September 14, 2025 • 42 mins
This week on Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier dive into the All Blacks' worst ever defeat - 43-10 to South Africa in Wellington - and ask what went wrong and perhaps more importantly, why lessons aren't being learned.
We debate everything from whether the coaching set-up is right to whether the All Blacks gave up in the last quarter against the Springboks.
We also wrap the Black Ferns' World Cup quarter-final win against a daring South Africa.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
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Speaker 2 (00:20):
Dry disc.
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Speaker 1 (00:28):
Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct power by Excess Solutions, elevating you
and your business to a higher level. Elliott Smith News
Talks be lead Rugby commentator with me as always for
at least this week.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
He is about to swam off overseas for.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
A week.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Sabbatical.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Liam Napier is back with us and Liam we records.
In the wake of the All Blacks worst ever defeat
Hands of the spring Box in the Capital, It's hard
to really zero in on exactly what went wrong apart
from everything, so I guess your initial top line thoughts
(01:21):
as the All Blacks contemplate just being absolutely walloped by
the spring Box.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Yes, Elliott's it was the sun rose today, but it
was a dark day, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Across the country.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
As you mentioned, the All Blacks heaviest defeat, their largest
loss at home, the most points conceded in the second half.
South Africa scoring thirty six unanswered points, five second half tries,
and I think most who witnessed that game were stunned, really,
and I can't remember in my time as a journalist
(01:57):
or even as a fan of the game watching are
worse thirty minutes from the All Blacks. And I think,
to really illustrate that further, hordes of New Zealand fans
at the Capton left early. I have never ever seen
that at a home All Blacks test in my life.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
No, it was what I think about eleven minutes ago
when Coaga Smith made it twenty nine ten, if memory serves,
locked up from our commentary position and saw that fans
were leaving in droves. Really, and you're right, I can't
recall an instance like that in New Zealand in the
rugby history, and that should send a message to the
(02:36):
All Blacks players, the All Blacks coaches New Zealand Rugbig
that what they delivered was not good enough across that
eighty minutes. And it's hard to because naturally we're going
to zero in on the All Blacks because we're in
New Zealand podcast. When New Zealand journalists the spring Box
were utterly outstanding. They beat the All Blacks in every
(02:57):
facet of the game. They deserved to win by that
score line, but naturally we're zeroing in on the All
Blacks and going what on Earth went wrong? At ten
to seven and a half time, it felt like the
All Blacks obviously they were hit on the score, but
it felt like they was still didn't have really have
momentum in the game, felt like they were playing from
behind a little bit. They were struggling to get the
(03:19):
scrum going, but they were in the contest and they've
given themselves a freers chance heading into the second spell
with that three point lead at the break. But the
spring Boks just went up a level after halftime and
the All Blacks simply couldn't go with them. They were
clinging on, it felt like for a period of time
and then basically just went under the water and didn't
come back up well.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
There was a massive turning point in that first half
when Chesl and Colby gets interset. I think it's about
the twenty fourth minute. Billy Proctor had two men outside
of some Parker and Lee roy Card. I think they're
pretty much marked and the All Blacks attack at that
point is just starting to really click. That created the
Lee Roy Cartera's first test try with sweeping movements across
(04:02):
the field, backs and forwards linking some really nice interplay
and that was a fourty point momentum swing and it
really did felt feel like the All Blacks just couldn't
get a grip of the game from then on the
spring box in that first half that I think they
had something like seventy three percent territory, but the same
issues blunted their game. They couldn't we couldn't finish their
(04:26):
opening try through R. G. Snyman was ruled out for
a couple of knock ons at the base. But then
they really got into their work in the second after
they and I think we've got a PAUSEEV and just
touch on the spring box because it was such a
drastic shift in style and it was a big risk.
(04:50):
After Eden Park, Razi went all in on his veterans
at Eden Park. Then he made seven starting changes that
back line. I think they had something like one hundred
and seventy three caps. Boden Barrett and Jordi Barrett had
more caps between them than the whole Springbok back line.
So it's a hell of a show of faith in
in youth in the next generation, and then the spring
(05:11):
Box had to actually cope with a number of different injuries.
They lost their fullback Fussy, they lost their starting first five.
Sasha Rhinanuk came and went, but Damien Willimpson was the
key to that Springbox game and the way they played
the off floading that the width, the ball movement. We
haven't seen the Springbox play successfully like that for a
(05:35):
long time, and it did feel like a real turning
point for the Box and the way that they will
now go forward.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
It felt like the game plan that Tony Brown was
trying to implement at Alice Park that didn't quite come
to pass, or at least did for thirty forty minutes
of that game and then fell apart in the second spell.
It felt like that was the fruits of that labor.
That was a bit more understanding of what they were
trying to do, a bit more confidence in the game plan,
and they just overran the All Blacks and by the
end of it, they were running rings around the All Blacks.
(06:02):
The All Blacks look fatigue, that looked tired, and by
the eightieth minute, the spring Box, who had to dip
into the bench. Did you said early, we're looking the
fresher team, looking at the more confident team. They played
with pace and power and just ran over the All
Blacks into submission.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Well, there's been Springbok performances in recent times where they've
overpowered the All Blacks or won through their physicality or
their ability under the high ball and their kicking game.
But they tore the All Blacks two shreds. They did
an All Blacks to the All Blacks almost and the
fundamentals were still there. They did a number on the
All Black scrum. Jason Ryan came out and said, after
(06:41):
the big tight head at Eden Park that will never
happen again. Well, the All Black scrum did not improve.
The All Blacks lineout imploded, particularly when Brody McAllister came
off the bench, and there was some weird tactical decisions
around where they were throwing at that time, which probably
didn't help him. But the Springboks just feasted on the
(07:03):
All Blacks mistakes. They grew in confidence and then in
that last twenty minutes when the Springboks are running rampant,
I think you've got a question. Not necessarily the All
Blacks effort, but the heads dropped, and you should never
see that from the All Blacks. Some of their defense
was feeble. They missed forty six tackles.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, which is unacceptable for an All Black.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
So they missed forty in Buenos aidis remembory off the
top of my head, though obviously careering to a defeat
at that point in the game, but to blow it
out to a record margin I thought was really poor.
The game was done probably before Quagasmith made it what
twenty nineteen, late in the game, with about eleven minutes
to go, but to con see two more tries Simon
(07:45):
Estehesen in the closing stages, the heads did drop, and
that is inexcusable, I think from an all Black side. Yes,
if you're going to lose, lose with your heads held high,
with some valor, with something, with some pride in your performance.
But if anything, they basically switched off and resigned themselves
to the defeat.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Well, look at the first half.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Look at Jordi Barrett's sack on Cheslin Colby, Try savor.
That's the sort of effort, the benchmark effort, that you
expect from all Black teams, regardless of the score. Regardless
of the occasion, regardless of the opposition, And I don't
think we saw that.
Speaker 5 (08:22):
And you're right.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
It comes down to pride, pride in your performance, pride
in the jersey. And you know, the All Blacks are
built up and sold around the world. Is this mythical
beast that's you know, has history and legacy. Well, that
sort of standards damages the brand massively.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
It does.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And there's been two of these sort of defeats in
recent years thirty five to seven in London in twenty
twenty three under a different coaching set up. Now this
performance over the weekend forty three to ten and winning,
you know, is what this legacy of the All Blacks
is built on. Every team is going to lose, but
their record is something they sell around the globe, and
(09:08):
to lose by that margin creates ripples, creates headlines, and
I think it could do damage to the All Blacks brand,
just if we go away from that topic, just from
the game itself for just a moment. I think these
losses do hurt the All Black's reputation around the globe.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Well, yeah, of course it does, because the All Blacks
brand's built on excellence, on innovation on leading the world.
And I think if you look at a couple of
weeks ago, the All Black swe number one in the world,
while you and I and most rugby followers question that,
and I think we're now seeing the reason why, because
(09:45):
if you broaden the context out, the patchy form of
this All Black team has been in the spotlight going
right back to July. Really against the French team that
was significantly under strength, they pulled out one performance against
the weakest French team of that whole series. Then they
go one on one in Argentina, pull out of performance
(10:08):
at Eden Park when they're backs to the wall when
the occasion demanded it Artie Severe's hundredth and they spoke
so much about getting back to that same mental level.
Maybe they focused on that too much, I'm not too sure.
But to then lose to the spring Books again the
following week, that they're consistently inconsistent, and for a coaching team,
(10:30):
that sort of suggests to me that they're being found out.
