Rugby Direct - Episode 127

This week on Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier review the Super Rugby semi-finals as the Blues and Chiefs advance to Saturday night's decider, at the expense of the Brumbies and top-seeded Hurricanes.

We also chat with Kevin Malloy, the Super Rugby Pacific board chair to review the season and discuss the future shape of the competition.

And with the All Blacks squad days away from being named, we give our respective 32-man squads we think will be named next week.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our Wide Ranger podcast now on iHeartRadio. Yet
inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct with
Elliott Smith, powered by News Talks EDB.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by habit Health, tackling all
your aches and pains from sport and workbook online at
habit dot Health to see a physio and get back
in the game. Faster to Alligott Smith with me as
always Liam Napier from The New Zealand heral big episode
of Rugby Direct coming up for you today. We'll get
into the semifinals and the upcoming final very shortly. We'll

(00:45):
redraft the All Black Squads that we did a few
weeks back, and Kevin Malloyd, who was the board share
of Super Rugby Pacific, is going to join the podcast
as well. It is all go Liam, as it was
over the weekend and we have our final the Blues.
We'll host the Chiefs on Saturday night. The Cane train
has derailed. It's been put out of service. It's like

(01:06):
the Auckland Transport trains just simply don't exist.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
It's tough to take, isn't it real low weekends, wasn't it.
But you know what, it's Monday morning and I've come
in and I've reconciled the fact that at least the
Crusaders are.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
In the final. Mate, you know it's.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Here we're talking more about the Hurricanes.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
You's going to take your blessing.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Sometimes very buoyant. I needn't picked them last week in
the tipping, but you were very boyantce Canes year all
the way through and now what's gone wrong?

Speaker 4 (01:37):
Well, I don't know if that is Zachar.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
I have been waiting for the Canes to fall over
to a degree all season and they have. I don't
take any joy in that. In fact, it was incredibly
punishing to watch that semi final at the weekend. There
was just felt like they choked to a degree. And yeah,
I guess we'll delve into that, but it was a

(01:59):
very very tough watch from a cane's perspective, wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Indeed, we'll get onto that in a minute, but let's
go to the Blues Brumbies first and foremost Friday night
and relatively official from the Blues, they started really strongly
and that was the key for the Rumbies. They needed
to start strongly. They didn't get a good start the Blues.
At one point they could have been on track for
fifty or so. They didn't quite happen. In the end,

(02:22):
Brumbies came back into it, but it was always well
out of their reach after that fast start from the Blues,
who just as said, laid the platform, got points on
the board early and the Brumbies had to play on
the back foot and that's never going to work for
them at Egen Park.

Speaker 4 (02:35):
No it's not.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
And the Blue scored four triers in the first quarter.
Two of those came from botch rees start receptions from
the Brumbies, one from a rolling wall, and the fourth
was a Stephen Peifetter long ball to Caleb Clark in
the corner. So you've got to do the basics where
you must take your kickoff receipts. You can't give the
Blues easy access to your twenty two where they can

(02:57):
get a roll on, get their big boys going forward.
They don't need any league ups or any assistance. So
the game was done after twenty minutes and that was
almost the case, and both semi finals or a degree.
But yeah, the Brumbies they weren't helped by losing James
Slipper and they're starting lock prior to kickoff and I
think they're type five needed those players and they were exposed.

(03:21):
The Blue scrum dominated right throughout the game. And yeah
they had some issues in the third quarter, number of
mistakes inviting the Brumbies back, but there was never ever
a sense the Blues were going to lose that game.
After that start, they were never really threatened. They did
what they had to do and I think the most
pleasing thing for the Blues was there was no sign

(03:42):
of nerves. This is it was a big occasion the
semi final finals. Rugby is difference. The Blues have failed
in the past two seasons in the finals. They got
smashed in christ Church last year. Different opposition, different scene, sure,
but those things can have an effect and for the
Blues to start that well in a semi final, that's
probably what bodes best for them.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
I agreed that the Brumbies talked during the week or
Stephen Larkin about previous time they went Eaton Park when
they got dusted by forty to fifty. They learned a
lot about the contact area and various things. Well, they
didn't come across on Friday night. The Blues beat them up.
There a lot of turnover ball. The Brummies just weren't
able to impose themselves on the contest, and that is
always going to happen when you go behind early on

(04:27):
the scoreboard. But you say, watch those restarts. Just couldn't
get into the game, and you know you're never going
to find a way back into the game from that point.
So I thought, I agree, the Blues are very, very good,
and when you can make some technical substitutions around the
fifty to fifty five minute mark, take some of those
players off that you need to one because the second
half I got a bit scrappy, but too just to

(04:48):
protect them for the final next week. That's always a
good spot to begin as a coach. In the semifinal.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
Oh, it's massive, and I don't think you can underestimate
the fact that those changes, but also the fact that
the Blues have an extra day rest that Hurricanes chief
semi final, they absolutely took lumps out of each other
and we've seen that with the Chiefs casualty wards and
then you know, the the rest of this week is
going to be pretty telling for who's available who's fit

(05:13):
for the Chiefs. But to have twenty four hours to
be able to sit back and watch that semi final,
to then have the final at Eden Park, you know,
everything really is stacked in the Blues favor and making
those technical substitutions getting a few players back this week.
I think they'll probably get Bryce team Locklam at Funnel
the lock So you know, the Blues a certainly in

(05:36):
the box seat.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, on the basis of what we saw Friday night. Absolutely,
and they're going to be at home home advantage, which
perhaps maybe they weren't expecting once they finished that game
on Friday night, maybe thought that they might have to
go down to Wellington. Obviously probably sixty four a game
in the Canes favor at that stage, and I've been
kinder described it as what choosing between cholera and the plague.

(05:59):
It was a very very good line as to where
they wanted the Hurricanes or the Chiefs in the final.
Which one of the Chiefs the plague or the will
call what's worse.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, look, i think they'll be hoping to be the plague.
Weldn't they come and cripple the Blues at the knees
and look, they are every chance of doing that. But
when you look at the Blues to this point in
the season, you've got to be impressed with what Verncotta
and the coaching team have done, haven't they. And it's
not just Vern, you know, Paul Tito is a big

(06:31):
part of that team. Greek feet has you know, had
a big impact on the scrum and they had some
disruption early in there with Tony Brown coming in and
Jason o'hellerin running the attack. You know, you could sit
back and say, well, they don't stually have much of
an attack because they're playing very much like a French
South African team with that those direct, powerful carries, one

(06:52):
off the ruck, doing the simple things. Well, even the
wingers Mark to Leah, Caleb Clark coming in looking for work,
Rico o'whani the same. So it is a bit one
dimensional what the Blues throw at you, but it is
highly effective, incredibly different to stop, difficult to stop, and look,
Vern has red the Blues of their inconsistencies. You know,

(07:13):
they've had complacency patches within games, but it's when they
have been on top and very dominant. Who was Adulton
Popolli talked about they've had a couple of wake up
calls this year and their losses against the Crusaders and
the Hurricanes, and how that's had a positive impact on
their mental space and preparing for finals.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
But Vern certainly brought a harder edge, isn't here he has?

