October 13, 2025 • 37 mins
This week on Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier review the All Blacks' end of year tour squad and the companion All Blacks XV squad for their own tour north and recap the breaking news around Patrick Tuipulotu being withdrawn through injury.
We also dig into the NPC quarter-finals, the latest out of R360 and Josh Jacomb's switch to the Highlanders - from 2027.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Straight Down the Middle, Squad, Try.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Bucket, Inside the Game from Every Angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Welcome in too, Rugby Direct palund By four Clips Solutions
lifting you and your business to a higher level. Elliott
Smith with me Liam Napier out of the New Zealand Heralds.
Back in New Zealand, it's raining, but we have our
All Blacks Ends of Year Tour squad to dissect and
the All Black fifteen End of Year Tour Squad to
dissect as well. Some surprises to an extent, but not
(01:01):
many from that All Black squad, but some breaking news
as we go to record this podcast, Liam that Patrick
three belong to is our of the All Blacks End
of Year Tour squad with an ac joint injury. He's
going to require surgery and that needs a round about
six months a ref So for the All Blacks, that's
a real blow your top line thoughts on that before
(01:21):
we dig a little bit deeper into the squad itself.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Yeah, massive blow. Elliott Patrick two plow too very experienced
lock and has sort of owned that leading the bench
role the impact role in recent times for the All Blacks.
And it is significant because two Provi is already out,
so to provise your starting lock alongside Scott Barrett's and
then two Plow is your man off the bench. So
(01:46):
two locks down and it's not an area of great
strength and depth for New Zealand rugby. So Sam Therey
comes into the mix. But I think you lose a
lot of physicality too. Pro Vi strong at the breakdown.
He's called the line out in recent years, and Patrick
two polo to big, physical, strong, calm presence off the bench.
(02:08):
So two big blows, two big blows.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Absolutely. Sam Derry comes into the squad probably thought he
should have gone closed in the first place. I think
he's got a bit more about him than Josh Lord,
but they went with Lord and now probably both of
them are going to get a bit of game time
on this end of year tour. Whether Derry comes straight
in and replaces to Plot two for that bench role
(02:31):
is going to be interesting, or whether they believe that
Josh Lord can fulfill it. But neither I would say,
like for like in terms of that bench impact that
is offered.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
No, not at all. And look, Lord's a guy that's
been around that environment for a number of years now
but is perennially injured, so wouldn't be surprised to see
him take a knock on this tour and potentially need
another replacement. But you'd think that he's ahead of Darry
and the queue for that bench role and it's a
(03:01):
big ass for him to come in and lead the
bench in the same manner that to Polotu has in
recent time.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Here's one for you. Could they use Semer Penny female,
who interestingly has been listed as lock cover for the squad.
Is that bench player that impact role can obviously also
play sex as well that maybe toy p Lot two.
Is he more on that toy p Lot two vibe
than perhaps a Darry or a Lord.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah. I think he is is a good points. His
versatility has probably been an asset that's seen him retained
in the squad. We haven't seen a lot of some
Penny female at all this season. I think he I
thought he was reasonably impressive in the third Test against
France and Hamilton, but I don't think he's featured since
(03:47):
and it does elevate him. And the issue with Summer
Pennie is he's not a Locke's not his first choice
role and you give up a bit of height, so
you're sacrificing physicality and power and ball carrying. That's what
he brings for lineout ability, so at the back end
(04:08):
of a test set piece is really important. I'm not
saying some of Penny Finale isn't proficient at the lineout,
but that little bit of heights can make a big difference.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Ye him coming through and being pointed out to me,
I think by Steve Gordon Formal Black's Lock himself that
he was a real up and comer and largely him
playing lock to that point, but just doesn't have that
height to play at Test level, I don't think on
a regular basis, but they may be able to compensate
for that some way if he's coming off the bench.
Your thoughts on that all Black squad that was named
on Monday Initially very few surprises in that All Blacks squad.
(04:40):
Those hunting for bolters would be largely disappointed. What did
you make of that squad?
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Yeah, that's right, it was highly predictable, wasn't it. There's
probably two selections that stand out. I guess George Belle
coming in for Brody McAllister, and I don't see that
as a surprise. Brody struggled this year off the bench
in two tests, in particular with his line out throwing,
and George bell has been injured for much of the
(05:08):
Chris season. Was probably ahead of Brody, Butts just hadn't
had the game time, so that change sort of makes sense.
Suffer Alma I would have ahead of them both, but
he's struggling with concussions, didn't play a lot for Wellington
this season. And then there was the final line call
between Josh Lords and Sam Darry, which is now a
(05:31):
bit negligent because they're both going to be in the squad,
so no great surprises. I would have liked to have
seen them evolve this squad a bit more guys like
Seva Reese. I think his time's done. I think I
would have wanted to see a tonguey towel a fee hackey,
like give someone an opportunity. But I can understand the
thinking and that those guys will probably benefit more from
(05:54):
game time with the all Blacks fifteen. What about you?
Is there anyone else that you wanted to see in
the squad or left out of the squad?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
For me, I think they're obviously carrying Finlay Christie and
I've seen comments from Justin Marsh and others. Look, I
don't think Phila Christy's going to be there in twenty
twenty seven, and so you're carrying him. But as an
insurance policy, I guess it's.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
A bit like Peter and Nara to an extent last year.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah, if you know, I don't think he's going to
see too much game time on this tour. He might
play against Wales potentially off the bench, but it's an
insurance policy and they want to see the likes of
those halfbacks that are getting game time with the All
Blacks fifteen. In Kyle Preston, who obviously met his debut
this year. Zavia Row hasn't in Flafakataba, but his time
has come again after three years out in the All
(06:43):
Blacks wilderness. You know, get some game time for them
under the belts. You suspect on the basis of that
that all three of them will probably start a game
each and they'll rotate bench rolls around that, whereas Phila
Chresty's probably not going to get much more than twenty
minutes if plans roll out as expected across this tour.
So I can see it from that perspective, but I
(07:03):
also think at some point you've got to reward those
players with that all spot.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yes, it's all very well being rewarded with an All
Blacks fifteen position, and that's great because you're going to
get more game time, but the All Blacks are the pinnacle,
and by carrying players that maybe aren't deserving of it,
or maybe I'm not going to be there in twenty
twenty seven, I don't know whether it cheapens the juzy necessarily.
And I can understand the logic to an extent that
you want to get these game players with more game time,
(07:30):
but I also think the All Blacks should be the
top echelone, not a play place where basically you're selecting
the best training partners and the best backups to the backups,
et cetera.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Yeah, I think your pointvant the relevance there is to
the twenty twenty seven World Cup, and yes, you live
in the here and now, Yes you need a win now,
but some of those guys aren't going to be there
in two years time. So if you're not pulling the
trigger now, then win. And it does feel like there's
that inherent conservatism in Scott Robertson's selections. He's slow to react.
(08:06):
You look at a guy like Leroy Carter. He was
him and Ammonia best wings in Super Rugby Pacific this year.
Leroy Carter only selected in the Rugby Championship squad as
injury cover and he has made an instant impact and
it just takes them a bit long to get there.
And that's the feeling, isn't it. Around guys like Seva,
(08:27):
Reese f and Lake Christie, it feels like you're a
wee bit stuck in the mud. You're not evolving, you're
not a moving forward, you're not progressing. So I agree,
and you could widen that out. You know, there's a
number of guys that it does feel like last chance saloon. Maybe.
