TERRI COLE: Getting Real About High-Functioning Codependency and Setting Healthy Boundaries

In this episode of *Get Real with Caroline Hobby*, psychotherapist and high-functioning codependency expert Terri Cole opens up about the hidden challenges of being a "high-functioning" person who often sacrifices their own well-being to meet the needs of others. Terri shares powerful insights on how to identify codependent behaviors, the importance of setting healthy boundaries, and why self-care is crucial for breaking free from the cycle. Tune in for an eye-opening conversation that will empower you to reclaim your personal power and build healthier relationships.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
At Adam Caryl Lone.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
She's a queen and talking and you know she's getting
really not afraid to feel as episode or soul.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Just let it flow. No one can do we quiet,
Cary Line, it's sound for Carolne.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
You know what I like about you, Terry Cole do telling.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
I like that you just like get to the point,
like and when you're ready to leave, you just leave,
like you'll leave a conversation, you'll leave a room, you'll
leave anything when you're done with it, like you have
a strong boundary.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
But it's so kind and loving.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
That's so funny that you noticed that when it's time
to go.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
For Terry Cole, it's time to go.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
She gotta go.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
You gotta go because I admire that in people, because
I can't leave, like I have a hard time leaving,
like I have to wait for everyone to be ready
to leave.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Part of my high functioning codebend. It's like that is correct, Oh,
I know, I know.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, but I ast need to make sure everybody's done
with what they need to do and that they're finished
with what they want from that experience and what they
need from me. And so then when I feel like
everyone's ready to sleep, I'll leave.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
But when I notice people like yourself who just freaking
leave right.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
You're like, because when I need to leave is my
side of the street, and what other people need to
leave is their side of the street.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
See, you're not mind reading trying to guess why they
need you to stay longer, why you're going to say
for them, when you accomplished what you need to accomplish.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
You're out or I just want to go home.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, yeah, I've noticed that about you because I've been
lucky enough to talk to you on zoom calls like
maybe three or four times, but you always just go
when you're done, Like you're always like, okay, great, love
talking to you, bye, love me, and then you just
hang right up.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
And I'm like, I have some power right there.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
And what's so funny if my husband cannot end a
conversation with people and they said we'll be on based
on with family and whatever, and I'm like, wrap it,
look up, like we're all done. They're done, We're done.
And then as soon as we're about to hang up
and be like, oh wait, Alex, I wanted to ask her,
I'm like, how are we what is this an abandonment

(01:59):
issue thing, like, what's the deal? Is there a skill
to ending a conversation? I think there is?

Speaker 1 (02:04):
Did you always end conversations well? Or did you acquire
this over your years and years? Okay, so you're a psychotherapist. Yes,
like the best in the world in my opinion, because
you gave me my biggest breakthrough, which I was on
a hunt around the world.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
Literally.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
I hired a life coach who were both friends with
Kathy Heller. She was amazing, learned so much from her,
and then she led me to you because we had
this retreat and she was having experts come in and
teach us about ourselves and like why we were struggling
with self worth and all the things. And you came
in and you talked about hygph function codependency, and my
jaw was on the ground.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
I was like, oh my god, this is me.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
But I, like, I had no idea because I did
not think I was codependent because I was so capable
exactly yeah, and I've done so many big things and
I'm not scared to take risks, you know, right.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
But you, like everyone else, didn't understand the vast expansion
that is codependency and the particular flavor of your codependency.
It was the same as my codependency, which is why
I named a new kind of codependency, calling it high functioning,
because you were like all of my therapy clients who
anytime I would bring up, hey, that's a codependent pattern,

(03:15):
they'd be like, no, it's not, lady, I'm not codependent.
Everyone's dependent on me. I'm the one making all the dough.
I'm the one who's the rock in my family. I'm
the one managing all the people. What are you talking about?
And it made me realize, Wow, my highly capable clients
do not know what codependency is.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
What is it?

Speaker 2 (03:33):
I won't tell you. Okay. According to Terry.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
Cole, which is a good one to accord to, That's.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
What I'm saying is when you are overly invested in
the feeling states, the outcomes, situations, circumstances, relationships of the
people in your life to the detriment of your own
internal peace.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
That's a big one.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
So like those are some big words just through out there,
but like really, when you break it down, like if
you're feeling sick in your stomach because you're so worried
about everyone in your life that their outcomes aren't going
to be what you need them to be. And that's
what you said, The outcomes need to be the way
I need them to be so I can relax, Like,
I can't have them messing up how I needed to go,
or having them have construction or have them not being

(04:15):
happy or have them being mad at me, because then
I'm not going to be able to have peace.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
So I have to go control them to make sure
that I give.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Them everything I can with my people, pleasing personality, read
their energy, like feel the room, make sure they get
what they need so they can be happy, and then
I can be like, Okay, I can relax.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
So you see how that's a short term strategy.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
I lived in that way for like my whole life.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Right, But you understand you can't keep going, which is
why you were searching around.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
The world just having a prey down.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, because literally there's only so much bandwidth that we
can bleed in that way, especially once you become a mother,
especially because once you hit perimenopause or menopause, like you
just get so over all of this bandwidth bleeding. And
what I see in my therapy practice is that it
makes us presentful because we're doing it. We are proactively

(05:06):
inserting ourselves. Right, So what are the Let's talk about
the behaviors, because I feel like, let's get really clear
for people who are watching and listening to be able
to see themselves. If you are a high functioning codependent,
I mean, let's just be specific about the differences. Right,
The more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency.
Sneakier you are, but it's still codependency.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
You're extra sneaky and acting not codependent, that's right, You're
really good at it.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
But actually people perceive you as not codependent because you're so.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
Capable, probably like running some company.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
You are, and nobody is checking in on you either,
because we're the ones who are checking in on all
the other people, right. Right, So with codependency, people think
my clients were like, I'm not enabling an alcoholic. What
are you talking about? As if that is the only
way codependency can be expressed, Like.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
As if you let someone carry on a toxic behavior
that you're very aware, like drinking or drinks.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
I mean, when you think about codependency, this is how
codependency Melody Baity codependent, no more got to be involved
with an addict. This is what a lot of my
the myths that my clients thought were true about codependency,
so they didn't see themselves in the problem. So for me,
I needed to create it so they could see themselves,
because how could we get to a solution if they

(06:21):
didn't even see themselves in the problem. And you know, Caroline,
it was also my own personal experiences, So this wasn't
just me sort of changing this definition. It's me expanding
the definition because it was the flavor of my own
young life codependency where you're not just codependent with the

