seek silver linings.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Focus on the next closest alligator.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
I love that one so much, and I feel like
I need advice for that right now, because sometimes life
is so overwhelming and you feel like there's so many
obstacles you don't even know where to start.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
You know, you're better lucky than good. Avoid get at home.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
At home, it is itis check your six. You're saying,
there's a chance fighting for inches on the flip side,
and pretty much I want to talk about though call sign,
wiggle your toes, I want to talk with the next
focus on the next alligator.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And then you also talk about.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
The important of having a wingman and like knowing your
roles and coming up with a game plan. And I
just think all that stuff is so fascinating. How you
really put your flight plan into a life plan, you know.
So tell us about your call sign and how you
got MACE, because that's an incredible story.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah. So a lot of people don't know that fighter
pilot call signs. They usually sound pretty cool, but they
have a story behind them. And you do not get
to pick your call sign. It's given to you usually
based on a mistake that you made as a young pilot.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Really, so you never forget your.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Mistake exactly, which you're like, that doesn't seem very nice,
But I'll get to like why I think we do it,
and I think that it's actually like a really beneficial thing.
And I wish that Top Gun brought in call sign
stories to their storyline because we have no idea why
any of the characters are called what they are, but
I would love to know.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Oh so true, right.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
You're like, what did icemand what did Phoenix do? I
have my little Phoenix Barbie behind, like how did she
get her call sign? So I get to my first
combat squadron. It's in Massawa, Japan. It's a small city
in northern Japan. I'm fresh out of three years of
pilot training, competing to get a fighter jet, getting one,
going off to learn to fly the F sixteen for
(24:29):
a year, and now I'm you know, now it's the
real deal. It's like going to med school and then
showing up for your residency and you're like, oh, now
I'm actually at a hospital doing the thing.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Working on a person who's having a heart attack as
we speak, right, Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yes, minny, doctor. It is so so similar. I've talked
to so many medical professionals and different speeches and stuff
I've given, and when I talk about that feeling of
you've done all the things, you've checked all these goals off,
and you have arrived at that thing you were working
for for so long, and then you get there and
you realize you don't.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Know, and it's and it's you can't make a mistake.
Really you can, but you shouldn't. You got to be
very careful about it.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
It matters so much, Your mistakes matter so much.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yes, it's a high repercussion environment and the only way
to learn it is to just be thrown in and
start learning on the job. And so they we relate
a lot. I mean me and doctors.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
So I get there and you know, I have some
training in this jet, but I'm fairly new and basically
we're going out for this training flight. I've literally been
in the country for like a week at this point.
I'm so so new. I'm probably still jet like, like, what
is happening? And we're gonna go do mock dog fighting.
So everyone thanks. I love that top Gun gave context
to so many of these concepts. I don't have to
(25:44):
explain it from scratch. But you know, it's like me
and my jet, my instructor and the other jet. We
don't have live weapons loaded up, of course, because this
is just training and the whole goal is for me
to get my airplane right behind his at his six
o'clock so I can shoot him with the gun that's
like part of the jet. So that's the plan. We
do these canned setups where it's like very specific parameters.
(26:07):
There's like a radio call we each make and then
it's like fights on. Okay, let's go, And I'm supposed
to be offensive, meaning I'm supposed to shoot him and
he's supposed to defend himself. So the whole goal with
this is to you know, get some airspeed on the aircraft,
like the like the after burner, which is like pushing
the throttle all the way up until that flame comes
out the back roll poll try to point at him.
(26:29):
What happens is I am in Japan, where it is
the middle of winter, it's very cold. I'm in a
very different model of F sixteen than what I learned
and trained in, So the engine I'm flying with has
quite a bit more power than the one I learned in.
But I'm so young and dumb that I don't take
(26:49):
that into account with my game plan. I'm just like
I do A, then I do B, then I do C.
Because I'm like, my skills are just so elementary at
that point that I can't adjust them. So I do
a B and C. I accidentally go supersonic, what I mean,
faster than the speed of sound.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
So casual can you can you pull yourself out of that?
You lose control?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
So the jet can go twice as speed of sound
like it, it has that capability. But and if you're
just flying straight and level, like you're set altitude, you're
not rolling or anything, nothing really happens. It's not like
the jet starts shaking or like just nothing happens. You
just see your air speed indicator go from mock point
(27:36):
nine nine to one point zero, which mock one point
a speed of sound. But I'm not just flying straight
and level. I'm trying to turn to point of my instructor.
