August 27, 2024 • 29 mins
Elliott's landed in Johannesburg and he and Liam assess the stunning news that Leon MacDonald has quit the All Blacks coaching staff after just five tests.
Elliott and Liam also offer some thoughts on where the first test between the All Blacks and Springboks will be won and lost, as well as the latest in the NPC and FPC.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Yet inside the game from every angle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Forklift Solutions, lifting you
and your business to a higher level. Time to reconvene
on the podcast, I've shot myself over to Johannesburg. Liam,
You're back at home kitchen giving a watch on what
has been a dramatic few days in All Blacks. Developments
came out last Thursday, and this has been the story
(00:46):
of the week, hasn't it, The Leon McDonald departure from
the All Blacks after just five test matches. I guess
before we get into what it means your initial reaction
when that news dropped around lunchtime on.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Thursday, Well, certainly dramatic, wasn't it, Elliott? As you mentioned there,
I don't think anybody really saw that coming. There was,
you know, few whispers that maybe there were too many messages,
too many coaches. Well then the All Black scroup and
we've seen them be very scratchy and patchy this year
and heard a few whispers about maybe some tension in
(01:21):
the coaching group, but as you say, certainly five tests
into the year, nobody really expected such a dramatic departure
so early into the year, so early into Scott Robertson's
coaching tenure, having just formed this group, What.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Does I guess do for Yeah, I know you've just
been on the phone call with Jason Ryan and Tupo Vie.
But I suppose the cohesion of the management staff. But
I know they've made the decision to sort of make
things more cohesive. But it's got to be an initial joke,
doesn't it. So the way they prepare for this Test
match against South Africa.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
It's a major disruption, isn't it. If you take a
step back, and I guess look at it from from
a structure point of view. Lelio McDonald was the All
Blacks attack coach and I think that's where the issues
have One of the areas where the issues have arisen
from Leon is known has been quite a structured attack coach,
(02:20):
having formulas in place, and him and Scott Robinson are
both headstrong characters and things have clearly come to a
head from there. But from a structured point of view
for the All Blacks, Scott Hansen has been running the
All Blacks defense. He now has to flip entirely and
assume the attack brief. Tommody Allison, who was in the
(02:45):
All Blacks coaching group on a part time basis, is
a contact coach, is now leading the national team's defense.
You know, a well regarded, highly regarded coach, Tombody Allison.
But to be parachuted into that role straight to test
level is a huge ask in any sort of week,
(03:08):
let alone one where you're going up against the spring
box at Eden Park. So from your point of view,
how much of a disruption as Leanne McDonald's departure and
how do you think how and why do you think
it's come about so swiftly?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah? I think this is the fascinating thing is that
they've decided five weeks in that there's not getting any better.
It's going to remain this way. That they're so diametrically opposed.
And I suppose, I suppose it's one thing, you know,
putting together a coaching staff on paper, it's another one
actually living it out and being a living, breathing coaching
team in the world of rugby. And you know Leon
(03:47):
last week Doneder Scott Robertson in twenty seventeen, that was
when he was as an assistant departed there, took some
time off with family that ended up as the Blues's
assistant originally and ended up as the head coach there
soon afterwards. But I guess maybe you know, there's if
there was some tension between the two, perhaps there was
a disagreement in the past that maybe Scott Robertson reverted
(04:08):
to the fact that actually just a good rugby coach
and once we get into all Black camp we'll be
able to figure these things out. But it does seem
like they're so diametrically opposed and the way they want
to play and coach rugby that it can't be resolved.
I think it is a disruption all of a sudden. Yes,
you're removing Lean McDonald and perhaps sharpening up or getting
(04:29):
a bit more cohesive and some of the messaging, but
you're also switching around some of the key briefs of
the team. You know, Scott Hansen on the defense side
of things moves to the attack as you mentioned, and
the time to yell Allison change as well. I think
it has to be disruptive there for Scott Hansen to
be preparing for the next four years really, because you
know he's going to be sorting out the defense of
the coach and then get the message the week after that.
(04:51):
For the at least the next year, he's going to
be looking at the attack of the side. So I
think there's no way for it to not be disruptive
in the All Blacks environments and the key for them
is how they move on past it and try and
get the results this weekend.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Yeah, I just want to pick up like couple of
points you make there about twenty seventeen and when Leon
was at the Crusaders, and my understanding there is that
there was actually a falling out around Leon's relationship with
Brad Moore and Leon moving back to Nelson. At the
time he said it was to be closer to family,
(05:28):
but he's obviously aspirational as well and wanting to be
a head coach and that came about from the Blues.
So clearly this is not the first time there's been
tension between Scott Robertson and Lea McDonald And the fact
of the matter is they've had twelve months to get
on the same page. And as you mentioned, you know,
(05:48):
there is a difference between coaching on paper and living
and breathing it in an All Black environment when you
have a shot gloss at home to the Pumas, and
obviously some difficulties getting past England as well. But Scott
Robinson was appointed head coach of the All Blacks in
March last year, and this was always going to be
his coaching team as far back as the year before
(06:10):
when he was sounded out to take over from me
and Foster. So he knew his coaching team so far out.
How did he not envision some form of issues, you know,
so to me to make this change. You know, they've
been applauded for their ability to you know, make this
decision so swiftly and not let it hang over the
(06:33):
team and drag out for the rest of the year.
And I think there is some truth to that, but
I also think that this just shouldn't have happened given
the long lead in time that they had, so to me,
it is a bit of an early black eye for
Scott Robinson's tenure. The only other point I'd make is
this is not the there's a bit of symmetry here
isn't there Because two years ago when the All Blacks
(06:55):
were in Johannesburg, they went through similar coaching up people
following their first home series loss to Ireland, and Jason
Ryan came in as All Black Spord's coach replaced John
Plumtree for the tests Allie Parks. So very spooky, sort
of similar circumstances there.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
It certainly is. I guess a couple more things that
I want to touch on before we let this topic go. Look,
did Leon McDonald get a payout? I guess it's the question.