Speaker 2 (07:38):
And it's funny you mentioned that around the wings looking
for work because they're not getting a lot of it
in the user positions and that's what all the Blues
have always been about, that expansive style of footy. They
can run it from their owning goal and try and
make something happen here. But this year we've seen just
a very cohesive team around the exits, getting into the
right areas the ground and then when they get into

(07:59):
you know, the red zone or thirty meters out, they're
very direct at that point. They use the likes of
Papaliti and Tuebologi before he got injured, now Dowry direct
runners to get them into the twenty two and then
just from there they inch inch inch four but with purpose,
strong carries, really hard running and you know, we was
seeing caleber Car the leaguet a few finishes, but they're

(08:19):
not you know, scoring sixty seventy meters wonder tries are.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
They No, they're not.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
And it is to a degree a test style of
football that the Blues are playing. You think about where
they're dominant, the set piece, the scrum. It has crushed
so many teams this year. They're tactical, kicking where and
when they use the ball, and their their style of carrying.
They're they're cleaning out their body high. All these little

(08:44):
things they've they've got right. And I guess also what's
encapsulated their season as a guy like Harry Plummer. You know,
you look back throughout the Blues history, Carlos Spencer, they
went out and bought Bowden, Barrett's, Stephen Peterefetter. All these
guys are classy, silky, you know, quiet flamboyant operators to
a degree in their own right. And then you've got

(09:05):
Harry Plummer, this local boy who's flitted between twelve and ten.
It's had a number of injury issues, very much been
second fiddle pretty much all of his career. And then
the Blues are now on the cusp of their first
fully fledged title in twenty one years, and he's the
most unheralded guy driving them around the park kicking fifty
twenty two's, you know, being very simple but effective and

(09:30):
what he's done. And so that is the Blues in
a nutshell this year.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
It certainly is, and they'll go into the final I
think this week as the favorites. But let's go to
Saturday afternoon and the Chiefs and Hurricanes, and as we
talked about there and you mentioned before, down to a
fast start in many ways, the Chiefs came out at
the blocks at pace and put the Hurricanes on the
back foot. And when you've got to chase the game,
that is always a tricky spot to be in, and

(09:56):
the Chiefs just forced the Hurricanes to do that. It
was never quite out of reach necessarily, but they kept
them in arm's length, I thought. And that was a
very good Chiefs performance.

Speaker 4 (10:07):
It was.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
But on the flip side, it was quite a poor
performance from Hurricanes. And right from the start they went
away from what's worked for them this year. They wear
the Blues didn't look nervous. The Hurricanes did, and they
kicked away so much position in their opening quarter and
they allowed the Chiefs to run it back at them
to chance their just kickkickkick, And this year they've used

(10:32):
the ball well, and they nullified the one of their
greatest drengths, their loose forwards. I thought, Brett Cameron, you know,
didn't have a great night. Reuben Love struggled to weave
at the back to impose himself on the game as well.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
It really was probably one of.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
The Hurricanes' worst performances on the biggest stage in front
of a big home crowds. So yes, the Chiefs came
out of the blocks and blew the Hurricanes away, but
the Hurricanes helped them do that by giving them so
much position and saying, hey, yeah, you bring it to
us rather than we're going to take it to you.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
They did, and the Chiefs used to. I thought, you know,
while a Titi superbly, it was incredible, incredible forms.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
One of the great individual super rugby performances in history.
You know, that might be a bit inflammatory to a degree,
but I think also with Tit, the potential there has
been recognized by the fact you're playing Luke Jacobson up seven.
You know, he was the Chiefs, he's the Chief's captain.
He's bolted on eight and they've accommodated Wallace a Tit

(11:35):
starting at eight. Because that impressed by him and just
to look at him physically. He is probably the most
traditional style of eight New Zealand has, isn't He's big,
He's powerful, but he's so silky and everything he does
is ball skills. He could you know, kick as well.
Quite reminiscent of Hoskins in terms of his skill set,

(11:59):
but probably a bigger man. And geez, that matchup is
going to be incredible, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (12:03):
In the final.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
It's going to be really good. Look, I was utterly
impressed by him. Yeah, the Hurricanes just I don't know.
Last week we saw a bit against the Rebels as well,
And this is something that Clad McMillan picked up on
and spoke about it in his post match media conference
on Saturday and also with Jason Pine on weekend. Spat
and used to exibb just around some of the things
that spotted from the Hurricanes in that Rebels game that
may be suggested they weren't entirely comfortable with the style

(12:27):
they were playing all that they weren't exactly built for
playwer footing and the Chiefs really exploited that exploited some
of those eras and that takes good awareness from the Chiefs,
but also shows that probably learned a bit from last
year where they got undone in the final, and you know,
the Hurricanes will take a few lessons from that, I'm sure,
but just probably weren't quite built for playoff footing in

(12:48):
that regard.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yeah, they say you've got to lose one to win one,
and a couple of weeks ago, Verncotta said after the
Chiefs blew away the Reds that the Chiefs heads removed
their mask, and I think that's a great way of
describing it, because we'd banged on and bashed up the
Chiefs still a degree throughout the regular season and fair
enough too, they were underwhelming, but they have come into
this finals and really come out of the blocks and

(13:13):
laid down a marker with the style of rugby, with
our play, with their cohesiveness, with their big players standing up.
You know, really Clayton McMillan seems to have time. They're
run this year and that would be a bit. There's
a massive lesson for them from from last year and
the Hurricanes. You know, they finished top and they almost

(13:36):
did a Blues in recent years. You know, if you
think about the Blues when they staggered past the Brumbies
in the in their semi final. Well, the Hurricanes were
unimpressive against the Rebels and then didn't didn't rise again
for the Chiefs. So very contrasting and what you want
and need from a team coming into successive finals matches.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Just picking up on that as well. I guess we
talked about them during the season not really hitting any
great heights. I still finished fourth, but is there probably
a lesson there in the bloated format. This might be
something we can ask kivem malloy about a bit later on,
but just the you know the nature of the playoffs,
knowing that you don't have to beat you have to
pick essentially for two weeks at the end of the season,

(14:21):
maybe in three and you can win a Super Rugby title,
which kind of extinguishes the point of the first fifteen weeks.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
It does.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
That's very fair and home advantage is important, but it's
not the baer win end or. And I think the
Chiefs had never won an away final away semi in
their history. Well that they put that to bed, didn't they.
And another point on the Chiefs is they did it
the hard way. Two yellow cards, so everything was stacked
in the Hurricanes favor.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
They're at home.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
They had one man advantage for twenty minutes and I
know one of those periods they didn't score any points.
So they had every opportunity to win that game and
couldn't do it. So the Chiefs have taken the hard road.
They have to go away from home again the face
of a bit of adversity with injuries, but they've already
overcome a lot and they showed that within that Hurricanes

(15:09):
game as well.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
Well.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
They had two tries ruled out as well. I mean
obviously ruled out, but shows probably their dominans that they
did have those try scoring opportunities to an extent that
could have even been even further in front of the Hurricanes.
The Chiefs the couple of injuries. As we touched on
the SEMISONI Takeyo Hole definitely out achilles issue. Seems like

(15:30):
he's going to miss at least some tests. We don't
know how many as yet. Might get a picture on
that in the next couple of days, so they're going
to have to bring in well. Bradley Slater also the
possible mcl sort of injury, so he's doubtful for the final.
They might to use Claddon's words yesterday, give them a
bit of strapping and send them out there. So they