I think Rikwani still has value with his versatility, but
he's got to be on notice. Luke Jacobson hasn't featured
(08:50):
in recent times. I thought he was good for Wakato
the other night, other than his yellow card. Yeah, so
there's a lot of guys were points to prove, a
lot of guys that potentially aren't going to see a
lot of game time unless his injuries, and I think
we are going to see players move between the All
Blacks and the All Blacks fifteen. A guy like Ruben
(09:10):
Love as a classic example, he should be potentially starting
at ten for the All Blacks fifteen. I know Josh
Jacobs there and Rivers Rahana, but there's that week in
England in particular, I think England d Ay, the same
week that the All Blacks play England. I think you
will see a bit of shifting of squad members between
those two teams.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Interestingly, no Dylan Pledger in the All Blacks fifteen. Now,
there had been obviously calls for him. He's been an
exceptional form for Otago during the NBC obviously came off
of the New Zealand Under twenties campaign as well. At
one point it looked like he was going to be
included and that would have been a big selection, but
instead he has been left out and will spend getting
(09:53):
the off season I guess a couple weeks behind is
before Christmas and then getting into it proper do you
think it's the right call to take a step back
and go what's the best long term development or would
you have liked to see him in that All Blacks
fifteen squad.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
I would have liked to have seen him in this
All Black fifteen squad. I think he's ready now. I've
seen enough of him to believe that he can be elevated,
and I think he would benefit from the exposure to
different conditions, different opposition, being on tour. All those things
(10:25):
are very valuable, and it is different to being in
an under twenties environment playing grom Men, experiencing a sold
outs stadium in bath or These sort of opportunities don't
come around every day, so I would have liked to
have seen him in that environment. I can also understand
(10:45):
the logic. I don't think there necessarily any bias, but
maybe some people will see it that way. With Joseph
coaching the Highlanders, if he goes on that All Blis
fifteen tour, I think he will then have a mandated
rest and have to come back quite late, probably late January,
even into a super rugby squad. So it's not the
(11:07):
best preparation for his rocky Super Rugby season.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yeah, well it was interesting that. Yet Falafakatava is going
and Dylan Pledge is not from that holland he's probably
maybe Jammie Joseph didn't want to lose two Highlanders half
backs from his preseason. Potentially, I don't know, but I agree.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Look, he's deserving of a place place there.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
To me, he's already in the best six half backs
in the country. And yes, you can wait NBC lower
than Super Rugby and he hasn't made his debut there.
But and I'm not comparing him to Richard McCall, but
I wonder now is there the place? And yes, rugby's
moved on since two thousand and one when mccormad his debut,
but he came out of NBC having not played Super
Rugby and debuted for the All Blacks and was you know,
(11:46):
the best player on debut is man to the match
on debut against Ireland in two thousand and one. As
I said, rugby's moved on. But since the end of
pathways everything like that, But it feels like over the
last twenty plus years that would just simply no longer happen.
You want a defined pathway and there's no room for
players to come out of the gates in NBC and
(12:06):
you know, shock the world and all of a suddenly
on the end of view tour.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Well, I think the question is around this All Blacks
fifteen team. What's its purpose? Is it a team masquerading
development for retention? Is it a carrot to keep Adulton
Puppa Lee interested or you know, you look at guys
like Brandon en Or and Dallas McLeod, how much you're
(12:32):
actually learning by taking those sort of guys away on
a tour like this when you could be really promoting
the next generation. You know, I think of a guy
he's injured at the moment, but Riley Higgins, you know
that sort of caliber or age profile. I think they
would get more from that. And that's where the push
(12:53):
for Dylan Pledger. Just get him involved, accelerate his development,
expose him to all these different environments and I think
you'd get more from that than a Super rugby preseason.
So what's your view on how this All Black fifteen
team should be selected? What is its purpose?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Well? Yeah, its purpose is spreading the All Blacks gospel,
isn't it around the globe? And you know, enhancing commercial
opportunities for for New Zealand rugby. They've got three games
on this tour, England, a Bath and Uruguay they're going
to play against. Those are three revenue streams of the
All Blacks. Yes, it's a carrot for some of these
players to stay a bit longer. I think the usage
(13:31):
of the All Blacks fifteen is confusing. I would prefer
Junior All Blacks or an All Blacks A or something
like that to the Alla sifteen. It doesn't read well.
I don't think overseas when you're trying to interpret it.
I've seen it misinterpreted a lot of times online and
perhaps that's a then problem, but that's by the bye.
I would like to see it, you know, give opportunities
(13:52):
to youth. But at the same time you mentioned those
crossover players. If you're bringing in younger players who prescribed
aren't ready for the All Blacks but are ready for
All Blacks fifteen, you can't have that crossover as much.
If there's a midfield to injured on the end of
your tour. While Brandonan was there and ready to go
and he's play All Blacks rugby before David HARVILLI same
with him, so I don't have a perfect answer for that,
(14:14):
but I would have liked to see a little bit
more youth. You know, someone like Lucas Casey has been
exceptional for the for Otago and again hasn't played him,
hasn't played super rugby. It may he make it found
out at super rugby level or maybe the making of
him by going on the All Blacks fifteen to him
may play the house down and go. This guy's ready
for big opportunity. So I would have you know, I
know Scrolls and mentioned some bolters there. I don't know,
(14:35):
there's too many bolters in that All Blacks fifteen squad.
There's some tried and true faces and yeah, so it's
hard to define the purpose of it other than, you know,
basically taking sixty players on tour and being able to
rotate some of those options in and out.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Yeah, I think we did see last year Fabian Holland,
see Carrefi and Reuben Love. We've talked about players going
from the All Blacks to the All Blacks fifteen, but
those guys went the other way, spent time in All
Blacks camp and then in the case of Carrife and
Fabian Holland, graduate to full squad members. Hollins impressed everyone
(15:12):
with his training etiquette and how quickly he picked everything
up at the back end of last year, So that
purpose I completely understand. But I would like to see
this team from a selection point of view, the All
Blacks fifteen weighted far more heavily in favor of youth development.
I think those sort of players would get much more
from the exposure up north than a Dallas McLeod type
(15:38):
character who's been around a long time. You know what
you're going to get, you know his style of play. Realistically,
he's not likely to be called into the All Blacks
as well, So go a bit younger and expose those guys,
give them an opportunity. That's where I would like to
see the selection purpose of that team sit.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I think there's some I think when you look at
that All Black squad, there are some If you lose
the top players, there are some real question marks around
who's next. You know, Simon Parker goes down with No. Two,
you've got Semipeni Feen now. But I don't think there's
a lot of depth at six. I also don't think
there's a lot of depth at second five. Jeordi Barrackt's injured,
(16:17):
Maybe move Clinton Pier and you could put anyone at center.
You've got a few options there, but I don't think
you've got a ready made it almost Dallas mc cloud.
That type of body is more what you're looking for,
you know, to lightful light replacement for Jordi Barrett. But
I think there are some issues around depth at the
All Blacks level, which I don't know that we rectified
on this end of year tour because they're going to
(16:38):
roll out their first choice team more often than not,
maybe apart from Wales, and you know, that seems like
maybe the only opportunity where maybe they can tweak a
few things and look at players. But I don't know
how much we're going to learn about and maybe it's
not about learning. It's about willing obviously, but about building
you know, four four four across this tour.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Yeah, it's a good point. And it's not just that
the depths not there, it's the drop off, right. So
we've talked about two below too and VI and the
next keep off the rank you mentioned second five and Blindside.
While we've spoken about Locke, we've seen the drop off
at Hooker when you get a few injuries. First five
(17:21):
is another one. Obviously Richie's Richie Wong is coming home
next year. But without given these players the exposure and opportunity,
they're not going to grow. And that's we've spoken about
around Ruben Love and the fact that he hasn't played
ten for the All Blacks yet. So they need opportunity,
they need exposure. And Scott Robinson's brought in nineteen rookies
(17:45):
in the past well eighteen months, and that is around
that four four to four plan. But there is a
big difference between ten minutes off the bench and twenty
thirty caps, So I don't think there's going to be
many opportunities to rotate on this tour. Players are probably
only going to get chances through injuries and maybe in
(18:09):
that final Test against Wales.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, it was interesting hearing him talk yesterday when you
name the squad around the greatest rivalry tour and the
probably taking forty plus players there and seventeen games with
the All Blacks next year with those tour games against
the likes of the USC side, so there's an opportunity there,
But by that point you're just over a year away
from the World Cup, and yeah, There'll be opportunities there
(18:31):
to have some midweek games and give players, you know,
All Blacks experience, but again you're taking forty plus players.