And does it have a restraint of trade to stop
and coaching international teams abroad for a certain period of
time will be I don't think that was asked of
Chris Lendrim. I haven't heard it clarified in recent days.
(07:34):
That's that's something I think is still sticking out and
probably needs to answered.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Yeah, my understanding is Leon was contracted for four years
as All Black's assistant coach, and while the negotiations of
his exit will be confidential, I have heard that he
got paid out for as much as two years. So
I've also been apparently head coaches of Super rugby teams
(08:05):
get paid anywhere from three hundred fifty thousand dollars, So
you can do the math on a potential payout there.
No one will really know other than Leon what the
terms and conditions around that, but he would have definitely
got a payout. He wouldn't have walked away empty handed.
And I doubt that there is a restraint of trade
(08:26):
because you know he's walking away as a free agent.
I don't think you can put too many caveats around that,
particularly given the circumstances. So you know, maybe Joe Schmidt
taps them up, gives them a phone call. They've got
a strong relationship. They work together at the Blues Purse
with Schmidt Men's touring him, then Schmidt coming on board
(08:50):
as an assistant coach. So in terms of Leon's future,
you'd have to think it does lie potentially with another
international team abroad, because does he really want to go
back to coaching.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Super Rugby keeps some of those financial figures you're plucking
out there limb of sort of rugby director presenter salaries
that we're talking about. Finally, the other one I want
to throw at you is will the All Blacks look
for a long term replacement? Now this set up that
we've touched on a couple of times is going to
be in place. It's seemingly for the rest of the year.
But I guess once they get through these fourteen tests
(09:23):
this year, they can sort of reassess and see where
the holes are and see if they need to cover
things up. So I suppose the jury's out there. But
once your gutfield and do you think they'll look to
replace him on a full time basis next year or
will these two changes have made sort of cover it.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
It's a very interesting question. I'm not sure. I think
long term they probably would look to replace them. But
there's got to be some financial considerations here, given the
payouts that the All Blacks have made in recent years,
not just to Leon but to pray More and John
Plumtree as well.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
So I under.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
That's some big figures.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yes, some big figures that have been talked about. I
guess do you put someone of the mix that may
not necessarily work as well or do you trust that
these two And you know, Tamothy Alison long Bent outed
as a probable Crusader's coach head coached from twenty twenty six.
If he's to stay on permanently, with the all Blacks
that goes out the window as well, So all sorts
(10:28):
of threads to this story which is still developing and
still bubbling away as we get into test week in
the Republic. But that's where I want to turn the
attention to now on Ragpy Director Test Week in South Africa,
All Blacks and South Africa. Now, by the time you
hear this Russia Rasmus as he usually does naming his
team a Tuesday local time, the whispers are that even
(10:49):
ead Sabeth is likely arts, which adds to locking crisis
for the spring Box, which is about four or five deep.
Franco Mosta not playing Luda Yaga even eat Sabeth in
the mix as well, so they're right down on their
numbers in the second row. But Jee, there's nothing actually
going like an all Black South Africa teaste doesn't.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Limb doesn't get any b or earlier, and there's been
some amazing moments over there is that haven't there And
nothing quite compares to Alice Park, the Springbok spiritual home, altitude,
just the atmosphere around it, the team bus rolling in
getting pelted with fruit back in the day, not so
(11:32):
much anymore, but it really is a magical experience and
it is an arena that brings out the All Blacks best.
They've actually got a phenomenal record there in recent times.
I think they've won something like three of their past
four Tests at Alice Park and you only have to
go back two years to that response that saved Ian
(11:54):
Foster's coaching career with the All Black student. It's coming
one week after Mombala where they were completely outplayed, and
the Springboks are in great shape, aren't they. They're a
better team now than they were at the World Cup,
with Tony Brown coming on board and evolving their attacking game.
Jason Ryan noted some little evolutions in their line out moves.
(12:20):
Certainly you've seen that with the depth of their back
line play and some of their ability to use the
ball on the air, and they've just got phenomenal depth.
They rotated throughout that series in Australia two Tests against
the Wallabies and they did it comfortably despite making I
think it was ten starting or ten changes to their
squad between Brisbane and Perth, and that's something they've done
(12:43):
over the past four years. So this is a huge
challenge for the All Blacks. You know, disruption aside with
the assistant with Leo McDonald leaving, they have been really
patchy this year, so they've got everything to prove this
week I.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Do, and it's got interesting to see whether things have
been left in the tank and set moves whatever. You know,
what do you think have been left in the tank?
Because I know the on McDonald go on, but what
four sorry five tests inst did Jason Holns tenure of
strip play coach and really haven't seen too many stripe
players from the All Blacks so far in his tenure.
(13:19):
So interesting to see what is cooking this weekend. The
spring Box go in his favorites and it's been a
rarity in recent times. I guess how much will the
World Cup final last year way on some of these
players from the All Blacks perspective that are going out
in there and playing this test match this weekend.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's an interesting dynamic, is that, because you've had a
lot of post World Cup departures, particularly for the All Blacks,
but there is a real core group that did feature
in that final and had so many different experiences against
the All Blacks in recent tie against the spring Box.
Sorry you look at that Twickenham game that that record defeat.
(14:00):
Jason Ryan talked about how much he learned from that
in terms of the physicality that the spring Box brought
to blow the All Black away that night. Look, I
don't think any All Black ever gets over losing a
World Cup final, no matter what the circumstances are. You've
got Sam Cain in that group. Of course, you know
the red card in that final. As you know, he
(14:22):
mentioned that's something he's going to have to live with forever.
But that hurt lingers for any All Black and it's
not something that they'd get over. So I don't know
if it's something they'd necessarily talk about, but it's something
that would be prevalents in their minds. What about the Springboks,
do you think they are more confident than they've ever
(14:46):
been when it comes to facing the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, I do. I think they genuinely are. That they've
won their last two, including a World Cup final against them,
and I think there's a sense that the All Blacks
sort of the lower EBB now than they have been
for quite some time in terms of a block of
say five five or so years, not just this year's
All Blacks, but say you pass it out and go.
