The Royal Commission into abuse in care has revealed horrifying stories of abuse, but what's the next move from the government, and what will redress look like?
And how much blame can be laid at the feet of the last government for Health NZ's money troubles?
Those were the questions for our politics panel this week, with Labour's health and Wellington issues spokesperson Ayesha Verrall and National's Wairarapa MP Mike Butterick.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk Said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings news Talk said
Bin can make decision.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Politics Thursday. Just having a little bit of an argument
with the Ishould before we went onto here. I was
just saying, how wonderful winter's beat and she's looking at
me as if I need some help.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
It's been pretty cold at my place.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Oh gosh, put the turn the heat on. This has
been a great winter. Joining us for politics Thursday is
Labour's Health and Wonnington's Issue spokesperson Ishavia. Good morning, Isha,
wedding Neck. You come from Southland. I'm gonna have a
fight with you on this. I mean you come from
You're a Southland girl and you're saying that our winter
has a big perfect this winter.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Yeah, I am, And I bought one of those wodies,
you know, those giant place things with a hood that
I can go around and to keep myself warm this winter.
It's just unfortunately not in the Parliament dress code.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Okay, well, Jesus, someone should talk to Shy. I shouldn't
have said that. Taking the name of the lord's name famous.
Someone should talk to that Mary Party leader if you're
talking about dress standards. I mean he wears a cowboy
hat and pink shirts that are popping at every button
and pants look like they're gonna split when he stands up.
So have you going to dress rest? Dond and someone's
forgotten to mention it to him? National UH and nationals
(01:33):
Wirerappa MP Mike, but good morning, Mike.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Good morning, good morning.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I saw.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
How are you guys? We must be made as soon
as stuff in the way. I think the July has
been incredibly kind of mild.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, I think so too. I shall I think I'm
starting to worry about Isha with that, you know. Anyway,
let's start. There's a report, the report, the dreaded report
from the Royal Commission into Abuse and Care was released
yesterday and the stories of abuse and how it went
on for so long and the numbers are just sickening.
Icehow what did you make of the report?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah? Well, firstly, I just want to acknowledge all of
the survivors of abuse who have played and carried this
truth with them for so long while they weren't believed
by the people around them, all by the government. To
many instances and today, Hope or yesterday I hope acknowledged
(02:28):
their journey and their suffering and is the first really
important step in putting things right. And Nick, for me,
I mean, it's the scale and the fact that it's
been there all along and may still be is still happening,
and that while we continue our day to day, some
(02:51):
people in our community have been carrying this abuse and
suffering for so long. That's I think the big takeaway
for me.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
There were one hundred and thirty eight recommendations Mike in
the report. How many of these do you think the
government will impament?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I'm not sure of that. There's obviously that's going to
take time. But just in terms of as Asha said,
I would also acknowledge all of those survivors and also
those who's contributed to that report. And as you said,
the numbers are staggering, absolutely staggering. I mean they're talking
up to it's estimated one hundred and fifty six thousand
(03:29):
people that may have been abused in state and or
faith based care. It is just appalling. And in the
house yesterday it was incredibly poignant moment. The gallery was
charged with emotions they should understand and you know, the
people I've talked to that have read the report and
it's close to three thousand pages, you know, you can
see it and hear it in their voice. They're deeply
(03:51):
moved and impact and so you can only imagine impacts
on those that have actually lived it. They've suffered through it,
and appallingly they were ignored, their voices were ignored.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
And of course no governments can put their hand up
and say it wasn't under our watch. Everyone you know,
for the last sixty years, seventy years have been involved.
But I must admit, and I thought Erica Stranford yesterday
was I don't know, she just felt like a minister
that was in charge and was going to do the
(04:21):
right thing. Do you think you'll see anything out of
the site.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah. I was encouraged by the government statements about how
they appear to be proactively gripping this up and stepping
forward now to take on the recommendations, and so I'm
pleased that our party also offered to support that effort.
And as Chris Hitkins said yesterday, this is bigger than politics.
(04:48):
We have to get this right. And you know, I
see that there's some conversation starting about whether there's a
bipartisan approach to the response, and I'm sure we'll play
our part in that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That's music to my ears. If you can everyone can
work together, it'll be a hell of a lot easier
transition to to getting some sort of success. What do
you might think? And I know it's early, and I
know that you're going to tell me it's too early
today that well, what do you think that redress should
look like?
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Again the kind exactly you said? I mean, I think
it's far too early, But I would have certainly agreed
with Asha. You know, we are united across all of
Parliament to do the right thing, and you know because
quite frankly, we owe those survivors a response that's delivered
with respect and the dignity that it actually deserves.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Wish how much of an impact will this report have
on public trust in these organizations that are looking after
our most vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Well, what I reflect is that probably the impact on
public trust has already been there because large numbers of
our community have been living with this abuse. And so
when I think back to times where maybe trust has
been challenged, I think, well, of course, so I think
(06:07):
back to the Parliament protest and I think, well, there
were a group of people there who didn't trust government.
