June 30, 2024 • 8 mins
It has been revealed the Mayors of Porirua, Wellington, Upper Hutt and Hutt City met in May to talk through the idea of a Wellington super city, which would see the four councils merged into one.
Three mayors seem to be on board with the discussion, but Wellington mayor Tory Whanau says while an eventual amalgamation "probably makes sense", residents weren't asking for the change.
Hutt City mayor Campbell Barry is open to the idea, and joined Nick Mills to talk through the possible benefits.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks at b joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Now is hut City mayor Campbell Barry? Good morning, Campbell.
I better turn them on. See I told you it's
my first day back. Give me a break, Campbell back. Sorry, mate,
I've taken a week off and I'm flying a seven
forty seven without the controls.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Good morning, Nick, Good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Good How would you trip overseas?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Firstly, it was good, learned a lot. I think that
you know, the conversation we're about to have as relevant
with the experiences of the United Kingdom and places like
Manchester and London. Yeah. No, really good experience and looking
forward to being able to work with the delegation and
producing a report some good recommendations around how we can
get the best deal for Wellington when it comes to
(00:53):
water and also the framework around city and regional deals.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Right, let's talk about mega city. First off, what are
your thoughts of the idea of an amalgamation a super
city for Wellington.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Oh, I think all options should be on the table.
I think the status quo is broken. That is not
just down to the current structure of having a number
of councils in the Rawington region. I think it comes
down to the funding and financing leaders that local government
generally has. We are feeling the pinch right now with
the rate increases that have been put in across the region,
and we know that that's going to have a big
(01:24):
impact on households and businesses. We do need to change.
We do need to be able to make sure we
are fit for purpose. We are investing in infrastructure, we
aren't kicking the can down the road on those things,
but also that we aren't front having to front load
all of that cost onto today's rate payers, which is
kind of what we're forced to do with the structure
that we've currently got.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Do you reckon the public right round that region will
support it.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I think we need to have a conversation. I think
we need to ask the question is the status quo
fit for purpose? In twenty twenty four, this conversation happened
over ten years ago, and clearly our community said that
they wanted to retain the status quo and they had
serious concerns around what amalgamation would do for local representation.
But I think now we're at a point where we
(02:11):
were at a bit of a tipping point actually where
we need to talk seriously about this and we need
to work out what is the best structure that will
get us good results right across the region, will also
retain local decision making in our local communities.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
You know what I really hate when this discussion comes
up as they bring up the ten years ago when
you are well, we tried it ten years ago and
we couldn't get it through. That was a completely different
deal and that was doomed from the start. Really, let's
be really honest. Why are rapper? You know, Capiti was
a massive it was too much, too far and was
never going to work. Why do we keep bringing that up?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah? I think that's right. I think that a proposal
that looked at the Metropolitan Council's upper Heart, lower Heart,
Putt or Wellington is more realistic. I think that people
generally live and work within that area and are more
familiar with those boundaries rather than including the entire region.
And I think that it's potentially a way for us
(03:08):
to go to government and say, hey, if we're willing
to become more efficient, we're willing to put a proposal
forward around how we operate better. You need to give
us some new funding leavers and mechanisms as well, So
they need to come to the party. I think if
we're up for this conversation, because my only concern is
if you keep the current structure and current way of
doing things and you simply amalgamate the councils, it's like
(03:30):
rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. You might have
efficiency for the first five years, but that will fall
away pretty quick. So we need to have government there
being willing to talk with us a while as well
around new ways of doing things.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You've obviously had the discussions with Tory Farno Wellington mayor.
I mean she's sort of not completely against it, but
she's definitely not for it.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, I mean I haven't really spoken at detail about
this proposal with the Wellington mayor. I think that that's
for her to talk about her position and where Wellington
site's at. My viewers that now is the time for
all of us to come together and have a serious
conversation and engage our communities because we can't do this
(04:11):
without the support of our communities. We need to be
really upfront about that. But I think that we are
at a point now when we look at the rate increases,
when we look at the challenges around debt, around infrastructure,
that something does need to change. This isn't a single
council's problem. This is happening up and down New Zealand,
and I think that in Wellington we could lead the
way and forming something different and something better for our people.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
You're part of Wellington. Rates a rising by sixteen point
nine percent, that's roughly eleven dollars a week for the
average household. Why do you have such an increase in Lahart?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Basically it comes down to a whole heap of fixed costs, insurance,
interest rates, other borrowing costs, which have all really forced
us to put a significant chunk of rate increase through,
regardless of making cuts and changes and finding savings. The
other half of it really comes down to water infrastructure.
(05:06):
You know, I was one of those meors I tell
you who very few of us in New Zealand who
said there is a tsunami of costs coming our way
when it comes to water infrastructure investment. If we don't
change the way we deliver three waters. That is coming
home to bite now because councils are starting to say
we can't deny this problem any longer. For US, over
half of our rate increase is due to three water
(05:27):
and three water infrastructure investment, So this day was always coming.
I mean, we do need a different way of doing
things to ensure we can spread the costs and ensure
that we aren't kicking the can down the road on
that investment as well. So it's a really challenging spot.