And because I'm going so fast, the amount of space
it takes to turn the jet is just so much bigger.
It's the same in your car, right like you slow
down before you turn into a driveway because if you
(27:56):
try to make that turn at sixty miles an hour,
you and you would like overshoot it and go into
the ditch. So same thing in an airplane. And I'm
going so fast that I will the jet physically can
never turn tight enough to point at my instructor. So
there's zero chance I'm going to win this fight. Okay,
So that's like first part, which it's a young person's
(28:17):
inexperienced person's mistake, not a huge deal. What is a
big deal is that the aircraft is going so fast,
it has so much energy that when I roll and pull,
now I experience g forces right where people have all
seen this in the movies. They pull back on the stick,
they get pushed down to the seat. You know, it's again,
you're in a car and you turn really fast, you
(28:38):
get pushed sideways, but because the jet rotates, you get
pushed down like towards your feet. We are trained to
pull up to nine times the force of gravity, what
we call nine g's, So I always use the example
if you weigh one hundred pounds, you would feel like
you weigh nine hundred pounds, like you are being smushed.
It's the gravitron from the fair on steroids.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah wow, so you feel that compression?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Oh yeah, like your face if you see videos of it.
If anyone googles like air Force centrifuge training on YouTube,
you'll see all the videos it looks like your face
ages to like ninety years old in this blood. Second,
like your eyes get squished closed or they get stuck open,
one of the two. Oh my gosh, full face droops.
All that compression on your spine. But the big thing
(29:25):
in the moment, the big thing in the moment is
that the blood gets forced out of your head because
things exactly, and that's called the G induced loss of
consciousness a G luck. So your heart is only so
strong to push that blood up to your brain, and
you think about nine times the force of gravity. There's
a point in there where it's just not strong enough
(29:48):
and it gets pushed down. So how that affects you
as you start to get gray out, like your vision
starts to lose its color, and then you get tunnel vision,
and then eventually you'll get full light loss where you
can't see anything, so you're blacked out, but you can
still hear, and that's like right on the verge and
then you will completely pass out.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
This is so dangerous. So this is happening to you.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yes, and it's a big deal because I am the
only pilot in the airplane.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Okay, because you don't have a wing man.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
But you talk about the importance of a wing man,
but like this is what you need, a weak man, right.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, So in the F sixteen, which is usually a
single seat jet, we have a few two seaters that
we use for training. It's usually your wingman is in
another airplane. Oh okay, I'm next to you, like you're
you know, you're working together as a team, but you're
in two separate jets, but with a g lock. There
have been other F sixteen pilots who have hit the
(30:39):
ground when they were passed out and were killed because
they didn't recover. They don't wake up in time. It's
happened several times, so it is a big mistake. It's
serious repercussions. Now we trained to nine g's. We trained
to like you can do some things with your muscles
and your lower body to help push it back up.
You can do some unique breathing. We wear a special
suit that like wheezes our legs to help push that
(31:02):
blood back up. All of that comes together to help
you stay awake at nine g's, but for a very
short amount of time. You still can only really hang
out there for I don't know, fifteen seconds maybe, And
it just depends on who the person is, Like some
people untrained individuals, Like if we would fly someone in
(31:22):
the back seat of a Thunderbird jet and they would
be like, we want I want to be part of
the nine G club. They'd be like, Okay, A lot
of those people would pass out because they're just not
trained to it. But because I'm going so fast back
to the dog fighting story, I'm now supersonic, so I'm
going way faster than I should be, and instead of
rolling and pulling and hitting nine g's for I don't
(31:45):
know ten seconds before the jet just starts to slow
down because it just starts to lose some energy in
the turn because of physics, and so the gs start dropping.
But I have so much energy because I'm going supersonic
that I hit it and I hold nine g's for
a full hundred and three purely I'm getting excited too,
a full three hundred and sixty degree turn. So it's
(32:05):
like over twenty seconds of nine g's, I have full
light loss, meaning I can't see anything, I can still hear. Luckily,
I did not pass out completely, and like right when
I'm on the verge, my instructor is like looking back
at me out of his gets like what is she
doing because I should be gunning him by then, and
I'm just not anywhere close. So he's like, my student
(32:27):
is royally screwing this up. So he makes a radio
call to end the fight, and I hear it and
I pull back on my throttle and the jet slows down.