There'll be to probably define midwek group and a test group,
but you can't wait for that opportunity, I don't think
to get these players on the park.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Oh and opportunities at this level are so limited, aren't they?
And the All Blacks have missed opportunities when you go
back to last year, in particular to evolve the group
and to make changes. I think they've been better in
their area this year. We've seen them mate changes for
the third Test against France and the most recent Bledislow.
Four of the sevens darting changes were injury and forced,
(19:10):
but some of those players really stepped up, and I
think we need to see a bit more of there,
and we need to see them be a bit more
brave and bold.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Any any further comments on that too? Before we kept
taking quick break? Take a quicker break? Excuse me on
RAPI direct.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
What is it the best sixty six players in New
Zealand And and what does that tell you about where
the game's at?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Well?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I think it is the best sixty six I mean
there's a few injuries, for one, and that would change
the complexion of that group. And no, because you know,
I think Dylan Pleagure is doing the right to be
in that top six half backs in the country at
this point in time. I think there's probably a few
others that you could quibble over as well, and so yeah,
(19:56):
I would say.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
No, yeah, yeah, I think Pleasures should be there. I
think that's a misstep. But he's probably also a guy
that could come in and take Super rugby by storm
next year and potentially go straight into the all blacks environment.
I think he really is that good and NPC is
a couple of ruings down, but he just seems to
(20:19):
have time and composure and the full box of tricks
and speed to the base. I think he's a real
point of difference that they will look to enhance. And
they've got Noah Hotham and court his at Artimo behind
cam royguard. But as we sit here now, I think
Dylan Pledger will be really knocking on the door. I
(20:42):
think he will be in the World Cup squad.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yeah. Yeah. He's a young bloke, hasn't played Super Rabia level,
but looks to have the entire package. Just back to
sever Reese, we were talking about him before. He's not
going to get a lot of game time. I don't
think on those two, barring injuries. There's been a lot
of clamoring for Caleb Toungy Tower potentially from what I
saw of the NPC this year. For Auckland, I thought
(21:04):
he was found out defensively on a number of occasions,
and I think that's a big work on in his game.
But I think that raw ability on the attacking side
is something that they want to harness. Fihaki is another one.
I think, you know, in terms of an aerial threatening
what Test rugby is at the moment, he's probably you know,
one of the tor swingers going around, would have liked
(21:25):
to see him maybe in the mix. But you know,
for me, it feels like hang on to sev Reese
just a little bit too long. He's only contracted twenty
twenty six of New Zealand rugby. It feels like he's
been given up on on at Test level at this point.
Now he may get an opportunity on this end of
the year tour, but it feels like they hang on
to him, and this probably circles back to the earlier point,
(21:47):
to be a training partner more than actually being a
prospect for the twenty twenty seven World Cup.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
What's an unwillingness to take a chance on someone and
to stick with someone too long. That's been there. But
the signs were there this time last year on the
Alblex Northern Tour when Sevu had a couple of brain
explosions and he was gas in that French test. That
was a real stark image of a winger not in
(22:14):
his prime. So and then when you see some of
these all blacks go back to provincial rugby, you'd expect
them to dominate. And yes, it's not necessarily easy to
go straight back in and fit into a system that
you haven't been a part of and gel with teammates immediately.
But we've seen it with some players. As I mentioned before,
Luke Jacobson was really good, but others like sie Vorice
(22:37):
when he went back to Southland, he looked like he
was stuck in the MUDs. Even Riquewuani going back to Auckland,
he didn't do anything. Really. I thought Antonina Brown didn't
really show out for Waikato. So some of these guys
that are on the periphery of the All Blacks, then
went back to provincial rugby and haven't stepped up as
(22:57):
you'd hope, so I think that's another telltale sign as
well to.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Papel, I think has been very good for counties this
year and had to slim to eight with Hoskins to
two do add injured another string to his by I
mean you can play six, he can play eight, He
can play obviously open side flanker. To me, he's got
more of an upside at this point in time than
Luke Jacobson, especially in a bench capacity for the All Blacks,
So I would have liked to see him perhaps coming
to that main squad, but not to be right. We'll
(23:23):
wrap it up there for the first half of the podcast.
Come back second half after this plenty to get stuck
into in the Final four.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Ever try try and sixty sec every tackle tackles get.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Up again, well I take him before.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Times Rugby Direct, Ladies talk, Welcome back to the Final
four on Rugby Direct. Pound by four kule of solutions
lifting you and your business to a higher level for
rugby topics In fact, five. We'll get into the first
one though. N PC semi finalists set and it's teams
one to four who qualified. No upsets per se. But boy,
(24:07):
that was a great weekend of NPC quarter finals from
Friday night right through to Sunday afternoon, all four games delivered.
I mean, I know, the Bay of Plenty blew out
Tasman in the end, but that was compelling in a
way as well. So great weekend for the NPC and
the semi finals are set up quite nicely.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Oh his magic, wasn't it? And I think the NPC
is still the essence of New Zealand rugby. You know,
defense isn't as sophisticated and suffocating. So some magic ball
and play and then just some dramatic finishes with Counties
pushing Canterbury to extra time and cam Miller slot in
(24:45):
that penalty what fifty meters out absolutely clutch kick. So yeah,
the magic of the NPC really really come into the
four and I think I'm on the Otago bamwagon. Actually
it's good to have.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Well South Islands, we'll take that as a whole. People
want to see Otago Canterbury final.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Well I'm not sure about that. Has taking a real
leap of faith there.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
No, I think the people fine large, I mean, oh tuggle,
Look as long as it's in the South Island, we
don't need these mythical bays. Don't worry about that. Topy
number two. R three sixty takes a hammer below a
whole bunch of unions last week saying that we will
not pick players out of R three sixty should this
competition start. I mean, no surprises from New Zealand Rugby.
(25:30):
They don't pick anyone outside of Super Rugby, so no
surprise with them. But some of those other unions signing
up basically a big blockade in the way, And to me,
it puts R three sixty into a corner of being
a rebel league and that's probably not a place they
want to be because it makes you know, I'm sure
when they've been signing up players or getting expressions of
(25:52):
interest in the background, there would have been a lot
of talk saying, hey, you still be able to play
test rugby. You know, we want to align with the regulation.
Nine windows will release you for that, no trouble at all.
But when those unions are saying we won't pick them,
it paints them as a rebel league and now becomes
very very difficult, I think to recruit players.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
It does, yeah, and it heightens the pressure to recruit
NRL players, fringe super rugby players, and that significantly diminishes
your ability to market this league to captivate fans, and
that was always going to be a struggle anyway. I've
had a lot of discussion about this, even with mates,
(26:29):
and one of them compared it to the IPL and
I was like, well, yes, but absolutely not, because the
IPL had a captivated fan base, rabid cricketing fan base,
and personally I don't actually have a lot of interest
in the IPL either. But this concept are three six
is talking about a traveling circus going around Barcelona and Dubai,
(26:54):
and I just can't see it's capturing fans. And they're
now in a situation where they're going to have to
effectively survive for two years through to the twenty seven
World Cup, when a whole host of players may actually
take a look at it and look at cashing out.
But can they survive that long? As I think there's
(27:15):
a consortium eight eighty five that are bank rolling it,
have they got the capital to stick with it? Will
it survived two years. Really, it's a long long runway
to get off the grounds and are going to be
losing money hand of a fist, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
That may not matter to them depending on who the
investors are, they may be prepared to wear that, but
it takes that machine off the league. I think in
terms of you might be able to get a big
fish if they're still able to play tests rugby, you
might be able to and then you know, you get
one fish, you might be able to get two or
three more. At the moment, you're probably going to get
what Ryan Papenhou's and rod to ty vasishek. Well, I
(27:56):
can see these well, could have seen these players in
the NRL week in week out playing a competition that
was much more interesting.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
And they're a big deal in Australasia.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Who really knows about them in Barcelona or do By?