(06:46):
people in your life, you could be codependent. I mean,
I opened the book with a story of me being
on a platform in Long Island, a train platform at
ten thirty at night on a Tuesday, and I see
this kid, he's probably about nineteen and I'm probably about
twenty two, and he's holding a little blanket and I'm like, hmm.
My helper radar is already pinging, like where's this young
kid going? At ten thirty at night? And I was

(07:08):
going back to my apartment. I was coming from therapy,
and so I started chattinghim up on the train, and
I was like, oh, where are you going? He said, Oh,
my name is Billy blah blah blah. He's like, I
was hired to drive a car from Long Island to
Indiana and then they just canceled the gig. So I go,
so where are you going? He's like, I'm going. I'm
going to you know, Penn Station. I go, where are
you going to sleep? He's like Pound Station. I was like, no,

(07:31):
you're not building. Have you ever been to Penn State?
Keep him on. This is the late eighties. The city
was rough still. I was like, you've ever been to
Pend Station? Dude? You can't sleep there. He's like, well,
I don't know anybody in New York. I'm like, yeah,
you do? You know me? You let him upstate with you? Yes?
I did. I took a perfect stranger that I knew
for exactly one hour, brought him to my apartment with
my female roommate, and it was a studio rent did

(07:53):
it all?

Speaker 3 (07:53):
How did it pan out?

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Oh? Fine? Of course? I mean he left without incident
the next day. And the point is you guys, watching
and listening to you, you may not have done that extreme,
but we all have Billy's stories. Which is where we
feel overly responsible for people we don't even efen know.
Why is that well, because it's an illusion of control. Right,
here's the illusion. I couldn't stand the idea that this

(08:17):
boy in my mind, which is ironic because I was
probably three years older than him, was going to be
in what I considered a dangerous or precarious situation. And
we are the helpers, the healers, we're the ones, we're
the ones. We can't let it slip through the crack,
even someone we don't know. And here's the thing. I
didn't stop and think and go, hmmm, does that make sense?

(08:38):
Is this even my shit to solve? Like is this
even my problem? It was a knee jerk reaction. So
the thing with high function codependency in these and I'm
going to go through the behaviors so people can't get
into it and understand if it's them we're talking about.
These are things we're sort of doing compulsively, like I'm
not thinking. I wasn't thinking before, not at all, and

(09:01):
it never entered my mind. It wasn't the right thing
to do, though, I mean till way later, even when
I came home, freached yourself out way later. We later,
I well, of course, and once I started, once I
had kids, I was like, that was insane. Why would
you do that? So the behaviors we want to look
out for auto advice giving, Okay.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
So I kind of explain that a little bit, so
always got the right answer always here. Because another thing,
and I'm not trying to diverge, just when to make
sure I say this is when you are a high
function codependent, you are so afraid of that other person's
cookie crumbling and their life falling apart.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
But what you don't know.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Is like that is so self righteous of you to
think that you know it's best for them, and that
them falling apart isn't exactly what they needed. So they
could hit that level and actually gain the lessons they
need and go on the journey they need that they
wouldn't have done if.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
They hadn't hit that level. I think about that all
the time.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yes, but it takes so long to get to that
because here's the thing.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
So then you have to let people be.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
That's the thing. We have to let the ships fall
where they may when they're not your mother f and chips.
But that's the hard that's the hard. Part. So the
auto advice giving this can look like two things. It
can look like someone coming to you and just saying, oh, hey,
I decided I'm going to go here for vacation. You
being like, oh, make sure you stop there as well.
This place was amazing. You're going to love that. I
know people, I actually have a great real estate, but

(10:20):
like I have a great travel agent for you, I
where we just can't stop. So that's someone who hasn't
even asked us for our input. They literally just said
I'm going on vacation. We were like planning their itinerary.
So there's that. And then you have the people who
come to you because you are a healer and a
helper and a fixer, who are like, she's definitely going
to tell me what to do. Can't wait, And they say, hey,

(10:42):
I have this problem, and you immediately jump in with
your ideas, your thoughts. The people you can hook them
up with the book that you've already underlined for them,
the course that you're going to purchase for them, all
the things that we do. But let's talk about the cost.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
So wait, what is that one?

Speaker 2 (10:56):
When they time to you, that's also advice givings and it's.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
As part of auto advice giving. It really is, because
you have the spiritual advice yes and no wisdom.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Here's the thing, though, they could come to you and say,
even if they're asking for your opinion, the most loving
thing to do before you ever tell anyone what you
think is to say, first of all, what do you think?

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Instead of like, instead of going to that people, please
do let me fix it right away. So just fire
off some advice for you, But what do you think?

Speaker 3 (11:28):
Because they actually know.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
For themselves, and even if they don't, it's okay, right,
you can say what do you think you should do?
Because your gun instinct is good because nobody knows more
than you what you should do in this situation. And
even if you don't know, I will be with you
in the foxhole of your not knowing. That's love, that's

(11:50):
a wisdom, right. But not fixing it, you see, fixing
is what we do for us. I'm uncomfortable with your
uncomfortable feelings. I'm gonna fix it so I feel better.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Uh huh right, love, Yes, tell you, oh, same until
you hit me like a ton of break, but same, same.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
And how do I recognize you? Because I was you?
I was you. Because we're so big hearted, we're empathic,
we're highly sensitive people. Listen, anyone who's watching this or
listening to this and is feeling like, oh my god,
this is me? Is this terrible? It's not terrible. We
are good people. We are lovers, we are mothers, we

(12:28):
are partners. We want to be the best friends and
the best sisters. We want to do it all right,
and we want to control it all And it's the
most loving thing in the world to give that up
and to let the chips fall where they may, as
I said, when they're not your mother f and chips
and that can be difficult to see. So we have
auto advice giving, which I'm going to tell you what

(12:50):
to do instead, Right, what are we going to do? Instead?
We're going to ask expansive questions. Tell me more about that.
If you did know the answer, what would it be?

