August 18, 2024 • 31 mins
The number of tourists visiting the country is still roughly 17% below pre-Covid levels, so how long until it bounces back?
And how important are both corporate and public events for the Wellington economy - and is Wellington in store for any big international music acts over summer?
Those were the questions for the business panel this week, with Sky Stadium CEO Warrick Dent and Te Papa's marketing and communications director Kate Camp.
The pair also discussed the impact of last week's official cash rate cut, congestion charging and a big drop in Wellingtonians using the region's train system.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Said b.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Your inside word on all things business in the Capitol
with Quinovac, better Systems, better reporting, better call, quinnobec oh
eight hundred, quinovec.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Let's get down. Let's get down, characters, you've had a
million million nights just like.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Joining us for the business panel this week is Sky
Stadium Chief Executive Warrck Dean. Good morning, Warrant, Good things.
How are you doing? You're good? Got over the All
Black game and got over all that stuff. You're on
a hide into nothing, will you? You've got a bit
of a bad rip with the All Black. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, I think the mat we would like them to
have better performances at Sky's Stadium. It would be nice
to have a win, but no, it was a great
night for those who did come out and a really
good match. And I think it just shows the competitiveness
of world rugby and the fact that Argentina perhaps didn't
get the kind of crab we wanted. But they are
a really good time, really good team. Yeah, and it
was a great game of rugby. You're right in the
(01:10):
stadium is fantastic. We can hardly blame the stadium if
the All Blacks can't make their tackles or make bad passes,
can we? And to Papa's marketing and communications director Kate Clam, Good.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Morning, Kate.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Nice to see you.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
You're in the newser bit at the moment too.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
Yeah. Well, we introduced a charge for our overseas visitors.
Our keywi's come for free, but we introduced a charge
last week. We announced it and it's been really interesting
to see the feedback.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Okay, we'll talk about that later in the in the hour.
You've also now to Papa that is you're not you personally,
but you'll be part of the team looking after Taquina
and the first reports that came out of Taquina. I
think this last time I saw you, was it opening
a Tikeina, wasn't it?
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Yeah, the numbers aren't as good as what we expected.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
Well, I think we hit the budget and the levels
that we were expecting in that first year in operation.
I mean it is a bit of an unknown. We're
only the second convention center to open a New Zealand
on time and on budget. Hastened to add not not
cast andy aspersions on any other projects, but that was
quite quite a whin I think for Wellington, and you know,
we've had some huge meetings in there, getting a good
client base and good customer feedback. So from our perspective,
(02:18):
it is going well. I think what we're all seeing
is that the world has changed a lot in the
last five years, and the environment for conventions has changed,
like the environment for a lot of things has.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Okay, let's start this segment talking about international tourism. Waurick,
I want to start by asking you about tourism. We
learned last week that the international tourism numbers are still
down about seventeen percent on pre COVID levels, and it's
probably more important than Wellington than ever tourism, that is
because of local spending. It stills down. It's still down.
(02:50):
How important is tourism to Wellington And when do you
think it's going to recover? What's your vibe? I mean
you've got a background in getting people to Welling and
so people you know more than most. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think international tourism is important to the whole country.
It's still our second biggest sexport driver. It's important to Wellington.
I think if you look at air capacity is still
down by about fifteen fourteen percent on what it was
pre COVID, so as that increases the capacity to get
tourists will be here. I think one of the markets
that hasn't bounced back as quickly as others is obviously China.
(03:21):
I think it's running at fifty to fifty five percent
of what it was, and over time that market will
come back. There are some positive signs. I think if
you look at for Wellington in particular with Quantus with
his introduction of the Brisbane route, it's increased capacity with
Melbourne over summer. So I think over time we will
see those air capacities increase and hopefully we'll see does
it surprise you that Quantus are now bringing more international
(03:43):
people into Wellington than Air New Zealk I think given
the importance of the Australian market to Wellington and New Zealand,
and Quantus is the dominant airline in Australia. I mean
their customer base in Australia is enormous, so I think
it's really important for us to connect with Quantus. I
think they are a really good airline for Wellington and
for New Zealand because they do drive Australians here.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
So coming to you. Okay, what a Wellington draw, Wellington event,
places like yourself, to Papa or places that tourists go to.
What do they have to do more now to attract
the numbers and what are the numbers like it to Papa?
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Well, the numbers over the last year at to Papa
have actually been really good. We were up twelve percent
on the previous financial year, in a bit higher than
forecast and so we had one point two three million
over the previous financial years, so you know, it's really
really good numbers. Half of those are internationals. I think
we did see a little bit of a soft month
over June July period over winter here, and yeah, it's
(04:40):
interesting to explore what that is. You could see nationwide tourism,
domestic tourism card spending was a little bit down. You know.
I think there's the factors that we're all aware of
that are probably impacting on people being a bit more
careful with how they spend their discretionary leisure money. So
I would say the year picture was actually pretty rosy
for us, but we can see some little impacts over
(05:02):
this winter and then in terms of what we can
do to attract people. I mean, I sort of feel
a little bit torn because to Papa is incredibly fortunate
in the brand awareness and love that we have. Like
we do it annual survey within New Zealand and quite
often new people come into the survey company and they
say to us, O, sorry, we've had to rerun your
numbers because there's obviously something wrong with the data because
(05:24):
it shows such incredible high brand awareness and love for
you of like Coca Cola type levels. You know, this
is crazy and it's just that, you know, New Zealand
embraced to Papa when it opened and it's still got
that high awareness. So we have like ninety one percent
awareness of to Papa when you survey in New Zealanders.
So you know, in terms of attracting people, I think
(05:44):
for us, it's just telling the story of what's there
and what's there for free for those kiwis. In terms
of attracting the international visitors, that's going to be a
really cool new opportunity for us with the charger. Our
feedback from Tourism New Zealand for example, and Tourism Industry
Association is they think that we have the potential not
only to maintain that international but to grow it because
(06:04):
once you've got a ticketed, that becomes something that's on
all those ticketed planning sites that people are going to
when they're planning their travel. You know, your trip advisors
and your equivalents of that in Asia and so on.
So we actually think that by implementing a charge, it
might sound counterintuitive, but we think it might actually help
increase that international market.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Warwick looking at us internally, looking at our domestic tourism.
See I classify an all black game as the Mets
domestic tourism. I mean, like you, I've got a lot
of experience in doing events in the city when there's
big draw cards and a lot of those people come
from out of town. The fact that Wellington's sort of
losing its shine of bit and it is we've got
(06:48):
to be do you reckon that hurts you? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I still think that events are a good driver of
domestic visitation for Wellington and they have been for a
long time. If you look at ticket sale data across
not only at the stadium but other venues across the city. No,
there's always strong visitation from outside of Wellington.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Was there for the Argentina test it was? There was
still some that was down a little bit.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I think it probably showed a little bit that other
parts of the country are hurting a little bit as well,
especially that drive range sort of Taalpo South. That probably
down a little bit on what you'd normally expect now, because.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
That's what I was trying to get at. I mean,
that was the big you know, well, this is how
good would it be to have a weekend in Wellington.
They've got all these bars and clubs and stuff all
down Courtney Place. I can go to the All Black
game on Saturday. This is a big attraction. But if
you start dwindling that down, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I think if you look at Argentina versus or the
All Blacks, you know, over time around twenty five thousand
is the average crowd that that fixture is attracted across
the country. So the numbers were actually probably on par
with what they have been pre We just expected more.