Geez drop. Vision comes back, and I'm Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Thank goodness, you still had consciousness to pull back on
your throttle.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, And it was really just a dumb thing to do,
Like I knew what was happening right, Like it happened
pretty quick, but I still knew what was happening as
I'm pulling, as I'm starting to lose my vision, and older,
more experienced Mace would be like, well, we don't want
that to happen, so I would, you know, pull the
power back a little bit, or I would ease off.
(33:04):
I'm pulling on the stick a little bit. There's so
many things I could have done.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
But you're still holding the course.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I am because I'm like, I have to prove I
deserve to be here.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
So you're like having this blackout type situation, but you're
still so strong will that You're like, I'm not going
to quit at the expense of yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
It's so insane, right, Like it sounds crazy.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Doesn't that because you have two seconds to even process
any of this. You've never done it before, and like
you said, you want to prove that you're worthy and
that you're that you can do this and that you're
not making a.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Mistake or whatever not.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
And so it makes perfect sense because it's not like
you're having time to analyze it really.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
And there's there's just so much happening in that moment,
right And I talk about in the book where I
land from that flight and I just feel so bad
because I know I'm messed up. And my instructor me
in our debrief where we look at all the tapes
and we see how fast I was going and and
he's like listening to the radio and me do my
(34:06):
little breathing thing that we do for to stay awake,
and it sounds like it's getting tired. And he's like,
how's your vision at that point? And I'm like on
the verge of passing out. And so he looks at
all that and he's like, if you keep flying that
like that, you're going to kill yourself. He just says
that to me matter of fact, and I just remember
like this physical reaction that I got where it was like,
(34:28):
holy shit, he's right, like.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And this yeah, yeah, it was so close to the
line of life and death is so close.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Because I think you can conceptually know that, like I
knew being a fighter pilot was a dangerous job, right,
but then when you first experience it where you're right
there and you have some sort of close call, it
is a very different realization of how true that is.
And so it was this big wake up call of like,
there's a lot of pressure on me. I need to
(34:57):
excel in this environment if I'm going to fit in
and like people are gonna believe I deserve to be here.
Also if I don't, like I could die.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
It's not so like you have to put yourself first ultimately,
like put your like they say on the airplane and
put your life mask on first, Like even though you
want to prove you're worth these other people, you have
to be your guiding star first.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, And I just didn't. I was like willing to
sacrifice myself for success at any level at that time.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yours is on such an extreme level. But can't we
all relate to that.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I think, so, I think, and I wanted to make
sure when I told stories like that because they're intriguing.
Of course, people are like and then what happened? Wait what?
But I don't want to walk away or have them
walk away with just a shock factor, right, Like, I'm like,
these are things that we all do. These are emotions
that we all experience, and these are like journeys of
(35:54):
growth and perspective and confidence and all these things that
we all go on. And I think what I love
about storytelling and telling my story now is that it's
relatable to people, like surprisingly relatable because they see the
thunderbirds and they're like, oh, superhero like people like her first,
people like me. Two different things, And I'm like, no,
(36:15):
I worked really hard at one specific skill, but on
the fundamental level, I am a human just like you,
with all the same human emotions and problems.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Totally, because I mean I feel like that.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Until I'm forty two now, and until I was thirty eight,
like I've struggled with just like feeling worthy and my
whole I came into the entertainment industry and I wanted
to be famous because I was like, if I could
just get validated on a big level. And if people
could see me and know that I have some sort
of worth, then I could believe that I'm worthy. And
I my whole life just spent my whole life trying
(36:56):
to prove to other people that I was worthy through
my actions. And it's a totally different field than what
you're doing. But like there came a point where I
finally was like, I am I don't even know why
I'm doing any of this stuff because ultimately who am I?
You know, like I have to know where my my
boundaries are and I'm what I'm my why and you.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Talk about that in this book is like figuring out
your why.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
And if it's like because you want other people to
know you're worthy, that's really.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Not a good why, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
And I feel like you come into that in this
book and you're like you have to know your why,
why you're doing it, And I feel like maybe this
was a turning point where you really did start identifying
your why.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah, I think that initial part of my career after
training was like just this shock to the system of
how I am finding my value is not a realistic
or good or healthy way to do it. Long term.
