November 2, 2025 • 38 mins
On the latest edition of Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier wrap up the All Blacks win over Ireland at Soldier Field and analyse the efforts of the All Blacks' bench in sealing the victory, while also pondering the success of the venture overall.
We also look ahead to this weekend's match at Murrayfield and what to expect.
Also, we look at the other games of the weekend and update the search for the new NZR CEO.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from Newstalks EDB. Follow this
and our Wide Ranger podcast now on iHeartRadio Sight Down the.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Middle, Try.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Exis Solutions, celebrating twenty
five years in business. We are in Chicago still Elliott
Smith with me Liam Napier as we mop up the
All Blacks win recording on a beautiful Sunday morning. There's
some sort of marathon going on in the street around us.
I don't know if you've had a look or joined
in for it. We sort of five k or something
(00:59):
like that. But you know, the Daylight Savings ended here.
But it's been been a great week in Chicago, and
even bitter week for the All Blacks, Liam, who emerge
twenty six to thirteen winners. Of course, over Ireland wasn't perfect,
and for sixty minutes it was looking fairly dire in
terms of the performance but also a spectacle in many regards.
(01:22):
But the All Blacks kicked home in the last twenty
minutes with a really good last quarter performance that maybe
you know, even might even be the best twenty minutes
of the Scott Robertson era, to be honest. So top
line thoughts, what did you make of the Soldier Field
game for the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well, the final impression you have to is last thing,
isn't it the way the All Blacks finished that game
scoring three tries It could have been four but for
a four pass. So they really dismantled Ireland and that
last quarter came over the top of them. And from
a fitness perspective as well, I'm not sure if the
red card had a factor there. Maybe Ireland coming in cold.
(02:03):
I think the All Blacks pre match were confident that
they were going to have superior fitness and that certain
showed prior to that. I've got to be honest, I
did not see that last quarter coming. The All Blacks
were really erratic, lots of erarors. I think at one
point they conceded ten straight penalties. They were getting penalized
for backchat at one point, and nothing was really going right.
(02:27):
I know they had a number of injury, setbacks and disruptions,
but it was I was sitting there thinking, this is
their tenth tests of the year. They've had a week
and a half to prepare for this game. Island and
a crimlin and cold, and yet it's the All Black set.
Looked like they've been stuck in the garage too long.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
But your it's not like Ireland looked any better. In
all honesty, No they didn't. And for that sixty minutes,
perhaps a better team would have taken advantage of the
All Blacks, you know, not being able to stringk phases together,
conceding a number of penalties. But Islands looked cold. They
looked old. I thought at times, so a lot of
(03:03):
those players and lacked any ingenuity in chums in terms
of trying to attack the All Blacks. So take fo
long scores in the first half, but really it never
felt like I threatened too often after that. In all honesty,
they managed to accumulate a couple of penalties. But I
thought Islands didn't take advantage of what the All Blacks
(03:24):
were serving up. No they didn't.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
I mean, you got to give them credit for managing
a twenty minute period one man short. They won that
They're up ten to seven at halftime. I think if
we deal with that red card in the first instance,
I thought it was harsh. Yep, it was a extremely
poorly handled. It took I don't know how long, but
the first half took fifty two minutes. And that was
(03:46):
a big factory when you can just give a yellow
card and decided off the field. I couldn't believe how
long it took. They couldn't show the replay on the
big screen. They went off and did a var football style.
It was a shambles get into that decision. And I
thought it was harsh. It was a forward pass. Tug
(04:08):
Burn had no time to react. There wasn't a lot
of force involved. There's certainly no intents. I understand the
rules around shot shoulder to the head, but I thought
yellow car would would have been sufficient. But you are right,
Islands were largely predictable. They didn't throw a great deal
of surprises at the All Blacks. Wasn't really any special
(04:30):
plays up their sleeve. And yeah, I guess the narrative
around Islands being tired, being old, been on the decline
after going from first to third, and the six Nations
came to the fore, didn't they, Because as you say,
you know, the All Blacks were decidedly poor and Ireland
(04:51):
did not take advantage of that. Jack Crowley missed one
penalties too that would have put Island up by nine points.
Maybe that would have had a bit more scoreboard pressure,
but they just they never really could put their foot
on the throat, and the All Blacks were making so
many eras.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
They stayed in the fight in spite of themselves at
many times that they fold. They couldn't string phases together,
were conceding penalties, weren't building pressure and able to enter
the Irish twenty two often enough until that sixty minute
mark when they basically just took off into the stratosphere
on that red card. I think it signified in many
ways I'm always the one the troubles that Rugby's got.
(05:32):
I mean, that was a fastically long wait to reach
the yellow card threshold decision. Now there was a chick
check call from Ian ten piece to TMO. They couldn't
get it on the big screen at that point. Peerbrew
Sitter is on field referee. He needs to take some
ownership and go, okay, we're gonna get it the big screen.
What's your advice? What's your advice to me? Is it
a yellow card? Bang? Done? Wasted so much time? Get
(05:52):
on with it. Yeah, and they were trying to get
this on the big screen, get that fix in the background.
This is a spectacle, This is entertainment, and for too
many games rugby wastes its time and legallyes that is
not interesting to the spectators who have already made up
their own minds having seen the play, probably at home.
And then you look at the yellow card red card itself.
(06:14):
What are we doing here? There's nothing that Tiger Boone
could do to change his line to effect a lower
tackle on Boden Barrett. It was a four parts from
regard to Barrett. I thought as well, so that should
mitigate what happens after it. And to a man, I've
not seen virtually anyone that suggests that it should be
(06:36):
a red card, and Rugby just got a tell once again,
tangled and knots around trying to avoid lawsuits rather than
actually playing the game that matters on the field at
that point in time.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Yeah, I feel like the Southern hemisphere is much better
at for shading with some form of common sense around
these things. And there is a massive difference between a
rugby incidents and foul play, and this was not really
foul play, as you say it was a split second
reactionary decision. He's basically he barely tackled him. He's just
(07:07):
he's up, Boden runs into him and yeah, there's a
bit of contact with the shoulder, but there's no force involved.
So just have a bit of common sense and put
it in a rugby lens rather than trying to, you know,
appease world rugby. And yeah, the head needs to be protected,
but this is a fast moving contact sports and you
(07:32):
do need to preserve the spectacle and just have a
bit of common stay.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I thought Paid lost control of their game from that
point onwards, and kind of his decision making I thought
was very bizarre at times. In the first half he
was happy to award free kicks at scrum time, and
then the second half he wasn't. He was resetting, reseitting, reseitting,
and the game had aready gone on lengthy at that point,
but he decided basically change his mind at halftime, going
(07:58):
from free kick can go, I'm not reseitting that to resetting. Oh.
I thought it was a pretty poor performance from the referee.
What if the All Blacks do well in that last
twenty minutes to be able to dismantle Island like they
did Limb.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it, but I
think first and foremost impact from the bench, Well, when
you look at it in its entirety, you had lestifying
and knock who come on about the eighteenth sixteenth, eighteenth
minute for Jordy Barrett and make an immediate impression by
beating Gary Ringrose offloading Will Jordan to set up Artist
Severe's try. So I thought he was really good here.
(08:33):
Josh Lord come on in the third minute and play
seventy seven minutes. Can't remember the last time he did that.
The All Blackers line out struggled on their own ball,
but they dismantled Island's lineup, So a big tick I
think for Josh Lord's and then later in the match
Wallace the tt Hue in his dynamic ball carrying to
Mighty Williams overpowering the Irish scrum. I thought Pasilio Tossi
(08:58):
is a big mover in recent times for the All
Blacks and Damian McKenzie providing some real attacking sparks. So
there's been some real concerns around the world where the
All Blacks have finished games. But the bench had a
massive impact, and I think you have to give them
credit for remaining composed and being courageous in the way
(09:19):
they played. They I felt the All Blacks when it
wasn't going well, I was sort of going side to
side and quite lateral. They I think they were a
lot more direct and that ball carrying punch had a
massive impact. It freed up a lot of space, allowed
them to go wide, and they finished really well. It
was really clinical. So there's a number of factors there,
(09:39):
and it's great to see because Blecks have been under
pressure and they have really struggled in those final quarters,
probably for the entirety of Robertson's reign, really you have.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
It's been an ongoing issue and it did It's one game,
but it feels like that was the blueprint for them
going forward. And I suppose immediately out of that, you go,
do we move lestifying a kookle into the starting side?
