As the budget dust settles and the public's attention is drawn to serious allegations against Te Pāti Māori, Acting Prime Minister David Seymour and Labour's Police spokesperson Ginny Anderson joined Nick to talk through the political issues of the week.
On the agenda were the allegations against Te Pāti Māori, reaction to the budget, and whether or not we need to tighten our alcohol laws in New Zealand.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks at b focusing in on the issues
that matter Politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings News Talk said.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Bilatzishine, can you make a right decision for all of us?
For all of us, Pilah join us for politics Thursday
this week as Regulations Minister and Acting Prime Minister for
(00:40):
the week. David Seymour, Good morning, David.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Good morning man.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I'm very well? Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
How's been Prime Minister?
Speaker 4 (00:52):
You know, it's a lot like being a normal person
as it turns out, and as far as my job goes,
we're just trying to stop a bit of government waste,
leash a bit of red take and make education a
bit better for the people that go there.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Do you have extra security? You have a whole lot
of extra stuf to get two limo drivers instead of one.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, I don't normally take the Crown limos, but I
did have some DPS people following me around yesterday, but
I was mainly visiting an early childhood care center and
speaking to a group of early childhood teachers and leaders,
so I didn't come under any great danger.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I thought you did very well reading that book. I
thought you did very well. You are born actor. You've
opened the pages. You communicated beautifully with those young kids.
I thought you did a really good job. I think
you got another job at career as a teacher.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well you never know. I mean, I don't know what
age Susie Cato was when she started her career in
children's television. But if I'm not past it already, then
who knows.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, you did well. Labor Police spokesperson Ginny Anderson, Good morning, Ginny.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Good morning, Mack.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
How are you.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm great. Did you see David with the kids. He
was so good with the kids.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
It was really impressed. That's really impresed. I thought he
did incredibly well, and I thought his face was particularly animated,
and you could see that the children were just loving
every minute.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
You're right, you're so positive, Jinny. I thought you'd say, oh,
it was all put on and it was all rehearsed.
But it was so natural, wasn't it.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
I think he's a natural born early childhood educator and
he should really consider how he could do that further.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
You know, so often we see politicians do that. They
looked so bloody awkward, and so awful and why do
they go to school kids? Why did they do it?
And he just took it out. Anyway, let's get let's
get serious, and not that that wasn't serious, it was amazing.
Let's start with his allegations against the party, Marrio. It's
been alleged by former staff that the staff at the
Manu where bry whose CEO was a local Maori Party candidate,
(02:52):
photo coffied census forms and the information found its way
to the Maori Party. It's also been alleged that the
way Pereira Trust, where the party president John Timmer here
as CEO, used personal information from COVID vaccine program to
contact potential voters. The party firmly denies all of the
(03:13):
allegations and there's now four separate investigations underway, including one
by the police. David, this is pretty serious allegations and
I think you know that we need a wide ranging investigation.
Here will the government call for one?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Well, first of all, there are very serious allegations relating
to the use of the census and the extraordinary powers
that that grants people at census time, the Electoral Act
and the use of data and electoral advertisements and also
potentially the use of public money contracted to the white
of OAT the Trust. I think one thing that's really
(03:51):
important to recognize here is that if we're concerned that
people aren't following the rules and doing things above board,
the right response is for us to absolutely do things
correctly and buy the book. So right now you've got
an investigation by the Chief Statistician for the misuse of
census data, you've had a referral to the police, and
(04:15):
you've got the Electoral Commission I understand also being notified
there's some question of whether there might also be a
matter for the Privacy Commissioner. In my view, each of
those people should be given the support and the time
to do their job according to the law, because that's
what we really stand for here. If there are further
(04:38):
issues arising, then it might be right for a minister
to call a ministerial inquiry, but that's not being discussed yet.
There's also the possibility that a Parliamentary select committee could
undertake an inquiry, but I'm not aware that any select
committee is currently considering that those options are there. But
(04:59):
I think what's important is that when we deal with
very serious allegations of impropriety that we take the steps
in responding to them.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Jinny, how concern is Labor here the party made a
complaint to the Electoral Commission about the tech scent to
voters with their info allegedly taken from the COVID vaccing
role out Where do you think the buck stops here?
Speaker 5 (05:21):
It's important that the Chief Statistician establishes where the information
that was provided for the purpose of census was used
for any other purpose. And that is incredibly important because
we want people to feel safe and secure about providing
their own personal information in order to get good quality
(05:41):
data for statistics. That's really critical to know where people are,
who they are, and all of that vital information to
make big decisions. So if it's an important role for
the Chief Statistician to take a look and make sure
that that information was used appropriately, David.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Who actually has to call for an investigation here? The
orders a General or the Serious Forward.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Office, Well, either of those could actually undertake an investigation
in their own right, So it's really up to them
to respond to any complaints they may receive from members
of the public potentially other politicians affected. I mean it
was a Labor MP who lost the seats of Tomaki
(06:26):
Makodo by as I understand it, only forty two votes,
the closest result in the entire election last year. So
you know, in terms of whose job it is to
call for it, those people you named are more people
that would be called on to investigate and certainly have
the powers to do.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So, who's going to take the action against this whole system?
And with Penny Henneray, sorry sorry.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
David, I'll let jommy answer. That's a juny.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
So we really need to see the outcomes of those inquiries.