But it took me that whole assignment, which is about
three years long, of just stumbling through it and feeling
(37:59):
like I was just slogging every day and I was
dreading going to work, even though I think I was
doing fine. In hindsight, I was probably pretty average, and
then I had moments where I was above average. Of
course I had bad flights as well, but I definitely
wasn't someone who like didn't have the skill to be
there like I did fine, but I couldn't see that
in that moment, and it took me leaving Japan because
(38:23):
that is just a really interesting place because you're so
isolated from anything outside of work. You know, you don't
speak the same language as people in the community, so
all of your friends are fellow fighter pilots, your neighbors
are fellow fighter pilots. We all lived on base, so
there's no work life separation. And sometimes that's amazing, the
camaraderie and the closeness and the parties that we would
(38:45):
have and it was like super fun. But when things
aren't going well for you, you still feel embarrassed. And I
think for me personally, at least, I pull away from everyone,
and I know where to pull away from besides just
like to isolate myself. And that was just super lonely
living in a foreign country, feeling like like you said,
(39:06):
when you're reading the chapters, playing dress up, like I
felt like I put on my flight so it went
to work. I'm even called by my call sign, which
I need to wrap.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
That story because oh yeah, we got to hear about me.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
We digress, and it was just like I was two
different people because I'm more introverted, I'm quieter, I'm not
this like in your face loud type, like the stereotypes
of a fighter probably just don't fit my personality. And
then you add on so few women, and I just
really felt like I had to play a role. But
(39:36):
to put a bow on Mace before we move on.
So MACE is an acronym. It stands for mock at
circle entry, which pilot jargon heavy, but basically mock is
the speed of sound, so that's where that comes from.
And then the maneuver that I was trying to do
when I went super sonic and pulled nine G's forever
was a It's called a turn circle entry, so it's
(39:57):
an ode to breaking the speed of sound on that
one flight that day where I made such dumb decision
I could kill myself. But I also went really fast
when I wasn't supposed to, and it gave me this
cool sounding call sign. Everyone thinks that I pepper sprayed
a guy at a bar, like, so, I mean, maybe
I feel like that needs to happen at some point
just to bring this full circle. But I don't go
(40:19):
to as many bars these days, so.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
So okay, oh god, I just have so many places
I want to go, but I want to try to
say organized a little bit. You also talk about like
wiggling your toes, like why was this a whole chapter
because this was like profound for you because you thought
it was so silly.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
But like it ended up being such a big moment
for you.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, so it sounds so it sounds so dumb at
face value, and I thought the same thing. So again,
I'm you know, that first assignment in Japan, and one
of the skills that we have to have is to
air refuel. So we're flying along, you know, three hundred
miles an hour, big giant tank or aircraft as this
big tube that sticks out of the back of it
called a boom, and we literally drive our jet up
(41:05):
to it. It goes behind your head because that's where
the fueling port for the F sixteen is, and it
plugs in and you have to stay super stable while
they transfer fuel to you. And this is something that
if you're flying combat flights that are you know, four
to six hours long. If you're flying across the country,
you know, two, three, four hours, you're gonna have to
(41:25):
do multiple times. So it's like a fundamental skill.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
You have to know how to refuel while you're.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Flying, and a lot of times when you need to refuel,
you don't have a lot of time because your gas
is already low and there's probably four jets with you
and everyone's in the same situation. So if you keep
trying to get hooked to the boom and you keep
falling off and you can't do it, all of your
wingmen are watching their fuel gauge get lower and lower
and lower, and they're like, come on, we gotta go,
(41:49):
Like you got to get this figured out because there's
a lot of pressure in those environments. So I was
having this problem, which is very common where you're approaching
the boom and the six teen stick like barely moves.
Think about like a surgeon performing robotic operation where they
have like a tight they're barely moving it.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
It's tiny.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
It's it's like a normal size, but the movements are
so tiny. So it is like your fine motor skills.
And as you would get closer and closer to touching
another airplane while you're flying along, you would get nervous
and you'd be super focused, so you'd be like squeezing
the stick and your body would be super tense, and
inevitably that would lead to you over controlling it. Like
(42:32):
you would start to get too high and then you'd
be like, oh, I'm too high, and you'd push, and
then you get too low, and pretty soon you're porpoising
like a dolphin, right like high low Hilo. It's called
pilot induced oscillation.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Not because having to balance your nervous system all the time.