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Yeah? And yeah is anyone going to go along? And
I just don't see what the selling point is for
viewers in New Zealand and Australia to watch this. You
look at in New Zealand, there's not the market for
anything outside of Super Rugby and the NPC. In terms
of competitions, the English Premiership I think is on Sky,
but virtually no one watch it. Barely anyone here watches
(28:32):
the Six Nations. The USC is not on TV anymore,
the French Top fourteen's not on TV. The Japanese thing,
I think you get one game a week through Rugby Pars.
It's for the really die hard fan that wants to
watch that. So if you're not watching any of these
overseas leagues, now, why would you watch R three sixty
with a bunch of players that you know you've previously
watched in NRL and other competitions.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
I don't get it, that's right, it's going to struggle
to get cut through. One interesting I've heard around R
three six is that they're not going to have a
broadcast and necessarily there's going to go on YouTube and
try and I guess grab fans that way. And that's
probably a smart play for a new entring into the market,
and that would allow content creators and maybe to capture
(29:17):
attention via social media. That's something that's traditional rugby doesn't
do well. It's very restrictive and what it allows people
to clip up and to show on socials and all
those sorts of things. So maybe that's a feather in
the cap, but it still has to get off the ground.
It still has to have people that you want to watch,
(29:39):
and it still has to produce a decent product.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
It does. Topic three. Josh shakumsigns for the Highlanders in
twenty twenty seven. Interesting on both sides of this. The
factor that's come out now there's been a bit of
chatter that they Chiefs, that Honders wanted the Chiefs to
release him. Jacob wanted to go. Even some of the
quotes and the media release seem pretty pointed to the
(30:03):
fact that maybe they can try and get him early.
But as it stands, twenty twenty seven a good signing
for the Highlanders, but they're going to have to wait.
As it stands, what do you think is a possibility
a deal might get done.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
There great signing for the Highlanders and great move for Josh.
Jacob had to happen. He has stagnated, we haven't seen
enough of him and he pretty much not wasted, but
he's been on ice and we've seen again another rung
down at provincial level. But just how influential he can
(30:37):
be and he could be a game changer for the
Highlanders with some of those other young guys coming through
as a real momentum building down there with some of
the recruitments. I don't see the Chiefs releasing him early.
It's not in their interests. I can understand why Jacob
would want to go, but I think he's also a
(30:58):
professional and he'll dig in and do his part for
the Chiefs. But for the benefit of the competition and
the individual and the case Jacob, I think the Chiefs
probably should release them, but it's not in their interests,
not in their interests.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
But they did from memory get Joshuvani early out of
the Highlanders. I think he was released from the Highlanders
when was that twenty twenty one ish to go up
a year early to the Chiefs. So it has gone
the other way, and you know, different coaches, different management
in place, and.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
You know, well, same case with Brady McAllister.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
This year they've got Bradie Mcalliss there. So yeah, it's
not in their interest And we're far, far, far, far
far far down the track for planning for Super Rugby.
A lot of signings have been made et cetera. For
for next year. They may not have a really made replacement.
But for me yeah, you know it's gone up to
the Chiefs. Maybe they should just returned the favor and
(31:54):
you know down South would have been perhaps the noble
thing to do, but you know they're for their own interest.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
I guess, yeah, I guess if you're John and Gibbs
coming into your first year's head coach, you want all
the depth fifteen Yeah you can.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
I guess when you've lost four finals whatever it is
in a row, you need every possible answer that you
can out topic cup. Before Carter Gordon returns to the
Wallaby's one nrral game look at a pretty horrible and
drum and a weird way. You're great signing for the
ends after for Australian Rugby, getting him back and you know,
the player of immense promise. I think for both the
(32:27):
Reds and the Wallabies. I think he could have had
a pretty good league career if it wasn't for the
fact he basically got hamstrung so to speak, by the
back injury that he suffered this year, only got one
game and he's got the league build. To me, would
have been quite interesting to see how he goes there.
But in terms of that path towards twenty twenty seven.
I'm not saying he's the chosen one, but I think
it's a bit of a boost for the depth of
(32:49):
Leskis in both the Reds roll next year and also
when he takes over the Wallabies.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
It was a massive indictment on Australian rugby and the
Eddie Jones era that he departed in the first place,
because yeah, he looked the goods and he still had
some developments in terms of game management, but he has
build his boots, his ability to challenge the line. It's
no surprise that the Wallabies have immediately put him back
(33:15):
in that squad, and interestingly, with Tom Liner, they're not
taking him on the Northern Tour to give him a
chance to recover. I think he's still twenty two years old,
but a big win for Rugby Australia and the Reds. Interestingly, again,
Carter Gordon and Tom Lion are going head to heads
for the ten jersey. Probably not ideal. Maybe Gordon could
play twelve or Line could play fifteen and a pinch
(33:38):
there is some depth in that Red's environments. Yeah, I guess,
on reflectioning, a bit of a shame that Gordon effectively
lost two years of his career by going to league.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, it took a punt on it didn't work out.
Titan's Scotch have changed all sorts of changes there. Don't
blame for coming back, but yeah, real shame because you know,
if he had a full year in the saddle, two
years in the saddle, who knows.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Where could have been starting at against the lines.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, so probably kicking himself over that a little bit
in retrospect before we go this probably last time was
each other face to face before Chicago. So give us
your Grand Slam predictions.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Well, I think it's important to note the context. No
Grand Slam for the Ax for fifteen years, they've won
five in history. Well, first of all, there's a bit
of chat about this. Is it a Does it qualify
as a Grand Slam tour? With the All Blacks and
Island playing in Chicago?
Speaker 3 (34:33):
I think it does. I don't think you can behold
rugby in twenty twenty five to the same standards as
previous years. Rugby's completely changed. It's not like they're playing
all four away or in neutral venues. I think you
can still classified as a Grand Slam and going about
twenty five years, the idea of the All Blacks playing
(34:54):
Island Chicago would have been preposterous or about fifty it
certainly would have been preposterous. But this is the way
we're in now, and it's a game where you know
they're both on the ticket. No one's home team. To me,
I think it's still cancers to Grand Slam.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Yeah, it's a much harder game for the All Blacks
if it's in Dublin, so it's an easier Grand Slam
Tour on paper. But it is a modern world and
it's not like the All Blacks are forcing Island to
go to Chicago. This is a mutually beneficial match for
both unions. Are both going to probably take walk away
(35:31):
of a million bucks each. And yeah, this is a
modern environment and it's pretty common every year, so I
think we'll see more Grand Slam Tours like this in
the future. So for me, it does still qualify. Prediction wise,
I don't think they get the Grand Slam. I don't
think on the basis of what we've seen this year,
I could sit here and predict that they are. I
(35:52):
think they lose at least one test on this tour.
What say you?
Speaker 3 (35:57):
I think they do as well? I can't tell you
which game, but I just think, similar to you, that
string together full performances in a row is going to be.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Difficult, particularly with some of those injury out. You're starting
to test depth in important areas.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Having said that, with all due respect to our Welsh listeners,
if they get to three on the board, I'm not
sure that the Welsh will stop them getting the Grand Slam.
But stranger things have happened.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
That's right. The Scotland Test worries me a little bit.
Scotland never beat the All Blacks. They've knocked over England
a lot in recent times. In Edinburgh. It'll be cold,
it'll be dark. I remember, I think it was the
last All Black Test there under Ian Foster and the
All Blacks were right up against it for sixty odd minutes.