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Just take a gain, Yes, let them figure out for themselves. Yeah,
because they might be going down a totally different road
than you would have taken them on with your advice.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Exactly what you're personal Yeah, right, because fixing is not
the same as compassionately witnessing or loving.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
Oh god, you have to be so wise to act
like this. Okay, yes you have to be so aware.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
You do, Yes, you do, you do. But the thing is,
we get super aware. And I walk you through this
in the book of like our activation points. I'm not
going to say triggers just because that shit is so
overused and it's so boring, Like unless you're talking about
real trauma capital t then it's okay to say triggers.
But I don't love the whole thing that, like everything
is triggering people all the time, but we get activated

(13:44):
activated right where I'm a little tense, my heart is
beating a little, I'm a little worried about what you
are aren't going to do. That's about us, right, So
we need to understand that about us and have compassion
for why we are. And I walk you through this.
I walk you through your HFC blueprint. So your high
functioning codependency blueprint is a relational blueprint, which is like,

(14:08):
why do we relate in our relationships the way that
we do, Why do we relate to the world. Why
do we feel this over responsibility for all the people
and all the things. Why do we look at people
as projects to be managed in problems to be solved.
There's reasons why.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
So do you think people actually walk into relationship as
to whole healed humans, Andre like, we're going to be
partner up. I mean, that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
I don't know that they walk in that way.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
You're too older to be able to get to that.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
I think so. But I do believe that it's possible
to have a healthy relationship because what I walk you
through in the book is we go from codependency to
enter dependency in our relationships, which is a healthy dependency.
There is such thing. That's what a healthy relationship is.
So back to the behaviors. Auto accommodating is the next behavior,

(15:13):
so where we just are constantly twisting ourselves up in
a press so we're lighting ourselves on fire to keep
other people warm. I don't want you to be inconvenienced.
Although yep, car broke down, don't worry. Take the other car.
All uber school like, we just can't wait to just
auto accommodate again because we're always anticipating where there might
be a problem that we can make not be a problem.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
Is it also because ultimately need people to love us,
so we're going to make sure these behaviors part of
that going back to because I need you to love me,
so I'm going to do these behaviors.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
It's a combination of I wouldn't only just say it
that way. I would say, we don't want to be
rejected fear of making other people mad. And what does
that mean? We don't want to get kicked out of
the tribe? Yeah, right, so yes, is it ultimately yes,
valuable and we don't want to be left. We don't
be left, It's true. I mean there is abandonment stuff
there too. We also can't take it when we feel

(16:09):
like things are out of control. So what people don't
talk about with any kind of codependency is that it
is an overt or covert bid to control other people's outcomes.
I mean it just is overt. It's an overt or
covert meaning it's an obvious grab for control, or it's
like a stealthy not grab for control. Yes, where it's like, oh,

(16:33):
wouldn't it be better if did this, Like if not
really saying truthfully how you feel about it, but guiding
something this way, omitting information if it's going to make
somebody mad, finding a way to you know, the next
one from auto accommodating which is kind of in the moment.
Then we have the planning where you're proactively, like planning

(16:55):
for the future when you know you're going to be
with somebody difficult.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
Oh, you're prepping.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
You're prepping, okay, like how you're going to behave and
how you're not going to have. So Uncle Bob is
coming to the party, and so is Uncle Jim and
they hate each other. So Uncle Bob is always the troublemaker.
So I'm going to make sure he doesn't sit near him,
and I'll make sure you get the booze that he likes,
so that won't be a problem. So instead of just
saying to Uncle Bob, either act like a normal person
or don't come to the party, we do this. We
do this anticipatory as planning.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
Don't we all do that? I mean, even though you're
so healed, do you still do that?

Speaker 1 (17:26):
If you're going to have a family function you knew
there were some problems, would you would you not prep
for it even though you know the truth.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
What's interesting is for me, at this point in my
life and at this point in my recovery, I would
have already told Uncle Bob to get a shit together
or he's not coming to the party like lovingly, but
I would have been like, if you don't want to,
I'm not doing this thing. So if you don't want
to see Uncle Jim, you're both coming. And it is
your right to not come, right, and I respect that right.

(17:57):
But I'm not going to be a referee at my
own party when I have things that I have to
be doing good and i'd like to make a simple
request that you get your shit together. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Maybe I wouldn't say it just like that, but yes,
you get the point. But anticipatory planning, all of these
things that we're talking about take up so much bandwidth
they do, it's exhausting. We're also overfunctioning so now, and
this is a very common dynamic and codependent relationships, the
overfunctioning and the underfunctioning. And I used to say, because

(18:30):
it's true that in my twenties I could take a
perfectly capable man and turn him into an underfunctioner and
let two weeks or less, two weeks or less by
just being like, I got it. You just handle everything
I have on back, don't worry, so everything's fine. I
got it. Just so much of I got it you
get to a point where people are like, Okay, just

(18:50):
got it. Who cares? Like, I'm so over arguing because
another element of high functioning codependency is being bad receivers.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Oh okay, now I think a lot of women are
gonna have to shake that one off a little bit
because that's so true.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Right, Yeah, like we're not that great, So let's talk about.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
It a lot areas on her relationship too, Yeah, and
all relationships.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, it's not just even your romantic relationships. We're talking
about how hard it can be to let other people
and this is very difficult when you run a business.
How many of the women who take my courses, especially
on high function codependency and join my because I have
a whole community now on this are exhausted because they
have these in messed relationships with the people who work

(19:35):
for them.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
Okay, so like how so what would that play out to?

Speaker 2 (19:39):
Look Like? We're like, you're overly involved in your assistance
bad divorce.

Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, like you're weighing in all the time, you.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Weigh in, and then she's calling you on the weekend
about it, she's crying, she's in an emergency situation.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
You're too deep in so now if anything goes wrong
with work, now you're kind of screwed across the board
because completely so intertwined.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Exactly because you don't have professional and personal boundaries place
protecting your business or protecting your peace of mind.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
And I feel like I have fallen victim to that
in so many areas in my life so long that finally,
at forty one, I'm just now realizing, Okay, boundaries with people,
you cannot let it all spaghetti over except for a
few that you like, really know are your core core,
but like you do have to keep because if it
goes south, you're screwed.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
Everybody's screwed.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yes. And the thing is, if you don't have good
boundaries at work, it's same thing like being a psychotherapist.
If you don't have good boundaries with your clients, under
the guise of being nice or trying to overgive, you're
just being a bad therapist. Right. It's not good for
your clients to do that, and it's not good for subordinates,
for people who work for you, for you to have

(20:44):
this enmeshed relationship with them, it's confusing. They're like, are
we friends? Well not really, because you're like my boss
and you're actually paying my you know you're paying me.
This is my livelihood. It's very confusing, but I've seen
it over and over again. Of these blurred boundaries is
personal and professional again because so much of the time
when you're an HFC, you're an mpath so you feel

(21:08):
your assistance pain. Yeah, you care for people. You want
her to be happy. And yet this is where we
need to learn what is my side of the street
and what is their side of the tree. And that's hard,
but it's so important, and the over and underfunctioning. I
just want to go back to that for one second.

(21:29):
This creates a lot of resentment for us because now
we're like exhausted, we're burnt, we're just bleeding energy. And
then we're like, ugh, Betty is so entitled, But we.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Gave her that ability to hold that kind of power
in space.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
And here's the thing. Is Betty entitled? Or am I
just serving myself up on a silver platter and blaming Betty?

Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, because she's doing her that correct.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
And maybe she believes what I'm saying. Maybe she believes
that I'm fine with it when I say I got
it right. Problem, why I say that if it's not.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
True, and so many people are just operating out of
trauma responses that I feel like it actually becomes their
whole personality, you know when you especially, I've noticed this.
Everyone has little T trauma, like you say, but like
if you were born into big T trauma, like and
I do believe everyone eventually gets big T trauma, But like,
if you start off with big T trauma and that
is your entrance into the world, you don't really realize

(22:28):
that life isn't always traumatic and that you develop these
skill sets and the survival mechanism that then kind of
becomes your personality.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, but it's yes, But what's interesting about this with
trauma response? Think about one of the telltale signs is
being hypervigilant right about danger and about whatever. But when
you think about being in HFC, we are always hypervigilant.
We're always aware of what's going on in this room.
I know exactly where everyone is in this room. I
know exactly what you look like, what you look like,

(22:56):
what who's doing what like even right now? And if
if it's this is part of the skill set that
becomes your superpower when you get into recovery. Right for
being a high functioning codependent, which I'll walk you through
in the book, and one next right action at a time.
Then these things really become a superpower when we're doing

(23:16):
it to control people in our environment, when we're doing
it to control the outcome for other people, when we're
inserting ourselves as the answer to all other people's problems.
I mean, think about what we're really doing, and how painful.
For me this was a very humbling part of the realization.

(23:37):
And this was in my twenties, and this is when
this whole concept came to me. And it took decades
to write about it because I needed to see it
over and over and over again, like tens of thousands
and hypothesis exactly and teach it for years to really
see what is the truth about this behavior. But the
end of the end for me was I couldn't believe

(23:58):
how I really thought that my motivation was love only.
I really thought I was like mother Terisa, like that
I just loved people. I just cared about people, and
I do love people and care about people. But it
wasn't that pure because what came out this was all
around a situation that my sister was in, an abusive

(24:18):
situation that she was in that I was trying to
take on so badly and trying to get her to leave.
It was like five alarm fire for me every day
in my life, just being like what else can I
throw at this situation to make it, to make her leave,
you know.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
To get this outcome correct exactly.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
To get because it was so distracting and it was
so distressing and my therapist I was crying and it
was like, what am I going to do? I've done
everything that I can. And she said, Terry, let me
ask you something. What makes you think you know what
Jenna needs to learn in this life?

Speaker 1 (24:53):
And people could say, well, it's because these are you know,
these are moral codes. There's like the Golden rules, Like
there's like, you know, you can find proof of laws
and rules you're supposed to follow, but ultimately that's not it.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Well, she was basically saying you don't know. And I
first resisted and was like, well, I think we can
agree she doesn't need to do it in a house
in the woods with a crack addict who is abusive
and no running water. I mean, I feel like can
we agree to that? And she was like no, because Sarah,
I'm not God.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
Is what she needs.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, but how do you know when someone's actually in
a bad situation that that's where they're supposed to be.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Well, the thing is, it's their situation. So I had
done everything I could to get her out, you know,
and I in the end, my therapist help me see
that what I need. So I didn't even know I
had to choice, is my point. Okay, I thought I
was doing what I must do as a good sister,
which was to never quit. And she was like, that's

(25:52):
not necessarily what you need to do, she said, but
you can draw boundaries. You don't need to let her
talk to you about this, And that's what I did.
So she helped me walk me through. This is the
beginning of my whole boundary journey right where I walked
me through and I was able to say to her, Lissa,
I love you, and if you ever want to get out,
I will always be your person, right because that's normal.

(26:15):
I can help her in a normal way, not taking
over the whole thing. But I also can't you know,
I can't have you talking to me about this guy
every day. It's so painful for me. And she said,
I totally understand. I love you too, and maybe we
talked about twice in nine months, and we've been talking
quite a bit. And then she called me up and said,
are you're still my person? And I was like putting
on my sneakers right now, jumped in my car, went

(26:38):
and got her. She got back into school, she got sober.
And here's the most important thing is that instead of
Terry being the hero of Jenna's story, Jenna is the
hero of her own story.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
You know, that's hard to wait for someone to be
their own hero.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Why do we think that we have the Why do
we think we should be the hero?

Speaker 3 (27:02):
Why it want to be like? Why do we come
in like that?

Speaker 2 (27:06):
It's not I don't think it's a conscious thing about
wanting to be the hero, right. I think it's that
it's a knee jerk reaction to their pain. And we
are so allergic to other people's pain that we just
needed to stop right now.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
Why are we so allergic? Because it our traumas?

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, and it's control, it's control, it's we don't like
the way it makes us feel. And so so much
of what I're walking through in this book is we
can learn to tolerate the way that we feel, and
that it's very loving to tolerate the way that we feel.
And even if, even if people listening, if the only
thing you changed from listening to this interview is that

(27:44):
instead of auto advice giving, you start asking expansive questions
in your relationships, your life will change. Your relationships will
change because when we control everything, people don't really know us, right,
because we don't want to be vulnerable. So the lack
of receiving, the lack of allowing, the lack of surrender,

(28:07):
because that's really what's on the other side of recovery
from being an HFC is surrendering in the most expansive
and beautiful and delicious way, like a whole different way
of living. When you just go, that's not for me
to control. I'm going to pour my time and energy

(28:28):
into nourishing myself. I call it self consideration because it's
so much more than like self care, which sounds like
a manicure, you know, or self love, which is even
more and more Nobody even knows what that is. So
self consideration is something that we can actually look at
and go, what is self consideration? Do I have the

(28:48):
bandwidth to help this person who just asked me if
the answer is no, then I'm going to say.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
No, do I have the bandwidth to help this person?
Because people are going to come in all the time.
But it's like you have to weigh it out, like, yes,
it's not everyone is yours to save. If it's rejection
in your body, if you're not feeling a full body, yes, right,
then it's a no.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Yes. And because we're human beings and relationships with other
human beings, there's gonna be plenty of times with family
and partners and husbands and whoever. Of course, we're still
gonna do shit we don't want to do, because that's
called being a human being on planet Earth. But if
we're doing it consciously. When my husband wants to get
tickets to go see the opera, let's say, because he

(29:29):
loves all that shit and I hate it, I go,
not the Grand Old Opera, the actual opera. And I
don't hate it. I just don't. It's not my thing.
But he loves it. So I make a conscious choice
to go, get dressed up, have a great time. I
never make him feel bad about it. I always he
will not listen to this, I imagine, but he always
thinks I had a great time, and I do that