You're in these high intense situations and you have to
stay flatlined, like not flatline, but like you have to
stay level.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
I mean, it's just so hard to get yourself to be.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Level, especially when you're just new to it, right, Like
that is a learned skill. And so I had had
that problem on my previous flight, and I'm briefing to
go do it again, and my instructor was like, hey,
when you feel that tension and you're about to get
to the boom, wiggle your toes inside your boots, like
focus on your toes, wiggle them for a second. And
(43:21):
I know it sounds silly, but it'll like it'll smooth
things out. So I'm like, okay, sure, whatever. So I'm
flying a thirty million dollar playing Yes, I will wiggle
my toes. So I go out there the next day
and I'm in the same situation and I get to
that point and I shift my focus from staring at
this airplane in front of me in this boom and
like squeezing the stick to my toes and I wiggle
(43:41):
them and it's like my whole body relaxes.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
I'm doing it right now and I can feel like
a relaxing feeling.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yeah, it gets you out of those like hyper vigilant,
super stressed moments. And then the book I get into
like some nerdy stuff about brain waves and just like
the different levels of focus we have depending on you know,
when you're sleep, when you're relaxed, when you're focused, But
you can get into a point where you get too
focused and like too aroused is like the word they use,
(44:10):
like your brain waves are super high frequency. You're like,
I gotta get this right. I'm trying so hard and
you can actually hurt your performance when you're in that
stage and that's what I was doing. And wiggle your
toes is like this physical disruptor that gives you a
second to bring you back into the moment, bring you
back into your body, to pause for a second. It's
almost like you know, taking a deep breath and being
(44:31):
like okay, like let's regroup. I got this. And the
nice thing is no one can see it, right, like
you could do it. You could be sitting at a
table at a boardroom presenting and you're stressed out and
you can wiggle your toes and it's it's less noticeable
than pausing and taking a massive breath, right, So true
(44:52):
and everyone can do it, and I just it's worked
so well for me, even like giving a keynote speed
each which can be very stressful. Right, Like you have
that moment on stage where you forgot what you were
going to say for a second, wiggle your toes recenter.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
What do you do when you forget? When you're on stage?
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Because you said this too, like you're not you weren't
like dying to public speak, like that was also something
you had to overcome. Like you're just putting yourself in
situations that you have to like step up.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
It's really inspiring.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
But like, what do you do when you're giving a
keynote speak and all of a sudden you're like, oh
my god, I'm blanked out?
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Wiggle your toes.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yeah, so I think if it's it can be for
a split second, and usually you'll rEFInd your spot and
you'll just be like, Okay, that was like a little
bit long of a pause. The audience won't even remember
it if you completely blank and you're just like I
got nothing, Yeah, you just tell them because everyone will
be like, oh yeah, she's human too. I'm so terrified
(45:53):
of speaking, Like you get to that moment you're like
just ever, just like completely blank on what you're about
to say next at I lost my spot, give me
a second. And even if you had to like walk
over to the podium and like get notes and look
at a note for a second, but okay, we're back
in the game. People will let you do that, like
(46:14):
they are not going to judge you. Harshly because you
do that. And one of the things that you also
probably saw is I talked about beating people to your
inconvenient truth. Yes, like don't try to hide it, don't care, yes,
tell them and they'll be like, okay, yeah, that's like
that happens.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Like, don't be ashamed that you have a human moment, right,
and then because you don't, you don't have to be perfect,
you don't have to hold you obviously have the information
to share.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
If you have a human moment and you blink out,
it's okay.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
And it can actually make you better able to connect
with the audience because they see you as more relatable,
they see you as more human, they see themselves in you.
And so that's how I look at it. I'm like, yeah,
that's kind of the worst case scenario, but we have
a plan.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
You also do that, which this is crazy to me
that you say this.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
You say, think of the worst case scenario.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
Tell me why, because like, my worst case scenarios and
I think is stuff are bad, Like they're very bad
and they can scare me.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
And like I'm sure your worst case scenarios can be bad.
Why when you're entering.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Into a situation and you're doing something hard or you're
putting yourself into some sort of situation. You need to
think of the worst case scenario. Tell me about this
theory and this process for you.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yeah, I think there's there's two things that it does.