Do you you know, does watch the TV put pressure
on Peter Luckeye or sign Parker go back into that pack.
For me, I kind of want to see that bench
(10:12):
roll out again and have sixteen to twenty three own
that role. You aren't always going to be able to
roll out those same seven that's right, eight players. But
I kind of think that if you can develop a bench,
which is what Scott Robertson was trying to do last
year and didn't really get to it, then you can
do what we saw from the All Blacks in that
last twenty And that's what the hallmark of that All
(10:34):
Blacks era from twenty eleven to twenty sixteen was is
that they would have a very strong bench and absolutely
demolish you in the last twenty twenty five minutes of games.
And that's what they prided themselves on. We haven't really
seen that over to be honest, and that includes that
the Foster and the latter part of the Hanson era
that didn't really see that. So we hasten to be
too really going fine and look who must start, But
(10:55):
I think he's got to play a role at some
point in the match in the eighty he's got to
be in that team.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, and you'll point up there about the depth, So
the bench comes back to depth. Then that's probably been
whittled away. You know, when Neil Blacks are at their
peak on the hands, they had a phenomenal bench they're
bringing off you know, you think about the twenty fifteen
World Cut, Boden barretton and these sort of guys off
off the bench, So what a luxury to have. And
(11:21):
I guess Scott Robinson is starting to try and build
that four four four depth. It's certainly going to be
tested on this tour with guys like Jordi Barrett and
Scott Barrett already going down. You're already missing to provide
Patrick two plot Tyro Lomax, So it was a big tick.
Your point about, yeah, whether to start or keep wise
(11:44):
on the bench is very pertinent and an interesting one because, yeah,
we've seen the priority put on benches and the impact
in this match that it can have. Fining a nook.
You probably will go and to start at the center
this week, you'd suspect with Quinn switching to second five,
(12:04):
So maybe Rico comes onto the bench and maybe that
mitigates the impact somewhat. I think there's a real question about, well,
a couple of points I'll throw to you, Walla. I'd
probably like to see him start. I'm not sold on
Simon Parker. I thought he was reasonably underwhelming or anonymous
in this game, and I think we have seen that.
(12:26):
I understand the balance that you want from your loose
forward Traier, but I think you have Titi, Lackeye and
Ardi that's pretty dynamic. And the other question McKenzie, I
think him and Boden Barratt combined really well. And so
do you start McKenzie at fullback and have Will Jordan
(12:47):
on the right wing. There these are things that are
in the mix. But then it's back to your question
about does that less than the impact of the bench.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I think you can look at both of those. So
t I think I made the point last week on
the podcast is that he's had a tough year with
injury and it might be better getting thirty minute blocks
out of him, and obviously came on before halftime when
Parker went off with the HIA as well getting a
blockout of him in a game and not having to
suggest he plays eighty minutes for the rest of the
(13:18):
year and get into a super ruggye preseason. So that
may be the better outcome for these three matches. But
I agree around Parker is that you're still waiting for
him to have that breakout test match. He's been solid,
He's very good defensively, makes a lot of impactful tackles.
But there are works of traditionally liked having someone that
could do both sides of the ball from the blindside flank,
and we're probably not seeing that from Parker at the
(13:41):
moment on the back line thing like, I think he
could roll that out in a game. Also, I don't
know they'd be the first choice combination. You could easily
move will Jordan to the right wings. He played the
majority of his Test career there. Mackenzie at full back
and Bowden Barrett at ten. That's the combination I think
they went with in Wellington when they got belted by
South Africa. I'm not saying that was responsible on that night,
(14:03):
but I think you're right, Barrett McKenzie work well together.
But is it a symptom of McKenzie being able to
take on tied defenders in the last stage in the match? Yeah,
Rather than can he do that at minute one? Can
they combine like that from minute one to minute eighty?
Can they better do it in minutes fifty five to
eighty and try and take the game away from the
opposition there. So it's a fascinating question. I think find
(14:26):
a nook who has to be in the match Day
twenty three somewhere and on the right wing, Leroy Carter
probably didn't have who was the first test students who
are a try actually but didn't have a lot of
say in that game. I made the point last night
that I thought the field was too narrow for someone
like Litroy Card. It'd actually get too much ball. So
interesting to see what they do as they lead into
Scotland this week.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, I think they're but limited. I don't expect to
see too many changes. I think they're prioritizing this Grand Slam.
You know, Scott Robertson needs a successful tour to hang
his head on, and a Grand Slam would certainly be that.
And look, Scotland a very competitive team, particularly at home.
(15:09):
They've knocked over England a lot in recent years. At Murrayfield.
They are probably more dynamic in their attacking play than
a lot of the teams up North and Russell are
very inventive, attacking minded first five and that bat Irish.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Sorry.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
The Scotland back line in particular has some threats right
across the park there. I don't think they'll be able
to match the All Blacks up front. I think that's
where the All Blacks will come for them, but I
think we'll see largely sticking to that team, with the
exception of the injuries. What do you make of Quinti
(15:48):
pier Lester defying Anoku midfield combination the Bash brothers.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, I don't mind it. Actually, I don't know that
it'd be a first choice combination, but I'm intrigued to
see how it goes. And we saw it for a
large deal of that game and neither of them look
particularly out of place. Quinte Paie is comfortable at second five,
He's played majority he was rugby there, fighting Anku has
spent the last two or three years at Tulon playing
in that position as well. I think it's worth a
(16:15):
going And you look at who they're probably not going
to match up against for Scotland this week, you got
sort who they're probably coming up against. I'm not sure
who they'll what combination they'll go with the outside. They've
got a number of options there, but that might be
the option. The horses to courses approach at the all
Blacks make for this test matches, they go, this is
(16:36):
the combination we go go with as probably the path
of least disruption you could bring in a Rico Yuani
potentially or Antonine Brown who's adept at twelve or thirteen played.
Billy Proctor started seven Tests this year at center. Yeah,
it didn't take his chance and I don't think you
could argue with the change that they've made there. No,
(16:57):
so instantly we're seeing the impact that to players made
and fighting anuku. So surely for this Test match in particular,
if we just viewed in isolation that you've got to
go with that combination, don't.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, you do. And look, I've been in pre spy
a Leicester. He's only played two Tests in two years
that since coming back from two years in France, and
I think this would be his first start for the
All Blacks at center. He's pretty much played on the wing.
But I've talked to him about this and he's fairly
open about the fact that he's a midfielder now first
(17:30):
and foremost, and I think that's where his strengths lies
all right, with his ball carrying, with his power is offloading.
I think from center there's probably still a question about
his distribution. But on the wing, I think he's a
bit wasted, doesn't see as much ball and would probably
be targeted under the high ball. So yeah, I'm very
intrigued to see him get a crack from the outset,
(17:50):
and I think he could be a really leath way
set because even if he's not busting the line, he
demands attention, so he's going to free up space elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, I think you're exactly only saw that break he
made to set up what ended up in an artist
ove of you try in the right wing corner. It's
soldier field as well. Scott Barrett with a laceration, as
Scott Robinson put it in the postmatch media conference, sounds
pretty nasty. Don't know the full effexes yet. I'm sure
the lot Davis in the next couple of days, but
probably unlikely to play against Scotland, you would think.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, I think so. I mean without seeing it or
being told exactly, you don't know the extent of it,
but you think back to Tyro or Lomax at the
World Cup. I think it took him three weeks at
least to come right. So I did see a lot
of blood on Scott Bratt's leg and it's around the
knee area, which is a bit niggly because that's where
(18:43):
it bends. So he would have had to probably try
and keep that straight as you're blacks jetted.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Out on hopefully business class raises.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Jet has already put it last night from Chicago to
Edinburgh that the all blacks, what do we Sunday morning
in Chicago? They already in Edinburgh. So that will allow
him to have a four weeks preparation. But yeah, big
setback for Scott brat this. I think that's a fourth
chest he's missed this year. So from getting some form
of flow and fluidness into his game, it's it's he's
(19:16):
had a lot of disruptions and Ardie that the captaincy
is becoming quite interchangeable as well.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
It is, yeah, and I suspect will do it against Scotland.