So we need to establish if there has been a
miss use of private information, and we can't really determine
what's the next step until that is made clear. The
fact that it's also been referred to police, that will
be important to see if there's any potential law that's
been broken in that space. And so the right people
(07:22):
have it in their courts and the next step is
really waiting to see the outcome of those different inquiries.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
This question goes to both of you, but I'll start
with you, David. The police are the people that ultimately
investigate and bring charges here. But do we need an
anti corruption authority like other countries. There is it time
that we actually said we're real now we need to
have something like that.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Well, I think before you look to establish even more
departments and entities, I mean you think about the number
we already listed in this conversation, the AG, the SFO,
the police, the Electoral Commission, the Privacy Commission, of the
Chief Statistician. If we believe that that vast swath of
(08:05):
departments and commissions and entities and so on aren't doing
their job, then potentially, but anyone that wants to establish
a new commission, I think it needs to explain what
exactly it is that it is not being done by
the people we already have.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
That Isn't that clearly the problem. We've got too many
people looking at too many things, instead of one group saying, hey,
we're in charge of anti corruption. We're going to clean
it all up and sort it out. Ginny. Wouldn't that
be a simple way.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
It's important to go back and see what's happened here.
So this is new information that's come to light as
a result of someone who's put their hand up and
volunteered that. So you have a whistleblower who has information
has come forward with that and so extepses to understand
whether that evidence stacks up or not. So I think
our systems are working well, there's been information come to light.
(08:55):
That's what the Chief Statistician, the police are also taking
a look. I think there's enough on place here to
make sure that we can check that what should have
happened is done and if it's not, then we are
need steptual consequences as a result of them.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
My question still hasn't really been there you go.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
There, Well, look, I think I think it has, But
can I just make a wider plot that part of
Maori clearly has a different view of the way that
New Zealand should run at quite a deep level, even
to the point of thinking that there should be another parliament.
If they have these beliefs, I think it's up to
(09:32):
them to persuade the rest of New Zealand that that
is the way things should be, not to breach all
of the usual conventions and rules that people sign up to.
You know, recently we've seen them making videos calling for revolution,
putting out social media posts with antique guns on them
(09:54):
calling for people to rise up. We've had Tavatu Marii
MPs taking videos of other MPs through windows, describing inaccurately,
unnecessarily and sively our government as a quote unquote White's government,
which is clearly untrue and really stupord. I think ultimately
(10:15):
the question they need to answer is, if their ideas
about the future of our country are so good, why
can't they persuade people in a civilized way that appeals
to people's sense of reason and logic. And if their
ideas aren't that good, is it really worth doing so
much damage to the institutions of our society that by
and large have actually been pretty successful.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Ginny, I want to start with you on this. It's
been a week since the government revealed its first budget
with tax cuts, boost for health and education, but also
broken promises from national on more cancer drugs. What does
this actually mean for real New Zealanders this budget?
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Well, I think it's just starting to think and now
some of the damage that the budget has done, And
you're right that the sense is that this government has
just made the wrong choices. We've seen nearly three billion
dollars go to land lords and ten billion on income
tax relief, but they didn't keep a promise those vital
(11:13):
tense medicines that they promised to people who voted for
them because they believed it would be funded, and now
they've found out that that's not the case. And I
think it's just devastating because so many people know someone
personally within their own family or even themselves, who have
been affected by cancer.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
David, how really important while the tax Council was it
just a promise that you had to fulfill.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I think it's hugely important for the simple fact that
people are really hurting financially up and down New Zealand. Yes,
the government has major challenges balancing its budget, providing the
services that people require, and reducing the debt that has
grown up over the past five years, but it's also
true that families, people in small business, people running farms
(12:05):
are all under a lot of pressure, and reducing taxes
means that we are letting them keep some more of
their own money and actually transferring resources away from the
public sector into people's private bank accounts, which is sorely needed.
A lot of people say, look, you know, twenty bucks
a week. Some people on high salaries will scoff at that,
(12:28):
but for me, it's actually the difference between gradually going
further and further into overdraft or keeping ahead of my bills.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Jinny, really do you think twenty dollars is going to
save us right now?
Speaker 5 (12:41):
It's not even that for some families because when they
pay for their bus, for their cad or that the
lunch school lunch isn't adequate anymore. The rates for going
up on your car, for your warrant, and your Red
Joe debt's going up. All those things are going up
for people, and that the amount given back in a
tax cut is simply not going to cut it. But
(13:03):
I don't know if you saw Nick, the interview between
Jack Chayne in Nikola Willis, but what really came out
in that interview was that this government is actually spending
more than the previous labor government, and in addition to that,
they are borrowing to pay for tax cuts, which is
just going to drive our economy further into the ground.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
David, would you like to respond? I did see the interview,
and I thought Nichola Willis was very good, by the way,
But David, would you like to respond to the fact
that you have been told that you're borrowing more.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Well, first of all, let's just look at the amount
of savings that were found reducing spending across the board,
and the amount that we're cutting taxes by we're actually
making more savings than we are cutting taxes, So the
tax cut package and the spending package actually balanced. In fact,
they're slightly positive in terms of our ability to repay debt.
(14:02):
And I think the other thing that Jimmy is absolutely
right to empathize with people who are facing a lot
of cost pressures. I certainly do. I hear about it
every day and my heart goes out to people who
are saying, look, I've been doing the right thing, but
over the last five years, stuff's got harder and harder
and harder. And one area where that shows up is
(14:22):
the number of people experiencing mental distress according to the
Health New Zealand. So people are on edge, there's no
question about that. But I think where Ginny needs to
be a little bit I guess more reflective, is that
what we inherited was completely unsustainable. The government was running
(14:42):
deficits well into the future. The public services, the quality
that people are receiving, and everything from health to education
to keeping the streets safe was in decline. If we
carried on with the track that they had set for us,
we would have actually really been going towards a disaster.