(15:51):
are going to have to get Tyrone Thompson, who's a
player that's been talked about for a number of seasons
as a real comer in New Zealand rugby, hasn't really
got his opportunities, has been linked with the NRL. This
year's brother Leo plays for Newcastle, a big opportunity for
him presenting this weekend and then they're gonna have to
find another hooker.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
From some I think Tyrone is going to the NRL,
so you know what to send off. And there are
a number of different storylines around this game in terms
of Vern Cotta and Clayton McMillan, Vern coach Clayton made
him as captain, so some real nice symmetry there, I know,
the great mates off the field and Akira Awana playing

(16:29):
his last game for the Blues, Tyren Thompson going on
to the RL, so you have these sorts of things.
But yeah, injury wise, SAMMASONI is a huge loss. He's
struck form at the right time for the Chiefs and
if it is an achilles, it is an achilles. If
it's a rupture that would be season ending, but we
don't know how bad that is. And when you look

(16:51):
at the Blues strengths, going that deep in your hook
of stocks is a concern, particularly from a scrum perspective
where the Blues are so dominant. So that's a real
concern for the Chiefs.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
We look at the way the Blues are played and
they've really found what they want out of Rickettellian Eckland
that they're one two punch kind of liking it to
the way the Crusaders had Brinhill Mitch Strummond looking for years.
And now you wouldn't say, and maybe they now are
in the conversation, but you wouldn't say Rickattelli Eklund's all
backs players. But they played the role that the coach

(17:23):
wanted them too, similar to Hall and Drummond, and just
did the nucleus of the job very very well. That's
gonna be tough for the chief try and respond to
this week.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
It is a risky scenario, isn't it, Because let's say
Bradley Sada has a ligament injury with his knee, You
strap it up, you give him a jab. Perhaps is
he going to last the distance Tyrone Thompson not a
target there. Yeah, Tyron Thompson hasn't played a lot this year.
How many minutes has he got in him? And then
you're looking at bringing in a guy millennium Son Adivu,

(17:55):
who was the former King's College First of Thing captain.
He's played nineteen games for the Naki but hasn't played
super rugby massive stage. Let's say he's on in the
last ten minutes and has a match winning, potentially lineout.
How's he feeling about that situation? So it's a real
risky scenario for the Chiefs.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
It certainly is. Indeed, yes, some interesting decisions ahead of
Claydon McMillan.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
Hopefully they get Sean Stevenson. He is a late exclusion.
I thought that would be a big loss for them,
but they seem to navigate that.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
No. Tourre at fullback is becoming more accustomed to that
position and playing really well. I'm going to move the
tipping up forward here just to continue this conversation. You
picked Blues Chiefs Finals. Congratulations, so you moved to sixty
five points.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
I did, actually, ever, we wager at the tab on
that as well, So well do you take that?

Speaker 2 (18:44):
I went the Blues canes and that got me one point.
So I don't think I can overhaul this nineteen point deficit.
But do you want to? Could we put twenty five
points on.

Speaker 4 (18:57):
When it's exil?

Speaker 2 (18:58):
All right? Who wins the final inn? Well?

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Look, I want the Chiefs, but I'm going to have
to tip the Blues. And why I think they're ready.
They're comfortable in who they are, they know what they
want to do, they're at home, they're fully fit again,
players back, they've got an extra day.

Speaker 4 (19:19):
Everything's stacked in their favor.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
Really, I just can't see the chief Chiefs mintum? Is
that a chief Smarner? Chief Smarner, he's smarting momentum. They
did the way they played last couple of weeks. I
don't think that they'll find this fine playing away from
home too big a challenge. Obviously it's going to be
a challenge, but I don't think that's an issue really
for them. They get the start's going to be key, well,
not in the first ten to fifteen minutes. I think
how this game is going to go. It could be

(19:42):
an arm wrestle. But if the Blues can start against
the Brumbies, it's going to be half for the Chiefs
to try and chase the game from.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
That point h And you look back to that, it
was Claik McMillan, you know that now infamous line. It
was two weeks ago the Chiefs lost to the Blues
and the rigular season match at Eaton Park, and they
had at least half a dozen guys missing, and they
weren't actually that far away they were, they were beaten.
But Claik McMillan, the post Press corrence said I'll see

(20:10):
you back here in three weeks and what do you
know to earn profit?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Profit? Clayson got it right. Indeed he did right. Let's
get into our all black selections. So we did these
a few weeks ago. I've re selected my team and
I'm going to run through now. This is going to
be named next Monday afternoon, around five thirty ish. So
there's obviously been a few players that are now unavailable

(20:37):
since we selected. I've had a few different changes of
heart around some of these things. So I'm going to
read out what I think now and you can respond
to to that lemb if that works for you, just
do it all right. Props ethan degree Terrell Loanback's offer
Thonga Fasi to Mighty Williams Fletcher Nule. Now I'd Selectavy Numia,
but we haven't got a complete picture on how fit

(20:58):
he is as yet, so if not, I would go
with George Bower, so that there'd be six props.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah, very interesting to see prognosis on nomea cruel timing
for him, like Patrick Twopolo to Samasoni Takaho and others.
But yeah, I think there's a chance they potentially go
five props. So I'm actually going to go five and
add an extra loose forward because I'm finding that incredibly
difficult to select.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
You'll get to that in the moment. I found it
very difficult to select as I was putting this together. Okay,
so I went George Bauer. If Nimir is injured. There's
not a lot of depth that loose hid in New
Zealand at the moment.

Speaker 4 (21:39):
No, not not really.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
There's Joe Moody, but he doesn't have a super rugby contract,
so it would be a bit of a not a
desperate selection, but a very much a stop gat one.
So you'd think they probably would go George Bauer.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Aiden Ross has been there but discarded pretty quickly. In
twenty twenty two. I guess Joshua Forzatour looks like a
plaid for the future, but maybe too soon from as yet.

Speaker 4 (22:03):
Yeah, too soon. So yeah, I think it's basically between.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
I think if they are selecting the next it is
likely to be George Bauer.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Okay hookers, Cody Taylor suffer now SAMASONI Takyo who is
going to be injured, and it sounds like for the
part of the Test season, So I've gone Ricky Rickettelli.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, I think that's fair. He's been very consistent for
the Blues this year, matured in what he's doing. He
is quite small, I think, but low center of gravity,
very good for the Blues this year, nailing his throwing.

Speaker 4 (22:34):
So I think he's next. Cab off the rank.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
George Bell was probably in the conversation, but I didn't
think he had a great season for the Crusaders, and
depth elsewhere is not flash.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
No, it's not. I was trying to think who else
could be in the conversation, and there's not many that
are close to the conversation. In all honesty, there's quite
a big drop off. Someone like a Jack Taylor at
a Honders looks promising, but again far too soon. George
bell looks promising, didn't have a great season. I didn't
think Henry Beller's brother again looks like it may be
a contender for the future, but again very very early.