Lower Huart is in the same position as councils up
and down the country, and do.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
You reckon just the start of it? Do you reckon
that we're just going to have twenty percent increases for
a few years.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I think this year, in particular, with the level of
inflation we've experienced over the last two years, has made
it even worse. When you look at civil construction costs
inflation that has gone through the roof about twenty percent
higher than was predicted three years ago. So I think
we're at a little bit of a perfect storm situation
this year. I would say that it would come back
down as inflation comes down generally as well, but it's
(06:18):
not going to get easier. The system is so fundamentally
broken in how we fund and do infrastructure. Councils have
two options. They either put the rates up and the
debt up to pay for the infrastructure, or they don't
do the infrastructure upgrades, and we know that the latter
I think would even create more problems for us in
the long run and costs more in the long run
(06:39):
as well.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Campbell, well, I've got you here. You sent a letter
to the Greater Wellington Regional Council suggesting they look at
purchasing these the airport shares that Wellington City Council held
bent on selling. Why is that a good idea of
it still a possibility for me?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
It's it's around exploring all options. I think that the
airport is absolutely a regional asset. Before you sell it
off and make it one hundred percent private, why would
we not have a conversation as a region about retaining
the shares. I'm not saying that it's an absolute goer.
I just am saying that, hey, well let's get together
as a region and say are there some other options
(07:15):
here before they are sold? Because in reality, you know,
practical reality, once they are sold, they are gone forever.
So in my mind, the wider Region hasn't been part
of that conversation and always about putting that on the table,
and I think there is an opportunity to have those
conversations before things are further advanced laid down the track
from Wellington City.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Do you think you've got any hope at all? Simon
Wolf was on the show saying you're absolutely dreaming. You're dreaming, mate,
He said.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Oh possibly, But hey, what's the harm in having the
conversation as part of the region. I mean, I think
you would agree Nick that the airport is a regional
asset absolutely, so why would we not? Why would we
not look at it? I think that while you know
there is a good point in being a minority shareholder, well,
what influence and power do you really hold in regards
to the future of the airport. I mean that's a
(08:02):
very good question. But we have not had the conversation
about about retaining that regional influence on the report, So
I mean that's where I'm coming from on it. I'm
not did sit on retaining it within regional ownership. I
just think we need to talk about it. Why would
we not.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Thank you very much for your time. Yes, I agree
with you wholeheartedly, and good on you for a least
experience of trying actually putting your feet in the water,
Campbell Berry. Lower huts mea hut city. Why do they
call it a hut, Sudy. It's lower heart, doesn't it?
Lower hut and upper hut. But they try to sort
of jazzy it up a little bit with hut city.
Campbell Berry, good young, mayor of our region.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine to am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks at b joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Now is hut City mayor Campbell Barry? Good morning, Campbell.
I better turn them on. See I told you it's
my first day back. Give me a break, Campbell back. Sorry, mate,
I've taken a week off and I'm flying a seven
forty seven without the controls.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Good morning, Nick, Good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Good How would you trip overseas?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Firstly, it was good, learned a lot. I think that
you know, the conversation we're about to have as relevant
with the experiences of the United Kingdom and places like
Manchester and London. Yeah. No, really good experience and looking
forward to being able to work with the delegation and
producing a report some good recommendations around how we can
get the best deal for Wellington when it comes to
(00:53):
water and also the framework around city and regional deals.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Right, let's talk about mega city. First off, what are
your thoughts of the idea of an amalgamation a super
city for Wellington.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Oh, I think all options should be on the table.
I think the status quo is broken. That is not
just down to the current structure of having a number
of councils in the Rawington region. I think it comes
down to the funding and financing leaders that local government
generally has. We are feeling the pinch right now with
the rate increases that have been put in across the region,
and we know that that's going to have a big
(01:24):
impact on households and businesses. We do need to change.
We do need to be able to make sure we
are fit for purpose. We are investing in infrastructure, we
aren't kicking the can down the road on those things,
but also that we aren't front having to front load
all of that cost onto today's rate payers, which is
kind of what we're forced to do with the structure
that we've currently got.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Do you reckon the public right round that region will
support it.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I think we need to have a conversation. I think
we need to ask the question is the status quo
fit for purpose? In twenty twenty four, this conversation happened
over ten years ago, and clearly our community said that
they wanted to retain the status quo and they had
serious concerns around what amalgamation would do for local representation.
But I think now we're at a point where we
(02:11):
were at a bit of a tipping point actually where
we need to talk seriously about this and we need
to work out what is the best structure that will
get us good results right across the region, will also
retain local decision making in our local communities.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
You know what I really hate when this discussion comes
up as they bring up the ten years ago when
you are well, we tried it ten years ago and
we couldn't get it through. That was a completely different
deal and that was doomed from the start. Really, let's
be really honest. Why are rapper? You know, Capiti was
a massive it was too much, too far and was
never going to work. Why do we keep bringing that up?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah? I think that's right. I think that a proposal
that looked at the Metropolitan Council's upper Heart, lower Heart,
Putt or Wellington is more realistic. I think that people
generally live and work within that area and are more
familiar with those boundaries rather than including the entire region.