They've been worked out, that teams are playing them once,
playing them twice, and they're not showing them enough different pitches.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
No, and this isn't just a Robertson era issue for
the All Blacks. It goes back to the Foster era
and even the latter stages of the Hanson era where
there were a few losses and obviously culminated in that
defeat it to England in twenty nineteen. But it feels
like the All Blacks have been stagnant for a number
of years now and this is through different coaches. So
(11:03):
is that the players that are the issue? Is that
the coaching is not up to standard? Is is it
a bit of both?
Speaker 5 (11:10):
I think it's a bit of everything.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
And look, we also have to have a bit of
perspective test rugby, isn't it is an incredibly competitive beast.
No team in this Rugby Championship has won back to
back games. They're all two and two, So what a
tournament from a neutral's perspective. But the All Blacks, as
(11:32):
we've sort of touched on here, they've built their whole ethos,
their brand around being number one, around being excellent, and
they demand the highest of standards and they've come back
to the pack massively and I think that was maybe
always going to happen, But there's some real question marks
around areas of their game that aren't improving and haven't
(11:55):
improved for some time, and the flip flop of.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Results around leadership, coaching innovation.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
You know, the All Blacks, where's the number WI We've
seen a little bit of that and the set piece
plays that came off at Eden Park, but we're not
seeing it often enough. I think it was quite telling
that the All Blacks winn at Eden Park with Wayne
Smith and that coaching group and then have a massive
step backwards when he's not there the following week.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Indeed, looking at some of those stats last night, yes,
Sava Boss the territory, the All Blacks couldn't play in
the right areas of the ground. They didn't have enough
quality ball, They were suffocated and they were often going
backwards when they did get their opportunities. And for an
All Blacks team, they need to be able to swing momentum.
(12:46):
And they had a moment in the second spell where
it felt like they needed a little we win, little
moment just to try and hook back in and get
back into the Test match. They got a penalty, they
had a lineer in s Afogo's twenty two and then
walls the tea. He gets penalized off the back of
that for obstruction, the pressure of vlve way off the
(13:10):
string looks just as the All Blacks were trying apply
some heat for the first time of the game. It
was those little things that the All Blacks just weren't
able to get right. But then the issues compounded over
the course of the game. And for me, I think
the issue with the All Blacks is that once they
get put on the back foot this team, they can't
seem to find a way to get on the front
foot again. And that's an intangible, it's an unknown thing,
(13:31):
but you can kind of sense it watching the game.
Is that when they put under pressure for long periods
of time, there's no one looking for, you know, playing
for territory, playing for a fifty twenty two, trying to
lift the team and swing the momentum. It feels like
they're almost resigned to, you know, playing and trying to
call their way back to the surface when it's simply
(13:52):
not working.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Yeah, it's a very fair observation. The lack of composure
I think we've seen when things aren't going their way.
And I think about Argentina, the loss over there and
the way in which that train inspired with a late
try to Somersny Takyaho and then a yellow card to
sever Reese and then some botched line outs again down
(14:17):
the stretch. That lack of composure, the lack of clinical finishing.
You mentioned that the line out there, but also Will
Jordan a couple of moments there was a sweeping movement
he went through and I'm not sure if he was
trying to hit Billy Procter on the outside, but his
pass has gone long, it falls at Leroy Carter's feet
(14:37):
and the opportunity goes begging. Then late in the match,
Will Jordan reaches out and grounds the ball before the line.
So deal Black's had chances, But it's the ability that
you talking about to wrestle the momentum back. And yeah,
it's difficult against the team as big and powerful and
in this case as skillful and ambitious as the spring
(15:01):
Box were. But you need your on field leaders to
stand up. You need somebody to grab the game and
change the momentum to pull off a big play, and
we're not seeing that from the All Blacks when they're
really under the pump.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
No we're not.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Aerially they'll put under pressure again in that match. I
don't know what the issue is well, I do not
what the issue is they can't catch. I don't know
why they haven't been able to fix it or find
fixes to it. It seems like every team in the
world now knows that's the way to strike fear into
the All Blacks is by going to the skies and
putting the All Blacks under pressure, because you know they're
(15:40):
going to cake it under that high ball more often
than not. And these are some good players that are
just seemingly incapable of catching high balls, and they've trained it,
They've put a lot of effort into training. Doesn't seem
to be fixing anything that's on that side of the ball.
But it's also when the All Blacks go aerial themselves,
I don't think they're getting enough distance or height from
(16:01):
their own kicks. They keep them low, they don't get
a lot of distance on them, whereas our start we
saw Money Libbock and a couple of other spring box
because go really high, you know there's a lot of
hangtime on those. It creates the indecision around it and
puts pressure on We're not seeing that from the All Black.
So I think on both sides of the aerial game,
they've got a hell of a lot to fix.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
It feels very akin to two thousand and nine, when
I think it was the ELVs experimental law variations came
in and the kicking was very prevalent. And we're at
that point in rugby at the moment where World Rugby
have clamped down on escorts and anyone surrounding the jumper,
and the All Blacks aren't coping with it.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
They haven't made their adjustments.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Maybe it's a technical thing, maybe it's tact tactical, but
they're not getting it right.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
I think.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Not selecting Caleb Clark has been a big glaring mistake
for me. He's your best aerial exponent on the edge.
I'm not saying he's going to come in and solve
the issue overnight, but he's tall, he's great in the air,
not just under the high ball, but from kickoffs as well.
Often gets the restarts back, So I think he has
(17:14):
to come into the frame and whatever the All Blacks
are doing at training with Paul noodles in their faces
or what's the crash pad where we're jumping up, it's
not working. So maybe we've talked previously about a mike
the kick or some specialized outside help. I'm not sure
(17:35):
if that's the answer, but I think also we're seeing
here the fact that wingers and outside backs aren't necessarily
exposed to this in Super rugby. It's not part of
Super rugby, isn't really the kicking is not as prevalent.
So the All Blacks have been exposed there. But it's
(17:57):
not just one issue. Is it that that's one element?
But there are several parts of their game that aren't
improving week to week.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
No, they're not.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Lineout was shambles late in the game. Brady McAllister came
on and the line out felder bits. The hooker gets
a lot of the blame for that, and it's the
way it goes. But you'd have to seriously question whether
McAllister gets another All Blacks opportunity.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
It's twice now, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
He came off the bench in Hamilton in the third
French Test and miss first three throws. So yeah, there's
a number of different moving parts to a lineout, but
there's a real common theme there.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
There is scrum time. You touched on it earlier, but
the All Blacks said they worked on it. They put
a lot of resource into it this week, Well, it
didn't look like it. And the problem being is that
I know they got a scrum penalty at least once
last night, but when you start painting those pictures to
the referee, it's very hard to unshow them to the
(19:00):
referee and he's seeing momentum going one way or the
other and they were going backwards and so it's very,
very hard to get back into that contest. But the
All Blacks have prided themselves over on their scrum the
last couple of years. Well, it feels like I've taking
a massive leap backwards in that part of the game
over the last.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Couple of weeks.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Yeah. I think it's widely recognized that South Africa's the
best scrummaging team and wild Rugby ox Niche is the
if not the then one of the best scrummages in
the world game, and the All Blacks have really struggled
to match that. And tyro A Lomax was promoted to
try and shore up that scrum and he had some success,
(19:39):
but the All Blacks were very much on the back
foot throughout that game. It looked like they were basically
trying to get the ball in and out as quickly
as possible, and they were back peddling most of the time.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
So it's a key focus for.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Jason Ryan and it will be a real source of
dented pride because the set piece is the best attacking
strike platform in the game at the moment defenses have
to set back. We saw the All Blacks have that
success there at Eden Park, and when you set pieces
under pressure, it's really hard for any elements of your
(20:13):
of your game to come together.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Try try ten sixty every tackle, get up again.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Before time.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
It's Rugby Direct.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
It's interesting just seeing a lot of the comments around
the game last night and some of the reactions from
commentators and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And we've just come back from the airport and you
said Mills Mooley and I.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Said this, I Kiaran Reid said a couple of critical
comments postgame last night as well. Apparently you know something
along the lines of there is something wrong inside this team.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
How do you fix that?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
I guess is the question.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Well, I think we're at the point now and it's
not knee jerk because we're eighteen months into Scott Robertson's tenure,
and I think from the outset there were question marks
about the inexperience at test level of this coaching team,
the balance of it in terms of forwards.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
And backs, and just how it's operating as well.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
And I think there are serious question marks about that
that coaching team.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
But how do you think it's functioning well?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
It's not functioning well enough.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
We can accept that Test rugby the gap has closed,
but you can't accept a record defeat. And you can't
accept that lessons aren't being learned week to week and
the same mistakes are being made, and the lack of
attacking penetration isn't there and the defensive lapses aren't there.