(36:44):
And does this All Black team have the ability to
pull it out in the last twenty because you know,
Scotland at home are a difficult prospect.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Last time they were there in twenty two as well
Mark Talas scoring on debut, they got themselves out of
it a little bit of a hole there. You know,
Scotland are a good team, really good team. So yep,
it sounds I think they'll lose one of those games,
but I don't know one. It'll be to us right,
We direct for another week thanks to Forklift Solutions lifting
(37:14):
you and your business to a higher level of thanks
as well to Carry Sure for producing this week. We
will see you next time.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Straight Down the Middle, Squad, Try.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Bucket, Inside the Game from Every Angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Welcome in too, Rugby Direct palund By four Clips Solutions
lifting you and your business to a higher level. Elliott
Smith with me Liam Napier out of the New Zealand Heralds.
Back in New Zealand, it's raining, but we have our
All Blacks Ends of Year Tour squad to dissect and
the All Black fifteen End of Year Tour Squad to
dissect as well. Some surprises to an extent, but not
(01:01):
many from that All Black squad, but some breaking news
as we go to record this podcast, Liam that Patrick
three belong to is our of the All Blacks End
of Year Tour squad with an ac joint injury. He's
going to require surgery and that needs a round about
six months a ref So for the All Blacks, that's
a real blow your top line thoughts on that before
(01:21):
we dig a little bit deeper into the squad itself.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Yeah, massive blow. Elliott Patrick two plow too very experienced
lock and has sort of owned that leading the bench
role the impact role in recent times for the All Blacks.
And it is significant because two Provi is already out,
so to provise your starting lock alongside Scott Barrett's and
then two Plow is your man off the bench. So
(01:46):
two locks down and it's not an area of great
strength and depth for New Zealand rugby. So Sam Therey
comes into the mix. But I think you lose a
lot of physicality too. Pro Vi strong at the breakdown.
He's called the line out in recent years, and Patrick
two polo to big, physical, strong, calm presence off the bench.
(02:08):
So two big blows, two big blows.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Absolutely. Sam Derry comes into the squad probably thought he
should have gone closed in the first place. I think
he's got a bit more about him than Josh Lord,
but they went with Lord and now probably both of
them are going to get a bit of game time
on this end of year tour. Whether Derry comes straight
in and replaces to Plot two for that bench role
(02:31):
is going to be interesting, or whether they believe that
Josh Lord can fulfill it. But neither I would say,
like for like in terms of that bench impact that
is offered.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
No, not at all. And look, Lord's a guy that's
been around that environment for a number of years now
but is perennially injured, so wouldn't be surprised to see
him take a knock on this tour and potentially need
another replacement. But you'd think that he's ahead of Darry
and the queue for that bench role and it's a
(03:01):
big ass for him to come in and lead the
bench in the same manner that to Polotu has in
recent time.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Here's one for you. Could they use Semer Penny female,
who interestingly has been listed as lock cover for the squad.
Is that bench player that impact role can obviously also
play sex as well that maybe toy p Lot two.
Is he more on that toy p Lot two vibe
than perhaps a Darry or a Lord.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah. I think he is is a good points. His
versatility has probably been an asset that's seen him retained
in the squad. We haven't seen a lot of some
Penny female at all this season. I think he I
thought he was reasonably impressive in the third Test against
France and Hamilton, but I don't think he's featured since
(03:47):
and it does elevate him. And the issue with Summer
Pennie is he's not a Locke's not his first choice
role and you give up a bit of height, so
you're sacrificing physicality and power and ball carrying. That's what
he brings for lineout ability, so at the back end
(04:08):
of a test set piece is really important. I'm not
saying some of Penny Finale isn't proficient at the lineout,
but that little bit of heights can make a big difference.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Ye him coming through and being pointed out to me,
I think by Steve Gordon Formal Black's Lock himself that
he was a real up and comer and largely him
playing lock to that point, but just doesn't have that
height to play at Test level, I don't think on
a regular basis, but they may be able to compensate
for that some way if he's coming off the bench.
Your thoughts on that all Black squad that was named
on Monday Initially very few surprises in that All Blacks squad.
(04:40):
Those hunting for bolters would be largely disappointed. What did
you make of that squad?
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Yeah, that's right, it was highly predictable, wasn't it. There's
probably two selections that stand out. I guess George Belle
coming in for Brody McAllister, and I don't see that
as a surprise. Brody struggled this year off the bench
in two tests, in particular with his line out throwing,
and George bell has been injured for much of the
(05:08):
Chris season. Was probably ahead of Brody, Butts just hadn't
had the game time, so that change sort of makes sense.
Suffer Alma I would have ahead of them both, but
he's struggling with concussions, didn't play a lot for Wellington
this season. And then there was the final line call
between Josh Lords and Sam Darry, which is now a
(05:31):
bit negligent because they're both going to be in the squad,
so no great surprises. I would have liked to have
seen them evolve this squad a bit more guys like
Seva Reese. I think his time's done. I think I
would have wanted to see a tonguey towel a fee hackey,
like give someone an opportunity. But I can understand the
thinking and that those guys will probably benefit more from
(05:54):
game time with the all Blacks fifteen. What about you?
Is there anyone else that you wanted to see in
the squad or left out of the squad?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
For me, I think they're obviously carrying Finlay Christie and
I've seen comments from Justin Marsh and others. Look, I
don't think Phila Christy's going to be there in twenty
twenty seven, and so you're carrying him. But as an
insurance policy, I guess it's.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
A bit like Peter and Nara to an extent last year.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah, if you know, I don't think he's going to
see too much game time on this tour. He might
play against Wales potentially off the bench, but it's an
insurance policy and they want to see the likes of
those halfbacks that are getting game time with the All
Blacks fifteen. In Kyle Preston, who obviously met his debut
this year. Zavia Row hasn't in Flafakataba, but his time
has come again after three years out in the All
(06:43):
Blacks wilderness. You know, get some game time for them
under the belts. You suspect on the basis of that
that all three of them will probably start a game
each and they'll rotate bench rolls around that, whereas Phila
Chresty's probably not going to get much more than twenty
minutes if plans roll out as expected across this tour.
So I can see it from that perspective, but I
(07:03):
also think at some point you've got to reward those
players with that all spot.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yes, it's all very well being rewarded with an All
Blacks fifteen position, and that's great because you're going to
get more game time, but the All Blacks are the pinnacle,
and by carrying players that maybe aren't deserving of it,
or maybe I'm not going to be there in twenty
twenty seven, I don't know whether it cheapens the juzy necessarily.
And I can understand the logic to an extent that
you want to get these game players with more game time,
(07:30):
but I also think the All Blacks should be the
top echelone, not a play place where basically you're selecting
the best training partners and the best backups to the backups,
et cetera.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Yeah, I think your pointvant the relevance there is to
the twenty twenty seven World Cup, and yes, you live
in the here and now, Yes you need a win now,
but some of those guys aren't going to be there
in two years time. So if you're not pulling the
trigger now, then win. And it does feel like there's
that inherent conservatism in Scott Robertson's selections. He's slow to react.
(08:06):
You look at a guy like Leroy Carter. He was
him and Ammonia best wings in Super Rugby Pacific this year.
Leroy Carter only selected in the Rugby Championship squad as
injury cover and he has made an instant impact and
it just takes them a bit long to get there.
And that's the feeling, isn't it. Around guys like Seva,
(08:27):
Reese f and Lake Christie, it feels like you're a
wee bit stuck in the mud. You're not evolving, you're
not a moving forward, you're not progressing. So I agree,
and you could widen that out. You know, there's a
number of guys that it does feel like last chance saloon. Maybe.