And maybe part of the explanation is because authority in
people's lives hasn't always been used legitimately, fairly and cateringly
in our country. So you know, that's what I take
away is this has been there for some time, far
(06:30):
too long, and we have to start by putting this right.
And you know, the trust and government will be judged
by how well we do this.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Mike, do you think people will trust the government to
do the right thing?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
I would hope so, Nick, And as I tell you,
but you've just sit there and think of those eye
watering numbers. You know, a quarter of a million people
is completely understandable that they would have lost faith within
the government and system and those that were charged was
actually looking after them and providing that care. So we've
got a big job to turn around and make sure
(07:04):
that that can never ever happen.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
It's been a big week for Health New Zealand. The
government this week sacked what was left of the board
only three members I think were left, and appointed a commissioner.
After the Health Minute to Shane Ritti said the government's
department was spending one hundred and thirty million dollars over
and above its budget each month, and he laid the
blame strongly at the feet of the last government. Is
(07:28):
the issue as bad as the government has said it to.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Be, well, I think we need to dig into that
a little bit and work through the financial information as
it becomes public to check in fact that is the case.
But even if we take that on face face value,
the government has the government should have options about how
(07:51):
it addresses cost overruns at Fattura, and I would think
that embarking on a one point four billion dollar cost
cutting exercise, we just need a little bit more information
before we assume that that's the right thing to do.
There was a lot of spin coming out from the
podium on Monday, some of it blatantly ridiculous, like the
(08:14):
idea that a financial problem that they said that appeared
in the Defatora books in March could be put down
to the last government and what they described as things
in back office bureaucracy that had happened since twenty eighteen.
How on earth could that turn up in your books
in March. That's ridiculous, Mike.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Much of the fault of the last has been put
on the last government with us weight. He said much
of it was because of the last government's health reforms.
A lot of us think that the health reforms are
a good idea. Does your government still think they're a
good idea?
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Look, it's about in terms of the funding. I guess
I'll start with it. You know, we've put in record
amounts of funding, sixteen point seven billion. I think it is.
But I would also make the point that success isn't
defined by how much you spend six fine by the
outcomes you achieve, and the outcomes at the moment a
great barnt rate. The health sector is in a bit
of a shambles. And I think about when we talk
(09:14):
about back office in front room and getting the funding
to where it needs to go, and the diagram or
I talk about with people, is it just imagine a triangle.
We want something where you tip in the funding at
the top and it flows down to the bottom unimpeded
to the people providing the service and the people that
need the service. What we've actually got, because there's been
two and a half thousand back office star added, we've
(09:38):
got fourteen extra layers of bureaucracy. What we've actually got
is instead of a triangle, we've got an outglass, We've
this balloon at the top. We've got a whole lot
of clipboards in the bottleneck, actually impeding the flow of
that funding down to where it actually needs to go.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah. Look, I won't ask you to prove that about
the fourteen layers of management, Mike, because I think you
might struggle. But I do want to go back to
these matters of funding. Just to say that the health
funding is the biggest it's ever been is a rarely
meaningless statement. Inflation and population growth in the last year
means that, to Fatuwora does need more. And they told
(10:17):
us that at Select Committee. They said that the amount
that was estimated before the election was not enough for
them to be able to meet their costs in the
coming year. And that yet the government knew that. They
told us in Select Committee in March. So I assume
the government knew in March, and yet the government didn't
adjust the amount of plan to put into the health system.
So the government had choices and it chose to fund
(10:39):
tax cuts for landlords rather than addressing the cost pressures
in the health system. And the other thing that's come
through is that CE of Health New Zealand two days
ago said that the main cost going up in Health
New Zealand was nursing costs. That's actually what's gone up recently. Well,
if you put cast your mind back to last winter,
what we needed desperately were more nurses. So I don't
(11:00):
think that it's a I don't yet see evidence of
the crisis that the government has tried to spin and
say that we're in.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
How do we know there is a crisis?
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Mote.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Look, I hear it when I talk to the people
within the health sector, within the wire ePRO Electra and
some of the things like they just the structure is lost.
They don't know who to talk to. But I come
back to when we're talking about funding. Yes, it is
a record amount, but as I say, success isn't defined
by how much you spend. It's actually about the outcomes
(11:31):
that you achieve. And so it's about getting those efficiencies,
getting the financial balance, the governance and the management right
so that that funding does flow down to where it
needs to get to, which is the people providing and
needing health interventions.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
And the shame of the thing is is that if
you do talk to people on the front line. They'll
tell you that there's a hiring freezon in public hospitals.
So this whole idea that the government is going after
the back office when really they're stopping nurses from being hired.