(29:50):
because that's a conscious choice. His happiness matters to me,
and he does the same for me on a million things.
So I think part of what we're talking about is
how do we move into making these decisions, whatever they are,
mindfully and consciously. And the first thing we have to
do is just slow down a breathing. Just so hard

(30:13):
to slow down taking a breath, but you can do it.
It's about having a meditation practice. I've been teaching meditation
for years. I've got a million pre things on inside timer.
It's like I've been doing meditation for twenty years and
I've been teaching it for fifteen. Like anybody, if I
could learn to meditate, and I was a total type
a psycho, anybody can trust me. I really tried to

(30:38):
get the hack. I was like, there's it's gotta be
a weekend thing I could do. No, that wasn't It
should be years to exactly. So, we want to slow down,
we want to breathe, and we want to really make

(30:58):
decisions from a mindful place. Because it doesn't mean we
can't compromise. Of course we will, but it's not our
knee jerk reaction is not to we don't want it
to be to self abandon right. We don't want to
say yes when we want to say no, right under
this guise of like being nice, because we all know

(31:18):
that shit isn't nice. That is misleading. It's giving the
people in our lives corrupted information about who we are.
And then we're like, I feel so lonely even in relationships.
So I wonder why there's like an existential crisis that
comes if you do this for long enough, where we've
taken so many for the team that the team doesn't

(31:40):
even know who we are. And it's sad when you've
checked all the boxes that society told us to check
and make you feel unsatisfied in your fifties and your sixties.
And this is what I see in my office all
the time, really, because.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
These women just sacrifice and sacrifice and sacrifice so they
can keep this thing going that they've built. That they
don't even know who they are in the picture, that
they don't even know the role they're playing or they
know the role they're playing with. They don't know who
they actually are.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Right, and the role yes, and they feel that their
value is commensurate to their contribution, right, like being utilitarian,
what have I done for and there's always someone who
needs something more than us. And I feel like the
you know, having a kid, wanting to be a good
role model for your child, It's like, we have to

(32:32):
have our self consideration has to be at the top
of our list. It has to be yeah, because nobody
else can do it. And again, it doesn't mean that
we won't do all so many of the things that
we're doing, but we're just going to do them differently.
We're going to do them as a mindful choice and
not as a reaction. Because if it's a compulsion, because

(32:55):
people are like Terry, I'm just nice, what's wrong with
being nice? And I'm like, dude, if you can't not
do it, you're not being nice. That's a compulsion. That's
a compulsion like any other compulsion. So I think we
have to really look at our behavior not from the
negative point of view, from the point of view of like,

(33:15):
how do I want to feel? And is what I'm
doing going to get me to feel the way that
I want to feel. Because we all want to be seen, Yep,
we all want to be heard. We all want to
be known, and ultimately, what you think, how you feel,
and what you want matters, but it has to matter

(33:37):
to you more than what anyone else wants, thinks, or feels.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
And that's literally putting yourself first.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
It is, And we've been just indoctrinated into this belief
that that makes you selfish and mean and full of
yourself and have a big head and all this other
crap and what we're really talking about, because you know
how it is when you're frazzled, When you're frazzled, when
you're running out of steam, when you're your bandwidth is down.
How nice are you to your husband? You're a little short,

(34:05):
You're not that nice. How nice are you to your kids?
Not that nice? Everyone's getting on your nerves right Just
it's like we're low key just waiting to start a
fight with anyone. It could be the person online or
traders could be like, yes, driving in traffic, don't cut
me off, buddy, even try. It's dangerous today. But you see,
it's it has a cumulative effect where all of this

(34:26):
self sacrifice under the guys of being nice ultimately is
not that nice.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, it is so interesting, and it's I finally, I
still struggle. I know these things, but I still find
myself struggling with them all the time because I feel
like the more you learn, then your mistakes get higher,
Like then you get a harder challenge the next time.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Do you taill that?

Speaker 3 (34:50):
And did you finish telling the five different ones?

Speaker 2 (34:53):
You have? The So we have the auto advice givings
of auto accommodating, we have anticipatory planning, we have over
and underfunctioning, and then we have what was the last
one we were talking about. I think it's just doing
stuff for people that they can and should be doing
for themselves. Yeah, and that's with kids too.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
I was high function codepen. It was funny and I
still am to this.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
I realized it because I want her to be happy
so badly, and I want her to have so much
joy in her life so much that I'm always like
scanning the situation, like what needs to happen so she
has the best day, like, and not that that's bad,
but it's also like, Okay, I don't have to like
alter things.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Life can be life.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
You know, she can experience what she needs experience and
let me try to control it so it tilts.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Happy exactly, because what ends up happening is that life
is a mixture of happy and sad and exquisite and horrible. Right,
this is life. Now, I'm not saying with little kids
we want them to have horrible experiences. We don't. But
in order for them to be prepared for life, we

(35:58):
want to give them deductive reasoning skills. We want them
to have critical thinking skills. So even with Sonny, just
start asking the questions. You can still guide and protect,
but start asking the questions. Listen more than you talk.
What did you think? Oh, so that happened with your friend?
So what did you think? What do you think you

(36:20):
should have done? Or what do you think you should do? Now? Like,
just don't talk. Kids will tell us, you know, and
we can guide too. Well, well, I think I should
punch her in the face. Well let's think about that.
Let's actually think that through. So if you punch her
in the face, then what would your teacher say? What

(36:41):
would your principals say? And then you know what I mean, Like,
even if it's something kind of outrageous, he tells you
so much about what the kid is thinking. But we're
teaching them as we go, as we walk them through.
And I feel like so much with parenting nowadays, especially
is exactly what you're saying, Like, we don't want kids
to suffer at all. We want to make sure but

(37:01):
that's again, that's about us. That's not what's best for them.
But you know, Carolyn, that's why you brought it up.
I mean, you know, right, we need to be looking
at it from a point of viewer. Am I getting
them ready for life in some way? Or do I
just want the joy of them being joyful right now? Right?
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (37:20):
You have to like literally this work that you did
in your book Too Much, which is out and it's
so good, the knowledge you have gained though the work
you have put into this. It is just such a
resource to be able to have you speak about this
and have this in a book form. Because even as
you're telling me this and I know this, and I've
like it's gone through my brain like it's every time
I hear it, it's like it opens something else up,

(37:41):
you know, because I've been living for thirty plus years
the other way.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
Yes, you know, to retrain yourself.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
So how do you retrain yourself to actually turn all
these h high functioning traits into things that will benefit us?

Speaker 3 (37:55):
How do you retrain it?

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Well? Part of it is the awareness piece. So the
way that I will key through it in the book,
the first half of the book is all going in
before we go out, because this is this is where
it is, right, It's all what is our internal experience?
What is our HFC blueprint, which is a relational blueprint,
So it tells us how life is supposed to be.