This week we saw Fabi and Holland who's only twenty three,
only twenty three. In October, Josh Lord combined twenty three
years old twenty four year old Josh Lord. Holland had
played nineties matches going into yesterday's game. Lord had played
eight over a four year period and they were forced
(19:43):
to combine them. It wasn't a perfect line out the thing.
They had a few steals, not straight throws et cetera,
et cetera.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
I think the Island's line operated at sixty nine percent
in all Blacks seventy five, So yeah, not a great
day for reason.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Not great, definitely not, but the All Blacks found like
they pinched more and probably those stats reflect that than
Ireland was able to get off them in the end.
And for a while now it's been sort of Josh Lord,
what is he in the All Black squad? Forward hasn't
played a lot of rugby really, including at chiefs level
NPC level through his young career. Well wouldn't level it
(20:19):
a coming of age performance, but there were signs that
you go, okay, I can see why he's been a
part of this All Black squad across a four year
period and what he's potentially able to do. He was
calling the line out, so as soon as he came
on it's a big leadership role for someone like him
who's actually got less test experience. In Fabian Holland, I
thought it was convincing outing from Josh Lord that you go, okay,
(20:42):
we can see what you're doing there.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
It was easily his biggest contribution to the All Blacks.
So I remember, I'm I think starting in Argentina one
test a couple of years ago, and that was his
last real impression in my mind anyway. So yeah, to
come off three minutes and as you say, call the
line out, steal a bit of ball, be prominent around
the park. It was a breakout performance for him and
(21:07):
he'll have to go again next He look like is
pretty bruised up on the side of his face. So
the All Black's locking depth is going to be seriously tested.
It's akin to the half back ranks earlier this year
when they were forced to go five and sixty. You're
probably gonna have a situation where Sam Dowry comes onto
the bench. They've got Summer Penny female who can potentially
(21:28):
cover lock but Asiah Walker, Leah Wed and Arkoy both
didn't go on the All Blacks fifteen tour, so there's
a potential for Josh Berry or a Caleb Delaney to
have to be called in as cover, depending on how
bad Scott Barrett is.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, Jamie Hannah was a Black call up to that
tour as well for the All Blacks fifteen, which we'll
get into in a wee moment or two, so they
might have to get someone. I think They've got the
England a side in Bath, so obviously they're going to
be in the one continent this week and they can
easily call in someone submission to see they pull into camp.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Is it a concern that locking depth.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I don't think so. I think if they're going to
get in a Josh Bury or a Caleb Delaty, I
think they are underprepared for Test Rugby, no doubt about it.
But similar to the halfback death, it's only a moment
in time. I think the lock and depth is very,
very good because when you add in a full strength
to po Vi, Patrick, Toopolo who, Scott, Barrett, Fabi and
holand Josh Lord five very good locks. So I don't
(22:32):
think it's a concern. When you get to six seven,
as the kids say, you're getting into the depth and
you're not often having to go that deep. So I
don't think it's a huge concern for me personally. No.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I think you're right. It could be a concer. You
get one more ding on this tour and you're starting
to dig pretty deep, and we saw that with the
half backs. But yeah, it's good for these guys to
get that exposure and without knowing you would expect to
see Scott Barrett push pretty hard to be available for
that England Test, because it does feel like that's going
(23:05):
to be the one to define this tour now.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Indeed, keep a cross insit here all dot co to
insin for all the updates. We will be onto Edinburgh.
Will take a quick break, come back with the final
four after this on Rugby directs.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Every try, try ten, sixty secondary tackle to tackle tackles,
Get up again.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
A more Rugby direct.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
You're back with Rugby direct By Access Solutions, celebrating twenty
five years in business. Time. Now for the final four
for Rugby topics there myself debate them Liam. The success
of the United States venture over the last week or
so as we built into this test, the test match itself,
the product, the fan fear around it, the event. What
(23:58):
did you make of the Chicago Test?
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yeah, look, I think it is a success. It was
a we want to a function now. The night and
heard the that they sold fifty thousand tickets in one
day for this game and that was across was it
thirty forty odd States?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I thought it was all fifty from memory, I'm be wrong.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Yeah, that's pretty impressive. I'm not sure it was actually
was full yesterday. From my vantage point, it did look
there were like there were a few empty seats. I
heard that there were a number of all the tickets
were sold, but I heard there were a number being scalped,
which is beyond organizers' control. I think from a revenue perspective,
(24:43):
this as apparently the All Blacks biggest gate taking because
it's a sheered gate since the British and Irish Lions tour,
so that's very significant. The coffers will be well stopped.
They got around a number of major sponsors, They won
the match. The spectacle itself, I think left a lot
to be desired prior to that last twenty minutes, very
(25:06):
stop start, very clunky, over officiated, not a great watch,
but the All Blacks probably left a great impression by
the way they finished that game, so I think a
lot of boxes ticked. I think the players really enjoy
coming here. They like America, they like going to the
NBA and the Black Hawks. I think it's a very
valuable experience and by the sounds, the All Black San
(25:28):
Island plan to come here, if not every year. They're
pretty close to it. Not necessarily to Chicago, but I
think they will be back here, but certainly to the
States and the lead up to the twenty thirty one
World Cup.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, the only thing I'd say is it was a
success and there was a lot of Irish jerseys around
yesterday before the game, and a few All Blacks jerseys
as well. It was, as you say, sell out even
if it didn't appear, so it'd be good to see
them go elsewhere. I know, Chicago's got the huge Irish
population and diaspora, and that's why they come here. Soldier
Field itself perhaps a little bit tired. The turf wasn't great.
(26:05):
It's now the smallest NFL stadium I know. We saw
last week. The city's narrowed down or put their hands
up for World Cup games in twenty thirty one. Chicago's done.
So they are in the proceeds of trying to build
a new stadium for the Chicago Beers. It's going to
cost about three billion dollars. I think I read somewhere
last week there's a bit of haggling over who exactly
(26:25):
is going to pay for it, which sounds very familiar
to us. That have followed stadium debacles in New Zealand.
But I almost think they need to move it elsewhere
because I done Chicago. They've done two games, and it
was a bit of talk about a trilogy or rematch
last week, but in Chicago's clearly embraced it, and the
Sports Commission function that we went to. We're very excited
to have them here, but I think they ahead of
(26:47):
twenty thirty one. If this is going to work, they
need to move elsewhere. They were talking about Boston initially
for this game didn't work out because San Francisco could
go to the Narol sort of latched onto Vegas, but
you could go.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
There've been talk about the Pumas and Miami.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Miami, New York. Potentially there are other places you can go.
I mean, New York's got an Irish population as well,
if you want to do that. All Blacks Island thing
over again, and maybe you know the Fourth Test and
that Rugby's greatest rivalry could end up here next year.
As yet, you just don't know, so I would encourage
them to move. I mean, I've loved the time in Chicago,
but you can't just concentrate in Chicago. If you're going
(27:24):
to make this work.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, you're right, And I guess it works from an
all Black perspective because they have a lot of major
sponsors based here, right, So that's probably another driver for them.
But the goal for rugby is I think people will
tell you that if you can get one percent of
the American market that you have cracked it. Yeah, and
so you're right. This is one city, one state, And
(27:51):
if you're actually going to make a real impression, which
I think any sport outside the American traditional sports is
incredibly hard to do, then you do need to shift around.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Spread the gospel. Topic Number two the All Blacks fifteen
playing the Barbarians, which was very very much a sort
of South African sort of side plus bred Weather. I
know you saw a fear bit of this game. I
didn't see as much. What did you make of the
All Blacks fifteen performance?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, you're right. The Babba stack with Sapha's they scored
some rolling more tries are up nineteen Neil early and
I thought, oh shit, this is not going well.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
But the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Fifteen, I think they scored thirty three unanswered points. So
came back into that match really well. A good start
to their three match tour. I was really impressed by
Caleb Tongueytao Highlands' aucornd flyer on the on the wing.