We saw South Africa play with pace and power and
accuracy last night and all facets of the game. They
(21:59):
blasted the All Blacks at ruck time, they were strongest
set pieces we've touched on. When they had ball in hand,
it felt like they were paying it a pace at
the just couldn't keep up with. And now the All
Blacks have talked about wanting to play at pace and
play with accuracy and play fast. Well, Spring Walks did
that last night, and so I would Haste. I would
question whether the game plan is the right one for
(22:22):
the all Blacks that they're trying to use at the moments.
I think I'm not sure whether they've got too many
cooks in the kitchen around their structure and their attacking
play and everything like that, but whether they've got the
right people in those places. Because you look at the strongbox,
they've got a huge coaching staff. You've got Jako Piper
(22:42):
is the refereeing consultant and he's out there meeting with
the referees and everything like that. Dwayne Vermullin is their
breakdown specialist. Essentially, they've got any number of coaches, so
I don't think it's too many. Potentially, I think it's
the right cooks in the kitchen, and Dora say it,
I think they're lacking and this would be a big
step for New Zealand rugby, but you know they're lacking
(23:04):
some overseas experience to come in and tell it how
it is and how the rest of the world's playing,
and how the rest of the world looks at rugby
and looks at New Zealand, because it feels like New
Zealand's fallen behind. You know, we export a lot of
coaches overseas and they're on high demand. Don't get me wrong,
but it feels like you actually need some of that
outsider perspective. And now I don't know who's available and
(23:25):
who's got the kind of CV that would be the
Ronanagara is probably quite happy at stard Rochelle for example,
brother and coming in being a member of the All
Blacks coaching stuff. But you look at the spring Box.
Jerry Flannery is involved there, the irishman Tony Brown part
of that stuff as well. They've got a healthy number
of South Africans there, but they've got a whole lot
of perspectives that allow them to try and figure out
(23:49):
the best game plan to utilize these strengths. And I
think it'd be pig headed to suggest that New Zealand
is the epicenter of rugby and that the five or
six key members of that All Blacks coaching stuff, you know,
other best people for the job.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Yeah, that's a valid point.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
I know. I'll give you a lot of stick about
the cruse and all that sort of thing as well,
But on a genuine note here, I think the worry
for me is it's quite a close shop there and
from what I understand of that coaching team, it is
now a very close shop, tight knit crew between Hanson,
(24:28):
Scott Robertson and Jason Ryan. Those guys aren't necessarily hugely
worldly in their coaching experience, particularly in a test rugby arena.
Where's the discerning voices you talk about the spring box.
If you think about Russia, Russumus and Tony Brown, They're
almost coming from polar opposite views, aren't they. Tony Brown's
(24:50):
the attacking mind, the innovation. Russ's very much that old
school Springbok rugby well that came together on Saturday night.
And just in terms of the wider All Blacks coaching team,
Jason Hollins that the strike coach, how much, say, does
he actually get in the attack with Scott Hansen, I'm
(25:11):
not too sure. Tammody Ellison's been elevated very quickly into
a contact defensive role. Is he ready for that brief
when you look around the world at test rugby's defensive coaches.
So look, with a performance like this, the spotlight goes
on everyone, but it does start at the top and
(25:32):
it's that patchy form outside of this one off result
that that's probably almost more worrying for the All Blacks
that they can't string together back to back performances, that
they need an occasion or emotion to get to a
certain level, and that they are being figured out that
they're not progressing.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
And so.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Scott Robinson when he got the job, knew his coaching
team a long way out, didn't he. We've seen change
with Liam McDonald moved on and in previous regimes were
then Foster. We saw how much of an movements a
change in assistance can have. So I don't expect to
see change yet. But this is a very live discussion
(26:18):
and I don't think it's as simple as beat the
Wallabies at Eden Park and everything's right again. Because we've
seen this flip flop nature of the All Blacks. We
need to see some consistency, some improvement before this coaching
team sort of out of the woods.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, I think it's important to suggest that this isn't
knee jerk stuff. What we saw at sky Stadium was
I guess the culmination of this stop start, hot, cold
All Blacks performance that again, it's not just the Scott
Robertson area era, but it's basically been going back, you
(26:54):
know since twenty twenty, if not slightly before then around
two steps for one step back. We saw the Island
defeat in twenty twenty two. We saw them go to
South Africa and lose and then win and save Foster's job.
We saw you know, the All Blacks Mount Smart Stadium
in twenty twenty three again to spring Box. Then three
four weeks later they lose in London before the World
(27:17):
Cup to a record score and the NC. Yeah, that
game didn't matter, but it's symptomatic of where the All
Blacks have been over the last five or six years,
is that there's been no stake in the ground, right,
this is the way we play now, and this is
the way we play consistently. There's been just any number
of steps forward and then following week week after whatever
it might be won, two steps backwards.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Yeah. I think we're also seeing just how much of
a step up it is from super rugby.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
We see that with players, yep, look at Billy Proctor.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
He has been the best center in Super rugby for
at least two years and hasn't made the step up
to Test rugby. And I think we're seeing that with
coaching as well. Look at the influence that Joe Schmidtz
had on the Wallabies. He's a guy that's took transformed.
(28:07):
Irish came in and my mind was the driving force
behind the All Blacks transformation.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Then he goes to the Wallabies.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
So test experience matters whether you're a player or a coach,
and I think we're seeing those floors born out in
this All Black coaching team.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Indeed, just before we wrap up this half of the podcast,
I guess we'll get into selection discussion next week. You'll
be away, but I guess probably a good chance for
you to say, now, you know, where do you go
to for eden Park? From an All Blacks perspective, you know,
it felt like last night players that played well at
(28:47):
eden Park went backwards. Felt like it feels like when
Artie Sava plays well, the All Blacks play well. He
didn't play well last night. Cody Taylor will come back
in for eden Park. Can Roygard apparently Progression really well,
so there's two changes there as well. Billy Proctor, I
(29:10):
don't know. I thought perhaps even his best Test match
last night, but I'm not even sure that's enough to
save his Josey for the next seast was leicsterfying a
Nooku on the horizon. Leroy Carter, we just mentioned him,
you know, debuting. I thought he had a solid debut.
But do you make sweeping changes for eden Park and
really try and send a message.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
What's the approach here them?
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Yeah, I think we will see some change here. Scott
Robertson retain the faith for eden Park, but with the
patche form, I think he's going to have to pull
a few levers and that could be less defying a
noooko at center. I think cam Rouygar makes a massive difference.
You go from effectively fin Lay Christie because he played
(29:55):
seventy odd minutes of that game after Nahopam has injured
his ankle could be gone for the year, the other
ankle so very sad setback for him in his comeback game.
But fin Lay Christie to cam Rougard's I mean you're
jumping like twenty rungs in the half back qu In
the world game regards attacking influences, booming left boots will
(30:18):
have a massive impact. You mentioned Cody Taylor there. Caleb
Clark has to come back in for me. Potentially you
could switch Lee Ricarda to the right wing. I don't
see any reason why he couldn't do that. Defensively, He's
probably got a bit of work to do. But that's
right across the board. For this All Black team, will
Jordan probably goes back to fullback the forward pack. Look,
(30:41):
they fronted physically against the box. It's a matter maybe
it's a technical thing. Maybe to Mighty Williams he wasn't
great off the bench, but he could perhaps come in
and start. But the Orblick's actually there's not too many
players outside that squad that you could go to, is there.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
No, that's the thing, isn't it. You know, these are
the players that I think consensus wise, you might quibble
over a player here all there, but are regarded as
the best player in the country.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
You know, Hoskinstitutor still has his fans.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Dalton Papolli still has his fans, but it's not like
they're banging down the door at the moment either to
be picked out of the NPC.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
The All Blacks have had a look at.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Them and discarded them.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Luke Jacobson's a player that for me has you know,
been at Tesla for five or six years now. I
can't see him, you know, really ever, being you know,
a first choice All Blacks loose forward. So it's a
matter of these players that are there just have to
basically deliver, isn't it It is?