And where that ends is that at some point the
(15:05):
ratings agencies, the Moodies and the standards and paws out
of New York starts saying, look, we don't know that
New Zealand is such a good credit risk, and that
pushes up interest rates for everybody, including everyone with a mortgage,
everyone with a small business with loans because suddenly the
rest of the world's not so sure we want to
loan to New Zealand, and if we do, we'll demand
(15:27):
higher interest rates to do it. So Yep, totally get
what Jenny's saying, But let's just zoom out and have
a look at the wider context and what this government
is trying to wrestle back into some sort of reasonable
economic and fiscal circumstances.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Can either of you tell me what this budget did
for small business in New Zealand, because that's how our
country has been built. Jenny, Well, I just don't.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Make a point that only a couple of days ago
it's come out that New Zealand's likely to get a
lower credit rating from one of the main organizations, Fitch,
and that steps in the Herald Thomas Coglom wrote that article,
and that's a direct result of the increased borrowing and
the inflationary tax cuts that out of this budget. So
(16:16):
right throughout COVID, we maintained a high credit rating on
all those major organizations, and it's looking like for the
first time New Zealand will get a lower credit rating
as a result of this budget, and that will meet
It costs more to borrow, so for borrowing for those
tax cuts, we're paying more and more. And to get
(16:38):
to your question, there's nothing in this budget for small businesses.
Those one operator outfits that pay a huge amount now,
and increased insurance, increased instances of retail crime, all of
those things are a major overhead for small businesses that
are struggling, and there was very little to address those
(17:00):
people that are really struggling to make a living.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Because David, when you need money, you need your business
to do well. Right, so you as a government need
small business to do well so they can generate more
money to pay more taxes.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Surely, well, that's absolutely true. But if you come back
to the question around small business, I mean, first of all,
retail crime is a major issue, but it's not like
it's just popped up in the last few months. In fact,
actually the measures that this government has taken tougher sentencing,
more prison capacity, youth areous offender facilities and programs, toughening
(17:39):
up the sentencing laws, getting rids of the Section twenty
seven cultural reports that were basically sob story for convicted offenders.
I mean, we are cleaning up a big mess in
terms of lawlessness that I agree is a major challenge
for retail crime, but something that we've inherited and are
(18:00):
getting back on top of. In terms of what the
budget does more generally for small business. You know what
people need as customers coming through the door with money
in their pockets, and this budget is all about getting
on top of inflation. It's all about letting people keep
a bit more of their own money so they're a
bit more buoyant in their own bank accounts. And it's
(18:21):
also increasingly about getting rid of the red tape and
the regulation that has made it harder to be in business,
such as what you've seen from Brooklyn Walden in the
last twenty four hours with respect to the holiday pay
and leave arrangements, which are so impossibly complex. They managed
to leave employers and employees none of the wise or
(18:43):
worse off than wasting a lot of their time with uncertainty.
It's taken shorts in the budget for small business.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Figures out this week show that alcohol related harm cost
the country are about seven point eight billion dollars every year.
Police Commissioner Andrew Coster has suggested we could reduce harm
by raising the price of alcohol and cracking down on
suburban liquor stores in ours alcohol is sold Ginny. Does
this make sense? Do we actually need to crack down
(19:10):
on alcohol sales?
Speaker 5 (19:11):
In JW Zealand actually passed legislation towards the end of
twenty twenty three that gave local communities more power to
have a say about who was selling alcohol in the area.
That the legislation wasn't working, so the local Alcohol policy
or LAP that was able to be challenged in the courts,
and some of those big players were able to discontinually
(19:34):
take it to the court, so they weren't able to
be enforced by local communities. So we changed that legislation
to give local people more power over what was being
sold in terms of alcohol in the area. But that
was legislation that both act in National voted against David.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Do we actually really need to look at the sale
of liquorict? I mean, when was it first drawn up?
I think nineteen sixty three. It's been revised a few times.
Is it now a perfect time to actually look at
it and say, hey, let's try and sort it out.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Well, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Acts was passed
in twenty twelve, so it's a bit more recent than that.
While we're talking about history, I think we've got to
be a bit more realistic about this. First of all,
the wowses will always be with us. I mean, one
of the reasons that New Zealand was the first country
on Earth where every single adult can vote was actually
(20:29):
a alliance between the prohibitionists and the feminists and Kate
Shepherd was part of the women's Christian Temperance movement. So
this is a long running part of New Zealand politics.