This is the tw twenty twenty two, twenty four class
(15:11):
versus the twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen and backwards after that.
So I think there is a sense that, you know,
the spring Box have had the upper hand in recent years,
but the All Blacks have always done quite well, regardless
of the coach and who it is, of getting themselves
up for the big games. There was the one hundredth
Tests and twenty twenty two, there was sorry twenty three
(15:33):
one I think it was. There was you know, other
tests along the way that they've managed to get up for.
Obviously I didn't get up for a World Cup final,
but you know the Alice Park won with the backs
against the wall a couple of years ago. There's you know,
they have history of being able to get up for
big occasions. They got up to draw on everything they
possibly can. This week again Ethan de Grout out. He's
(15:56):
been left behind with that neck injury of his He
was originally expected to travel ruled out, so to Mighty
Williams gets another crack and certainly the biggest match of
his career, you know, scrummaging against one of the spring
Box starters this weekend at Alice Park. Doesn't get much
bigger than that for someone like to Mighty coming in
as the second choice starting prop for the All Blacks
(16:18):
in the one jumper.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
That's right, And there has been so much talk, hasn't
there this year? I guessed about the dominance of the
All Black scrum. It's been easily the best aspect of
their game. They've used as a weapon where possible. They
couldn't use it against the Pumas in Wellington because there
wasn't a scrum for sixty minutes and that did really
hurt them. It's a facet of their game that they
(16:43):
pride themselves on. But I think the group is a
big loss. But it is interesting to Mighty Williams played
against the box in the World Cup final. Even Fletcher Neul,
the second choice tight haired, made his debut two years
ago at Alice Park. So you know, some young guys
do have experience against the box. But you've also got
(17:06):
to be prepared for eighty plus minutes, don't you. With
the bomb squad, we haven't seen a seven to one
bench I think from the spring box this year. Is
this the week that they'll try it on to try
and you know, really come over the top of the
All Black said altitude.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Well, as much as you as I think you know,
hopefully the All Blacks have been keeping things in reserve.
I'm sure Russia r Astmus has got something up his
sleeve and would not surprise me to see a seven
to one bench, although maybe the depth issues they've got
at Locke might just prevent them doing something like that
this week. They may hold on to that for Cape
Tail and potentially next week. Look a fascinating game, Liam.
(17:42):
In one word, what do the All Blacks need to
do on Sunday morning, New zeal In time to get
the win and go well? I say one nil up
in the series, but you know, beat the spring box
as the primary objective and get some Rugby Championship points.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Look, I think with the box, it all just starts
with physicality. You have to be desperate before you need
to be Basically, you have to start well. You have
to match them physically. It's in the mall defense, it's
at the breakdown where the All Blacks have been a
bit patchy this year. It's whether you're carrying clean and
(18:17):
you know, we've talked a lot about the lack of
dominant ball carriers and that All Blacks packed this year.
They have to go forward to provide that platform because
questions have been asked over to j Pedenara and Damien McKenzie.
And if they don't have that platform and under pressure,
if they can't get out of their own ends as
we saw against the Pumas and Wellington, then they're going
(18:37):
to be in strife. So physicality for me, Elliott, they
just they have to meet fire with fire otherwise they
really don't stand a chance.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
My one word is patience because I don't think we've
seen that enough from the All Blacks this year. Building
attacks inside the red zone of the opposition. That's been
down to some good defense from Argentina also England, but
when they've got they haven't been able to build from
the forty to thirty inside the twenty two and then
trust themselves that they are going to get the reward
there sooner rather than the latter. Want to see that.
(19:06):
On Sunday morning, you hear live commentary on NEWSTALKSZMB, Goldsword
and iHeartRadio from three am. Have a few more thoughts
on that before we go, but time now for a
quick break on Rugby Direct. Thanks to our friends at
Folklift Solutions.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares
howard By News.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Talk time night for our Final four here on Rugby Direct,
as has now become customary, start the final four with
give us a highlight of the NPC or the Far
Apartment Cup. I'm actually going to go first here. I
watched and it's been a rarity in recent weeks. I've
been home on a Sunday afternoon and not working following
up All Black Story or things like that, but watched
(19:53):
two of the games at the same time or crossover.
It was Mutter Word two against Wellington and Otiger playing
Bay of Plenty. Those are two absolutely cracking games that
were close right until the end, plenty of dr in them,
so I thought they were both outstanding games. I thought
(20:13):
Man Over two was about to get Wellington, but they
just the Lions rolled over the top in the last
ten minutes and they've set themselves up for an interesting
week with that bit we've got going Liam. Of course,
next week you're hired of the NPTC Palmback Cup.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yes, I think Ruggy Direct listeners are really hanging out
to see you in alliance.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I've had a few texts, tell me tell you why.
I've had a few texts.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I got to give the punt is what they want.
So no, that's going to be hotly anticipated. That Look,
I think we've talked about previously just how even the
NPC is this year, and we're seeing that with teams
like Auckland, an O and three start for the first
time I think in history. So there's a major union,
a powerhouse province under major pressure. You're seeing, you know, Tasman,
(21:01):
a traditional powerhouse in recent years, to find some real
form and they've got a shield. They've got the next
shield challenge against Hawkspace, so that's going to be an
absolute doozy. Teams like Otago coming to the fore showing
a bit of form as well. So I think it's
nice to see provinces outside the traditional bases really compete
and stand up because this is their time to do it,
(21:23):
and they are doing that this year.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
They certainly are. They certainly are looking forward to the
week ahead and hopeing Canterbury gets up over Wellington top
of two of the final four. Your favorite Alice Park
memory or match, please.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
There's been many fam there, Elliott, but I'm going to
go back to my I think it was my first
time at Alice Park actually, and it's my greatest match
in history. The All Blacks went to Alice Park and
the rugby championship was on the line. The spring Box
needed to score four triers to get five points, so
(21:59):
they actually had a lot of endeavor and gave it
a real crack for their style of rugby at that time.