Speaker 4 (31:43):
And for the coaching team to bring out the best
in them.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
That's that's their role.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
And yeah, there's other guys like Peter Luckeye or a
few others on the fringe, but they're not really massive
game changing shift the needle type selections, are they, So
it's up to the All Blacks to drill down and
find some quick fixes. What did you make of Scott
(32:13):
Robinson's reaction to all this? Because he's not great after
a defeat, he needs some time to process it, to
analyze the game, maybe rewatch it. So immediately postmatch didn't
offer a lot, but even one day on from that,
reasonably calm and composed, certainly no sense of panic despite
(32:35):
being in charge of the biggest defeat in All Black's history,
which is another unwanted record on the first defeat at Argentina.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
So yeah, do you think is.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
It a matter of projecting calm while there's maybe a
sense of panic behind closed doors? Watch a sort of
read on how he's approached the post mortem.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I think he's just an outwardly calm person in his
dealings with the media and tries to keep it a
level head whatever's thrown at him. We've seen him passionate
in the coach's box during games when they cut two
shots of him there, so they're clearly there is a
passion for this team, and I don't doubt there is
a passion behind what he does and the decisions he
makes of the team. I don't think he conveys that
(33:16):
necessarily though when he does speak to media. I think
it takes a while for him to collect his thoughts
on the games and exactly what went wrong. But I
guess you've got to almost reflect the public mood in
a way, regardless of what your own mood is and
what you're trying to convey. You almost have to go, well,
the public wants to see this, so I have to
(33:37):
do it. It's like being a politician in a time
of crisis. Whatever, what does the public want to see?
What does the public need to see from me this?
And you have to pivot to that persona regardless of
whether it suits you, whether it regardless of whether you
feel like you're playing a character or whatever it might be.
You almost have to just go this is what the
public needs to see from me for this moment in time.
(33:59):
I'm going to deliver it. And we saw Russi Erasmus
when they got beaten by the Wallabies at Alice Park
last month. I was listening back to the medi conference
this morning. You know he said it was as dog
shit and you know most all Blacks fans would have
described that performance at sky Stadium as dog shit. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Look, Robinson said he was probe today at the airport
when we were there about it, and he didn't really
go far enough. For me, I think there needs to
be a bit more blunt transparency. Honestly, we weren't good enough.
We didn't get it right. It's unacceptable just that that's
the sort of public messaging that I think fans can accept.
(34:41):
We'll get behind and rather than yeah, there's only a
couple of things and we'll draw down into them and
then everything will be hunky dory.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
It was a bit yeah, but once over lightly.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
For me, well, it'll be a vacuum of all Blacks
noise for the next few days because they're dispersed, and
we'll come back in next weekend to build for the Bledislow.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
I've got two quick questions for you, all right, who
wins Rugby Championship from here?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
I think South Africa two tests. Importantly, they don't have
to go to Argentina. That Test is being played at
in Twickenham. If they had to go to Argentina with
a travel that's on a tricky way to go from
South Africa.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
I think they.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Probably went out against the Argentina and take both of
those games. With all due respect to Los Pomas, I
just think it's a hard road for them to get
to this point. So I hope South Africa winning it
from the all back. So I think we'll do enough
against the Wallabies. Wallaby's third and probably Argentina fourth.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
But it's tight it is, and look that could be
a real stake in the ground performance from South Africa.
It felt like a generational swing and it's going to
be fascinating to see what Russia Rasmus does now he rested, dropped.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
Whatever way you want to term it.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
Damien de Linde, Jesse Crele ebenez Tebeth, Willie LaRue.
Speaker 5 (36:08):
Are they done and dusted? Does he bring some of
them back?
Speaker 4 (36:11):
Because you look at the way Damian Willenson played at
twelve and then and then fallback. How do you drop
a guy like that after that performance and some of
those proven box veterans are not capable of playing in
that manner.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
No, but I think it's the horses for courses now
for us Erasmus and what he's done over the last
two games has gone we can play this way, we
can play that, and yep, you'll be able to pick
which way we're playing by the players we select. But
you know you got to try and defend it. And
I think that's a scary thing for opposition teams is
now the Sprinklers have found depth and not only personnel
(36:49):
but their game plans. And there's not a lot of
teams that I don't think in the world at the
moment that have a way to stop that.
Speaker 5 (36:56):
Bill Lex are vulnerable.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Is this the best Wallabies chance at claiming the Bledders
though in five six plus.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Years, Yep, I think it is. We've seen the All
Blacks get a little bit bullied in recent times. I'm
not sure the Wallabies have the players like South Africa
to do that. I think if it gets into a
running game, the All Blacks should be better. If it
gets into a Ford contest, the All Blacks should be better.
(37:27):
But the Wallabies are playing entertaining and attacking rugby at
the moment and when they get a roll on, they're
very hard to stop. We saw that at Alice Park.
We saw it last week in that game in Townsville
where they came back from that deficit. We saw it
in the game yesterday where they came back from a
huge deficit as well and almost full ste a victory
(37:50):
despite a full pass. So they're they're close, the Wallabies,
so I think it is their best chance.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
What say you?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (37:57):
I don't see them winning both games to win the
Bletters though, but I can see them getting won. And
what I would say about the Wallabies is there is
a real depth of character about their team. We saw
that Alice Park. We've seen that in those other comebacks.
They believe in themselves and they know the way they
want to play. They've got some phenomenal athletes and Joseph
(38:18):
Sui Lee the well led by Harry Wilson, and I
think they come over here unburdened, with a bit fearless
and they'll have a real crack And Joe Schmidt will
know this all black team well, so it's.
Speaker 5 (38:37):
Going to be bloody interesting to see how that pans out.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Indeed it is.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Before we go, let's talk the Black fans and South Africa.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Look.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
South Africa put the Black Funds under some real pressure
early on in that game, ten all at halftime, the
Black fans just a little bit too good after halftime,
but a wee bit of a scare from the women's
box side, who have risen dramatically in the world rankings
over the last couple of years. But the Black fans
(39:07):
just doing what they're needed to do after halftime. I
think Scott Robinson said this morning is almost the inverse
of their game from last night. How do you feel
their place for Canada next week? Giving Canada just wipe
the floor with Australia overnight, Probably.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
A bit nervous, I think interesting to see the Black
woman having fifteen man mauls and following their male counterparts
of that sort of innovation. I thought the Black Ferns
was very, really strong defensively and that when they eventually
got some ball that they scored some nice tries, but
they were on the back foot for large parts of
(39:44):
that match and yeah, semi final. This is when the
tournament starts, isn't it. So I think I'm a wee
bit nervous for that game.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Well, Canada beat them last year, drew with them earlier.
This year, they've been put under Preshia Georgia Miller was
subbed off early in that game this morning, I think tactically,
but also probably to keep her on eyes for a
semi final once they got to a twenty points to
ten lead. She's talismatic for that team. But I thought
Alana Bremner started really really well overnight. A couple of
(40:13):
rampaging runs, a strong leadership across the park midfields and
is Shoe as well. With Amy Duplas ruled out of
the tournament, set a final on Waka Setafara went off overnight.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
So great comeback from a couple of Wilson Baker as well.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
So there's gonna be interesting reselection mixed four of the
Black Ferns this week and how they figure things out.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
But we look forward to.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
That game against Canada and yeah, let's fingers crossed that
the Black Fans get to a World Cup final.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Oh yeah, thoughts of that final three four years ago? Now,
that was an absolute doozy, so hoping for a rematch.
That'll be hell of an occasion, wouldn't it on English soil?
Speaker 3 (40:52):
It would be indeed that I'll about to us for
rugby direct. But it's important to reflect on the ran
for the shield result before we do wrap up Canterbury
keeping it saved by the bell George Bell after the
siren gets them home, keeps the shield and it's rifle
home only sort of last two or three minute this
game once we go back from the airport, but topsy turvy.
The shields alive though, and for the first time in
(41:14):
four weeks it doesn't change provinces.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Yeah, great effort from the Marco and it's not what
the nation needed, is it?
Speaker 5 (41:21):
The shield stage? So the dark day continues.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
No, that was the sun coming through. I think Liam,
you'll find thank you ver much as always. Liam, you
are off next week, not to heal the voice, but
over aweys in America.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So have a good break.
Speaker 5 (41:41):
Yeah, cheers, try and find some rest.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Yeah, that's why we didn't have a podcast again last week.
We just thought we'd get Liam to rest the vocal cords.
Thanks to last and bars English. We will catch you
next week.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Where Are We?