He was perhaps a wee bit fortunate with his first try,
just had his fingers on the ball. Looked like he
(28:47):
pretty much dropped it to dive over the line. Sun
as many many coaches have said over the years, but
his pace as a Leith said, I think he's deserving
of a place in this All Black team. Now there's
an argument he's better off playing these All Blacks fifteen
games getting exposure.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I was.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
I think that the loose forwards played well Dalton Papa,
Lee Year and and others, and the halfbacks Xavier Row
and Kyle Preston. So yeah, really it's a good start
to that tour and interesting to see how they build
and rotates and whether you know, maybe a Reuben Love
goes back and plays for that team in the coming
(29:27):
weeks and others. Do you know, guys like Sevie Reese
and Luke Jacobson, Anton Lenna Brown they could do some
game time as well.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
They could do This might be the week to do so,
potentially potentially for them if I think ten. None knows
the tour I got out of the match.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah he was good as well. Yeah, he's a very
silky player, you know, great kicking game as well as finishing.
So I think Nick Evans and the commentary awarded him
Man of the match. So nice to hear a Kiwi voice.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah. Well, the All Blacks looking for a tech coach,
so maybe it was checking them out to see whether
he is interested in that topic. Number two Tom on
three Nather in the Final four England Australia. Well we'll
talk about it for some of the other matches as well,
but that was the probably the headline match outside all
that island. From our perspective, England very very good. I
(30:15):
thought twenty five points to seven. They stuck a stake
through the heart of Australia. The Wallabies where I thought abysmal.
Funnily enough, I only saw the first forty. You saw
the second forty, so we'll combined now for some thoughts.
But I didn't think Australia offered much on attack. Their
one try came from a Harry Potter ninety five meter
(30:35):
intercept and it was only what ten to seven a
half time, But you felt England we're going to open
this game up in the second spell, and they did
in the latter part of the game. But I thought
I've seen some mixed responses to the England performance, but
I thought they were pretty good.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yeah, I don't know if I was overly impressed by England.
They had I've gone back to George Ford at ten.
Alex Mitchell kicked. I think England kick among the most
teams in world rugby, something like one thousand meters per game.
They scored one try off for Alex Mitchell box kick.
But you're right, Australia were really underwhelming. Missing I think
three players they couldn't get access to for their English
(31:12):
clubs for this match, and it just starts starting to
feel like the Wallabies are hitting the wall a bit.
They've had the British and Irish lines tour, they've been
out to South Africa, they've played the All Blacks twice
and yeah, this was a pretty underwhelming performance. A good
one for England, but I don't think it was a
great one. They don't They're always hard to beat at Twickenham,
(31:34):
but I don't think the way they're playing, it's pretty conservative,
would strike fear through other teams, But when you compare
them to Ireland to start that Northern tour on that
sort of note, it's a notable victory.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Well is there four losses in a rona for the Wallabies.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Back to back to the All Blacks and Argentina. Yeah, yeah,
I think they've won five of eleven this year. So
for all the improvements that Joe Schmidt has made and
how competitive they were early in the year, it's still
a big task, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
It certainly is Scotland warming up for the All Blacks
with an eighty five nilwyn over the USA. Is that
good preparation? Hard to know? It's a game. I guess
they didn't have their entire first choice team out on
the park, the USA going backwards that are raided knots,
which is an overly encouraging head of twenty thirty one.
(32:30):
And South Africa beating Japan and Wembley. Pretty performance from Japan.
Sorry South Africa, but poor crowd weird this isdn't have
it at Wimbley when there's All Backs fifteen going on
across town. But more importantly England Australia at twicken them
three rugby matches on in one day you could have
had one of those on the Sunday, might have cleared
(32:50):
a bit of the schedule up and people could have
gone to both. Twenty three thousand I think was a crowd.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, and it looks a lot worse, doesn't it in
a massive venue like Wembley. I think that also probably
speaks to if you compare the spring Box and All
Blacks brand right like the Boxer back to World Cup
winners and there's a massive expat South African population lon
we've seen that, we've experienced it being there for the
(33:16):
spring Box and All Blacks, but they clearly don't have
the same lure.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
No. I think it's also the match as well that
we were ten years removed from the Brighton Miracle. Japan
Art the team they once were no fair and it's
kind of like here. You know, a lot of people said,
all you know, the All Blacks wouldn't sell out if
it wasn't Ireland, But Ireland wouldn't sell out if it
wasn't for the All Blacks. So you know, each team contributes,
I think to the game and the spectacle that's there
and the willingness of people to buy tickets. But felt
(33:43):
like a bit of chasing the coin there that probably
wasn't justified from the South African perspective.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, I think the Box now gone to play France
and then yep, that'll be a blockbuster. Very intrigued to
see who wins it and also how many of those
players it came out to New Zealand feature for that
French team.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, Will sure there'd be a few of them. The
guns coming back into the Mixan final four fourth topic
CEO chat for the All Black that's from New Zealand Rugby.
So machinations going on in the background of course, Mike
Robinson you'd leave soon ish from his role. What are
you hearing, Limb you've reported on this in the last
few days.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
There's a few developments there. All Lett that Matt Robinson
resigned four months ago and Sneeze On Rugby just held
interviews last week. They've appointed an interim CEO, Steve Lancaster,
the Community Rugby manager, because it sounds like Matt Robinson
finishes up in December and whoever they get is going
to have to serve a notice period, so they're not
(34:42):
going to have someone a replacement in place before probably
April next year. So Lancaster will sits in when Robertson finishes.
I'm hearing David White, the former New Zealand Cricket CEO
who has interviewed for the role, but the favorite it
sounds like is the CEO of Six Nations, Tom Harrison.
(35:04):
He also previously led the English and Welsh Cricket Board,
so he has experienced leading elite level rugby. His experience
in private equity and big business deals which I think
as a major factor that New Zealand Rugby want a
(35:25):
box for them to tick. But I'll ask you, from
a cultural rugby perspective, how much of a shift would
it be to have I guess a brit come and
lead New Zealand rugby, Particularly with the landscape of New
Zealand rugby and the dynamic of managing the the twenty
six provincial unions and how much.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Power they have, it would be tricky. You're not coming
in with a lot of institutional knowledge around how the
game works. You might have a broad idea of the
New Zealand structure, but in some ways that might be
a benefit to him that he can oversee things without
the inherent knowledge of the pus and the super rugby structure.
And the grassroots level and the women's game and everything that,
(36:08):
and can look at it from a clean canvas, it
can come as a bit of an outsider and maybe
that's what New Zealand rugby needs, is an outsider to
get the house right and get everything right. I wouldn't
be against the appointment necessarily to be a lot for
him to learn. But he comes to the rugby background
with England Cricket Board or the English and Wales Cricket
Board as their CEO for a few years as well,
(36:30):
so I think it'll be a big challenge getting used
to the New Zealand game, but I wouldn't be against
it necessarily either. I almost think that outsider would be
perhaps more preferential to someone like David White, who's held
a number of roles in New Zealand New Zealand cricket.
He was there for I think about a decade. In
the end, he's got the knowledge of how New Zealand
rugby works. I think he's at the Blues and the
(36:50):
Hurricanes of Wellington and Auckland potentially no doubting his credentials,
but I almost think that there would be a tired
appointment compared to someone like the Six Nation CEO. Someone
outsider can look at things a little bit differently, so
be intering see what happens there. It's think Lancaster has
got to be the interim CEEO.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
That's right, Yeah, certainly for at least three months. From
what I understand is a few nerves around, you know,
someone like Tom Harrison coming in and whether that would
pave the way for the Ragby Championship to move to
align with the Six Nations and those sorts of things.
So there's a lot of balls in the air, and
(37:32):
you know, as with any of these appointments, a lot
of speculation behind the scenes about what it might mean
for various people. So interesting to see where it goes.
News on Rugby's adamant they're going to make an appointment
pre Christmas, but whoever it is, it won't be in
place before April, so Lancaster will hold the fort. But yeah,
(37:52):
interesting to see what comes out in the next couple
of months.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Watch the space that'll do us for Ragby Direct from Chicago.