Bill Black survived two yellow car to lam Messim and
Ben Franks came over the top to win there and
just sitting in those stands feeling a bit like a
(22:20):
fish out of water. With sixty four thousand rabid South Africans,
there's nothing quite like witnessing in All Blacks victory there.
So that's my favorite memory. But there's been many getting
up in the middle of the nights to talked about
today having a mile and a few biscuits back in
the day, and any New Zealand rugby fan would have
done that with their grandfathers or fathers. It's a bit
(22:43):
of a tradition, so I'll be doing that this week
as well.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Absolutely. Look, I'm going to go a bit closer and
say the Crusaders went over the Lions in twenty seventeen
that was outstanding crusaders almost out on their feet by
the very end of the game, it managed to take
the victory. There are several more I could have taken,
perhaps of it. Certainly World Cup Final in ninety five
might have gone a different way than Perhaps that would
have cracks the top spot for me. A couple more
(23:08):
coaching changes and topic three abroad we touched on them.
Mcdonnald obviously at the top, but news out today as
we recorded David nusafora heading for Scotland despite being employed
by Rugby Australia. He's gone to join Scotland and of
rugby type role and Felix Jones also out from the
England setup, which is a real surprise because he's incredibly
(23:29):
highly rated. Big wraps on him when they were down
here recently during their tour, of course, but he's quit
as defense coach. I believe he's still got a notice
period to work out, so he might be a run
for a wee bit longer as yet. But a couple
of big surprises there. So it's funny, isn't Liam. You know?
I guess what a year into the post World Cup
(23:50):
cycle and already there's some movement on the job market.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
There is indeed, this is never a dull moment, and
their rugby world is there. Look, Felix Jones for me
was a massive shock, as you mentioned when England went
down here has rushed defense, caused the all Blacks all
sorts of problems and he was highly regarded at the
spring Box and you know, former Irish international, so that
(24:15):
is a real surprise. And I think their England's highly
regarded strength and conditioning train has been lured to Ireland
as well, So I think what we're seeing is money talks.
I don't know where Felix might pop up, but that's
a massive loss for England. David nusefhora wee bit of surprise,
(24:35):
but his role was as a consultant, so Scotland's curly
puts a head turning offer on the table for him,
and given what he did with Ireland, I think that's
a great get for them. Nusha not universally popular in Ireland,
but given the structures that they've got in place there
(24:55):
with their provinces and the national team, he'd have to
give him a big tick for what he's helped usher
in an Ireland. So a very handy pick up for
Scotland as well.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yes, certainly he's been around the traps and seems to
know how to get those systems in place around the
rug big globe, and there's probably what Scotland needs, I
think just looking at some of the programs they've gone
at the moment and pathways through to their national side
and topic number for your toughest selection for the All
Blacks this week or what changes can you envisage making.
(25:29):
Do you see many changes coming to the All Black
side for Sunday morning Test match?
Speaker 4 (25:35):
I don't you mentioned to Mighty Williams coming into lucid
prop I think Scott Barrett, but again so he'll come
back in the second row, probably alongside too Vay. You
would suspect with Patrick two Polo to not being present there.
The big questions for me are at open side, whether
(25:57):
the All Blacks promote potentially Sam Kine from the bench.
He's very experienced, you know, brings that real physical edge.
I would not be surprised to see that. And on
the left wing, whether Caleb Clark retains his place or
Mark Tala comes back. I think the rest of the
team will be fairly settled. I wouldn't be surprised to
(26:17):
see some of Penny Female perhaps come onto the bench.
I think Bill Blacks will need a bit of size
and physicality, but I think they will largely favor a
settled team, you know, particularly coming after that performance against
the Pumas, which was really convincing in the first half.
At least those starters went out and did the business,
(26:38):
So it would be pretty harsh to drop anyone, even
though Alice Park and the Box is a completely different proposition.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Do you stick with ricae Uani Center?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
I think they will. Yeah, I think he's a guy.
It was a weird sort of two weeks, wasn't it,
the flip flop drop in one week, bringing back the next.
But I think Rico's strength actually, for a guy that's
looked at as an attacking weapon history does actually defensively
(27:10):
and that's where I think Angelina Brown paid the price
for that Wellington test tea. I think he fell off
four tackles and at test level that's really costly. So
I think they will stick with Rico. What about you?
You would you pick Sam Kaines? Do you think they will?
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Well? I actually would, look, I think I mentioned a
couple weeks ago. I'd be quite end to see Ardisavim
to open so flank and Wallace to Tez at number eight.
That would have been against Sergeancy. I don't think that's
a change to make for this week. I think Sam
Kaine's a player you want. People say, well, he's leaving
in the year, but so is TJ Petnara, and he's
you would say, lucky to start this week as well.
(27:44):
I think you packed the side that is going to
win you the Test match, not the one that you
want to win a Test match with in twenty twenty five.
So for me, Sam Kaine, you want that physicality, you
want that brute strength of his and the amount of
tackles that he'll be able to get through. I think
you need everything that he can possibly deliver. So i'd
make that change. Maybe Dlden bubble Lee he comes off
(28:06):
the bench, or yet look at a fee now for
some explosiveness. But that certainly seems like one change that
the All Black Selectors could Tampa with. That team is
out around dinner time New Zealand on Thursday. Of course,
the game three eight in New Zealand time. You'll hear
it on News Talk ZMB, Goldsport and our Heart Radio.
You can follow it on indied hero dot cot or
(28:27):
India and all the analysis after that as well. Liam
My thanks to you as always for jumping on and
joining us on Rugby Director. I've been awake for more
than twenty four hours now, so it might be time
for a week nine eyes.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
You get some rice, get over to Nelson Mandela Square,
get a hearty steak and have some bullt on this
week and save you that atmosphere because there's nothing in
world Roagby like it.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Elliott looking forward to it. Thank you very much, Liam,
and thanks to Dan good One for putting this podcast together.