(23:07):
So beyond the top three in the country, there is
a bit of a drop off locks Scott Barrett two
po VI. When we did this last time, I had
Patrick typolot To and Lockla McConnell now is injured. McConnell
has been injured, haven't seen a lot from him recently,
and seems to have been surpassed even when fit, by
Sam Dowry. Having mulled over what we talked about last week,

(23:30):
I'm going to go Sam Dowry and Josh Lord, who
reports suggested would be fit for the opening or around
early July, so so that Josh Lord if not, and
I told Arkoi would be my pick.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yeah, I agree to a point. I think Sam Derry's
got to be in that conversation. Whether Razor has got
over him leaving the Crusaders. I guess we'll wait and see.
But those third and fourth ones are very out for debate.
I still am surprised that Monarchy Selbu Rica is not
on the bench for the Chiefs. I think we probably

(24:08):
found out a wee bit about the Hurricanes locks at
the weekend, a bit of a black mark for them.
So you're really scratching around for compelling contenders there. So
I really don't know who that fourth fox is going
to be.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah, it's it's a tricky one. Let's go to loose
Fords because this is a really interesting selection. Now I've
selected five or only for the five I selected, sorry,
I think the six because just go side note for
a point. When we sitched this, originally we selected thirty
three players. We now believe, well, no, it's going to
be thirty two. So I had to cut someone somewhere,

(24:44):
and I've got a loose forward. So I had Artie Savia,
Sam Kine, Dolden, Papa le Braid, and you'll see Ethan
black at a Semipenny fen Now last time, I'm now
selecting Artie Savia, Dolden, Papa le Ethan Blackadder, Luke Jacobson,
and Hoskinstitucco. So I've left out Brandon your Seae, Semipenny
feenwe In, Sam Kane Kane is obviously injured. Braandon your Sea,

(25:05):
I think is not as just run out a little
bit of puff hitting into the playoff stages. I think
he still had a good season. Seven Penny Female, I like,
but I have a couple of worries just around his
discipline and some of his tachning technique. So those are
my five.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
Yeah, I think you're right about Bradon Yo say he
was a big mover for the season, but I think
it's lost a bit of ground on Hoskinstituto. And while
it's only it's not just one performance, but Wallas a
TC very much elevated his presence at the weekends to
being in the conversation. I don't think he's quite there yet,
but another big performance in the final. These performances at

(25:47):
this stage of the year count for a lot more
than earlier in the season. I've given myself a bit
more rigor room here, so I'm taking six with a
leaving out one prop. So I am taking Summer PENNI Female,
and I agree that there is a degree of risk
about his the style of his play, but he also.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
Brings a real point of difference.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
If you're looking for an out and out six, you
know that real enforcer somebody who strikes fear in the opposition.

Speaker 4 (26:13):
That's him, So I would like to see him included.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah the other Yeah, well I agree with Walls. He
had it stormer and we look at the Super Rugby
semi final last year. We are a kra and host
intitut to play themselves out of all blacks and all
blacks fifteen positions. So what Hoskins did anyway? So these
these matters do count and stepping up in a semi final,
there's no mean feat from a youngster like that. If
I could make room from my would but I just can't.

(26:38):
Peter Lucky is the other one who has had a
very good season. But so many options there, in fact,
four of them can play open side flanket that I
just couldn't justify taking Peter Luckey as another open side.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
Yeah, there's no rush with a guy like Peter Lucky.
I think he has had a great year. A thirty
two man squads limited, I think they're potentially going to
take thirty six for the rugby champion of the Ragby Championship.
It gives you a lot more room. India tool will
be more. Again, it's a long season, but with that
versus around the open sides, you probably don't need to

(27:11):
take Peter luck I just yet.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Halfbacks, I've gone TJ. Pettinar Fin like Christy Courtz Rata,
which is the same three as last time. Any thoughts, Yeah,
I don't know if Finn's done quite enough yet.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
He got one telling turnover against the Brumby's quite close
to his line to sort of sum up his point
of difference, that that defensive ability very nuggety gets in
there and scraps away. He's only had two starts I
think maybe three since coming back from injury. I'm a
big Noah Hotham fan, so I think that's a three

(27:43):
that they would go with. If I was selecting the squads,
I'd be a bit bold and I would take no
hope them with Cortez, Ratama and t J. Pettan because
I want to see those young guys invested them for
the future.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
First five is no change. McKenzie Barrett Petter Fetter. I'm
not convinced that Peter Fetter is going to make it,
but I've select him an lay on the basis of
what I've seen there.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
If you're selecting three first five, z, those are you
of three Interestingly enough, Petifetter's heads virtually zero. He's played
maybe half a game at ten for the Blues since
coming back from injury. He was sidelined for two months,
so hasn't had a chance to stake his claim at
all there. But he does come into first receiver and

(28:26):
play that role for the Blues with the Harry Plummer
and the dualmaker type role. So if they're selecting three,
that will be the that will be the compilation.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Did Barrett play but at first five for Coastal or
do you play it full back? I don't know.

Speaker 4 (28:38):
Sure came off the bench second half.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, yeah, I heard a few whispers a few weeks
back he was going down and they got shut down.

Speaker 4 (28:44):
So it's very keen to keep it on the quiet.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
You kept it on the quiet, but I think I
heard it about four o'clock on Saturday afternoon. I guess
we played for Coastal today midfield, same as when we
last drafted this. Jordi Barrett, ricco Yuani and telling it
abound Billy Procter, Yeah, lock itin.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
I guess The only question there is whether Razor thinks
David have Allie's done enough?

Speaker 2 (29:05):
But I don't I can't see the evidence for it.
Outside backs. Last time round I had Caleb Clark and
Moni Nadawa, Mark Talia Rubin Love. Caleb Clark doesn't make
the cut this time, which is probably a bit rough.
But Severa Reese had a very very good season in
a pork Crusaders team, So I've gone with severe Reese
over Caleb Clark on this occasion.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Yeah, I think like other Hurricanes, I think Rubin Love
didn't have his best performance for the Hurricanes. Whether that
counts against him for Black selection, time will tell. But
when you're looking at that squad, Bowden Barratt's you're only
out and out fall back to a degree can play there,
I guess McKenzie. But he's your your ten, new one

(29:48):
and focusing on that. So maybe Ruben Love's at risk.
Not sure, but if you want to, yeah, I guess
it's whether they take the third ten or invest in
Ruben Love. I'm selecting Caleb Clark. I think he has
come back in exceptional shape this year. He lost a
lot of weight. He's actually put a bit more on

(30:08):
later in the year to satisfy cdd A ball in
the way he's getting involved. I think he brings a
point of difference in the air with his ability to
take restarts. His work rate's been exceptional, so at this
stage I would probably not take Sevu, which.

Speaker 4 (30:26):
As harsh because he was the best crusader all year.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
But I think Ammonia no Nadawa really stepped up for
the chiefs at the weekend, didn't they as well?

Speaker 2 (30:34):
I thought he's excellent. Yeah, I really did. So that's
the squad there, eighteen fourteen split thirty two man squad
and the actual squad will be announced Monday. I saw
a bit of conversation last night on social media around
the definition of Bolt. If we get that cleared up
for next weekend, that would be very handy.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Yeah, who's a bolter and that squad probably Wallace the
TT is the only one really on the fringe.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Bolt is going to be someone that very few plead
people had in their MOX squads. Shortly. Yeah, it's a
player at a bolt out of nowhere. That's the Bolton means,
isn't it.