I think, no, we always put something on you expect
it to sell out. There's an expectation that the All
Blacks sell out. It's always not quite reality. I think
(07:57):
when we look at September with the Blislow Cup, that
last week in September, I think, no, a full stadium
for that is the opening weekend of well It's going
to be a eaight weekend for Wellington and it will
both both those events, both the Blood'slow Cup and Well
will attract visitors.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Do we know how well Well? That sounds a bit weird.
Do we know how well well Well is selling? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I speaking to their CEO a couple of weeks ago,
they're quite happy with with our with ticket sales. It's
selling pretty well, especially that opening weekend. The weekends do
are the ones that drive that visitation and then the
weekday is more Wellington visit Wellington audience. But they're quite
happy with where they're at. All back tickets are tracking
well for the Blood's Low Cup. So yeah, I think
whilst we'd love to have a full statium every time,
(08:39):
if we look at what happened with the Phoenix semi
final with thirty two thousand there, I think no people
are coming to things. They've probably been a little bit
selective about what they are coming to. But to your
point in the Hurricanes and the Hurricanes is really good.
So but to your point that events are that conversion layer.
Now you talk about brand A winners is really high.
It's that conversion layer to get new Zella's to go. Actually,
(09:01):
I'm going to go to Wellington for the weekend. I'm
going to enjoy everything Wellington's got. I'm going to throw
an event in as well. And the event experience here
is still really good. Our venues are in the middle
of town, accommodations in the middletown. We have got great
restaurants and bars. So in terms of an experience for people,
it's a good weekend and we'd expect to see that
whilst the economy is it's hard work for people at
(09:22):
the moment and they are being a little bit selective
about their spend. We think in the medium term and
long term that events will play an important part for
domestic tourism.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Kate, I've got to go to a break, but I
just want to quickly ask you, what do you think
we need to do to get that sort of domestic
tourism back up? Making Wellington the place that used to
be like the coffee. You know, it used to be everything,
didn't it, Papa, the stadium, coffee, food, it was everything.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
Yeah. I think that it's still there, it's still buzzing.
I think that just the patterns have changed. A little bit.
Maybe it's your Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, that's the party night
now because of the more people working from home. I
don't know. I'm stead of torn between wanting to make
changes but also thinking I never want to talk Wellington down,
and to me, Wellington is still really he placed to
go out on well I.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Hope you're right, it doesn't quite feel like that. You
both both must realize that you both work in the
middle of town. You wander through town. You know it
doesn't have the buzz of three or four ye pre
covid does it.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
No, But it's not necessarily just a Wellington issue. No,
it's a worldwide issue for cities, and those patterns are changing,
and I think we just need to be able to adapt.
Still have no great attractions and to Papa is still
in New Zealand's number one tourism destination, both for domestic
tourism and international tourism. Keep driving those events and keep
investing in things that we know that we'll drive people
(10:40):
to the CBD now and get the buzz back by
talking it up. So we should be doing more to
talk it up. Let's talk a little bit about the economy. Generally,
things are still pretty painful in Wellington, but the ocr
was cut by twenty four five basis points last week,
marking the beginning of the long awaited relief. It feels
like it was just everyone just went just a sigh
(11:03):
of relief. Kate, what do you think this does for business?
What do you think this does? Does it give you hope?
Does it change perceptions of people's mind?
Speaker 5 (11:14):
It was a little bit of a tricky one from
it to PAPA perspective, because of course we're a free venue,
so a lot of our visitors are possibly choosing us
at other times when maybe the financial pressure is on,
So it's a little bit light with t Papa. People
come if the weather's bad, they also come off the
weather's good to get out of the sun. So so
for us, it's kind of we're in a mixed bag,
(11:34):
offering some paid experiences but a lot of free experiences.
So I'm not sure our our take on what the
impact on the markets would be the same as as
everyone else out there. But I do think, you know,
when I look back to the pre COVID period and
everything that we've been through, I feel like New Zealand
has recovered probably a lot better than we thought we
(11:54):
were going to you know, when we look at that
seventeen percent down on international tourists since before COVID, I mean, god,
there was a time there in the middle of that
where I thought that would have been fifty percent down
or you know, will people ever be coming to New
Zealand again? So, without wanting to be too polyanna about it,
I feel like, you know, perhaps we should give ourselves
a little bit more credit for having come through things
(12:15):
tourism wise and actually pretty good.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Shame what about people that you work with. I mean,
obviously it's a pretty big organization. There'll be a lot
of people that are working with you that are doing
it a little bit tougher with paying a couple of
hundred or three hundred dollars more a week in their mortgages.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Oh absolutely, And you know we all know. I mean,
I'm a communications person worked in Wellington my whole career,
so I've got a lot and a lot of friends
in the public sector communications world. And of course that
always rolls that people enjoy cutting when changes come to
government departments. So yeah, you know, it's not an easy
time for people. I think that you know, that's reflected
(12:51):
in the spending patterns, and people are making careful choices
about what they spend their money on, especially that you know,
when they've got a choice, Like Warwick was saying, you know,
maybe it's the travel, Maybe the petrols a little bit
too much to drive down from Pami to Wellington for
something that you might have done before.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
So yeah, it's not easy, you warrick. This affects your
bottom line straight away, because you know Kate's exactly right.
Would are you going to go to the rugby on
Friday night and watch the lines or you're going to
watch it at home because you don't want to spend
the fifty dollars or the eighty dollars. I mean, it's
right off your bottom line, isn't it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I think that that sigh of relief that the OCR
has finally been cut is real. I'm not sure it's
going to have an immediate impact on spending patterns, but
if we see that continue over the next few Reserve
Bank meetings and there is a continued drop in the
OCR and that then actually impacts people's you know, what's
actually in their wallet.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
It doesn't do it mentally, doesn't it do it? Mentally?
You say suddenly you know, I mean TV wandered this
great segment where it dropped twenty five points, and you
have a five hundred thousand dollars mortgage, which is like
at the lower end of average. You suddenly got seventy
five dollars in your back pocket. That's a couple to
the rugby on Friday night. Yeah, and they all have
that impact.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And I think we're sort of looking at it from
our perspective selling tickets over the next twelve months, that
it is going to get easy to sell those tickets
because people will have that discretionary spend. At the moment,
people's discrisinary spend is really really tight. But you're right,
just that feeling that actually we might have reached name,
that we might have reached the place where we're actually
going to start actually seeing improvements is really important just
(14:28):
from a confidence point of view, from business confidence, for
individual's confidence to think, okay, we've got through that. We
continue to see rate cuts, we see that reflected in
our mortgage. For a lot of people in particular, then
you will have more discretionary income and then you can
start looking at events or going out for dinner or
going to a bar and actually think, actually, yeah, I'm
actually going to treat myself. I'm going to do that.
(14:49):
We're going to go to the rugby or we're going
to go to the football. We're going to go to
a gallery. We're going to go out for dinner, which
we haven't done for a while because we've been a
bit of tight on money. I think we will see
that come, especially if you start looking at summer, which
is always an uplift for hospitality. I'm sure hospitality businesses
are looking forward to summer potentially people having a more money.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
And I think we're also looking forward to, like to
Papa and Sky Stadium being full, you know, because we
feed off that. Hospitality in Wellington feeds off the stadium
being full and lots of people going to Tapapa and
then wandering out from to Papa and wandering down the
road and having lunch or going somewhere and staying somewhere
doing stuff. So I think that we're I think we're
(15:27):
all in it together as a city, aren't we. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:30):
And I mean we had our Dinosaurs exhibition over last summer,
you know, that was that was a big blockbuster. That
was our first big sort of family show since in
the post COVID era and that did you know one
hundred thousand plus visitors, which is really really good in
the current environment. So yeah, we know that those major events,
you know, to PAPA style, which is these blockbuster shows
that we can bring in that no one else can do.