New graduate nurses can't come on. We know that booking
clerks can't get their maternity leave covered. Is not enough
(12:06):
doctors and nurses to open the surgical hospital on the
North Shore. You know, I think the government's whole story
doesn't add up here, and this seems like political spin
to justify cost cutting in the health system.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
To be honest, ive show, I think the two and
a half thousand people in the back office stuff, I
think people would probably prefer toppers and nurses instead of
back office.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Can either of you tell me, Can either of you
tell me absolutely if we've now got enough nurses in
New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah. So the way that we've looked at that traditionally
is a measure it's called CCDM where they look at
the number of nurses on each ward. I understand that
those measurements are better forty FA to WARA now, so
they are better stuffed, But I don't think we're quite
at the level where on those agreed measurements that the
(12:54):
Union's Antifa to War are signed up to. I don't
think anyone would say that we're at one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yet, Mike, do you know?
Speaker 4 (13:00):
No, look at off the top of my head neck.
I don't know. I do know that the numbers are
improving and improvinglatively quickly, and so yeah, I just don't
have those specific numbers for you.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well into morning's political our, well three quarters of an hour,
half an hour. Gosh, sorry, I should and I I
should ask me a question. I should tell me the
question you asked me.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I asked you if you thought how you thought Kamala
Harris would do in the US elections.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
And what did I say?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Well, you said you thought you'd take it.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, I've called it early. I've called it early. I've
got it. I think I'm the first broadcast that I
called it early. I don't I should, do you agree
with me?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah? Well, I reckon it's now fifty to fifty is
it was looking very bad for the Democrats and now
a lot more momentum and enthusiasm. And I think on
the left of politics, if you do go with bold
choices for your leadership, and this will be a historic event.
If a woman is elected in the US, then you
do mobilize a lot of enthusiasm from your supporters.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Micha, I've got to ask you too, now that I've
it's asked this question. Nothing to do with me. She
just threw it to be in the ad break. We've
got your side.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
I actually think it's going to be incredibly close close,
and obviously change of leadership, you know, it's going to
change things quite dramatically, and so yeah, I mean it's
going to be fascinating to watch to see what happens.
But I think it will be incredibly close.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I'm calling it. I'm going bold. I like to go
hard and go early, and I've gone bold. I'm going
to She's going to take it out. We've talked on
the show about this week about drug harm and harm
from drugs cost US about twenty million a week. And
while most of it's from Harmer's calls from meth and phetamine,
harms from the like of MDMA and cocaine is rising
to cocaine's on the big rise. Mike. What's the government
(14:49):
doing to crack down on illicted drugs?
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think Tuesday and foremost Mick I would agree. I
think back to when I was a young fellaw and
this's a few decades ago now, just the increase in
those the types of drugs and the harmful drugs, and
I think about p for example. We see that in
our communities and it is an obvious challenge. It's sexually
destroying people's fami, these lives and destroying communities. So look,
(15:14):
there is a seat. I think it's something like, you know,
the games are a large contributor to that, and it's
something like about the gangs cause about twenty five percent
of all harm from drug offenses or drugs despite being
about they're about a quarter of one percent of the population.
So that is about proactively going out and trying to
target some of those some of those groups of people
(15:36):
that we know are dealing with drugs.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Ahicha, How do we solve this problem? Do we need
to focus it more on a health response rather than
a criminal one. I know that's been Labour's thing from
a few years ago.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Well, we certainly need a balance. And on the enforcement side,
I think this is the wrong time to be making
cuts at customs for example. But certainly you know we
have a drug problem because the demand for it exists
in our community, and unless we also offer people expanded
options for treatment, then will continue to struggle. And one
(16:10):
of the programs that I was lucky to visit as
Minister of Health was a great program called Tiata Oranger,
and it just seems absolutely life changing. So people who
are picked up by the cops get offered health treatment.
Often that is provided in the community by peer support workers,
(16:31):
some of whom are former users and dealers themselves. And
a very moving story I heard that one of those
peer support workers got up and said, you know, I
used to be the dealer in this town and I
thought to turn my life has been a waste, she said,
and the best thing I can do to make good
on that is to help other people come off drugs.
(16:53):
And I was just blown away by the success that
program was making as a result of the work of
people like her.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Mike, I've been thinking about this lately because obviously I'm
in the hospitality industry and drugs are a very prevalent
part of that. Do you think as a society, and
especially with young people that are approach to drugs are different.
Do we accept drugs a hell of a lot more
than we used to.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
That's a pretty complicated one, darn pack.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Look as a father of four young adults, now you
know that would always be one of my biggest fears
that your kids go down that drug pathway. I mean,
we're very fortunate they haven't, but you're right. I think
you know, lights of your marijuana's probably become pretty normalized.