It has been Rugby Direct. Thanks to our friends at
Access Solutions lifting you and your business to a higher level.
We will see you next week
Speaker 1 (29:11):
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Yet inside the game from every angle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Forklift Solutions, lifting you
and your business to a higher level. Time to reconvene
on the podcast, I've shot myself over to Johannesburg. Liam,
You're back at home kitchen giving a watch on what
has been a dramatic few days in All Blacks. Developments
came out last Thursday, and this has been the story
(00:46):
of the week, hasn't it, The Leon McDonald departure from
the All Blacks after just five test matches. I guess
before we get into what it means your initial reaction
when that news dropped around lunchtime on.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Thursday, Well, certainly dramatic, wasn't it, Elliott? As you mentioned there,
I don't think anybody really saw that coming. There was,
you know, few whispers that maybe there were too many messages,
too many coaches. Well then the All Black scroup and
we've seen them be very scratchy and patchy this year
and heard a few whispers about maybe some tension in
(01:21):
the coaching group, but as you say, certainly five tests
into the year, nobody really expected such a dramatic departure
so early into the year, so early into Scott Robertson's
coaching tenure, having just formed this group, What.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Does I guess do for Yeah, I know you've just
been on the phone call with Jason Ryan and Tupo Vie.
But I suppose the cohesion of the management staff. But
I know they've made the decision to sort of make
things more cohesive. But it's got to be an initial joke,
doesn't it. So the way they prepare for this Test
match against South Africa.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
It's a major disruption, isn't it. If you take a
step back, and I guess look at it from from
a structure point of view. Lelio McDonald was the All
Blacks attack coach and I think that's where the issues
have One of the areas where the issues have arisen
from Leon is known has been quite a structured attack coach,
(02:20):
having formulas in place, and him and Scott Robinson are
both headstrong characters and things have clearly come to a
head from there. But from a structured point of view
for the All Blacks, Scott Hansen has been running the
All Blacks defense. He now has to flip entirely and
assume the attack brief. Tommody Allison, who was in the
(02:45):
All Blacks coaching group on a part time basis, is
a contact coach, is now leading the national team's defense.
You know, a well regarded, highly regarded coach, Tombody Allison.
But to be parachuted into that role straight to test
level is a huge ask in any sort of week,
(03:08):
let alone one where you're going up against the spring
box at Eden Park. So from your point of view,
how much of a disruption as Leanne McDonald's departure and
how do you think how and why do you think
it's come about so swiftly?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah? I think this is the fascinating thing is that
they've decided five weeks in that there's not getting any better.
It's going to remain this way. That they're so diametrically opposed.
And I suppose, I suppose it's one thing, you know,
putting together a coaching staff on paper, it's another one
actually living it out and being a living, breathing coaching
team in the world of rugby. And you know Leon
(03:47):
last week Doneder Scott Robertson in twenty seventeen, that was
when he was as an assistant departed there, took some
time off with family that ended up as the Blues's
assistant originally and ended up as the head coach there
soon afterwards. But I guess maybe you know, there's if
there was some tension between the two, perhaps there was
a disagreement in the past that maybe Scott Robertson reverted
(04:08):
to the fact that actually just a good rugby coach
and once we get into all Black camp we'll be
able to figure these things out. But it does seem
like they're so diametrically opposed and the way they want
to play and coach rugby that it can't be resolved.
I think it is a disruption all of a sudden. Yes,
you're removing Lean McDonald and perhaps sharpening up or getting
(04:29):
a bit more cohesive and some of the messaging, but
you're also switching around some of the key briefs of
the team. You know, Scott Hansen on the defense side
of things moves to the attack as you mentioned, and
the time to yell Allison change as well. I think
it has to be disruptive there for Scott Hansen to
be preparing for the next four years really, because you
know he's going to be sorting out the defense of
the coach and then get the message the week after that.
(04:51):
For the at least the next year, he's going to
be looking at the attack of the side. So I
think there's no way for it to not be disruptive
in the All Blacks environments and the key for them
is how they move on past it and try and
get the results this weekend.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Yeah, I just want to pick up like couple of
points you make there about twenty seventeen and when Leon
was at the Crusaders, and my understanding there is that
there was actually a falling out around Leon's relationship with
Brad Moore and Leon moving back to Nelson. At the
time he said it was to be closer to family,
(05:28):
but he's obviously aspirational as well and wanting to be
a head coach and that came about from the Blues.
So clearly this is not the first time there's been
tension between Scott Robertson and Lea McDonald And the fact
of the matter is they've had twelve months to get
on the same page. And as you mentioned, you know,
(05:48):
there is a difference between coaching on paper and living
and breathing it in an All Black environment when you
have a shot gloss at home to the Pumas, and
obviously some difficulties getting past England as well. But Scott
Robinson was appointed head coach of the All Blacks in
March last year, and this was always going to be
his coaching team as far back as the year before
(06:10):
when he was sounded out to take over from me
and Foster. So he knew his coaching team so far out.
How did he not envision some form of issues, you know,
so to me to make this change. You know, they've
been applauded for their ability to you know, make this
decision so swiftly and not let it hang over the
(06:33):
team and drag out for the rest of the year.
And I think there is some truth to that, but
I also think that this just shouldn't have happened given
the long lead in time that they had, so to me,
it is a bit of an early black eye for
Scott Robinson's tenure. The only other point I'd make is
this is not the there's a bit of symmetry here
isn't there Because two years ago when the All Blacks
(06:55):
were in Johannesburg, they went through similar coaching up people
following their first home series loss to Ireland, and Jason
Ryan came in as All Black Spord's coach replaced John
Plumtree for the tests Allie Parks. So very spooky, sort
of similar circumstances there.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
It certainly is. I guess a couple more things that
I want to touch on before we let this topic go. Look,
did Leon McDonald get a payout? I guess it's the question.
And does it have a restraint of trade to stop
and coaching international teams abroad for a certain period of
time will be I don't think that was asked of
Chris Lendrim. I haven't heard it clarified in recent days.