(15:51):
We know that they are so good for Wellington. I
mean we did a we got Burl to do some
independent analysis on what Tapapa's contribution is to the Wellington
economy and prior to COVID it was three h four
million average GDP into the Wellington economy from to pup us.
So you know, our visitor numbers have ticked back up
close to where they were before COVID, so I'd say
(16:12):
that contribution is in the same territory. So you know,
there's not that many single destinations in New Zealand that
can claim that kind of impact on our bottom line.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
And also, I mean from a hospitality point of view,
full house at sky Stadium always means that you're going
to have a decent night, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And we're really mindful of that. I mean, we're out
there in the market trying to attract events and then
that's partly that is our bottom line. But we're also
pity rock concerts coming up. We're working on them. Yeah,
so there is there's a potential. We've got potential concerts
in the pipeline at the moment. Again, not going to
lead it out, not going to leak it out, no, no,
but when they come you were the first to know.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Nick.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Thanks, But but we do know that. I mean ACDC
and stuff like that's big for the city, huge for
the city. Anything that flew in and you saw it
with the food fighters this year, you saw it with
the Edge here in last year, those big concerts. Again,
it's a confidence things. But you bring thirty forty forty
five thousand people into the CBD, everyone benefits from it.
And we're conscious have been a good part of the community.
(17:11):
We know that businesses around the community succeed off the
back of events and us bringing people in and that
is very we're very aware of that when we're out
there trying to bring events into Wellington. I want to
sort of hone down on you a little bit on
this one, Cake because obviously you've been in the media.
We've talked about this enough on the show. We actually
(17:32):
talked about it three or four months ago and then
talked about it again last week when you actually made
the announcement to Papa is actually going to start charging
thirty five dollars for international visitors based on a trust model, Kate,
Why did Papa decide to go ahead with us?
Speaker 5 (17:49):
We've considered it quite a few times over the years,
and people in Wellington will know that it's been looked
at before. I think that you know, everything that we've
just been talking about about the cost pressures on everyone
very much applied to Papa. You know, the last time
you opened your gas bill and your power bill and
your insurance bill. Then times that by building the size
of six rugby fields, and you'll know that to Papa's
(18:09):
facing those increasing costs.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Isn't it paid for by our tax by it.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
We're partly funded by government, so we get forty four
million from government a year. We raise at least thirty
million a year from our own commercial revenue. So it's
always been like that since to Papa opened. It was
expected to be financially and commercially positive as an organization
and we're really proud that we're able to do that,
and that's something that you know, this is another part
(18:34):
of that kind of practical decision. I mean, being free
for New Zealanders is bottom line for us. We've always
been free for New Zealanders. We always will be and
so that leaves us with, you know, some options to consider,
and this is one that we decided the time was right.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
Did you get the call from the new government, the
cardiss And government saying hey, look you're going to start
to look farther ways to raise money. We're not. We're
going to have make cupbacks and we're going to cut
back to does that part of it as well?
Speaker 5 (19:00):
This is very much driven by us. It wasn't driven
externally at all. And in fact Papa didn't have any
reduction in its government funding in the last budget, unlike
a lot of organizations. So this is something that you know,
we've looked at our future and future proof in the
museum and thinking how can we keep creating those experiences
like I was at to papaween Gallipoli opened and that
(19:21):
was an absolute game changer in terms of exhibitions. It's
had over four million visitors. You know, soon the whole
population of New Zealand will have been through it. And
you know, you can't create those amazing experiences. You can't
look after those two million plus collection objects without money.
And that's you know, a simple equation of needing to
do the things that we do for New Zealand and
(19:42):
keep it free for Kiwis because you know, like you say,
they already own it. It's it's their museum, it's their collections.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Will will the numbers drop? Do you think?
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Well, it's really interesting. I mean, we have modeled lots
of different scenarios, but in the end it's a little
bit of a guessing game, isn't it. You know, when
you're going from not charging to charging. But the feedback
that we've had from Tourism New Zealand, the research that
we've done, the feedback from the tourism industry is that
it has the potential actually to grow our international visitor
(20:12):
base and we are pretty optimistic that we'll be able
to maintain it. You know, to Papa is the number
one tourist attraction in New Zealand for internationals. Their satisfaction
is through the roof. Ninety eight percent of them are
satisfied with their visit to Papa. You know, the other
two probably got a cold latte or something in the cafe.
But you know, it's a pretty astronomical levels of satisfaction.
(20:32):
And when you think about that international visitor, this is
a trip of a lifetime. They've come, you know, to
New Zealand. They're here for two or three weeks. They're
spending thousands and thousands of dollars on amazing experiences, whether
they're you know, on the Shotover Jet or they're you know,
going to Hobbiton or whatever. So I think when they
rock up to the doors of the number one attraction
and find that it's thirty five New Zealand dollars, I
(20:53):
don't think that's going to be an issue for them
at all.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Right, Warwick, I've got a center on you. I mean,
we've talked about the disappointment of not selling out the
Test match. There you're talking about concerts. We've got nothing
on the box right now, have we. We've got no big,
big deals coming up. We've got the summer without a
rock concert or a concert, have we all have? I
showing my ignorance here.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
No, we haven't got anything announced and we're continuing to
work very closely with a couple of promoters. There's still
our opportunities for summer. It does seem a short lead time,
But that's probably a change in the dynamic around international touring.
And there was a concert announced in Auckland not that
long ago, that's happening in October. We're confident that we'll
get one or two concerts this summer. We know the
(21:35):
promoters are confident that they'll get it across the line.
It's just a matter of confirming things with artists and
getting those on sale.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Can I just ask you has it become more difficult
trying to sell Wellington as a venue than it was,
say five years ago. Five years ago you put something
on at the sky Stadium and you know you're going
to fill it up. Now the world's shaped, the world's changed.
I'm not putting my attention on you guys, But has
the Wellington appeal dropped.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
No.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
We still gave a really good proportion of people that
go to events and go specially music, The theater, the
arts in Wellington is really really strong and you find
if you put the right event on, people will buy tickets.
It's getting harder for promoters in terms of international touring there,
and we've talked about costs. Costs are prohibitive for people
(22:23):
touring and then you see these mega artists you see
Taylor Swift, they suck a lot of money out of
the market, incrediable when they happen, but that's a lot
of money that's been spent on one artist that perhaps
other artists won't quite get the same pickup. I think
what we will see is for the right event, people
will come out and spend. And I think music is
something that people are still spending on and at a
(22:45):
lower level or smaller level, not lower, a smaller level.
Some of the concerts that have come through the other
venues in Wellington recently have sold really really well, really strong,
and they continue to have a lot of content coming
through and I think music will continue. I think from
Wellington's perspective, we are up with the challenge of Auckland
is a big market. It's easy for promoters to Auckland.
(23:08):
We always got to fight a little bit harder. But
we believe that we've got a great customer base both
here but also we service the lower North Island and
the top of the South Island and that's over a
million people. So in terms of actually scale, we've got
a good sized audience that we can drive and we
do believe that we're still a good market for concerts.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Right the number of passengers on our trains are down
twenty five percent than what they were in twenty nineteen,
with much of it been blamed on the increase. I'm
working from home Warwick. I get so many calls every
time you have a sporting event on or you have
something on and we find that the trains are out
and the buses are being used. Do you have a
(23:49):
good as CEO of the stadium. Do you have a
good relationship with the trains? Do we have a problem
with our trains.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I think the trains are great and I think trendsitive
and Metlink to a really good job operating the trains.