And of course kids being kids or young people being
young people that you know, I've always had a view
that they go to the next thing that they're not allowable. Unfortunately,
(17:41):
the next things are getting more and more addictive and harmful,
and I just come back and breaks my heart. You know,
the people I see that have had a family member,
their lives are destroyed. And it's not just the individuals,
their family, their wider family that the social harm is
just is just unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Ald. Do you think it's more accepted now drugs?
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I mean that must be at some level. And of
course if you're mates, colleagues, as you point out, are using,
then in a sense that becomes normalized. So you know,
I yet again another reason for treatment, because you want
people to be hearing those stories of yip that was
part of my life and it's not any longer.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
It was revealed this week that benefit sanctions have risen
by fifty percent since this time last year, alongside a
step steep rising people on benefits. I should do benefit
sanctions work, or, as the Green say, does it just
cause more harm?
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yeah? I think they probably don't work. It might make us,
you know, if we're concerned that some people are getting
an easy ride, they might address that. But how we
feel about these things, I don't think there's any evidence
that they work. The main thing that determines how many
people are on benefits are the economic cycle. And you know,
(19:03):
it seems like a lot of these unemployment is going up.
I've heard some estimates that may get to five percent,
which will be pretty loud to people. Mike.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I mean, I thought we were going to get people
off the benefits, and you know, now, you know, are
you slightly concerned about the growth of numbers. I got
a hell of a fright when I saw that come up,
because the Coalition was the government that was going to
get people off the benefits.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Yeah, you're right now, And you know, in the perfect
will would have no one, no one that's on the
job secret sector. But to be honest, the numbers are
up in a large part due to the economic shambles
that we inherited from the previous government. Because you know,
the Reserve Bank, which that drive inflation. The Reserve Bank
had to lift interest rates, which put so many pressures
(19:46):
on our employers. That was inevitable that as those interest
rates went up, unemployment was going to go up. So,
I mean, we are focused how do we fix that.
It's not going to be there's no metric button, Nick.
It is about focusing on doing everything we possibly can
to get inflation bank in the box, which will bring
interest rates down, which will allow our economy to recover
(20:09):
and grow, which will provide more jobs. But in terms
of the sanctions, lo we make no excuses about about
requiring you know, certain things obligations or that you must meet,
you know when you're when you're receiving the benefit, Mike,
how much.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
More pain do we have to go through before it's
going to suddenly start coming right? I mean, you know,
you know the country feels like it's on its knees.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Yeah, Look that is right, Nick. And there's a lot
of streets out there, and I hear it to all
our businesses that I visit all the self imployed. There's
a significant amount of streets and it is going to
take a little bit of time in terms of when
it's going to come right. It would be a very
brave man to give you a date then. But yeah, look,
it's as I think I said on the show last week,
(20:55):
as interest rates come down, that will give people confidence.
And confidence is a wonderful thing because that will people
will make decisions When they're confident. They may buy a
new car, they may put another room on the house,
they might buy buy house, they may start up a
new business which will create growth and employment.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
So just had an explanation of how the economic cycle
is what's causing benefit numbers, and then we persist in
having these sanctions which which can be cruel and perhaps
performative if you don't really believe that they're the main
influence on what's driving the number of people getting on
and off benefit. You know what's kind of ironic. It
was just yesterday that louise Eupstin forgot to come to
(21:35):
the House in order to pass her own her own bill.
And just imagine if you're a person on the benefit,
you saw that your minister just had to say sorry,
but you know she didn't lose any of her pay
or income.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Of course she'd made a natural views you, you're joined
a pretty long bowt there, I think, Asia, Well, it's
just to do with the price of person.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Got me laughing, got me laughing. If you if you're
going to cut the beneficiaries for not picking up the phone,
you think you'd go to Parliament but you were supposed
to present a bill. You ever got an answer that way?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Bike These things I'm sure happen from time to time.
But look, I come back to the numbers. It is
a pretty lumpy number, and it is, as I say,
has driven a large part to the economy that we
inherit it. And so we've just got to maintain our
focus on doing every single possible thing we can to
(22:30):
getting their getting inflation down, interest rates are and also
to providing the support those on job seeker need from
time to time, and we've got a very big emphasis on.
Also to anyone that is looking to employ, I would
absolutely encourage them to contact NESC because there's a lot
of wonderful people there for unforeseen circumstances currently don't have
(22:54):
a job. Certainly do not discount of it encourage people
to notify them that they're actively looking for somebody.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Thank you very much, Mike. And I would suggest that
you go past Louise Ups and show her on a
cell phone how to put the meetings pardon it, so
she knows what find she's got to be somewhere. I
think that would be a good idea. I think that's
quite a good You were very good with that one.
I'll give you that one. I said, thank you very
much Ashavira for joining us this morning in the studio.
And National's wimp Mike butter Wreck. Thank you both. I
(23:25):
have a wonderful day. It looks like that Parliament's a
theater this week. I'm really enjoying the little snippets I've seen,
especially why any stress code. I think someone should actually
have a chat to them about that. That's my personal crusade.