(07:34):
That's that's something I think is still sticking out and
probably needs to answered.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Yeah, my understanding is Leon was contracted for four years
as All Black's assistant coach, and while the negotiations of
his exit will be confidential, I have heard that he
got paid out for as much as two years. So
I've also been apparently head coaches of Super rugby teams
(08:05):
get paid anywhere from three hundred fifty thousand dollars, So
you can do the math on a potential payout there.
No one will really know other than Leon what the
terms and conditions around that, but he would have definitely
got a payout. He wouldn't have walked away empty handed.
And I doubt that there is a restraint of trade
(08:26):
because you know he's walking away as a free agent.
I don't think you can put too many caveats around that,
particularly given the circumstances. So you know, maybe Joe Schmidt
taps them up, gives them a phone call. They've got
a strong relationship. They work together at the Blues Purse
with Schmidt Men's touring him, then Schmidt coming on board
(08:50):
as an assistant coach. So in terms of Leon's future,
you'd have to think it does lie potentially with another
international team abroad, because does he really want to go
back to coaching.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Super Rugby keeps some of those financial figures you're plucking
out there limb of sort of rugby director presenter salaries
that we're talking about. Finally, the other one I want
to throw at you is will the All Blacks look
for a long term replacement? Now this set up that
we've touched on a couple of times is going to
be in place. It's seemingly for the rest of the year.
But I guess once they get through these fourteen tests
(09:23):
this year, they can sort of reassess and see where
the holes are and see if they need to cover
things up. So I suppose the jury's out there. But
once your gutfield and do you think they'll look to
replace him on a full time basis next year or
will these two changes have made sort of cover it.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
It's a very interesting question. I'm not sure. I think
long term they probably would look to replace them. But
there's got to be some financial considerations here, given the
payouts that the All Blacks have made in recent years,
not just to Leon but to pray More and John
Plumtree as well.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
So I under.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
That's some big figures.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yes, some big figures that have been talked about. I
guess do you put someone of the mix that may
not necessarily work as well or do you trust that
these two And you know, Tamothy Alison long Bent outed
as a probable Crusader's coach head coached from twenty twenty six.
If he's to stay on permanently, with the all Blacks
that goes out the window as well, So all sorts
(10:28):
of threads to this story which is still developing and
still bubbling away as we get into test week in
the Republic. But that's where I want to turn the
attention to now on Ragpy Director Test Week in South Africa,
All Blacks and South Africa. Now, by the time you
hear this Russia Rasmus as he usually does naming his
team a Tuesday local time, the whispers are that even
(10:49):
ead Sabeth is likely arts, which adds to locking crisis
for the spring Box, which is about four or five deep.
Franco Mosta not playing Luda Yaga even eat Sabeth in
the mix as well, so they're right down on their
numbers in the second row. But Jee, there's nothing actually
going like an all Black South Africa teaste doesn't.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Limb doesn't get any b or earlier, and there's been
some amazing moments over there is that haven't there And
nothing quite compares to Alice Park, the Springbok spiritual home, altitude,
just the atmosphere around it, the team bus rolling in
getting pelted with fruit back in the day, not so
(11:32):
much anymore, but it really is a magical experience and
it is an arena that brings out the All Blacks best.
They've actually got a phenomenal record there in recent times.
I think they've won something like three of their past
four Tests at Alice Park and you only have to
go back two years to that response that saved Ian
(11:54):
Foster's coaching career with the All Black student. It's coming
one week after Mombala where they were completely outplayed, and
the Springboks are in great shape, aren't they. They're a
better team now than they were at the World Cup,
with Tony Brown coming on board and evolving their attacking game.
Jason Ryan noted some little evolutions in their line out moves.
(12:20):
Certainly you've seen that with the depth of their back
line play and some of their ability to use the
ball on the air, and they've just got phenomenal depth.
They rotated throughout that series in Australia two Tests against
the Wallabies and they did it comfortably despite making I
think it was ten starting or ten changes to their
squad between Brisbane and Perth, and that's something they've done
(12:43):
over the past four years. So this is a huge
challenge for the All Blacks. You know, disruption aside with
the assistant with Leo McDonald leaving, they have been really
patchy this year, so they've got everything to prove this
week I.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Do, and it's got interesting to see whether things have
been left in the tank and set moves whatever. You know,
what do you think have been left in the tank?
Because I know the on McDonald go on, but what
four sorry five tests inst did Jason Holns tenure of
strip play coach and really haven't seen too many stripe
players from the All Blacks so far in his tenure.
(13:19):
So interesting to see what is cooking this weekend. The
spring Box go in his favorites and it's been a
rarity in recent times. I guess how much will the
World Cup final last year way on some of these
players from the All Blacks perspective that are going out
in there and playing this test match this weekend.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's an interesting dynamic, is that, because you've had a
lot of post World Cup departures, particularly for the All Blacks,
but there is a real core group that did feature
in that final and had so many different experiences against
the All Blacks in recent tie against the spring Box.
Sorry you look at that Twickenham game that that record defeat.
(14:00):
Jason Ryan talked about how much he learned from that
in terms of the physicality that the spring Box brought
to blow the All Black away that night. Look, I
don't think any All Black ever gets over losing a
World Cup final, no matter what the circumstances are. You've
got Sam Cain in that group. Of course, you know
the red card in that final. As you know, he
(14:22):
mentioned that's something he's going to have to live with forever.
But that hurt lingers for any All Black and it's
not something that they'd get over. So I don't know
if it's something they'd necessarily talk about, but it's something
that would be prevalents in their minds. What about the Springboks,
do you think they are more confident than they've ever
(14:46):
been when it comes to facing the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, I do. I think they genuinely are. That they've
won their last two, including a World Cup final against them,
and I think there's a sense that the All Blacks
sort of the lower EBB now than they have been
for quite some time in terms of a block of
say five five or so years, not just this year's
All Blacks, but say you pass it out and go.
This is the tw twenty twenty two, twenty four class
(15:11):
versus the twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen and backwards after that.