Second of all, if you take the slightly more recent
trend of the last forty years, you go back to
about nineteen eighty you had a New Zealand where you
(20:53):
couldn't buy alcohol and supermarkets, you couldn't advertise it on
any broadcast media.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
It was very.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Difficult to get and yet we had the worst drinking
statistics of almost anywhere in the world. The amount that
people were drinking was massively higher than now. The amount
of alcohol consumed per person has plummeted over the last
forty years. The amount of binge drinking was greater. I
suspect the amount of domestic abuse was greater, although it
(21:21):
wasn't taken as seriously on those times, And the amount
of people running driving around killing themselves and others drunk
driving was greater. So David forty years.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
David, do you think the system doesn't need to be
looked at? Do you think that it's fine that the
police can do whatever they can, close down what they want,
open up what they want, they can decide. I mean,
do you think the system's right?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Well, broadly yes, And I'm just making the point, and
I think it's worth doing of putting things in a
little bit of context. Here. We have a drinking culture
that is becoming more sophisticated, that is becoming more civilized
and creating less harm over time. So yes, the wowsers
will always be with us and inherent part of New
(22:07):
Zealand politics. It's at least the eighteen nineties. However, every
few years there's an enormous panic and the truth is
that people will always drink, there will always be a
set of rules around them, and by and large, if
you actually look at the data and the evidence over
the right time style, things are actually getting better in
(22:28):
New Zealand, and we should consider that before we take
away people's convenience and their freedom to act responsibly on
their own terms, Before we make it harder for small
business owns to actually do business in this country, before
we crunch down on some really important industries around brewing
and winemaking in this country. We've actually got to have
(22:49):
a bit of balance in the discussion.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Any your thoughts, it's about harmonimization. So we want to
if people want to enjoy a drink responsibly and do that,
that's great. But at that end where it's two am,
all of police call outs are our correlated around court
in place at that time, there's higher levels of violence,
these higher levels of disorder, and these higher levels of
(23:12):
family violence. Those rates are growing and growing. In the
vast majority of family violence related incidents do involve either
drugs or alcohol, and more predominantly alcohol, So there is
a huge amount of damage that alcohol still does to
our community, and I think we can always look for
opportunities in new ways of minimizing that harm and stopping
(23:35):
harmful drinking and people having excess quantities also when they
are already intoxicated.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Jinny, do you think the answer is just to close
the places down, because that's what the police seemed to
be thinking. Do you think it's as simple as that,
just close it all down, like let's go, let's go
twelve the lapses four o'clock. But police want them to
close it too. Should they be making that decision.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
It's always a balance for those communities to decide. In
some of those areas are calling out for that because
they see the harm that the change in their dislike
enables communities to have more of a say about who's
selling alcohol on their local corner, and those communities who
see that harm are using that to try and stop
more outlet opening up.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
There was hundreds of young people that took to the
streets and live in over the weekend doing burnouts, on
doing drag racing, but only two people were arrested and
only six cars were seeds, which under the current law
actually have to be given back David, I want to
start with you with this. I think this was a
golden opportunity for the Police Minister, the Police Commissioner and
(24:41):
the new government and police to show that who's in charge.
They knew this was going to happen, they knew what
was going to go on, and again we saw nothing happen.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Well, I think it's a little unfair to say that
nothing happened. What you have is a situation where the
police have been present, the numbers of people that they
were forced to contend with was very large, particularly for
a remote area where no matter who's in power or
what their policy is, there's not going to be a
large number of police. But are now following up with
(25:16):
the people involved, and I think you will see a
tougher response than you might have under the zeitgeist of
the previous government, where we were sort of supposed to
try being nice to crime and criminals in the hope
that they'd start being nice back.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
To be fair, Jenny, we saw nothing different. We saw
a golden opportunity to show who was in charge, and
nothing happened.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Take a lot more than tough talk to resolve the
current crime problem that New Zealand faces. But unfortunately that's
the only thing that Mark Mitchel has in his bag
of tricks. It was crystal clear in the budget that
this government has no intention of properly resourcing the police service,
and we will continue to see instances, particularly in rural
New Zealand, where there are fewer police officers, more instances
(26:05):
of crime and the resourcing simply isn't available for police
to be able to do their job properly.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
David, There's been a lot of talk about making it
tougher on those public people getting on our public roads
and doing burnouts or going to tongue eas or gangs.
There's lots and lots of talk, but it doesn't feel
like anything's changed changed or changing.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Well, it's certainly true that there's a process, and I
know we will hate to hear that, but it is
the case that you've got to change policies, you've got
to change laws, bring down a budget, fund new activities,
stop doing things that were ineffective. All of that is
changing so that fundamentally you're more likely to run into
a police officer. If you do, you're more likely to
(26:54):
be arrested and charged, and if you're convicted then there'll
be more capacity to imprison you, and a tougher Sentencing
Act and fewer cultural reports, in fact, no taxpayer funding
cultural reports to make sure that you are locked up.
So right across the board, from policing to sentencing, two corrections,
the government is making changes that will have an effect
(27:17):
on the behavior of people who want to break the
law in our communities.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
How long do we have to wait? How long do
you think we're going to have to wait before we can?
You know, I heard here they do per se all
and say the other day she doesn't walk down the road,
now she takes a car. I mean, how long is
it going to take before we are going to see
the difference?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Well, I don't think there's going to be any one moment.
If you are looking for on the twenty seventh of
X month, then something will change, you know, we will see.
What you will see is a change in attitudes that
is continuous. You might use an old Rugby analogy of
a role in more where each month we see more
(27:57):
police with more powers, with more places to send criminals,
putting them before judges that have a clearer sense of
what's required from the Sentencing Act, and over time there'll
be a rebalancing from the idea that the justice system
is there for the criminals to the idea that the
justice system is there for the victims. Those are the
people who have been largely neglected over the last five years.
(28:21):
And you've got to remember, I'd just like to come
in and the goal was to reduce the prison population.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
JE then if we could look at if we could
just take a look, for example, about how this government
has made the wrong choices. And you can see the
police budget that just come out. Police had to found
fifty five million in saving so they cut that out
of it. That's nearly two hundred people working to support
police get back out on the street quickly. Those jobs
(28:49):
are cut now, so we have fewer people assisting police
to do their job. And police got a one off
funding of one hundred and twenty million just to keep
the lights on literally to pay for electricity rates insurance.
One hundred and twenty million one off payment that will
run out the end of the next financial year and
police need to find another.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
The question people need to ask themselves is why was
that necessary?
Speaker 5 (29:15):
After we about the types of services that they're going
to receive. People aren't going to receive the same level
of service from our police if they're being funded less.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
David, I have to go because you guys have got
to go. But if you want to reply very quickly,
I'll take it.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Well, you've got five hundred more police committed. To say
that we're going to have fewer police because we're making
back off of savings is frankly disingenuous and it rests
on the Great Labor assumption that the only way to
solve a problem is to throw more money at it. Actually,
because they threw so much money at so many problems
and failed, now we don't have that option anymore because
(29:55):
we've run out of other people's money. Now this government
is committed to getting results through greater efficiency and it's
exactly what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Thank you both for joining us. I know you've both
got to take off, but thank you for joining us
this morning. It's been nice to have you both on
the show. Prime Minister for the week David Seymour and
please spokes person for Labor, Ginny Anderson, appreciate you both
have a great rest of the week and get ready
for next week when we're all back at work.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks at b focusing in on the issues
that matter Politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings News Talk said.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Bilatzishine, can you make a right decision for all of us?