(38:18):
How are you supposed to relate to your partner, How
are we supposed to relate to friends, family, church, or organizations,
whatever it is. So we all have a different story exactly.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
How you're born, what your circumstanced.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Country, culture, trauma, family of origin, religio Religion plays a
huge role in this too, So you're going to yourself
look and go, oh, here's my relational blueprint. Now I
have something to work with. So this whole book is
the same way that I wrote Boundary Boss, which is
that there's no one size fits all when it comes

(38:49):
to boundaries, and there's no one size fits all when
it comes to the right way to relate to others. Right,
there isn't I in the book. It's written it's called
back to you. Right, So I introduced the concept and
then I immediately say back to you, and there's like
four questions. I'll be like, right now, think about X,
Y and Z whatever it is. Because the truth is
listen anyone reading this book. All of us read books

(39:13):
on self help because we're like, how is the benefiting?
Like I would like to put this in place right now, please.
So that's the way the book is written, so that
there's hopefully early satisfaction where you're like, Okay, I can
see how this is going to change my life. I
start though, with you doing a resentment inventory.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
A resentment inventory?

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, oh how do you do that? Well?

Speaker 3 (39:34):
How does that want start?

Speaker 2 (39:35):
It's kind of exactly what you think where we all
know right now, you know, I know who who were
feeling resentmentords even when you're really healthy, I've been doing that.
I've had thirty five years of therapy and I've been
a therapist for twenty seven. So here's the reality that
you still will nobody's perfect, right, We're still going to
have these human experiences. So then you start to write

(39:56):
down this is the person, so probably the top people
in your life life could be people that you work with.
Write down who it is and write down what do
you resemble about, And then we're writing down, how what
is my fifty percent of this interaction?

Speaker 3 (40:08):
There's the key, what is my part of this?

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yep?

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Because we know why we're mad at them or know
I would resent them. Yep, you know what they're doing wrong.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
And then when you go, oh, my fifty percent is
my husband has been being late to something repeatedly and
either I haven't said anything or I haven't mentioned it
again or whatever the thing is, we look at it
and go okay, because we need some kind of an
action that we can take what needs to happen for
us to feel that like honor that resentment because walking

(40:38):
around resentful also sucks up so much bandwidth. Yeah, it's
like exhausting it, does you know?

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (40:45):
And so then we just slowly, maturely, we use this
resentment inventory as GPS for you to find what relationships
in your life need your attention most urgently. Okay, So
that's like one of the first things that we do.
Then we're also going to do a whole list of
what are you tolerating?

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Okay in what way? What are you tolerating in what way?

Speaker 2 (41:09):
In every way?

Speaker 3 (41:10):
How do you even know where to start?

Speaker 2 (41:11):
Well, I walk you through it, so it could be
at all areas of your life we list, and it
could be you know, even your home. Let's just say
in your home, maybe you have a light in your
office that you hate. Maybe it's like an overhead light
that's really caustic and you don't love it and every
time you flip it on it like bothers you you're

(41:33):
tolerating that light and you could change that light. So
part of the reason why we do the what are
you tolerating is because this also dials us into how
much self consideration we're really living with? Right? What are
we putting up with? Where? And why? Right? Because there's
so much of it we could change totally. We just

(41:53):
don't like a lot of those things that you'll discover
on the one am I tolerating? Lists?

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Maybe just keep a running list and like when you
find a sticky spot, you're like, oh, like let me
look into.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
This, Yeah, what is this feeling?

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Or let me tell the truth? Let me tell the truth.
How about that.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
There's like layers to get to the truth.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
So sometimes you just like peel off some jackets before
you finally get to the truth.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
That's so crivered up and we're so taught to not
yeah right, I don't need to tell you.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
I mean I'm from the Northeast, so we're a little
less than you people. But yeah, where it's like blessed,
it's art. You're like, oh, you don't like that person?
Why you're saying that? I mean I literally wrote about
that in Boundary Box, about how in the South it
is like an art form of not saying what you're saying,

(42:41):
I know, doing it so beautifully.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
I know, confusing pleasantly and all with a smile on
your face, handing your sweet tea, you know, and you're like,
what does happened?

Speaker 2 (42:52):
At least in New York or Jersey someone's saying thank you,
they'll actually just say ok you, which I appreciate. I'm
all down for. I can still work with you. If
we don't like to try, that's okay. Yeah, at least
I know where I stand. You know what you stand.
We're in good shape.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
When did you have your aha moment where you're like,
wait a minute, this is this? Is it?

Speaker 3 (43:22):
Like this is what I'm dealing with?

Speaker 1 (43:23):
And then has that been your main focus with your
therapy sessions and with all of your work? Is it
mainly high function codependency.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
I mean it kind of is, because it's such a.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Huge thing that is a it's a revelation, it's a
revolutionary in your own life when it clicks in.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yes, I mean your your life is a perfect example
of something where you literally said, I do believe it
might be in that book.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
I have a guest ap here as a here my
name is Kindra maybe maybe which but talking about yeah,
feeling like you were in the iron mask.

Speaker 3 (43:56):
I felt like I was on an iron mask.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
For all of life and that the realization was like
a key and you can't even believe that you like
had the key, and I feel like you were so
not alone in that. And for me, I had a
similar realization with my situation with my sister yeah, oh yeah,
where I didn't realize I had a choice, right, I
literally didn't. I thought to only be a good sister,

(44:20):
I could only never give up and just be a
bloody pope on the ground and keep going like there's
another thing, Maybe there's one more thing I could try
to do to get her out of there. As opposed
to being let off the hook by my therapist because
she's like Terry, it's not that you shouldn't save your sister.
It's that you can't, like it's actually not possible. It's

(44:43):
so hard, It.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
Is so, so so hard to learn.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
So I had some friends go through a divorce and
it like wrecked my world because it was messing up
my world and it wasn't going down the way I
needed it to go down, and I like super inserted
myself into the situation and it was not my place.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
To do that.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
And I really did have to like learn this lesson
because you think I'm a best friend. I'm a friend.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
I care. I'm supposed to like get in there. You're not.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
No who knew. But what you can do instead is
learn to sit with your discomfort.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
I was so uncom I mean, I'm finally just now
accepting it, but it was it was.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
So But how funny is that it's someone else's divorce.
You literally just said, I'm finally just out accepting it.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
Finally exactly my feelings.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
I know.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
And Terry, I thought I had like elevated to this
next level of understanding and like had gotten this wisdom.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
Oh no, just got a bigger trigger.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Trigger got a bigger rub, and I was like, oh gosh,
I'm going back down to ground zero.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
I got to start over on learning this.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
No, no, no, no, let's refrain, because here's the thing.
Every level of your evolution that you get to, you
will be challenged. And so what happened is you got
to another level of your evolution. You really did through
your realizations, through your understanding of self, through your understanding
of your relational patterns. This threw you for a loop

(46:04):
because they were close friends, and because the part of
you that has been conditioned to feel like, be loyal,
don't give up on people, like listen, your heart is
in the right place to end. It's not your side
of the street, I know, and it's okay to say, like,
let's talk about what we can do instead?