I think there's challenges with the train service at the
moment around the work that needs to be done on
the infrastructure on the rails, and that's just the reality
is that work needs to be done and it tends
to get done on weekends and long weekends. We work
really closely with Metlink to identify those bigger events where
(24:17):
we know that we're going to need the train capacity
and then how we then work with them to make
sure that when we really really need it, the trains
are on. So the all access is a good example.
The trains are fully running the Phoenix Semi Final. If
we have concerts, we work with them.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
I think I quite often get with those events that
you don't have the trains running, nothing to do with you,
But I get it. I mean, I know on the
show every time there'll be ten texts people saying, well,
you know I'm going to I've paid money to go
to this event. I want to get on the train,
get off the train. I don't want to be on
a bus. Yeah, And it is a challenge.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
It is a challenge for everybody.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
I think the work.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Needs to be done and we recognize that. I think
what we do have the advantage of with the stadium
is that the integration with public transport is really really good,
whether it is the bus, the bus hub or the
train station. While we would love trains for all our events,
I think at the moment we are working with the
stake older to make sure that we have trains when
we have those larger events, and sometimes for the smaller events.
(25:11):
You know, there needs to be work on the on
the lines and we can't. We can't get away from that.
I think, no, we can't do work during rush hour.
We can't do it during the week because of commuter
So it's just a matter of making sure that we
try and have trains available when we really need them.
We'd love them all the time, but we're realistic that
this work to be done over the next few years.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
And Kate, you talked about that family experience where they
can come in for free and come in and as
a day trip and come in. I know from my
own experience a lot of that is on the train.
You catch a train into town, walk down to to
Papa along the waterfront. How wonderful, how magnificent. But oh,
by the way, the trains aren't running, you're catching a bus.
The family say, h do that's not that's that's only
(25:50):
half the experience. So it must affect to Papa as well.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
I mean, I absolutely love the trains and are saying
to work before. You know, it's great to be at
the stadium, but it's also great to leave the stadium
and that sense of integration. It's like finally something in
New Zealand that actually works and we've got it right.
You're out of the stadium or the good vibes and
then you're on your train and off you go, say
when it's working, it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
And yes, you said when it's working.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
Yeah, no one ever wants to hear the words replaced
by a bus, and no one ever wants to hear
the words your bus isn't arriving. So you know, it's
a hard it's a hard job being the people in
charge of public transport.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Can they do a bit? I feel for them.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
Oh, I'm sure we can probably all do everything better.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
But I don't know.
Speaker 5 (26:30):
I always feel like in New Zealand we have this
thing of like, oh, this is ridiculous. I've been to
London and train comes every two minutes. I've been to
Sydney and you know, I've been to Melbourne. I've got
a train. Well, there's millions of people living in those cities,
you know.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
We but surely if it's advertised as being a train,
the train should run.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
But we forget that. We are still a pretty small
country with not a huge tax base, trying to support
this infrastructure on a very long, skinny nation. So I
think that, you know, there are reasons why the public
transport in New Zealand isn't quite up to the standard
that it is in you know, Berlin, London and Paris.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Okay, that segueys me very nicely to congestion charging. What
do you both think about congestion talking about London's Paris
and Melbourne. I don't think they've got congestion charging in Melbourne.
Don't think it's far away. I mean it's going to come. Kate,
what are you thinking about congestion charging?
Speaker 5 (27:15):
Well, I am a fan of making the city walkable
and making it bikeable and easy to get around. I
don't know enough about congestion charging and how it would
work to really have a very well thought through view,
But I mean, so much has changed in the city.
I hate to be one of those old people, but
you know, I grew up in Wellington and so much
has changed in the way that we use the city.
(27:36):
City used to be completely dead on the weekend.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
You never came into the city. I mean, I don't know.
I'm not going to try and guess your age, but
when I was young, living in the suburbs, you only
came into Wellington maybe twice a year to a movie
or to an event.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
I came in all the time. I'd get on the
chain from Candala on the javel line come and go
chat up some boys at the pie cart and then
you'd walk up, you know, all the way from there
up to Willis Street to Susie's Coffee lounge. There was
nothing open in between, was absolutely dead. The weekdays were busy,
but the weekends were really quiet, and then it flipped around.
The weekends were always really busy and possible to find
a park, you know. So I think the patterns of
(28:09):
use in Wellington have changed so much that congestion charging
would have to have to think about that. I mean,
the congestion down and the CBD doesn't seem to be
too bad in terms of the found the ghost town
that's there, and yet the parking seems to be really full.
I wonder are more people bring in their car into
town because they're working from home a few days and
they think, oh, it's a bit more affordable to bring
(28:29):
the car. I don't know, other transport people will have
the facts Warwick.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
It won't affect you too much. I've got to go
to a break because it will be only at the
certain times and your events won't be at those certain times. Well,
it'll be at five o'clock at night and eight o'clock
in the morning type thing.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah, and I think. I think if you look at
those examples overseas, whether it's Stockholm or London, what's what's
made congestion charging successful is the provision of really good
public transport. So if we can make sure that the
bus network and the train network is working, it will
work for everyone and we'll see it. We'll see that
change in transport mode. And that's probably the real key
to it is how we make sure that we've got
(29:02):
alternative ways of getting into the CBD.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
Still, Yeah, that's the key, right, Warwick. I'm going to
start with you. You've got a very special guest that's
never been to Wellington before, but as someone that really
means a lot to you, someone who you've got real
deep connection to. You picked them up at Wellington Airport,
say let's go eleven o'clock in the morning. What are
you going to do with them?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah. A lot of my family lives overseas, so I've
actually had this in reality, which is good. So I'll
draw back on a bit of experience. I think No,
getting onto the waterfront, I think no, the harbor of
Wellington has actually something really special. So whether that's the
drive around Evans Bay, but even a walk down the waterfront.
As an international visitor, I think to Papa is really
special and I think I'd hate to think what Wellington
(29:44):
would be without Tapapa. So everyone I've had in the
city loves it, loves loves to paper. Taten's to paper.
You can wander around the streets, go up Cuba Street,
enjoy a bit of shopping, cafe. But the other bit
that I always find with the national visitors is actually
getting over to the wire apper and having a nice
lunch at a vineyard over there. And it's just the
(30:04):
fact that you've got a compact CB two, you've got
a harbor, but you've got really accessible amazing. It just
so that the region's got a lot to offer. Yeah, perfect,
it's a perfect pickup. Come on, Kate, tell me what
you're gonna do.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Well.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
When I leave the airport, I like to go out
the back way out more points, sneak through there and
take them around to Maranui Cafe at Lyle Bay. You know,
it's absolutely stunning. I love the food there, but also
how many places can you eat in a cafe that
looks out right onto the water like that with all
the surfers with planes flying and above, and then obviously
I'm going to bring them to Tipapa. They have to
see everything that's there. Take them into the shop because
(30:38):
you know they can buy lots of amazing New Zealand
artworks in there, and that's something people love to take home.
And then for me personally, because I'm one of these
insane people that likes to swim in Wellington Harbor, I'd
see if they had their togs with them and they
wanted to pop to you know, be at Freyburg Beach
or Scorching Bay or Island Bay, depending where the wind's
coming from and get into the refreshing waters. I honestly
(30:59):
can't believe that you can be in Wellington, CBD and
you know, five minutes pop on your togs and have
a swim.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Well, you wouldn't want to do it today, would you today?
I know you've done it today. But you take some
friends with special friends, you pick you up the airport
and ask them for a swim, They're going to not
be your friend.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
That's a short friendship.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
Yeah, it's a very short. Thank you both for coming
in and taking the time out. It's great to have
prominent Valentonians in here giving us their view on stuff
for our business panel sky Stadium chief executive war At
Denton to Buffer's marketing and Communications director Kate clamp camp Camp.