For all of us, Pilah join us for politics Thursday
this week as Regulations Minister and Acting Prime Minister for
(00:40):
the week. David Seymour, Good morning, David.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Good morning man.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I'm very well? Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
How's been Prime Minister?
Speaker 4 (00:52):
You know, it's a lot like being a normal person
as it turns out, and as far as my job goes,
we're just trying to stop a bit of government waste,
leash a bit of red take and make education a
bit better for the people that go there.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Do you have extra security? You have a whole lot
of extra stuf to get two limo drivers instead of one.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, I don't normally take the Crown limos, but I
did have some DPS people following me around yesterday, but
I was mainly visiting an early childhood care center and
speaking to a group of early childhood teachers and leaders,
so I didn't come under any great danger.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I thought you did very well reading that book. I
thought you did very well. You are born actor. You've
opened the pages. You communicated beautifully with those young kids.
I thought you did a really good job. I think
you got another job at career as a teacher.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well you never know. I mean, I don't know what
age Susie Cato was when she started her career in
children's television. But if I'm not past it already, then
who knows.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, you did well. Labor Police spokesperson Ginny Anderson, Good morning, Ginny.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Good morning, Mack.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
How are you.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm great. Did you see David with the kids. He
was so good with the kids.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
It was really impressed. That's really impresed. I thought he
did incredibly well, and I thought his face was particularly animated,
and you could see that the children were just loving
every minute.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
You're right, you're so positive, Jinny. I thought you'd say, oh,
it was all put on and it was all rehearsed.
But it was so natural, wasn't it.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
I think he's a natural born early childhood educator and
he should really consider how he could do that further.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
You know, so often we see politicians do that. They
looked so bloody awkward, and so awful and why do
they go to school kids? Why did they do it?
And he just took it out. Anyway, let's get let's
get serious, and not that that wasn't serious, it was amazing.
Let's start with his allegations against the party, Marrio. It's
been alleged by former staff that the staff at the
Manu where bry whose CEO was a local Maori Party candidate,
(02:52):
photo coffied census forms and the information found its way
to the Maori Party. It's also been alleged that the
way Pereira Trust, where the party president John Timmer here
as CEO, used personal information from COVID vaccine program to
contact potential voters. The party firmly denies all of the
(03:13):
allegations and there's now four separate investigations underway, including one
by the police. David, this is pretty serious allegations and
I think you know that we need a wide ranging investigation.
Here will the government call for one?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Well, first of all, there are very serious allegations relating
to the use of the census and the extraordinary powers
that that grants people at census time, the Electoral Act
and the use of data and electoral advertisements and also
potentially the use of public money contracted to the white
of OAT the Trust. I think one thing that's really
(03:51):
important to recognize here is that if we're concerned that
people aren't following the rules and doing things above board,
the right response is for us to absolutely do things
correctly and buy the book. So right now you've got
an investigation by the Chief Statistician for the misuse of
census data, you've had a referral to the police, and
(04:15):
you've got the Electoral Commission I understand also being notified
there's some question of whether there might also be a
matter for the Privacy Commissioner. In my view, each of
those people should be given the support and the time
to do their job according to the law, because that's
what we really stand for here. If there are further
(04:38):
issues arising, then it might be right for a minister
to call a ministerial inquiry, but that's not being discussed yet.
There's also the possibility that a Parliamentary select committee could
undertake an inquiry, but I'm not aware that any select
committee is currently considering that those options are there. But
(04:59):
I think what's important is that when we deal with
very serious allegations of impropriety that we take the steps
in responding to them.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Jinny, how concern is Labor here the party made a
complaint to the Electoral Commission about the tech scent to
voters with their info allegedly taken from the COVID vaccing
role out Where do you think the buck stops here?
Speaker 5 (05:21):
It's important that the Chief Statistician establishes where the information
that was provided for the purpose of census was used
for any other purpose. And that is incredibly important because
we want people to feel safe and secure about providing
their own personal information in order to get good quality
(05:41):
data for statistics. That's really critical to know where people are,
who they are, and all of that vital information to
make big decisions. So if it's an important role for
the Chief Statistician to take a look and make sure
that that information was used appropriately, David.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Who actually has to call for an investigation here? The
orders a General or the Serious Forward.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Office, Well, either of those could actually undertake an investigation
in their own right, So it's really up to them
to respond to any complaints they may receive from members
of the public potentially other politicians affected. I mean it
was a Labor MP who lost the seats of Tomaki
(06:26):
Makodo by as I understand it, only forty two votes,
the closest result in the entire election last year. So
you know, in terms of whose job it is to
call for it, those people you named are more people
that would be called on to investigate and certainly have
the powers to do.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So, who's going to take the action against this whole system?
And with Penny Henneray, sorry sorry.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
David, I'll let jommy answer. That's a juny.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
So we really need to see the outcomes of those inquiries.