Twenty six minutes to twelve. Thank you very much, both
of you.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Thanks that's a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Thanks no.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk Said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings news Talk said
Bin can make decision.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Politics Thursday. Just having a little bit of an argument
with the Ishould before we went onto here. I was
just saying, how wonderful winter's beat and she's looking at
me as if I need some help.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
It's been pretty cold at my place.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Oh gosh, put the turn the heat on. This has
been a great winter. Joining us for politics Thursday is
Labour's Health and Wonnington's Issue spokesperson Ishavia. Good morning, Isha,
wedding Neck. You come from Southland. I'm gonna have a
fight with you on this. I mean you come from
You're a Southland girl and you're saying that our winter
has a big perfect this winter.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Yeah, I am, And I bought one of those wodies,
you know, those giant place things with a hood that
I can go around and to keep myself warm this winter.
It's just unfortunately not in the Parliament dress code.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Okay, well, Jesus, someone should talk to Shy. I shouldn't
have said that. Taking the name of the lord's name famous.
Someone should talk to that Mary Party leader if you're
talking about dress standards. I mean he wears a cowboy
hat and pink shirts that are popping at every button
and pants look like they're gonna split when he stands up.
So have you going to dress rest? Dond and someone's
forgotten to mention it to him? National UH and nationals
(01:33):
Wirerappa MP Mike, but good morning, Mike.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Good morning, good morning.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I saw.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
How are you guys? We must be made as soon
as stuff in the way. I think the July has
been incredibly kind of mild.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, I think so too. I shall I think I'm
starting to worry about Isha with that, you know. Anyway,
let's start. There's a report, the report, the dreaded report
from the Royal Commission into Abuse and Care was released
yesterday and the stories of abuse and how it went
on for so long and the numbers are just sickening.
Icehow what did you make of the report?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah? Well, firstly, I just want to acknowledge all of
the survivors of abuse who have played and carried this
truth with them for so long while they weren't believed
by the people around them, all by the government. To
many instances and today, Hope or yesterday I hope acknowledged
(02:28):
their journey and their suffering and is the first really
important step in putting things right. And Nick, for me,
I mean, it's the scale and the fact that it's
been there all along and may still be is still happening,
and that while we continue our day to day, some
(02:51):
people in our community have been carrying this abuse and
suffering for so long. That's I think the big takeaway
for me.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
There were one hundred and thirty eight recommendations Mike in
the report. How many of these do you think the
government will impament?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I'm not sure of that. There's obviously that's going to
take time. But just in terms of as Asha said,
I would also acknowledge all of those survivors and also
those who's contributed to that report. And as you said,
the numbers are staggering, absolutely staggering. I mean they're talking
up to it's estimated one hundred and fifty six thousand
(03:29):
people that may have been abused in state and or
faith based care. It is just appalling. And in the
house yesterday it was incredibly poignant moment. The gallery was
charged with emotions they should understand and you know, the
people I've talked to that have read the report and
it's close to three thousand pages, you know, you can
see it and hear it in their voice. They're deeply
(03:51):
moved and impact and so you can only imagine impacts
on those that have actually lived it. They've suffered through it,
and appallingly they were ignored, their voices were ignored.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
And of course no governments can put their hand up
and say it wasn't under our watch. Everyone you know,
for the last sixty years, seventy years have been involved.
But I must admit, and I thought Erica Stranford yesterday
was I don't know, she just felt like a minister
that was in charge and was going to do the
(04:21):
right thing. Do you think you'll see anything out of
the site.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah. I was encouraged by the government statements about how
they appear to be proactively gripping this up and stepping
forward now to take on the recommendations, and so I'm
pleased that our party also offered to support that effort.
And as Chris Hitkins said yesterday, this is bigger than politics.
(04:48):
We have to get this right. And you know, I
see that there's some conversation starting about whether there's a
bipartisan approach to the response, and I'm sure we'll play
our part in that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That's music to my ears. If you can everyone can
work together, it'll be a hell of a lot easier
transition to to getting some sort of success. What do
you might think? And I know it's early, and I
know that you're going to tell me it's too early
today that well, what do you think that redress should
look like?
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Again the kind exactly you said? I mean, I think
it's far too early, But I would have certainly agreed
with Asha. You know, we are united across all of
Parliament to do the right thing, and you know because
quite frankly, we owe those survivors a response that's delivered
with respect and the dignity that it actually deserves.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Wish how much of an impact will this report have
on public trust in these organizations that are looking after
our most vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Well, what I reflect is that probably the impact on
public trust has already been there because large numbers of
our community have been living with this abuse. And so
when I think back to times where maybe trust has
been challenged, I think, well, of course, so I think
(06:07):
back to the Parliament protest and I think, well, there
were a group of people there who didn't trust government.