The first one is if you don't just think about it,
but you get it out in some form, you right
to keep it in you tell it to someone, like
ideally you tell someone about it, You're like, I'm about
to make this decision, I'm about to go do this thing,
and I'm really stressed that this might happen a lot
(47:53):
of times, just doing that like sheds light on this
thing you've been spiraling on in your head and all
then you're like, all right, that sounds kind of silly
now that I say it, Like it's probably not very
likely to happen, and it could be so extreme that
I've made it like it's just like something that's almost
ridiculous when I say it out loud, and it just
(48:14):
gives you that perspective. So that's like one thing that
focusing on it can help. But if it is something
that actually is a possibility, like you're i don't know,
making a business decision and you're like, yeah, there's a
chance this could fail. Now if we acknowledge it and
we get it out, write it down, we can be like, Okay,
if that does happen, what can I like, how will
I respond in that moment? If that does happen, that's
(48:37):
not ideal. I'm gonna lose some money, but I'm gonna
go do this instead, or but this is like my
game plan if that happens. So it allows you to
plan for contingencies. I learned that as a fighter pilot.
(49:00):
Not to get into like super nerdy military stuff, but
we always plan for contingencies and a lot of times
we wouldn't need to use them. But when we did it,
it was okay. Right, you didn't have this moment of
panic because you're like.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
You're shocked that it was happening.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
You're like, Okay, I've prepared for something to have to pivot,
and you talk about too having to pivot. I'm prepared
for things not to go the way that I thought
they were. And that's where you talk about kind of
creating your own serendipity. Is when something goes how you
didn't plan for it, you look for the new alternate
path as something that is a good thing, or find
(49:39):
the goodness right.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Yeah, And sometimes that can be really hard in the moment,
right like when you're in the thick of it, I
focus on okay, pause, well, how do I want to respond?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Right?
Speaker 2 (49:50):
It's that react versus respond like I want to be mad,
I want to throw a fit. I want to just like.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
This should have gone the way it was supposed to go.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
It's not fair, not fair. And so it's okay to
feel all those emotions, that's normal, but you have to
draw a line for yourself. You're like, Okay, I'm not
happy about that, But how can that has happened? That
is out of my control, It has already passed. What
can I do now? How can I respond to this
that will not make things worse and move us towards
(50:21):
those silver linings or towards another path that might open
doors we don't even know about. And I think a
lot of times finding the good, the way we can
leverage the unexpected to still be something beneficial, can take
a little bit of time, a little bit of separation.
So it's not something you have to do like in
the split second when chaos is ensuing, right, Like, that's
(50:42):
where the wiggling your toes, the pause, the response, the
calling on your wingmen, all of those tools are really useful.
Now we're on the other side of that, whether that's
an hour later because it's not something that serious, or
maybe it is something life altering and it's days later
or weeks later. Now, what can we look back on
and be like, Okay, because of that this happened, or
(51:07):
even if there was no like tangible thing that came
from it, where you're like, oh, I lost my job,
but I got this amazing job I would have never
even looked for because I, you know, all of a
sudden had to search for one. Maybe it's not that obvious.
Maybe it's just I learned that I can deal with
hard things. It's like another notch in your belt of
resilience and not having like toxic positivity where everything's fine,
(51:32):
like you're happy. I know, like your spouse just died,
but just get over it. Like that is not healthy
at all. And that's not what I want people to
think that I'm talking about. But it's the ability to
keep moving forward with optimism and recognize that bad things
will happen for all of us at some point. Right,
it's just part of being human. And it's not that
(51:55):
embodying all this stuff is going to prevent that necessarily.
It's that it's going to give you the strength improve
to yourself that you can keep going even when it does.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
And that's why you say it's important and importance of
silver lining. So do you kind of find it absolutely
necessary at some point to find the silver lining of
a situation.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
I think if it's something that's like going to stand
out to you when you look back, is like a
really bad experience, I think we could probably all list,
you know, on a single hand, like these are some
of the worst times of my life. I think it's
important to, like I say, mind your failures, or even
if it's not your failure, it's just some tragedy that happened,
give yourself a little bit of time. But then to
(52:35):
kind of get closure with that stuff. It can be
really helpful to recognize the path that that sent you
down and the good things that did come from it.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
Like maybe the depth that you gained, even if it's
like you said, a death or something and.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
It's so tragic, but how did you.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Expand because of it exactly that you could have never
done otherwise Because that those kind of sometimes that's the
only thing tragedies really do to us, is they take
us to a like you said, we would have never
accessed because we would never want to.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
It's too painful, right, and like we would never wish
anyone had to have those types of experiences. And I
talk about post traumatic growth, and especially in the military world,
we hear a lot about post traumatic stress right PTSD,
combat and all the things, and that is very much
a thing, but there's also something called post traumatic growth
(53:25):
where these objectively terrible experiences will happen, but some people
take those and they end up going on this like
massive growth trajectory because of them, and some people the
opposite happens too.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
You're so true, And why does one happen for some people?