I think Rikwani still has value with his versatility, but
he's got to be on notice. Luke Jacobson hasn't featured
(08:50):
in recent times. I thought he was good for Wakato
the other night, other than his yellow card. Yeah, so
there's a lot of guys were points to prove, a
lot of guys that potentially aren't going to see a
lot of game time unless his injuries, and I think
we are going to see players move between the All
Blacks and the All Blacks fifteen. A guy like Ruben
(09:10):
Love as a classic example, he should be potentially starting
at ten for the All Blacks fifteen. I know Josh
Jacobs there and Rivers Rahana, but there's that week in
England in particular, I think England d Ay, the same
week that the All Blacks play England. I think you
will see a bit of shifting of squad members between
those two teams.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Interestingly, no Dylan Pledger in the All Blacks fifteen. Now,
there had been obviously calls for him. He's been an
exceptional form for Otago during the NBC obviously came off
of the New Zealand Under twenties campaign as well. At
one point it looked like he was going to be
included and that would have been a big selection, but
instead he has been left out and will spend getting
(09:53):
the off season I guess a couple weeks behind is
before Christmas and then getting into it proper do you
think it's the right call to take a step back
and go what's the best long term development or would
you have liked to see him in that All Blacks
fifteen squad.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
I would have liked to have seen him in this
All Black fifteen squad. I think he's ready now. I've
seen enough of him to believe that he can be elevated,
and I think he would benefit from the exposure to
different conditions, different opposition, being on tour. All those things
(10:25):
are very valuable, and it is different to being in
an under twenties environment playing grom Men, experiencing a sold
outs stadium in bath or These sort of opportunities don't
come around every day, so I would have liked to
have seen him in that environment. I can also understand
(10:45):
the logic. I don't think there necessarily any bias, but
maybe some people will see it that way. With Joseph
coaching the Highlanders, if he goes on that All Blis
fifteen tour, I think he will then have a mandated
rest and have to come back quite late, probably late January,
even into a super rugby squad. So it's not the
(11:07):
best preparation for his rocky Super Rugby season.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yeah, well it was interesting that. Yet Falafakatava is going
and Dylan Pledge is not from that holland he's probably
maybe Jammie Joseph didn't want to lose two Highlanders half
backs from his preseason. Potentially, I don't know, but I agree.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Look, he's deserving of a place place there.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
To me, he's already in the best six half backs
in the country. And yes, you can wait NBC lower
than Super Rugby and he hasn't made his debut there.
But and I'm not comparing him to Richard McCall, but
I wonder now is there the place? And yes, rugby's
moved on since two thousand and one when mccormad his debut,
but he came out of NBC having not played Super
Rugby and debuted for the All Blacks and was you know,
(11:46):
the best player on debut is man to the match
on debut against Ireland in two thousand and one. As
I said, rugby's moved on. But since the end of
pathways everything like that, But it feels like over the
last twenty plus years that would just simply no longer happen.
You want a defined pathway and there's no room for
players to come out of the gates in NBC and
(12:06):
you know, shock the world and all of a suddenly
on the end of view tour.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Well, I think the question is around this All Blacks
fifteen team. What's its purpose? Is it a team masquerading
development for retention? Is it a carrot to keep Adulton
Puppa Lee interested or you know, you look at guys
like Brandon en Or and Dallas McLeod, how much you're
(12:32):
actually learning by taking those sort of guys away on
a tour like this when you could be really promoting
the next generation. You know, I think of a guy
he's injured at the moment, but Riley Higgins, you know
that sort of caliber or age profile. I think they
would get more from that. And that's where the push
(12:53):
for Dylan Pledger. Just get him involved, accelerate his development,
expose him to all these different environments and I think
you'd get more from that than a Super rugby preseason.
So what's your view on how this All Black fifteen
team should be selected? What is its purpose?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Well? Yeah, its purpose is spreading the All Blacks gospel,
isn't it around the globe? And you know, enhancing commercial
opportunities for for New Zealand rugby. They've got three games
on this tour, England, a Bath and Uruguay they're going
to play against. Those are three revenue streams of the
All Blacks. Yes, it's a carrot for some of these
players to stay a bit longer. I think the usage
(13:31):
of the All Blacks fifteen is confusing. I would prefer
Junior All Blacks or an All Blacks A or something
like that to the Alla sifteen. It doesn't read well.
I don't think overseas when you're trying to interpret it.
I've seen it misinterpreted a lot of times online and
perhaps that's a then problem, but that's by the bye.
I would like to see it, you know, give opportunities
(13:52):
to youth. But at the same time you mentioned those
crossover players. If you're bringing in younger players who prescribed
aren't ready for the All Blacks but are ready for
All Blacks fifteen, you can't have that crossover as much.
If there's a midfield to injured on the end of
your tour. While Brandonan was there and ready to go
and he's play All Blacks rugby before David HARVILLI same
with him, so I don't have a perfect answer for that,
(14:14):
but I would have liked to see a little bit
more youth. You know, someone like Lucas Casey has been
exceptional for the for Otago and again hasn't played him,
hasn't played super rugby. It may he make it found
out at super rugby level or maybe the making of
him by going on the All Blacks fifteen to him
may play the house down and go. This guy's ready
for big opportunity. So I would have you know, I
know Scrolls and mentioned some bolters there. I don't know,
(14:35):
there's too many bolters in that All Blacks fifteen squad.
There's some tried and true faces and yeah, so it's
hard to define the purpose of it other than, you know,
basically taking sixty players on tour and being able to
rotate some of those options in and out.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Yeah, I think we did see last year Fabian Holland,
see Carrefi and Reuben Love. We've talked about players going
from the All Blacks to the All Blacks fifteen, but
those guys went the other way, spent time in All
Blacks camp and then in the case of Carrife and
Fabian Holland, graduate to full squad members. Hollins impressed everyone
(15:12):
with his training etiquette and how quickly he picked everything
up at the back end of last year, So that
purpose I completely understand. But I would like to see
this team from a selection point of view, the All
Blacks fifteen weighted far more heavily in favor of youth development.
I think those sort of players would get much more
from the exposure up north than a Dallas McLeod type
(15:38):
character who's been around a long time. You know what
you're going to get, you know his style of play. Realistically,
he's not likely to be called into the All Blacks
as well, So go a bit younger and expose those guys,
give them an opportunity. That's where I would like to
see the selection purpose of that team sit.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I think there's some I think when you look at
that All Black squad, there are some If you lose
the top players, there are some real question marks around
who's next. You know, Simon Parker goes down with No. Two,
you've got Semipeni Feen now. But I don't think there's
a lot of depth at six. I also don't think
there's a lot of depth at second five. Jeordi Barrackt's injured,
(16:17):
Maybe move Clinton Pier and you could put anyone at center.
You've got a few options there, but I don't think
you've got a ready made it almost Dallas mc cloud.
That type of body is more what you're looking for,
you know, to lightful light replacement for Jordi Barrett. But
I think there are some issues around depth at the
All Blacks level, which I don't know that we rectified
on this end of year tour because they're going to
(16:38):
roll out their first choice team more often than not,
maybe apart from Wales, and you know, that seems like
maybe the only opportunity where maybe they can tweak a
few things and look at players. But I don't know
how much we're going to learn about and maybe it's
not about learning. It's about willing obviously, but about building
you know, four four four across this tour.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Yeah, it's a good point. And it's not just that
the depths not there, it's the drop off, right. So
we've talked about two below too and VI and the
next keep off the rank you mentioned second five and Blindside.
While we've spoken about Locke, we've seen the drop off
at Hooker when you get a few injuries. First five
(17:21):
is another one. Obviously Richie's Richie Wong is coming home
next year. But without given these players the exposure and opportunity,
they're not going to grow. And that's we've spoken about
around Ruben Love and the fact that he hasn't played
ten for the All Blacks yet. So they need opportunity,
they need exposure. And Scott Robinson's brought in nineteen rookies
(17:45):
in the past well eighteen months, and that is around
that four four to four plan. But there is a
big difference between ten minutes off the bench and twenty
thirty caps, So I don't think there's going to be
many opportunities to rotate on this tour. Players are probably
only going to get chances through injuries and maybe in
(18:09):
that final Test against Wales.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, it was interesting hearing him talk yesterday when you
name the squad around the greatest rivalry tour and the
probably taking forty plus players there and seventeen games with
the All Blacks next year with those tour games against
the likes of the USC side, so there's an opportunity there,
But by that point you're just over a year away
from the World Cup, and yeah, There'll be opportunities there
(18:31):
to have some midweek games and give players, you know,
All Blacks experience, but again you're taking forty plus players.