So I think there is a sense that, you know,
the spring Box have had the upper hand in recent years,
but the All Blacks have always done quite well, regardless
of the coach and who it is, of getting themselves
up for the big games. There was the one hundredth
Tests and twenty twenty two, there was sorry twenty three
(15:33):
one I think it was. There was you know, other
tests along the way that they've managed to get up for.
Obviously I didn't get up for a World Cup final,
but you know the Alice Park won with the backs
against the wall a couple of years ago. There's you know,
they have history of being able to get up for
big occasions. They got up to draw on everything they
possibly can. This week again Ethan de Grout out. He's
(15:56):
been left behind with that neck injury of his He
was originally expected to travel ruled out, so to Mighty
Williams gets another crack and certainly the biggest match of
his career, you know, scrummaging against one of the spring
Box starters this weekend at Alice Park. Doesn't get much
bigger than that for someone like to Mighty coming in
as the second choice starting prop for the All Blacks
(16:18):
in the one jumper.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
That's right, And there has been so much talk, hasn't
there this year? I guessed about the dominance of the
All Black scrum. It's been easily the best aspect of
their game. They've used as a weapon where possible. They
couldn't use it against the Pumas in Wellington because there
wasn't a scrum for sixty minutes and that did really
hurt them. It's a facet of their game that they
(16:43):
pride themselves on. But I think the group is a
big loss. But it is interesting to Mighty Williams played
against the box in the World Cup final. Even Fletcher Neul,
the second choice tight haired, made his debut two years
ago at Alice Park. So you know, some young guys
do have experience against the box. But you've also got
(17:06):
to be prepared for eighty plus minutes, don't you. With
the bomb squad, we haven't seen a seven to one
bench I think from the spring box this year. Is
this the week that they'll try it on to try
and you know, really come over the top of the
All Black said altitude.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Well, as much as you as I think you know,
hopefully the All Blacks have been keeping things in reserve.
I'm sure Russia r Astmus has got something up his
sleeve and would not surprise me to see a seven
to one bench, although maybe the depth issues they've got
at Locke might just prevent them doing something like that
this week. They may hold on to that for Cape
Tail and potentially next week. Look a fascinating game, Liam.
(17:42):
In one word, what do the All Blacks need to
do on Sunday morning, New zeal In time to get
the win and go well? I say one nil up
in the series, but you know, beat the spring box
as the primary objective and get some Rugby Championship points.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Look, I think with the box, it all just starts
with physicality. You have to be desperate before you need
to be Basically, you have to start well. You have
to match them physically. It's in the mall defense, it's
at the breakdown where the All Blacks have been a
bit patchy this year. It's whether you're carrying clean and
(18:17):
you know, we've talked a lot about the lack of
dominant ball carriers and that All Blacks packed this year.
They have to go forward to provide that platform because
questions have been asked over to j Pedenara and Damien McKenzie.
And if they don't have that platform and under pressure,
if they can't get out of their own ends as
we saw against the Pumas and Wellington, then they're going
(18:37):
to be in strife. So physicality for me, Elliott, they
just they have to meet fire with fire otherwise they
really don't stand a chance.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
My one word is patience because I don't think we've
seen that enough from the All Blacks this year. Building
attacks inside the red zone of the opposition. That's been
down to some good defense from Argentina also England, but
when they've got they haven't been able to build from
the forty to thirty inside the twenty two and then
trust themselves that they are going to get the reward
there sooner rather than the latter. Want to see that.
(19:06):
On Sunday morning, you hear live commentary on NEWSTALKSZMB, Goldsword
and iHeartRadio from three am. Have a few more thoughts
on that before we go, but time now for a
quick break on Rugby Direct. Thanks to our friends at
Folklift Solutions.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares
howard By News.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Talk time night for our Final four here on Rugby Direct,
as has now become customary, start the final four with
give us a highlight of the NPC or the Far
Apartment Cup. I'm actually going to go first here. I
watched and it's been a rarity in recent weeks. I've
been home on a Sunday afternoon and not working following
up All Black Story or things like that, but watched
(19:53):
two of the games at the same time or crossover.
It was Mutter Word two against Wellington and Otiger playing
Bay of Plenty. Those are two absolutely cracking games that
were close right until the end, plenty of dr in them,
so I thought they were both outstanding games. I thought
(20:13):
Man Over two was about to get Wellington, but they
just the Lions rolled over the top in the last
ten minutes and they've set themselves up for an interesting
week with that bit we've got going Liam. Of course,
next week you're hired of the NPTC Palmback Cup.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yes, I think Ruggy Direct listeners are really hanging out
to see you in alliance.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I've had a few texts, tell me tell you why.
I've had a few texts.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I got to give the punt is what they want.
So no, that's going to be hotly anticipated. That Look,
I think we've talked about previously just how even the
NPC is this year, and we're seeing that with teams
like Auckland, an O and three start for the first
time I think in history. So there's a major union,
a powerhouse province under major pressure. You're seeing, you know, Tasman,
(21:01):
a traditional powerhouse in recent years, to find some real
form and they've got a shield. They've got the next
shield challenge against Hawkspace, so that's going to be an
absolute doozy. Teams like Otago coming to the fore showing
a bit of form as well. So I think it's
nice to see provinces outside the traditional bases really compete
and stand up because this is their time to do it,
(21:23):
and they are doing that this year.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
They certainly are. They certainly are looking forward to the
week ahead and hopeing Canterbury gets up over Wellington top
of two of the final four. Your favorite Alice Park
memory or match, please.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
There's been many fam there, Elliott, but I'm going to
go back to my I think it was my first
time at Alice Park actually, and it's my greatest match
in history. The All Blacks went to Alice Park and
the rugby championship was on the line. The spring Box
needed to score four triers to get five points, so
(21:59):
they actually had a lot of endeavor and gave it
a real crack for their style of rugby at that time.