Look forward to catching up a bit later on in
the week from Edinburgh. Le made to thank you, as
always thanks to carry Shaw for producing that has been
Rapied reck Haired by Excess Solutions celebrating twenty five years
in business.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
For more from News Talks, ed B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
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You're listening to a podcast from Newstalks EDB. Follow this
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Speaker 2 (00:20):
Middle, Try.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Exis Solutions, celebrating twenty
five years in business. We are in Chicago still Elliott
Smith with me Liam Napier as we mop up the
All Blacks win recording on a beautiful Sunday morning. There's
some sort of marathon going on in the street around us.
I don't know if you've had a look or joined
in for it. We sort of five k or something
(00:59):
like that. But you know, the Daylight Savings ended here.
But it's been been a great week in Chicago, and
even bitter week for the All Blacks, Liam, who emerge
twenty six to thirteen winners. Of course, over Ireland wasn't perfect,
and for sixty minutes it was looking fairly dire in
terms of the performance but also a spectacle in many regards.
(01:22):
But the All Blacks kicked home in the last twenty
minutes with a really good last quarter performance that maybe
you know, even might even be the best twenty minutes
of the Scott Robertson era, to be honest. So top
line thoughts, what did you make of the Soldier Field
game for the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well, the final impression you have to is last thing,
isn't it the way the All Blacks finished that game
scoring three tries It could have been four but for
a four pass. So they really dismantled Ireland and that
last quarter came over the top of them. And from
a fitness perspective as well, I'm not sure if the
red card had a factor there. Maybe Ireland coming in cold.
(02:03):
I think the All Blacks pre match were confident that
they were going to have superior fitness and that certain
showed prior to that. I've got to be honest, I
did not see that last quarter coming. The All Blacks
were really erratic, lots of erarors. I think at one
point they conceded ten straight penalties. They were getting penalized
for backchat at one point, and nothing was really going right.
(02:27):
I know they had a number of injury, setbacks and disruptions,
but it was I was sitting there thinking, this is
their tenth tests of the year. They've had a week
and a half to prepare for this game. Island and
a crimlin and cold, and yet it's the All Black set.
Looked like they've been stuck in the garage too long.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
But your it's not like Ireland looked any better. In
all honesty, No they didn't. And for that sixty minutes,
perhaps a better team would have taken advantage of the
All Blacks, you know, not being able to stringk phases together,
conceding a number of penalties. But Islands looked cold. They
looked old. I thought at times, so a lot of
(03:03):
those players and lacked any ingenuity in chums in terms
of trying to attack the All Blacks. So take fo
long scores in the first half, but really it never
felt like I threatened too often after that. In all honesty,
they managed to accumulate a couple of penalties. But I
thought Islands didn't take advantage of what the All Blacks
(03:24):
were serving up. No they didn't.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
I mean, you got to give them credit for managing
a twenty minute period one man short. They won that
They're up ten to seven at halftime. I think if
we deal with that red card in the first instance,
I thought it was harsh. Yep, it was a extremely
poorly handled. It took I don't know how long, but
the first half took fifty two minutes. And that was
(03:46):
a big factory when you can just give a yellow
card and decided off the field. I couldn't believe how
long it took. They couldn't show the replay on the
big screen. They went off and did a var football style.
It was a shambles get into that decision. And I
thought it was harsh. It was a forward pass. Tug
(04:08):
Burn had no time to react. There wasn't a lot
of force involved. There's certainly no intents. I understand the
rules around shot shoulder to the head, but I thought
yellow car would would have been sufficient. But you are right,
Islands were largely predictable. They didn't throw a great deal
of surprises at the All Blacks. Wasn't really any special
(04:30):
plays up their sleeve. And yeah, I guess the narrative
around Islands being tired, being old, been on the decline
after going from first to third, and the six Nations
came to the fore, didn't they, Because as you say,
you know, the All Blacks were decidedly poor and Ireland
(04:51):
did not take advantage of that. Jack Crowley missed one
penalties too that would have put Island up by nine points.
Maybe that would have had a bit more scoreboard pressure,
but they just they never really could put their foot
on the throat, and the All Blacks were making so
many eras.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
They stayed in the fight in spite of themselves at
many times that they fold. They couldn't string phases together,
were conceding penalties, weren't building pressure and able to enter
the Irish twenty two often enough until that sixty minute
mark when they basically just took off into the stratosphere
on that red card. I think it signified in many
ways I'm always the one the troubles that Rugby's got.
(05:32):
I mean, that was a fastically long wait to reach
the yellow card threshold decision. Now there was a chick
check call from Ian ten piece to TMO. They couldn't
get it on the big screen at that point. Peerbrew
Sitter is on field referee. He needs to take some
ownership and go, okay, we're gonna get it the big screen.
What's your advice? What's your advice to me? Is it
a yellow card? Bang? Done? Wasted so much time? Get
(05:52):
on with it. Yeah, and they were trying to get
this on the big screen, get that fix in the background.
This is a spectacle, This is entertainment, and for too
many games rugby wastes its time and legallyes that is
not interesting to the spectators who have already made up
their own minds having seen the play, probably at home.
And then you look at the yellow card red card itself.
(06:14):
What are we doing here? There's nothing that Tiger Boone
could do to change his line to effect a lower
tackle on Boden Barrett. It was a four parts from
regard to Barrett. I thought as well, so that should
mitigate what happens after it. And to a man, I've
not seen virtually anyone that suggests that it should be
(06:36):
a red card, and Rugby just got a tell once again,
tangled and knots around trying to avoid lawsuits rather than
actually playing the game that matters on the field at
that point in time.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Yeah, I feel like the Southern hemisphere is much better
at for shading with some form of common sense around
these things. And there is a massive difference between a
rugby incidents and foul play, and this was not really
foul play, as you say it was a split second
reactionary decision. He's basically he barely tackled him. He's just
(07:07):
he's up, Boden runs into him and yeah, there's a
bit of contact with the shoulder, but there's no force involved.
So just have a bit of common sense and put
it in a rugby lens rather than trying to, you know,
appease world rugby. And yeah, the head needs to be protected,
but this is a fast moving contact sports and you
(07:32):
do need to preserve the spectacle and just have a
bit of common stay.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I thought Paid lost control of their game from that
point onwards, and kind of his decision making I thought
was very bizarre at times. In the first half he
was happy to award free kicks at scrum time, and
then the second half he wasn't. He was resetting, reseitting, reseitting,
and the game had aready gone on lengthy at that point,
but he decided basically change his mind at halftime, going
(07:58):
from free kick can go, I'm not reseitting that to resetting. Oh.
I thought it was a pretty poor performance from the referee.
What if the All Blacks do well in that last
twenty minutes to be able to dismantle Island like they
did Limb.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it, but I
think first and foremost impact from the bench, Well, when
you look at it in its entirety, you had lestifying
and knock who come on about the eighteenth sixteenth, eighteenth
minute for Jordy Barrett and make an immediate impression by
beating Gary Ringrose offloading Will Jordan to set up Artist
Severe's try. So I thought he was really good here.
(08:33):
Josh Lord come on in the third minute and play
seventy seven minutes. Can't remember the last time he did that.
The All Blackers line out struggled on their own ball,
but they dismantled Island's lineup, So a big tick I
think for Josh Lord's and then later in the match
Wallace the tt Hue in his dynamic ball carrying to
Mighty Williams overpowering the Irish scrum. I thought Pasilio Tossi
(08:58):
is a big mover in recent times for the All
Blacks and Damian McKenzie providing some real attacking sparks. So
there's been some real concerns around the world where the
All Blacks have finished games. But the bench had a
massive impact, and I think you have to give them
credit for remaining composed and being courageous in the way
(09:19):
they played. They I felt the All Blacks when it
wasn't going well, I was sort of going side to
side and quite lateral. They I think they were a
lot more direct and that ball carrying punch had a
massive impact. It freed up a lot of space, allowed
them to go wide, and they finished really well. It
was really clinical. So there's a number of factors there,
(09:39):
and it's great to see because Blecks have been under
pressure and they have really struggled in those final quarters,
probably for the entirety of Robertson's reign, really you have.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
It's been an ongoing issue and it did It's one game,
but it feels like that was the blueprint for them
going forward. And I suppose immediately out of that, you go,
do we move lestifying a kookle into the starting side?