Why does some people grow and some people stress and digress.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
There's like a lot of different factors that are involved it.
Some of it is the social support system that you have,
some of it are some of it's the tools, like
the emotional coping tools that you have already inherently learned
in your life. But there's other things about like how
you view yourself. Do you view yourself as a victim
or a survivor.
Speaker 3 (54:07):
Like that's simple, and some of us maybe have never
even thought about it.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
Yeah, like you might have never labeled it, right, you
just know it feels terrible, And so if you can
flip and be like, like, I don't want to be
a victim of that because that takes away your power,
where a survivor is such an empowering term, right. And
then another thing that is super helpful I really love
is the label a service, which is where you intentionally
(54:33):
try to help other people that are going through something
similar to what you went through, you know. So that's
someone who's lost someone close to them connecting with someone
else who's just experienced a loss. I mean, like, I
see you, I know what it's like. How can I
be there to support you?
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Having someone to lean into is just.
Speaker 3 (54:53):
Truly like, when you feel so alone, just having someone
who relates and you can be unhinged with your.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
Feelings absolutely, and when you're on the other side of that,
when you've like started your recovery journey from this bad thing,
giving back to someone who's like in the thick of it,
that can of course that's helpful for them, but that
can be really empowering for you as well to be like,
look at all these skills I've gained, all this perspective,
this wisdom I have now that can help other people.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
Yeah, Okay, there's so many key points to talk about,
but the last one I want to end on is
focus on the next closest alligator because sometimes I feel
like I'm in this situation right now? Are I was
kind of telling you and this is so minor on
the scope of like life and death things, but it's
like where you are, your reality is your perspective, and like,
my daughter's starting kindergarten and I'm so overwhelmed. It was
(55:43):
so overwhelming to figure out like what kind of school,
Like where do you send her? Like if you're making
the right choices, and it's like, how do you know
what to do when you don't know what to do
and there's so many things that you've got to figure
out how to do.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah, I feel this every day running my own business.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
I'll be honest, like, how do you know that the
right thing?
Speaker 3 (56:00):
And that's why I love when you talk about this,
like how do you know even what move to make?
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yeah? And so the next closest alligator. When I've shared this,
people will be like well, it's like how do you
eat an elevant one bite at a time? And it's
kind of similar, but there's a little bit more to
it because I think it brings in not just breaking
something into like small pieces that you can take action
on immediately, instead of focusing on like the whole overwhelming
(56:26):
year of stuff you need to do or I learned
this in pilot training, so focusing on that entire program
and how many skills I needed to learn when it's
like week one, if you did that, you would quit
because you're just like, no, I like that is just
beyond my capacity. And one of my instructors, like first
week told our whole class, he's like, you're gonna feel
(56:48):
overwhelmed this entire year, Like we are constantly pushing you
right to the edge where we can get you to
learn the most you possibly can as fast as possible
without you falling off of that cliff of over you know, stress,
to the point where you're just like I can't do
this over right.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
A way to test your bandwidth, I mean, way to
know what you can handle.
Speaker 2 (57:09):
Yeah, And that program is designed to do that because
they're like, we want to get people to the point
they need to be at with the smallest amount of
resources that we can, right uh. And so that's what
they told us. And he's like, when that starts to happen,
that overwhelming start to feel it, I want you to
focus on the next closest alligator to the boat. That means,
imagine you're in this rowboat and there's all these alligators.
(57:30):
It's like a Disney movie a river in Africa. There's
all these alligators. He's like, they're approaching you. Just worry
about the one that you need to like whack with
the paddle right now. Don't worry about the other ten,
Like you can deal with the next closest aalior once
you deal with this one. And I would visualize that
when I was like, I have this flight in this
test and this simulator and I need to memorize this.
(57:51):
And I'd be like, Okay, what do I have tomorrow morning?
I have this sim Okay, what are they testing me?
Let's focus on that. And it allowed me to compart
mentalized into the moment of what I really needed to
deal with, set the rest aside, and then it felt
like very logical where I was like, Okay, that's done.