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Joined by Nick Bubley, who's going to slot in four
next week's podcast, we will catchure them. Thanks to access
solutions elevating you and your business to.
Speaker 5 (41:59):
A higher level.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
For more from News Talks B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our Wide Ranger podcast now on iHeartRadio, Strike
down the Middle of.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Dry disc.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Try these.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct power by Excess Solutions, elevating you
and your business to a higher level. Elliott Smith News
Talks be lead Rugby commentator with me as always for
at least this week.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
He is about to swam off overseas for.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
A week.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Sabbatical.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Liam Napier is back with us and Liam we records.
In the wake of the All Blacks worst ever defeat
Hands of the spring Box in the Capital, It's hard
to really zero in on exactly what went wrong apart
from everything, so I guess your initial top line thoughts
(01:21):
as the All Blacks contemplate just being absolutely walloped by
the spring Box.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Yes, Elliott's it was the sun rose today, but it
was a dark day, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Across the country.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
As you mentioned, the All Blacks heaviest defeat, their largest
loss at home, the most points conceded in the second half.
South Africa scoring thirty six unanswered points, five second half tries,
and I think most who witnessed that game were stunned, really,
and I can't remember in my time as a journalist
(01:57):
or even as a fan of the game watching are
worse thirty minutes from the All Blacks. And I think,
to really illustrate that further, hordes of New Zealand fans
at the Capton left early. I have never ever seen
that at a home All Blacks test in my life.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
No, it was what I think about eleven minutes ago
when Coaga Smith made it twenty nine ten, if memory serves,
locked up from our commentary position and saw that fans
were leaving in droves. Really, and you're right, I can't
recall an instance like that in New Zealand in the
rugby history, and that should send a message to the
(02:36):
All Blacks players, the All Blacks coaches New Zealand Rugbig
that what they delivered was not good enough across that
eighty minutes. And it's hard to because naturally we're going
to zero in on the All Blacks because we're in
New Zealand podcast. When New Zealand journalists the spring Box
were utterly outstanding. They beat the All Blacks in every
(02:57):
facet of the game. They deserved to win by that
score line, but naturally we're zeroing in on the All
Blacks and going what on Earth went wrong? At ten
to seven and a half time, it felt like the
All Blacks obviously they were hit on the score, but
it felt like they was still didn't have really have
momentum in the game, felt like they were playing from
behind a little bit. They were struggling to get the
(03:19):
scrum going, but they were in the contest and they've
given themselves a freers chance heading into the second spell
with that three point lead at the break. But the
spring Boks just went up a level after halftime and
the All Blacks simply couldn't go with them. They were
clinging on, it felt like for a period of time
and then basically just went under the water and didn't
come back up well.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
There was a massive turning point in that first half
when Chesl and Colby gets interset. I think it's about
the twenty fourth minute. Billy Proctor had two men outside
of some Parker and Lee roy Card. I think they're
pretty much marked and the All Blacks attack at that
point is just starting to really click. That created the
Lee Roy Cartera's first test try with sweeping movements across
(04:02):
the field, backs and forwards linking some really nice interplay
and that was a fourty point momentum swing and it
really did felt feel like the All Blacks just couldn't
get a grip of the game from then on the
spring box in that first half that I think they
had something like seventy three percent territory, but the same
issues blunted their game. They couldn't we couldn't finish their
(04:26):
opening try through R. G. Snyman was ruled out for
a couple of knock ons at the base. But then
they really got into their work in the second after
they and I think we've got a PAUSEEV and just
touch on the spring box because it was such a
drastic shift in style and it was a big risk.
(04:50):
After Eden Park, Razi went all in on his veterans
at Eden Park. Then he made seven starting changes that
back line. I think they had something like one hundred
and seventy three caps. Boden Barrett and Jordi Barrett had
more caps between them than the whole Springbok back line.
So it's a hell of a show of faith in
in youth in the next generation, and then the spring
(05:11):
Box had to actually cope with a number of different injuries.
They lost their fullback Fussy, they lost their starting first five.
Sasha Rhinanuk came and went, but Damien Willimpson was the
key to that Springbox game and the way they played
the off floading that the width, the ball movement. We
haven't seen the Springbox play successfully like that for a
(05:35):
long time, and it did feel like a real turning
point for the Box and the way that they will
now go forward.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
It felt like the game plan that Tony Brown was
trying to implement at Alice Park that didn't quite come
to pass, or at least did for thirty forty minutes
of that game and then fell apart in the second spell.
It felt like that was the fruits of that labor.
That was a bit more understanding of what they were
trying to do, a bit more confidence in the game plan,
and they just overran the All Blacks and by the
end of it, they were running rings around the All Blacks.
(06:02):
The All Blacks look fatigue, that looked tired, and by
the eightieth minute, the spring Box, who had to dip
into the bench. Did you said early, we're looking the
fresher team, looking at the more confident team. They played
with pace and power and just ran over the All
Blacks into submission.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Well, there's been Springbok performances in recent times where they've
overpowered the All Blacks or won through their physicality or
their ability under the high ball and their kicking game.
But they tore the All Blacks two shreds. They did
an All Blacks to the All Blacks almost and the
fundamentals were still there. They did a number on the
All Black scrum. Jason Ryan came out and said, after
(06:41):
the big tight head at Eden Park that will never
happen again. Well, the All Black scrum did not improve.
The All Blacks lineout imploded, particularly when Brody McAllister came
off the bench, and there was some weird tactical decisions
around where they were throwing at that time, which probably
didn't help him. But the Springboks just feasted on the
(07:03):
All Blacks mistakes. They grew in confidence and then in
that last twenty minutes when the Springboks are running rampant,
I think you've got a question. Not necessarily the All
Blacks effort, but the heads dropped, and you should never
see that from the All Blacks. Some of their defense
was feeble. They missed forty six tackles.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, which is unacceptable for an All Black.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
So they missed forty in Buenos aidis remembory off the
top of my head, though obviously careering to a defeat
at that point in the game, but to blow it
out to a record margin I thought was really poor.
The game was done probably before Quagasmith made it what
twenty nineteen, late in the game, with about eleven minutes
to go, but to con see two more tries Simon
(07:45):
Estehesen in the closing stages, the heads did drop, and
that is inexcusable, I think from an all Black side. Yes,
if you're going to lose, lose with your heads held high,
with some valor, with something, with some pride in your performance.
But if anything, they basically switched off and resigned themselves
to the defeat.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Well, look at the first half.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Look at Jordi Barrett's sack on Cheslin Colby, Try savor.
That's the sort of effort, the benchmark effort, that you
expect from all Black teams, regardless of the score. Regardless
of the occasion, regardless of the opposition, And I don't
think we saw that.
Speaker 5 (08:22):
And you're right.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
It comes down to pride, pride in your performance, pride
in the jersey. And you know, the All Blacks are
built up and sold around the world. Is this mythical
beast that's you know, has history and legacy. Well, that
sort of standards damages the brand massively.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
It does.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And there's been two of these sort of defeats in
recent years thirty five to seven in London in twenty
twenty three under a different coaching set up. Now this
performance over the weekend forty three to ten and winning,
you know, is what this legacy of the All Blacks
is built on. Every team is going to lose, but
their record is something they sell around the globe, and
(09:08):
to lose by that margin creates ripples, creates headlines, and
I think it could do damage to the All Blacks brand,
just if we go away from that topic, just from
the game itself for just a moment. I think these
losses do hurt the All Black's reputation around the globe.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Well, yeah, of course it does, because the All Blacks
brand's built on excellence, on innovation on leading the world.
And I think if you look at a couple of
weeks ago, the All Black swe number one in the world,
while you and I and most rugby followers question that,
and I think we're now seeing the reason why, because
(09:45):
if you broaden the context out, the patchy form of
this All Black team has been in the spotlight going
right back to July. Really against the French team that
was significantly under strength, they pulled out one performance against
the weakest French team of that whole series. Then they
go one on one in Argentina, pull out of performance
(10:08):
at Eden Park when they're backs to the wall when
the occasion demanded it Artie Severe's hundredth and they spoke
so much about getting back to that same mental level.
Maybe they focused on that too much, I'm not too sure.
But to then lose to the spring Books again the
following week, that they're consistently inconsistent, and for a coaching team,
(10:30):
that sort of suggests to me that they're being found out.