Do you you know, does watch the TV put pressure
on Peter Luckeye or sign Parker go back into that pack.
For me, I kind of want to see that bench
(10:12):
roll out again and have sixteen to twenty three own
that role. You aren't always going to be able to
roll out those same seven that's right, eight players. But
I kind of think that if you can develop a bench,
which is what Scott Robertson was trying to do last
year and didn't really get to it, then you can
do what we saw from the All Blacks in that
last twenty And that's what the hallmark of that All
(10:34):
Blacks era from twenty eleven to twenty sixteen was is
that they would have a very strong bench and absolutely
demolish you in the last twenty twenty five minutes of games.
And that's what they prided themselves on. We haven't really
seen that over to be honest, and that includes that
the Foster and the latter part of the Hanson era
that didn't really see that. So we hasten to be
too really going fine and look who must start, But
(10:55):
I think he's got to play a role at some
point in the match in the eighty he's got to
be in that team.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, and you'll point up there about the depth, So
the bench comes back to depth. Then that's probably been
whittled away. You know, when Neil Blacks are at their
peak on the hands, they had a phenomenal bench they're
bringing off you know, you think about the twenty fifteen
World Cut, Boden barretton and these sort of guys off
off the bench, So what a luxury to have. And
(11:21):
I guess Scott Robinson is starting to try and build
that four four four depth. It's certainly going to be
tested on this tour with guys like Jordi Barrett and
Scott Barrett already going down. You're already missing to provide
Patrick two plot Tyro Lomax, So it was a big tick.
Your point about, yeah, whether to start or keep wise
(11:44):
on the bench is very pertinent and an interesting one because, yeah,
we've seen the priority put on benches and the impact
in this match that it can have. Fining a nook.
You probably will go and to start at the center
this week, you'd suspect with Quinn switching to second five,
(12:04):
So maybe Rico comes onto the bench and maybe that
mitigates the impact somewhat. I think there's a real question about, well,
a couple of points I'll throw to you, Walla. I'd
probably like to see him start. I'm not sold on
Simon Parker. I thought he was reasonably underwhelming or anonymous
in this game, and I think we have seen that.
(12:26):
I understand the balance that you want from your loose
forward Traier, but I think you have Titi, Lackeye and
Ardi that's pretty dynamic. And the other question McKenzie, I
think him and Boden Barratt combined really well. And so
do you start McKenzie at fullback and have Will Jordan
(12:47):
on the right wing. There these are things that are
in the mix. But then it's back to your question
about does that less than the impact of the bench.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I think you can look at both of those. So
t I think I made the point last week on
the podcast is that he's had a tough year with
injury and it might be better getting thirty minute blocks
out of him, and obviously came on before halftime when
Parker went off with the HIA as well getting a
blockout of him in a game and not having to
suggest he plays eighty minutes for the rest of the
(13:18):
year and get into a super ruggye preseason. So that
may be the better outcome for these three matches. But
I agree around Parker is that you're still waiting for
him to have that breakout test match. He's been solid,
He's very good defensively, makes a lot of impactful tackles.
But there are works of traditionally liked having someone that
could do both sides of the ball from the blindside flank,
and we're probably not seeing that from Parker at the
(13:41):
moment on the back line thing like, I think he
could roll that out in a game. Also, I don't
know they'd be the first choice combination. You could easily
move will Jordan to the right wings. He played the
majority of his Test career there. Mackenzie at full back
and Bowden Barrett at ten. That's the combination I think
they went with in Wellington when they got belted by
South Africa. I'm not saying that was responsible on that night,
(14:03):
but I think you're right, Barrett McKenzie work well together.
But is it a symptom of McKenzie being able to
take on tied defenders in the last stage in the match? Yeah,
Rather than can he do that at minute one? Can
they combine like that from minute one to minute eighty?
Can they better do it in minutes fifty five to
eighty and try and take the game away from the
opposition there. So it's a fascinating question. I think find
(14:26):
a nook who has to be in the match Day
twenty three somewhere and on the right wing, Leroy Carter
probably didn't have who was the first test students who
are a try actually but didn't have a lot of
say in that game. I made the point last night
that I thought the field was too narrow for someone
like Litroy Card. It'd actually get too much ball. So
interesting to see what they do as they lead into
Scotland this week.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, I think they're but limited. I don't expect to
see too many changes. I think they're prioritizing this Grand Slam.
You know, Scott Robertson needs a successful tour to hang
his head on, and a Grand Slam would certainly be that.
And look, Scotland a very competitive team, particularly at home.
(15:09):
They've knocked over England a lot in recent years. At Murrayfield.
They are probably more dynamic in their attacking play than
a lot of the teams up North and Russell are
very inventive, attacking minded first five and that bat Irish.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Sorry.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
The Scotland back line in particular has some threats right
across the park there. I don't think they'll be able
to match the All Blacks up front. I think that's
where the All Blacks will come for them, but I
think we'll see largely sticking to that team, with the
exception of the injuries. What do you make of Quinti
(15:48):
pier Lester defying Anoku midfield combination the Bash brothers.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, I don't mind it. Actually, I don't know that
it'd be a first choice combination, but I'm intrigued to
see how it goes. And we saw it for a
large deal of that game and neither of them look
particularly out of place. Quinte Paie is comfortable at second five,
He's played majority he was rugby there, fighting Anku has
spent the last two or three years at Tulon playing
in that position as well. I think it's worth a
(16:15):
going And you look at who they're probably not going
to match up against for Scotland this week, you got
sort who they're probably coming up against. I'm not sure
who they'll what combination they'll go with the outside. They've
got a number of options there, but that might be
the option. The horses to courses approach at the all
Blacks make for this test matches, they go, this is
(16:36):
the combination we go go with as probably the path
of least disruption you could bring in a Rico Yuani
potentially or Antonine Brown who's adept at twelve or thirteen played.
Billy Proctor started seven Tests this year at center. Yeah,
it didn't take his chance and I don't think you
could argue with the change that they've made there. No,
(16:57):
so instantly we're seeing the impact that to players made
and fighting anuku. So surely for this Test match in particular,
if we just viewed in isolation that you've got to
go with that combination, don't.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, you do. And look, I've been in pre spy
a Leicester. He's only played two Tests in two years
that since coming back from two years in France, and
I think this would be his first start for the
All Blacks at center. He's pretty much played on the wing.
But I've talked to him about this and he's fairly
open about the fact that he's a midfielder now first
(17:30):
and foremost, and I think that's where his strengths lies
all right, with his ball carrying, with his power is offloading.
I think from center there's probably still a question about
his distribution. But on the wing, I think he's a
bit wasted, doesn't see as much ball and would probably
be targeted under the high ball. So yeah, I'm very
intrigued to see him get a crack from the outset,
(17:50):
and I think he could be a really leath way
set because even if he's not busting the line, he
demands attention, so he's going to free up space elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, I think you're exactly only saw that break he
made to set up what ended up in an artist
ove of you try in the right wing corner. It's
soldier field as well. Scott Barrett with a laceration, as
Scott Robinson put it in the postmatch media conference, sounds
pretty nasty. Don't know the full effexes yet. I'm sure
the lot Davis in the next couple of days, but
probably unlikely to play against Scotland, you would think.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, I think so. I mean without seeing it or
being told exactly, you don't know the extent of it,
but you think back to Tyro or Lomax at the
World Cup. I think it took him three weeks at
least to come right. So I did see a lot
of blood on Scott Bratt's leg and it's around the
knee area, which is a bit niggly because that's where
(18:43):
it bends. So he would have had to probably try
and keep that straight as you're blacks jetted.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Out on hopefully business class raises.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Jet has already put it last night from Chicago to
Edinburgh that the all blacks, what do we Sunday morning
in Chicago? They already in Edinburgh. So that will allow
him to have a four weeks preparation. But yeah, big
setback for Scott brat this. I think that's a fourth
chest he's missed this year. So from getting some form
of flow and fluidness into his game, it's it's he's
(19:16):
had a lot of disruptions and Ardie that the captaincy
is becoming quite interchangeable as well.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
It is, yeah, and I suspect will do it against Scotland.