Check what's the next alligator. So it's like a kind
(58:12):
of a silly analogy, but it works like for a
mental model so well.
Speaker 1 (58:15):
I like that mental picture so much.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
Yeah, it can just disrupt that feeling of like I
have analysis paralysis because there's so many things I just
can't do anything.
Speaker 3 (58:25):
I love that so much. There's so many things I
want to talk about. We've already been talking like an hour,
so I won't take all your time. And I want
people to read this book, The Flip Side, How to
invert your perspective and turn fear into your superpower.
Speaker 1 (58:36):
Michelle Mace Curan Is it Kuran? Am I saying it correct? Kuran? Okay?
Speaker 3 (58:41):
Yeah, Yeah, this is such an incredible book. You are
giving such great practical knowledge that is like tried and
trusted by a fighter pilot.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
I mean you are literally in the air doing such
intense things. And I just I was.
Speaker 3 (58:58):
Reading this book and just feeling to my stuff like
this is like the book.
Speaker 1 (59:01):
This is just such a good book for people to read.
Speaker 3 (59:04):
It is just it gives you such a peace of
mind when I'm reading this because it feels certain. You know,
I'm like I know this is true, Like I know
these things are true and they are. There's so many
great pieces of advice for all of us in it.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
Apply you made it so practical.
Speaker 3 (59:22):
I always wrap up with leave your Light, and it's
kind of I just wanted to ask you this question
in general, but.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Like, what are you wanting to accomplish with this book?
And what do you want people to know with this book?
Speaker 2 (59:35):
Yeah? I think, at like the most basic level, I
want other women to see what they're really capable of,
right Like, I want them to have the belief in
themselves that I see in so many incredible women. But
I also see them talk themselves out of going after
the thing they really want because it's scary and it's uncertain.
And so one of the like was ever someone's like,
(59:56):
what's like the one piece of advice you would give?
I'm I was like, the key to progress is having
the courage to start something even when you don't feel ready,
but believing yourself enough to know you will figure it
out along the way. If everyone just embraces that, people
would go do so many incredible things.
Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
So true, so true. This book is so great. I
appreciate you so much sharing your wisdom.
Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
And taking the time to put it in a book
that is like just we can hold in our hands
and flip back to This is one of those that
you're going to go back to, like I feel like
a lot, just to like refresh your memory and to
get inspiration of just like how to stay the course
and stay strong and like figure out tips because we're
all feeling these feelings of overwhelmed, imposture, feeling that we
(01:00:45):
can't make it, that we have to grin and bear
it by.
Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Ourselves, so we can't lean on someone else.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
And you just debunk so many of those things and
show us how to flip the script and it's incredible.
Tell us where we can find you, about where we
can get the book, all the things.
Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Yeah, So the book is available all major retailers, Barnes
and Noble, Amazon, Hudson News, so you probably see it
in the airport. I am on Instagram at Mace Underscore Current.
Macecurrent dot com is my website. I try to be
very cohesive with my branding, So if you google Mace Current,
you'll get all the LinkedIn Facebook, all the places.
Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
How is it thout releasing this book?
Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Surreal? Like I would say ninety nine percent excited because
I know it's going to impact so many people, and
like one percent terrified because I know there are some
people that aren't it's not for them, or there's people
that are going to give me pushback when I talk
about what it was like to be a female fighter
pilot and like the nuances of navigating that. But I
(01:01:44):
think the ninety nine percent outweighs that one percent. And
I just can't wait for some time to pass where
people reach back out and they're like, hey, I read
your book back in September, and because of it, I
went and did X, Y and Z, and here's what
has happened. Because I was brave enough to make those decisions.
That is like the ultimate reward.
Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
I think, just reminding women, especially of their bravery and
their capability that they can do it.
Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
And it's so like you said, to.
Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
See someone doing it before our very eyes and then
telling us that we can do it. And here's how
it just goes back to, like even when you're talking
about as a kid, just having someone to lean into,
to share those to share it with, to know that
it's possible. I mean, to see representation of someone doing
it before our very eyes and sharing it with us.
It is so powerful, So thank you so much Michelle
(01:02:34):
for joining me, Thank you for sharing about your book
and your experiences, and I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
To see the impact this book makes. It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Absolutely, Thank you so much for having me and giving
me a platform to share.
Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Thank you Bye.