Speaker 4 (31:10):
I can't remember his name right now. That's some Yeah,
Josh Lord.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
A couple of years ago, Brick Cameron, Brick Cameron, those
year Boulters, Billy Propton not a Poulter. We got it
cleared up right the second break and Rugby to come
back with the Final four our MVP Middle as well
and Kivin mlloy super Ruggy boards year to come as well.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
You're back with Rugby Direct time for our final four.
Four quick questions around the rugby world. It's rip through them,
Liam grab the Hurricane season out of ten.

Speaker 4 (31:50):
For me, Look, it's going to be an eight.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
I think exceptional year, regular season year finished top and
deservingly so I think when you take a step back
at it, look at that squad, the fact that artist
Severe wasn't there, they lost, came Roy Guard, you got
a first year head coach coming on board. For me,
they really did exceed expectations, very very disappointing, underwhelming finished

(32:14):
to play like that in a semi final. But if
you had told me at the start of the year
they were going to finish top and lo's a semifinal,
I would say that's a successful year. So I don't
want to let the end totally shape the narrative, but
it did leave a bit of a sour taste.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, I'm going to go seven and a half because
similar to you, we didn't have them that high in
terms of women, did our preseason predictions, but they were
clearly the form team for a long period of this
competition and just ran out a puff I think towards
the end he finished top. I think making a semi
final is and being beaten there is under achievement. So

(32:59):
take a half a point for me there, but seven
and a half out of ten. I mean Clake ledla
fird season in charge, especially at fifteen's level at Super
Aguia level. Very very good from them and plenty of
build on next year with Adie Savier comeback. Topic number two,
Why did no one want to see the Brumby's play
the Blues in the Super Braakmy semi final at Eating Park.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
There's a number of factors in this one as they
are an Australian team.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
Yeah, and that is a big factor if you look
at the crowds across the whole season. You look at
who turned up for the Reds Chiefs quarterfinal, the Rebels
Hurricanes quarterfinal and yeah the Blues Brumby's semi final. Kiwis
expect what they've been given from the Australian teams and

(33:43):
it's now Australian teams are now zero to eighteen in
New Zealand for playoff games, and until there's a consistent
degree of unpredictability, there is going to be a degree
of apathy with Australian teams and that's been proven.

Speaker 4 (33:59):
So that was a factor.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
The Brumby style of Arabi is probably a factor, and
the factor was just absolutely pissing down for most of
the day in Auckland.

Speaker 4 (34:07):
Is what effector for a walk up crowd.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah, I agree that the rain was a big one
as well, but I mean it was bucketing down to
about two to two thirty on Friday and then started
running again later in the day as well during the
game and afterwards. The rain is a big factor, but
I think the overwhelming element is that the fact that
it's the Australian team. If it had been any of
the New Zealand franchises playing them, would have been thirty plus.

(34:30):
I reckon they would have got. The fact of the
matter is that the Australian teams are to draw card
and that is a big issue for Super Ragby to
try and fix, but more so Rugby Australia to try
and fix, and with the Rebels joining the great Graveyard
of Super rugby teams, it's hoped that the talent card
and Gordon aside, can move to those other teams and

(34:51):
lift them up to the point where there is some
real jeopardy when the Brumbies come to town for a
semi final, or the Reds or whoever it might be
that you do not know how this is going to
play out, because it played out exactly as many would
have expected on Friday night.

Speaker 4 (35:03):
Yes, that predictably. Is that just on the Carter Gordon thing.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
That's tools the absolute face of mismanagement that as Australian
rugby over the past couple of years, Hamish mcclennan, Eddie Jones,
they have really a lot to answer for because Carter
Gordon is a massive talent and he's a massive loss.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
He should not be leaving the game now. Yeah, good
pick up for the Titans. Looking forward to having him
in my NRL fantasy team next year because I think
you'll be quite low value to start with, but plenty
of upsides, so I'll be getting on. That's T twenty twelve.

Speaker 4 (35:34):
Less money to go to the error which is a
lot that does.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Say, say quite a lot.

Speaker 3 (35:38):
Right.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Leaving aside our own selections which you've just heard, which
position will cause the most debate for your black selectors
this week? I just want to pin you down to
one limb Okay Locke. I think there's a lack of
compelling candidates, so I expect.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
That it'll be some raal robust debate about who those
third and fourth candidates are.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
I reckon lose forward because it's a matter of, as
we touched on there, how many they take and who
they take and what cover you need the cross blindside
open side number eight, So I think that mix will
be the point of contention. I agree about a lot
to an extent, but I think the cream rising to
the top in terms of dowry and maybe there's one
position there that they do consider, but I'm going to

(36:17):
lose forward there. And topic four, we heard Clark laid
Law and CLAYT. Macmillan both unhappy about the refereeing of
high tackles inconsistency across the board following the semi final
on the weekend. Do they have a point?

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, I'm not into refbashing at all, but I thought
it was quite fast, caught times some of the not
just the decisions, but I think it's the inconsistency that
leaves frustration.

Speaker 4 (36:41):
CLAYT.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
Macmillan was absolutely spinning chips and the coaching box when
I think it was TJ ped Andara, similar sort of
tackle to which a Summer penny female head clash yellow
card on Pedanata.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
I can't remember who Pedinara was on.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
It might have been Setti or female and a very
similar incidents and nothing came of it. So that's what
leaves coaches, fans disillusions, and I think there was a
real for it's been great this year to not have

(37:16):
the TMO overbearing influence, but that was a match where
that was the case and there was a frustration, a
lot of stoppages, a lot of going back tries, a
ruled out for incidents. So hopefully that's not the case
for the final.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Let's hope. So the one thing for me, it just
seems across the board now the seven of the USC
final or semi finals on the weekend as well, the
inconsistency across the board is becoming a real bug beer.
And this goes to the point that mean you've made
is that rugby's rule book needs to be simplified, needs
to be We needs to have some clear guidelines over
what is a red water is a yellow because you

(37:52):
look at incidents now and half the fans might say
that it's a red, half might say it's a yellow.
You need to get to the point where it is
a lot clearer for fans world Rugby don't seem in
any hurry to do that, which is a real shame.
But we're getting more and more of this across the
water franchise level. But let's move on to MVP medal
voting and this is the final one. Hoskins at two

(38:14):
too went into the final round with a eight point
lead over Dalton Papaale, Billy Procter on nine, suffer More
on eight, and then a whole host of players. I
was meant into count up how many we've got, but
I reckon theyre probably about twenty five thirty had points
over the course of the season. So I'm going to
give my three two ones first, and I suspect our

(38:39):
three might be similar in the fact Wallace a Titi
is going to get my three points. Thought he was
excellent as we touched on earlier in the podcast that
was a rampaging effort on all cylinders across all sides
of the park from war Titi and the fact that
you know we've touched on it before. I think he
got points at some point earlier in the season. He's

(38:59):
got five already, but the fact that he's put himself
now into all Blacks consideration player from completely nowhere at
the start of the season speaks to how good that
before Wents was. My two points goes to a J Lamb.
Thought he was very very good in a position that
I wasn't sure was suited to him in second five
more a winger or center. He made it his own

(39:20):
on the weekend. And the point now that Bryce he
might be back by you probably stick with someone like
a J Lamb, I think when you look at that
this week. And then my one point goes to Courtez Ratama,
who I thought had a good game and outpointed T. J.
Pitanara in the half back stakes in that semi final.