They've been worked out, that teams are playing them once,
playing them twice, and they're not showing them enough different pitches.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
No, and this isn't just a Robertson era issue for
the All Blacks. It goes back to the Foster era
and even the latter stages of the Hanson era where
there were a few losses and obviously culminated in that
defeat it to England in twenty nineteen. But it feels
like the All Blacks have been stagnant for a number
of years now and this is through different coaches. So
(11:03):
is that the players that are the issue? Is that
the coaching is not up to standard? Is is it
a bit of both?
Speaker 5 (11:10):
I think it's a bit of everything.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
And look, we also have to have a bit of
perspective test rugby, isn't it is an incredibly competitive beast.
No team in this Rugby Championship has won back to
back games. They're all two and two, So what a
tournament from a neutral's perspective. But the All Blacks, as
(11:32):
we've sort of touched on here, they've built their whole ethos,
their brand around being number one, around being excellent, and
they demand the highest of standards and they've come back
to the pack massively and I think that was maybe
always going to happen, But there's some real question marks
around areas of their game that aren't improving and haven't
(11:55):
improved for some time, and the flip flop of.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Results around leadership, coaching innovation.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
You know, the All Blacks, where's the number WI We've
seen a little bit of that and the set piece
plays that came off at Eden Park, but we're not
seeing it often enough. I think it was quite telling
that the All Blacks winn at Eden Park with Wayne
Smith and that coaching group and then have a massive
step backwards when he's not there the following week.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Indeed, looking at some of those stats last night, yes,
Sava Boss the territory, the All Blacks couldn't play in
the right areas of the ground. They didn't have enough
quality ball, They were suffocated and they were often going
backwards when they did get their opportunities. And for an
All Blacks team, they need to be able to swing momentum.
(12:46):
And they had a moment in the second spell where
it felt like they needed a little we win, little
moment just to try and hook back in and get
back into the Test match. They got a penalty, they
had a lineer in s Afogo's twenty two and then
walls the tea. He gets penalized off the back of
that for obstruction, the pressure of vlve way off the
(13:10):
string looks just as the All Blacks were trying apply
some heat for the first time of the game. It
was those little things that the All Blacks just weren't
able to get right. But then the issues compounded over
the course of the game. And for me, I think
the issue with the All Blacks is that once they
get put on the back foot this team, they can't
seem to find a way to get on the front
foot again. And that's an intangible, it's an unknown thing,
(13:31):
but you can kind of sense it watching the game.
Is that when they put under pressure for long periods
of time, there's no one looking for, you know, playing
for territory, playing for a fifty twenty two, trying to
lift the team and swing the momentum. It feels like
they're almost resigned to, you know, playing and trying to
call their way back to the surface when it's simply
(13:52):
not working.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Yeah, it's a very fair observation. The lack of composure
I think we've seen when things aren't going their way.
And I think about Argentina, the loss over there and
the way in which that train inspired with a late
try to Somersny Takyaho and then a yellow card to
sever Reese and then some botched line outs again down
(14:17):
the stretch. That lack of composure, the lack of clinical finishing.
You mentioned that the line out there, but also Will
Jordan a couple of moments there was a sweeping movement
he went through and I'm not sure if he was
trying to hit Billy Procter on the outside, but his
pass has gone long, it falls at Leroy Carter's feet
(14:37):
and the opportunity goes begging. Then late in the match,
Will Jordan reaches out and grounds the ball before the line.
So deal Black's had chances, But it's the ability that
you talking about to wrestle the momentum back. And yeah,
it's difficult against the team as big and powerful and
in this case as skillful and ambitious as the spring
(15:01):
Box were. But you need your on field leaders to
stand up. You need somebody to grab the game and
change the momentum to pull off a big play, and
we're not seeing that from the All Blacks when they're
really under the pump.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
No we're not.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Aerially they'll put under pressure again in that match. I
don't know what the issue is well, I do not
what the issue is they can't catch. I don't know
why they haven't been able to fix it or find
fixes to it. It seems like every team in the
world now knows that's the way to strike fear into
the All Blacks is by going to the skies and
putting the All Blacks under pressure, because you know they're
(15:40):
going to cake it under that high ball more often
than not. And these are some good players that are
just seemingly incapable of catching high balls, and they've trained it,
They've put a lot of effort into training. Doesn't seem
to be fixing anything that's on that side of the ball.
But it's also when the All Blacks go aerial themselves,
I don't think they're getting enough distance or height from
(16:01):
their own kicks. They keep them low, they don't get
a lot of distance on them, whereas our start we
saw Money Libbock and a couple of other spring box
because go really high, you know there's a lot of
hangtime on those. It creates the indecision around it and
puts pressure on We're not seeing that from the All Black.
So I think on both sides of the aerial game,
they've got a hell of a lot to fix.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
It feels very akin to two thousand and nine, when
I think it was the ELVs experimental law variations came
in and the kicking was very prevalent. And we're at
that point in rugby at the moment where World Rugby
have clamped down on escorts and anyone surrounding the jumper,
and the All Blacks aren't coping with it.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
They haven't made their adjustments.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Maybe it's a technical thing, maybe it's tact tactical, but
they're not getting it right.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
I think.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Not selecting Caleb Clark has been a big glaring mistake
for me. He's your best aerial exponent on the edge.
I'm not saying he's going to come in and solve
the issue overnight, but he's tall, he's great in the air,
not just under the high ball, but from kickoffs as well.
Often gets the restarts back, So I think he has
(17:14):
to come into the frame and whatever the All Blacks
are doing at training with Paul noodles in their faces
or what's the crash pad where we're jumping up, it's
not working. So maybe we've talked previously about a mike
the kick or some specialized outside help. I'm not sure
(17:35):
if that's the answer, but I think also we're seeing
here the fact that wingers and outside backs aren't necessarily
exposed to this in Super rugby. It's not part of
Super rugby, isn't really the kicking is not as prevalent.
So the All Blacks have been exposed there. But it's
(17:57):
not just one issue. Is it that that's one element?
But there are several parts of their game that aren't
improving week to week.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
No, they're not.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Lineout was shambles late in the game. Brady McAllister came
on and the line out felder bits. The hooker gets
a lot of the blame for that, and it's the
way it goes. But you'd have to seriously question whether
McAllister gets another All Blacks opportunity.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
It's twice now, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
He came off the bench in Hamilton in the third
French Test and miss first three throws. So yeah, there's
a number of different moving parts to a lineout, but
there's a real common theme there.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
There is scrum time. You touched on it earlier, but
the All Blacks said they worked on it. They put
a lot of resource into it this week, Well, it
didn't look like it. And the problem being is that
I know they got a scrum penalty at least once
last night, but when you start painting those pictures to
the referee, it's very hard to unshow them to the
(19:00):
referee and he's seeing momentum going one way or the
other and they were going backwards and so it's very,
very hard to get back into that contest. But the
All Blacks have prided themselves over on their scrum the
last couple of years. Well, it feels like I've taking
a massive leap backwards in that part of the game
over the last.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Couple of weeks.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Yeah. I think it's widely recognized that South Africa's the
best scrummaging team and wild Rugby ox Niche is the
if not the then one of the best scrummages in
the world game, and the All Blacks have really struggled
to match that. And tyro A Lomax was promoted to
try and shore up that scrum and he had some success,
(19:39):
but the All Blacks were very much on the back
foot throughout that game. It looked like they were basically
trying to get the ball in and out as quickly
as possible, and they were back peddling most of the time.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
So it's a key focus for.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Jason Ryan and it will be a real source of
dented pride because the set piece is the best attacking
strike platform in the game at the moment defenses have
to set back. We saw the All Blacks have that
success there at Eden Park, and when you set pieces
under pressure, it's really hard for any elements of your
(20:13):
of your game to come together.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Try try ten sixty every tackle, get up again.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Before time.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
It's Rugby Direct.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
It's interesting just seeing a lot of the comments around
the game last night and some of the reactions from
commentators and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And we've just come back from the airport and you
said Mills Mooley and I.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Said this, I Kiaran Reid said a couple of critical
comments postgame last night as well. Apparently you know something
along the lines of there is something wrong inside this team.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
How do you fix that?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
I guess is the question.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Well, I think we're at the point now and it's
not knee jerk because we're eighteen months into Scott Robertson's tenure,
and I think from the outset there were question marks
about the inexperience at test level of this coaching team,
the balance of it in terms of forwards.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
And backs, and just how it's operating as well.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
And I think there are serious question marks about that
that coaching team.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
But how do you think it's functioning well?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
It's not functioning well enough.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
We can accept that Test rugby the gap has closed,
but you can't accept a record defeat. And you can't
accept that lessons aren't being learned week to week and
the same mistakes are being made, and the lack of
attacking penetration isn't there and the defensive lapses aren't there.