I was going to do it again, wasn't it. Thank
you both very much, have a great afternoon.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Said b.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Your inside word on all things business in the Capitol
with Quinovac, better Systems, better reporting, better call, quinnobec oh
eight hundred, quinovec.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Let's get down. Let's get down, characters, you've had a
million million nights just like.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Joining us for the business panel this week is Sky
Stadium Chief Executive Warrck Dean. Good morning, Warrant, Good things.
How are you doing? You're good? Got over the All
Black game and got over all that stuff. You're on
a hide into nothing, will you? You've got a bit
of a bad rip with the All Black. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, I think the mat we would like them to
have better performances at Sky's Stadium. It would be nice
to have a win, but no, it was a great
night for those who did come out and a really
good match. And I think it just shows the competitiveness
of world rugby and the fact that Argentina perhaps didn't
get the kind of crab we wanted. But they are
a really good time, really good team. Yeah, and it
was a great game of rugby. You're right in the
(01:10):
stadium is fantastic. We can hardly blame the stadium if
the All Blacks can't make their tackles or make bad passes,
can we? And to Papa's marketing and communications director Kate Clam, Good.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Morning, Kate.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Nice to see you.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
You're in the newser bit at the moment too.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
Yeah. Well, we introduced a charge for our overseas visitors.
Our keywi's come for free, but we introduced a charge
last week. We announced it and it's been really interesting
to see the feedback.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Okay, we'll talk about that later in the in the hour.
You've also now to Papa that is you're not you personally,
but you'll be part of the team looking after Taquina
and the first reports that came out of Taquina. I
think this last time I saw you, was it opening
a Tikeina, wasn't it?
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Yeah, the numbers aren't as good as what we expected.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
Well, I think we hit the budget and the levels
that we were expecting in that first year in operation.
I mean it is a bit of an unknown. We're
only the second convention center to open a New Zealand
on time and on budget. Hastened to add not not
cast andy aspersions on any other projects, but that was
quite quite a whin I think for Wellington, and you know,
we've had some huge meetings in there, getting a good
client base and good customer feedback. So from our perspective,
(02:18):
it is going well. I think what we're all seeing
is that the world has changed a lot in the
last five years, and the environment for conventions has changed,
like the environment for a lot of things has.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Okay, let's start this segment talking about international tourism. Waurick,
I want to start by asking you about tourism. We
learned last week that the international tourism numbers are still
down about seventeen percent on pre COVID levels, and it's
probably more important than Wellington than ever tourism, that is
because of local spending. It stills down. It's still down.
(02:50):
How important is tourism to Wellington And when do you
think it's going to recover? What's your vibe? I mean
you've got a background in getting people to Welling and
so people you know more than most. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think international tourism is important to the whole country.
It's still our second biggest sexport driver. It's important to Wellington.
I think if you look at air capacity is still
down by about fifteen fourteen percent on what it was
pre COVID, so as that increases the capacity to get
tourists will be here. I think one of the markets
that hasn't bounced back as quickly as others is obviously China.
(03:21):
I think it's running at fifty to fifty five percent
of what it was, and over time that market will
come back. There are some positive signs. I think if
you look at for Wellington in particular with Quantus with
his introduction of the Brisbane route, it's increased capacity with
Melbourne over summer. So I think over time we will
see those air capacities increase and hopefully we'll see does
it surprise you that Quantus are now bringing more international
(03:43):
people into Wellington than Air New Zealk I think given
the importance of the Australian market to Wellington and New Zealand,
and Quantus is the dominant airline in Australia. I mean
their customer base in Australia is enormous, so I think
it's really important for us to connect with Quantus. I
think they are a really good airline for Wellington and
for New Zealand because they do drive Australians here.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
So coming to you. Okay, what a Wellington draw, Wellington event,
places like yourself, to Papa or places that tourists go to.
What do they have to do more now to attract
the numbers and what are the numbers like it to Papa?
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Well, the numbers over the last year at to Papa
have actually been really good. We were up twelve percent
on the previous financial year, in a bit higher than
forecast and so we had one point two three million
over the previous financial years, so you know, it's really
really good numbers. Half of those are internationals. I think
we did see a little bit of a soft month
over June July period over winter here, and yeah, it's
(04:40):
interesting to explore what that is. You could see nationwide tourism,
domestic tourism card spending was a little bit down. You know.
I think there's the factors that we're all aware of
that are probably impacting on people being a bit more
careful with how they spend their discretionary leisure money. So
I would say the year picture was actually pretty rosy
for us, but we can see some little impacts over
(05:02):
this winter and then in terms of what we can
do to attract people. I mean, I sort of feel
a little bit torn because to Papa is incredibly fortunate
in the brand awareness and love that we have. Like
we do it annual survey within New Zealand and quite
often new people come into the survey company and they
say to us, O, sorry, we've had to rerun your
numbers because there's obviously something wrong with the data because
(05:24):
it shows such incredible high brand awareness and love for
you of like Coca Cola type levels. You know, this
is crazy and it's just that, you know, New Zealand
embraced to Papa when it opened and it's still got
that high awareness. So we have like ninety one percent
awareness of to Papa when you survey in New Zealanders.
So you know, in terms of attracting people, I think
(05:44):
for us, it's just telling the story of what's there
and what's there for free for those kiwis. In terms
of attracting the international visitors, that's going to be a
really cool new opportunity for us with the charger. Our
feedback from Tourism New Zealand for example, and Tourism Industry
Association is they think that we have the potential not
only to maintain that international but to grow it because
(06:04):
once you've got a ticketed, that becomes something that's on
all those ticketed planning sites that people are going to
when they're planning their travel. You know, your trip advisors
and your equivalents of that in Asia and so on.
So we actually think that by implementing a charge, it
might sound counterintuitive, but we think it might actually help
increase that international market.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Warwick looking at us internally, looking at our domestic tourism.
See I classify an all black game as the Mets
domestic tourism. I mean, like you, I've got a lot
of experience in doing events in the city when there's
big draw cards and a lot of those people come
from out of town. The fact that Wellington's sort of
losing its shine of bit and it is we've got
(06:48):
to be do you reckon that hurts you? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I still think that events are a good driver of
domestic visitation for Wellington and they have been for a
long time. If you look at ticket sale data across
not only at the stadium but other venues across the city. No,
there's always strong visitation from outside of Wellington.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Was there for the Argentina test it was? There was
still some that was down a little bit.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I think it probably showed a little bit that other
parts of the country are hurting a little bit as well,
especially that drive range sort of Taalpo South. That probably
down a little bit on what you'd normally expect now, because.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
That's what I was trying to get at. I mean,
that was the big you know, well, this is how
good would it be to have a weekend in Wellington.
They've got all these bars and clubs and stuff all
down Courtney Place. I can go to the All Black
game on Saturday. This is a big attraction. But if
you start dwindling that down, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I think if you look at Argentina versus or the
All Blacks, you know, over time around twenty five thousand
is the average crowd that that fixture is attracted across
the country. So the numbers were actually probably on par
with what they have been pre We just expected more.
I think, no, we always put something on you expect
it to sell out. There's an expectation that the All
Blacks sell out. It's always not quite reality. I think
(07:57):
when we look at September with the Blislow Cup, that
last week in September, I think, no, a full stadium
for that is the opening weekend of well It's going
to be a eaight weekend for Wellington and it will
both both those events, both the Blood'slow Cup and Well
will attract visitors.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Do we know how well Well? That sounds a bit weird.