Speaker 4 (39:34):
Yep, all very fair.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
I think it's fair to say Wallace cleaned up, doesn't
It was him and him in daylight is ball carrying
his prominence, So he gets my three. I thought Damien
McKenzie was very good for the Chiefs, influential, great goal kicking,
really stepping up at the right time. So that's heartening
for Scott Robinson for has bolted on starting first five
and Stalton Papolle. I think he's stepped up and assumed

(39:58):
the captaincy and Patrick Tupaloto's absence, so he gets my one.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Well, Hoskins to two to wins the Rugby Direct MVP medal,
So congratulations Hoskins on that final achievement, joining two other
players whose names escaped me at this point in time,
Boden Barrett one one year. Hoskins loves his blaking, so
I'll make sure make sure you get that middle left
cross to him.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
Get it out.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
So right, let's take a break on Rugby Direct. Come
back with Kivin mcloy the cheer of superkod pacific after
this for yourself a real rugby fan, this is Rugby Direct.
Every try try it's sixty si, every tackle pack get
up again before time.

Speaker 4 (40:36):
It's Rugby Direct.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Pleasure to have super Rugby board cheer Kiven mcloy with
us on Rugby Direct. Kevin, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 4 (40:46):
Great to be here.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
What's a culmination of what the last fifteen sixteen weeks?
We have our final the Blues and the Chiefs, and
Eden Park's going to host it. How excited are you
for the weekly hit?

Speaker 4 (40:57):
Very excited.

Speaker 5 (40:59):
Look, I think it's a pretty ideal way to have
a showcase. We're looking forward to ideally having a pack stadium,
you know, forty plus people as your final with two
very hot teams. At the moment, I'm not sure we
could ask very much more, to be honest.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
How would you assess the season that's been.

Speaker 5 (41:19):
Look, I think the best thing for us has been
the quality of the product. There's been some great rugby
this year, and as long as the product's good, you
can build on it from there. So being very happy
with the quality of a lot of the games, there's
been a number of things I think around almost I
want to call around the fringes of it that we
can learn to do better next season. I think there

(41:40):
are elements of the draw that we can improve on. Absolutely,
we're having a close look at what we do a
souper around next year. I think that's something that needs
to be looked at. But as long as we've got
a strong quality a product.

Speaker 4 (41:53):
I think we're on.

Speaker 5 (41:53):
You know, we've got a pretty good base. And the
other thing that I think we've been very happy with
is being the officials and a lot of work and
conversations with them at the beginning of the season, especially
after what happened in that World Cup final. We did
not want to have a season and where rugby was
blighted by TMOS. And to be honest, the officials has
been great and working with the officials, I mean they've

(42:15):
got exactly the same attitude we have in terms of
making these games far more appealing to fans.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
When you talk about what's worked well the officiating, the
less focus on TMOS, some of the rule tweaks, and
then coming to the draw, I guess if we look
ahead to next year, what specific things are we talking
about daytime forty you know, Easter week in scheduling those
sorts of things.

Speaker 4 (42:42):
Yep, that's exactly it.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
Trying to get more afternoon games, thinking about Sundays, and
that's a bit of a challenge for the five day turnaround.
But do we have occasions where we don't have the
five day turnaround? And you know, not all the time,
but maybe once or twice in the season, a club
has to live with that.

Speaker 4 (43:00):
Referees.

Speaker 5 (43:01):
You know, we've tested the concept of miking the refs
up in the stadium and they've been doing it with
the Brumby has been doing it for a little while now.
We've tested it a couple of times. We tested it
in Chrostitch. I think there's a lot more we can
do with that, so, you know, just so the crowds
know what's going on. You know, that's a pretty obvious
thing to be doing. Looking at the drawer around areas

(43:22):
like Anzac Day and you know, we just gave an
Zac Day away this season. You know, what do we
do around en Zac Day to actually make that something
that's far more attractive in the context of the whole
competition as well, because.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
You look at the NRL and they do what three
four games maybe three on a day, But this year
I think you played ew zy on Australian teams on
the one weekend, plus MOREEA against VG, but nothing on
the day itself. So those are the thing opportunities you
need to take advantage.

Speaker 5 (43:46):
Of more absolutely, and maybe you know, one of the
things we're looking at is do we combine or do
we have super Round over Anzac weekend right, and then
turn it into a real New Zealand versus Aussie you know,
and just take maximum advantage of the ability for people
to travel as well with that extra day. So it's

(44:06):
all those sort of things that we're looking at right
now because it's a fairly hot time for us in
terms of the next couple of weeks getting the straw right.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
If we pick up on super Round, I guess without
Melbourne Rebels presence there next year, it's fairly well signposted
that it's hardly like it not be in Melbourne. If
we look at the alternatives, there's a bit of a
romantic scenario around maybe Fiji, but then there's challenges around
accommodation and lighting and the like. New Zealand's I guess,

(44:34):
I think there is a desire to have it here,
but probably not in the business of cities bidding for
sports events in the same way that Australia does. So
does that mean it's more likely to go to a
city like Perth or Brisbane. How far down the line
are you with where super Round will be?

Speaker 5 (44:52):
Well, you've summed it up pretty well. Actually, where a
reasonable way down the line with those discussions because it's
a critical part of the draw. So yes, in an
ideal world, it'd be great to have it in Fiji
if you talk about fan centric how good would that be?
But there is You're right, there's some infrastructure challenges here.
It's not completely out of the mix, and so we're

(45:12):
still looking at it. Perce have put their hand up
and Perce could be quite attractive. There's some challenges there
with the distance of travel, but in terms of stadium
and support and you know, Perce could be an attractive venue,
not so much Brisbane but potentially Gold Coast down that
area because you know that would take a lot of
boxes for us. But as you probably understand, it's a

(45:33):
massive financial consideration and that's one of the reasons why
we can't look to have it in New Zealand because
you know, the reason we had it in Melbourne was
a Victorian state government wrote a nice big check for
all the teams that missed out on home advantages. So
you know, we are reliant on that financial backing for it,
and that does take a lot of the news. What

(45:53):
does take New Zealand out of it completely at the moment, Unfortunately, a.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Lot of que is on the Gold Coast, a lot
of keys like going the Gold Coast for holidays.

Speaker 5 (45:59):
Exactly right, and easy travel, you know, great little stadium,
you know you could, So it's very much what's in
the main for us as well. We're certainly looking at that.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
Yep, conceptually, if we look at the Super Rugby Board
and the Commission, it's been set up, you know, in
the past year to put the competition front and center
because historically the national unions have used it largely as
a vehicle for the test scene. And I guess that's
part and pastor of rugby that the test scene is

(46:31):
always going to take priority. But how much I guess
power do you have to enact change? You know, the
national units are still heavily involved. I guess it's an
ongoing process. But this I imagine there's things you'd like
to do and then you maybe get some pushback. So
just generally, what's the Super Rugby Commission Board role and

(46:54):
how easy is it to get things done?

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (46:56):
Good question.