Speaker 3 (46:22):
What would we do? What's the correct way to handle
that situation?

Speaker 2 (46:25):
I mean, part of it is to you ask the
people in your life, how can I best support you
right now? What would feel? And be supportive? Let people
tell you instead of projecting your own fears. All of
us do it. But when that really changed my life,
when I started asking people how can I best support
you right now? From my husband, to my sons to whomever,

(46:49):
I stopped having a guess. And I also stopped interjecting
or like sticking myself in the middle of it, of
how I would want because this is that we love
people the way we want them to love us, and
we come out and we know this. We treat people
the way we want them to treat us, so it's
not necessarily the way that what they need. So your
friend might have said, I need you to let me

(47:10):
vent complain and cry about it and stop giving me suggestions.
I don't need them. I'm not taking them. I'm gonna
figure it out. This is my divorce, this is my life.
I will figure it out. And this is a lot
of the scripts that I share in the book, too,
is how do we tell people? How do we change ourselves?
And then how do we tell people? If you have

(47:32):
a friend, because I feel like HFC is traveling pacts.
If you have a friend who is auto advice giving
to you and it doesn't feel good and you don't
want it, you learn to say, hey, listen, I know
that I've come to you in the past a lot
for advice, but right now I'm really trying to really
develop my own ability to decide. So I'm going to
talk about something, but I'm not looking for any input,

(47:54):
So can you just be compassionate and just let me
vent or let me talk about it without you giving
me your two We can ask for what we need.
We're so busy trying to control other things though when
we're actively HFC that we're not very good at asking
for what we need because we're all like, I'm fine,
it's good, it's all good. You're like, that's not life.

(48:17):
It's not all good. It's not all good.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
And say, like, M with a friendship, you just decide
that you don't align on like whatever, like it's not
my life to live. But say we didn't align, it
didn't go the way I wanted to do. Is there
a time where it's good to give space and just
be like, hey, I love you, but I know you
got to go in your journey and I go on mine,
And like you'd stop interjecting is that called for? Because
I feel like sometimes we think we got to stay, stay, stay,
when really it's not.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Yeah, it's not the right thing.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, well you're What you're actually asking is can we
grow friendships? And the answer is of course. And how
much of the time do we have friendships that I
call historical handcuffs where we're just we got all this history,
we're like kind of like family. I feel like I
got to be in this thing forever. And if it's
a distant one and you don't see them a lot, fine,
who cares. But I really feel like it's important that

(49:06):
whoever's in your VIP section VIP right, whoever has access
to your most tender heart, these have to be people
who are emotionally trustworthy. They have to be people who
add value to your life, not just our obligations. And
I realized in my late twenties going into my early thirties,
when I started doing all these change, all this work

(49:26):
and all these changes, that like I had these obligatory
relationships that I kept going. I was literally the one
keeping these friendships that were not satisfying to me going
because I was so dutiful and I felt so obligated
and guilty about everything. My therapist was like, how about
you just stop getting in touch with that person. Let's

(49:46):
see what happens. I can't even tell you how many
how many? Yeah, Like, no big fanfare.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
It's not a big deal to be we don't need to.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Have a breakup conversation. And maybe we do. But the
thing is She's like, why do you keep calling that person?
You don't really want to be friends with them anymore?
And I was like, I have no idea. And when
I stopped a lot of that, it just naturally came
to its conclusion. So I feel like that's possible too.
And then sometimes we need to also if people become toxic,
if they're addicted, if they're addicted to drama, whatever the

(50:17):
thing is, sometimes we have to take space from friendships too,
and that's okay as well. So I really have to say, though,
I as a therapist, I've seen female friendships be as
complicated or more so than romantic relationships. The number of
women when I go speaking gigs around the country, around

(50:37):
the world, the number of women who say to me,
oh my god, I'm in this relationship, this friendship, and
I just have to break it off. And I'm like,
have you had a conversation like no, no, no, she's
not somebody you could talk to. I'm like, dude, trust me,
if you don't do it with this person, there's going
to be another person. Because our healing is in the
asserting of ourselves.

Speaker 3 (50:59):
Been the breaking of the path, yes.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
And telling the truth like hey, this friendship hasn't been
healthy for a long time. I love you, I'll always
value what we've had, and I think it's time we
go our own separate ways.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
And then moving forward in your relationships of being just
an honest, upfront person and not sacrificing yourself to try
to guess what this person needs from you. Like that,
I feel like, how has your life changed since you
have become so aware of this?

Speaker 3 (51:26):
And like, how does a life actually change?

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Because I feel like there's probably a season where it's
a little chaotic and you're learning this changing habits, and
you don't probably feel the progress or success of it
yet probably takes a while to catch up when you
finally are living in recovery.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
How does your life change?

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Well, what you're describing first is what I call the
in between. Yeah, we're like, we can't just mindlessly do
the old shit because it doesn't work and we know
too much. We haven't yet mastered the new shit, so
we're sort of like, well, I got no skills, I
don't know what's happening, but I know this isn't right right,
and I know I can't insert myself and I know
I have to go back and tell this person. I'm

(52:03):
going back on my word because I don't. I do
not have the bandwidth to do this or whatever it is.
And all those things will make you uncomfortable when you
get on the other side, and you will. But it
is a discipline. It's just like anyone who's in recovery,
where it's a daily discipline, you will have so much
more enner piece. And this is really what we want.

(52:24):
We just want to put our heads down at night
and feel like, you know what I did enough today,
I am enough, Everything's okay, get a good night's sleep
rather than ruminating or worrying about things, and you become known,
like actually known, being a high functioning codependent. What I've
seen in my practice is that it creates a glass

(52:45):
ceiling of our own making in our professional lives and
in our personal lives. Because you can't serve two bosses, right,
the people pleasing boss and the actual authentic cue boss.
You can't do both. There's not enough hours in the
day to do that, right. So I see that there's

(53:08):
this glass ceiling, and we get to a point of dissatisfaction.
A lot of times that happens perimenopause and menopause, where
women just hit a wall where they're like, oh, well,
all those other bullshit that we're dealing with. We're like,
I cannot, can't with all these people and do not
want to. But there's an extreme. The cycle gets extreme
where we give too many f's for too long with

(53:28):
too many people, and then you hit the wall and
you're like, no f's for anybody.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
Right, So you're trying to help people not hit the extremes,
correct identify the sooner so you could start exactly cleaning
it up.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
You don't have to do that, and hey, if you're
there right now, don't worry. There's a way back to
the middle. But in that middle, people know who you
are and all of your original and juicy and beautiful
ideas and your self assertion. Right you're negotiating for your wants, desires, needs,

(54:00):
telling the truth about what your deal breakers are, what
your limits are, what is the shit you are not
putting up with from people?