Do we know how well well Well is selling? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I speaking to their CEO a couple of weeks ago,
they're quite happy with with our with ticket sales. It's
selling pretty well, especially that opening weekend. The weekends do
are the ones that drive that visitation and then the
weekday is more Wellington visit Wellington audience. But they're quite
happy with where they're at. All back tickets are tracking
well for the Blood's Low Cup. So yeah, I think
whilst we'd love to have a full statium every time,
(08:39):
if we look at what happened with the Phoenix semi
final with thirty two thousand there, I think no people
are coming to things. They've probably been a little bit
selective about what they are coming to. But to your
point in the Hurricanes and the Hurricanes is really good.
So but to your point that events are that conversion layer.
Now you talk about brand A winners is really high.
It's that conversion layer to get new Zella's to go. Actually,
(09:01):
I'm going to go to Wellington for the weekend. I'm
going to enjoy everything Wellington's got. I'm going to throw
an event in as well. And the event experience here
is still really good. Our venues are in the middle
of town, accommodations in the middletown. We have got great
restaurants and bars. So in terms of an experience for people,
it's a good weekend and we'd expect to see that
whilst the economy is it's hard work for people at
(09:22):
the moment and they are being a little bit selective
about their spend. We think in the medium term and
long term that events will play an important part for
domestic tourism.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Kate, I've got to go to a break, but I
just want to quickly ask you, what do you think
we need to do to get that sort of domestic
tourism back up? Making Wellington the place that used to
be like the coffee. You know, it used to be everything,
didn't it, Papa, the stadium, coffee, food, it was everything.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
Yeah. I think that it's still there, it's still buzzing.
I think that just the patterns have changed. A little bit.
Maybe it's your Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, that's the party night
now because of the more people working from home. I
don't know. I'm stead of torn between wanting to make
changes but also thinking I never want to talk Wellington down,
and to me, Wellington is still really he placed to
go out on well I.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Hope you're right, it doesn't quite feel like that. You
both both must realize that you both work in the
middle of town. You wander through town. You know it
doesn't have the buzz of three or four ye pre
covid does it.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
No, But it's not necessarily just a Wellington issue. No,
it's a worldwide issue for cities, and those patterns are changing,
and I think we just need to be able to adapt.
Still have no great attractions and to Papa is still
in New Zealand's number one tourism destination, both for domestic
tourism and international tourism. Keep driving those events and keep
investing in things that we know that we'll drive people
(10:40):
to the CBD now and get the buzz back by
talking it up. So we should be doing more to
talk it up. Let's talk a little bit about the economy. Generally,
things are still pretty painful in Wellington, but the ocr
was cut by twenty four five basis points last week,
marking the beginning of the long awaited relief. It feels
like it was just everyone just went just a sigh
(11:03):
of relief. Kate, what do you think this does for business?
What do you think this does? Does it give you hope?
Does it change perceptions of people's mind?
Speaker 5 (11:14):
It was a little bit of a tricky one from
it to PAPA perspective, because of course we're a free venue,
so a lot of our visitors are possibly choosing us
at other times when maybe the financial pressure is on,
So it's a little bit light with t Papa. People
come if the weather's bad, they also come off the
weather's good to get out of the sun. So so
for us, it's kind of we're in a mixed bag,
(11:34):
offering some paid experiences but a lot of free experiences.
So I'm not sure our our take on what the
impact on the markets would be the same as as
everyone else out there. But I do think, you know,
when I look back to the pre COVID period and
everything that we've been through, I feel like New Zealand
has recovered probably a lot better than we thought we
(11:54):
were going to you know, when we look at that
seventeen percent down on international tourists since before COVID, I mean, god,
there was a time there in the middle of that
where I thought that would have been fifty percent down
or you know, will people ever be coming to New
Zealand again? So, without wanting to be too polyanna about it,
I feel like, you know, perhaps we should give ourselves
a little bit more credit for having come through things
(12:15):
tourism wise and actually pretty good.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Shame what about people that you work with. I mean,
obviously it's a pretty big organization. There'll be a lot
of people that are working with you that are doing
it a little bit tougher with paying a couple of
hundred or three hundred dollars more a week in their mortgages.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Oh absolutely, And you know we all know. I mean,
I'm a communications person worked in Wellington my whole career,
so I've got a lot and a lot of friends
in the public sector communications world. And of course that
always rolls that people enjoy cutting when changes come to
government departments. So yeah, you know, it's not an easy
time for people. I think that you know, that's reflected
(12:51):
in the spending patterns, and people are making careful choices
about what they spend their money on, especially that you know,
when they've got a choice, Like Warwick was saying, you know,
maybe it's the travel, Maybe the petrols a little bit
too much to drive down from Pami to Wellington for
something that you might have done before.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
So yeah, it's not easy, you warrick. This affects your
bottom line straight away, because you know Kate's exactly right.
Would are you going to go to the rugby on
Friday night and watch the lines or you're going to
watch it at home because you don't want to spend
the fifty dollars or the eighty dollars. I mean, it's
right off your bottom line, isn't it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I think that that sigh of relief that the OCR
has finally been cut is real. I'm not sure it's
going to have an immediate impact on spending patterns, but
if we see that continue over the next few Reserve
Bank meetings and there is a continued drop in the
OCR and that then actually impacts people's you know, what's
actually in their wallet.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
It doesn't do it mentally, doesn't it do it? Mentally?
You say suddenly you know, I mean TV wandered this
great segment where it dropped twenty five points, and you
have a five hundred thousand dollars mortgage, which is like
at the lower end of average. You suddenly got seventy
five dollars in your back pocket. That's a couple to
the rugby on Friday night. Yeah, and they all have
that impact.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And I think we're sort of looking at it from
our perspective selling tickets over the next twelve months, that
it is going to get easy to sell those tickets
because people will have that discretionary spend. At the moment,
people's discrisinary spend is really really tight. But you're right,
just that feeling that actually we might have reached name,
that we might have reached the place where we're actually
going to start actually seeing improvements is really important just
(14:28):
from a confidence point of view, from business confidence, for
individual's confidence to think, okay, we've got through that. We
continue to see rate cuts, we see that reflected in
our mortgage. For a lot of people in particular, then
you will have more discretionary income and then you can
start looking at events or going out for dinner or
going to a bar and actually think, actually, yeah, I'm
actually going to treat myself. I'm going to do that.
(14:49):
We're going to go to the rugby or we're going
to go to the football. We're going to go to
a gallery. We're going to go out for dinner, which
we haven't done for a while because we've been a
bit of tight on money. I think we will see
that come, especially if you start looking at summer, which
is always an uplift for hospitality. I'm sure hospitality businesses
are looking forward to summer potentially people having a more money.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
And I think we're also looking forward to, like to
Papa and Sky Stadium being full, you know, because we
feed off that. Hospitality in Wellington feeds off the stadium
being full and lots of people going to Tapapa and
then wandering out from to Papa and wandering down the
road and having lunch or going somewhere and staying somewhere
doing stuff. So I think that we're I think we're
(15:27):
all in it together as a city, aren't we. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:30):
And I mean we had our Dinosaurs exhibition over last summer,
you know, that was that was a big blockbuster. That
was our first big sort of family show since in
the post COVID era and that did you know one
hundred thousand plus visitors, which is really really good in
the current environment. So yeah, we know that those major events,
you know, to PAPA style, which is these blockbuster shows
that we can bring in that no one else can do.
(15:51):
We know that they are so good for Wellington. I
mean we did a we got Burl to do some
independent analysis on what Tapapa's contribution is to the Wellington
economy and prior to COVID it was three h four
million average GDP into the Wellington economy from to pup us.