Speaker 5 (46:58):
So we're governed by a JV agreement which has been
agreed to by both the unions. Now and you said
this in your opening in your comments just seen it's
absolutely right. The Union's fair play to them have recognized
that the Super Rubbie competition itself needs some specific and
deliberate focus, which is what the Commission has been put
into place to do. We governed by this JV agreement

(47:19):
which which basically says our core remit is around bums
on seats and eyeballs, right, So it's marketing the game,
doing better things for the game. Now that leads into
a number of areas because that can impact shape of
the game. You know, some of the things that have
been done around the rules, officiating, which I've mentioned, marketing,

(47:39):
comms plans. There are a number of areas that are
called major matters that we just don't get ourselves involved.
And we can't as a board change the complete structure
of the competition, so that's really up to the unions.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
Now.

Speaker 5 (47:52):
What the Commission does and the Board does though, however,
is provide a great forum for discussion. So some of
these meteor issues around the future of the competition and
some of the things that are worth discussing. That's the
discussion point. And you know, we've got fo we've got
more Robinson, We've got you know, the key people sitting
around the board table. Ultimately can we make the decision. No,

(48:14):
but we can have a pretty good discussion and raise
issues that can then go back to the Unions for
hopefully for ratification or otherwise. So if nothing else, I
think we've got a good forum to be discussing some
of these other key issues as well.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
So in terms of the rebels decision this year, you
just had to watch and wait and see what Rugby
Australia did there.

Speaker 5 (48:33):
One hundred percent there was Rugby Australia's call. We had
to watch and wait and then once we're wants the
decision had be made. The ramifications of an eleven team
draw we worked from there.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
Yeah, what kind of impact is it going to have,
I guess on Super Rugby next year, but the next
five years not having a team in Melbourne and that
eleven teams scenario you've got at the moment.

Speaker 5 (48:53):
Yeah, I'm not sure about the impact of the team
in Melbourne, which is such a big concern. The eleven
teams next year is just a bit nigley, you know,
an odd number for the draw. So but it is
what it is and we're going to work our way
through it and there are going to be some advantages
because you know, every team is going to have a
couple of bye weeks. Well, you know, I'd like to

(49:14):
think that doesn't mean that all blacks will have to
be stood down as often, so you're going to get
quality players. So there's going to be some aspects to this.
We're going to rethink the finals, you know, so how
many teams actually go into the finals. So there may
be you know, for those people who think that eight
teams doesn't have a lot of credibility, well we're probably
looking at six teams in a different shape of the finals.
So there's there's some things that are that are positives

(49:35):
going forward. It then becomes really interesting on what we
do from twenty six onwards, and the fact that that
is obviously the start of broadcast deals on both sides
of the Tasman is quite important as well. So we
will be and one of the key discussion points is
what is the nature of the competition and how many
teams will be in the competition from twenty six onwards basically,

(49:55):
and what would those what would those teams be.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
Yes, we'll pick up on the future soon, but just
drolling down into that finals format, there was an alternative
floated around the seventeen model out of the the NFL.
How definitive can you be today about it will be
six teams which were the finals in terms of the
top two teams getting the week off, And like you say,

(50:21):
how important is that from a credibility integrity perspective when
you do only have eleven teams.

Speaker 5 (50:26):
Yeah, I can't be definitive. I can tell you that
we had a good discussion on it. We're going to
have to make a decision reasonably soon because we'll have
a you know, we have to nail in the fact
that we'll have sixteen rounds and then the three rounds
probably for a nineteen week competition. Sorry, there's one extra
week than this year. There's one extra weekman this year. Yep,

(50:47):
but it was it's something we haven't made a final
decision on yet. So sixteen six teams or seven teams
is still a discussion point. If you want a personal perspective,
I think you should be six just because that makes
more sense.

Speaker 4 (51:01):
I think yeap.

Speaker 5 (51:03):
Where six gets tricky is remember a lot of these
teams and they all run at a pretty lean financial
you know, they're they're only on a shoe string budget.
These guys, you could end up finishing second and you know,
and then potentially only in the finals thing, or even
first only having one home game and getting knocked out,

(51:25):
and so that that can hurt financially because these teams,
you know, are really reliant on finals football to help
their balance sheets. So we're going to have to think
that one through is a little bit as well if
we do go to six teams.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
If you look at the eight teams at the moment,
I don't think there's been a team from that five
to eight block that's beaten a higher ranked team in
the years we've had the quarter finals. So what I
guess thats have you come to a realization as a
board that it's probably not working even before the rebels scenario.

Speaker 5 (51:57):
Well, it's a bit of a double edged sword, isn't it,
Because you're right, there is that element. But the other
element to that is we went into round fifteen, the
final round, and there was only one game that was
you know, that was I think it was the Wartars
and Rids was the only game that was irrelevant. Every
other game there was something on it in terms of
how the top eight looked. So but look, I think
when we decide on or we have the conversation and

(52:19):
work out for twenty six onwards how many teams we
actually have. I think there'll be another conversation around what
the finals makeup looks like.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
Frankly, I guess if we cast the head to that
twenty twenty six window and the forecasting, you know that
eleven teams is an ideal that in a perfect world
you would add another team maybe more. How realistic is
that and what is a realistic destination for that team?

Speaker 5 (52:48):
When you say destination in which team, who would it be?
I think at the moment, obviously it's really early days.
But if you look at the obvious candidates, you've got
potentially bringing Japanese teams into the competition, You've got the Haguaris.
I don't think there's an option to bring South African
teams back into the competition. And then outside of that,

(53:10):
you know you've got potential, you know, probably more of
a stretch. Do you look at the West coast of America.
I'm not quite sure they're ready for a high performance context.
So I think all of that will be up for discussion,
and a lot of that, to be fair, will be
drawn by the two unions that that clearly falls is
a major matter in those conversations.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Yeah, because I guess how far do you push it?
Because one of the criticisms of Super Rugby, especially when
you know pp South African teams and Japanese it was
run over about six time zones and became increasingly hard
to follow, very cumbersome in terms of its number of
teams and the way it works. So how how do
you go just balance that with the need to expand

(53:52):
and the need to look at new horizons.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 (53:55):
I think if you take a fans lens on this,
we have sort of mucked around with this competition so
many times, from Super fifteen to Super twelve to you know,
it's like, okay, let's keep a consistency of what the
competition is and the structure of it for as long
as we possibly can. So so the best leagues in
the world aren't mucking ground with the structure of their
competitions every other year. So now we are in a

(54:17):
situation where twenty six onwards we are going to have
to introduce at least one other team to get ourselves
back to a balance. But having it, we have to
be really cognizant of that team being appropriate and high
performance context. So they're going to add to the competition
and we're also going to have to be cognizant the
fans are going to still understand that, you know, there's
some real credibility in the nature of the competition as well,

(54:40):
and all of that will go into the mix and
the discussions, and then of course, overlaying all that, you've
got broadcaster discussions and the number of games they want,
the time zones that work for them, and viewership and
those are really important considerations as well.

Speaker 4 (54:53):
On those broadcast negotiations.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
You know, they're extremely important to the financial future of
New Zealand and Australia and I guess they're coming to
a head now to a degree. So and those broadcast
negotiations are going to want blueprints for the future for
Super Rugby, for Rugby Championship and the like. So how
long do you have to establish a plan for who

(55:17):
and where that that twelve team is going to be?