Speaker 3 (54:06):
And maybe you had to learn it.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Maybe all that HFC high function could hfping paid off
because now you know your limits?

Speaker 2 (54:14):
Yes, very well, Yes, I think listen, we do have
to learn it because what we're doing is that we've
learned in life, how to be right? Our family's of
origin taught us, how are we supposed to be? What
does it mean to be a good woman? What does
it mean to be a good mom and a good
partner and a good friend and a good citizen all
the things? And now because we reveal the downloaded blueprint

(54:37):
or relational blueprint, and we go, oh, you know, I
don't agree with that? Like I don't. That doesn't I
don't think I have to give the shirt off my
back to literally anybody to be a good person. Right,
we have all of these ways, this messaging for women
in particular, especially in the US, of like how we're

(54:57):
supposed to be right? And we you have to decide
do we agree with that? Because I know that you
can be loving and authentic and real and get done
what you want to get done in this life by
not having a disease to please other people. That's what
this book is doing, is curing you from overfunctioning, overgiving, overfeeling,

(55:22):
over controlling, and people pleasing because none of those things
are good for your relationships, your self esteem, or will
get you what you want in life. They just doing system.
Oh my god, forget it. Nervous system is shot when
you're an agfcy.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
I know shot, Okay, and we'll wrap up because honestly,
you're amazing.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
Almost hours, very so incredible.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
You have so much wizom today. But what happens in
your nervous system? Because I used to have chronic nervous
stomach ye all the time, like twenty four hours of
the day. I was constantly nervous. My stomach was always
in a not. I always felt just very very nervous
all the time.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Well, that's typical fight flight freeze, fawn. I mean right there,
this is a reaction to feeling threatened. Right, So, even
if it's quote unquote low key, even though it's not,
because having a not in your stomach all the time
is takes up so much bandwidth, is so exhausting. So
what this does for you is it you learn I

(56:17):
have a whole entire section on emotional self regulation, understanding
our own trigger points, our own activation points, and our relationships.
What are the things that give us a not in
our stomach? And let's deal with those original injuries. I'll
walk you through how to do that understanding your past,
which is why the whole first half of the book
we go in before we go out. This isn't just

(56:39):
about like, so how do I change all my relationships?
This is about how do I actually understand why I
am the way I am? And there's so much more
peace and allowing and you know, there's like magic on
the other side of not thinking. We have to create
reality and control reality all the time.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
So true, man, it's some hard work. But it's like
this has been a theme coming up lately. It's like
you've got to do something and you're going to put
all your energy to it and your life, so you
might as well work on bettering yourself and figuring this
out so you can actually have a more prosperous, peaceful.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
Calm existence. You actually can just breathe and enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Yeah, and all this fearful stuff can be behind you
because if not, as you know, because you lived it
for years. We can live in a state of hyper
vigilance of like making sure everything is okay. But that's
not going to be your most blissful, productive or happy state.

(57:45):
It's just surviving. And we're so past that, like we're
all okay. You know, it's time to thrive and not just.

Speaker 3 (57:53):
Survive too much.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
By Terry Cole I'm so happy to get to talk
to you again tomorrow. Okay, this is not actually this
will be over, but we're doing a panel tomorrow which
I'm so excited with Justice' leg Julie Solomon.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
We're going to talk about this.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
You're kind of on a little book tour. You have
the Miastermind going on. Tell us all the things that
you have going on, because there's a lot happening.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
So many things. I have a Mastermind and actually, if
anyone is interested in joining the new one it starts
in January.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
That will be life changing.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
It's called Flourish, So that's actually really fun. It's a
small group of women where we just spend a year
together working on your life and your business. Usually entrepreneurs
or therapists or helpers.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
But for people who don't understand a mastermind.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
I got into this world by kind of just podcasting
and I met authors who had stuff like this. It's
an incredible asset to be a part of a Mastermind
with someone like you because it's for a year long
where you're checking in with people, you're having conversations, you're
working through stuff, you're talking, you're forming this community.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
It is literally life changing.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
It is, and it's such a special, random, mystical thing
that you just have to like find you, you know,
because it's not like this is just it's a very
experience to have this opportunity to join a mastermind with
you and the women that join these masterminds are so
brilliant too, and working together together and coming together it's
life changing.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
It really does change lives. And also it's for women
who want to do what I'm doing. Yeah, so it's
how do you build a brand? How do you sell
a book or a three book deal for over a
million dollars, which is what I did? How do you
like there's so many How do you start a podcast?
I've had a pod since twenty fifteen. So again it's
a combination of what are the psychological ways that we

(59:32):
get in our own way, so I help you remove
those things. So it's really it really is psychologically informed,
of course because I'm a therapist. And then what are
the structural ways to build a booming business? Because so
much of the time therapists want they're like they want
to go from the one on one practice to either
teaching groups or moving into writing, you know, having more

(59:53):
of a public image, and so light hearted women coming together.
It's actually great. And then we meet two times during
the year in person for three days. So we do
it in Denver, New York. I think Morocco next year,
John join.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
I know, I know, I know, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Honestly, I will definitely keep that on my radar because
I want to join your mastermind. I really do be
so fun, so fun, amazing. Okay, so Mastermind, and then
you're doing The book is out coming out in October. Yep,
we got the books in the car. We're actually gonna
do a little unboxing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Yes we are. O my god, I can't even leave
them first. Look at my books right here, right now.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
This is the perfect place to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
Yes, if people want to get the book, they can
go to hfcbook dot com. And we have tons of
bonuses that come with the book that will always come
with the book. Even though people want to tell you
should not, you should stop giving the bone why you
made the bonuses for the book. Just just go get it.
You're going to love it, love it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
And then Terry Cole Instagram and all the things. Yep, okay,
Terry Cole, You're amazing. I always wrop up with leave
your light. It's a super open ended question. What do
you want people to know that you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Can change your life, Know where you are, no matter
where you've been. It's never too late, you're not too old.
You're right on time.

Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
Then you go get this book too much, and then
you'll really be right on time. The best, Harry, Thank
you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
H