There'll be to probably define midwek group and a test group,
but you can't wait for that opportunity, I don't think
to get these players on the park.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Oh and opportunities at this level are so limited, aren't they?
And the All Blacks have missed opportunities when you go
back to last year, in particular to evolve the group
and to make changes. I think they've been better in
their area this year. We've seen them mate changes for
the third Test against France and the most recent Bledislow.
Four of the sevens darting changes were injury and forced,
(19:10):
but some of those players really stepped up, and I
think we need to see a bit more of there,
and we need to see them be a bit more
brave and bold.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Any any further comments on that too? Before we kept
taking quick break? Take a quicker break? Excuse me on
RAPI direct.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
What is it the best sixty six players in New
Zealand And and what does that tell you about where
the game's at?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Well?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I think it is the best sixty six I mean
there's a few injuries, for one, and that would change
the complexion of that group. And no, because you know,
I think Dylan Pleagure is doing the right to be
in that top six half backs in the country at
this point in time. I think there's probably a few
others that you could quibble over as well, and so yeah,
(19:56):
I would say.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
No, yeah, yeah, I think Pleasures should be there. I
think that's a misstep. But he's probably also a guy
that could come in and take Super rugby by storm
next year and potentially go straight into the all blacks environment.
I think he really is that good and NPC is
a couple of ruings down, but he just seems to
(20:19):
have time and composure and the full box of tricks
and speed to the base. I think he's a real
point of difference that they will look to enhance. And
they've got Noah Hotham and court his at Artimo behind
cam royguard. But as we sit here now, I think
Dylan Pledger will be really knocking on the door. I
(20:42):
think he will be in the World Cup squad.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yeah. Yeah. He's a young bloke, hasn't played Super Rabia level,
but looks to have the entire package. Just back to
sever Reese, we were talking about him before. He's not
going to get a lot of game time. I don't
think on those two, barring injuries. There's been a lot
of clamoring for Caleb Toungy Tower potentially from what I
saw of the NPC this year. For Auckland, I thought
(21:04):
he was found out defensively on a number of occasions,
and I think that's a big work on in his game.
But I think that raw ability on the attacking side
is something that they want to harness. Fihaki is another one.
I think, you know, in terms of an aerial threatening
what Test rugby is at the moment, he's probably you know,
one of the tor swingers going around, would have liked
(21:25):
to see him maybe in the mix. But you know,
for me, it feels like hang on to sev Reese
just a little bit too long. He's only contracted twenty
twenty six of New Zealand rugby. It feels like he's
been given up on on at Test level at this point.
Now he may get an opportunity on this end of
the year tour, but it feels like they hang on
to him, and this probably circles back to the earlier point,
(21:47):
to be a training partner more than actually being a
prospect for the twenty twenty seven World Cup.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
What's an unwillingness to take a chance on someone and
to stick with someone too long. That's been there. But
the signs were there this time last year on the
Alblex Northern Tour when Sevu had a couple of brain
explosions and he was gas in that French test. That
was a real stark image of a winger not in
(22:14):
his prime. So and then when you see some of
these all blacks go back to provincial rugby, you'd expect
them to dominate. And yes, it's not necessarily easy to
go straight back in and fit into a system that
you haven't been a part of and gel with teammates immediately.
But we've seen it with some players. As I mentioned before,
Luke Jacobson was really good, but others like sie Vorice
(22:37):
when he went back to Southland, he looked like he
was stuck in the MUDs. Even Riquewuani going back to Auckland,
he didn't do anything. Really. I thought Antonina Brown didn't
really show out for Waikato. So some of these guys
that are on the periphery of the All Blacks, then
went back to provincial rugby and haven't stepped up as
(22:57):
you'd hope, so I think that's another telltale sign as
well to.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Papel, I think has been very good for counties this
year and had to slim to eight with Hoskins to
two do add injured another string to his by I
mean you can play six, he can play eight, He
can play obviously open side flanker. To me, he's got
more of an upside at this point in time than
Luke Jacobson, especially in a bench capacity for the All Blacks,
So I would have liked to see him perhaps coming
to that main squad, but not to be right. We'll
(23:23):
wrap it up there for the first half of the podcast.
Come back second half after this plenty to get stuck
into in the Final four.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Ever try try and sixty sec every tackle tackles get.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Up again, well I take him before.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Times Rugby Direct, Ladies talk, Welcome back to the Final
four on Rugby Direct. Pound by four kule of solutions
lifting you and your business to a higher level for
rugby topics In fact, five. We'll get into the first
one though. N PC semi finalists set and it's teams
one to four who qualified. No upsets per se. But boy,
(24:07):
that was a great weekend of NPC quarter finals from
Friday night right through to Sunday afternoon, all four games delivered.
I mean, I know, the Bay of Plenty blew out
Tasman in the end, but that was compelling in a
way as well. So great weekend for the NPC and
the semi finals are set up quite nicely.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Oh his magic, wasn't it? And I think the NPC
is still the essence of New Zealand rugby. You know,
defense isn't as sophisticated and suffocating. So some magic ball
and play and then just some dramatic finishes with Counties
pushing Canterbury to extra time and cam Miller slot in
(24:45):
that penalty what fifty meters out absolutely clutch kick. So yeah,
the magic of the NPC really really come into the
four and I think I'm on the Otago bamwagon. Actually
it's good to have.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Well South Islands, we'll take that as a whole. People
want to see Otago Canterbury final.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Well I'm not sure about that. Has taking a real
leap of faith there.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
No, I think the people fine large, I mean, oh tuggle,
Look as long as it's in the South Island, we
don't need these mythical bays. Don't worry about that. Topy
number two. R three sixty takes a hammer below a
whole bunch of unions last week saying that we will
not pick players out of R three sixty should this
competition start. I mean, no surprises from New Zealand Rugby.
(25:30):
They don't pick anyone outside of Super Rugby, so no
surprise with them. But some of those other unions signing
up basically a big blockade in the way, And to me,
it puts R three sixty into a corner of being
a rebel league and that's probably not a place they
want to be because it makes you know, I'm sure
when they've been signing up players or getting expressions of
(25:52):
interest in the background, there would have been a lot
of talk saying, hey, you still be able to play
test rugby. You know, we want to align with the regulation.
Nine windows will release you for that, no trouble at all.
But when those unions are saying we won't pick them,
it paints them as a rebel league and now becomes
very very difficult, I think to recruit players.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
It does, yeah, and it heightens the pressure to recruit
NRL players, fringe super rugby players, and that significantly diminishes
your ability to market this league to captivate fans, and
that was always going to be a struggle anyway. I've
had a lot of discussion about this, even with mates,
(26:29):
and one of them compared it to the IPL and
I was like, well, yes, but absolutely not, because the
IPL had a captivated fan base, rabid cricketing fan base,
and personally I don't actually have a lot of interest
in the IPL either. But this concept are three six
is talking about a traveling circus going around Barcelona and Dubai,
(26:54):
and I just can't see it's capturing fans. And they're
now in a situation where they're going to have to
effectively survive for two years through to the twenty seven
World Cup, when a whole host of players may actually
take a look at it and look at cashing out.
But can they survive that long? As I think there's
(27:15):
a consortium eight eighty five that are bank rolling it,
have they got the capital to stick with it? Will
it survived two years. Really, it's a long long runway
to get off the grounds and are going to be
losing money hand of a fist, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
That may not matter to them depending on who the
investors are, they may be prepared to wear that, but
it takes that machine off the league. I think in
terms of you might be able to get a big
fish if they're still able to play tests rugby, you
might be able to and then you know, you get
one fish, you might be able to get two or
three more. At the moment, you're probably going to get
what Ryan Papenhou's and rod to ty vasishek. Well, I
(27:56):
can see these well, could have seen these players in
the NRL week in week out playing a competition that
was much more interesting.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
And they're a big deal in Australasia.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Who really knows about them in Barcelona or do By?