And maybe part of the explanation is because authority in
people's lives hasn't always been used legitimately, fairly and cateringly
in our country. So you know, that's what I take
away is this has been there for some time, far
(06:30):
too long, and we have to start by putting this right.
And you know, the trust and government will be judged
by how well we do this.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Mike, do you think people will trust the government to
do the right thing?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
I would hope so, Nick, And as I tell you,
but you've just sit there and think of those eye
watering numbers. You know, a quarter of a million people
is completely understandable that they would have lost faith within
the government and system and those that were charged was
actually looking after them and providing that care. So we've
got a big job to turn around and make sure
(07:04):
that that can never ever happen.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
It's been a big week for Health New Zealand. The
government this week sacked what was left of the board
only three members I think were left, and appointed a commissioner.
After the Health Minute to Shane Ritti said the government's
department was spending one hundred and thirty million dollars over
and above its budget each month, and he laid the
blame strongly at the feet of the last government. Is
(07:28):
the issue as bad as the government has said it to.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Be, well, I think we need to dig into that
a little bit and work through the financial information as
it becomes public to check in fact that is the case.
But even if we take that on face face value,
the government has the government should have options about how
(07:51):
it addresses cost overruns at Fattura, and I would think
that embarking on a one point four billion dollar cost
cutting exercise, we just need a little bit more information
before we assume that that's the right thing to do.
There was a lot of spin coming out from the
podium on Monday, some of it blatantly ridiculous, like the
(08:14):
idea that a financial problem that they said that appeared
in the Defatora books in March could be put down
to the last government and what they described as things
in back office bureaucracy that had happened since twenty eighteen.
How on earth could that turn up in your books
in March. That's ridiculous, Mike.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Much of the fault of the last has been put
on the last government with us weight. He said much
of it was because of the last government's health reforms.
A lot of us think that the health reforms are
a good idea. Does your government still think they're a
good idea?
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Look, it's about in terms of the funding. I guess
I'll start with it. You know, we've put in record
amounts of funding, sixteen point seven billion. I think it is.
But I would also make the point that success isn't
defined by how much you spend six fine by the
outcomes you achieve, and the outcomes at the moment a
great barnt rate. The health sector is in a bit
of a shambles. And I think about when we talk
(09:14):
about back office in front room and getting the funding
to where it needs to go, and the diagram or
I talk about with people, is it just imagine a triangle.
We want something where you tip in the funding at
the top and it flows down to the bottom unimpeded
to the people providing the service and the people that
need the service. What we've actually got, because there's been
two and a half thousand back office star added, we've
(09:38):
got fourteen extra layers of bureaucracy. What we've actually got
is instead of a triangle, we've got an outglass, We've
this balloon at the top. We've got a whole lot
of clipboards in the bottleneck, actually impeding the flow of
that funding down to where it actually needs to go.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah. Look, I won't ask you to prove that about
the fourteen layers of management, Mike, because I think you
might struggle. But I do want to go back to
these matters of funding. Just to say that the health
funding is the biggest it's ever been is a rarely
meaningless statement. Inflation and population growth in the last year
means that, to Fatuwora does need more. And they told
(10:17):
us that at Select Committee. They said that the amount
that was estimated before the election was not enough for
them to be able to meet their costs in the
coming year. And that yet the government knew that. They
told us in Select Committee in March. So I assume
the government knew in March, and yet the government didn't
adjust the amount of plan to put into the health system.
So the government had choices and it chose to fund
(10:39):
tax cuts for landlords rather than addressing the cost pressures
in the health system. And the other thing that's come
through is that CE of Health New Zealand two days
ago said that the main cost going up in Health
New Zealand was nursing costs. That's actually what's gone up recently. Well,
if you put cast your mind back to last winter,
what we needed desperately were more nurses. So I don't
(11:00):
think that it's a I don't yet see evidence of
the crisis that the government has tried to spin and
say that we're in.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
How do we know there is a crisis?
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Mote.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Look, I hear it when I talk to the people
within the health sector, within the wire ePRO Electra and
some of the things like they just the structure is lost.
They don't know who to talk to. But I come
back to when we're talking about funding. Yes, it is
a record amount, but as I say, success isn't defined
by how much you spend. It's actually about the outcomes
(11:31):
that you achieve. And so it's about getting those efficiencies,
getting the financial balance, the governance and the management right
so that that funding does flow down to where it
needs to get to, which is the people providing and
needing health interventions.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
And the shame of the thing is is that if
you do talk to people on the front line. They'll
tell you that there's a hiring freezon in public hospitals.
So this whole idea that the government is going after
the back office when really they're stopping nurses from being hired.