So you know, our visitor numbers have ticked back up
close to where they were before COVID, so I'd say
(16:12):
that contribution is in the same territory. So you know,
there's not that many single destinations in New Zealand that
can claim that kind of impact on our bottom line.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
And also, I mean from a hospitality point of view,
full house at sky Stadium always means that you're going
to have a decent night, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And we're really mindful of that. I mean, we're out
there in the market trying to attract events and then
that's partly that is our bottom line. But we're also
pity rock concerts coming up. We're working on them. Yeah,
so there is there's a potential. We've got potential concerts
in the pipeline at the moment. Again, not going to
lead it out, not going to leak it out, no, no,
but when they come you were the first to know.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Nick.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Thanks, But but we do know that. I mean ACDC
and stuff like that's big for the city, huge for
the city. Anything that flew in and you saw it
with the food fighters this year, you saw it with
the Edge here in last year, those big concerts. Again,
it's a confidence things. But you bring thirty forty forty
five thousand people into the CBD, everyone benefits from it.
And we're conscious have been a good part of the community.
(17:11):
We know that businesses around the community succeed off the
back of events and us bringing people in and that
is very we're very aware of that when we're out
there trying to bring events into Wellington. I want to
sort of hone down on you a little bit on
this one, Cake because obviously you've been in the media.
We've talked about this enough on the show. We actually
(17:32):
talked about it three or four months ago and then
talked about it again last week when you actually made
the announcement to Papa is actually going to start charging
thirty five dollars for international visitors based on a trust model, Kate,
Why did Papa decide to go ahead with us?
Speaker 5 (17:49):
We've considered it quite a few times over the years,
and people in Wellington will know that it's been looked
at before. I think that you know, everything that we've
just been talking about about the cost pressures on everyone
very much applied to Papa. You know, the last time
you opened your gas bill and your power bill and
your insurance bill. Then times that by building the size
of six rugby fields, and you'll know that to Papa's
(18:09):
facing those increasing costs.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Isn't it paid for by our tax by it.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
We're partly funded by government, so we get forty four
million from government a year. We raise at least thirty
million a year from our own commercial revenue. So it's
always been like that since to Papa opened. It was
expected to be financially and commercially positive as an organization
and we're really proud that we're able to do that,
and that's something that you know, this is another part
(18:34):
of that kind of practical decision. I mean, being free
for New Zealanders is bottom line for us. We've always
been free for New Zealanders. We always will be and
so that leaves us with, you know, some options to consider,
and this is one that we decided the time was right.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
Did you get the call from the new government, the
cardiss And government saying hey, look you're going to start
to look farther ways to raise money. We're not. We're
going to have make cupbacks and we're going to cut
back to does that part of it as well?
Speaker 5 (19:00):
This is very much driven by us. It wasn't driven
externally at all. And in fact Papa didn't have any
reduction in its government funding in the last budget, unlike
a lot of organizations. So this is something that you know,
we've looked at our future and future proof in the
museum and thinking how can we keep creating those experiences
like I was at to papaween Gallipoli opened and that
(19:21):
was an absolute game changer in terms of exhibitions. It's
had over four million visitors. You know, soon the whole
population of New Zealand will have been through it. And
you know, you can't create those amazing experiences. You can't
look after those two million plus collection objects without money.
And that's you know, a simple equation of needing to
do the things that we do for New Zealand and
(19:42):
keep it free for Kiwis because you know, like you say,
they already own it. It's it's their museum, it's their collections.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Will will the numbers drop? Do you think?
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Well, it's really interesting. I mean, we have modeled lots
of different scenarios, but in the end it's a little
bit of a guessing game, isn't it. You know, when
you're going from not charging to charging. But the feedback
that we've had from Tourism New Zealand, the research that
we've done, the feedback from the tourism industry is that
it has the potential actually to grow our international visitor
(20:12):
base and we are pretty optimistic that we'll be able
to maintain it. You know, to Papa is the number
one tourist attraction in New Zealand for internationals. Their satisfaction
is through the roof. Ninety eight percent of them are
satisfied with their visit to Papa. You know, the other
two probably got a cold latte or something in the cafe.
But you know, it's a pretty astronomical levels of satisfaction.
(20:32):
And when you think about that international visitor, this is
a trip of a lifetime. They've come, you know, to
New Zealand. They're here for two or three weeks. They're
spending thousands and thousands of dollars on amazing experiences, whether
they're you know, on the Shotover Jet or they're you know,
going to Hobbiton or whatever. So I think when they
rock up to the doors of the number one attraction
and find that it's thirty five New Zealand dollars, I
(20:53):
don't think that's going to be an issue for them
at all.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Right, Warwick, I've got a center on you. I mean,
we've talked about the disappointment of not selling out the
Test match. There you're talking about concerts. We've got nothing
on the box right now, have we. We've got no big,
big deals coming up. We've got the summer without a
rock concert or a concert, have we all have? I
showing my ignorance here.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
No, we haven't got anything announced and we're continuing to
work very closely with a couple of promoters. There's still
our opportunities for summer. It does seem a short lead time,
But that's probably a change in the dynamic around international touring.
And there was a concert announced in Auckland not that
long ago, that's happening in October. We're confident that we'll
get one or two concerts this summer. We know the
(21:35):
promoters are confident that they'll get it across the line.
It's just a matter of confirming things with artists and
getting those on sale.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Can I just ask you has it become more difficult
trying to sell Wellington as a venue than it was,
say five years ago. Five years ago you put something
on at the sky Stadium and you know you're going
to fill it up. Now the world's shaped, the world's changed.
I'm not putting my attention on you guys, But has
the Wellington appeal dropped.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
No.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
We still gave a really good proportion of people that
go to events and go specially music, The theater, the
arts in Wellington is really really strong and you find
if you put the right event on, people will buy tickets.
It's getting harder for promoters in terms of international touring there,
and we've talked about costs. Costs are prohibitive for people
(22:23):
touring and then you see these mega artists you see
Taylor Swift, they suck a lot of money out of
the market, incrediable when they happen, but that's a lot
of money that's been spent on one artist that perhaps
other artists won't quite get the same pickup. I think
what we will see is for the right event, people
will come out and spend. And I think music is
something that people are still spending on and at a
(22:45):
lower level or smaller level, not lower, a smaller level.
Some of the concerts that have come through the other
venues in Wellington recently have sold really really well, really strong,
and they continue to have a lot of content coming
through and I think music will continue. I think from
Wellington's perspective, we are up with the challenge of Auckland
is a big market. It's easy for promoters to Auckland.
(23:08):
We always got to fight a little bit harder. But
we believe that we've got a great customer base both
here but also we service the lower North Island and
the top of the South Island and that's over a
million people. So in terms of actually scale, we've got
a good sized audience that we can drive and we
do believe that we're still a good market for concerts.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Right the number of passengers on our trains are down
twenty five percent than what they were in twenty nineteen,
with much of it been blamed on the increase. I'm
working from home Warwick. I get so many calls every
time you have a sporting event on or you have
something on and we find that the trains are out
and the buses are being used. Do you have a
(23:49):
good as CEO of the stadium. Do you have a
good relationship with the trains? Do we have a problem
with our trains.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I think the trains are great and I think trendsitive
and Metlink to a really good job operating the trains.
I think there's challenges with the train service at the
moment around the work that needs to be done on
the infrastructure on the rails, and that's just the reality
is that work needs to be done and it tends
to get done on weekends and long weekends. We work
really closely with Metlink to identify those bigger events where
(24:17):
we know that we're going to need the train capacity
and then how we then work with them to make
sure that when we really really need it, the trains
are on. So the all access is a good example.