Speaker 5 (55:20):
Well, I think those are that's those are ongoing discussions
that the unions are having now and that's very much
in that's very much major matter for the for the unions.
I guess our role in that is if it was
a Rasky the unions that be responsible, we'd be the
s is supportive or actually informative and saying hey, this
is what we'd like to see and just remembering the

(55:42):
integrity of the competition. We just we just solowly focused
on what's going to be good for this competition. But
I understand that those broadcast conversations are absolutely active and
live now and there is going to be some time
pressure on that the closer we get to understanding what
the deal is going to be for twenty six onwards.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
Yeah, do you have a view more broadly on Super
Rugby about things like a draft or.

Speaker 4 (56:08):
Selection?

Speaker 3 (56:10):
For you, I know you're probably powerless to a degree,
but for just you know, floating the idea here about
selection across the Super Rugby. You know all blacks been
able to play for Australian teams and vice versa. Do
you envision a day where that happens or is it

(56:30):
a bit of a bridge too far?

Speaker 5 (56:32):
I'll give you, I guess a personal view, and it
is something going back to a conversation before where I
think it's a good discussion point for for us to
have around the table. Draft might be at this stage
even in the medium term a step too far. Having
said that, you know, again personal perspective, Rich Manger, right, Well,
you know, Andrew Forrester at the Force could probably write

(56:55):
as big a check as the guys have written in Japan.
And if he was allowed to stay and that was
still within the Super Rugby ecosystem, he was still eligible
for the All Blacks. How good would that be? Right
for the competition? Ardie Severe goes to the war attas
you know, that would help the competition and the crowd
as well. You know, you take some of these really
good players and allow them to move within the ecosystem

(57:17):
of super rugby. That just even if it was just
an arrangement with the top fifteen to twenty players, so
you're not necessarily impacting the high performance development of younger
players coming through. But once you've reached that superstar status,
you know, you could start ranking these players and there's
there's a cost for them and they can move around
the competition. And again, purely from a competition perspective, how

(57:38):
cool would that be?

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Indeed, I guess from Australian perspective which we don't often
consider here in New Zealand. But they haven't won the
compinent number of years. The teams have been not on
the final for a number of years, you see on
various articles. So do you think it's time to pull
out of Super Rugby even you know that, I know
the deal in place to twenty thirty and go to
a club competition or something over there. But what value
is Super Rugby providing to Australia.

Speaker 5 (58:01):
I guess at the moment, Well, it's it's a tough
environment for them over there. At the moment, I think
the you know, with Standard Broadcaster, it's a it's a
limited streaming channel, so it's it's really hard to get
much visibility. I know in terms of marketing, budgets are
completely dwarfed by n r L and NFL and a

(58:25):
f L, so it's a it's really tough to get
any traction. And so I think what's going to be
really important for them in the next little while is
the Australian team starts to perform and win a few
games and that people start to actually fall back in
love with rugby again. The audience is there, and the
and the passion is there, but at the moment it's

(58:46):
with the lack of success and some of the other
sort of issues that have gone on in rugby in Australia.
I know it's it's hard to get traction.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
It really is good new CEO about to start. What's
he going to bring to super about to start?

Speaker 4 (59:01):
I wish it was about.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
Remember my brain when he was when he was going
to get on board.

Speaker 5 (59:07):
Jack Jack Measley. He starts on July twenty seconds, so
he unfortunately had twelve weeks three months. Yeah, notice Pier
which is quite brutal, and he's on gardening leave at
the moment. Actually, we're bringing him over for the final.
I can't wait for them to start. I mean, the
great thing about what Jack will be doing is that

(59:27):
he will be one hundred percent focused on this competition,
living and breathing it. And at the moment, you know,
it's fine that we've got this governance board in place,
but as a governance board, we can only do so much.
And there's a lot of things that you know, a
lot of great ideas, a lot of things that need
to be implemented that you need a team to go
ahead and do. And Jack was Jack was an outstanding candidate.

(59:49):
And I think we said before he's got a really
strong background of marketing.

Speaker 4 (59:53):
So he's you know, the A.

Speaker 5 (59:57):
League experience is good because he's had to learn to
scrap and fight there as well, and he's going to
have to learn to scrap and fight, especially in that
Australian environment. As we're saying, he's a rugby man. He
loves his rugby th is playing until just recently, and
so I can't wait to him for him to get
on board actually, because that will allow us to have
some more traction and to say we're going to have

(01:00:18):
somebody living and breathing. What's good for the competition twenty
four hours, you know, seven days a week.

Speaker 4 (01:00:23):
That's perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
Just on that though, because as you mentioned that, sometimes
it's a super akable you're a wee bit powerless or
you can't influence timid decision. So what power I guess
is he going to bring or have?

Speaker 5 (01:00:35):
Well, one of he'll be doing. You know, there's still
within the context of what I was talking about with
eyeballs and bums on seats and marketing the game, how
we do with for the officials, number, the shape of
the game elements, communication plans, you know, things like fantasy leagues.
There's a boy you start to list it out, you
know the draw, making sure that draw the Sunday football

(01:00:58):
we're talking about potentially afternoon football. Are the implications of
that there's you know, it doesn't take you very long
before you've got a long list of things that he
can absolutely still be influencing and be quite effective for
the competition.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
Yep, if we bring it back to this weekend, Eden
Park Chiefs Blues, we certainly can't let you escape without
a prediction.

Speaker 5 (01:01:22):
I'm not I'm completely neutral. My prediction is that there'd
be a great crowd in the great game. That's probably
all that I should be really saying. I'm going to
tell you what I am really looking forward to. If
you're if you're if you're a rugby fan, how good
is this going to be? I mean, this should be
an absolute cracker And as I say, just really hoping

(01:01:42):
that as a showcase, even it's played in front of
a full crowd, it'll be superb.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Yeah, let's hope for that. Given below, thank you for
joining us on Rugby Direct. Grateful for your time, Thank you,
thank you. Thanks guys, that's a fascinating chat with Given below,
wasn't it? Liam? Plenty of issues you'd be up for
a trip with the Gold Coast for Super Round.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
Yeah, I'm sure somebody Gold Coast Airways can d get
us over there and get us here.

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
But yeah, some some big takeaways there.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
I guess Super Around not coming to New Zealand's Super
Ugby Commission family in favor of a sixteen finals format
next year.

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
And who knows where that twelve teams coming from.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
It could be from anywhere at this point in time.
That'll do us for Rugby Direct will be back next Tuesday,
live from the People's City, the Garden City, the city
that shines, christ Church.

Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
I'll have to pick up the move, won't we. It's
gonna be a somber, somber place.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
I'm expecting a sort of welcome at the airport, the
celebratory sort of hucker is I come down the the
escalators welcoming one of their favorite sons home.

Speaker 4 (01:02:41):
It's gonna be a Blues, Chiefs, Heavy or Blacks team,
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
M Yeah, well we'll get to that next week. We'll
be in christ Church. The squad naming is on Monday.
Will be back with you on Tuesday on Rugby Direct.
Very much looking forward to that. On behalf of Liam
Napier wishing you a very good weekend. Thanks to our
friends at Habit Health for technic all your aches and
pains to spatter work book on line and it habit
on Health to see a physio. Get back in the
game faster thanks to Last and Bars English as well.
Get your Tuesday for more from Newstalk st B.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
Listen live on air or online, and keep our shows
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