This week we saw Fabi and Holland who's only twenty three,
only twenty three. In October, Josh Lord combined twenty three
years old twenty four year old Josh Lord. Holland had
played nineties matches going into yesterday's game. Lord had played
eight over a four year period and they were forced
(19:43):
to combine them. It wasn't a perfect line out the thing.
They had a few steals, not straight throws et cetera,
et cetera.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
I think the Island's line operated at sixty nine percent
in all Blacks seventy five, So yeah, not a great
day for reason.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Not great, definitely not, but the All Blacks found like
they pinched more and probably those stats reflect that than
Ireland was able to get off them in the end.
And for a while now it's been sort of Josh Lord,
what is he in the All Black squad? Forward hasn't
played a lot of rugby really, including at chiefs level
NPC level through his young career. Well wouldn't level it
(20:19):
a coming of age performance, but there were signs that
you go, okay, I can see why he's been a
part of this All Black squad across a four year
period and what he's potentially able to do. He was
calling the line out, so as soon as he came
on it's a big leadership role for someone like him
who's actually got less test experience. In Fabian Holland, I
thought it was convincing outing from Josh Lord that you go, okay,
(20:42):
we can see what you're doing there.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
It was easily his biggest contribution to the All Blacks.
So I remember, I'm I think starting in Argentina one
test a couple of years ago, and that was his
last real impression in my mind anyway. So yeah, to
come off three minutes and as you say, call the
line out, steal a bit of ball, be prominent around
the park. It was a breakout performance for him and
(21:07):
he'll have to go again next He look like is
pretty bruised up on the side of his face. So
the All Black's locking depth is going to be seriously tested.
It's akin to the half back ranks earlier this year
when they were forced to go five and sixty. You're
probably gonna have a situation where Sam Dowry comes onto
the bench. They've got Summer Penny female who can potentially
(21:28):
cover lock but Asiah Walker, Leah Wed and Arkoy both
didn't go on the All Blacks fifteen tour, so there's
a potential for Josh Berry or a Caleb Delaney to
have to be called in as cover, depending on how
bad Scott Barrett is.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, Jamie Hannah was a Black call up to that
tour as well for the All Blacks fifteen, which we'll
get into in a wee moment or two, so they
might have to get someone. I think They've got the
England a side in Bath, so obviously they're going to
be in the one continent this week and they can
easily call in someone submission to see they pull into camp.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Is it a concern that locking depth.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I don't think so. I think if they're going to
get in a Josh Bury or a Caleb Delaty, I
think they are underprepared for Test Rugby, no doubt about it.
But similar to the halfback death, it's only a moment
in time. I think the lock and depth is very,
very good because when you add in a full strength
to po Vi, Patrick, Toopolo who, Scott, Barrett, Fabi and
holand Josh Lord five very good locks. So I don't
(22:32):
think it's a concern. When you get to six seven,
as the kids say, you're getting into the depth and
you're not often having to go that deep. So I
don't think it's a huge concern for me personally. No.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I think you're right. It could be a concer. You
get one more ding on this tour and you're starting
to dig pretty deep, and we saw that with the
half backs. But yeah, it's good for these guys to
get that exposure and without knowing you would expect to
see Scott Barrett push pretty hard to be available for
that England Test, because it does feel like that's going
(23:05):
to be the one to define this tour now.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Indeed, keep a cross insit here all dot co to
insin for all the updates. We will be onto Edinburgh.
Will take a quick break, come back with the final
four after this on Rugby directs.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Every try, try ten, sixty secondary tackle to tackle tackles,
Get up again.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
A more Rugby direct.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
You're back with Rugby direct By Access Solutions, celebrating twenty
five years in business. Time. Now for the final four
for Rugby topics there myself debate them Liam. The success
of the United States venture over the last week or
so as we built into this test, the test match itself,
the product, the fan fear around it, the event. What
(23:58):
did you make of the Chicago Test?
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yeah, look, I think it is a success. It was
a we want to a function now. The night and
heard the that they sold fifty thousand tickets in one
day for this game and that was across was it
thirty forty odd States?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I thought it was all fifty from memory, I'm be wrong.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Yeah, that's pretty impressive. I'm not sure it was actually
was full yesterday. From my vantage point, it did look
there were like there were a few empty seats. I
heard that there were a number of all the tickets
were sold, but I heard there were a number being scalped,
which is beyond organizers' control. I think from a revenue perspective,
(24:43):
this as apparently the All Blacks biggest gate taking because
it's a sheered gate since the British and Irish Lions tour,
so that's very significant. The coffers will be well stopped.
They got around a number of major sponsors, They won
the match. The spectacle itself, I think left a lot
to be desired prior to that last twenty minutes, very
(25:06):
stop start, very clunky, over officiated, not a great watch,
but the All Blacks probably left a great impression by
the way they finished that game, so I think a
lot of boxes ticked. I think the players really enjoy
coming here. They like America, they like going to the
NBA and the Black Hawks. I think it's a very
valuable experience and by the sounds, the All Black San
(25:28):
Island plan to come here, if not every year. They're
pretty close to it. Not necessarily to Chicago, but I
think they will be back here, but certainly to the
States and the lead up to the twenty thirty one
World Cup.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, the only thing I'd say is it was a
success and there was a lot of Irish jerseys around
yesterday before the game, and a few All Blacks jerseys
as well. It was, as you say, sell out even
if it didn't appear, so it'd be good to see
them go elsewhere. I know, Chicago's got the huge Irish
population and diaspora, and that's why they come here. Soldier
Field itself perhaps a little bit tired. The turf wasn't great.
(26:05):
It's now the smallest NFL stadium I know. We saw
last week. The city's narrowed down or put their hands
up for World Cup games in twenty thirty one. Chicago's done.
So they are in the proceeds of trying to build
a new stadium for the Chicago Beers. It's going to
cost about three billion dollars. I think I read somewhere
last week there's a bit of haggling over who exactly
(26:25):
is going to pay for it, which sounds very familiar
to us. That have followed stadium debacles in New Zealand.
But I almost think they need to move it elsewhere
because I done Chicago. They've done two games, and it
was a bit of talk about a trilogy or rematch
last week, but in Chicago's clearly embraced it, and the
Sports Commission function that we went to. We're very excited
to have them here, but I think they ahead of
(26:47):
twenty thirty one. If this is going to work, they
need to move elsewhere. They were talking about Boston initially
for this game didn't work out because San Francisco could
go to the Narol sort of latched onto Vegas, but
you could go.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
There've been talk about the Pumas and Miami.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Miami, New York. Potentially there are other places you can go.
I mean, New York's got an Irish population as well,
if you want to do that. All Blacks Island thing
over again, and maybe you know the Fourth Test and
that Rugby's greatest rivalry could end up here next year.
As yet, you just don't know, so I would encourage
them to move. I mean, I've loved the time in Chicago,
but you can't just concentrate in Chicago. If you're going
(27:24):
to make this work.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, you're right, And I guess it works from an
all Black perspective because they have a lot of major
sponsors based here, right, So that's probably another driver for them.
But the goal for rugby is I think people will
tell you that if you can get one percent of
the American market that you have cracked it. Yeah, and
so you're right. This is one city, one state, And
(27:51):
if you're actually going to make a real impression, which
I think any sport outside the American traditional sports is
incredibly hard to do, then you do need to shift around.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Spread the gospel. Topic Number two the All Blacks fifteen
playing the Barbarians, which was very very much a sort
of South African sort of side plus bred Weather. I
know you saw a fear bit of this game. I
didn't see as much. What did you make of the
All Blacks fifteen performance?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, you're right. The Babba stack with Sapha's they scored
some rolling more tries are up nineteen Neil early and
I thought, oh shit, this is not going well.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
But the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Fifteen, I think they scored thirty three unanswered points. So
came back into that match really well. A good start
to their three match tour. I was really impressed by
Caleb Tongueytao Highlands' aucornd flyer on the on the wing.