So we need to establish if there has been a
miss use of private information, and we can't really determine
what's the next step until that is made clear. The
fact that it's also been referred to police, that will
be important to see if there's any potential law that's
been broken in that space. And so the right people
(07:22):
have it in their courts and the next step is
really waiting to see the outcome of those different inquiries.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
This question goes to both of you, but I'll start
with you, David. The police are the people that ultimately
investigate and bring charges here. But do we need an
anti corruption authority like other countries. There is it time
that we actually said we're real now we need to
have something like that.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Well, I think before you look to establish even more
departments and entities, I mean you think about the number
we already listed in this conversation, the AG, the SFO,
the police, the Electoral Commission, the Privacy Commission, of the
Chief Statistician. If we believe that that vast swath of
(08:05):
departments and commissions and entities and so on aren't doing
their job, then potentially, but anyone that wants to establish
a new commission, I think it needs to explain what
exactly it is that it is not being done by
the people we already have.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
That Isn't that clearly the problem. We've got too many
people looking at too many things, instead of one group saying, hey,
we're in charge of anti corruption. We're going to clean
it all up and sort it out. Ginny. Wouldn't that
be a simple way.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
It's important to go back and see what's happened here.
So this is new information that's come to light as
a result of someone who's put their hand up and
volunteered that. So you have a whistleblower who has information
has come forward with that and so extepses to understand
whether that evidence stacks up or not. So I think
our systems are working well, there's been information come to light.
(08:55):
That's what the Chief Statistician, the police are also taking
a look. I think there's enough on place here to
make sure that we can check that what should have
happened is done and if it's not, then we are
need steptual consequences as a result of them.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
My question still hasn't really been there you go.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
There, Well, look, I think I think it has, But
can I just make a wider plot that part of
Maori clearly has a different view of the way that
New Zealand should run at quite a deep level, even
to the point of thinking that there should be another parliament.
If they have these beliefs, I think it's up to
(09:32):
them to persuade the rest of New Zealand that that
is the way things should be, not to breach all
of the usual conventions and rules that people sign up to.
You know, recently we've seen them making videos calling for revolution,
putting out social media posts with antique guns on them
(09:54):
calling for people to rise up. We've had Tavatu Marii
MPs taking videos of other MPs through windows, describing inaccurately,
unnecessarily and sively our government as a quote unquote White's government,
which is clearly untrue and really stupord. I think ultimately
(10:15):
the question they need to answer is, if their ideas
about the future of our country are so good, why
can't they persuade people in a civilized way that appeals
to people's sense of reason and logic. And if their
ideas aren't that good, is it really worth doing so
much damage to the institutions of our society that by
and large have actually been pretty successful.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Ginny, I want to start with you on this. It's
been a week since the government revealed its first budget
with tax cuts, boost for health and education, but also
broken promises from national on more cancer drugs. What does
this actually mean for real New Zealanders this budget?
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Well, I think it's just starting to think and now
some of the damage that the budget has done, And
you're right that the sense is that this government has
just made the wrong choices. We've seen nearly three billion
dollars go to land lords and ten billion on income
tax relief, but they didn't keep a promise those vital
(11:13):
tense medicines that they promised to people who voted for
them because they believed it would be funded, and now
they've found out that that's not the case. And I
think it's just devastating because so many people know someone
personally within their own family or even themselves, who have
been affected by cancer.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
David, how really important while the tax Council was it
just a promise that you had to fulfill.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I think it's hugely important for the simple fact that
people are really hurting financially up and down New Zealand. Yes,
the government has major challenges balancing its budget, providing the
services that people require, and reducing the debt that has
grown up over the past five years, but it's also
true that families, people in small business, people running farms
(12:05):
are all under a lot of pressure, and reducing taxes
means that we are letting them keep some more of
their own money and actually transferring resources away from the
public sector into people's private bank accounts, which is sorely needed.
A lot of people say, look, you know, twenty bucks
a week. Some people on high salaries will scoff at that,
(12:28):
but for me, it's actually the difference between gradually going
further and further into overdraft or keeping ahead of my bills.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Jinny, really do you think twenty dollars is going to
save us right now?
Speaker 5 (12:41):
It's not even that for some families because when they
pay for their bus, for their cad or that the
lunch school lunch isn't adequate anymore. The rates for going
up on your car, for your warrant, and your Red
Joe debt's going up. All those things are going up
for people, and that the amount given back in a
tax cut is simply not going to cut it. But
(13:03):
I don't know if you saw Nick, the interview between
Jack Chayne in Nikola Willis, but what really came out
in that interview was that this government is actually spending
more than the previous labor government, and in addition to that,
they are borrowing to pay for tax cuts, which is
just going to drive our economy further into the ground.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
David, would you like to respond? I did see the interview,
and I thought Nichola Willis was very good, by the way,
But David, would you like to respond to the fact
that you have been told that you're borrowing more.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Well, first of all, let's just look at the amount
of savings that were found reducing spending across the board,
and the amount that we're cutting taxes by we're actually
making more savings than we are cutting taxes, So the
tax cut package and the spending package actually balanced. In fact,
they're slightly positive in terms of our ability to repay debt.
(14:02):
And I think the other thing that Jimmy is absolutely
right to empathize with people who are facing a lot
of cost pressures. I certainly do. I hear about it
every day and my heart goes out to people who
are saying, look, I've been doing the right thing, but
over the last five years, stuff's got harder and harder
and harder. And one area where that shows up is
(14:22):
the number of people experiencing mental distress according to the
Health New Zealand. So people are on edge, there's no
question about that. But I think where Ginny needs to
be a little bit I guess more reflective, is that
what we inherited was completely unsustainable. The government was running
(14:42):
deficits well into the future. The public services, the quality
that people are receiving, and everything from health to education
to keeping the streets safe was in decline. If we
carried on with the track that they had set for us,
we would have actually really been going towards a disaster.