We saw South Africa play with pace and power and
accuracy last night and all facets of the game. They
(21:59):
blasted the All Blacks at ruck time, they were strongest
set pieces we've touched on. When they had ball in hand,
it felt like they were paying it a pace at
the just couldn't keep up with. And now the All
Blacks have talked about wanting to play at pace and
play with accuracy and play fast. Well, Spring Walks did
that last night, and so I would Haste. I would
question whether the game plan is the right one for
(22:22):
the all Blacks that they're trying to use at the moments.
I think I'm not sure whether they've got too many
cooks in the kitchen around their structure and their attacking
play and everything like that, but whether they've got the
right people in those places. Because you look at the strongbox,
they've got a huge coaching staff. You've got Jako Piper
(22:42):
is the refereeing consultant and he's out there meeting with
the referees and everything like that. Dwayne Vermullin is their
breakdown specialist. Essentially, they've got any number of coaches, so
I don't think it's too many. Potentially, I think it's
the right cooks in the kitchen, and Dora say it,
I think they're lacking and this would be a big
step for New Zealand rugby, but you know they're lacking
(23:04):
some overseas experience to come in and tell it how
it is and how the rest of the world's playing,
and how the rest of the world looks at rugby
and looks at New Zealand, because it feels like New
Zealand's fallen behind. You know, we export a lot of
coaches overseas and they're on high demand. Don't get me wrong,
but it feels like you actually need some of that
outsider perspective. And now I don't know who's available and
(23:25):
who's got the kind of CV that would be the
Ronanagara is probably quite happy at stard Rochelle for example,
brother and coming in being a member of the All
Blacks coaching stuff. But you look at the spring Box.
Jerry Flannery is involved there, the irishman Tony Brown part
of that stuff as well. They've got a healthy number
of South Africans there, but they've got a whole lot
of perspectives that allow them to try and figure out
(23:49):
the best game plan to utilize these strengths. And I
think it'd be pig headed to suggest that New Zealand
is the epicenter of rugby and that the five or
six key members of that All Blacks coaching stuff, you know,
other best people for the job.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Yeah, that's a valid point.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
I know. I'll give you a lot of stick about
the cruse and all that sort of thing as well,
But on a genuine note here, I think the worry
for me is it's quite a close shop there and
from what I understand of that coaching team, it is
now a very close shop, tight knit crew between Hanson,
(24:28):
Scott Robertson and Jason Ryan. Those guys aren't necessarily hugely
worldly in their coaching experience, particularly in a test rugby arena.
Where's the discerning voices you talk about the spring box.
If you think about Russia, Russumus and Tony Brown, They're
almost coming from polar opposite views, aren't they. Tony Brown's
(24:50):
the attacking mind, the innovation. Russ's very much that old
school Springbok rugby well that came together on Saturday night.
And just in terms of the wider All Blacks coaching team,
Jason Hollins that the strike coach, how much, say, does
he actually get in the attack with Scott Hansen, I'm
(25:11):
not too sure. Tammody Ellison's been elevated very quickly into
a contact defensive role. Is he ready for that brief
when you look around the world at test rugby's defensive coaches.
So look, with a performance like this, the spotlight goes
on everyone, but it does start at the top and
(25:32):
it's that patchy form outside of this one off result
that that's probably almost more worrying for the All Blacks
that they can't string together back to back performances, that
they need an occasion or emotion to get to a
certain level, and that they are being figured out that
they're not progressing.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
And so.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Scott Robinson when he got the job, knew his coaching
team a long way out, didn't he. We've seen change
with Liam McDonald moved on and in previous regimes were
then Foster. We saw how much of an movements a
change in assistance can have. So I don't expect to
see change yet. But this is a very live discussion
(26:18):
and I don't think it's as simple as beat the
Wallabies at Eden Park and everything's right again. Because we've
seen this flip flop nature of the All Blacks. We
need to see some consistency, some improvement before this coaching
team sort of out of the woods.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, I think it's important to suggest that this isn't
knee jerk stuff. What we saw at sky Stadium was
I guess the culmination of this stop start, hot, cold
All Blacks performance that again, it's not just the Scott
Robertson area era, but it's basically been going back, you
(26:54):
know since twenty twenty, if not slightly before then around
two steps for one step back. We saw the Island
defeat in twenty twenty two. We saw them go to
South Africa and lose and then win and save Foster's job.
We saw you know, the All Blacks Mount Smart Stadium
in twenty twenty three again to spring Box. Then three
four weeks later they lose in London before the World
(27:17):
Cup to a record score and the NC. Yeah, that
game didn't matter, but it's symptomatic of where the All
Blacks have been over the last five or six years,
is that there's been no stake in the ground, right,
this is the way we play now, and this is
the way we play consistently. There's been just any number
of steps forward and then following week week after whatever
it might be won, two steps backwards.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Yeah. I think we're also seeing just how much of
a step up it is from super rugby.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
We see that with players, yep, look at Billy Proctor.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
He has been the best center in Super rugby for
at least two years and hasn't made the step up
to Test rugby. And I think we're seeing that with
coaching as well. Look at the influence that Joe Schmidtz
had on the Wallabies. He's a guy that's took transformed.
(28:07):
Irish came in and my mind was the driving force
behind the All Blacks transformation.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Then he goes to the Wallabies.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
So test experience matters whether you're a player or a coach,
and I think we're seeing those floors born out in
this All Black coaching team.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Indeed, just before we wrap up this half of the podcast,
I guess we'll get into selection discussion next week. You'll
be away, but I guess probably a good chance for
you to say, now, you know, where do you go
to for eden Park? From an All Blacks perspective, you know,
it felt like last night players that played well at
(28:47):
eden Park went backwards. Felt like it feels like when
Artie Sava plays well, the All Blacks play well. He
didn't play well last night. Cody Taylor will come back
in for eden Park. Can Roygard apparently Progression really well,
so there's two changes there as well. Billy Proctor, I
(29:10):
don't know. I thought perhaps even his best Test match
last night, but I'm not even sure that's enough to
save his Josey for the next seast was leicsterfying a
Nooku on the horizon. Leroy Carter, we just mentioned him,
you know, debuting. I thought he had a solid debut.
But do you make sweeping changes for eden Park and
really try and send a message.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
What's the approach here them?
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Yeah, I think we will see some change here. Scott
Robertson retain the faith for eden Park, but with the
patche form, I think he's going to have to pull
a few levers and that could be less defying a
noooko at center. I think cam Rouygar makes a massive difference.
You go from effectively fin Lay Christie because he played
(29:55):
seventy odd minutes of that game after Nahopam has injured
his ankle could be gone for the year, the other
ankle so very sad setback for him in his comeback game.
But fin Lay Christie to cam Rougard's I mean you're
jumping like twenty rungs in the half back qu In
the world game regards attacking influences, booming left boots will
(30:18):
have a massive impact. You mentioned Cody Taylor there. Caleb
Clark has to come back in for me. Potentially you
could switch Lee Ricarda to the right wing. I don't
see any reason why he couldn't do that. Defensively, He's
probably got a bit of work to do. But that's
right across the board. For this All Black team, will
Jordan probably goes back to fullback the forward pack. Look,
(30:41):
they fronted physically against the box. It's a matter maybe
it's a technical thing. Maybe to Mighty Williams he wasn't
great off the bench, but he could perhaps come in
and start. But the Orblick's actually there's not too many
players outside that squad that you could go to, is there.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
No, that's the thing, isn't it. You know, these are
the players that I think consensus wise, you might quibble
over a player here all there, but are regarded as
the best player in the country.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
You know, Hoskinstitutor still has his fans.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Dalton Papolli still has his fans, but it's not like
they're banging down the door at the moment either to
be picked out of the NPC.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
The All Blacks have had a look at.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Them and discarded them.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Luke Jacobson's a player that for me has you know,
been at Tesla for five or six years now. I
can't see him, you know, really ever, being you know,
a first choice All Blacks loose forward. So it's a
matter of these players that are there just have to
basically deliver, isn't it It is?