New graduate nurses can't come on. We know that booking
clerks can't get their maternity leave covered. Is not enough
(12:06):
doctors and nurses to open the surgical hospital on the
North Shore. You know, I think the government's whole story
doesn't add up here, and this seems like political spin
to justify cost cutting in the health system.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
To be honest, ive show, I think the two and
a half thousand people in the back office stuff, I
think people would probably prefer toppers and nurses instead of
back office.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Can either of you tell me, Can either of you
tell me absolutely if we've now got enough nurses in
New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah. So the way that we've looked at that traditionally
is a measure it's called CCDM where they look at
the number of nurses on each ward. I understand that
those measurements are better forty FA to WARA now, so
they are better stuffed, But I don't think we're quite
at the level where on those agreed measurements that the
(12:54):
Union's Antifa to War are signed up to. I don't
think anyone would say that we're at one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yet, Mike, do you know?
Speaker 4 (13:00):
No, look at off the top of my head neck.
I don't know. I do know that the numbers are
improving and improvinglatively quickly, and so yeah, I just don't
have those specific numbers for you.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well into morning's political our, well three quarters of an hour,
half an hour. Gosh, sorry, I should and I I
should ask me a question. I should tell me the
question you asked me.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I asked you if you thought how you thought Kamala
Harris would do in the US elections.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
And what did I say?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Well, you said you thought you'd take it.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, I've called it early. I've called it early. I've
got it. I think I'm the first broadcast that I
called it early. I don't I should, do you agree
with me?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah? Well, I reckon it's now fifty to fifty is
it was looking very bad for the Democrats and now
a lot more momentum and enthusiasm. And I think on
the left of politics, if you do go with bold
choices for your leadership, and this will be a historic event.
If a woman is elected in the US, then you
do mobilize a lot of enthusiasm from your supporters.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Micha, I've got to ask you too, now that I've
it's asked this question. Nothing to do with me. She
just threw it to be in the ad break. We've
got your side.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
I actually think it's going to be incredibly close close,
and obviously change of leadership, you know, it's going to
change things quite dramatically, and so yeah, I mean it's
going to be fascinating to watch to see what happens.
But I think it will be incredibly close.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I'm calling it. I'm going bold. I like to go
hard and go early, and I've gone bold. I'm going
to She's going to take it out. We've talked on
the show about this week about drug harm and harm
from drugs cost US about twenty million a week. And
while most of it's from Harmer's calls from meth and phetamine,
harms from the like of MDMA and cocaine is rising
to cocaine's on the big rise. Mike. What's the government
(14:49):
doing to crack down on illicted drugs?
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think Tuesday and foremost Mick I would agree. I
think back to when I was a young fellaw and
this's a few decades ago now, just the increase in
those the types of drugs and the harmful drugs, and
I think about p for example. We see that in
our communities and it is an obvious challenge. It's sexually
destroying people's fami, these lives and destroying communities. So look,
(15:14):
there is a seat. I think it's something like, you know,
the games are a large contributor to that, and it's
something like about the gangs cause about twenty five percent
of all harm from drug offenses or drugs despite being
about they're about a quarter of one percent of the population.
So that is about proactively going out and trying to
target some of those some of those groups of people
(15:36):
that we know are dealing with drugs.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Ahicha, How do we solve this problem? Do we need
to focus it more on a health response rather than
a criminal one. I know that's been Labour's thing from
a few years ago.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Well, we certainly need a balance. And on the enforcement side,
I think this is the wrong time to be making
cuts at customs for example. But certainly you know we
have a drug problem because the demand for it exists
in our community, and unless we also offer people expanded
options for treatment, then will continue to struggle. And one
(16:10):
of the programs that I was lucky to visit as
Minister of Health was a great program called Tiata Oranger,
and it just seems absolutely life changing. So people who
are picked up by the cops get offered health treatment.
Often that is provided in the community by peer support workers,
(16:31):
some of whom are former users and dealers themselves. And
a very moving story I heard that one of those
peer support workers got up and said, you know, I
used to be the dealer in this town and I
thought to turn my life has been a waste, she said,
and the best thing I can do to make good
on that is to help other people come off drugs.
(16:53):
And I was just blown away by the success that
program was making as a result of the work of
people like her.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Mike, I've been thinking about this lately because obviously I'm
in the hospitality industry and drugs are a very prevalent
part of that. Do you think as a society, and
especially with young people that are approach to drugs are different.
Do we accept drugs a hell of a lot more
than we used to.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
That's a pretty complicated one, darn pack.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Look as a father of four young adults, now you
know that would always be one of my biggest fears
that your kids go down that drug pathway. I mean,
we're very fortunate they haven't, but you're right. I think
you know, lights of your marijuana's probably become pretty normalized.
And of course kids being kids or young people being
young people that you know, I've always had a view
that they go to the next thing that they're not allowable. Unfortunately,
(17:41):
the next things are getting more and more addictive and harmful,
and I just come back and breaks my heart. You know,
the people I see that have had a family member,
their lives are destroyed. And it's not just the individuals,
their family, their wider family that the social harm is
just is just unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Ald. Do you think it's more accepted now drugs?