And where that ends is that at some point the
(15:05):
ratings agencies, the Moodies and the standards and paws out
of New York starts saying, look, we don't know that
New Zealand is such a good credit risk, and that
pushes up interest rates for everybody, including everyone with a mortgage,
everyone with a small business with loans because suddenly the
rest of the world's not so sure we want to
loan to New Zealand, and if we do, we'll demand
(15:27):
higher interest rates to do it. So Yep, totally get
what Jenny's saying, But let's just zoom out and have
a look at the wider context and what this government
is trying to wrestle back into some sort of reasonable
economic and fiscal circumstances.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Can either of you tell me what this budget did
for small business in New Zealand, because that's how our
country has been built. Jenny, Well, I just don't.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Make a point that only a couple of days ago
it's come out that New Zealand's likely to get a
lower credit rating from one of the main organizations, Fitch,
and that steps in the Herald Thomas Coglom wrote that article,
and that's a direct result of the increased borrowing and
the inflationary tax cuts that out of this budget. So
(16:16):
right throughout COVID, we maintained a high credit rating on
all those major organizations, and it's looking like for the
first time New Zealand will get a lower credit rating
as a result of this budget, and that will meet
It costs more to borrow, so for borrowing for those
tax cuts, we're paying more and more. And to get
(16:38):
to your question, there's nothing in this budget for small businesses.
Those one operator outfits that pay a huge amount now,
and increased insurance, increased instances of retail crime, all of
those things are a major overhead for small businesses that
are struggling, and there was very little to address those
(17:00):
people that are really struggling to make a living.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Because David, when you need money, you need your business
to do well. Right, so you as a government need
small business to do well so they can generate more
money to pay more taxes.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Surely, well, that's absolutely true. But if you come back
to the question around small business, I mean, first of all,
retail crime is a major issue, but it's not like
it's just popped up in the last few months. In fact,
actually the measures that this government has taken tougher sentencing,
more prison capacity, youth areous offender facilities and programs, toughening
(17:39):
up the sentencing laws, getting rids of the Section twenty
seven cultural reports that were basically sob story for convicted offenders.
I mean, we are cleaning up a big mess in
terms of lawlessness that I agree is a major challenge
for retail crime, but something that we've inherited and are
(18:00):
getting back on top of. In terms of what the
budget does more generally for small business. You know what
people need as customers coming through the door with money
in their pockets, and this budget is all about getting
on top of inflation. It's all about letting people keep
a bit more of their own money so they're a
bit more buoyant in their own bank accounts. And it's
(18:21):
also increasingly about getting rid of the red tape and
the regulation that has made it harder to be in business,
such as what you've seen from Brooklyn Walden in the
last twenty four hours with respect to the holiday pay
and leave arrangements, which are so impossibly complex. They managed
to leave employers and employees none of the wise or
(18:43):
worse off than wasting a lot of their time with uncertainty.
It's taken shorts in the budget for small business.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Figures out this week show that alcohol related harm cost
the country are about seven point eight billion dollars every year.
Police Commissioner Andrew Coster has suggested we could reduce harm
by raising the price of alcohol and cracking down on
suburban liquor stores in ours alcohol is sold Ginny. Does
this make sense? Do we actually need to crack down
(19:10):
on alcohol sales?
Speaker 5 (19:11):
In JW Zealand actually passed legislation towards the end of
twenty twenty three that gave local communities more power to
have a say about who was selling alcohol in the area.
That the legislation wasn't working, so the local Alcohol policy
or LAP that was able to be challenged in the courts,
and some of those big players were able to discontinually
(19:34):
take it to the court, so they weren't able to
be enforced by local communities. So we changed that legislation
to give local people more power over what was being
sold in terms of alcohol in the area. But that
was legislation that both act in National voted against David.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Do we actually really need to look at the sale
of liquorict? I mean, when was it first drawn up?
I think nineteen sixty three. It's been revised a few times.
Is it now a perfect time to actually look at
it and say, hey, let's try and sort it out.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Well, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Acts was passed
in twenty twelve, so it's a bit more recent than that.
While we're talking about history, I think we've got to
be a bit more realistic about this. First of all,
the wowses will always be with us. I mean, one
of the reasons that New Zealand was the first country
on Earth where every single adult can vote was actually
(20:29):
a alliance between the prohibitionists and the feminists and Kate
Shepherd was part of the women's Christian Temperance movement. So
this is a long running part of New Zealand politics.
Second of all, if you take the slightly more recent
trend of the last forty years, you go back to
about nineteen eighty you had a New Zealand where you
(20:53):
couldn't buy alcohol and supermarkets, you couldn't advertise it on
any broadcast media.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
It was very.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Difficult to get and yet we had the worst drinking
statistics of almost anywhere in the world. The amount that
people were drinking was massively higher than now. The amount
of alcohol consumed per person has plummeted over the last
forty years. The amount of binge drinking was greater. I
suspect the amount of domestic abuse was greater, although it
(21:21):
wasn't taken as seriously on those times, And the amount
of people running driving around killing themselves and others drunk
driving was greater. So David forty years.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
David, do you think the system doesn't need to be
looked at? Do you think that it's fine that the
police can do whatever they can, close down what they want,
open up what they want, they can decide. I mean,
do you think the system's right?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Well, broadly yes, And I'm just making the point, and
I think it's worth doing of putting things in a
little bit of context. Here. We have a drinking culture
that is becoming more sophisticated, that is becoming more civilized
and creating less harm over time. So yes, the wowsers
will always be with us and inherent part of New
(22:07):
Zealand politics. It's at least the eighteen nineties. However, every
few years there's an enormous panic and the truth is
that people will always drink, there will always be a
set of rules around them, and by and large, if
you actually look at the data and the evidence over
the right time style, things are actually getting better in
(22:28):
New Zealand, and we should consider that before we take
away people's convenience and their freedom to act responsibly on
their own terms, Before we make it harder for small
business owns to actually do business in this country, before
we crunch down on some really important industries around brewing
and winemaking in this country. We've actually got to have
(22:49):
a bit of balance in the discussion.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Any your thoughts, it's about harmonimization. So we want to
if people want to enjoy a drink responsibly and do that,
that's great. But at that end where it's two am,
all of police call outs are our correlated around court
in place at that time, there's higher levels of violence,
these higher levels of disorder, and these higher levels of
(23:12):
family violence. Those rates are growing and growing. In the
vast majority of family violence related incidents do involve either
drugs or alcohol, and more predominantly alcohol, So there is
a huge amount of damage that alcohol still does to
our community, and I think we can always look for
opportunities in new ways of minimizing that harm and stopping
(23:35):
harmful drinking and people having excess quantities also when they
are already intoxicated.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Jinny, do you think the answer is just to close
the places down, because that's what the police seemed to
be thinking. Do you think it's as simple as that,
just close it all down, like let's go, let's go
twelve the lapses four o'clock. But police want them to
close it too. Should they be making that decision.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
It's always a balance for those communities to decide. In
some of those areas are calling out for that because
they see the harm that the change in their dislike
enables communities to have more of a say about who's
selling alcohol on their local corner, and those communities who
see that harm are using that to try and stop
more outlet opening up.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
There was hundreds of young people that took to the
streets and live in over the weekend doing burnouts, on
doing drag racing, but only two people were arrested and
only six cars were seeds, which under the current law
actually have to be given back David, I want to
start with you with this. I think this was a
golden opportunity for the Police Minister, the Police Commissioner and
(24:41):
the new government and police to show that who's in charge.