Speaker 4 (31:43):
And for the coaching team to bring out the best
in them.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
That's that's their role.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
And yeah, there's other guys like Peter Luckeye or a
few others on the fringe, but they're not really massive
game changing shift the needle type selections, are they, So
it's up to the All Blacks to drill down and
find some quick fixes. What did you make of Scott
(32:13):
Robinson's reaction to all this? Because he's not great after
a defeat, he needs some time to process it, to
analyze the game, maybe rewatch it. So immediately postmatch didn't
offer a lot, but even one day on from that,
reasonably calm and composed, certainly no sense of panic despite
(32:35):
being in charge of the biggest defeat in All Black's history,
which is another unwanted record on the first defeat at Argentina.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
So yeah, do you think is.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
It a matter of projecting calm while there's maybe a
sense of panic behind closed doors? Watch a sort of
read on how he's approached the post mortem.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I think he's just an outwardly calm person in his
dealings with the media and tries to keep it a
level head whatever's thrown at him. We've seen him passionate
in the coach's box during games when they cut two
shots of him there, so they're clearly there is a
passion for this team, and I don't doubt there is
a passion behind what he does and the decisions he
makes of the team. I don't think he conveys that
(33:16):
necessarily though when he does speak to media. I think
it takes a while for him to collect his thoughts
on the games and exactly what went wrong. But I
guess you've got to almost reflect the public mood in
a way, regardless of what your own mood is and
what you're trying to convey. You almost have to go, well,
the public wants to see this, so I have to
(33:37):
do it. It's like being a politician in a time
of crisis. Whatever, what does the public want to see?
What does the public need to see from me this?
And you have to pivot to that persona regardless of
whether it suits you, whether it regardless of whether you
feel like you're playing a character or whatever it might be.
You almost have to just go this is what the
public needs to see from me for this moment in time.
(33:59):
I'm going to deliver it. And we saw Russi Erasmus
when they got beaten by the Wallabies at Alice Park
last month. I was listening back to the medi conference
this morning. You know he said it was as dog
shit and you know most all Blacks fans would have
described that performance at sky Stadium as dog shit. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Look, Robinson said he was probe today at the airport
when we were there about it, and he didn't really
go far enough. For me, I think there needs to
be a bit more blunt transparency. Honestly, we weren't good enough.
We didn't get it right. It's unacceptable just that that's
the sort of public messaging that I think fans can accept.
(34:41):
We'll get behind and rather than yeah, there's only a
couple of things and we'll draw down into them and
then everything will be hunky dory.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
It was a bit yeah, but once over lightly.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
For me, well, it'll be a vacuum of all Blacks
noise for the next few days because they're dispersed, and
we'll come back in next weekend to build for the Bledislow.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
I've got two quick questions for you, all right, who
wins Rugby Championship from here?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
I think South Africa two tests. Importantly, they don't have
to go to Argentina. That Test is being played at
in Twickenham. If they had to go to Argentina with
a travel that's on a tricky way to go from
South Africa.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
I think they.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Probably went out against the Argentina and take both of
those games. With all due respect to Los Pomas, I
just think it's a hard road for them to get
to this point. So I hope South Africa winning it
from the all back. So I think we'll do enough
against the Wallabies. Wallaby's third and probably Argentina fourth.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
But it's tight it is, and look that could be
a real stake in the ground performance from South Africa.
It felt like a generational swing and it's going to
be fascinating to see what Russia Rasmus does now he rested, dropped.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
Whatever way you want to term it.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
Damien de Linde, Jesse Crele ebenez Tebeth, Willie LaRue.
Speaker 5 (36:08):
Are they done and dusted? Does he bring some of
them back?
Speaker 4 (36:11):
Because you look at the way Damian Willenson played at
twelve and then and then fallback. How do you drop
a guy like that after that performance and some of
those proven box veterans are not capable of playing in
that manner.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
No, but I think it's the horses for courses now
for us Erasmus and what he's done over the last
two games has gone we can play this way, we
can play that, and yep, you'll be able to pick
which way we're playing by the players we select. But
you know you got to try and defend it. And
I think that's a scary thing for opposition teams is
now the Sprinklers have found depth and not only personnel
(36:49):
but their game plans. And there's not a lot of
teams that I don't think in the world at the
moment that have a way to stop that.
Speaker 5 (36:56):
Bill Lex are vulnerable.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Is this the best Wallabies chance at claiming the Bledders
though in five six plus.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Years, Yep, I think it is. We've seen the All
Blacks get a little bit bullied in recent times. I'm
not sure the Wallabies have the players like South Africa
to do that. I think if it gets into a
running game, the All Blacks should be better. If it
gets into a Ford contest, the All Blacks should be better.
(37:27):
But the Wallabies are playing entertaining and attacking rugby at
the moment and when they get a roll on, they're
very hard to stop. We saw that at Alice Park.
We saw it last week in that game in Townsville
where they came back from that deficit. We saw it
in the game yesterday where they came back from a
huge deficit as well and almost full ste a victory
(37:50):
despite a full pass. So they're they're close, the Wallabies,
so I think it is their best chance.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
What say you?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (37:57):
I don't see them winning both games to win the
Bletters though, but I can see them getting won. And
what I would say about the Wallabies is there is
a real depth of character about their team. We saw
that Alice Park. We've seen that in those other comebacks.
They believe in themselves and they know the way they
want to play. They've got some phenomenal athletes and Joseph
(38:18):
Sui Lee the well led by Harry Wilson, and I
think they come over here unburdened, with a bit fearless
and they'll have a real crack And Joe Schmidt will
know this all black team well, so it's.
Speaker 5 (38:37):
Going to be bloody interesting to see how that pans out.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Indeed it is.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Before we go, let's talk the Black fans and South Africa.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Look.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
South Africa put the Black Funds under some real pressure
early on in that game, ten all at halftime, the
Black fans just a little bit too good after halftime,
but a wee bit of a scare from the women's
box side, who have risen dramatically in the world rankings
over the last couple of years. But the Black fans
(39:07):
just doing what they're needed to do after halftime. I
think Scott Robinson said this morning is almost the inverse
of their game from last night. How do you feel
their place for Canada next week? Giving Canada just wipe
the floor with Australia overnight, Probably.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
A bit nervous, I think interesting to see the Black
woman having fifteen man mauls and following their male counterparts
of that sort of innovation. I thought the Black Ferns
was very, really strong defensively and that when they eventually
got some ball that they scored some nice tries, but
they were on the back foot for large parts of
(39:44):
that match and yeah, semi final. This is when the
tournament starts, isn't it. So I think I'm a wee
bit nervous for that game.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Well, Canada beat them last year, drew with them earlier.
This year, they've been put under Preshia Georgia Miller was
subbed off early in that game this morning, I think tactically,
but also probably to keep her on eyes for a
semi final once they got to a twenty points to
ten lead. She's talismatic for that team. But I thought
Alana Bremner started really really well overnight. A couple of
(40:13):
rampaging runs, a strong leadership across the park midfields and
is Shoe as well. With Amy Duplas ruled out of
the tournament, set a final on Waka Setafara went off overnight.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
So great comeback from a couple of Wilson Baker as well.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
So there's gonna be interesting reselection mixed four of the
Black Ferns this week and how they figure things out.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
But we look forward to.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
That game against Canada and yeah, let's fingers crossed that
the Black Fans get to a World Cup final.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Oh yeah, thoughts of that final three four years ago? Now,
that was an absolute doozy, so hoping for a rematch.
That'll be hell of an occasion, wouldn't it on English soil?
Speaker 3 (40:52):
It would be indeed that I'll about to us for
rugby direct. But it's important to reflect on the ran
for the shield result before we do wrap up Canterbury
keeping it saved by the bell George Bell after the
siren gets them home, keeps the shield and it's rifle
home only sort of last two or three minute this
game once we go back from the airport, but topsy turvy.
The shields alive though, and for the first time in
(41:14):
four weeks it doesn't change provinces.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Yeah, great effort from the Marco and it's not what
the nation needed, is it?
Speaker 5 (41:21):
The shield stage? So the dark day continues.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
No, that was the sun coming through. I think Liam,
you'll find thank you ver much as always. Liam, you
are off next week, not to heal the voice, but
over aweys in America.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So have a good break.
Speaker 5 (41:41):
Yeah, cheers, try and find some rest.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Yeah, that's why we didn't have a podcast again last week.
We just thought we'd get Liam to rest the vocal cords.
Thanks to last and bars English. We will catch you
next week.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Where Are We?
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Joined by Nick Bubley, who's going to slot in four
next week's podcast, we will catchure them. Thanks to access
solutions elevating you and your business to.
Speaker 5 (41:59):
A higher level.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
For more from News Talks B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
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