He was perhaps a wee bit fortunate with his first try,
just had his fingers on the ball. Looked like he
(28:47):
pretty much dropped it to dive over the line. Sun
as many many coaches have said over the years, but
his pace as a Leith said, I think he's deserving
of a place in this All Black team. Now there's
an argument he's better off playing these All Blacks fifteen
games getting exposure.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I was.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
I think that the loose forwards played well Dalton Papa,
Lee Year and and others, and the halfbacks Xavier Row
and Kyle Preston. So yeah, really it's a good start
to that tour and interesting to see how they build
and rotates and whether you know, maybe a Reuben Love
goes back and plays for that team in the coming
(29:27):
weeks and others. Do you know, guys like Sevie Reese
and Luke Jacobson, Anton Lenna Brown they could do some
game time as well.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
They could do This might be the week to do so,
potentially potentially for them if I think ten. None knows
the tour I got out of the match.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah he was good as well. Yeah, he's a very
silky player, you know, great kicking game as well as finishing.
So I think Nick Evans and the commentary awarded him
Man of the match. So nice to hear a Kiwi voice.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah. Well, the All Blacks looking for a tech coach,
so maybe it was checking them out to see whether
he is interested in that topic. Number two Tom on
three Nather in the Final four England Australia. Well we'll
talk about it for some of the other matches as well,
but that was the probably the headline match outside all
that island. From our perspective, England very very good. I
(30:15):
thought twenty five points to seven. They stuck a stake
through the heart of Australia. The Wallabies where I thought abysmal.
Funnily enough, I only saw the first forty. You saw
the second forty, so we'll combined now for some thoughts.
But I didn't think Australia offered much on attack. Their
one try came from a Harry Potter ninety five meter
(30:35):
intercept and it was only what ten to seven a
half time, But you felt England we're going to open
this game up in the second spell, and they did
in the latter part of the game. But I thought
I've seen some mixed responses to the England performance, but
I thought they were pretty good.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yeah, I don't know if I was overly impressed by England.
They had I've gone back to George Ford at ten.
Alex Mitchell kicked. I think England kick among the most
teams in world rugby, something like one thousand meters per game.
They scored one try off for Alex Mitchell box kick.
But you're right, Australia were really underwhelming. Missing I think
three players they couldn't get access to for their English
(31:12):
clubs for this match, and it just starts starting to
feel like the Wallabies are hitting the wall a bit.
They've had the British and Irish lines tour, they've been
out to South Africa, they've played the All Blacks twice
and yeah, this was a pretty underwhelming performance. A good
one for England, but I don't think it was a
great one. They don't They're always hard to beat at Twickenham,
(31:34):
but I don't think the way they're playing, it's pretty conservative,
would strike fear through other teams, But when you compare
them to Ireland to start that Northern tour on that
sort of note, it's a notable victory.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Well is there four losses in a rona for the Wallabies.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Back to back to the All Blacks and Argentina. Yeah, yeah,
I think they've won five of eleven this year. So
for all the improvements that Joe Schmidt has made and
how competitive they were early in the year, it's still
a big task, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
It certainly is Scotland warming up for the All Blacks
with an eighty five nilwyn over the USA. Is that
good preparation? Hard to know? It's a game. I guess
they didn't have their entire first choice team out on
the park, the USA going backwards that are raided knots,
which is an overly encouraging head of twenty thirty one.
(32:30):
And South Africa beating Japan and Wembley. Pretty performance from Japan.
Sorry South Africa, but poor crowd weird this isdn't have
it at Wimbley when there's All Backs fifteen going on
across town. But more importantly England Australia at twicken them
three rugby matches on in one day you could have
had one of those on the Sunday, might have cleared
(32:50):
a bit of the schedule up and people could have
gone to both. Twenty three thousand I think was a crowd.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, and it looks a lot worse, doesn't it in
a massive venue like Wembley. I think that also probably
speaks to if you compare the spring Box and All
Blacks brand right like the Boxer back to World Cup
winners and there's a massive expat South African population lon
we've seen that, we've experienced it being there for the
(33:16):
spring Box and All Blacks, but they clearly don't have
the same lure.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
No. I think it's also the match as well that
we were ten years removed from the Brighton Miracle. Japan
Art the team they once were no fair and it's
kind of like here. You know, a lot of people said,
all you know, the All Blacks wouldn't sell out if
it wasn't Ireland, But Ireland wouldn't sell out if it
wasn't for the All Blacks. So you know, each team contributes,
I think to the game and the spectacle that's there
and the willingness of people to buy tickets. But felt
(33:43):
like a bit of chasing the coin there that probably
wasn't justified from the South African perspective.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, I think the Box now gone to play France
and then yep, that'll be a blockbuster. Very intrigued to
see who wins it and also how many of those
players it came out to New Zealand feature for that
French team.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, Will sure there'd be a few of them. The
guns coming back into the Mixan final four fourth topic
CEO chat for the All Black that's from New Zealand Rugby.
So machinations going on in the background of course, Mike
Robinson you'd leave soon ish from his role. What are
you hearing, Limb you've reported on this in the last
few days.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
There's a few developments there. All Lett that Matt Robinson
resigned four months ago and Sneeze On Rugby just held
interviews last week. They've appointed an interim CEO, Steve Lancaster,
the Community Rugby manager, because it sounds like Matt Robinson
finishes up in December and whoever they get is going
to have to serve a notice period, so they're not
(34:42):
going to have someone a replacement in place before probably
April next year. So Lancaster will sits in when Robertson finishes.
I'm hearing David White, the former New Zealand Cricket CEO
who has interviewed for the role, but the favorite it
sounds like is the CEO of Six Nations, Tom Harrison.
(35:04):
He also previously led the English and Welsh Cricket Board,
so he has experienced leading elite level rugby. His experience
in private equity and big business deals which I think
as a major factor that New Zealand Rugby want a
(35:25):
box for them to tick. But I'll ask you, from
a cultural rugby perspective, how much of a shift would
it be to have I guess a brit come and
lead New Zealand rugby, Particularly with the landscape of New
Zealand rugby and the dynamic of managing the the twenty
six provincial unions and how much.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Power they have, it would be tricky. You're not coming
in with a lot of institutional knowledge around how the
game works. You might have a broad idea of the
New Zealand structure, but in some ways that might be
a benefit to him that he can oversee things without
the inherent knowledge of the pus and the super rugby structure.
And the grassroots level and the women's game and everything that,
(36:08):
and can look at it from a clean canvas, it
can come as a bit of an outsider and maybe
that's what New Zealand rugby needs, is an outsider to
get the house right and get everything right. I wouldn't
be against the appointment necessarily to be a lot for
him to learn. But he comes to the rugby background
with England Cricket Board or the English and Wales Cricket
Board as their CEO for a few years as well,
(36:30):
so I think it'll be a big challenge getting used
to the New Zealand game, but I wouldn't be against
it necessarily either. I almost think that outsider would be
perhaps more preferential to someone like David White, who's held
a number of roles in New Zealand New Zealand cricket.
He was there for I think about a decade. In
the end, he's got the knowledge of how New Zealand
rugby works. I think he's at the Blues and the
(36:50):
Hurricanes of Wellington and Auckland potentially no doubting his credentials,
but I almost think that there would be a tired
appointment compared to someone like the Six Nation CEO. Someone
outsider can look at things a little bit differently, so
be intering see what happens there. It's think Lancaster has
got to be the interim CEEO.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
That's right, Yeah, certainly for at least three months. From
what I understand is a few nerves around, you know,
someone like Tom Harrison coming in and whether that would
pave the way for the Ragby Championship to move to
align with the Six Nations and those sorts of things.
So there's a lot of balls in the air, and
(37:32):
you know, as with any of these appointments, a lot
of speculation behind the scenes about what it might mean
for various people. So interesting to see where it goes.
News on Rugby's adamant they're going to make an appointment
pre Christmas, but whoever it is, it won't be in
place before April, so Lancaster will hold the fort. But yeah,
(37:52):
interesting to see what comes out in the next couple
of months.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Watch the space that'll do us for Ragby Direct from Chicago.
Look forward to catching up a bit later on in
the week from Edinburgh. Le made to thank you, as
always thanks to carry Shaw for producing that has been
Rapied reck Haired by Excess Solutions celebrating twenty five years
in business.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
For more from News Talks, ed B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
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