They knew this was going to happen, they knew what
was going to go on, and again we saw nothing happen.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Well, I think it's a little unfair to say that
nothing happened. What you have is a situation where the
police have been present, the numbers of people that they
were forced to contend with was very large, particularly for
a remote area where no matter who's in power or
what their policy is, there's not going to be a
large number of police. But are now following up with
(25:16):
the people involved, and I think you will see a
tougher response than you might have under the zeitgeist of
the previous government, where we were sort of supposed to
try being nice to crime and criminals in the hope
that they'd start being nice back.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
To be fair, Jenny, we saw nothing different. We saw
a golden opportunity to show who was in charge, and
nothing happened.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Take a lot more than tough talk to resolve the
current crime problem that New Zealand faces. But unfortunately that's
the only thing that Mark Mitchel has in his bag
of tricks. It was crystal clear in the budget that
this government has no intention of properly resourcing the police service,
and we will continue to see instances, particularly in rural
New Zealand, where there are fewer police officers, more instances
(26:05):
of crime and the resourcing simply isn't available for police
to be able to do their job properly.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
David, There's been a lot of talk about making it
tougher on those public people getting on our public roads
and doing burnouts or going to tongue eas or gangs.
There's lots and lots of talk, but it doesn't feel
like anything's changed changed or changing.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Well, it's certainly true that there's a process, and I
know we will hate to hear that, but it is
the case that you've got to change policies, you've got
to change laws, bring down a budget, fund new activities,
stop doing things that were ineffective. All of that is
changing so that fundamentally you're more likely to run into
a police officer. If you do, you're more likely to
(26:54):
be arrested and charged, and if you're convicted then there'll
be more capacity to imprison you, and a tougher Sentencing
Act and fewer cultural reports, in fact, no taxpayer funding
cultural reports to make sure that you are locked up.
So right across the board, from policing to sentencing, two corrections,
the government is making changes that will have an effect
(27:17):
on the behavior of people who want to break the
law in our communities.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
How long do we have to wait? How long do
you think we're going to have to wait before we can?
You know, I heard here they do per se all
and say the other day she doesn't walk down the road,
now she takes a car. I mean, how long is
it going to take before we are going to see
the difference?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Well, I don't think there's going to be any one moment.
If you are looking for on the twenty seventh of
X month, then something will change, you know, we will see.
What you will see is a change in attitudes that
is continuous. You might use an old Rugby analogy of
a role in more where each month we see more
(27:57):
police with more powers, with more places to send criminals,
putting them before judges that have a clearer sense of
what's required from the Sentencing Act, and over time there'll
be a rebalancing from the idea that the justice system
is there for the criminals to the idea that the
justice system is there for the victims. Those are the
people who have been largely neglected over the last five years.
(28:21):
And you've got to remember, I'd just like to come
in and the goal was to reduce the prison population.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
JE then if we could look at if we could
just take a look, for example, about how this government
has made the wrong choices. And you can see the
police budget that just come out. Police had to found
fifty five million in saving so they cut that out
of it. That's nearly two hundred people working to support
police get back out on the street quickly. Those jobs
(28:49):
are cut now, so we have fewer people assisting police
to do their job. And police got a one off
funding of one hundred and twenty million just to keep
the lights on literally to pay for electricity rates insurance.
One hundred and twenty million one off payment that will
run out the end of the next financial year and
police need to find another.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
The question people need to ask themselves is why was
that necessary?
Speaker 5 (29:15):
After we about the types of services that they're going
to receive. People aren't going to receive the same level
of service from our police if they're being funded less.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
David, I have to go because you guys have got
to go. But if you want to reply very quickly,
I'll take it.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Well, you've got five hundred more police committed. To say
that we're going to have fewer police because we're making
back off of savings is frankly disingenuous and it rests
on the Great Labor assumption that the only way to
solve a problem is to throw more money at it. Actually,
because they threw so much money at so many problems
and failed, now we don't have that option anymore because
(29:55):
we've run out of other people's money. Now this government
is committed to getting results through greater efficiency and it's
exactly what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Thank you both for joining us. I know you've both
got to take off, but thank you for joining us
this morning. It's been nice to have you both on
the show. Prime Minister for the week David Seymour and
please spokes person for Labor, Ginny Anderson, appreciate you both
have a great rest of the week and get ready
for next week when we're all back at work.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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