Bill Black survived two yellow car to lam Messim and
Ben Franks came over the top to win there and
just sitting in those stands feeling a bit like a
(22:20):
fish out of water. With sixty four thousand rabid South Africans,
there's nothing quite like witnessing in All Blacks victory there.
So that's my favorite memory. But there's been many getting
up in the middle of the nights to talked about
today having a mile and a few biscuits back in
the day, and any New Zealand rugby fan would have
done that with their grandfathers or fathers. It's a bit
(22:43):
of a tradition, so I'll be doing that this week
as well.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Absolutely. Look, I'm going to go a bit closer and
say the Crusaders went over the Lions in twenty seventeen
that was outstanding crusaders almost out on their feet by
the very end of the game, it managed to take
the victory. There are several more I could have taken,
perhaps of it. Certainly World Cup Final in ninety five
might have gone a different way than Perhaps that would
have cracks the top spot for me. A couple more
(23:08):
coaching changes and topic three abroad we touched on them.
Mcdonnald obviously at the top, but news out today as
we recorded David nusafora heading for Scotland despite being employed
by Rugby Australia. He's gone to join Scotland and of
rugby type role and Felix Jones also out from the
England setup, which is a real surprise because he's incredibly
(23:29):
highly rated. Big wraps on him when they were down
here recently during their tour, of course, but he's quit
as defense coach. I believe he's still got a notice
period to work out, so he might be a run
for a wee bit longer as yet. But a couple
of big surprises there. So it's funny, isn't Liam. You know?
I guess what a year into the post World Cup
(23:50):
cycle and already there's some movement on the job market.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
There is indeed, this is never a dull moment, and
their rugby world is there. Look, Felix Jones for me
was a massive shock, as you mentioned when England went
down here has rushed defense, caused the all Blacks all
sorts of problems and he was highly regarded at the
spring Box and you know, former Irish international, so that
(24:15):
is a real surprise. And I think their England's highly
regarded strength and conditioning train has been lured to Ireland
as well, So I think what we're seeing is money talks.
I don't know where Felix might pop up, but that's
a massive loss for England. David nusefhora wee bit of surprise,
(24:35):
but his role was as a consultant, so Scotland's curly
puts a head turning offer on the table for him,
and given what he did with Ireland, I think that's
a great get for them. Nusha not universally popular in Ireland,
but given the structures that they've got in place there
(24:55):
with their provinces and the national team, he'd have to
give him a big tick for what he's helped usher
in an Ireland. So a very handy pick up for
Scotland as well.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yes, certainly he's been around the traps and seems to
know how to get those systems in place around the
rug big globe, and there's probably what Scotland needs, I
think just looking at some of the programs they've gone
at the moment and pathways through to their national side
and topic number for your toughest selection for the All
Blacks this week or what changes can you envisage making.
(25:29):
Do you see many changes coming to the All Black
side for Sunday morning Test match?
Speaker 4 (25:35):
I don't you mentioned to Mighty Williams coming into lucid
prop I think Scott Barrett, but again so he'll come
back in the second row, probably alongside too Vay. You
would suspect with Patrick two Polo to not being present there.
The big questions for me are at open side, whether
(25:57):
the All Blacks promote potentially Sam Kine from the bench.
He's very experienced, you know, brings that real physical edge.
I would not be surprised to see that. And on
the left wing, whether Caleb Clark retains his place or
Mark Tala comes back. I think the rest of the
team will be fairly settled. I wouldn't be surprised to
(26:17):
see some of Penny Female perhaps come onto the bench.
I think Bill Blacks will need a bit of size
and physicality, but I think they will largely favor a
settled team, you know, particularly coming after that performance against
the Pumas, which was really convincing in the first half.
At least those starters went out and did the business,
(26:38):
So it would be pretty harsh to drop anyone, even
though Alice Park and the Box is a completely different proposition.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Do you stick with ricae Uani Center?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
I think they will. Yeah, I think he's a guy.
It was a weird sort of two weeks, wasn't it,
the flip flop drop in one week, bringing back the next.
But I think Rico's strength actually, for a guy that's
looked at as an attacking weapon history does actually defensively
(27:10):
and that's where I think Angelina Brown paid the price
for that Wellington test tea. I think he fell off
four tackles and at test level that's really costly. So
I think they will stick with Rico. What about you?
You would you pick Sam Kaines? Do you think they will?
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Well? I actually would, look, I think I mentioned a
couple weeks ago. I'd be quite end to see Ardisavim
to open so flank and Wallace to Tez at number eight.
That would have been against Sergeancy. I don't think that's
a change to make for this week. I think Sam
Kaine's a player you want. People say, well, he's leaving
in the year, but so is TJ Petnara, and he's
you would say, lucky to start this week as well.
(27:44):
I think you packed the side that is going to
win you the Test match, not the one that you
want to win a Test match with in twenty twenty five.
So for me, Sam Kaine, you want that physicality, you
want that brute strength of his and the amount of
tackles that he'll be able to get through. I think
you need everything that he can possibly deliver. So i'd
make that change. Maybe Dlden bubble Lee he comes off
(28:06):
the bench, or yet look at a fee now for
some explosiveness. But that certainly seems like one change that
the All Black Selectors could Tampa with. That team is
out around dinner time New Zealand on Thursday. Of course,
the game three eight in New Zealand time. You'll hear
it on News Talk ZMB, Goldsport and our Heart Radio.
You can follow it on indied hero dot cot or
(28:27):
India and all the analysis after that as well. Liam
My thanks to you as always for jumping on and
joining us on Rugby Director. I've been awake for more
than twenty four hours now, so it might be time
for a week nine eyes.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
You get some rice, get over to Nelson Mandela Square,
get a hearty steak and have some bullt on this
week and save you that atmosphere because there's nothing in
world Roagby like it.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Elliott looking forward to it. Thank you very much, Liam,
and thanks to Dan good One for putting this podcast together.
It has been Rugby Direct. Thanks to our friends at
Access Solutions lifting you and your business to a higher level.
We will see you next week
Speaker 1 (29:11):
For more from Newstalk set B listen live on air
or online and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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