The trains are fully running the Phoenix Semi Final. If
we have concerts, we work with them.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
I think I quite often get with those events that
you don't have the trains running, nothing to do with you,
But I get it. I mean, I know on the
show every time there'll be ten texts people saying, well,
you know I'm going to I've paid money to go
to this event. I want to get on the train,
get off the train. I don't want to be on
a bus. Yeah, And it is a challenge.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
It is a challenge for everybody.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
I think the work.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Needs to be done and we recognize that. I think
what we do have the advantage of with the stadium
is that the integration with public transport is really really good,
whether it is the bus, the bus hub or the
train station. While we would love trains for all our events,
I think at the moment we are working with the
stake older to make sure that we have trains when
we have those larger events, and sometimes for the smaller events.
(25:11):
You know, there needs to be work on the on
the lines and we can't. We can't get away from that.
I think, no, we can't do work during rush hour.
We can't do it during the week because of commuter
So it's just a matter of making sure that we
try and have trains available when we really need them.
We'd love them all the time, but we're realistic that
this work to be done over the next few years.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
And Kate, you talked about that family experience where they
can come in for free and come in and as
a day trip and come in. I know from my
own experience a lot of that is on the train.
You catch a train into town, walk down to to
Papa along the waterfront. How wonderful, how magnificent. But oh,
by the way, the trains aren't running, you're catching a bus.
The family say, h do that's not that's that's only
(25:50):
half the experience. So it must affect to Papa as well.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
I mean, I absolutely love the trains and are saying
to work before. You know, it's great to be at
the stadium, but it's also great to leave the stadium
and that sense of integration. It's like finally something in
New Zealand that actually works and we've got it right.
You're out of the stadium or the good vibes and
then you're on your train and off you go, say
when it's working, it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
And yes, you said when it's working.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
Yeah, no one ever wants to hear the words replaced
by a bus, and no one ever wants to hear
the words your bus isn't arriving. So you know, it's
a hard it's a hard job being the people in
charge of public transport.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Can they do a bit? I feel for them.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
Oh, I'm sure we can probably all do everything better.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
But I don't know.
Speaker 5 (26:30):
I always feel like in New Zealand we have this
thing of like, oh, this is ridiculous. I've been to
London and train comes every two minutes. I've been to
Sydney and you know, I've been to Melbourne. I've got
a train. Well, there's millions of people living in those cities,
you know.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
We but surely if it's advertised as being a train,
the train should run.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
But we forget that. We are still a pretty small
country with not a huge tax base, trying to support
this infrastructure on a very long, skinny nation. So I
think that, you know, there are reasons why the public
transport in New Zealand isn't quite up to the standard
that it is in you know, Berlin, London and Paris.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Okay, that segueys me very nicely to congestion charging. What
do you both think about congestion talking about London's Paris
and Melbourne. I don't think they've got congestion charging in Melbourne.
Don't think it's far away. I mean it's going to come. Kate,
what are you thinking about congestion charging?
Speaker 5 (27:15):
Well, I am a fan of making the city walkable
and making it bikeable and easy to get around. I
don't know enough about congestion charging and how it would
work to really have a very well thought through view,
But I mean, so much has changed in the city.
I hate to be one of those old people, but
you know, I grew up in Wellington and so much
has changed in the way that we use the city.
(27:36):
City used to be completely dead on the weekend.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
You never came into the city. I mean, I don't know.
I'm not going to try and guess your age, but
when I was young, living in the suburbs, you only
came into Wellington maybe twice a year to a movie
or to an event.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
I came in all the time. I'd get on the
chain from Candala on the javel line come and go
chat up some boys at the pie cart and then
you'd walk up, you know, all the way from there
up to Willis Street to Susie's Coffee lounge. There was
nothing open in between, was absolutely dead. The weekdays were busy,
but the weekends were really quiet, and then it flipped around.
The weekends were always really busy and possible to find
a park, you know. So I think the patterns of
(28:09):
use in Wellington have changed so much that congestion charging
would have to have to think about that. I mean,
the congestion down and the CBD doesn't seem to be
too bad in terms of the found the ghost town
that's there, and yet the parking seems to be really full.
I wonder are more people bring in their car into
town because they're working from home a few days and
they think, oh, it's a bit more affordable to bring
(28:29):
the car. I don't know, other transport people will have
the facts Warwick.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
It won't affect you too much. I've got to go
to a break because it will be only at the
certain times and your events won't be at those certain times. Well,
it'll be at five o'clock at night and eight o'clock
in the morning type thing.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah, and I think. I think if you look at
those examples overseas, whether it's Stockholm or London, what's what's
made congestion charging successful is the provision of really good
public transport. So if we can make sure that the
bus network and the train network is working, it will
work for everyone and we'll see it. We'll see that
change in transport mode. And that's probably the real key
to it is how we make sure that we've got
(29:02):
alternative ways of getting into the CBD.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
Still, Yeah, that's the key, right, Warwick. I'm going to
start with you. You've got a very special guest that's
never been to Wellington before, but as someone that really
means a lot to you, someone who you've got real
deep connection to. You picked them up at Wellington Airport,
say let's go eleven o'clock in the morning. What are
you going to do with them?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah. A lot of my family lives overseas, so I've
actually had this in reality, which is good. So I'll
draw back on a bit of experience. I think No,
getting onto the waterfront, I think no, the harbor of
Wellington has actually something really special. So whether that's the
drive around Evans Bay, but even a walk down the waterfront.
As an international visitor, I think to Papa is really
special and I think I'd hate to think what Wellington
(29:44):
would be without Tapapa. So everyone I've had in the
city loves it, loves loves to paper. Taten's to paper.
You can wander around the streets, go up Cuba Street,
enjoy a bit of shopping, cafe. But the other bit
that I always find with the national visitors is actually
getting over to the wire apper and having a nice
lunch at a vineyard over there. And it's just the
(30:04):
fact that you've got a compact CB two, you've got
a harbor, but you've got really accessible amazing. It just
so that the region's got a lot to offer. Yeah, perfect,
it's a perfect pickup. Come on, Kate, tell me what
you're gonna do.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Well.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
When I leave the airport, I like to go out
the back way out more points, sneak through there and
take them around to Maranui Cafe at Lyle Bay. You know,
it's absolutely stunning. I love the food there, but also
how many places can you eat in a cafe that
looks out right onto the water like that with all
the surfers with planes flying and above, and then obviously
I'm going to bring them to Tipapa. They have to
see everything that's there. Take them into the shop because
(30:38):
you know they can buy lots of amazing New Zealand
artworks in there, and that's something people love to take home.
And then for me personally, because I'm one of these
insane people that likes to swim in Wellington Harbor, I'd
see if they had their togs with them and they
wanted to pop to you know, be at Freyburg Beach
or Scorching Bay or Island Bay, depending where the wind's
coming from and get into the refreshing waters. I honestly
(30:59):
can't believe that you can be in Wellington, CBD and
you know, five minutes pop on your togs and have
a swim.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Well, you wouldn't want to do it today, would you today?
I know you've done it today. But you take some
friends with special friends, you pick you up the airport
and ask them for a swim, They're going to not
be your friend.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
That's a short friendship.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
Yeah, it's a very short. Thank you both for coming
in and taking the time out. It's great to have
prominent Valentonians in here giving us their view on stuff
for our business panel sky Stadium chief executive war At
Denton to Buffer's marketing and Communications director Kate clamp camp Camp.
I was going to do it again, wasn't it. Thank
you both very much, have a great afternoon.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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