And I think that it's potentially a way for us
(03:08):
to go to government and say, hey, if we're willing
to become more efficient, we're willing to put a proposal
forward around how we operate better. You need to give
us some new funding leavers and mechanisms as well, So
they need to come to the party. I think if
we're up for this conversation, because my only concern is
if you keep the current structure and current way of
doing things and you simply amalgamate the councils, it's like
(03:30):
rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. You might have
efficiency for the first five years, but that will fall
away pretty quick. So we need to have government there
being willing to talk with us a while as well
around new ways of doing things.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You've obviously had the discussions with Tory Farno Wellington mayor.
I mean she's sort of not completely against it, but
she's definitely not for it.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, I mean I haven't really spoken at detail about
this proposal with the Wellington mayor. I think that that's
for her to talk about her position and where Wellington
site's at. My viewers that now is the time for
all of us to come together and have a serious
conversation and engage our communities because we can't do this
(04:11):
without the support of our communities. We need to be
really upfront about that. But I think that we are
at a point now when we look at the rate increases,
when we look at the challenges around debt, around infrastructure,
that something does need to change. This isn't a single
council's problem. This is happening up and down New Zealand,
and I think that in Wellington we could lead the
way and forming something different and something better for our people.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
You're part of Wellington. Rates a rising by sixteen point
nine percent, that's roughly eleven dollars a week for the
average household. Why do you have such an increase in Lahart?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Basically it comes down to a whole heap of fixed costs, insurance,
interest rates, other borrowing costs, which have all really forced
us to put a significant chunk of rate increase through,
regardless of making cuts and changes and finding savings. The
other half of it really comes down to water infrastructure.
(05:06):
You know, I was one of those meors I tell
you who very few of us in New Zealand who
said there is a tsunami of costs coming our way
when it comes to water infrastructure investment. If we don't
change the way we deliver three waters. That is coming
home to bite now because councils are starting to say
we can't deny this problem any longer. For US, over
half of our rate increase is due to three water
(05:27):
and three water infrastructure investment, So this day was always coming.
I mean, we do need a different way of doing
things to ensure we can spread the costs and ensure
that we aren't kicking the can down the road on
that investment as well. So it's a really challenging spot.
Lower Huart is in the same position as councils up
and down the country, and do.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
You reckon just the start of it? Do you reckon
that we're just going to have twenty percent increases for
a few years.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I think this year, in particular, with the level of
inflation we've experienced over the last two years, has made
it even worse. When you look at civil construction costs
inflation that has gone through the roof about twenty percent
higher than was predicted three years ago. So I think
we're at a little bit of a perfect storm situation
this year. I would say that it would come back
down as inflation comes down generally as well, but it's
(06:18):
not going to get easier. The system is so fundamentally
broken in how we fund and do infrastructure. Councils have
two options. They either put the rates up and the
debt up to pay for the infrastructure, or they don't
do the infrastructure upgrades, and we know that the latter
I think would even create more problems for us in
the long run and costs more in the long run
(06:39):
as well.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Campbell, well, I've got you here. You sent a letter
to the Greater Wellington Regional Council suggesting they look at
purchasing these the airport shares that Wellington City Council held
bent on selling. Why is that a good idea of
it still a possibility for me?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
It's it's around exploring all options. I think that the
airport is absolutely a regional asset. Before you sell it
off and make it one hundred percent private, why would
we not have a conversation as a region about retaining
the shares. I'm not saying that it's an absolute goer.
I just am saying that, hey, well let's get together
as a region and say are there some other options
(07:15):
here before they are sold? Because in reality, you know,
practical reality, once they are sold, they are gone forever.
So in my mind, the wider Region hasn't been part
of that conversation and always about putting that on the table,
and I think there is an opportunity to have those
conversations before things are further advanced laid down the track
from Wellington City.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Do you think you've got any hope at all? Simon
Wolf was on the show saying you're absolutely dreaming. You're dreaming, mate,
He said.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Oh possibly, But hey, what's the harm in having the
conversation as part of the region. I mean, I think
you would agree Nick that the airport is a regional
asset absolutely, so why would we not? Why would we
not look at it? I think that while you know
there is a good point in being a minority shareholder, well,
what influence and power do you really hold in regards
to the future of the airport. I mean that's a
(08:02):
very good question. But we have not had the conversation
about about retaining that regional influence on the report, So
I mean that's where I'm coming from on it. I'm
not did sit on retaining it within regional ownership. I
just think we need to talk about it. Why would
we not.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Thank you very much for your time. Yes, I agree
with you wholeheartedly, and good on you for a least
experience of trying actually putting your feet in the water,
Campbell Berry. Lower huts mea hut city. Why do they
call it a hut, Sudy. It's lower heart, doesn't it?
Lower hut and upper hut. But they try to sort
of jazzy it up a little bit with hut city.
Campbell Berry, good young, mayor of our region.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine to am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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