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I mean that must be at some level. And of
course if you're mates, colleagues, as you point out, are using,
then in a sense that becomes normalized. So you know,
I yet again another reason for treatment, because you want
people to be hearing those stories of yip that was
part of my life and it's not any longer.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
It was revealed this week that benefit sanctions have risen
by fifty percent since this time last year, alongside a
step steep rising people on benefits. I should do benefit
sanctions work, or, as the Green say, does it just
cause more harm?
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yeah? I think they probably don't work. It might make us,
you know, if we're concerned that some people are getting
an easy ride, they might address that. But how we
feel about these things, I don't think there's any evidence
that they work. The main thing that determines how many
people are on benefits are the economic cycle. And you know,
(19:03):
it seems like a lot of these unemployment is going up.
I've heard some estimates that may get to five percent,
which will be pretty loud to people. Mike.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I mean, I thought we were going to get people
off the benefits, and you know, now, you know, are
you slightly concerned about the growth of numbers. I got
a hell of a fright when I saw that come up,
because the Coalition was the government that was going to
get people off the benefits.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Yeah, you're right now, And you know, in the perfect
will would have no one, no one that's on the
job secret sector. But to be honest, the numbers are
up in a large part due to the economic shambles
that we inherited from the previous government. Because you know,
the Reserve Bank, which that drive inflation. The Reserve Bank
had to lift interest rates, which put so many pressures
(19:46):
on our employers. That was inevitable that as those interest
rates went up, unemployment was going to go up. So,
I mean, we are focused how do we fix that.
It's not going to be there's no metric button, Nick.
It is about focusing on doing everything we possibly can
to get inflation bank in the box, which will bring
interest rates down, which will allow our economy to recover
(20:09):
and grow, which will provide more jobs. But in terms
of the sanctions, lo we make no excuses about about
requiring you know, certain things obligations or that you must meet,
you know when you're when you're receiving the benefit, Mike,
how much.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
More pain do we have to go through before it's
going to suddenly start coming right? I mean, you know,
you know the country feels like it's on its knees.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Yeah, Look that is right, Nick. And there's a lot
of streets out there, and I hear it to all
our businesses that I visit all the self imployed. There's
a significant amount of streets and it is going to
take a little bit of time in terms of when
it's going to come right. It would be a very
brave man to give you a date then. But yeah, look,
it's as I think I said on the show last week,
(20:55):
as interest rates come down, that will give people confidence.
And confidence is a wonderful thing because that will people
will make decisions When they're confident. They may buy a
new car, they may put another room on the house,
they might buy buy house, they may start up a
new business which will create growth and employment.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
So just had an explanation of how the economic cycle
is what's causing benefit numbers, and then we persist in
having these sanctions which which can be cruel and perhaps
performative if you don't really believe that they're the main
influence on what's driving the number of people getting on
and off benefit. You know what's kind of ironic. It
was just yesterday that louise Eupstin forgot to come to
(21:35):
the House in order to pass her own her own bill.
And just imagine if you're a person on the benefit,
you saw that your minister just had to say sorry,
but you know she didn't lose any of her pay
or income.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Of course she'd made a natural views you, you're joined
a pretty long bowt there, I think, Asia, Well, it's
just to do with the price of person.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Got me laughing, got me laughing. If you if you're
going to cut the beneficiaries for not picking up the phone,
you think you'd go to Parliament but you were supposed
to present a bill. You ever got an answer that way?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Bike These things I'm sure happen from time to time.
But look, I come back to the numbers. It is
a pretty lumpy number, and it is, as I say,
has driven a large part to the economy that we
inherit it. And so we've just got to maintain our
focus on doing every single possible thing we can to
(22:30):
getting their getting inflation down, interest rates are and also
to providing the support those on job seeker need from
time to time, and we've got a very big emphasis on.
Also to anyone that is looking to employ, I would
absolutely encourage them to contact NESC because there's a lot
of wonderful people there for unforeseen circumstances currently don't have
(22:54):
a job. Certainly do not discount of it encourage people
to notify them that they're actively looking for somebody.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Thank you very much, Mike. And I would suggest that
you go past Louise Ups and show her on a
cell phone how to put the meetings pardon it, so
she knows what find she's got to be somewhere. I
think that would be a good idea. I think that's
quite a good You were very good with that one.
I'll give you that one. I said, thank you very
much Ashavira for joining us this morning in the studio.
And National's wimp Mike butter Wreck. Thank you both. I
(23:25):
have a wonderful day. It looks like that Parliament's a
theater this week. I'm really enjoying the little snippets I've seen,
especially why any stress code. I think someone should actually
have a chat to them about that. That's my personal crusade.
Twenty six minutes to twelve. Thank you very much, both
of you.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Thanks that's a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Thanks no.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.