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Yeah? And yeah is anyone going to go along? And
I just don't see what the selling point is for
viewers in New Zealand and Australia to watch this. You
look at in New Zealand, there's not the market for
anything outside of Super Rugby and the NPC. In terms
of competitions, the English Premiership I think is on Sky,
but virtually no one watch it. Barely anyone here watches
(28:32):
the Six Nations. The USC is not on TV anymore,
the French Top fourteen's not on TV. The Japanese thing,
I think you get one game a week through Rugby Pars.
It's for the really die hard fan that wants to
watch that. So if you're not watching any of these
overseas leagues, now, why would you watch R three sixty
with a bunch of players that you know you've previously
watched in NRL and other competitions.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
I don't get it, that's right, it's going to struggle
to get cut through. One interesting I've heard around R
three six is that they're not going to have a
broadcast and necessarily there's going to go on YouTube and
try and I guess grab fans that way. And that's
probably a smart play for a new entring into the market,
and that would allow content creators and maybe to capture
(29:17):
attention via social media. That's something that's traditional rugby doesn't
do well. It's very restrictive and what it allows people
to clip up and to show on socials and all
those sorts of things. So maybe that's a feather in
the cap, but it still has to get off the ground.
It still has to have people that you want to watch,
(29:39):
and it still has to produce a decent product.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
It does. Topic three. Josh shakumsigns for the Highlanders in
twenty twenty seven. Interesting on both sides of this. The
factor that's come out now there's been a bit of
chatter that they Chiefs, that Honders wanted the Chiefs to
release him. Jacob wanted to go. Even some of the
quotes and the media release seem pretty pointed to the
(30:03):
fact that maybe they can try and get him early.
But as it stands, twenty twenty seven a good signing
for the Highlanders, but they're going to have to wait.
As it stands, what do you think is a possibility
a deal might get done.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
There great signing for the Highlanders and great move for Josh.
Jacob had to happen. He has stagnated, we haven't seen
enough of him and he pretty much not wasted, but
he's been on ice and we've seen again another rung
down at provincial level. But just how influential he can
(30:37):
be and he could be a game changer for the
Highlanders with some of those other young guys coming through
as a real momentum building down there with some of
the recruitments. I don't see the Chiefs releasing him early.
It's not in their interests. I can understand why Jacob
would want to go, but I think he's also a
(30:58):
professional and he'll dig in and do his part for
the Chiefs. But for the benefit of the competition and
the individual and the case Jacob, I think the Chiefs
probably should release them, but it's not in their interests,
not in their interests.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
But they did from memory get Joshuvani early out of
the Highlanders. I think he was released from the Highlanders
when was that twenty twenty one ish to go up
a year early to the Chiefs. So it has gone
the other way, and you know, different coaches, different management
in place, and.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
You know, well, same case with Brady McAllister.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
This year they've got Bradie Mcalliss there. So yeah, it's
not in their interest And we're far, far, far, far
far far down the track for planning for Super Rugby.
A lot of signings have been made et cetera. For
for next year. They may not have a really made replacement.
But for me yeah, you know it's gone up to
the Chiefs. Maybe they should just returned the favor and
(31:54):
you know down South would have been perhaps the noble
thing to do, but you know they're for their own interest.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
I guess, yeah, I guess if you're John and Gibbs
coming into your first year's head coach, you want all
the depth fifteen Yeah you can.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
I guess when you've lost four finals whatever it is
in a row, you need every possible answer that you
can out topic cup. Before Carter Gordon returns to the
Wallaby's one nrral game look at a pretty horrible and
drum and a weird way. You're great signing for the
ends after for Australian Rugby, getting him back and you know,
the player of immense promise. I think for both the
(32:27):
Reds and the Wallabies. I think he could have had
a pretty good league career if it wasn't for the
fact he basically got hamstrung so to speak, by the
back injury that he suffered this year, only got one
game and he's got the league build. To me, would
have been quite interesting to see how he goes there.
But in terms of that path towards twenty twenty seven.
I'm not saying he's the chosen one, but I think
it's a bit of a boost for the depth of
(32:49):
Leskis in both the Reds roll next year and also
when he takes over the Wallabies.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
It was a massive indictment on Australian rugby and the
Eddie Jones era that he departed in the first place,
because yeah, he looked the goods and he still had
some developments in terms of game management, but he has
build his boots, his ability to challenge the line. It's
no surprise that the Wallabies have immediately put him back
(33:15):
in that squad, and interestingly, with Tom Liner, they're not
taking him on the Northern Tour to give him a
chance to recover. I think he's still twenty two years old,
but a big win for Rugby Australia and the Reds. Interestingly, again,
Carter Gordon and Tom Lion are going head to heads
for the ten jersey. Probably not ideal. Maybe Gordon could
play twelve or Line could play fifteen and a pinch
(33:38):
there is some depth in that Red's environments. Yeah, I guess,
on reflectioning, a bit of a shame that Gordon effectively
lost two years of his career by going to league.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, it took a punt on it didn't work out.
Titan's Scotch have changed all sorts of changes there. Don't
blame for coming back, but yeah, real shame because you know,
if he had a full year in the saddle, two
years in the saddle, who knows.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Where could have been starting at against the lines.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, so probably kicking himself over that a little bit
in retrospect before we go this probably last time was
each other face to face before Chicago. So give us
your Grand Slam predictions.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Well, I think it's important to note the context. No
Grand Slam for the Ax for fifteen years, they've won
five in history. Well, first of all, there's a bit
of chat about this. Is it a Does it qualify
as a Grand Slam tour? With the All Blacks and
Island playing in Chicago?
Speaker 3 (34:33):
I think it does. I don't think you can behold
rugby in twenty twenty five to the same standards as
previous years. Rugby's completely changed. It's not like they're playing
all four away or in neutral venues. I think you
can still classified as a Grand Slam and going about
twenty five years, the idea of the All Blacks playing
(34:54):
Island Chicago would have been preposterous or about fifty it
certainly would have been preposterous. But this is the way
we're in now, and it's a game where you know
they're both on the ticket. No one's home team. To me,
I think it's still cancers to Grand Slam.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Yeah, it's a much harder game for the All Blacks
if it's in Dublin, so it's an easier Grand Slam
Tour on paper. But it is a modern world and
it's not like the All Blacks are forcing Island to
go to Chicago. This is a mutually beneficial match for
both unions. Are both going to probably take walk away
(35:31):
of a million bucks each. And yeah, this is a
modern environment and it's pretty common every year, so I
think we'll see more Grand Slam Tours like this in
the future. So for me, it does still qualify. Prediction wise,
I don't think they get the Grand Slam. I don't
think on the basis of what we've seen this year,
I could sit here and predict that they are. I
(35:52):
think they lose at least one test on this tour.
What say you?
Speaker 3 (35:57):
I think they do as well? I can't tell you
which game, but I just think, similar to you, that
string together full performances in a row is going to be.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Difficult, particularly with some of those injury out. You're starting
to test depth in important areas.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Having said that, with all due respect to our Welsh listeners,
if they get to three on the board, I'm not
sure that the Welsh will stop them getting the Grand Slam.
But stranger things have happened.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
That's right. The Scotland Test worries me a little bit.
Scotland never beat the All Blacks. They've knocked over England
a lot in recent times. In Edinburgh. It'll be cold,
it'll be dark. I remember, I think it was the
last All Black Test there under Ian Foster and the
All Blacks were right up against it for sixty odd minutes.
(36:44):
And does this All Black team have the ability to
pull it out in the last twenty because you know,
Scotland at home are a difficult prospect.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Last time they were there in twenty two as well
Mark Talas scoring on debut, they got themselves out of
it a little bit of a hole there. You know,
Scotland are a good team, really good team. So yep,
it sounds I think they'll lose one of those games,
but I don't know one. It'll be to us right,
We direct for another week thanks to Forklift Solutions lifting
(37:14):
you and your business to a higher level of thanks
as well to Carry Sure for producing this week. We
will see you next time.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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